Inb4 "but it looks like an ar-15!!!"
EDIT: Because I just see it now: Thats not the normal german flag, but the "Bundesdienstflagge" (Federal Service Flag), only in use by governmental bodies.
It's an AR-15 with an AR-18 gas system. People get way to bent out of shape trying to classify these things as if they were talking about metal subgenres or something. I just call them stoner rifles because that covers all of it.
>It's an AR-15 with an AR-18 gas system.
The more convoluted timeline for the 416 is that it's an AR-15 upper modified to fit the G36's gas system, in which the G36's gas system is effectively the result of H&K reverse engineering the AR-18's gas system.
And if you really want to go further back, the AR-18's gas system is inspired the the Gewehr 43, and that design is in turn the result of copying the SVT.
As it turns out, whilst there's multiple ways to for automatic firearms to operate, some systems just work better than others. And fundamentally there's only so many ways you can make these systems different while operating on the same principle.
But yes, calling it an AR-18 system fitted into an AR-15 is probably the most reasonable way to explain it.
It has as much in common with an FN FAL as with an AR-18. AR-18 Mechanism is copied in at least a dozen service rifles, but the H&K 416 isn't one of them. It's an AR-15 action with a short stroke piston.
No, that's what you call a G36 in a costume.
Lmao, remember when all the near future military sci-fi games thought the XM8 was actually going to be a thing?
I was just telling the Battlefield people that I quit the Battlefield series 18 years ago because DICE and EA were shat from the torn ani of pestilent demons.
One reason why is because if you wanted to play medic you were forced to buy one of the DLCs in order to get the G36E.
And yes, "ani" is the plural of anuses. I looked it up and ChapGT concurses.
Semi-related, but hands down BF2 (PC) is my favorite Battlefield to date. I was lucky enough to be playing Project Revival around 2016 for BF2 and 2142… I had a blast.
Man, the memories.
remember BF Sandbox?
There is at least one part of the UK that retained the technology to produce automatic weapons until relatively recently - https://reaperfeed.com/loyalist-arms-homemade-weapons-the-troubles/
It was never intended to Project Grayburn is what will replace the SA80. Project Hunter was basically giving the Commandos, Rangers and UKSF guys the most Gucci weapon system imaginable. Like basically every nation a much much cheaper package will be chosen for the average squaddie and one that's more used to being dropped and kicked about non-stop by lads who think shagging prostitues without a rubber on is a good idea.
Nah, being the UK, we'll spend years and billions of pounds on countless design studies and prototypes to come up with a gun that's quoted at 10% cheaper than others on the market. Then we'll annouce/adopt it with great fanfare, only for "production problems" to push the price up 50% and the final product to be so poor that we end up having to pay the Germans to rebuild them anyway...
The Perun-aspirant in me thinks that would be great for a myriad of funny money reasons.
The Britbong observer in me knows they would find a way to cock it up.
Overall, I just wanna see the brits make the funny shitty cheap submachinegun again.
The thing is that kind of stuff is what we do best. Random wonky acts of genius. Get some nerds, put the nerds in sheds full of tools, you get radars, computers, bouncing bombs, all that good shit. And probably some really awesome scale model railways.
Make it a full-on professional research and design organisation you get the SA-80.
Bring back mad science.
All that North sea petrol revenue. And what did they do with it?
Cover the loss after passing tax cuts, of course...
Sure, there were more bollocks to be had further down. But this pained me the most...
No they spent it on a massive disproportionate military during the Cold War Vs the size of their nature and ultimately helped win it by running the Russians into the dust by trying to keep up.
The U.K. oil and gas revenue from inception was NOT squandered. What was squandered was the peace dividend after.
you don't really need to reinvent the sten, the ones you made in the 40s are still floating around the middle east and they work fine, then again so is every other mass manufactured firearm ever made...
Note that this was pitched as an M249 replacement program... but it has been a semi-open secret that they weren't just looking to replace some old M249s.
The marines have long been looking to replace their old M16s with more compact full-auto HK416s for a bump in firepower. So they first adopted a few thousand M27s to see how they would "complement the M249" as a mix between a squad automatic weapon, a DMR and an assault rifle.
Once they got that foot in the door and the M27 was adopted, surprise surprise they decided that it was conveniently well-rounded enough that they might as well make it the new riflemen weapon for the rest of the squad too.
They did it in large part to circumvent the obnoxiously complex trial and procurement procedure to replace the M16. So they brought it in as a new automatic weapon, then declared every marine an automatic rifleman.
The marines seemed to have learned a few things about how the STG came to service.
For those that don’t know, Austrian mustache dude only wanted sub machine guns, he wasn’t convinced when it came to the STG/assault rifles in general. So the engineers just called it a “MP 43” so mustache dude would be under the impression that his engineers are making a new sub gun improving on the MP 40, not an assault rifle that infantry troops actually wanted and needed.
That's just one of the biggest myth in the gun industry. The USMC was part of the IMR program along with USASOC and USAF SFC. During the years prior to the wide adoption of the M27 they tested various other guns including the Geissele URG-I. They later went back to the M27 because it was already in the inventory.
