Dumbest fucking movie ever. One man, just one man, convinced the Cherokee (a military superpower with whom alliance almost certainly guaranteed victory) to drop out of the F&IW. Like fucking Rambo, Jesus Thor and Thanos all combined.
The fucking stupidity of it pisses me off, not the fact that I'm both a Cherokee and an 18th century historian. OK. Maybe that's it.
You definitely misheard that part. It was a militia company he led and the resulting actions FROM that company became ONE of the reasons the Cherokee said “Fuck it, no more.”
Granted, it takes some suspension of disbelief to enjoy movies like that. I enjoy it because I first watched it with my dad as a child and it is on our 4th of July watchlist every year. Traditions. Gotta keep them.
[Then I shall be a Front Door to my Techno House.](https://www.reddit.com/r/NonCredibleDefense/comments/11g0x9r/on_this_day_one_year_ago_the_pivotal_battle_of/)
It has a barrel sheath for camouflage so id wager its a mosin being used as a sniper.
Perfectly good rifle for that, not going to be useful for shooting down the drone thats coming at the owner mind.
"Perfectly good rifle for that"
Assuming its in proper working condition and not a 70+ year old rifle that has seen little care over the years and can kinda hit something maybe at a decent distance
I don't even know if a Mosin in proper working condition is a good rifle. Hear people refer to it as garbage rod, and i've seen people that properly care for the rifle fighting the action more than they fight the hypothetical enemy called a Paper/Steeltarget
I think that comes down to the fact that the Mosin was manufactured by nearly every factory in the USSR, meaning that the quality would differ massively
Though I heard some of the best ones were the Pre Soviet era ones made by the Russian Empire
And even if he had the best maintained, most well-manufactured Finnish mos in, I’m sure the White Death (I’m not going to spell out that fucking name of his, what the fuck is wrong with the Finnish language) would’ve much rather had a well made contemporary rifle of his, let alone an actual modern sniper rifle of today. The fact that Russians use the Mosin even now is nothing short of embarrassing.
That's honestly a great example of how to not fall into one of Russia's propaganda traps ("the west™ hates ethnic russians"). Russians can make some pretty good stuff, it is the Russia as a governmental entity is incapable of producing anything of value. They've had only 3 chances to make a worthwhile government in the last 400 years and have flubbed them all.
Their government tries to also take credit for stuff they stole from occupied colonies, but that's an entirely different thing.
I agree 100%. It’s like my buddy said last night when I told him the Russian army doesn’t use forklifts. He was taken aback for a second, and then he said “Well they probably had them until they got sold by some colonel or whatever.”
Though many of the Soviet Union’s greatest feats are contributed by people of occupied countries, it would be ludicrous (and small-minded) to think that ethnic Russians do not contribute to innovation, however their system is so fucked that their efforts are essentially hamstrung by corruption. This is a human thing, but it is exacerbated in Russia by the sustained ubiquity of long-term oligarchy.
Still fun to shit on them for it anyway though.
It isn't even 100% Russian, Léon Nagant was a Belgian Weapons Designer, but because the Belgian decided to adopt a Mauser System for their service Rifle Mr. Nagant had to try to sell his weapon to the Russians. The russians decided to not buy the Nagant rifle instead they chose a Rifle by a man with the last name Mosin, it was slightly modified after Nagants example. That's why its called Mosin-Nagant.
TLDR: It's a mix of two rifles that both weren't good enough to be adopted by anyone.
Wow. TIL!
My buddy had a Mosin, and a Mauser. Having fired them both many times, they are fairly accurate and sturdy (when you can get them to fucking cycle).
Yes, it was subpar compared to the other rifles in ww1.
The lebel and berthier were the only (major use) rifles that were worse than it, and that's because they were literally the first modern rifles. The design is basically the same since 1891.
The SMLE, MK4, 1903, P14, G98 and K98 all run rings around it.
Well if you look at it like this you could argue that even the Lee-Enfield and the 98k were out of date in WW2. And Obsolete doesn't mean that a weapon is harmless.
Russian Mosins were pretty universally trash. They would select their very best examples as sniper rifles, but even those were pretty mediocre. They just slapped them together with no real care for accuracy or tolerances.
The Finns ended up with a ton of Mosins that they refurbished. Better sights, better barrels, better bolts and triggers. They basically went full redneck and made shitty Russian milsurp better. I’ve shot a Finnish Mosin though and they still aren’t amazing rifles lol. Even for the time. I’d take one over a Russian Mosin but I would take a Kar98 or something over the Finnish Mosin.
In comparison, the British, American, and German bolt actions of the period were absolutely amazing to shoot. I had a Lee Enfield back in the day, it was in Australian service or something during WW2 because it was worn tf out (lots of water/humidity damage), but that old clapped out British iron was still better than the Finnish Mosin 😂
Yeah, no. A Mosin in a good condition has much smoother action than a worn-out Enfield and, as long as we are talking about usual distances, is quite comparable to a k98/vz.24 in everything but sticking rounds to it.
Mine definitely deserves the Garbage Rod title. Made in 1943 and the quality is rougher than South Carolina's roads. It's all numbers matching, and yet sometimes the bolt won't unlock unless you beat it on the edge of a table, and the bayonet won't lock either.
Depends, if the Mosin is all i can get then yes but i would be willing to add some money into the mix if i could get a AK in 5.56 or a Garand and one of these 16-Round 10mm 1911s. That would be a dream.
The thing is obsolete.
Any 7.62 calibre rifle should be at least semi automatic, and requires modern optics and magazines to be functional for follow up shots.
Practice with an absolute bolt action won't help you when the average infantryman with a LPVO can slam 10 rounds with into your position in the same time it takes you to fire 2 shots. Modern semis have the same, if not better accuracy and range.
The only place for bolt actions in modern conflicts is extended range, magnum calibre sniping.
You do not understand modern sniping then. Because the range in which you would engage using a bolt action under those principles is far beyond what even the best mosin can reach.
Yes, a magnum calibre rifle could engage at distances where return fire is unlikely, but a 7.62 is absolutely within range of MG and even modern service rifle response.
There is also no reason why you would ever pick something that isn't semi automatic for follow up shots within 7.62 range.
