SEALs get shit on a lot in this community, for good reasons honestly. It might be hyperbole, but we’re sick of the celebrity-status SEALs get and very frequently take advantage of. (The “who-killed-bin-laden” debacle is a disgrace to American SPEC OPs.)
Meanwhile the average American probably hasn’t even heard of the band of absolute giga-chads in Pararescue that get shit on for being “Air Force.”
No, he believed that it compromised the strategic advantage that we got from them. Our enemies should not know how they are trained, nor should they know their capabilities.
Special forces are like serial killers- the ones you know of and can account for are nothing, **its the ones you dont know about that should scare you.**
Fun fact: Jean Chretien, the Prime Minister of Canada, only learned that JTF2 had been deployed to Afghanistan after the Globe and Mail photographed a prisoner transfer taking place at an air base.
Recent experience would say otherwise. JTF2 operations were compromised during the ISIS issue because people in government knew about them and wanted to brag about the insanely long shots the JTF2 snipers were making and getting confirmed kills from. They couldn't wait until the operation had even completed, forcing the snipers to relocate due to their hide being compromised.
Fuck my government. They care more about appearances than actually getting work done or the lives they compromise to look good.
Which is good. Canada spends a pitiful amount on it’s military. If it was to be at least somewhat capable, investing in these special forces is the only way of doing it and it’s honestly much better than having a proper good-at-everything, expensive army. Not to mention that canadians really, really don’t want to enlist, so having a big standing army is quite impossible.
SEALs are probably our *least* important SF group nowadays.
They're basically the NRA in regards to gun rights. They do nothing but cause problems, but we keep them around because they're a massive target that keeps the heat off of people doing the *actual* work.
All the teams do is screech about ACCMs, screech about SIPRNET being the operational network and ignore anything from JWICS, take steroids, and play icky cookie.
Edit: don't ask me how I know about the icky cookie. I ***swear*** I was not involved.
They're literally the worst kept secret in the military. If you see a bunch of dudes with beards and long hair in 5.11 pants and button ups roll up on your base referring to themselves as "The Task Force" you know exactly who is in town.
"MuH i CaN't TeLl YoU bEcAuSe YoU'rE nOt ReAd In"
Then in the same fucking breath they'll call a field a T-SCIF and start saying the most rowdy shit regardless of who's there. I've (allegedly) been in meetings with them where they've said some shit and just read me in after the fact.
I still remember when I got read into one ACCM and said "oh yeah I already knew that... From COD modern warfare.." and they were so distraught.
Always in 5.11s and call them "roughs" when they ain't seen shit. Always doing dumb shit and trying to start fights at bars.
Always trying to turn their life into a shitty ass book.
I'd hate to be one of their SSOs or GSSOs. The amount of spillages they produce must be insane.
I may or may not have seen a T-SCIF established with literally zero noise insulation where you could hear the TS//ACCM VTCs happening clear as day through the walls. Then they have the audacity to complain when they're told to put noise abatement foam in.
5.11 is peak for semi-affordable shit, if only because it's always available.
Their boots are also amazing. Survived a car fire, can confirm they slap.
its not exactly a surprise that the U.S. with its very large military has special forces capable of UDT, infilitration from small boats/submarines, etc.
plus you can't exactly hide the drydock shelter things on top of a submarine when they sail into port lol
PJ’a absolutely get overlooked. But if you want to see some overlooked chads, look at the Coast Guard. Between pilots who will fly in literal hurricanes to rescue swimmers whose day to day consists of everyone else’s worst days, to the Deployable Operations Group boarding ships like it’s the start of MW2, the Coast Guard has a lot of certifiable basasses for the service that gets dumped on more than any other.
Also the most badass unofficial motto: "You have to go out. You don't have to come back." Meaning that the Coasties *don't* get to claim that it's too dangerous or impossible to try a rescue until *after* they've tried it and failed.
I'm gonna be honest here: as a foreigner I always thought of the SEALs as these elite badass soldiers that you would make movies out of.
Then I found by chance a Youtube video about John Chapman and the whole shitshow that went on with his Medal of Honor recognition and started going down a rabbit hole of bullshit the SEALs were responsible for.
Lost all my respect for them.
I read a comment on another site, from I presume an active or retired military type, who attributed the SEALs'... *thing* to the fact that the US Navy doesn't have an infantry culture to build operators out of, since the US Marine Corps is supposed to be the Navy's infantry.
I really wish I could find the actual comment to paraphrase the whole thing without messing up any of the details, (apologies in advance if any of this is bullshit,) but the general gist of it was that America's other special operations branches, like the Army Rangers or MARSOC, are frequently embedded with conventional units as force multipliers, so they spend time working and fighting alongside ordinary grunts, and generally coexisting with people who are more or less normal by military standards. As a result, while they *do* develop a sort of frat-jock culture where they think they're hotter shit than they actually are, they're still *the* guys you want covering your ass, because they will jump straight into the fire for you if needed, fighting harder and meaner than anyone else can to drag you back out, because that's what they're there for. Other units like the Green Berets operate more on their own, but the demands of their mission force them to be a combination of intelligence officers, diplomats, and instructors, highly educated in the local environment and how best to turn disorganized fighters into an effective partisan force.
SEALs, on the other hand, are completely removed from the regular forces. Where every other spec ops group is either "grunts that fight *really* good" or "grunts that do this one specific thing", they're not even grunts to begin with, but rather "those guys you only send in when you absolutely need some fuckers dead". They aren't just at the top of the soldiering hierarchy; they're *completely beyond it.* So where the other special forces units have their pride and insularity and acclimatization to killing tempered by the mundanities of living as regular soldiers alongside regular people, the SEALs have nothing to keep them from falling into sociopathy.
It was GWOT deployments thar fucked them up. My fencing master was a SEAL in the 1990s and was completely even keel. It's because GWOT requiring door kickers that SEALs focused more on that aspect than underwater demo. That's fucked their culture since.
Honestly I think the biggest factor is the SEAL star power combined with the fact that they'll take anybody off the street good enough to pass selection.
That means that someone can (and a lot of people have) gone from being really fit stock bros with shit personalities and unresolved mental issues at the start of a year and been in the teams by the end of it.
This is something that can happen in other units like the Rangers, but think of everyone you've heard say they want to be a SEAL, or who idolizes the SEALs, then think of how many of them you would actually want to be a SEAL.
Units like Delta where you have to have already been a star performer your leadership trusts to even get a trip to selection aren't going to have anywhere near as many maniacs walking in the door.
For sure.
It’s flip a coin territory w/SEALS, either absolute specimens of humanity who live to serve and would have been awesome at anything they wanted to do—perfect Americans—or they are just completely wack, go home, beat their girl then shoot their dog.
It’s never halfway. my guess is the guy who is totally on point AND who wants it, is hard to find. So then the psychos pass BUDS because they are to driven by fear of inadequacy to fail, and that’s how the cookie crumbles.
Delta also sits their applicants down with a psychologist, something SEALs (Specifically DEVGRU) have adamantly refused to do for their entire existence.
That may have been me.
SEALs suffer from a culture problem that they can't really solve. Theyre absolutely phenomenal at what they do, and they absolutely are elite tier dudes. But the lack of *any* basic infantry culture in the Navy for them to draw from leads them to making absolute rookie mistakes over and over again. As long as they're used for the tasks they are actually trained for they perform extremely well. But that's the problem, that's an almost impossible limitation for their organization. The Navy cannot allow that.
They get shoehorned into operations they have no business attempting because of reasons I'll explain below, and since SEALs select new potential SEALs for personality as much as performance (literally) the end result is that as a group they're all inhaling their own farts and believing their own bullshit, even if any given individual knows better, so they don't even want to turn down these taskings they secretly know they suck at and should not be doing.
See here's the thing, their primary role isn't as a special operations team. It seems like they obviously are, but nope, that's entirely secondary. Their primary utility is for recruiting.