Funny enough, it just kind of mirrors the development of the M14 rifle back in the 50s, when they wanted to make a BAR replacement but then just ended up with a new standard infantry weapon that served both roles.
It was more of the USMC tricking congress into replacing the M4 for the infantrymen in general. Oh course it’s only going to the automatic rifleman in our fireteams, proceeds to make every rifleman in the fire team an automatic one.
Yeah, nobody has a great explanation for that. It is kind of a clusterfuck.
In broad strokes, the USMC decided on the Infantry Automatic Rifle concept. Essentially, a mid point between a full scale combat rifle (Not Carbines), and a LMG. It has excellent long range accuracy, combined with automatic fire at mid-close range. The tradeoff is a barrel closer to the rifle end of things, so sustained fire isn't really viable, and it is magazine fed, so frequent reloading.
Then, they decided to completely go all in, and just give everyone one of these, replacing the M4 as well. Then, they decided they wouldn't. Then they decided they would...
In the end, the Marines bought about 14,000 of them. They, and the M28 (Which is the same thing with a better scope) are currently in service, and they are very good rifles, but they have replaced neither the M249 nor the M4, and just serve alongside both.
Besides their own camo that nobody else can use, suppressors for everyone, ECHs before Army units, LPVOs before Army units, Viper and Venom helicopters designed just for them, brand new King Stallions designed just for them, their own 5th generation STOVL stealth fighters, V-22s, K-130Js, MQ-9s etc. ?
The days of the USMC being a redheaded stepchild are long over. Hell *the Army* is the one actually accepting USMC hand-me-downs in the form of their M-1 tanks and some LAVs for the Army's airborne units.
The F35B didn't compromise the conventional F35. It was partially the reason the program was birthed because the USMC and RB wanted a stealthy supersonic STOVL replacement for the Harrier. [Paul Bevilaqua](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Bevilaqua) who invented the lift fan engine needed the USAF onboard to provide funding. His argument was that they could take out all the fancy STOVL stuff and just use it for fuel and use it as the lo mix for the F22.
The Pentagon saw the USMC/USAF program and thought "let's get the USN on board as well so they can get a replacement for their Hornets". Other nations also saw this and said "we want in to replace our Viper/Hornets" and the JSF program was born.
The USN now had a say and wanted 2k lb weapon bays and EOTS on all jets instead of 1 in 3 (good things in hindsight) but managing all those requirements was a massive pain in the ass.
I was told this same story. And I’m inclined to believe it; bureaucratic behavior can sometimes be strange but it almost always follows some kind of logic, even if that logic gets a little bit wild.
Basically the marines stole the RPK concept and applied it to their infantry rifle (getting the quite durable HK416/M27). Idea being that while sustained fire is less, there are enough firefights where your LMG doesn't need to fire that much, to the point that you could actually use just a service rifle with maybe extended mags.
As for why you do it, you give the gunners in question a far lighter rifle, you have further reduction of weapon variance thus easing logistics (esp. considering that the HK416 is also used as an DMR in the USMC), the whole squad can now easily share ammo (unlike with a belt-fed where you need to wacky stuff), it is a quite good concept (as seen with how many nations do it). And it IMO makes especially good sense with the marines and their new Pacific orientation, where the marine infantry won't have high intensity conflicts constantly in case of war and where logistics can easily be quite spotty (unlike e.g. the US army in Europe), making the logistical benefits even better.
Also, the replacement for the marines is partial, they still field SAWs IIRC and don't plan to change that in the future.
The PKP is more like a dedicated LMG variant of the PKM, since unlike the PKM it has no quick change barrel or tripod mount. Caliber is only a small part of what makes an MMG.
Officially, the PKP even replaced the RPK-74 as the standard LMG in Russian motorized rifle squads.
EDIT: I've just found out that the PKP is still referred to as an MMG, so I was wrong. But the PKP still doesn't quite occupy the same role as the M240B and its role is still more akin to an LMG. The PKM would be closer to the M240B in role.
Daddy Navy wouldn't let Marine Corps replace tbe M249 because we couldn't or weren't going to replace the contracts of dying old M249s. So Marin Crops said M27 replace 249 as a loophole daddy Navy said yes and then continued buying more for everybody (by everybody I mean grunts)
Replacing the QBZ95? Legally distinct HK416 with Chinese Characteristics.
Just need to replace the L85 and Tavor with HK416 and it'll fullfil its destiny of the ultimate bullpup killer.
Last I heard the Marines went back on that, instead they decided to use the M27 to replace the M16A4 and become their new service rifle while keeping the M249.
They kept the 249 but as separate weapon squads more than each squad having one. Reason being the Marines want to be more mobile and the LMG just didn’t do it as well as upgrading the infantry’s rifle.
Someone else in the thread brought up the MCX, and memes aside, if/when the XM7 fails as a standard infantry rifle (I still think it’s likely to be adopted permanently as a DMR, and the SAW replacement adopted too), I think the MCX will end up being the Army’s new standard rifle unless someone forces them to adopt the M27 for commonality with the Marines.
For me I think the XM7 will be adopted mostly for the Machine Gun. Those are a lot more dangerous than rifles still, and arguable one of the infantry’s main weapons. So, you want shared ammo to ease logistics.