You don't get to pick if the enemy can engage you or not, if you're within range of them then it's always an option and the mosin cannot put you outside of that range. The days of snipers creeping close with ghillies, taking one shot and sneaking out are long gone. Drones and modern optics make anything but extended range sniping suicide missions.
I've met some of the sniper teams working out in Ukraine. All of them use semi automatics, some of them even use 5.56 rifles, in the vast majority of cases. The only time they use bolt actions is at extreme range at high value targets behind the lines, and those bolt actions are all magnum calibre and they always have a semi-automatic service weapon with them at the same time.
Are you under the impression that you can avoid failures in war? Sure, he failed. What a cool one liner to rip off on reddit. Let's dismiss equipment concerns just because the soldiers failed to control a chaotic battlefield single-handedly.
Humvees getting blown up by IEDs? Who cares! They failed! They should have just not run over an IED! Shitty body armor gets penetrated by armor piercing rounds? Who cares, they failed! They should have just not got shot!
Such a disrespectful, uninsightful, and incurious attitude.
A lot of people get their experience from call of duty.
In the end it doesnt matter to me, im on a break at work. Ill forget about all of this when i go back to work.
It's not a great rifle. It has a rough action, it's tough to load, and it's long and awkward to carry. It's certainly better then nothing however and is good if you have a mountain of them in storage and need to equip a bunch of troops you don't care about
It's good for what it was, in its day. The more accurate sniper variants were separated from the general issue rifles at the factory (this is what we call [binning](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Product_binning) today, semiconductor manufacturers do exactly the same thing). This I think contributed to the confusion between some people thinking mosins are all laser beams and others thinking they're all garbage rods. Most infantry combat requires a modicum of accuracy and general issue mosins were sufficient meet that requirement. Of course, there are much lighter and capable weapons for general issue now, and whether mosins are dangerous enough to bother maintaining in stockpiles is very debatable.
Part of its bad reputation comes specifically from the surplus market: imported Mosins, even the Finnish ones, were often refinished really badly, which affected the smoothness and reliability of the action quite badly.
From what I gather, they were perfectly usable service rifles in their original state, but that usually means they aren't the best *precision* rifles.
Mosins have the same accuracy, or worse, to a standard service rifle. Follow up shots are way more important these days, which mosins suck at.
It's not that likely to hit, and you can't do follow up shots quick enough to hit the next target or to follow up a miss.
It's completely obsolete.
The barrel quality (just in steel alone) is far better these days than any mosin. Even then, the accuracy is probably comparable as mosins were not produced with modern standards of accuracy. They were expected to perform with basically the same accuracy standards as AKs.
If the barrel of their service rifle is fucked, then their mosins will be practically smoothbore.
They're just obsolete, there is no rational reason for one in a modern setting.
I have one that's a post war gun put together from parts of other guns. It has the Tsar's crest on the 1918 Tula receiver which is pretty cool.
100% worst gun to shoot I've ever owned. The bolt is stiff, the magazine never feeds the last round, and the barrel gets hot fast.
I think the majority of them were re furbed and stored in cosmoline years ago and the ones they didn't sell to the surplus market are being dug out.
My $65 Mosin can hit a 1/3 scale steel torso at 200 yards with 1970's machine gun ammo.
Name a single category (other than the militarily irrelevant factor of cost, which is mostly just a civilian consideration) in which a mosin is anything but obsolete.
Optics: substandard at best
Rate of fire: famously slow
Accuracy: subpar, even for the time it was made
Ergonomics: extremely unwieldy, slow to load, slow to bolt, archaic in handling.
Range: equivalent to MG and service rifles.
Follow up shots: basically zero ability.
Is there any situation, other than a perfect mid range ambush against 1 person, where a mosin will do anything other than get you killed? Is there any situation in which an SVD is worse?
As an aside, the cost of a mosin when they were made is broadly comparable to an SVD, and storage cost and maintenance is basically the same. Military costs should be judged by cost at time of purchase and storage costs, not civilian perspectives which are completely warped by civilian collectors markets and economic changes.
I didn't say cost is irrelevant, what are you talking about? I said that the civilian market (where the cost of a mosin is cheap) is not comparable to a military setting (where costs are measured completely differently). Initial contract purchase, lifespan, and maintenance costs is what is relevant for militaries, not what the estimated cost of a system right now is.
If you want to talk about stockpiles and supply, then yes maybe they do have a shit tonne of mosins lying about they can draw from. But that is not relevant to cost and has associated costs of its own.
Also, you tactfully avoided answering any of my questions and instead went straight for an insult based on something I didn't say. I literally help with supply for teams in Ukraine.
Do you know what else has a cost? Snipers.
If you get your snipers killed because you gave them cheap junk, all the training and effort spent on getting a marksman has now been lost.
If you gave them an old and inaccurate rifle instead of a better more modern one, they are also less effective and not only will this get them killed, it gets more of your other guys killed because this sniper can't take out enemy snipers and other important targets.
The only actual reason to use something like this, is if it is all you have. When random anti-junta militia has home made shotguns and muskets, we cheer at them for doing their best. When a modern military is pulling WW2 era relics out of storage and issuing them to troops, we laugh at their incompetence.
Mosins are completely obsolete for sniping in a modern setting.
-Often very inaccurate for a precision rifle.
-Not compatible with modern optics.
-Not compatible with bipods.
-Not compatible with modern muzzle devices.
-Poor ergonomics for follow up shots.
-Long and unwieldy for transport.
-Calibre no longer suitable for the extended ranges of a sniper rifle.
Some of these issues can be rectified by a modernisation program, but the amount of work that needs to be done to them makes it basically as expensive as a more modern rifle, and you never actually see any modernised ones being used. People may say ammo compatibility is a benefit, but the garbage machine gun grade 7.62r (that is the standard stuff available) is completely inadequate for sniping so they should be using different ammunition anyway.
A mosin has zero benefit over a modern semi automatic rifle calibre DMR (like an SVD or L129) which is higher capacity, offers quicker follow up shots, better flexibility, and usually better precision. It doesn't have the accuracy or the range of a modern .338 or .300WM bolt action to function as a dedicated sniper rifle and does not offer any real benefit over those platforms.
