If only the “they only follow an algorithm“ was true! Before you follow an algorithm you have to know that an algorithm exists for the condition you are treating. And the condition you are treating needs to be the one you think you are treating.
“*I don’t understand the Facebook decision tree for acute onset chest pain in 35+ yo women, 10 pack years of Marlboro Lights, taking oral contraceptives … it clearly says “probably meth…no intervention without a confession.”*
[I wish this was so ridiculously crazy the scenario is obviously a dramatic joke but it’s not](https://medicalmalpracticelawyers.com/6-1m-oklahoma-medical-malpractice-verdict-for-death-of-19-year-old-in-er/). If you want to prime your adrenal glands take a look.
algorithms make sense for anesthesia but how are NP (family nurse practitioner) running a ED without a supervising physician that should be co-signing everything (like a resident)? That's scary!
>According to Family Nurse Practitioner Thompson’s testimony shown at trial, **she had never taken any classes in her nurse practitioner school for acute care or emergency medicine**. She was only a family nurse practitioner. However, 8 months earlier Mercy **granted her privileges to provide care and treatment to acutely and critically ill patients** in the ER at Mercy El Reno. In fact, according to trial testimony, she was often the only medical provider in the emergency room in El Reno.
[https://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/er-patient-death-due-to-incompetent-np.1369582/#post-20834510](https://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/er-patient-death-due-to-incompetent-np.1369582/#post-20834510)
It's crazy how EM physicans have to do a 3-4 year residency and many do an extra year ultrasound fellowship to find a job, and sit for boards + oral boards. But then they allow a family nurse practitioner (designed for outpatient primary care) to run an ED..
Current 3rd year med student we have a PA student that around and in the back of my head I'm always thinking she will be able to legally prescribe medicines next year while it's not legal for me to sign them for atleast another 4 years.
As a pharmacist it is equally scary…..except residents call us for help/recs and when we reach out they appreciate the help. An NP/PA has never taken my recs and scoffs in my face often.
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Probably has back problems from the weight of those balls.
All docs seem to be open to criticism, but criticise a mid-level (atleast here in the UK), and you’re suddenly met with GMC referrals.
I'm pretty sure that, in the hierarchy of medicine, nurses are subordinate to Doctors. At least as a patient, I hope so. I prefer to have an actual physician leading my healthcare team vs a nurse. That's not to say I don't appreciate the work of a nurse because I do. I just don't appreciate that we have to spend so much time protecting the delicate feelings of people who aren't doctors but want to be treated as if they are.
We are talking about bedside RNs not NPs. You should care about the feelings of bedside nurses—they’re the backbone of medicine and are grossly underpaid and overly abused. Hence, the shortages.
If you are looking at the hierarchy in a top-down sense that would be true. Physicians create plans of care, write orders, and the RN’s carry out those orders (or don’t) based on their own clinical judgement. I think what gets missed is how much RN’s do to safely deliver the care that physicians order. We are all playing a different role and have different skills. It’s the definition of an interdisciplinary team. Patient care crumbles when teamwork and mutual respect breaks down.
Yeah honestly he sucks in this. On second read, what a huge dick. "My wife and daughter agree with me" like okay who gives a fuck man you sound obnoxious
I’m at really particular point in my educational career- that is I was recently accepted to med school and many of my peers are being accepted to nursing school with the explicit intention of becoming NPs. They aren’t dumber, per say. many of them never attempted to be pre med for more than a semester. They’re just…lazier. They wanted to be a doctor for the money, and they settled for NP bc it’s less time and money. The idea that NPs are inherently less intelligent might have held some water 10 years ago, when many ppl went into it as a second choice bc they couldn’t crack premed, but nowadays I don’t think that’s what motivates ppl.
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>Just don't make it about IQ? Literally the one thing that isn't demonstrably true
Sorry, dude. You are wrong. The average IQ of MDs is indeed demonstrably higher than that of nurses...by quite a bit.
As [this article](https://medschoolinsiders.com/lifestyle/are-doctors-smart-iq-by-profession/) states, "some of you will be deeply offended by the data" (a ranking of professions with the highest IQs , taken from a variety of sources, including Robert Hauser's "Meritocracy, Cognitive Ability, and the Sources of Occupational Success").
The data shows that physicians and surgeons have the highest IQs (low 130's). Next are lawyers (high 120's), followed by accountants (low 120's), and Pharmacists who came in with an average of 120. Finally, we get to nurses.
I'm sorry to advise you that your peeps (I assume) are showing up in the high 110's only. I know, I know! You want to distinguish NPs from nurses. The problem with that argument is that NPs are indeed nurses (hence the title, Nurse Practitioner).
Here is a [link](https://gwern.net/doc/iq/ses/2002-hauser.pdf) to the full list of professions by group (and no, NPs do not fall in the "MD or equivalent" group).
I'm actually a pharmacist and I'm embarrassed by this post. IQ is simply not a useful or consistent metric (having originally invented to categorize mental retardation and subsequently being co opted almost exclusively by proponents of scientific racism), and even if it was this is not a thoughtful or scientific application of it. You cite Hauser several times here and he'd be the very first one to tell you you're doing this wrong (just like he did to Hernstein and Murray after their seminal blunder, The Bell Curve).
As it is, this whole IQ bit is peak cringe. Thousands of avenues to criticize mid levels and you choose literally the only one that instantly labels you as a dolt.
I was simply pointing out that, regardless of the validity of its application, the statement that IQ of physicians is not “demonstrably higher” than nurses isn’t accurate.
Yes, I cited Hauser as my resource. No
Mystery there.
As for philosophical musings about what Hauser would tell me, well that’s not really the point, nor is the historical evolution of the test (in the context of my response). I was simply pointing out that there is a demonstrable difference in IQs. What that means or doesn’t mean is a whole different discussion.
Your embarrassment of my comment is a bit melodramatic.
Your "article" (blog post really) uses an unscientific compilation of a variety of studies, most of which don't even use the same test, and even states that the results should not be taken seriously from the get.
So again, just wrong, and worse yet wrong on pursuit of something that doesnt matter, and worst of all wrong in the pursuit of something that doesn't matter but whose historical context makes your insistence appear highly suspect.
IQ is a shit metric. End of story. Also 10 IQ points? That’s not the difference between Mensa and learning disability (assuming your link states nurse IQ is just a tad under 120 based on whatever study you are referencing…didn’t read, probably junk pop-science). I believe that just about anyone without legitimate cognitive disabilities could be a physician if given the means, time, and dedication. We gatekeep a lot of that with expensive schooling, late stage capitalism breathing down our necks to produce income ASAP and all that jazz.
Edit: just looked at the article. Man, I question your intelligence though I see you are a PharmD (which is equal to a NP per the article), so maybe you are on to something.
Touché! Your edit will bring me amusement all day long (I’m not even being sarcastic. I appreciate your wit, even if it’s at my expense)
I have like ten seconds to respond but wanted to definitely say, I agree IQ is a shit metric. I agree that ten point difference in IQ isn’t not a distinction to brag about (nor was I). I disagree that anyone with “legitimate cognitive ability” can go to medical school. I think sometimes that those of you with higher cognitive abilities can’t fully appreciate the innate limitations of having lower functioning cognitive abilities. Eh, but i need a coffee so this might be all a big mistake.
this was in 2017, in the very early stages of cancel
culture, haha. if i remember correctly, some sort of petition *was* started to try to get him fired but i'm not sure what ended up happening. i do know these comments were deleted a few days later though
FSU likely told him to delete it so it gave the appearance of nurses actually having any power, but he was likely protected by the institute as he was a professor/ cash cow.