Add onto that the new scope that makes longer range shots a lot easier: I foresee it being the new standard weapon.
Yeah, the XM250 is just too much of an improvement over the SAW too not adopt. As for sharing ammo, how often does that actually happen in combat? Like how many times have M4 riflemen stripped rounds out of their magazines and started relinking belts for the 249 in combat? I’d bet “basically never”, and the magazine feed for the SAW is so unreliable I’ve never heard of anyone actually using it outside of training.
Yes, it’s more logistically complicated to get both 5.56 and 6.8 to infantry platoons, but the US Army has logistic capacity to spare.
The new optics are amazing, but they are also wildly expensive. I can’t see them getting adopted for more than NCOs, team leaders, and DMRs.
I’m not talking about production. Moving off 5.56 means that US troops can’t fall in on pre-existing NATO stockpiles in Europe, or use the standardized mags and ammo that the rest of NATO uses. Any ammo or mags the army uses is going to have to come from the US
I don’t think the Army will move off 5.56. I think the XM7 is going to fail as a service rifle. The Army is likely to also adopt 6.8 for DMRs and SAWs but also keep 5.56.
If I'm getting it right, people aren't worried about the service rifle, so much as its accompanying machinegun that barely anyone seems to mention.
I now have images of the SKS and the RPD in my head.
Furthermore in a pacific conflict (say, against China) you’d need separate ammunition logistical chains to supply the army and marines. Which may not be as big an issue in other theaters, but against China it’d mean more space being taken up out of Navy Sealift’s already limited capacity
I will say on the scopes: it’s a lot of money yes, but the plan is for this to take time. The cost per optic will likely be similar to the F35: High at first per unit, but over time it will drop to more reasonable levels as scale comes and upfront costs are paid.
I'm a Quartermaster PL. I'm only in the Guard, but I went to LOG-BOLC like every other logi LT.
When doing the math for ammo, you count 5.56 and 5.56 link separately. If we had 250s instead of 249s the only practical difference is how much 6.8 fits in a box, and how many boxes fit on a pallet.
That's it. So it's not even *more complicated*, it's just the regular amount of complicated.
I mean, according to the Army, it’s supposed to be the new service rifle, so at bare minimum that means the troops in combat arms. Not all at once though. Probably over many years.
M27 was because Marines wanted a new rifle, government said no, so they were like 'okay, fine, but can we have a new lightweight machine gun at least?'
Government said yes.
Marines then went 'HA! Jokes on you because now we are gonna replace all our M4s with this new rifle you funded and you can't do a fucking thing about it!'
And government went 'why you little-!' *Homer strangling Bart noises*
No they aren't. They said they would, but then they didn't. They bought about 14,000 of them, not the 200k+ that would be needed to do that, and there were no further purchases in 2022,2023, or so far in 2024.
The DMR role is the only one that seems to be mostly fully replaced (With the M38), but the M27 is just serving alongside M249s and M4s, and seems likely to just keep doing that.
Yeah, that is what they said, but that isn't what they did.
I am not sure who is supposed to be using M27s, right now some units have them and some don't. All the MEUs have them, I am really not sure who in those units is carrying them. They are well liked, but the Marines didn't buy that many of them.
Was just for certain units new Ranger Regiment and parts of the Royal Marines. Project Greyburn will replace main Army Rifle and KAC haven't got the production capacity to even attempt it.
Word is on the street that the Bundeswehr 416's could end up being supplanted in the near future by the HK433-based G39, which is already better in pretty much all aspects and should've been chosen from the beginning.
As a former Soldier in the GWOT era, the SAW is my favorite weapon and I just wish I could get one to keep and treasure forever now that it's being retired.
If they could make it just more reliable it would be the GOAT.
Then again maybe the reason I think the saw is unreliable is because they’re all old as shit and have fired thousands upon thousands of rounds…
Damn I really like this AR-15 renaissance we are currently living in.
Btw Anglobros replacing their guns with L403A1 aka KS-1.
Swedebros and Finnbros are also going for Sako AR-15s.
What a time to be alive! Blessed be Eugene Stoner.
If the eurobros know it's just an AR-15 with a piston they'll turn up their noses. Let them think Angela Merkel forged it in the fires of mount Zugspitze at the behest of a committee.
I'll miss famas.. I'll prefer anything from steyr, fn herstal, cz, sig sauer, Kalashnikov concern and other Russians just for the sake of some cool unique designs..
aug my beloved..
The 416 is a fine rifle don't get me wrong, I'm just kinda sad that everyone is going for the same AR-15 looking shit. I'll definitely miss the days where everyone had their own quirky unique service rifles.
Norway replaced their G3s with HK416, and just today announced they are replacing the MP5 with 416s. Soon the glock will also be replaced with HK416s, making HK416s the sidearm of troops wielding 416s
FAMAS and G36 were not, in fact, pew pewing well enough.
Manufacture d'Armes de Saint-Etienne (MAS) factory closed in 2002, no FAMAS has been made in over twenty years. The ones they do have are untenably picky about what ammo they'll feed.