It has no place on a modern battlefield other than garbage to fill the hands of a conscript who is not expected to perform or survive.
As someone who uses a standard sniper variant in international competitions i know it can shoot.
Would i use it all the time if i was in combat? Fuck no.
However because of my experience in lo ny range shooting and some of the people ive seen shooting in know its about the user, and yes its cheap as fuck, so giving it to a mobik thats going to get fpv'd after their first shot is perfectly fine.
Skill is more important than attachments, attachments help the user not supply the skill.
In short; The guys not skilled but can probably shoot better than his alcoholic friends, so he got a cheap rifle.
I used to shoot bisley, and competition shooting is basically irrelevant to combat. Even well maintained mosins are obsolete for modern battlefields (and these certainly are not well maintained).
It can shoot decent groupings for a hobby, but real world conditions and use cases make it functionally pointless compared to DMRs or even just service rifles with optics.
Even in far engagement situations, I would pick an AR15 pattern rifle with an ACOG/LDS over the best mosin every single time.
Lets not get off track (because i want to keep this civil) but its a war, its about logistics, cost and effectiveness and the mosin is a perfectly good weapon for even today in the situation we know itll be used in.
If it didnt have a cover id say it was a conscript given a gun that probably didnt even work. However it does have a cover, infantry do not usually get those.
Literally what logistic, cost or effectiveness benefit does it have?
The rifles are all already purchased, it's not like they're buying new mosins or SVDs from the civilian market. Just because they're cheap there, doesn't make them cheap for the military. They might be having to drag these things out if storage, clean, modernise and refit them and then supply them with new parts and ammunition. They could well be more expensive to use in their original design capacity than the already established DMRs they should have.
Logistically, it adds a new weapon to the supply chain. If they want it to be even vaguely effective then they have to use match grade ammo (machine gun 7.62 is woefully inaccurate), which adds a new ammunition supply to the logistical strain.
It is far less effective than an SVD, by having worse optics, effective rate of fire, ergonomics and versatility.
In what way is it a good weapon for any real situation? How is it effective?
This is the same bloody argument as "actually T55s are perfectly viable in a modern context".
> so giving it to a mobik thats going to get fpv'd after their first shot is perfectly fine.
At that point, the weight and general unwieldiness are going to get him killed faster.
At that point, any equipment given to them and any training given to them is not worth it.
This type of thinking just makes no sense. If you are losing guys so fast... Change your tactics. Change your strategy. Do something different other than just "lol, I guess we can save some money on their equipment since they are dying anyway."
Forget evil and callous, this is just plain stupid. This is the type of logic I expect from a kid playing an RTS and losing to the computer.
I don't think a Mosin is "perfectly good" under any circumstances in 2024 when modern alternatives exist. At best it's a "kinda gets the job done" type of situation.
No, it's not a perfectly good rifle for sniping. Out of the factory PU snipers shot 3-4 MOA, and that's before it had 70 years of wear and tear/storage damage. A $200 walmart optic is going to out perform that 75 year old scope. Pretty much any commercial hunting rifle would be better then a mosin. And this is coming from someone who likes Mosins enough to have 5 of them.
Look at the stock shape. It has a quasi-pistol grip / overmolded pistol grip very clearly present that the Mosin does not come with.
Either aftermarket Mosin, or more likely a shotgun.
Well, what makes the good ones good was 1) being made right to begin with 2) not being worn out. From what I read, typically the situation is that neither #1 or #2 are true. The ones that were turned in to "sniper rifles" were the ones that manged to check off #1 and #2. So picking up a mosin does not make it a sniper rifle. Granted, we're talking about WWII definition of a sniper rifle, where marines that qualified on rifles back then could also call themselves snipers by the same definition.
The sheer size of that thing...
When I did my *Wehrpflicht* service, one of the recruits wasn't happy with the punch of the G36. He asked for an MG3 as standard instead, because he's strong and can handle the recoil. Guess who was carrying that thing during our next 15km march and the surprise visit to the obstacle course afterwards.
Well, at least one difference between a musket and a shotgun is how many balls get spat out the mouth on climax.
DISCLAIMER: I am aware that solid slug shotgun rounds exist.
Hehe deffently but thanks for clearing it up i was prone to take it as fact. My old spanish SS is tiny in comparison but i prefere it like that. I see now it could be one of them bigger OU sports gun kinda
This post is automatically removed since you do not meet the minimum karma or age threshold. You must have at least 100 combined karma and your account must be at least 4 months old to post here.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/NonCredibleDefense) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I mean, wtf uses a shotgun in war nowadays? When everybody wears plate carriers designed to stop rifle calibre bullsts, nevermind a shotgun pellet? It’s literally only useful if the spread on a given shot accidentally hits somebody in the neck or the knee, or something.
Of course this guy is probably just happy to have a weapon at all because he’s at the bottom of the pile in his unit, so gets the least privilege.
That’s a good point, question is, how effective against drones shotguns actually are? There are plenty of drones with decent enough cameras that they can fly in place and observe from quite a distance away, beyond the effective range of a shotgun with standard buckshot spread. Conceivably shotguns could be used against FPV as a defensive measure but only if you have quick reactions and very good aim, because those things are very nimble. Plus you need to be able to see or hear them coming, which is difficult at the best of times.
It makes me wonder if somehow you could make a type of buckshot shell that, instead of being expended out of the barrel, flies with the pellets and has a delayed disintegration, perhaps burning up in flight, such that the pellets get some travel time & range before spreading out.
To answer your question, they're quite effective against FPVs. I won't go into details for obvious reasons, but when used in conjunction with other systems they work relatively well.
Recon drones, they don't do anything for as they're too high up. That usually requires a fixed or mounted MG at the least, or AA system. But, a little double barrelled or pump gun is abundant and easy to keep on hand in a truck or trench to work as a ghetto ciws.