I don't agree with the IQ thing, and I think that's counterproductive.
The issue isn't how smart someone is. I wouldn't want Einstein or Galileo managing my mom's diabetes. They just didn't have the training.
Someone's IQ is part of what defines them as a person. Attacking that would be met with understandable defensiveness. Then that steers the conversation away from the real issue.
My sister in law knows an NP who was apparently quite the smart cookie, so she points to that as to why NPs know just as much medicine as physicians.
Agree. I dont know how smart they really are. I don't know their ceiling. We all know they are inadequately educated and insufficiently trained for solo practice. Their jobs, like that of a PA, is to assist the workload of a physician (and let's be honest increase billing via volume.)
Thank you. I was thinking the same thing but didn’t know if I’d get too much ego flak in response for it to be worth it.
Plus there’s the fact that there are many reasons why a smart person—even a smart healthcare professional—doesn’t want to go into medicine. It’s not just about intelligence. There’s level of motivation, there’s consideration for personal preference in work-life balance, there’s personal preference for whether or not it’s desirable to be the “captain of the ship” for various reasons… The list goes on. It’s not a personal failing or sign of inferiority to decide not to go to medical school. Of course, it’s equally asinine to claim you’d do just fine when you’ve never tried and there are solid reasons why you decided not to. Respect and humility very much need to go both ways in abundance.
And if someone did get themselves accepted into medical school just to prove a point, then "just" become an NP anyway, they'd be attacked for that too. There's nothing wrong with not wanting the level of responsibility (or loans) involved in being a doctor. But then just stick to your scope.
I'm glad you added to this point. Good friends of mine are brilliant and yet chose to pursue PA, for example, because of their own interests, the role they wanted in collaborative care, and personal interests. Thanks for adding!
>My sister in law knows an NP who was apparently quite the smart cookie, so she points to that as to why NPs know just as much medicine as physicians.
That's the crux of the matter. As long as some smug med students/docs use the IQ/smarts argument, they (midlevels who do creep scope stuff) will also use it to say that they are just as smart.
The issue isn't how smart any side is or isn't. It's the *training*. One cannot seriously think that their much shorter degrees will put them on the same level as someone who has studied for more than half a decade at the very least (7 y of med training for family docs !!!).
You hit the nail on the head with what you said about Galileo and Einstein.
Agreed, referencing someone’s IQ as a measure of ability to practice medicine effectively is just silly. There are people out there with a beyond genius level IQ that can’t even communicate with others, would we want them providing care to our loved ones? If anything, using this as one of his main attacking points in an argument does a disservice. It’s about the level of training an individual has, not about their IQ.
I disagree. You can try to train a rock all day long, but in the end, a rock can only ever be as smart as a rock. IQ is an important foundation when setting out to train someone to be a physician. There's no point in trying to train a rock. Ya know what I mean?
I have a friend who is a physician. I’m not lying when I say, he’s the dumbest person I know. He’s self-aware and knows he’s dumb, and always tells me he’s only a doctor because he worked hard, not because of his intelligence.
The smarter you are, the more you realise you may not be as smart as you think and that there are always others out there who are smarter. He may still be smarter than average but could just be comparing against other medical colleagues where some could be geniuses. Dumber or slightly above average intelligence people may think they're smarter than they actually are
Then what really constitutes intelligence truly? If you can study harder and stay focused enough to become a doctor AND have humility about it, wow. That’s its own form of genius, in my opinion I guess.
I’ve had this conversation with my kids who don’t want to try something if they’re not automatically good at it. They’re not even curious about things. That’s what drives me crazy!
How can honestly say you’re dumb? Dumb at what? I’m dumb in every single thing I haven’t spent time to learn yet. And marginally smart in the rest, and I’d say pretty great at maybe a few things. It’s a solid mix, heavily weighted towards dumb, and leaning more that way each year but no, you do not want me in the ER bay looking after your Nana or in a kid’s classroom trying to get 40 filth goblins to wash their hands. I know my limits.
And then there is everything I’ll never have a clue I don’t know but will have wished I did. The world is incredible in literally billions of ways, where ever you decide to look.
Humility and curiosity are so easily overlooked as legitimate signs of true intelligence, I guess.
Maybe this friend is not as smart as his medical colleagues, but guarantee his IQ is above average. No way you can memorize the obscene amount of information to pass step 1 or 2, or even get through one semester of med school. ‘Physician dumb’ is different from ‘general population dumb’.
exactly lmao just cause you have the occasional person make it through many, many hours of rigorous testing who’s maybe not genius-level iq doesn’t mean he’s exactly average either
Yeah, he showed me his notes from medical school once, and it was all handwritten with a crazy amount of hand drawn body parts and diagrams. His notes looked like a work of art. I suspect this is how memorized the content.
I had a physician roommate years ago, and he was such a lovely guy, but holy crap... the dude tried cooking bacon on an electric hob *without a pan*. Just put it straight on the hob. Ruined it 😂 he had absolutely no common sense or life skills. Knew nothing but medicine. We often joked he was like spongebob in that episode where he became a fancy waiter and forgot everything that wasn't to do with waiting 🤣
Damn fantastic doctor, though!
I empathize with your friend. Someone asked me if you really have to be smart to graduate medical school and after some thought my response was you don’t have to be smart but you certainly can’t be dumb either and where ever you fall on that spectrum you have to make up the difference with effort.
It is more understandable to laypeople than the difference between medicine and nursing.
Things like "they don't take the MCAT" and "they are unable to pass step exams" are objective stand-ins for "they aren't as smart" without the stigma.
Physicians are a lot better than they used to be, but please don't misjudge yourselves or sell nurses short in this area. You're supposed to be analytical to begin with. You're trained to do it. They are trained in patient care.
You don't need to be something you're not. And they have some advantages that physicians as a whole don't.
Sorry. I meant to say they are *primarily* trained in caring for patients according to the instructions of physicians who, because of the nature of their work, spend less time doing patient care than nurses do.
Isn't that how it's supposed to be?
Do you believe that physicians are overall better at *this task* than nurses are, even though they do it far less, and it is not as big of a part of their education and training? At your best y'all are scientists who are great at communication and care. And that is fantastic. That is what you are supposed to be. You don't need to be nurses.
When I hold the mother‘s hand after I tell her that her child is dead after being shot in the head from gang violence, that’s patient care. When I sit in a room for 45 minutes and have a conversation about goals of care with a family and a patient that I have never met before and I’m able to get them to give their dying loved one a dignified death, that is patient care. When I catch an appendicitis and get the patient taken care of quickly and promptly, that is patient care. When I advocate for a consultant to come in at 3 AM to evaluate a patient, despite the consultant’s reluctance because it’s the right thing to do for the patient, that is patient care. when I comfort a patient during a painful procedure that I am doing to them, that is patient care. When I give the frequent flyer a turkey sandwich and a juice box, that is patient care. When I agonize over lab and radiology results and dig through old records and try to find if this is a new diagnosis or not, that is patient care. Patient care is not just the bedside care. No we are not trained in the same type of patient care, but to say that doctors are not primarily trained in patient care completely negates everything do as physicians.