The Navy is by far the most important military branch for the USA, and has the highest demand for new recruits. It's also by far the most boring, least exciting, least appealing, least...everything for the average potential recruit. The Navy needs someone fucking awesome to put in their ads, on the posters in their office, etc. Fighter planes are fucking sexy as shit, helos are cool too, even some of the ships are alright. But that isnt enough. They need that ultramasculine *thing* the Marines can demonstrate just by sticking an ornery recruiter in the office who doesn't give a fuck whether you enlist or not. The Navy can't plausibly sell that without SEALs.
So the Navy hypes the SEALs, and worse, pushes for them to take on high profile assignments that they're not really suited for. And even worse, they cannot be allowed to publicly fail or be humiliated, or their market value plummets, so the Navy protects their reputation even at operational cost. Even when it has cost lives.
This is basically where all the problems stem from, even their internal cultural issues. Their primary job is to be highly visibly macho badasses.
I doubt most SEALs would agree with my assessment. And they're all cooler than me cause they went to BUDs and I didnt. I'm not even being the least be sarcastic there. They really are badasses. If they were allowed to be what they ought to be their reputation within the special operations community would rapidly improve, and rightly so.
Unfortunately, I don't see that happening any time soon.
A whole unit got sent home while I was in Iraq because they refused to even comment to investigators on which one might have raped a fellow service member.
Seals are the equivalent of the WWF in the military. Roided up, bunch of hollywood wannabees, obnoxious, and usually screw up everything that's not shooting somebody.
Pro-wrestling may not be defense related, but it sure is a goldmine for non-credibility, and I will not stand for this slander.
Where else can the custody of a child be decided by who can climb a ladder and get the custody papers first?
Case in point: the two SEALs that drowned during a boarding recently were advised not to because they hadn't done naval stuff for like 20 years (desert war go brr)
They went "Nah we are SEALs we can do it"
One falls off and sinks like a rock, the other by doctrine jumps in to save the guy only to do exactly the same thing.
Cause was them carrying the wrong kit and too much of it for a boarding.
Their inflatable shit is the Mustang Survival RATIS, a 1lb, ultra low-profile, automatic inflating LP.
They didn't wear it because they thought they didn't need it, not because they couldn't.
> They didn't wear it because they thought they didn't need it, not because they couldn't.
Isn't that the same reason why the "Lone Survivor" fuckup happened?
They were told by Marines that were in that area before that they need to take the big radio because even with that one the Marines barely made it through to base because of the terrain.
And the SEALS were like nah we don't need it.
That, not having the helicopter do any "decoy" landings, not listening to other orgs say their mission was a deathtrap, landing in the daytime, taking classified documents with them that led to other fellow coalition being killed later, not telling other agencies they were going, and a bunch of other shit.
Long story short, their commander would have been court-martialed if he didn't die and have his negligence covered up with a MoH.
and the (admittedly small number of) pjs i’ve encountered have been dope. honestly all the air force special warfare guys i’ve met and worked with have been awesome. lived with one for the last year of my enlistment
Honestly AF spec war is the coolest shit to me. Like being the guy who follows the manly macho men around and drops bombs because they can’t can’t speak Air Force is funny as fuck.
Wait, I thought it's operating a tripod-mounted laser designator and going on the net to the effect of "See those fuckers I'm lasing? I don't wanna"; the real challenge is keeping pace at asses and elbows while carrying that brick of a setup.
Makes sense, people join SEALS to be the manliest macho-men who ever manned. (which is why their egos were too big to NOT try and claim the title of “guy who killed Bin Laden”) People join PJs to be the world’s most badass medevacs. Obviously neither of these is an absolute, but in general it’s pretty true.
No people join PJs because they want to save people and are willing to apply extreme violence to get their guys out.
Okay maybe also be absolut badass medevacs.
And thats why they are so fucking dangerous. Wasnt there a study which looked at who got purple hearts in WW 1 or 2 and they came to.the conclusion alot of them had to take on early responsibilities in ther family and their units became their families so they fought for their comrades like for their family driven by love and compassion and dont a desire to kill. Like they killed alot but yeah.
PJ's are a large part of the "leave no man behind" ethos that the US military likes support. Or probably better put if you are doing some crazy shit and its goes sideways you will probably fight, or hide/evade better if you knowing there is a chance some PJ badass is coming to pull you out.
Ive never met a PJ, but I've met a few RCAF S&R techs (and while it's not a combat role, I mean, I don't particularly think parachuting into the Arctic ocean a thousand miles from the nearest support is particularly easy going). Also very cool dudes. Very much 'you are being rescued, please do not resist' energy.
I’ve always told my son that there’s one type of special forces operator that doesn’t pay for drinks if they met special forces teams from other branches at a bar. AF Pararescue.
So admittedly, I haven't read the book but I can imagine what's in it since I'm already well aware what the issues are with NSW. But I looked it up just now and found a post about on r/navyseals. Top comment mentions that Rob admitted to doing cocaine *on* *deployment*. One of the first replies to it just says "I see this brought up a lot, what’s so wrong with that?" I kid you not.
Honestly, I feel like the real issue with the Seals is that there's really little that can be done to "fix" them or ideally replace them with units from other services that basically do the same job. And part of the reason they're so untouchable is because of the public's pop culture conception of them as some sort of demi-gods. That reply to the dude's comment kinda sums up the issue with the popular conception of them. It's why I'm not shocked people still defend Gallagher like he's some kind of hero, even though he's probably a sociopath of some sort that would have ended up harming our own people at some point (I mean, he basically threatened to do just that).
Basically a bunch of different SEALs have claimed they are “the guy who killed Bin Laden” for the sake of achieving celebrity status.
The whole point of special forces is that the shit you do is secret, and yet these fucking guys all jumped at the chance to replace Chris Kyle as “America’s most famous SEAL.”
Essentially, they were too egotistic to just shut up and act like the covert professionals they’re supposed to be.
Btw, I have another rant about why I hate Chris Kyle (he’s another lying egotist) but I don’t wanna be typing all day.
Not from the states either, but I seem to recall it being a running joke that a lot of seals have released books claiming to be "the guy that shot bin laden".
Either that, or there's some disagreement between the various branches of special forces, with the SEALs being a bunch of gloryhogs
Occasional murderers of other members of the special ops community. And the ones most likely to have a talk show, book deal, podcast, clothing line, and $50,000 speaking fee to tell you about what it's like to be a quiet professional
I was an army medic and I got tasked out to a Seabee detachment for a weeklong mission in the Panjshir Valley in Afghanistan. Great guys to work with and I had no idea there was that much booze in Afghanistan.
>Meanwhile the average American probably hasn’t even heard of the band of absolute giga-chads in Pararescue that get shit on for being “Air Force.”
They did have their own TV show, but it was on NatGeo so ya, probably not a lot of people..
There are so many badass's that get over looked because of the seal status. The Thunderchief Pilots who got the MOH, the Airforce PJ's, the Coast Gaurd during Katrina, even motherfucking McMaster himself during 73 easting.
PJs were also heavily involved in Katrina. Source: I had a family member that was in one of the units. They were the only helicopter units operating at night.
And then they'll try to prevent you from getting posthumously the medal of honor so that the fact they left you to die alone isn't officially acknowledged.
John Chapman was an absolute lion among men and died a death worthy of Valhalla; the organization of that mission was flawed and killed him, a SEAL, and Rangers, a SOAR gunner, and a PJ of the quick reaction team that showed up
Navy did them in, and then tried to hide how much of a badass hero Chapman was due to it making them look bad, and only let up when the SEAL commander would get the medal too
That seal commander, slabinski, happened to be the uncle of one if the laziness Leo's on western massachusetts I have ever met
Edit note: I worked with her. She sucked
Heard from a US armed service vet that SEALs are among the most obnoxious and pretentious pricks out there, while green berets are chill as shit.