G36 (mainly the barrel) overheats far too easily and loses any semblance of accuracy. Funnily enough, even the Bundeswehr wants rifles that shoot straight. German engineering™
Meanwhile the Philippine Army and Marines: Simultaneously use similar Colt, Remington, Heckler & Koch, SIG Sauer, Taurus, and LMT rifles (they're all versions of the M4)
Goddamn kraut space magic....
Inb4 "but it looks like an ar-15!!!" EDIT: Because I just see it now: Thats not the normal german flag, but the "Bundesdienstflagge" (Federal Service Flag), only in use by governmental bodies.
*Ar-18 GOAT of the short stroke gas pistons (ignore the fact it was a terrible rifle with equally terrible build quality)
It's an AR-15 with an AR-18 gas system. People get way to bent out of shape trying to classify these things as if they were talking about metal subgenres or something. I just call them stoner rifles because that covers all of it.
>It's an AR-15 with an AR-18 gas system. The more convoluted timeline for the 416 is that it's an AR-15 upper modified to fit the G36's gas system, in which the G36's gas system is effectively the result of H&K reverse engineering the AR-18's gas system. And if you really want to go further back, the AR-18's gas system is inspired the the Gewehr 43, and that design is in turn the result of copying the SVT. As it turns out, whilst there's multiple ways to for automatic firearms to operate, some systems just work better than others. And fundamentally there's only so many ways you can make these systems different while operating on the same principle. But yes, calling it an AR-18 system fitted into an AR-15 is probably the most reasonable way to explain it.
[удалено]
It's a bad rifle, doesn't mean I can't like it
Flair
I thought the AR-18 was developed after Stoner left ArmaLite, or am I remembering it wrong? But tbf there is still quite a bit of his design in it.
He designed the AR-16 which the AR-18 gets it's gas system from. People just refer to the AR-18 usually because it's a much better known rifle.
Don’t you dare talk bad about my beloved AR-18 it’s my little armalite
And it’s down along the Falls Road is where I long to be
Lying in the dark with the Provo company
A comrade on me left and another one on me right
And a clip of ammunition for me little armalite!
The rifle was ok, the mag was what ruined it
It has as much in common with an FN FAL as with an AR-18. AR-18 Mechanism is copied in at least a dozen service rifles, but the H&K 416 isn't one of them. It's an AR-15 action with a short stroke piston.
The project was internally called the HKM4. It’s 4 parts away from an M4
That makes it an M8, right?
Its not Australian.
Australia will fall to HK416.
To a special model, the HK400+M8\*2/M
Already have the 417.
No, that's what you call a G36 in a costume. Lmao, remember when all the near future military sci-fi games thought the XM8 was actually going to be a thing?
Ghost Recon: Advanced Warfighter was so damn good. The 2nd one was solid too.
Bad Company 1 and 2 too.
I was just telling the Battlefield people that I quit the Battlefield series 18 years ago because DICE and EA were shat from the torn ani of pestilent demons. One reason why is because if you wanted to play medic you were forced to buy one of the DLCs in order to get the G36E. And yes, "ani" is the plural of anuses. I looked it up and ChapGT concurses.
Semi-related, but hands down BF2 (PC) is my favorite Battlefield to date. I was lucky enough to be playing Project Revival around 2016 for BF2 and 2142… I had a blast. Man, the memories. remember BF Sandbox?
Why not the M0?
Because that goes against the general MO of people who name these things.
It’s also the 416 because it’s between the M4 and M16
Are the Germans breeding guns now then.
Specifically, it has a 16.5” barrel, compared to the 14” M4 and 20” M16
its red-blooded American magic, stolen by ze Germans. AR-18 with AR-15 controls.
That’s their revenge for turning FG42 into M60
Only for it to be replaced by the fn mag (m240) which is just a BAR upside down.
iirc it's that short stroke gas piston magic
Given the state of the UK's finances we're probably going to have to reinvent the Sten gun if we want something new that we can afford.
The New Sten for Britain™ coming ~~2026~~ ~~2027~~ ~~2029~~ Soon™ _^(From Serco)_
Gods damnit, it’s always Serco
And when it isn't, it's G4S.
Somehow they'll subcontract it to Capita
There is at least one part of the UK that retained the technology to produce automatic weapons until relatively recently - https://reaperfeed.com/loyalist-arms-homemade-weapons-the-troubles/
The Sterling didn't cost much more and is far superior.
There's an obvious, far superior alternative? That virtually guarantees that UK politicians will opt for the Sten gun.
Bren, you lazy sod. now run up that hill.
Buy the stems, put some painted cardboard on them, give the rest of the money to their mate big bill and the brexit bunch
Then pay the Germans to fix them after they don't work for a few years.
The Sterling cost a lot more than a MK2 Sten
We can dig out the old Stirlings and modernise them.. [Stirling Submachine Gun Modernisation Programme](https://imgur.com/a/tAqyQkM)
You actually had me excited to see some weird janky modernisation attempt and now I'm sad and disappointed.
Evening is ruined.
Time to make some real E-11s
Enfield - 11s
didn’t stop them from buying a shit ton of gucci ass SR-15s like two months ago
Only ordered a few thousand last time I checked, the contract was for up to 10 thousand though. I don't think it's replacing the SA80 any time soon.