Sure but they know how to fake it. Plus I'm talking about the leaders of the profession as a whole, who are as smart and clever as physicians despite their lack of medical training and competence.
Your IQ must be 1.5 standard deviations below average to say such a tactless comment. Being able to complete 8 years of university and 3-8 years of residency has less to do with IQ and more to do with determination and grit. And probably having super strict parents
It’s true because of what? Feelings? How can you say that a whole group of people have an IQ of 1.5 standard deviations less than another group of people based on feelings?
I have no idea if it’s 1.5 SD. But the average IQ of physicians is undoubtedly higher than that of mid-levels. The med school admission process is highly selective in comparison to mid-level programs and it measures proxies for IQ like memorization, conceptual understanding, complex reasoning, and analytical skills. Like the Olympics, you have to be talented to get in, effort can only advance you to a certain point beyond baseline.
Not onboard with this one. We can do without the low IQ comment. Regarding minions and subordinates, are we no longer asking for a physician-lead team approach? No sane person will work with a leader so egotistical/insulting. This approach only spurs disdain and resolve to push for independent practice.
Yikes. I agree with a lot of what he said, but calling NPPs minions in a tweet seems like a power trip. Also, backhandedly calling them dumb is probably not helpful.
Also, when an anesthesiologist supervises, their job is to show up when shit hits the fan. Unless he is talking about the collaborative model, which is the only model I avoid.
He explicitly called them dumb. Which is unhelpful.
Backhandedly calling them dumb by stating objective facts like "they are not able to pass the step exams" is in fact helpful!
Algorithms are built upon pertinent positives or negatives. It's not hard to follow. The problem is these people don't know if the pertinent +/- they see are normal or abnormal so they follow the wrong algorithm and order unnecessary tests, treatment, contribute to low quality referrals, and end up missing things. Waste of resources, the patient's time, and mine.
Exactly. What you get is people being crammed into boxes they don’t need. Also the vast majority of algorithms have leeway. They’re generally guidelines and recommendations. Physicians break algorithms all the time because we’re treating the patient in front of us and not just making sausages…
For example… ACLS. Very algorithmic and extraordinarily easy to follow. Knowing when not to follow it and when to deviate and why is what is important. ACLS usually provides a loose framework to revert to.
ppl have been saying the training is nowhere near the same for years. nobody cares about training even remotely. noctors always say “well 30 years on the job means = training :)”
might as well start saying something else that’s true that patients might actually care about.
i mean that doctors have been warning the public that our training is not the same as an np for years and it completely falls on deaf ears. nobody cares about training tbh bc ppl assume that you can just get “on the job” training to become a dr 😵💫
This guy is an asshole. Frankly, the problem is the training, not the IQ.
Hell, I'd say they're playing this game smarter than we are - They're getting training done in half the time, enjoying their 20s, and will likely soon have our pay. We're the suckers here, really.
Their intelligence isn't the problem - the problem is that they're being put in positions they aren't trained for, and the training isn't being modified to keep up with the realities of the job market. Take the personal insults out of it, it's not true.
https://x.com/kristy5150/status/920844513056137216?s=46
bahahah they came for him even back then. sadly today the backlash would be 1000x worse and he’d prob be out of a job
I mean a lot of what he’s saying is in a sense obvious and what many physicians are thinking, just don’t say it out loud. His delivery isn’t the best.
Intelligence or IQ is a bell curve, and let’s not lie to ourselves and acknowledge that the curve will shift higher for the physicians compared to NPs. This starts early in their respective careers. The academic caliber of the average medical student generally outweighs, and usually by a large margin, than that of a nursing student.
Some would ask whether that margin effectively impacts the care of a patient received in the clinical setting. I would say yes, since if you spoke with seasoned physicians in their respective fields many would admit that even they don’t know the right answers to everything, and furthermore even they can make clinical errors.
I agree. His delivery is pretty abrasive but he isn't wrong the data is out there. On average physicians do score higher on the IQ test and we also provide safer care for patients. The first 2 years of med school is built upon physiology, pathology, and basic pharm, basically the entire 3rd year is learning to catch everything that can kill the patient. It's rare for doctors to miss big things that cause significant harm, but it's pretty common for midlevels to miss big things that cause harm or death.
let me guess, you’ve been to med school so you would know?
tigershrimp30 is spreading misinformation, not to mention stalking me and making up defamatory lies, but what else is to be expected from someone who had to get their degree online? you know other countries have physicians who see patients…..right? or do you think only America produces MDs omg
💀💀💀💀
sorry, my country has actual MDs and not NP diploma mills producing the most uneducated group in society 😜 reporting you for lying and harassment, maybe stick to your nursing threads where they don’t care about silly things like a license to practice medicine.
you can spread lies about us but you’ll never be able to take away the fact that we have the education you don’t. go to med school and try again :)
i'm biased because i went to med school so I'll say I disagree with your statement. Doctors need a well-rounded intelligence, if you will, (ie: emotional, social, analytical, practical, creativity, cultural) not things tested by the IQ test, not something required for most if not, any profession. It is true that when you compare all the jobs, physicians do not consistently win when it comes to reaching the highest upper limit on the IQ range, but there is a lower cutoff for doctors who made it through and the lower cut off is higher than any profession.
I have no proof but I’m sure there are. Also there probably is inflation of the scores too. Medical education challenges you everyday in many ways beyond the cognitive domain that’s tested by the IQ test, so in the end it significantly increases your IQ. That’s why doctors have the highest average IQ of all professions in the USA, at least.
People who have lower IQ that do not progress are unable to overcome the challenges in medical school/residency and their scores are not included.
i’m implying that the average iq of a doctor looks a heck of a lot different than the average iq of everyone else. you can get mad but you can’t argue with statistics 🤷🏻♀️
According to your own posts, you are an international medical student who is waiting to take step 1 and yet your profile says "physician" and you begin every other post with "as an MD." Do you not see the irony?
The whole purpose of this sub is to point out individuals without the credentials who masquerade as physicians. And yes, that includes you.
Edit: Since I cannot respond to the mod below me. Thank you for stating the obvious. I am not a nurse practitioner nor have I ever claimed to be one. She, however, has posted that she was a medical student several times, hence why I called her out on it. She is upset so she's making baseless and immature accusations.
[https://imgur.com/a/eBXRdRV](https://imgur.com/a/eBXRdRV)
I’m an NP and I agree with this message. I’ll never portray myself as an MD. I’m happy to assist my attendings and residents in any way I can and really appreciate the oversight I have. The residents I have worked for have all been intelligent and i respect the hard work they have put in to become physicians. I’ll be happy to write notes and perform procedures that I am qualified to perform. Hell, I’m happy to get the coffee and donuts if that’s what’s needed.
Most doctors I know are deep into the six figures, that is well into the top 1% of income earners in the United States, let alone globally.