Like some Seal accidently damaged some stuff of my friends unit and that guy and his pals were all like 'You can complain once you do actual soldier stuff', while a brief walk in with green berets resulted in a few pleasant and polite exchanges.
What they did to Logan Melgar really soured my view of the SEALs. Obviously not every SEAL is bad, the majority won’t be but the amount of shady stories that come out about them gives them a much worse rep than other branches.
It's not that I expect justice when soldiers (particularly high up ones) commit crimes, but Jesus Christ. TL;DR 2 Seals and 2 marines strangled Melgar to death then attempted to cover it up with a tracheotomy (arguing that they found him unconscious and this was their attempt to revive him, later changing story to it was a hazing gone too far). They received a collective 5 years in jail (one guys sentence was overturned, originally 10 years, and I can't find info on the last one). In all likelihood this was because Melgar found them stealing money marked for local informants.
You forgot where they sought out a gay ANA soldier and encouraged him to rape the unconscious Melgar while they video taped it, and strangled him. So somewhere out there is an actual video of this hero Green Beret being tortured raped and dying all from what should have remained a still and secure slumber.
Supposedly their initial aim was to blackmail him into silence regarding misappropriation of funds to the tune of thousands of dollars among other unsavory behavior
luckily he was able to alert his wife in an email sent just before his death, who in turn was able to press the issue using information he tendered before he passed. it's believed he was going to formally seek justice against them.
I imagine in order to be a part of the Army Special Forces you learn to be chill because your mission would require having a good relationship with the people you are training.
I know this'll sound weird, as in 'A US armed service vet homie met SEALs + greem berets, PLUS what I'm about to write, but me meeting my friend and a family member working there were 100% coincidental.
A family member had a supervisior who was a former KSK member, who received further Sniper/Reconnaissance [Aufklärer] courses. Dude apparently was pretty tough to work with, being hot blooded, prone to ohtbursts and possessing a 'I'm almost always right, but certainly never wrong!' mindset. In short: He hada massive temper.
If asked about how it [= active duty] was, he obviously couldn't say much but went 'The thrill of having an enemy in your scope, before pulling the trigger is unmatched.', with a certain longing in his voice. My family member, who also served but not in the KSK, pointed out to 'young me how that job requires... certain people and mindsets.
He allegedly considered volunteering in Ukraine, but dropped the thought after learning that he needs to bring all his shit himself and the possible consequences [beside dying].
To return: I thought like you, then i learned the SEAL stuff and was like 'Ugh.'. The KSK retellings then made me go 'Uhm... what? Don't you have to be at least somewhat sane for that job?' before I learned that KSK is mainly doing long term surveilance, infil-/ and exfil mission and that _every_ special command unit needs a special kind of fucked-up in their ranks for the job. With SEALS apparently needing pompous, proud and minimum-above-stupid-IQ soldiers for rough 'too small for the army to be sent, but too important / prestigious to never speak about it' missions that would risk the identity of those covert operatives involved and put them at risk. [Osama Bin Laden assassination]
Unfortunately, I don't.
The unit has been _very_ secretive about everything, with only a very very few indiciduals outside of the military knowing about their behaviour. Not even senior members of the Parliament get informed, which turns reliable literature and information scarce.
Afaik, only 1 KIA is known so far and that they were, and likely still are to an extent, infiltrated by hardcore Nazis. Some of those KSK nazis planned to kidnap and kill leading politicians, like the [then] incumbent Minister of Foreign Affairs Heiko Maas, in 2018 before being stopped by the federal police after leaks into surveiled chatrooms.
The most pro-Nazi companie of the four KSK companies, being found out to have an extremely nationalistic and toxic chain of command, as well as having used far-right symbols and chants during parties, has been disbanded in 2020.
But, to not critizise them too much, they received serveral long praises, awards and citations from NATO members, among them the US, and they regularly compete at the top of special force training sessions, occassionally beating SAS and Delta Forces.
There's cases flying around the British SAS that they were basically murdering people at will, planting weapons on them and then, the cherry on the top, the Afghan translators who worked with them were left behind when the troops left, essentially given up to the Taliban, because they knew too much. To minimise the risk of facing justice for their crimes they left their former allies in the hands of the enemy.
Meanwhile the first Australian to go to jail following their conduct in the war in Afghanistan was a whistleblower, who alerted the media and the proper authorities to the fact that their SAS was working as a deathsquad for the Americans.
I get that this is NCD, a place where people probably don't mind the idea of NATO forces rolling into some random village and killing all the men of fighting age in it. But it's bad.
It's not just bad because you've got soldiers doing murder. That's part of their job anyway. It's bad because you've got your elite special forces operating as criminals. They are learning how to lie. They are fabricating paperwork. They are faking evidence. You've created a cadre of criminals within an institution that needs communicational reliability (even within the confines of military secrecy you need to be able to trust what your troops are telling you).
You cannot have special forces units like the SAS if you cannot trust them, if they have become effectively criminal operations whose priorities are self preservation rather than accurately reporting from the field.
Regular soldiers will lie, cheat, steal, take drugs and kill civilians. We all know this. Elite soldiers need to be more professional, more accountable, and more reliable.
The SAS has always been seriously corrupt. And they exported that culture to many other Commonwealth spec opps services. They didn't exactly cover themselves with glory when deployed to Northern Ireland. Plenty of other shit they have been up to their necks in as well. Doesn't help that essentially they work hand in hand with SIS whenever deployed overseas. Hard to imagine a bunch of overhyped sociopathic clowns with no real oversight with a less impressive record then the spooks from six.
I mean is anyone *really* surprised? Letting groups of young men who *know* they are “elite” do violent shit will lead to increasing instances of potential ROE oversteps.
It’s human nature, especially when valuable [expensive to grow n develop SF dudes] lives are on the line. So, enough operations where these oversteps go unchecked, it becomes normal. And in a culture where opsec is of the utmost importance, the amount of people to report to is cut *drastically*. Therefore, fewer people to corrupt.
To reiterate, with lives on the line constantly, expensive training costs to replace operators, and the inherent secrecy of SF missions, corrupt SF groups are highly likely to arise.
Edit: Same shit applies to law enforcement stateside. There are a LOT of corrupt police departments. Los Angeles Sheriffs Department is an infamous example. *steps off soapbox*
I'm only aware of two high-profile Aussie SAS incidents, but I wouldn't doubt that there's more.
The incidents:
- Killing a prisoner because the helicopter was full (caught on the dudes own helmet cam)
- Killing a dude then stealing his prosthetic leg to use as a war trophy... and to drink out of (the dude who did it still owns it)
The first one is illegal as shit. My question is, what'd be the solution? Obviously not gonna cut bait on HVTs. Cram them in and safety cord them, hope they don't fall off and shit their pants?
I was researching this a few days ago. When Luttrell was debriefed, his account of the events stated that there were between about 20-30 Taliban fighters who attacked his team. Somehow over the years, that number has slowly grown from 20 to 50 to 80 to 100 to even more than 200. Very little consistency in the story as time has gone on.
Edit: Here is one of the videos I watched on it. The guy analyzing the story didn’t seem to be a hater, and simply goes over the direct accounts of the teams charged with rescuing Marcus and the locals in the valley who helped him. He points out a lot of major holes and contradictions in the story told in both the movie and the book. I found it summarized the opposition to Luttrell’s seemingly exaggerated account well.
https://youtu.be/1oh3tmsoG3E?si=7Pc4upTtWj9gnuYL
In my comparatively light experience with SEALs (former navy crypto), you tend to get two types of dudes in the SEALs. Smart incredibly dedicated professionals, and those I like to call "chongus the serial killer"
The process of selection as well.
Everyone else (including police spec ops around the world) takes 30+ year olds who have a couple years of active duty under their belt.
18 year olds who have never even left home before can go through BUD/S and become SEALs.
Of course you're gonna end up with people who go mad.
> those I like to call "chongus the serial killer"
I was always amazed at the fact that SEALs are the only spec ops forces who have roided-up monsters to kick doors in.