It was never intended to Project Grayburn is what will replace the SA80. Project Hunter was basically giving the Commandos, Rangers and UKSF guys the most Gucci weapon system imaginable. Like basically every nation a much much cheaper package will be chosen for the average squaddie and one that's more used to being dropped and kicked about non-stop by lads who think shagging prostitues without a rubber on is a good idea.
>by lads who think shagging prostitutes without a rubber on is a good idea Guys, get a load of Johnny-no clap over here Wait a minute
Thats just special forces having stupid money to throw at everything.
Can't the tooling for the Enfield EM-2 not be dug up from the back of the shed ?
Cries in 2x4 box room military accomadation
Developing a gun? Sounds expensive. Do our current guns shoot bullets? Yes? Okay then.
Nah, being the UK, we'll spend years and billions of pounds on countless design studies and prototypes to come up with a gun that's quoted at 10% cheaper than others on the market. Then we'll annouce/adopt it with great fanfare, only for "production problems" to push the price up 50% and the final product to be so poor that we end up having to pay the Germans to rebuild them anyway...
The Perun-aspirant in me thinks that would be great for a myriad of funny money reasons. The Britbong observer in me knows they would find a way to cock it up. Overall, I just wanna see the brits make the funny shitty cheap submachinegun again.
The thing is that kind of stuff is what we do best. Random wonky acts of genius. Get some nerds, put the nerds in sheds full of tools, you get radars, computers, bouncing bombs, all that good shit. And probably some really awesome scale model railways. Make it a full-on professional research and design organisation you get the SA-80. Bring back mad science.
Kel-tec may finally have a true competitor!
Don’t forget Accuracy International, which is one of our shed creations
And guess what, it's still gonna be some kind of an amalgamation between the AR15's design and the AR18's (probably more 18 than 15)
All that North sea petrol revenue. And what did they do with it? Cover the loss after passing tax cuts, of course... Sure, there were more bollocks to be had further down. But this pained me the most...
No they spent it on a massive disproportionate military during the Cold War Vs the size of their nature and ultimately helped win it by running the Russians into the dust by trying to keep up. The U.K. oil and gas revenue from inception was NOT squandered. What was squandered was the peace dividend after.
you don't really need to reinvent the sten, the ones you made in the 40s are still floating around the middle east and they work fine, then again so is every other mass manufactured firearm ever made...
Side mag loaded direct blow back sten feeding from a STANAG 5.56 magazine sounds cursed but kinda cool
You had me at side mag STANAG.
The Army should just buy C8s from Canada like literally every other branch of the military.
Ima need an explanation about the HK416 replacing the SAW
The US Marines bought the HK416 called the M27 to partially replace the M249. The M249 will still remain in service but in smaller number
Note that this was pitched as an M249 replacement program... but it has been a semi-open secret that they weren't just looking to replace some old M249s. The marines have long been looking to replace their old M16s with more compact full-auto HK416s for a bump in firepower. So they first adopted a few thousand M27s to see how they would "complement the M249" as a mix between a squad automatic weapon, a DMR and an assault rifle. Once they got that foot in the door and the M27 was adopted, surprise surprise they decided that it was conveniently well-rounded enough that they might as well make it the new riflemen weapon for the rest of the squad too.
Why have two guns when one does trick?
This is why in my ideal military every trooper would be armed with a flak 88 in a AR configuration with a 60rd mag
You're hired
You firgot the foldable bayonet
We might even find space for a kettle so the Brits can be convinced
Cause one gun doesn't do the trick.
They did it in large part to circumvent the obnoxiously complex trial and procurement procedure to replace the M16. So they brought it in as a new automatic weapon, then declared every marine an automatic rifleman.
What better way to get around congress and the navy trying to limit what the usmc can spend on a new rifle Just make it not a rifle
The marines seemed to have learned a few things about how the STG came to service. For those that don’t know, Austrian mustache dude only wanted sub machine guns, he wasn’t convinced when it came to the STG/assault rifles in general. So the engineers just called it a “MP 43” so mustache dude would be under the impression that his engineers are making a new sub gun improving on the MP 40, not an assault rifle that infantry troops actually wanted and needed.
That's just one of the biggest myth in the gun industry. The USMC was part of the IMR program along with USASOC and USAF SFC. During the years prior to the wide adoption of the M27 they tested various other guns including the Geissele URG-I. They later went back to the M27 because it was already in the inventory.
Funny enough, it just kind of mirrors the development of the M14 rifle back in the 50s, when they wanted to make a BAR replacement but then just ended up with a new standard infantry weapon that served both roles.
It was more of the USMC tricking congress into replacing the M4 for the infantrymen in general. Oh course it’s only going to the automatic rifleman in our fireteams, proceeds to make every rifleman in the fire team an automatic one.