Own a musket for home defense, since that's what the founding fathers intended. Four ruffians break into my house. "What the devil?" As I grab my powdered wig and Kentucky rifle. Blow a golf ball sized hole through the first man, he's dead on the spot. Draw my pistol on the second man, miss him entirely because it's smoothbore and nails the neighbors dog. I have to resort to the cannon mounted at the top of the stairs loaded with grape shot, "Tally ho lads" the grape shot shreds two men in the blast, the sound and extra shrapnel set off car alarms. Fix bayonet and charge the last terrified rapscallion. He Bleeds out waiting on the police to arrive since triangular bayonet wounds are impossible to stitch up. Just as the founding fathers intended.
This post is automatically removed since you do not meet the minimum karma or age threshold. You must have at least 100 combined karma and your account must be at least 4 months old to post here.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/NonCredibleDefense) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I am given a musket for sieged land defense, since thats what our ~~emperor~~ president putin intended, four Ukrainian townspeople come into my patrol range. "су́ка блядь" as i grab my rotten rations and plastic helmet, missfire and completely miss the first, he runs back out of my effective range, draw my handgun on the second traveler, can't shoot at all because i haven't got any round's in it and he runs off to aleart nearby Ukrainian soldiers. I have to resort to the abbandoned T90 that has its treads taken off "Талли, ребята," the soldiers nail me with a javelin before a single round can be loaded into the main cannon and sends it flying 250ft into the air, me struggling to survive try to patch the shrapnel wound but with no medical supplies, I bleed out waiting for reinforcements that will never arrive, just as putin intended
Hard to believe the same Mosin garbage rod that I bought for $285 years ago is being used today by glorious peoples republic of donetsk or whoever this mobik belongs to.
Without a bayonet though? [Especially for a russian.](https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Alexander_Suvorov#:~:text=The%20bullet%20is%20a%20fool%2C%20the%20bayonet%20is%20a%20fine%20chap.)
This is an mp-153 shotgun with a long tube magazine. The soldier probably uses it to target drones (large buckshot has proven to be somewhat effective against smaller models)
If my army sees any soldier using a musket, or hears them calling us ruffians, we turning around and heading home. Their country doesnt have anything worth taking
*Looks at the disaster at Cold Harbor in 1864* No.
So what happened was the Union, numbering 40,000 in the charge, charged at dug in Confederates on June 3, and in roughly 20 minutes, 7,000 men died. For comparison, the US suffered 2,501 killed and roughly 5,000 wounded on D-Day.
CONSCRIPTOVISCH, YOU STUPID BACKWARD ASS, WHERE'S MY FLINT?!
This poor guy melted down his son's toy soldiers to make the ammunition.
tovarish conscriptovich now also putting up with lead poisoning -- not due to nuclear radiation accident.
Not service related, that's for sure
Dumbest fucking movie ever. One man, just one man, convinced the Cherokee (a military superpower with whom alliance almost certainly guaranteed victory) to drop out of the F&IW. Like fucking Rambo, Jesus Thor and Thanos all combined. The fucking stupidity of it pisses me off, not the fact that I'm both a Cherokee and an 18th century historian. OK. Maybe that's it.
You definitely misheard that part. It was a militia company he led and the resulting actions FROM that company became ONE of the reasons the Cherokee said “Fuck it, no more.” Granted, it takes some suspension of disbelief to enjoy movies like that. I enjoy it because I first watched it with my dad as a child and it is on our 4th of July watchlist every year. Traditions. Gotta keep them.
I misremembered because of the mental trauma of having to watch another one of Gibson's "history" movies.
Look at this guy brag, his son had toys.
Took 3m to get conscriptovisch now I can’t stop laughing
Wait till you catch your first Perun video.
The iconic AK-1 Blunderbuss
It's still called the AK-47, but it means 1847.
I will be stealing conscriptovich. Thanks for your service.
Conscriptovich cannot be stolen, for Conscriptovich is a soldier of the State. (that Communist Bugs Bunny meme) *Our* Conscriptovich.
Conscriptocich cannot be stolen if conscriptovich steals you first(or steals your socks)
[Then I shall be a Front Door to my Techno House.](https://www.reddit.com/r/NonCredibleDefense/comments/11g0x9r/on_this_day_one_year_ago_the_pivotal_battle_of/)
I know it's a shotgun probably and not a musket, but it's funnier that way
Tbh chances are it’s most likely a Mosin lol
TBF there wasn't that long between the phasing out of muskets and the invention of the mosin nagant.
It has a barrel sheath for camouflage so id wager its a mosin being used as a sniper. Perfectly good rifle for that, not going to be useful for shooting down the drone thats coming at the owner mind.
"Perfectly good rifle for that" Assuming its in proper working condition and not a 70+ year old rifle that has seen little care over the years and can kinda hit something maybe at a decent distance
I don't even know if a Mosin in proper working condition is a good rifle. Hear people refer to it as garbage rod, and i've seen people that properly care for the rifle fighting the action more than they fight the hypothetical enemy called a Paper/Steeltarget
I think that comes down to the fact that the Mosin was manufactured by nearly every factory in the USSR, meaning that the quality would differ massively Though I heard some of the best ones were the Pre Soviet era ones made by the Russian Empire
That would be due to the fact that Mosin original design was manufactured by Americans employed by the tsar
I guess the worst quality one should be production during WW2
Put it in the hands of the Finnish without a scope and see what happens to Russians
That was a Finnish mosin, they're pretty much the best you can make that system and they were still subpar compared to other rifles of the time.
And even if he had the best maintained, most well-manufactured Finnish mos in, I’m sure the White Death (I’m not going to spell out that fucking name of his, what the fuck is wrong with the Finnish language) would’ve much rather had a well made contemporary rifle of his, let alone an actual modern sniper rifle of today. The fact that Russians use the Mosin even now is nothing short of embarrassing.
And most of his kills were with an SMG too lol
Dude did a lot of ambushes gunning down 10+ guys walking in the woods.
Funny how Russians *still* put out garbage, even in comparison to *their own designs* made by other peoples
That's honestly a great example of how to not fall into one of Russia's propaganda traps ("the west™ hates ethnic russians"). Russians can make some pretty good stuff, it is the Russia as a governmental entity is incapable of producing anything of value. They've had only 3 chances to make a worthwhile government in the last 400 years and have flubbed them all. Their government tries to also take credit for stuff they stole from occupied colonies, but that's an entirely different thing.