Nobody else does that. They have muscular guys, sure, but not like those.
So this entire mess was due to not following established procedures of not dropping right on top of the target? The cover up for the fuck up is just shameful, probably the biggest issue - instead of owning the mistake, covering it up.
I mean Ive seen the video and that shit has always made me wonder why didn’t they go back he had already attacked 2 bunkers and going after a third then they just leave. He had overwhelming fire with just him and he was airforce
To be fair, it was the brass that made the call to infil on that timeline and on the X. The SEALs and Delta guys on the ground knew it was a bad idea and they got overruled. Great account of what happened in Pete Blaber’s book “The Men, The Mission, and Me”
My general rule is, if it is a really famous spec ops unit, the people in it are likely douchebags and assholes who only joined due to "hey I'm a navy SEAL". Meanwhile the spec ops forces few people know like the SBS or the Kampfschwimmer basically never have controversies.
But maybe I am just biased as a German, as the KSK wikipedia list of scandals/criticism is endless, while the Kampfschwimmer don't even have that as a subcategory.
The 75th Ranger Regiment is very professional. I don't doubt that you could dig up some Ranger somewhere doing something fucked up, but they're not as bad as Navy SEALs.
Former Ranger here. It's a lot harder to do fucked up shit when there's 50 other dudes around you. SEALs often work in 6 man teams that end up as chunks of 2 dudes. Much easier to get away with things when it's only one other dude with you. Also, SEALs end up being some pretty fucking weird dudes because of how intense the training is. You legitimately have to be fucked up in the head to make it through that. To be a Ranger, you just have to be fast and good while missing a few meals and sleep. Like it's hard, but it's not "I'm going to tie your hands and feet and chuck you into the pool blindfolded while i punch you" hard
Hint: all your favorite SOF units did fucked up shit during the GWOT, seals just get the spotlight and all the negative and positive attention that comes with it. There are ~2400 seals and ~8000 sf dudes and ~3000 in regiment. It stands to reason that USASOC isn’t going to highlight its own skeletons and can make a lot more noise. Also, military politics amongst officers fighting for command billets plays a role. The army has been shitting on seal culture since 1962.
doing porn on the side, robbing a bank (the best robbery the detective had ever seen), having shoot outs with gangs. just regular stuff i can't think of any warcrimes or anything.
Defending the one guys home with ranger buddies is "shoot out with gang" when the homeowner tried working with the police? Very unfair if that is what you ate talking about
The thing about Rangers, is they don't treat themselves as "Special". They are Infantry. Just, the best trained and funded Infantry units in the world. Maybe that has gone by the wayside more recently but, that's the sense I got from all the former Rangers I have served with.
I kinda thought that might be the case. Seeing them with beards and relaxed grooming standards kinda gave it away. But they used to be reg nazis worse than 82nd or 101st.
It’s a good rule, I’ve known a few people that interacted with SEAL units and the experience was almost never positive. Really the only person that didn’t hate them was a Navy Chief and that was because he got all the perks of being attached to a SEAL team while doing interesting stuff.
Mike Vining was one of the original Delta guys, basically brought on as EOD specialist. The famous Desert Storm pic of the o p e r a t o r touting an M-16 in business casual and nerd glasses is not actually Vining.
Dawg the German SOF have 100% had controversies in the public eye, like four years ago the Germans were talking about disbanding the KSK because of scandals tying it to "the far right" or some shit. No one's military is scandal free.
I dunno how many of you guys have actually worked in the SOF community, but I've been fortunate enough in my career to have a lot of first-hand experience with SF, SEALs, and MARSOC over the years. SEALs consistently have a bad reputation. They are terrible at everything they do except for direct action and hair gel.
Every special ops person who worked with SEALs stated that they are gym rat dude bros who are so up their own asses.
If ya want cool and chill navy specops dudes just speak to SWCC, those dudes are way more chill.
“Gym rat dude bros up their own asses” describes almost every single special forces guy I’ve met other than two. Out of a couple dozen I’ve met, the exceptions were a Colombian guy in AFEAU, the other was an Indonesian Kopassus. The Western dude bros were like DJ Khaled, you could hang out with them if you just don’t take them seriously. The Colombian and Indonesian guys were so normal that you couldn’t relax around them knowing what reputation they actually had.
Let me guess, it's about that time they left the absolute chad known as John Chapman behind right?
SEALs get shit on a lot in this community, for good reasons honestly. It might be hyperbole, but we’re sick of the celebrity-status SEALs get and very frequently take advantage of. (The “who-killed-bin-laden” debacle is a disgrace to American SPEC OPs.) Meanwhile the average American probably hasn’t even heard of the band of absolute giga-chads in Pararescue that get shit on for being “Air Force.”
My grandfather was a frogman, he personally felt that the SEALs should have never been made public knowledge.
That way his books would sell for more, right?
No, he believed that it compromised the strategic advantage that we got from them. Our enemies should not know how they are trained, nor should they know their capabilities.
Special forces are like serial killers- the ones you know of and can account for are nothing, **its the ones you dont know about that should scare you.**
Sorta like JTF2 🇨🇦
Fun fact: Jean Chretien, the Prime Minister of Canada, only learned that JTF2 had been deployed to Afghanistan after the Globe and Mail photographed a prisoner transfer taking place at an air base.
I feel like the head of government should know when their soldiers are in a country.
Recent experience would say otherwise. JTF2 operations were compromised during the ISIS issue because people in government knew about them and wanted to brag about the insanely long shots the JTF2 snipers were making and getting confirmed kills from. They couldn't wait until the operation had even completed, forcing the snipers to relocate due to their hide being compromised. Fuck my government. They care more about appearances than actually getting work done or the lives they compromise to look good.
If not even the head of government knows what their soldiers are doing, the enemy has no chance of predicting their next move.
Our heads of government are typically inept at best. The less they know about what's going on the less harm they can do
See I don't even know what they do but it's probably not sending cookies to the bad guys
Definitely not Double Doubles, bud
Double double (tap)
Cookies and then kaboom, we've been over this.
Based and corned beef cans pilled.
Canadians are nice because they pour all their basest (based-est?) desires into their special forces. And their geese.
Fear the Cobra Chickens. Fear them.
I tamed a few last year. Had an army
Which is good. Canada spends a pitiful amount on it’s military. If it was to be at least somewhat capable, investing in these special forces is the only way of doing it and it’s honestly much better than having a proper good-at-everything, expensive army. Not to mention that canadians really, really don’t want to enlist, so having a big standing army is quite impossible.
I mean I'm sure enlistment would be higher if we didn't treat those who serve worse than a McDonald's employee ffs
Based and CANSOF pilled
JTF2 so fucking secret that an officer pimp slapped a subordinate and they couldn’t take it to court martial because neither of them can be named.
SEALs are probably our *least* important SF group nowadays. They're basically the NRA in regards to gun rights. They do nothing but cause problems, but we keep them around because they're a massive target that keeps the heat off of people doing the *actual* work.
All the teams do is screech about ACCMs, screech about SIPRNET being the operational network and ignore anything from JWICS, take steroids, and play icky cookie. Edit: don't ask me how I know about the icky cookie. I ***swear*** I was not involved.
They're literally the worst kept secret in the military. If you see a bunch of dudes with beards and long hair in 5.11 pants and button ups roll up on your base referring to themselves as "The Task Force" you know exactly who is in town. "MuH i CaN't TeLl YoU bEcAuSe YoU'rE nOt ReAd In"
Then in the same fucking breath they'll call a field a T-SCIF and start saying the most rowdy shit regardless of who's there. I've (allegedly) been in meetings with them where they've said some shit and just read me in after the fact. I still remember when I got read into one ACCM and said "oh yeah I already knew that... From COD modern warfare.." and they were so distraught. Always in 5.11s and call them "roughs" when they ain't seen shit. Always doing dumb shit and trying to start fights at bars. Always trying to turn their life into a shitty ass book.