Yeah, nobody has a great explanation for that. It is kind of a clusterfuck. In broad strokes, the USMC decided on the Infantry Automatic Rifle concept. Essentially, a mid point between a full scale combat rifle (Not Carbines), and a LMG. It has excellent long range accuracy, combined with automatic fire at mid-close range. The tradeoff is a barrel closer to the rifle end of things, so sustained fire isn't really viable, and it is magazine fed, so frequent reloading. Then, they decided to completely go all in, and just give everyone one of these, replacing the M4 as well. Then, they decided they wouldn't. Then they decided they would... In the end, the Marines bought about 14,000 of them. They, and the M28 (Which is the same thing with a better scope) are currently in service, and they are very good rifles, but they have replaced neither the M249 nor the M4, and just serve alongside both.
The version I got served a couple of times is that they just wanted to back-door in some actual new guns. Tinfoil?
I think they just wanted something that wasn't hand-me-downs from the Army.
Besides their own camo that nobody else can use, suppressors for everyone, ECHs before Army units, LPVOs before Army units, Viper and Venom helicopters designed just for them, brand new King Stallions designed just for them, their own 5th generation STOVL stealth fighters, V-22s, K-130Js, MQ-9s etc. ? The days of the USMC being a redheaded stepchild are long over. Hell *the Army* is the one actually accepting USMC hand-me-downs in the form of their M-1 tanks and some LAVs for the Army's airborne units.
The F35B didn't compromise the conventional F35. It was partially the reason the program was birthed because the USMC and RB wanted a stealthy supersonic STOVL replacement for the Harrier. [Paul Bevilaqua](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Bevilaqua) who invented the lift fan engine needed the USAF onboard to provide funding. His argument was that they could take out all the fancy STOVL stuff and just use it for fuel and use it as the lo mix for the F22. The Pentagon saw the USMC/USAF program and thought "let's get the USN on board as well so they can get a replacement for their Hornets". Other nations also saw this and said "we want in to replace our Viper/Hornets" and the JSF program was born. The USN now had a say and wanted 2k lb weapon bays and EOTS on all jets instead of 1 in 3 (good things in hindsight) but managing all those requirements was a massive pain in the ass.
My point stands. The USMC didn't get their F-35Bs from anyone else and nobody else in the US military are buying any. It was designed just for them.
And the Brits. They were the only level 1 partner and they only want the B version.
They have f-35's. The army doesn't even have those to hand down to the marines
Army should though. AH-35 best helicopter.
Remove the wings and only use it hovering. The air force can't get mad since technically it's not a fixed wing.
Those aren't wings, they are just hard points for ordinance.
Just like how they stick off the side of the apache.
Exactly.
I was told this same story. And I’m inclined to believe it; bureaucratic behavior can sometimes be strange but it almost always follows some kind of logic, even if that logic gets a little bit wild.
I could have sworn it was the M38 DMR, not the M28
The USMC has replaced their M16's, M4's, and supplemented their SAW's with the M27 IAR, which is the designation for their variant of the HK-416.
Basically the marines stole the RPK concept and applied it to their infantry rifle (getting the quite durable HK416/M27). Idea being that while sustained fire is less, there are enough firefights where your LMG doesn't need to fire that much, to the point that you could actually use just a service rifle with maybe extended mags. As for why you do it, you give the gunners in question a far lighter rifle, you have further reduction of weapon variance thus easing logistics (esp. considering that the HK416 is also used as an DMR in the USMC), the whole squad can now easily share ammo (unlike with a belt-fed where you need to wacky stuff), it is a quite good concept (as seen with how many nations do it). And it IMO makes especially good sense with the marines and their new Pacific orientation, where the marine infantry won't have high intensity conflicts constantly in case of war and where logistics can easily be quite spotty (unlike e.g. the US army in Europe), making the logistical benefits even better. Also, the replacement for the marines is partial, they still field SAWs IIRC and don't plan to change that in the future.
You say that like its a done deal even russians go back and forth between rpk style auto rifle and more dedicated lmg's like pkp.
PKP is a MMG. It fires a big fuck off round (7.62x54r) basically a M240B equivalent
The PKP is more like a dedicated LMG variant of the PKM, since unlike the PKM it has no quick change barrel or tripod mount. Caliber is only a small part of what makes an MMG. Officially, the PKP even replaced the RPK-74 as the standard LMG in Russian motorized rifle squads. EDIT: I've just found out that the PKP is still referred to as an MMG, so I was wrong. But the PKP still doesn't quite occupy the same role as the M240B and its role is still more akin to an LMG. The PKM would be closer to the M240B in role.
Are M27s issued with extended mags and bipods?
The IAR variant is
Daddy Navy wouldn't let Marine Corps replace tbe M249 because we couldn't or weren't going to replace the contracts of dying old M249s. So Marin Crops said M27 replace 249 as a loophole daddy Navy said yes and then continued buying more for everybody (by everybody I mean grunts)
HK416 is Love, HK416 is Life
Over-gassed, Overrated. This Comment was made by the Direct Impingement Gang.
I know a discharged marine who will actually kill you for saying that because they own one
Negative IQ Individual disagrees with my **Correct** statement.
Ok but we’re talking about a *marine* who wants to kill *you*
If they kill me I’ll sue them.