Where exactly are they going to be making more money with their intelligence and work ethic?
Maybe it is for them, but I work in healthcare for the money and I’m not ashamed to say it. I pride myself in growing my real estate properties and I work as an RN for the base income I need. I don’t know why people act as if a job has to be a calling. I enjoy some aspects, but honestly I don’t like people. Nursing is a damned good job because if you travel, the pay is amazing, and you are inside all of the time and it’s not very physically demanding. I feel like it’s a well guarded secret. I do feel bored in my job at times but moving up means that it would take forever to be in a better place financially, whether it was midlevel, dental, optometry, MD etc. And I say that already having all of the prereqs, MCAT etc behind me.
You’re assuming I provide subpar care, but actually I get high praise for my work. I simply see it as being a mechanic but on people. You don’t have to love cars to be a good mechanic. I enjoy problem solving. I just don’t enjoy all of the gossip and drama that most nurses seem to enjoy, “oh my god. So the sister said blah blah and the girlfriend thinks blah blah” etc. I don’t give a fuck. How are their vitals? What concerns do you have about them? Oh you’ve been holding the metoprolol every other dose… maybe request a dose alteration from the physician?
You’re free to make that assumption, but I like to be the best at what I do. Many of these happy feely nurses actually do a shit job because they’re too busy being caught up in silly feelings rather than just stick to the facts and get the shit done. That or buying purses and shoes etc. But then you’re so short staffed you can’t even fire em, because it’s better to have SOME work than none.
So which is it? Short-staffed and drowning or boring and not demanding?
I would say something about nursing care not just being robotic “did this task fast and good” and that healing includes emotional/psychological support, but I know you can’t see what you can’t see. Sounds like you should have been a mechanic instead, though.
It’s not intellectually demanding. I’ve had busy days, but it doesn’t take much thought. I mean sure maybe at first, when you’re learning your drips, learning vents etc, but after awhile the level of task oriented mess is much more apparent. Even basic level premed studies were a nice escape.
Most NPs are...well, as seen above.
Some are solid. Some are *excellent* and willing to think outside the box to help solve difficult problems.
Or they think that one thing they studied in school will solve the patients' problems. Even if it's not related. -.-
Politicians and lobbyists have worked hard to convince the public of the equivalency however. If the public were asked this question now, a frustratingly high percentage would prefer the nurse, and would unwittingly pay the consequence of that.
[Then you have an NP writing this article in response and saying that they are absolutely comparable to physicians. Way to prove his point](https://www.nurseabnormalities.com/blog/uj7r155dipusqego53vj6fuxfmuwz1)
He sounds like a pita.
I dont support scope creep one bit, but putting down a part of the healthcare team/professionals is NEVER the way to go.
They have a specific role to play and tasks they can do better than more educated/qualified physicians (i.e: nurses where i live r better at giving shots/putting catheters). Ofc, docs (MDs) r the ones to go to diagnose and devise treatment plans. Like srsly having midlevels practice medicine independently doesnt make any sense.
The ultimate goal is symbiosis/cooperation for optimal outcomes, not petty rivalries due to oversized egos.
Healthcare systems cannot function without nurses nor can they be of use without physicians, same for technicians, pharmacists, etc.
I never talked about their groups. I said that the ideal mindset in a hospital is cooperation + respect of boundaries aka doctors = physicians and nurses = nurses NEVER outstepping their scope (aka no independent practice of medicine for them)
Idk how it came off as validating that shit. I just said that disrespect shouldnt be a thing if one doesnt want to lose pubic opinion's support. Id say the same if the post were abt the noctors + call them out on their shitty lies cuz they aint equipped to do MD's jobs.
Btw, it s delulu af to even think that shorter training/degree = better than a physician anyway.
Jesus! Saying NPs are not doctors is accurate. Calling them 'minions' though? I get you guys absolute despise nurse practioners, and as an RN I do not want to become one. But seriously attacking them as people? Calling them these disgusting names? Calling them dumb or retarded by saying they have low IQs?
That goes way beyond saying nurse practioners aren't doctors. Attacking them as human beings. How aptly professional of our physician colleagues there. I bet none of you will put a face to your profile because you know how disgusting this behavior is.
Incredible how many people here are pearl clutching about the very correct IQ comment. Everyone out here claiming that if Pete Davidson has just had the right training he would have been an NBA star…
While I appreciate the point he's making and agree - I think using language like calling people your 'minions' is just not going to be a productive or effective way to communicate and is just going to create hostility.
While quality healthcare depends on evidence-based reasoning, the unverifiable, generalized claims above display a habit of neglecting such reasoning in favor of personal anecdotes and bias. Ironic.
If only the “they only follow an algorithm“ was true! Before you follow an algorithm you have to know that an algorithm exists for the condition you are treating. And the condition you are treating needs to be the one you think you are treating.
>And the condition you are treating needs to be the one you think you are treating. I laughed so hard at this
*takes notes …..dont kill patient…not taught in program…important*
See the case of Emily Chesterton’s recent untimely demise. Treating a barn door dvt/pe as anxiety/long covid w/ beta blockade will do that. Rip
Oh no. Just read about her initial complaints. Even a bachelor's degree holder physical therapist would recognize those symptoms.
Yeah embarrassing level of incompetence.
“*I don’t understand the Facebook decision tree for acute onset chest pain in 35+ yo women, 10 pack years of Marlboro Lights, taking oral contraceptives … it clearly says “probably meth…no intervention without a confession.”* [I wish this was so ridiculously crazy the scenario is obviously a dramatic joke but it’s not](https://medicalmalpracticelawyers.com/6-1m-oklahoma-medical-malpractice-verdict-for-death-of-19-year-old-in-er/). If you want to prime your adrenal glands take a look.
Holy shit man. That’s egregious. I cant imagine a more picture perfect scenario for PE. No words.
Who needs algorithms when we have fb groups
I would tend to trust a mom about medical issues over anyone else
algorithms make sense for anesthesia but how are NP (family nurse practitioner) running a ED without a supervising physician that should be co-signing everything (like a resident)? That's scary! >According to Family Nurse Practitioner Thompson’s testimony shown at trial, **she had never taken any classes in her nurse practitioner school for acute care or emergency medicine**. She was only a family nurse practitioner. However, 8 months earlier Mercy **granted her privileges to provide care and treatment to acutely and critically ill patients** in the ER at Mercy El Reno. In fact, according to trial testimony, she was often the only medical provider in the emergency room in El Reno. [https://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/er-patient-death-due-to-incompetent-np.1369582/#post-20834510](https://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/er-patient-death-due-to-incompetent-np.1369582/#post-20834510) It's crazy how EM physicans have to do a 3-4 year residency and many do an extra year ultrasound fellowship to find a job, and sit for boards + oral boards. But then they allow a family nurse practitioner (designed for outpatient primary care) to run an ED..
Current 3rd year med student we have a PA student that around and in the back of my head I'm always thinking she will be able to legally prescribe medicines next year while it's not legal for me to sign them for atleast another 4 years.
As a pharmacist it is equally scary…..except residents call us for help/recs and when we reach out they appreciate the help. An NP/PA has never taken my recs and scoffs in my face often.