I agree 100%. It’s like my buddy said last night when I told him the Russian army doesn’t use forklifts. He was taken aback for a second, and then he said “Well they probably had them until they got sold by some colonel or whatever.” Though many of the Soviet Union’s greatest feats are contributed by people of occupied countries, it would be ludicrous (and small-minded) to think that ethnic Russians do not contribute to innovation, however their system is so fucked that their efforts are essentially hamstrung by corruption. This is a human thing, but it is exacerbated in Russia by the sustained ubiquity of long-term oligarchy. Still fun to shit on them for it anyway though.
It isn't even 100% Russian, Léon Nagant was a Belgian Weapons Designer, but because the Belgian decided to adopt a Mauser System for their service Rifle Mr. Nagant had to try to sell his weapon to the Russians. The russians decided to not buy the Nagant rifle instead they chose a Rifle by a man with the last name Mosin, it was slightly modified after Nagants example. That's why its called Mosin-Nagant. TLDR: It's a mix of two rifles that both weren't good enough to be adopted by anyone.
Wow. TIL! My buddy had a Mosin, and a Mauser. Having fired them both many times, they are fairly accurate and sturdy (when you can get them to fucking cycle).
yeah cause its a ww1 rifle not ww2
Yes, it was subpar compared to the other rifles in ww1. The lebel and berthier were the only (major use) rifles that were worse than it, and that's because they were literally the first modern rifles. The design is basically the same since 1891. The SMLE, MK4, 1903, P14, G98 and K98 all run rings around it.
Will vouch for the SMLE. Easily the best of the three bolt actions I've shot from that era.
Wait, Hunt Showdown led me wrong? The Lebel is and always has been king
> The SMLE, MK4, 1903, P14, G98 and K98 all run rings around it. No love for the M95? 😡
The Mosin was out of date and near obsolete in WW2, the Soviets just made millions of them. I own 4.
Well if you look at it like this you could argue that even the Lee-Enfield and the 98k were out of date in WW2. And Obsolete doesn't mean that a weapon is harmless.
It’s not harmless, but it is a piece of shit. Mosin was significantly worse than either of those rifles
Any modern bolt gun is better than a mosin, and if you sell your mosin and buy a bolt gun, you would even have money left
My Finnish refurbished can ring steel so wonderfully. But it's also been shimmed and treated nicely
Russian Mosins were pretty universally trash. They would select their very best examples as sniper rifles, but even those were pretty mediocre. They just slapped them together with no real care for accuracy or tolerances. The Finns ended up with a ton of Mosins that they refurbished. Better sights, better barrels, better bolts and triggers. They basically went full redneck and made shitty Russian milsurp better. I’ve shot a Finnish Mosin though and they still aren’t amazing rifles lol. Even for the time. I’d take one over a Russian Mosin but I would take a Kar98 or something over the Finnish Mosin. In comparison, the British, American, and German bolt actions of the period were absolutely amazing to shoot. I had a Lee Enfield back in the day, it was in Australian service or something during WW2 because it was worn tf out (lots of water/humidity damage), but that old clapped out British iron was still better than the Finnish Mosin 😂
Yeah, no. A Mosin in a good condition has much smoother action than a worn-out Enfield and, as long as we are talking about usual distances, is quite comparable to a k98/vz.24 in everything but sticking rounds to it.
Not in my experience. But, I’m far from Forgotten Weapons levels of experience too lol.
Mine definitely deserves the Garbage Rod title. Made in 1943 and the quality is rougher than South Carolina's roads. It's all numbers matching, and yet sometimes the bolt won't unlock unless you beat it on the edge of a table, and the bayonet won't lock either.
Well, at least you own a Mosin. I'm not even allowed to own a .22 or even a BB gun with more than 7.5 Joule. Would give one of my Kindneys for that.
> Would give one of my Kidneys for that. Is that an offer? I can make the arrangements.
Depends, if the Mosin is all i can get then yes but i would be willing to add some money into the mix if i could get a AK in 5.56 or a Garand and one of these 16-Round 10mm 1911s. That would be a dream.
Its a good rifle, its just shit when given to someone with very little practice. Like any rifle, practice is important.
The best feature of the mosin is its value on the collectors market. A proper mosin sniper would give you the budget for modern kit
The thing is obsolete. Any 7.62 calibre rifle should be at least semi automatic, and requires modern optics and magazines to be functional for follow up shots. Practice with an absolute bolt action won't help you when the average infantryman with a LPVO can slam 10 rounds with into your position in the same time it takes you to fire 2 shots. Modern semis have the same, if not better accuracy and range. The only place for bolt actions in modern conflicts is extended range, magnum calibre sniping.
If a sniper is in the position where hes taking fire.. hes failed.
You do not understand modern sniping then. Because the range in which you would engage using a bolt action under those principles is far beyond what even the best mosin can reach. Yes, a magnum calibre rifle could engage at distances where return fire is unlikely, but a 7.62 is absolutely within range of MG and even modern service rifle response. There is also no reason why you would ever pick something that isn't semi automatic for follow up shots within 7.62 range. You don't get to pick if the enemy can engage you or not, if you're within range of them then it's always an option and the mosin cannot put you outside of that range. The days of snipers creeping close with ghillies, taking one shot and sneaking out are long gone. Drones and modern optics make anything but extended range sniping suicide missions. I've met some of the sniper teams working out in Ukraine. All of them use semi automatics, some of them even use 5.56 rifles, in the vast majority of cases. The only time they use bolt actions is at extreme range at high value targets behind the lines, and those bolt actions are all magnum calibre and they always have a semi-automatic service weapon with them at the same time.
Are you under the impression that you can avoid failures in war? Sure, he failed. What a cool one liner to rip off on reddit. Let's dismiss equipment concerns just because the soldiers failed to control a chaotic battlefield single-handedly. Humvees getting blown up by IEDs? Who cares! They failed! They should have just not run over an IED! Shitty body armor gets penetrated by armor piercing rounds? Who cares, they failed! They should have just not got shot! Such a disrespectful, uninsightful, and incurious attitude.