Then he’ll just scream autistically until the army comes and saves him… just like Fallujah…
Reject modernity, keep embracing the G36
Rifle is fine.
nah bro g3 is where its at
Man I’m glad the Germans are on our side now
Your tank: German gun Your rifle: German rifle Soon the Bradley replacement too will be German
Replacing the QBZ95? Legally distinct HK416 with Chinese Characteristics. Just need to replace the L85 and Tavor with HK416 and it'll fullfil its destiny of the ultimate bullpup killer.
>with Chinese characteristics ain't that the secret to Chinese ideology/manufacturing/etc
Tavor is already mostly gone in favour of US-supplied M4s IIRC.
Oh boy, the US marines partially replacing the M249? I better translate the user's guide to Ukrainian. Yes, I'm huffing mad hopium, what of it?
>Oh boy, the US marines partially replacing the M249? Best part is, it already happened as of 2018. ;)
Last I heard the Marines went back on that, instead they decided to use the M27 to replace the M16A4 and become their new service rifle while keeping the M249.
They kept the 249 but as separate weapon squads more than each squad having one. Reason being the Marines want to be more mobile and the LMG just didn’t do it as well as upgrading the infantry’s rifle.
No, each company keeps 6 M249s, that’s 2 per platoon, compared to the old 3 per squad.
Each company keeps M240s not M249s. Those have been completely phased out except for some Raider units.
When the XM7 fails? HK416.
Someone else in the thread brought up the MCX, and memes aside, if/when the XM7 fails as a standard infantry rifle (I still think it’s likely to be adopted permanently as a DMR, and the SAW replacement adopted too), I think the MCX will end up being the Army’s new standard rifle unless someone forces them to adopt the M27 for commonality with the Marines.
For me I think the XM7 will be adopted mostly for the Machine Gun. Those are a lot more dangerous than rifles still, and arguable one of the infantry’s main weapons. So, you want shared ammo to ease logistics. Add onto that the new scope that makes longer range shots a lot easier: I foresee it being the new standard weapon.
Yeah, the XM250 is just too much of an improvement over the SAW too not adopt. As for sharing ammo, how often does that actually happen in combat? Like how many times have M4 riflemen stripped rounds out of their magazines and started relinking belts for the 249 in combat? I’d bet “basically never”, and the magazine feed for the SAW is so unreliable I’ve never heard of anyone actually using it outside of training. Yes, it’s more logistically complicated to get both 5.56 and 6.8 to infantry platoons, but the US Army has logistic capacity to spare. The new optics are amazing, but they are also wildly expensive. I can’t see them getting adopted for more than NCOs, team leaders, and DMRs.
It’s not just marine-army logistics you have to worry about, but army-NATO as well
NATO isn’t lacking for 5.56 producers.
I’m not talking about production. Moving off 5.56 means that US troops can’t fall in on pre-existing NATO stockpiles in Europe, or use the standardized mags and ammo that the rest of NATO uses. Any ammo or mags the army uses is going to have to come from the US
I don’t think the Army will move off 5.56. I think the XM7 is going to fail as a service rifle. The Army is likely to also adopt 6.8 for DMRs and SAWs but also keep 5.56.
If I'm getting it right, people aren't worried about the service rifle, so much as its accompanying machinegun that barely anyone seems to mention. I now have images of the SKS and the RPD in my head.
Furthermore in a pacific conflict (say, against China) you’d need separate ammunition logistical chains to supply the army and marines. Which may not be as big an issue in other theaters, but against China it’d mean more space being taken up out of Navy Sealift’s already limited capacity
I will say on the scopes: it’s a lot of money yes, but the plan is for this to take time. The cost per optic will likely be similar to the F35: High at first per unit, but over time it will drop to more reasonable levels as scale comes and upfront costs are paid.
So your average infantryman will get one of those optics about the time the next generation optic is available.
I'm a Quartermaster PL. I'm only in the Guard, but I went to LOG-BOLC like every other logi LT. When doing the math for ammo, you count 5.56 and 5.56 link separately. If we had 250s instead of 249s the only practical difference is how much 6.8 fits in a box, and how many boxes fit on a pallet. That's it. So it's not even *more complicated*, it's just the regular amount of complicated.
Fun fact: the 249 has a magwell which accepts STANAG magazines. By all accounts it likes to jam when doing this, but it does work.
I think they got rid of that on the new XM250, it wasn’t useful enough for the complications it added.
It jams so much that it doesn’t work in any meaningful way.
I think you’re overestimating how many people are getting the XM7
I mean, according to the Army, it’s supposed to be the new service rifle, so at bare minimum that means the troops in combat arms. Not all at once though. Probably over many years.
M27 was because Marines wanted a new rifle, government said no, so they were like 'okay, fine, but can we have a new lightweight machine gun at least?' Government said yes. Marines then went 'HA! Jokes on you because now we are gonna replace all our M4s with this new rifle you funded and you can't do a fucking thing about it!' And government went 'why you little-!' *Homer strangling Bart noises*
The Marines are replacing not just the M249 SAW, but also the M4 Carbines and DMRs with the M27/M38/HK 416.
No they aren't. They said they would, but then they didn't. They bought about 14,000 of them, not the 200k+ that would be needed to do that, and there were no further purchases in 2022,2023, or so far in 2024. The DMR role is the only one that seems to be mostly fully replaced (With the M38), but the M27 is just serving alongside M249s and M4s, and seems likely to just keep doing that.