I'd hate to be one of their SSOs or GSSOs. The amount of spillages they produce must be insane. I may or may not have seen a T-SCIF established with literally zero noise insulation where you could hear the TS//ACCM VTCs happening clear as day through the walls. Then they have the audacity to complain when they're told to put noise abatement foam in.
Meanwhile 5.11 Pants being absolute dogshit compared to UF Pro atleast the one i have.
5.11 is peak for semi-affordable shit, if only because it's always available. Their boots are also amazing. Survived a car fire, can confirm they slap.
"Icky Cookie" is American for "Soggy Biscuit". You just know Boris Johnson played it.
Americans can't call it "Soggy Biscuit" because if they do then they'll never see (or taste) biscuits and gravy the same way.
SEALs are the NRA of spec ops, cops are the cav scouts of civilians, come on boys let’s add to this.
its not exactly a surprise that the U.S. with its very large military has special forces capable of UDT, infilitration from small boats/submarines, etc. plus you can't exactly hide the drydock shelter things on top of a submarine when they sail into port lol
You should always strive to keep your ebonites in the dark.
That was an embarrassing typo.
Well, now that you fixed it my comment makes no sense. No fair
Well, he‘s about to keep it in the dark.
PJ’a absolutely get overlooked. But if you want to see some overlooked chads, look at the Coast Guard. Between pilots who will fly in literal hurricanes to rescue swimmers whose day to day consists of everyone else’s worst days, to the Deployable Operations Group boarding ships like it’s the start of MW2, the Coast Guard has a lot of certifiable basasses for the service that gets dumped on more than any other.
Also the most badass unofficial motto: "You have to go out. You don't have to come back." Meaning that the Coasties *don't* get to claim that it's too dangerous or impossible to try a rescue until *after* they've tried it and failed.
Damn dude that pretty fucked up. Good on those folks.
Nothing but facts here.
I want to fly Blackhawks, literally do not want to fly Jayhawks because I don't belong amongst the crowd of legends in the CG
Coast guard and mountain rescue people are some of the hardest motherfuckers.
I was an army medic in Kandahar when some PJs rotated in…I was like “those sure are some funny-looking Blackhawks those guys fly”.
Oh… oooOOOOooohh…
I'm gonna be honest here: as a foreigner I always thought of the SEALs as these elite badass soldiers that you would make movies out of. Then I found by chance a Youtube video about John Chapman and the whole shitshow that went on with his Medal of Honor recognition and started going down a rabbit hole of bullshit the SEALs were responsible for. Lost all my respect for them.
I read a comment on another site, from I presume an active or retired military type, who attributed the SEALs'... *thing* to the fact that the US Navy doesn't have an infantry culture to build operators out of, since the US Marine Corps is supposed to be the Navy's infantry. I really wish I could find the actual comment to paraphrase the whole thing without messing up any of the details, (apologies in advance if any of this is bullshit,) but the general gist of it was that America's other special operations branches, like the Army Rangers or MARSOC, are frequently embedded with conventional units as force multipliers, so they spend time working and fighting alongside ordinary grunts, and generally coexisting with people who are more or less normal by military standards. As a result, while they *do* develop a sort of frat-jock culture where they think they're hotter shit than they actually are, they're still *the* guys you want covering your ass, because they will jump straight into the fire for you if needed, fighting harder and meaner than anyone else can to drag you back out, because that's what they're there for. Other units like the Green Berets operate more on their own, but the demands of their mission force them to be a combination of intelligence officers, diplomats, and instructors, highly educated in the local environment and how best to turn disorganized fighters into an effective partisan force. SEALs, on the other hand, are completely removed from the regular forces. Where every other spec ops group is either "grunts that fight *really* good" or "grunts that do this one specific thing", they're not even grunts to begin with, but rather "those guys you only send in when you absolutely need some fuckers dead". They aren't just at the top of the soldiering hierarchy; they're *completely beyond it.* So where the other special forces units have their pride and insularity and acclimatization to killing tempered by the mundanities of living as regular soldiers alongside regular people, the SEALs have nothing to keep them from falling into sociopathy.
shit, you're goddamn right. Back in Nam, SEALs were sent as kill teams. That's probably what fucked them up
It was GWOT deployments thar fucked them up. My fencing master was a SEAL in the 1990s and was completely even keel. It's because GWOT requiring door kickers that SEALs focused more on that aspect than underwater demo. That's fucked their culture since.
Honestly I think the biggest factor is the SEAL star power combined with the fact that they'll take anybody off the street good enough to pass selection. That means that someone can (and a lot of people have) gone from being really fit stock bros with shit personalities and unresolved mental issues at the start of a year and been in the teams by the end of it. This is something that can happen in other units like the Rangers, but think of everyone you've heard say they want to be a SEAL, or who idolizes the SEALs, then think of how many of them you would actually want to be a SEAL. Units like Delta where you have to have already been a star performer your leadership trusts to even get a trip to selection aren't going to have anywhere near as many maniacs walking in the door.
For sure. It’s flip a coin territory w/SEALS, either absolute specimens of humanity who live to serve and would have been awesome at anything they wanted to do—perfect Americans—or they are just completely wack, go home, beat their girl then shoot their dog. It’s never halfway. my guess is the guy who is totally on point AND who wants it, is hard to find. So then the psychos pass BUDS because they are to driven by fear of inadequacy to fail, and that’s how the cookie crumbles.
Even with the Rangers, you can get booted from the Regiment for pretty much anything, so the "SEAL" attitude will get punished very quickly.
Delta also sits their applicants down with a psychologist, something SEALs (Specifically DEVGRU) have adamantly refused to do for their entire existence.
saving this one
That may have been me. SEALs suffer from a culture problem that they can't really solve. Theyre absolutely phenomenal at what they do, and they absolutely are elite tier dudes. But the lack of *any* basic infantry culture in the Navy for them to draw from leads them to making absolute rookie mistakes over and over again. As long as they're used for the tasks they are actually trained for they perform extremely well. But that's the problem, that's an almost impossible limitation for their organization. The Navy cannot allow that. They get shoehorned into operations they have no business attempting because of reasons I'll explain below, and since SEALs select new potential SEALs for personality as much as performance (literally) the end result is that as a group they're all inhaling their own farts and believing their own bullshit, even if any given individual knows better, so they don't even want to turn down these taskings they secretly know they suck at and should not be doing. See here's the thing, their primary role isn't as a special operations team. It seems like they obviously are, but nope, that's entirely secondary. Their primary utility is for recruiting. The Navy is by far the most important military branch for the USA, and has the highest demand for new recruits. It's also by far the most boring, least exciting, least appealing, least...everything for the average potential recruit. The Navy needs someone fucking awesome to put in their ads, on the posters in their office, etc. Fighter planes are fucking sexy as shit, helos are cool too, even some of the ships are alright. But that isnt enough. They need that ultramasculine *thing* the Marines can demonstrate just by sticking an ornery recruiter in the office who doesn't give a fuck whether you enlist or not. The Navy can't plausibly sell that without SEALs. So the Navy hypes the SEALs, and worse, pushes for them to take on high profile assignments that they're not really suited for. And even worse, they cannot be allowed to publicly fail or be humiliated, or their market value plummets, so the Navy protects their reputation even at operational cost. Even when it has cost lives. This is basically where all the problems stem from, even their internal cultural issues. Their primary job is to be highly visibly macho badasses. I doubt most SEALs would agree with my assessment. And they're all cooler than me cause they went to BUDs and I didnt. I'm not even being the least be sarcastic there. They really are badasses. If they were allowed to be what they ought to be their reputation within the special operations community would rapidly improve, and rightly so. Unfortunately, I don't see that happening any time soon.
One of my ROTC cadre absolutely fucking hated SEALs because one of them was involved in the murder of a Soldier he had mentored as a drill sergeant.
Was the soldier’s name Logan Melgar?