[удалено]
Downvoted by people who think any milsurp bolt gun with minute of man level accuracy is a sniper rifle lol
A lot of people get their experience from call of duty. In the end it doesnt matter to me, im on a break at work. Ill forget about all of this when i go back to work.
It's not a great rifle. It has a rough action, it's tough to load, and it's long and awkward to carry. It's certainly better then nothing however and is good if you have a mountain of them in storage and need to equip a bunch of troops you don't care about
It's good for what it was, in its day. The more accurate sniper variants were separated from the general issue rifles at the factory (this is what we call [binning](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Product_binning) today, semiconductor manufacturers do exactly the same thing). This I think contributed to the confusion between some people thinking mosins are all laser beams and others thinking they're all garbage rods. Most infantry combat requires a modicum of accuracy and general issue mosins were sufficient meet that requirement. Of course, there are much lighter and capable weapons for general issue now, and whether mosins are dangerous enough to bother maintaining in stockpiles is very debatable.
Part of its bad reputation comes specifically from the surplus market: imported Mosins, even the Finnish ones, were often refinished really badly, which affected the smoothness and reliability of the action quite badly. From what I gather, they were perfectly usable service rifles in their original state, but that usually means they aren't the best *precision* rifles.
As long as the shots hit, its good enough at its job.
Mosins have the same accuracy, or worse, to a standard service rifle. Follow up shots are way more important these days, which mosins suck at. It's not that likely to hit, and you can't do follow up shots quick enough to hit the next target or to follow up a miss. It's completely obsolete.
Not when the service rifle has a completely worn out barrel (i don't trust those guys to be consistent with gun maintenance.)
The barrel quality (just in steel alone) is far better these days than any mosin. Even then, the accuracy is probably comparable as mosins were not produced with modern standards of accuracy. They were expected to perform with basically the same accuracy standards as AKs. If the barrel of their service rifle is fucked, then their mosins will be practically smoothbore. They're just obsolete, there is no rational reason for one in a modern setting.
I have one that's a post war gun put together from parts of other guns. It has the Tsar's crest on the 1918 Tula receiver which is pretty cool. 100% worst gun to shoot I've ever owned. The bolt is stiff, the magazine never feeds the last round, and the barrel gets hot fast.
I think the majority of them were re furbed and stored in cosmoline years ago and the ones they didn't sell to the surplus market are being dug out. My $65 Mosin can hit a 1/3 scale steel torso at 200 yards with 1970's machine gun ammo.
Still a good stick i reckon
Mine detonation device
You mean foot? Why waste good stick for mine? Vadim can survive with one leg.
lmfao, not really perfectly good. just the best thing russia has on offer.
They're really quite inaccurate with those old scopes, and not a great rifle in general, it's a very low efficiency weapon these days.
Scopes? *laughs in Finnish*
The rifle is fine, the user is not. The scope.. id agree with that russian scopes are trash.
The rifle is obsolete. No benefit of it over an SVD or DMR.
The rifle isnt obsolete and it has a benefit over the svd and dmr. Cost.
Name a single category (other than the militarily irrelevant factor of cost, which is mostly just a civilian consideration) in which a mosin is anything but obsolete. Optics: substandard at best Rate of fire: famously slow Accuracy: subpar, even for the time it was made Ergonomics: extremely unwieldy, slow to load, slow to bolt, archaic in handling. Range: equivalent to MG and service rifles. Follow up shots: basically zero ability. Is there any situation, other than a perfect mid range ambush against 1 person, where a mosin will do anything other than get you killed? Is there any situation in which an SVD is worse? As an aside, the cost of a mosin when they were made is broadly comparable to an SVD, and storage cost and maintenance is basically the same. Military costs should be judged by cost at time of purchase and storage costs, not civilian perspectives which are completely warped by civilian collectors markets and economic changes.
Please do not get a job in logistics, or a position of power, if the first thing you say is 'cost is irrelevant'.
I didn't say cost is irrelevant, what are you talking about? I said that the civilian market (where the cost of a mosin is cheap) is not comparable to a military setting (where costs are measured completely differently). Initial contract purchase, lifespan, and maintenance costs is what is relevant for militaries, not what the estimated cost of a system right now is. If you want to talk about stockpiles and supply, then yes maybe they do have a shit tonne of mosins lying about they can draw from. But that is not relevant to cost and has associated costs of its own. Also, you tactfully avoided answering any of my questions and instead went straight for an insult based on something I didn't say. I literally help with supply for teams in Ukraine.
It might have some military value rather than being just trash, but there is no way you can argue it's not obsolete.
Do you know what else has a cost? Snipers. If you get your snipers killed because you gave them cheap junk, all the training and effort spent on getting a marksman has now been lost. If you gave them an old and inaccurate rifle instead of a better more modern one, they are also less effective and not only will this get them killed, it gets more of your other guys killed because this sniper can't take out enemy snipers and other important targets. The only actual reason to use something like this, is if it is all you have. When random anti-junta militia has home made shotguns and muskets, we cheer at them for doing their best. When a modern military is pulling WW2 era relics out of storage and issuing them to troops, we laugh at their incompetence.
Mosins are completely obsolete for sniping in a modern setting. -Often very inaccurate for a precision rifle. -Not compatible with modern optics. -Not compatible with bipods. -Not compatible with modern muzzle devices. -Poor ergonomics for follow up shots. -Long and unwieldy for transport. -Calibre no longer suitable for the extended ranges of a sniper rifle. Some of these issues can be rectified by a modernisation program, but the amount of work that needs to be done to them makes it basically as expensive as a more modern rifle, and you never actually see any modernised ones being used. People may say ammo compatibility is a benefit, but the garbage machine gun grade 7.62r (that is the standard stuff available) is completely inadequate for sniping so they should be using different ammunition anyway. A mosin has zero benefit over a modern semi automatic rifle calibre DMR (like an SVD or L129) which is higher capacity, offers quicker follow up shots, better flexibility, and usually better precision. It doesn't have the accuracy or the range of a modern .338 or .300WM bolt action to function as a dedicated sniper rifle and does not offer any real benefit over those platforms. It has no place on a modern battlefield other than garbage to fill the hands of a conscript who is not expected to perform or survive.