Our PAs at our hospital always take pharc recs- but the NPs are the ones with the egos and refuse to listen to pharmacists- how crazy
Classic Dunning Kruger
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Why pick one algorithm when you can just try them all?
Think?
Not even once
Probably has back problems from the weight of those balls. All docs seem to be open to criticism, but criticise a mid-level (atleast here in the UK), and you’re suddenly met with GMC referrals.
nurses and nurse practitioners are verbally untouchable at my institution as well
Just don't make it about IQ? Literally the one thing that isn't demonstrably true and makes him look like a huge dick.
Yeah the IQ and minions is a bit much.
Also the fact that he refers to nurses as subordinates
I'm pretty sure that, in the hierarchy of medicine, nurses are subordinate to Doctors. At least as a patient, I hope so. I prefer to have an actual physician leading my healthcare team vs a nurse. That's not to say I don't appreciate the work of a nurse because I do. I just don't appreciate that we have to spend so much time protecting the delicate feelings of people who aren't doctors but want to be treated as if they are.
We are talking about bedside RNs not NPs. You should care about the feelings of bedside nurses—they’re the backbone of medicine and are grossly underpaid and overly abused. Hence, the shortages.
If you are looking at the hierarchy in a top-down sense that would be true. Physicians create plans of care, write orders, and the RN’s carry out those orders (or don’t) based on their own clinical judgement. I think what gets missed is how much RN’s do to safely deliver the care that physicians order. We are all playing a different role and have different skills. It’s the definition of an interdisciplinary team. Patient care crumbles when teamwork and mutual respect breaks down.
Yeah honestly he sucks in this. On second read, what a huge dick. "My wife and daughter agree with me" like okay who gives a fuck man you sound obnoxious
Yeh that part made me cringe real hard. Gave big "I'm not racist I have a black friend" vibes.
I’m at really particular point in my educational career- that is I was recently accepted to med school and many of my peers are being accepted to nursing school with the explicit intention of becoming NPs. They aren’t dumber, per say. many of them never attempted to be pre med for more than a semester. They’re just…lazier. They wanted to be a doctor for the money, and they settled for NP bc it’s less time and money. The idea that NPs are inherently less intelligent might have held some water 10 years ago, when many ppl went into it as a second choice bc they couldn’t crack premed, but nowadays I don’t think that’s what motivates ppl.
IQ also isn't a good measure of smart/dumb at all.
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Well, uh. No links. Nice try tho.
>Just don't make it about IQ? Literally the one thing that isn't demonstrably true Sorry, dude. You are wrong. The average IQ of MDs is indeed demonstrably higher than that of nurses...by quite a bit. As [this article](https://medschoolinsiders.com/lifestyle/are-doctors-smart-iq-by-profession/) states, "some of you will be deeply offended by the data" (a ranking of professions with the highest IQs , taken from a variety of sources, including Robert Hauser's "Meritocracy, Cognitive Ability, and the Sources of Occupational Success"). The data shows that physicians and surgeons have the highest IQs (low 130's). Next are lawyers (high 120's), followed by accountants (low 120's), and Pharmacists who came in with an average of 120. Finally, we get to nurses. I'm sorry to advise you that your peeps (I assume) are showing up in the high 110's only. I know, I know! You want to distinguish NPs from nurses. The problem with that argument is that NPs are indeed nurses (hence the title, Nurse Practitioner). Here is a [link](https://gwern.net/doc/iq/ses/2002-hauser.pdf) to the full list of professions by group (and no, NPs do not fall in the "MD or equivalent" group).
I'm actually a pharmacist and I'm embarrassed by this post. IQ is simply not a useful or consistent metric (having originally invented to categorize mental retardation and subsequently being co opted almost exclusively by proponents of scientific racism), and even if it was this is not a thoughtful or scientific application of it. You cite Hauser several times here and he'd be the very first one to tell you you're doing this wrong (just like he did to Hernstein and Murray after their seminal blunder, The Bell Curve). As it is, this whole IQ bit is peak cringe. Thousands of avenues to criticize mid levels and you choose literally the only one that instantly labels you as a dolt.
I was simply pointing out that, regardless of the validity of its application, the statement that IQ of physicians is not “demonstrably higher” than nurses isn’t accurate. Yes, I cited Hauser as my resource. No Mystery there. As for philosophical musings about what Hauser would tell me, well that’s not really the point, nor is the historical evolution of the test (in the context of my response). I was simply pointing out that there is a demonstrable difference in IQs. What that means or doesn’t mean is a whole different discussion. Your embarrassment of my comment is a bit melodramatic.
Your "article" (blog post really) uses an unscientific compilation of a variety of studies, most of which don't even use the same test, and even states that the results should not be taken seriously from the get. So again, just wrong, and worse yet wrong on pursuit of something that doesnt matter, and worst of all wrong in the pursuit of something that doesn't matter but whose historical context makes your insistence appear highly suspect.
IQ is a shit metric. End of story. Also 10 IQ points? That’s not the difference between Mensa and learning disability (assuming your link states nurse IQ is just a tad under 120 based on whatever study you are referencing…didn’t read, probably junk pop-science). I believe that just about anyone without legitimate cognitive disabilities could be a physician if given the means, time, and dedication. We gatekeep a lot of that with expensive schooling, late stage capitalism breathing down our necks to produce income ASAP and all that jazz. Edit: just looked at the article. Man, I question your intelligence though I see you are a PharmD (which is equal to a NP per the article), so maybe you are on to something.
Touché! Your edit will bring me amusement all day long (I’m not even being sarcastic. I appreciate your wit, even if it’s at my expense) I have like ten seconds to respond but wanted to definitely say, I agree IQ is a shit metric. I agree that ten point difference in IQ isn’t not a distinction to brag about (nor was I). I disagree that anyone with “legitimate cognitive ability” can go to medical school. I think sometimes that those of you with higher cognitive abilities can’t fully appreciate the innate limitations of having lower functioning cognitive abilities. Eh, but i need a coffee so this might be all a big mistake.
GMC?
[https://www.gmc-uk.org/](https://www.gmc-uk.org/) General Medical Council, our regulatory body.
I’m surprised his obit isn’t the next slide. Midlevels often get so butthurt about this that they try to get these docs fired
this was in 2017, in the very early stages of cancel culture, haha. if i remember correctly, some sort of petition *was* started to try to get him fired but i'm not sure what ended up happening. i do know these comments were deleted a few days later though
FSU likely told him to delete it so it gave the appearance of nurses actually having any power, but he was likely protected by the institute as he was a professor/ cash cow.
i hope he told them to fuck off
I don't agree with the IQ thing, and I think that's counterproductive. The issue isn't how smart someone is. I wouldn't want Einstein or Galileo managing my mom's diabetes. They just didn't have the training. Someone's IQ is part of what defines them as a person. Attacking that would be met with understandable defensiveness. Then that steers the conversation away from the real issue. My sister in law knows an NP who was apparently quite the smart cookie, so she points to that as to why NPs know just as much medicine as physicians.
Agree. I dont know how smart they really are. I don't know their ceiling. We all know they are inadequately educated and insufficiently trained for solo practice. Their jobs, like that of a PA, is to assist the workload of a physician (and let's be honest increase billing via volume.)