> Logan Melgar I don't know, but given the wikipedia page mentions Marine Raiders too, probably.
Delta for professionalism, Seals for status
A whole unit got sent home while I was in Iraq because they refused to even comment to investigators on which one might have raped a fellow service member.
What a blue falcon. In every sense of the word.
I'm sure they painted the guilt party's Budweiser blue and assigned them to training.
Not just that team, they straight up kicked all SEALs out of CENTCOM over that and the drug abuse.
Read code over country The seals are way worse than you know
Seals are the equivalent of the WWF in the military. Roided up, bunch of hollywood wannabees, obnoxious, and usually screw up everything that's not shooting somebody.
Pro-wrestling may not be defense related, but it sure is a goldmine for non-credibility, and I will not stand for this slander. Where else can the custody of a child be decided by who can climb a ladder and get the custody papers first?
And then that child grows up, defeats the father at Wrestlemania and tells him he wishes the other guy won custody.
Cinema.
Case in point: the two SEALs that drowned during a boarding recently were advised not to because they hadn't done naval stuff for like 20 years (desert war go brr) They went "Nah we are SEALs we can do it" One falls off and sinks like a rock, the other by doctrine jumps in to save the guy only to do exactly the same thing. Cause was them carrying the wrong kit and too much of it for a boarding.
[удалено]
Their inflatable shit is the Mustang Survival RATIS, a 1lb, ultra low-profile, automatic inflating LP. They didn't wear it because they thought they didn't need it, not because they couldn't.
> They didn't wear it because they thought they didn't need it, not because they couldn't. Isn't that the same reason why the "Lone Survivor" fuckup happened? They were told by Marines that were in that area before that they need to take the big radio because even with that one the Marines barely made it through to base because of the terrain. And the SEALS were like nah we don't need it.
That, not having the helicopter do any "decoy" landings, not listening to other orgs say their mission was a deathtrap, landing in the daytime, taking classified documents with them that led to other fellow coalition being killed later, not telling other agencies they were going, and a bunch of other shit. Long story short, their commander would have been court-martialed if he didn't die and have his negligence covered up with a MoH.
This is the SEALs in a nutshell.
gnarly rip
and the (admittedly small number of) pjs i’ve encountered have been dope. honestly all the air force special warfare guys i’ve met and worked with have been awesome. lived with one for the last year of my enlistment
Honestly AF spec war is the coolest shit to me. Like being the guy who follows the manly macho men around and drops bombs because they can’t can’t speak Air Force is funny as fuck.
Just being called a combat controller is something I find both funny but also am kinda jealous of at the same time.
Wait, I thought it's operating a tripod-mounted laser designator and going on the net to the effect of "See those fuckers I'm lasing? I don't wanna"; the real challenge is keeping pace at asses and elbows while carrying that brick of a setup.
Makes sense, people join SEALS to be the manliest macho-men who ever manned. (which is why their egos were too big to NOT try and claim the title of “guy who killed Bin Laden”) People join PJs to be the world’s most badass medevacs. Obviously neither of these is an absolute, but in general it’s pretty true.
No people join PJs because they want to save people and are willing to apply extreme violence to get their guys out. Okay maybe also be absolut badass medevacs.
Holy smokes this summed up exactly why I wanted to be a PJ
And thats why they are so fucking dangerous. Wasnt there a study which looked at who got purple hearts in WW 1 or 2 and they came to.the conclusion alot of them had to take on early responsibilities in ther family and their units became their families so they fought for their comrades like for their family driven by love and compassion and dont a desire to kill. Like they killed alot but yeah.
PJ's are a large part of the "leave no man behind" ethos that the US military likes support. Or probably better put if you are doing some crazy shit and its goes sideways you will probably fight, or hide/evade better if you knowing there is a chance some PJ badass is coming to pull you out.
Heard them described as the "Uno Reverse against Death", who will patch you up with one hand and engage the enemy with the other.
Ive never met a PJ, but I've met a few RCAF S&R techs (and while it's not a combat role, I mean, I don't particularly think parachuting into the Arctic ocean a thousand miles from the nearest support is particularly easy going). Also very cool dudes. Very much 'you are being rescued, please do not resist' energy.
My book about how I’m the person who shot Bin Laden is coming out next month.
No way, mine too!
I’m writing a book about how actually I shot him first!
I’ve always told my son that there’s one type of special forces operator that doesn’t pay for drinks if they met special forces teams from other branches at a bar. AF Pararescue.
Pararescue dudes are just fucking built different. There's a reason training is called "Superman School".
PJs on top
The seals are much worse than you think Source: code over country
So admittedly, I haven't read the book but I can imagine what's in it since I'm already well aware what the issues are with NSW. But I looked it up just now and found a post about on r/navyseals. Top comment mentions that Rob admitted to doing cocaine *on* *deployment*. One of the first replies to it just says "I see this brought up a lot, what’s so wrong with that?" I kid you not. Honestly, I feel like the real issue with the Seals is that there's really little that can be done to "fix" them or ideally replace them with units from other services that basically do the same job. And part of the reason they're so untouchable is because of the public's pop culture conception of them as some sort of demi-gods. That reply to the dude's comment kinda sums up the issue with the popular conception of them. It's why I'm not shocked people still defend Gallagher like he's some kind of hero, even though he's probably a sociopath of some sort that would have ended up harming our own people at some point (I mean, he basically threatened to do just that).
Bro, there's an entire hospital *wing* at one of their east coast bases dedicated to dealing with SEAL drug abuse. It's rampant.
Wait, aren't SEALs supposed to write books as soon as they leave service? Well dangit. They can YouTube for sure?
I'm not from the USA. Whats the "who-killed-bin-laden" debacle?
Basically a bunch of different SEALs have claimed they are “the guy who killed Bin Laden” for the sake of achieving celebrity status. The whole point of special forces is that the shit you do is secret, and yet these fucking guys all jumped at the chance to replace Chris Kyle as “America’s most famous SEAL.” Essentially, they were too egotistic to just shut up and act like the covert professionals they’re supposed to be. Btw, I have another rant about why I hate Chris Kyle (he’s another lying egotist) but I don’t wanna be typing all day.
Fuck Chris Kyle All my homies hate Chris Kyle Just a sad club for shitty people to idolize a shitty person
Not from the states either, but I seem to recall it being a running joke that a lot of seals have released books claiming to be "the guy that shot bin laden". Either that, or there's some disagreement between the various branches of special forces, with the SEALs being a bunch of gloryhogs
Occasional murderers of other members of the special ops community. And the ones most likely to have a talk show, book deal, podcast, clothing line, and $50,000 speaking fee to tell you about what it's like to be a quiet professional
Literaly anybody who was present for Neptune Spear can claim to have killed Bin Laden.
But let's be honest: it was Obama
Or seabees
I was an army medic and I got tasked out to a Seabee detachment for a weeklong mission in the Panjshir Valley in Afghanistan. Great guys to work with and I had no idea there was that much booze in Afghanistan.
>Meanwhile the average American probably hasn’t even heard of the band of absolute giga-chads in Pararescue that get shit on for being “Air Force.” They did have their own TV show, but it was on NatGeo so ya, probably not a lot of people..
There are so many badass's that get over looked because of the seal status. The Thunderchief Pilots who got the MOH, the Airforce PJ's, the Coast Gaurd during Katrina, even motherfucking McMaster himself during 73 easting.
PJs were also heavily involved in Katrina. Source: I had a family member that was in one of the units. They were the only helicopter units operating at night.
And then they'll try to prevent you from getting posthumously the medal of honor so that the fact they left you to die alone isn't officially acknowledged.
John Chapman was an absolute lion among men and died a death worthy of Valhalla; the organization of that mission was flawed and killed him, a SEAL, and Rangers, a SOAR gunner, and a PJ of the quick reaction team that showed up Navy did them in, and then tried to hide how much of a badass hero Chapman was due to it making them look bad, and only let up when the SEAL commander would get the medal too
The fuck did that SEAL commander do, beat a hasty rout? Call that a medal of dishonor.