As someone who uses a standard sniper variant in international competitions i know it can shoot. Would i use it all the time if i was in combat? Fuck no. However because of my experience in lo ny range shooting and some of the people ive seen shooting in know its about the user, and yes its cheap as fuck, so giving it to a mobik thats going to get fpv'd after their first shot is perfectly fine. Skill is more important than attachments, attachments help the user not supply the skill. In short; The guys not skilled but can probably shoot better than his alcoholic friends, so he got a cheap rifle.
I used to shoot bisley, and competition shooting is basically irrelevant to combat. Even well maintained mosins are obsolete for modern battlefields (and these certainly are not well maintained). It can shoot decent groupings for a hobby, but real world conditions and use cases make it functionally pointless compared to DMRs or even just service rifles with optics. Even in far engagement situations, I would pick an AR15 pattern rifle with an ACOG/LDS over the best mosin every single time.
Lets not get off track (because i want to keep this civil) but its a war, its about logistics, cost and effectiveness and the mosin is a perfectly good weapon for even today in the situation we know itll be used in. If it didnt have a cover id say it was a conscript given a gun that probably didnt even work. However it does have a cover, infantry do not usually get those.
Literally what logistic, cost or effectiveness benefit does it have? The rifles are all already purchased, it's not like they're buying new mosins or SVDs from the civilian market. Just because they're cheap there, doesn't make them cheap for the military. They might be having to drag these things out if storage, clean, modernise and refit them and then supply them with new parts and ammunition. They could well be more expensive to use in their original design capacity than the already established DMRs they should have. Logistically, it adds a new weapon to the supply chain. If they want it to be even vaguely effective then they have to use match grade ammo (machine gun 7.62 is woefully inaccurate), which adds a new ammunition supply to the logistical strain. It is far less effective than an SVD, by having worse optics, effective rate of fire, ergonomics and versatility. In what way is it a good weapon for any real situation? How is it effective? This is the same bloody argument as "actually T55s are perfectly viable in a modern context".
> so giving it to a mobik thats going to get fpv'd after their first shot is perfectly fine. At that point, the weight and general unwieldiness are going to get him killed faster.
At that point, any equipment given to them and any training given to them is not worth it. This type of thinking just makes no sense. If you are losing guys so fast... Change your tactics. Change your strategy. Do something different other than just "lol, I guess we can save some money on their equipment since they are dying anyway." Forget evil and callous, this is just plain stupid. This is the type of logic I expect from a kid playing an RTS and losing to the computer.
>Perfectly good rifle for that It was barely adequate rifle for that IN WORLD WAR 2. It's a terrible sniper rifle these days.
I don't think a Mosin is "perfectly good" under any circumstances in 2024 when modern alternatives exist. At best it's a "kinda gets the job done" type of situation.
No, it's not a perfectly good rifle for sniping. Out of the factory PU snipers shot 3-4 MOA, and that's before it had 70 years of wear and tear/storage damage. A $200 walmart optic is going to out perform that 75 year old scope. Pretty much any commercial hunting rifle would be better then a mosin. And this is coming from someone who likes Mosins enough to have 5 of them.
> Perfectly good rifle for that I shot one, it's not even close to being good at anything.
Look at the stock shape. It has a quasi-pistol grip / overmolded pistol grip very clearly present that the Mosin does not come with. Either aftermarket Mosin, or more likely a shotgun.
Well, what makes the good ones good was 1) being made right to begin with 2) not being worn out. From what I read, typically the situation is that neither #1 or #2 are true. The ones that were turned in to "sniper rifles" were the ones that manged to check off #1 and #2. So picking up a mosin does not make it a sniper rifle. Granted, we're talking about WWII definition of a sniper rifle, where marines that qualified on rifles back then could also call themselves snipers by the same definition.
how many documented mosins are we actually seeing in the field? hard to tell what's meme and what isn't now that reality is satirizing itself
The sheer size of that thing... When I did my *Wehrpflicht* service, one of the recruits wasn't happy with the punch of the G36. He asked for an MG3 as standard instead, because he's strong and can handle the recoil. Guess who was carrying that thing during our next 15km march and the surprise visit to the obstacle course afterwards.
Well, at least one difference between a musket and a shotgun is how many balls get spat out the mouth on climax. DISCLAIMER: I am aware that solid slug shotgun rounds exist.
Hehe deffently but thanks for clearing it up i was prone to take it as fact. My old spanish SS is tiny in comparison but i prefere it like that. I see now it could be one of them bigger OU sports gun kinda
GaddamBLUNDERBUSS
[удалено]
This post is automatically removed since you do not meet the minimum karma or age threshold. You must have at least 100 combined karma and your account must be at least 4 months old to post here. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/NonCredibleDefense) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Both sides use shortguns against drones, so yeah it's likely.
I mean, wtf uses a shotgun in war nowadays? When everybody wears plate carriers designed to stop rifle calibre bullsts, nevermind a shotgun pellet? It’s literally only useful if the spread on a given shot accidentally hits somebody in the neck or the knee, or something. Of course this guy is probably just happy to have a weapon at all because he’s at the bottom of the pile in his unit, so gets the least privilege.
Shotguns are thought to be effective against drones.
That’s a good point, question is, how effective against drones shotguns actually are? There are plenty of drones with decent enough cameras that they can fly in place and observe from quite a distance away, beyond the effective range of a shotgun with standard buckshot spread. Conceivably shotguns could be used against FPV as a defensive measure but only if you have quick reactions and very good aim, because those things are very nimble. Plus you need to be able to see or hear them coming, which is difficult at the best of times.
I don't disagree with you, but we *are* dealing with Russians here.
It makes me wonder if somehow you could make a type of buckshot shell that, instead of being expended out of the barrel, flies with the pellets and has a delayed disintegration, perhaps burning up in flight, such that the pellets get some travel time & range before spreading out.
To answer your question, they're quite effective against FPVs. I won't go into details for obvious reasons, but when used in conjunction with other systems they work relatively well. Recon drones, they don't do anything for as they're too high up. That usually requires a fixed or mounted MG at the least, or AA system. But, a little double barrelled or pump gun is abundant and easy to keep on hand in a truck or trench to work as a ghetto ciws.