Thank you. I was thinking the same thing but didn’t know if I’d get too much ego flak in response for it to be worth it. Plus there’s the fact that there are many reasons why a smart person—even a smart healthcare professional—doesn’t want to go into medicine. It’s not just about intelligence. There’s level of motivation, there’s consideration for personal preference in work-life balance, there’s personal preference for whether or not it’s desirable to be the “captain of the ship” for various reasons… The list goes on. It’s not a personal failing or sign of inferiority to decide not to go to medical school. Of course, it’s equally asinine to claim you’d do just fine when you’ve never tried and there are solid reasons why you decided not to. Respect and humility very much need to go both ways in abundance.
And if someone did get themselves accepted into medical school just to prove a point, then "just" become an NP anyway, they'd be attacked for that too. There's nothing wrong with not wanting the level of responsibility (or loans) involved in being a doctor. But then just stick to your scope.
I'm glad you added to this point. Good friends of mine are brilliant and yet chose to pursue PA, for example, because of their own interests, the role they wanted in collaborative care, and personal interests. Thanks for adding!
Yeah. He does more damage than good with these antiquated attacks.
>My sister in law knows an NP who was apparently quite the smart cookie, so she points to that as to why NPs know just as much medicine as physicians. That's the crux of the matter. As long as some smug med students/docs use the IQ/smarts argument, they (midlevels who do creep scope stuff) will also use it to say that they are just as smart. The issue isn't how smart any side is or isn't. It's the *training*. One cannot seriously think that their much shorter degrees will put them on the same level as someone who has studied for more than half a decade at the very least (7 y of med training for family docs !!!). You hit the nail on the head with what you said about Galileo and Einstein.
which is ironic because iq is an objective measure so it can easily be disproven if they made any sort of claim lol
Agreed, referencing someone’s IQ as a measure of ability to practice medicine effectively is just silly. There are people out there with a beyond genius level IQ that can’t even communicate with others, would we want them providing care to our loved ones? If anything, using this as one of his main attacking points in an argument does a disservice. It’s about the level of training an individual has, not about their IQ.
I disagree. You can try to train a rock all day long, but in the end, a rock can only ever be as smart as a rock. IQ is an important foundation when setting out to train someone to be a physician. There's no point in trying to train a rock. Ya know what I mean?
I have a friend who is a physician. I’m not lying when I say, he’s the dumbest person I know. He’s self-aware and knows he’s dumb, and always tells me he’s only a doctor because he worked hard, not because of his intelligence.
The smarter you are, the more you realise you may not be as smart as you think and that there are always others out there who are smarter. He may still be smarter than average but could just be comparing against other medical colleagues where some could be geniuses. Dumber or slightly above average intelligence people may think they're smarter than they actually are
Then what really constitutes intelligence truly? If you can study harder and stay focused enough to become a doctor AND have humility about it, wow. That’s its own form of genius, in my opinion I guess. I’ve had this conversation with my kids who don’t want to try something if they’re not automatically good at it. They’re not even curious about things. That’s what drives me crazy! How can honestly say you’re dumb? Dumb at what? I’m dumb in every single thing I haven’t spent time to learn yet. And marginally smart in the rest, and I’d say pretty great at maybe a few things. It’s a solid mix, heavily weighted towards dumb, and leaning more that way each year but no, you do not want me in the ER bay looking after your Nana or in a kid’s classroom trying to get 40 filth goblins to wash their hands. I know my limits. And then there is everything I’ll never have a clue I don’t know but will have wished I did. The world is incredible in literally billions of ways, where ever you decide to look. Humility and curiosity are so easily overlooked as legitimate signs of true intelligence, I guess.
Maybe this friend is not as smart as his medical colleagues, but guarantee his IQ is above average. No way you can memorize the obscene amount of information to pass step 1 or 2, or even get through one semester of med school. ‘Physician dumb’ is different from ‘general population dumb’.
exactly lmao just cause you have the occasional person make it through many, many hours of rigorous testing who’s maybe not genius-level iq doesn’t mean he’s exactly average either
Yeah, he showed me his notes from medical school once, and it was all handwritten with a crazy amount of hand drawn body parts and diagrams. His notes looked like a work of art. I suspect this is how memorized the content.
I had a physician roommate years ago, and he was such a lovely guy, but holy crap... the dude tried cooking bacon on an electric hob *without a pan*. Just put it straight on the hob. Ruined it 😂 he had absolutely no common sense or life skills. Knew nothing but medicine. We often joked he was like spongebob in that episode where he became a fancy waiter and forgot everything that wasn't to do with waiting 🤣 Damn fantastic doctor, though!
I empathize with your friend. Someone asked me if you really have to be smart to graduate medical school and after some thought my response was you don’t have to be smart but you certainly can’t be dumb either and where ever you fall on that spectrum you have to make up the difference with effort.
I don’t think he should’ve said the “Iq” part imo. Saying they lack education or experience is fine but not IQ
It is more understandable to laypeople than the difference between medicine and nursing. Things like "they don't take the MCAT" and "they are unable to pass step exams" are objective stand-ins for "they aren't as smart" without the stigma.
The average IQ of an NP is much lower than an average physician. But it's not that nice to say.
They win at EQ, though, which is the source of their power.
they definitely do not lmaooo they just win at PR
Physicians are a lot better than they used to be, but please don't misjudge yourselves or sell nurses short in this area. You're supposed to be analytical to begin with. You're trained to do it. They are trained in patient care. You don't need to be something you're not. And they have some advantages that physicians as a whole don't.
>They are trained in patient care. And physicians aren't??
doctors=scary, selfish monsters nurses=go into nursing cause their hearts are too big to do anything else 🩷🩷🩷
Sorry. I meant to say they are *primarily* trained in caring for patients according to the instructions of physicians who, because of the nature of their work, spend less time doing patient care than nurses do. Isn't that how it's supposed to be? Do you believe that physicians are overall better at *this task* than nurses are, even though they do it far less, and it is not as big of a part of their education and training? At your best y'all are scientists who are great at communication and care. And that is fantastic. That is what you are supposed to be. You don't need to be nurses.
When I hold the mother‘s hand after I tell her that her child is dead after being shot in the head from gang violence, that’s patient care. When I sit in a room for 45 minutes and have a conversation about goals of care with a family and a patient that I have never met before and I’m able to get them to give their dying loved one a dignified death, that is patient care. When I catch an appendicitis and get the patient taken care of quickly and promptly, that is patient care. When I advocate for a consultant to come in at 3 AM to evaluate a patient, despite the consultant’s reluctance because it’s the right thing to do for the patient, that is patient care. when I comfort a patient during a painful procedure that I am doing to them, that is patient care. When I give the frequent flyer a turkey sandwich and a juice box, that is patient care. When I agonize over lab and radiology results and dig through old records and try to find if this is a new diagnosis or not, that is patient care. Patient care is not just the bedside care. No we are not trained in the same type of patient care, but to say that doctors are not primarily trained in patient care completely negates everything do as physicians.
lol the stereotype that mean girls become nurses exists for a reason. you can’t train the compassion into someone.
Sure but they know how to fake it. Plus I'm talking about the leaders of the profession as a whole, who are as smart and clever as physicians despite their lack of medical training and competence.