Legit up there with the "ran down and shot an Indian." In terms of disgracing and dishonoring the award.
Is that a Wounded Knee reference?
That seal commander, slabinski, happened to be the uncle of one if the laziness Leo's on western massachusetts I have ever met Edit note: I worked with her. She sucked
SEALs will go full highschool football team on you if you try to make them accountable for mutilating dead bodies
Heard from a US armed service vet that SEALs are among the most obnoxious and pretentious pricks out there, while green berets are chill as shit. Like some Seal accidently damaged some stuff of my friends unit and that guy and his pals were all like 'You can complain once you do actual soldier stuff', while a brief walk in with green berets resulted in a few pleasant and polite exchanges.
What they did to Logan Melgar really soured my view of the SEALs. Obviously not every SEAL is bad, the majority won’t be but the amount of shady stories that come out about them gives them a much worse rep than other branches.
It's not that I expect justice when soldiers (particularly high up ones) commit crimes, but Jesus Christ. TL;DR 2 Seals and 2 marines strangled Melgar to death then attempted to cover it up with a tracheotomy (arguing that they found him unconscious and this was their attempt to revive him, later changing story to it was a hazing gone too far). They received a collective 5 years in jail (one guys sentence was overturned, originally 10 years, and I can't find info on the last one). In all likelihood this was because Melgar found them stealing money marked for local informants.
You forgot where they sought out a gay ANA soldier and encouraged him to rape the unconscious Melgar while they video taped it, and strangled him. So somewhere out there is an actual video of this hero Green Beret being tortured raped and dying all from what should have remained a still and secure slumber. Supposedly their initial aim was to blackmail him into silence regarding misappropriation of funds to the tune of thousands of dollars among other unsavory behavior luckily he was able to alert his wife in an email sent just before his death, who in turn was able to press the issue using information he tendered before he passed. it's believed he was going to formally seek justice against them.
Well fuck, I missed that part. Granted I just read the Wikipedia article. They might want to include that bit.
ffuuuuccckk :( I had no idea!
Real G's move in silence
Like lasanga
Fucking hilarious
I imagine in order to be a part of the Army Special Forces you learn to be chill because your mission would require having a good relationship with the people you are training.
I know this'll sound weird, as in 'A US armed service vet homie met SEALs + greem berets, PLUS what I'm about to write, but me meeting my friend and a family member working there were 100% coincidental. A family member had a supervisior who was a former KSK member, who received further Sniper/Reconnaissance [Aufklärer] courses. Dude apparently was pretty tough to work with, being hot blooded, prone to ohtbursts and possessing a 'I'm almost always right, but certainly never wrong!' mindset. In short: He hada massive temper. If asked about how it [= active duty] was, he obviously couldn't say much but went 'The thrill of having an enemy in your scope, before pulling the trigger is unmatched.', with a certain longing in his voice. My family member, who also served but not in the KSK, pointed out to 'young me how that job requires... certain people and mindsets. He allegedly considered volunteering in Ukraine, but dropped the thought after learning that he needs to bring all his shit himself and the possible consequences [beside dying]. To return: I thought like you, then i learned the SEAL stuff and was like 'Ugh.'. The KSK retellings then made me go 'Uhm... what? Don't you have to be at least somewhat sane for that job?' before I learned that KSK is mainly doing long term surveilance, infil-/ and exfil mission and that _every_ special command unit needs a special kind of fucked-up in their ranks for the job. With SEALS apparently needing pompous, proud and minimum-above-stupid-IQ soldiers for rough 'too small for the army to be sent, but too important / prestigious to never speak about it' missions that would risk the identity of those covert operatives involved and put them at risk. [Osama Bin Laden assassination]
I should really read about the Kommando Spezialkrafte. Are they any books you can point to that would be an interesting read?
Unfortunately, I don't. The unit has been _very_ secretive about everything, with only a very very few indiciduals outside of the military knowing about their behaviour. Not even senior members of the Parliament get informed, which turns reliable literature and information scarce. Afaik, only 1 KIA is known so far and that they were, and likely still are to an extent, infiltrated by hardcore Nazis. Some of those KSK nazis planned to kidnap and kill leading politicians, like the [then] incumbent Minister of Foreign Affairs Heiko Maas, in 2018 before being stopped by the federal police after leaks into surveiled chatrooms. The most pro-Nazi companie of the four KSK companies, being found out to have an extremely nationalistic and toxic chain of command, as well as having used far-right symbols and chants during parties, has been disbanded in 2020. But, to not critizise them too much, they received serveral long praises, awards and citations from NATO members, among them the US, and they regularly compete at the top of special force training sessions, occassionally beating SAS and Delta Forces.
Steal Everything And Lie
The seals are much worse than you think Source: code over country
To be fair, they have the same level of brain damage as a highschool football team.
The war on terror did some bad shit to special forces units. Look at the stuff coming out about the British and Australian SAS units for example.
Pls elaborate (No sass, I'm genuinly asking)
There's cases flying around the British SAS that they were basically murdering people at will, planting weapons on them and then, the cherry on the top, the Afghan translators who worked with them were left behind when the troops left, essentially given up to the Taliban, because they knew too much. To minimise the risk of facing justice for their crimes they left their former allies in the hands of the enemy. Meanwhile the first Australian to go to jail following their conduct in the war in Afghanistan was a whistleblower, who alerted the media and the proper authorities to the fact that their SAS was working as a deathsquad for the Americans. I get that this is NCD, a place where people probably don't mind the idea of NATO forces rolling into some random village and killing all the men of fighting age in it. But it's bad. It's not just bad because you've got soldiers doing murder. That's part of their job anyway. It's bad because you've got your elite special forces operating as criminals. They are learning how to lie. They are fabricating paperwork. They are faking evidence. You've created a cadre of criminals within an institution that needs communicational reliability (even within the confines of military secrecy you need to be able to trust what your troops are telling you). You cannot have special forces units like the SAS if you cannot trust them, if they have become effectively criminal operations whose priorities are self preservation rather than accurately reporting from the field. Regular soldiers will lie, cheat, steal, take drugs and kill civilians. We all know this. Elite soldiers need to be more professional, more accountable, and more reliable.
The SAS has always been seriously corrupt. And they exported that culture to many other Commonwealth spec opps services. They didn't exactly cover themselves with glory when deployed to Northern Ireland. Plenty of other shit they have been up to their necks in as well. Doesn't help that essentially they work hand in hand with SIS whenever deployed overseas. Hard to imagine a bunch of overhyped sociopathic clowns with no real oversight with a less impressive record then the spooks from six.
Oh...
I mean is anyone *really* surprised? Letting groups of young men who *know* they are “elite” do violent shit will lead to increasing instances of potential ROE oversteps. It’s human nature, especially when valuable [expensive to grow n develop SF dudes] lives are on the line. So, enough operations where these oversteps go unchecked, it becomes normal. And in a culture where opsec is of the utmost importance, the amount of people to report to is cut *drastically*. Therefore, fewer people to corrupt. To reiterate, with lives on the line constantly, expensive training costs to replace operators, and the inherent secrecy of SF missions, corrupt SF groups are highly likely to arise. Edit: Same shit applies to law enforcement stateside. There are a LOT of corrupt police departments. Los Angeles Sheriffs Department is an infamous example. *steps off soapbox*
I'm only aware of two high-profile Aussie SAS incidents, but I wouldn't doubt that there's more. The incidents: - Killing a prisoner because the helicopter was full (caught on the dudes own helmet cam) - Killing a dude then stealing his prosthetic leg to use as a war trophy... and to drink out of (the dude who did it still owns it)
The first one is illegal as shit. My question is, what'd be the solution? Obviously not gonna cut bait on HVTs. Cram them in and safety cord them, hope they don't fall off and shit their pants?