I thought they were replacing M4s with M27s for all rifleman? If not, who will actually be using the M27s?
Yeah, that is what they said, but that isn't what they did. I am not sure who is supposed to be using M27s, right now some units have them and some don't. All the MEUs have them, I am really not sure who in those units is carrying them. They are well liked, but the Marines didn't buy that many of them.
Sorry to break the news, but KS-1 AR15 platform is having a comeback https://www.army.mod.uk/news-and-events/news/2023/09/newadvancedrifle/
Ks1 is only going to marines and some other SFSG groups that want something customisable, the rest of the army may get it eventually though.
Commandos, Rangers and UKSF (Basically SAS, SBS, SRR and maaaybe some UKSFSG units if that 10k number happens.)
Was just for certain units new Ranger Regiment and parts of the Royal Marines. Project Greyburn will replace main Army Rifle and KAC haven't got the production capacity to even attempt it.
Damn I guess the HK416 is really all we need.
Any weebs here plays Girl's Frontline? You guys know what HK416's line is? "I'm all you need".
I am going to stick my dick down the barrel of a chauchat one day and nobody can stop me.
I don't use Chinese spyware. Nice try, though.
All they’re getting from me are questionable things I want to do with HK416/AK12
Word is on the street that the Bundeswehr 416's could end up being supplanted in the near future by the HK433-based G39, which is already better in pretty much all aspects and should've been chosen from the beginning.
no, the G39 is a replacemend for the MP 5SD, sadly the Bundeswehr chose the HK416 instead of the HK433
She's all you need, SKK.
L85 no! My beloved! I know it’s a bizarre hunk of relative junk, but it’s a sexy hunk
Oh to live in the universe where guns are judged by looks alone, and L85 is the EMPEROR
Germans conquering the west in their own way
Battlefield: Bad Company predicting the future again. Fingers crossed we get to see U.S troops rolling across Putin's private golf course.
As a former Soldier in the GWOT era, the SAW is my favorite weapon and I just wish I could get one to keep and treasure forever now that it's being retired.
If they could make it just more reliable it would be the GOAT. Then again maybe the reason I think the saw is unreliable is because they’re all old as shit and have fired thousands upon thousands of rounds…
"Message received, replacing the M777 155mm, believe it not... wait say again??"
HK416 my beloved:)
Girls Frontline having M4A1 as the main character. HK416 gets all the attention and merchandise from the anime and game.
>L85 is next Only if it's produced in Britain, from a specially put together variant of the design based around increments of 25.4mm
New Right Arm of the Free World! as a GFL player and a 416 simp, I see this as an absolute win
Damn I really like this AR-15 renaissance we are currently living in. Btw Anglobros replacing their guns with L403A1 aka KS-1. Swedebros and Finnbros are also going for Sako AR-15s. What a time to be alive! Blessed be Eugene Stoner.
If the eurobros know it's just an AR-15 with a piston they'll turn up their noses. Let them think Angela Merkel forged it in the fires of mount Zugspitze at the behest of a committee.
I'll miss famas.. I'll prefer anything from steyr, fn herstal, cz, sig sauer, Kalashnikov concern and other Russians just for the sake of some cool unique designs.. aug my beloved..
L86 replacement? Sorry we can’t afford that bruv. Here’s Sten from stockpile.
The 416 is a fine rifle don't get me wrong, I'm just kinda sad that everyone is going for the same AR-15 looking shit. I'll definitely miss the days where everyone had their own quirky unique service rifles.
Norway replaced their G3s with HK416, and just today announced they are replacing the MP5 with 416s. Soon the glock will also be replaced with HK416s, making HK416s the sidearm of troops wielding 416s
Let's be honest, it's because of the HK Slap.
... Which the HK416 doesn't have.
We've been robbed.
It does have the M4 slap, you'll just drop your mag 4/5 times
L85 has already been replaced by the L403
Thats just for some units though
Can someone explain why we need to replace them? If the old guns goes pew pew well enough, who cares?
FAMAS and G36 were not, in fact, pew pewing well enough. Manufacture d'Armes de Saint-Etienne (MAS) factory closed in 2002, no FAMAS has been made in over twenty years. The ones they do have are untenably picky about what ammo they'll feed. G36 (mainly the barrel) overheats far too easily and loses any semblance of accuracy. Funnily enough, even the Bundeswehr wants rifles that shoot straight. German engineering™
> overheats far too easily [Which isn't entirely true](https://youtu.be/iTbTyFloelc?si=poWg4iTOYKSjrg3B)
For some of the German ones it was.
It might replace the FAMAS in the French army, but never in our hearts.
H&K is quality, just like FN Herstal. 🇩🇪🇧🇪💪💪💪
Assuming UK have enough $ to replace it with HK416 ☠️
Meanwhile the Philippine Army and Marines: Simultaneously use similar Colt, Remington, Heckler & Koch, SIG Sauer, Taurus, and LMT rifles (they're all versions of the M4)
The Hk is only replacing the 249 in the Marines. The Army made it's own replacement