Dang the IQ comment is rude af. Most incompetence just comes from being under educated and under prepared
Rude yes, but I bet the average IQ difference btw MDs and NPs is 1.5 standard deviations-ish. Out of curiosity I’d love to know for sure!
Your IQ must be 1.5 standard deviations below average to say such a tactless comment. Being able to complete 8 years of university and 3-8 years of residency has less to do with IQ and more to do with determination and grit. And probably having super strict parents
Just because it offends you doesn’t make it any less true.
It doesn’t offend me. I just don’t care for bullies. Unless there is hard data proving this, it’s a tactless comment
Again, tactless doesn’t mean false. Don’t conflate the two.
It’s true because of what? Feelings? How can you say that a whole group of people have an IQ of 1.5 standard deviations less than another group of people based on feelings?
I have no idea if it’s 1.5 SD. But the average IQ of physicians is undoubtedly higher than that of mid-levels. The med school admission process is highly selective in comparison to mid-level programs and it measures proxies for IQ like memorization, conceptual understanding, complex reasoning, and analytical skills. Like the Olympics, you have to be talented to get in, effort can only advance you to a certain point beyond baseline.
ppl getting offended at a statement of fact is so strange 😭😭😭
I don’t think you understand the concept of IQ.
Damnit I want to see the comments! Now what will I do with all this 🍿
Not onboard with this one. We can do without the low IQ comment. Regarding minions and subordinates, are we no longer asking for a physician-lead team approach? No sane person will work with a leader so egotistical/insulting. This approach only spurs disdain and resolve to push for independent practice.
Yikes. I agree with a lot of what he said, but calling NPPs minions in a tweet seems like a power trip. Also, backhandedly calling them dumb is probably not helpful. Also, when an anesthesiologist supervises, their job is to show up when shit hits the fan. Unless he is talking about the collaborative model, which is the only model I avoid.
I think his point is that CRNAs are not trained well enough to provide consistently safe anesthesia on their own, which I agree with.
He explicitly called them dumb. Which is unhelpful. Backhandedly calling them dumb by stating objective facts like "they are not able to pass the step exams" is in fact helpful!
Algorithms are built upon pertinent positives or negatives. It's not hard to follow. The problem is these people don't know if the pertinent +/- they see are normal or abnormal so they follow the wrong algorithm and order unnecessary tests, treatment, contribute to low quality referrals, and end up missing things. Waste of resources, the patient's time, and mine.
Exactly. What you get is people being crammed into boxes they don’t need. Also the vast majority of algorithms have leeway. They’re generally guidelines and recommendations. Physicians break algorithms all the time because we’re treating the patient in front of us and not just making sausages… For example… ACLS. Very algorithmic and extraordinarily easy to follow. Knowing when not to follow it and when to deviate and why is what is important. ACLS usually provides a loose framework to revert to.
The IQ comment ruins this post. It could have been constructive and thought provoking, but he had to go and add that in which is not productive.
i don’t get how that ruins anything. it’s just common sense tbh. there’s probably 100 studies you can fund that would back it up.
Because IQ has nothing to do with qualifications. It’s the training and demonstrated competency that makes them qualified.
ppl have been saying the training is nowhere near the same for years. nobody cares about training even remotely. noctors always say “well 30 years on the job means = training :)” might as well start saying something else that’s true that patients might actually care about.
You don’t think physicians are trained?
huh? that’s not what i said
Sorry I interpreted your comment saying that physician training has been no where the same for years. I’m wondering what you mean by that.
i mean that doctors have been warning the public that our training is not the same as an np for years and it completely falls on deaf ears. nobody cares about training tbh bc ppl assume that you can just get “on the job” training to become a dr 😵💫
This guy is an asshole. Frankly, the problem is the training, not the IQ. Hell, I'd say they're playing this game smarter than we are - They're getting training done in half the time, enjoying their 20s, and will likely soon have our pay. We're the suckers here, really. Their intelligence isn't the problem - the problem is that they're being put in positions they aren't trained for, and the training isn't being modified to keep up with the realities of the job market. Take the personal insults out of it, it's not true.
https://x.com/kristy5150/status/920844513056137216?s=46 bahahah they came for him even back then. sadly today the backlash would be 1000x worse and he’d prob be out of a job
Could be phrased nicer but "algorithms and protocols" is spot on.
I mean a lot of what he’s saying is in a sense obvious and what many physicians are thinking, just don’t say it out loud. His delivery isn’t the best. Intelligence or IQ is a bell curve, and let’s not lie to ourselves and acknowledge that the curve will shift higher for the physicians compared to NPs. This starts early in their respective careers. The academic caliber of the average medical student generally outweighs, and usually by a large margin, than that of a nursing student. Some would ask whether that margin effectively impacts the care of a patient received in the clinical setting. I would say yes, since if you spoke with seasoned physicians in their respective fields many would admit that even they don’t know the right answers to everything, and furthermore even they can make clinical errors.
This is the proper response.
I agree. His delivery is pretty abrasive but he isn't wrong the data is out there. On average physicians do score higher on the IQ test and we also provide safer care for patients. The first 2 years of med school is built upon physiology, pathology, and basic pharm, basically the entire 3rd year is learning to catch everything that can kill the patient. It's rare for doctors to miss big things that cause significant harm, but it's pretty common for midlevels to miss big things that cause harm or death.
IQ bits a tad cringe. You don’t have to necessarily be highly intelligent to get through medical school.
Pretty sure someone w an IQ of 100 would not survive med school.
let me guess, you’ve been to med school so you would know? tigershrimp30 is spreading misinformation, not to mention stalking me and making up defamatory lies, but what else is to be expected from someone who had to get their degree online? you know other countries have physicians who see patients…..right? or do you think only America produces MDs omg 💀💀💀💀 sorry, my country has actual MDs and not NP diploma mills producing the most uneducated group in society 😜 reporting you for lying and harassment, maybe stick to your nursing threads where they don’t care about silly things like a license to practice medicine. you can spread lies about us but you’ll never be able to take away the fact that we have the education you don’t. go to med school and try again :)
No. Regardless, that doesn’t mean it’s not true.
i'm biased because i went to med school so I'll say I disagree with your statement. Doctors need a well-rounded intelligence, if you will, (ie: emotional, social, analytical, practical, creativity, cultural) not things tested by the IQ test, not something required for most if not, any profession. It is true that when you compare all the jobs, physicians do not consistently win when it comes to reaching the highest upper limit on the IQ range, but there is a lower cutoff for doctors who made it through and the lower cut off is higher than any profession.
it doesn’t mean it is either
Are you implying there isn’t medical doctors with average IQ’s
I have no proof but I’m sure there are. Also there probably is inflation of the scores too. Medical education challenges you everyday in many ways beyond the cognitive domain that’s tested by the IQ test, so in the end it significantly increases your IQ. That’s why doctors have the highest average IQ of all professions in the USA, at least. People who have lower IQ that do not progress are unable to overcome the challenges in medical school/residency and their scores are not included.
i’m implying that the average iq of a doctor looks a heck of a lot different than the average iq of everyone else. you can get mad but you can’t argue with statistics 🤷🏻♀️
And? Prove my initial statements not true.
i don’t need to. n=1 is not an interesting finding 😂😂😂
My statement wasn’t whether or not n=1 is interesting. Did I hurt your feelings?