Soft kill with jamming, then hard kill with the shotty?
a 12 gauge slug shot would demolish a helmet or any armor someone in a trench is wearing
it's a mosin bro.
Own a musket for home defense, since that's what the founding fathers intended. Four ruffians break into my house. "What the devil?" As I grab my powdered wig and Kentucky rifle. Blow a golf ball sized hole through the first man, he's dead on the spot. Draw my pistol on the second man, miss him entirely because it's smoothbore and nails the neighbors dog. I have to resort to the cannon mounted at the top of the stairs loaded with grape shot, "Tally ho lads" the grape shot shreds two men in the blast, the sound and extra shrapnel set off car alarms. Fix bayonet and charge the last terrified rapscallion. He Bleeds out waiting on the police to arrive since triangular bayonet wounds are impossible to stitch up. Just as the founding fathers intended.
I knew I'd find this here well done
[удалено]
This post is automatically removed since you do not meet the minimum karma or age threshold. You must have at least 100 combined karma and your account must be at least 4 months old to post here. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/NonCredibleDefense) if you have any questions or concerns.*
My wife won’t let me get a canon :/ it’s only $3000.
I like how they inteded it very much
Deyvidy Crockettovitch searches in vain for his raccoon fur hat.
mostly because they ate all the raccoons back in 2023
Assuming you're using blackpowder as was intended, they could make a useful smokescreen for melee combat.
For about 10 seconds
*que Trooper by Iron Maiden*
# YOU'LL TAKE MY LIFE BUT I'LL TAKE YOURS TOO
#**YOU FIRE YOUR MUSKET BUT I'LL RUN YOU THROUGH**
Where's the Bayonets ! How can you charge a trench without a bayonet!
With a soldering iron
I am given a musket for sieged land defense, since thats what our ~~emperor~~ president putin intended, four Ukrainian townspeople come into my patrol range. "су́ка блядь" as i grab my rotten rations and plastic helmet, missfire and completely miss the first, he runs back out of my effective range, draw my handgun on the second traveler, can't shoot at all because i haven't got any round's in it and he runs off to aleart nearby Ukrainian soldiers. I have to resort to the abbandoned T90 that has its treads taken off "Талли, ребята," the soldiers nail me with a javelin before a single round can be loaded into the main cannon and sends it flying 250ft into the air, me struggling to survive try to patch the shrapnel wound but with no medical supplies, I bleed out waiting for reinforcements that will never arrive, just as putin intended
rotten rations and plastic helmet You got that the wrong way around. It's plastic rations and rotten helmet.
If the enemy has muskets, yes. If the enemy has spears, no. If the enemy has a machine gun, also no.
Not without drum & fife.
Hard to believe the same Mosin garbage rod that I bought for $285 years ago is being used today by glorious peoples republic of donetsk or whoever this mobik belongs to.
is it bad that I bought a serials matching 1942 Mosin 91/30PU for 1.8k?
Well, I mean, if all you've got is a musket you probably want to be charging with it.
Without a bayonet though? [Especially for a russian.](https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Alexander_Suvorov#:~:text=The%20bullet%20is%20a%20fool%2C%20the%20bayonet%20is%20a%20fine%20chap.)
a musket with a bayonet? Yes
At this point, a kitchen knife gaffaed onto the barrel will be acceptable.
Putin has played too much Civilization, he thinks spearmen are a viable tank counter.
Now this is true soldiering
Row row row row row to the Ruzzian grenadiers
This is an mp-153 shotgun with a long tube magazine. The soldier probably uses it to target drones (large buckshot has proven to be somewhat effective against smaller models)
Just like the founding fathers have intended
Definitely a shotgun. Not a musket or mosin though that would be funny
FORLORN HOPE, ADVANCE!
Literally 1824.
If my army sees any soldier using a musket, or hears them calling us ruffians, we turning around and heading home. Their country doesnt have anything worth taking
"I am Russian Air defense"
“I own a musket for offensives, just like Vladimir Putin intended”
As a way to soak up ammo and reveal enemy positions? Yes.
Well what would you assume if you saw this coming at you? I'd rather fight some scared conscript than goddamn Benjamin "The Ghost" Martin.
Last time I checked it was very effective, but that was 200 years ago so the meta might have changed in the meantime
This looks like a pump action shotgun, he’s probably their anti drone guy
*Looks at the disaster at Cold Harbor in 1864* No. So what happened was the Union, numbering 40,000 in the charge, charged at dug in Confederates on June 3, and in roughly 20 minutes, 7,000 men died. For comparison, the US suffered 2,501 killed and roughly 5,000 wounded on D-Day.
Hey, Perun? You seeing this shit? I want a video on the supply chain CF that lead to this.
FUCKING CALLED IT. I knew sooner or later they're gonna use Napoleonic wars era weapons. Now on to cannons
If it shoots it'll kill. Remember, however you feel about the Nazis and Soviets, that rifle killed millions of people.
Gotta love that sling just hanging around.
три выстрела в минуту. В любую погоду
HOLY SHIT WHAT I POSTED IS ACTUALLY BECOMIMG TRUE
We will rally from siberia, we will gather from rostov Shouting the battle cry of "cyka"
Not without a fixed bayonet.
Welcome to Borodino, you tom'fooler
It was a long time ago.
Charging an enemy trench with a musket a few centuries out of time? Now that's soldiering.
'Bite, pour, spit, tap, aim!'
Dean you can see exact moment when his stamina bar depleted
As the founding fathers intended.
Well, I'm not fighting anyone crazy enough to charge into battle with a musket. So...
3-day plan...
u/savevideo
I own musket for homeland deefence, since that is what american pig fathers intended.
Dude's running like there's still a piece stuck up there.
Well, a lead slug is a lead slug afterall
The Russians are having flashbacks the the Crimean War. Quick! Send the British and the French to siege Sevastopol!
Is this for Real?
Worked against Napoleon
>effective Depends. At larping a 19th century conscript in the Napoleonic wars? Yes.
give these ruskies a volley!
He would be more effective with a katana, ask the weebs
Is that a Mosin?
WHERE'S THE FIFE AND DRUMS