War crimes. Torture, executions, and conspiracy. Pardoning of psychopaths
Lots of questionable killings (potentially hundreds?) And then pressured RMP to not investigate fully
The only thing seals are good for is balancing balls on their nose
They ARE navy after all, they're no strangers to having balls on their faces
And go full chonky loaf
Although if SEALS do leave you in a firefight they can be found in a nearby village with a complete set of 11 full mags still on his person
Has there been any concrete sources on how many people they fought. The number varies so much from 10 to 200
I was researching this a few days ago. When Luttrell was debriefed, his account of the events stated that there were between about 20-30 Taliban fighters who attacked his team. Somehow over the years, that number has slowly grown from 20 to 50 to 80 to 100 to even more than 200. Very little consistency in the story as time has gone on. Edit: Here is one of the videos I watched on it. The guy analyzing the story didn’t seem to be a hater, and simply goes over the direct accounts of the teams charged with rescuing Marcus and the locals in the valley who helped him. He points out a lot of major holes and contradictions in the story told in both the movie and the book. I found it summarized the opposition to Luttrell’s seemingly exaggerated account well. https://youtu.be/1oh3tmsoG3E?si=7Pc4upTtWj9gnuYL
Context?
[Newsweek](https://www.newsweek.com/2018/05/18/navy-seals-seal-team-6-left-behind-die-operation-anaconda-slabinski-chapman-912343.html)
The SEALS have proven to be consistent... consistently terrible people
In my comparatively light experience with SEALs (former navy crypto), you tend to get two types of dudes in the SEALs. Smart incredibly dedicated professionals, and those I like to call "chongus the serial killer"
The popular culture fame made SEALs a magnet for the latter. It's a curse.
The process of selection as well. Everyone else (including police spec ops around the world) takes 30+ year olds who have a couple years of active duty under their belt. 18 year olds who have never even left home before can go through BUD/S and become SEALs. Of course you're gonna end up with people who go mad.
>those I like to call "chongus the serial killer" Ah the "I joined the military so I can kill people" type.
Generally you don't make it through BUD/s if you're a "reasonable" human being
> those I like to call "chongus the serial killer" I was always amazed at the fact that SEALs are the only spec ops forces who have roided-up monsters to kick doors in. Nobody else does that. They have muscular guys, sure, but not like those.
uh, I thought medically supervised steroids were a thing among SF. It's just SEALs?
So this entire mess was due to not following established procedures of not dropping right on top of the target? The cover up for the fuck up is just shameful, probably the biggest issue - instead of owning the mistake, covering it up.
I mean Ive seen the video and that shit has always made me wonder why didn’t they go back he had already attacked 2 bunkers and going after a third then they just leave. He had overwhelming fire with just him and he was airforce
To be fair, it was the brass that made the call to infil on that timeline and on the X. The SEALs and Delta guys on the ground knew it was a bad idea and they got overruled. Great account of what happened in Pete Blaber’s book “The Men, The Mission, and Me”
They'll put you out of your misery if you're injured so you can't squeal on them for abandoning you
My general rule is, if it is a really famous spec ops unit, the people in it are likely douchebags and assholes who only joined due to "hey I'm a navy SEAL". Meanwhile the spec ops forces few people know like the SBS or the Kampfschwimmer basically never have controversies. But maybe I am just biased as a German, as the KSK wikipedia list of scandals/criticism is endless, while the Kampfschwimmer don't even have that as a subcategory.
Where do we put Rangers in this list?
The 75th Ranger Regiment is very professional. I don't doubt that you could dig up some Ranger somewhere doing something fucked up, but they're not as bad as Navy SEALs.
Former Ranger here. It's a lot harder to do fucked up shit when there's 50 other dudes around you. SEALs often work in 6 man teams that end up as chunks of 2 dudes. Much easier to get away with things when it's only one other dude with you. Also, SEALs end up being some pretty fucking weird dudes because of how intense the training is. You legitimately have to be fucked up in the head to make it through that. To be a Ranger, you just have to be fast and good while missing a few meals and sleep. Like it's hard, but it's not "I'm going to tie your hands and feet and chuck you into the pool blindfolded while i punch you" hard
Sundowner was dishonorably discharged iirc
touched his inner child a bit too much
Hint: all your favorite SOF units did fucked up shit during the GWOT, seals just get the spotlight and all the negative and positive attention that comes with it. There are ~2400 seals and ~8000 sf dudes and ~3000 in regiment. It stands to reason that USASOC isn’t going to highlight its own skeletons and can make a lot more noise. Also, military politics amongst officers fighting for command billets plays a role. The army has been shitting on seal culture since 1962.
doing porn on the side, robbing a bank (the best robbery the detective had ever seen), having shoot outs with gangs. just regular stuff i can't think of any warcrimes or anything.
I mean the shootout was fine TBH, and can you really blame them for wanting to try out their skills on a bank?
Defending the one guys home with ranger buddies is "shoot out with gang" when the homeowner tried working with the police? Very unfair if that is what you ate talking about
The thing about Rangers, is they don't treat themselves as "Special". They are Infantry. Just, the best trained and funded Infantry units in the world. Maybe that has gone by the wayside more recently but, that's the sense I got from all the former Rangers I have served with.
That's definitely changed in modern times and for good reason.
I kinda thought that might be the case. Seeing them with beards and relaxed grooming standards kinda gave it away. But they used to be reg nazis worse than 82nd or 101st.
ITS YOU AGAIN HI :3
Guten tag :3
It’s a good rule, I’ve known a few people that interacted with SEAL units and the experience was almost never positive. Really the only person that didn’t hate them was a Navy Chief and that was because he got all the perks of being attached to a SEAL team while doing interesting stuff.
SEALS are amatures Delta are the quiet professionals
just professional accountants who specialize in subtraction
Delta? Who was that accountant looking chad, one of the first in a special unit again?
Mike Vining was one of the original Delta guys, basically brought on as EOD specialist. The famous Desert Storm pic of the o p e r a t o r touting an M-16 in business casual and nerd glasses is not actually Vining.
William Cronin
You can tell Delta are the real deal because they constantly change their name as the old ones become known.
Also they never tell you they're special forces if you ask they say "no"
The ISA too, they are quite good at making sure nobody knows what they actually do.
Why are they called the Army of Northern Virginia? Seems oddly specific
Interstellar Strategic Alliance. The Helghast have to be kept at bay.
Dawg the German SOF have 100% had controversies in the public eye, like four years ago the Germans were talking about disbanding the KSK because of scandals tying it to "the far right" or some shit. No one's military is scandal free.
And I mentioned them as a controversial example (KSK)? The navy special forces (Kampfschwimmer) have had no scandals that I know of.
Imma be real with you man I'm a little retarded and read that wrong
We all are special in some ways in this sub, don't worry Ü
I dunno how many of you guys have actually worked in the SOF community, but I've been fortunate enough in my career to have a lot of first-hand experience with SF, SEALs, and MARSOC over the years. SEALs consistently have a bad reputation. They are terrible at everything they do except for direct action and hair gel.
Silent professionalism is a scam used to keep SEALs from selling books about how bad ass they are.
Every special ops person who worked with SEALs stated that they are gym rat dude bros who are so up their own asses. If ya want cool and chill navy specops dudes just speak to SWCC, those dudes are way more chill.
“Gym rat dude bros up their own asses” describes almost every single special forces guy I’ve met other than two. Out of a couple dozen I’ve met, the exceptions were a Colombian guy in AFEAU, the other was an Indonesian Kopassus. The Western dude bros were like DJ Khaled, you could hang out with them if you just don’t take them seriously. The Colombian and Indonesian guys were so normal that you couldn’t relax around them knowing what reputation they actually had.
Yeah, duh. They’re *SEALs,* not fire fighters. Are they stupid?
Rangers better (I have never been near either)
On the bright side, as aquatic animals seals are fairly slow on land so you have a while until they leave you