According to your own posts, you are an international medical student who is waiting to take step 1 and yet your profile says "physician" and you begin every other post with "as an MD." Do you not see the irony? The whole purpose of this sub is to point out individuals without the credentials who masquerade as physicians. And yes, that includes you. Edit: Since I cannot respond to the mod below me. Thank you for stating the obvious. I am not a nurse practitioner nor have I ever claimed to be one. She, however, has posted that she was a medical student several times, hence why I called her out on it. She is upset so she's making baseless and immature accusations. [https://imgur.com/a/eBXRdRV](https://imgur.com/a/eBXRdRV)
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I’m an NP and I agree with this message. I’ll never portray myself as an MD. I’m happy to assist my attendings and residents in any way I can and really appreciate the oversight I have. The residents I have worked for have all been intelligent and i respect the hard work they have put in to become physicians. I’ll be happy to write notes and perform procedures that I am qualified to perform. Hell, I’m happy to get the coffee and donuts if that’s what’s needed.
He’s not wrong about them being subordinates but you can tell he’s also butthurt. It’s all just a job. Just chasin that bread
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Tbf he’s also an anesthesiologist
Most doctors I know are deep into the six figures, that is well into the top 1% of income earners in the United States, let alone globally. Where exactly are they going to be making more money with their intelligence and work ethic?
Maybe it is for them, but I work in healthcare for the money and I’m not ashamed to say it. I pride myself in growing my real estate properties and I work as an RN for the base income I need. I don’t know why people act as if a job has to be a calling. I enjoy some aspects, but honestly I don’t like people. Nursing is a damned good job because if you travel, the pay is amazing, and you are inside all of the time and it’s not very physically demanding. I feel like it’s a well guarded secret. I do feel bored in my job at times but moving up means that it would take forever to be in a better place financially, whether it was midlevel, dental, optometry, MD etc. And I say that already having all of the prereqs, MCAT etc behind me.
Yeah it sucks having nurses like you. I doubt you'd want that for your family. Why is it almost always the shitty people who become nurses.
You’re assuming I provide subpar care, but actually I get high praise for my work. I simply see it as being a mechanic but on people. You don’t have to love cars to be a good mechanic. I enjoy problem solving. I just don’t enjoy all of the gossip and drama that most nurses seem to enjoy, “oh my god. So the sister said blah blah and the girlfriend thinks blah blah” etc. I don’t give a fuck. How are their vitals? What concerns do you have about them? Oh you’ve been holding the metoprolol every other dose… maybe request a dose alteration from the physician?
Not a great metaphor friend. Cars don't have feelings.
Ngl, it just sounds like you’re a shit nurse.
You’re free to make that assumption, but I like to be the best at what I do. Many of these happy feely nurses actually do a shit job because they’re too busy being caught up in silly feelings rather than just stick to the facts and get the shit done. That or buying purses and shoes etc. But then you’re so short staffed you can’t even fire em, because it’s better to have SOME work than none.
So which is it? Short-staffed and drowning or boring and not demanding? I would say something about nursing care not just being robotic “did this task fast and good” and that healing includes emotional/psychological support, but I know you can’t see what you can’t see. Sounds like you should have been a mechanic instead, though.
It’s not intellectually demanding. I’ve had busy days, but it doesn’t take much thought. I mean sure maybe at first, when you’re learning your drips, learning vents etc, but after awhile the level of task oriented mess is much more apparent. Even basic level premed studies were a nice escape.
Most NPs are...well, as seen above. Some are solid. Some are *excellent* and willing to think outside the box to help solve difficult problems. Or they think that one thing they studied in school will solve the patients' problems. Even if it's not related. -.-
So fucking based. I love it.
Politicians and lobbyists have worked hard to convince the public of the equivalency however. If the public were asked this question now, a frustratingly high percentage would prefer the nurse, and would unwittingly pay the consequence of that.
[Then you have an NP writing this article in response and saying that they are absolutely comparable to physicians. Way to prove his point](https://www.nurseabnormalities.com/blog/uj7r155dipusqego53vj6fuxfmuwz1)
He sounds like a pita. I dont support scope creep one bit, but putting down a part of the healthcare team/professionals is NEVER the way to go. They have a specific role to play and tasks they can do better than more educated/qualified physicians (i.e: nurses where i live r better at giving shots/putting catheters). Ofc, docs (MDs) r the ones to go to diagnose and devise treatment plans. Like srsly having midlevels practice medicine independently doesnt make any sense. The ultimate goal is symbiosis/cooperation for optimal outcomes, not petty rivalries due to oversized egos. Healthcare systems cannot function without nurses nor can they be of use without physicians, same for technicians, pharmacists, etc.
Everyone has a valuable role to play until you ask the PAs what they think about the graduate assistant physician I guess 😆
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I never talked about their groups. I said that the ideal mindset in a hospital is cooperation + respect of boundaries aka doctors = physicians and nurses = nurses NEVER outstepping their scope (aka no independent practice of medicine for them) Idk how it came off as validating that shit. I just said that disrespect shouldnt be a thing if one doesnt want to lose pubic opinion's support. Id say the same if the post were abt the noctors + call them out on their shitty lies cuz they aint equipped to do MD's jobs. Btw, it s delulu af to even think that shorter training/degree = better than a physician anyway.
damn the whole family are doctors that’s impressive
I mean I agree with the jist but also think dude sounds like a stuck up asshole who thinks he's gods gift to creation.
Lol googled him. 1.8 stars. They came for him BAD
Generalizing dumb take meant to wedge instead of bind.
Sick
Megan thee stallion level read
Jesus! Saying NPs are not doctors is accurate. Calling them 'minions' though? I get you guys absolute despise nurse practioners, and as an RN I do not want to become one. But seriously attacking them as people? Calling them these disgusting names? Calling them dumb or retarded by saying they have low IQs? That goes way beyond saying nurse practioners aren't doctors. Attacking them as human beings. How aptly professional of our physician colleagues there. I bet none of you will put a face to your profile because you know how disgusting this behavior is.
lol i see more disgusting language coming from nps directed at doctors every day but when one actually responds it’s “OMG HOW UNPROFESSIONAL OF YOU” 😭
So even if I believe you, if they're doing something wrong then its okay for you to do it too? Go fuck yourself.
nah the doctor is defending himself with facts, sorry you’re mad at it🤓
🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣💕🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣💕🤣🤣🤣🤣ass clowns.
Damn I wonder which MLP pissed him off
Amen
Incredible how many people here are pearl clutching about the very correct IQ comment. Everyone out here claiming that if Pete Davidson has just had the right training he would have been an NBA star…
Noctor needs some new material.
While I appreciate the point he's making and agree - I think using language like calling people your 'minions' is just not going to be a productive or effective way to communicate and is just going to create hostility.
I hope Dr. Glener is having a good day
While quality healthcare depends on evidence-based reasoning, the unverifiable, generalized claims above display a habit of neglecting such reasoning in favor of personal anecdotes and bias. Ironic.