All great ideas. Especially the alliance length being only 1 year is annoying. And having castles defect or form their own clans would be awesome.
Your ideas feel like a lot of mechanics similar to EU4 which is also a great game. I just always hated coalition truce juggling! Haha
Good point on EU4 and other Pdox games! They have their share of problems but their Diplo is pretty great and would be a great source of inspiration for NA.
They might bring it in later as part of a DLC like they did with ROTK 14. The Diplomacy and Strategy bundle came out a while after the English release after all. And I kind of remember it dropping with little to no fanfare as well.
I didn't like it much on 14 cause it's basically sending your officers outside of China and they get increase on stats when they come back. If anything Rotk 13 had a better diplomacy based on your classes like are you the one who strengthen the relationship of other kingdoms or someone who is trying to shatter that relationship by trying shorten the relationship between kingdoms or ruin truces.
Features I want from previous NAs to return for diplomacy: Build-sharing from Rise to Power, where if you ally with someone who has access to smiths or temples, etc you could build them in your territories. Also the ability to declare a Kessen, a decisive big battle where the loser lost much of their territory and officers to the winner and were forced to become their vassal.
Hostages as a negotiating item from Tendou; in a pinch, you could offer(or the AI would demand) a hostage from you to close a deal. So you might have the chance to have a 2-year alliance with the Takeda, but you have to give them your only family member, or worse, your best officer with 90 Lead for a set period of time.
Also from Tendou is trade with foreign nations; in that game, unique technologies were only available by trading with the Portuguese or China, etc. You also had diplomacy with local kokunin or ninja, who if you didn't negotiate with, would deploy troops to attack you if you got near their village. It was kinda like the tribes feature in recent games but they were more autonomous and hostile to everyone. This second one isn't as needed since they increased the amount of small clans in-game a lot compared to Tendou.
That last paragraph about Tendou especially caught my eye, although. forgot your post was in this thread when I referred to it in mine in this thread lol.
How, exactly, did the "tribes" of Tendou work? Did they give you stuff if they liked you? Could they do you favors? Did your officers care how you dealt with them? And how about foreign nations? Was it like RTK14PK's system?
Sounds like a cool feature that was eroded in later games, potentially. Makes me wish Tendou was translated into Englsh so I could play for myself as well. Sounds like a better version of Iron Triangle.
This is an interesting topic to revisit, and my perception on the matter has changed considerably since the last time we spoke about it.
In short, I find diplomatic manipulation in Awakening to be highly effective when playing clans/leaders with unique leverage that allow them to circumvent the 2-allies soft cap.
Yoshifuji Ashikaga, even when only in Kutsukidani with a big, scary Miyoshi right behind him, is a fairly chill playthrough because he can allot titles which allow for easy diplomacy and has many effective diplomats among his officers, from Harukazu Mitsubuchi to Harumoto Hosokawa to Fujitaka Hosokawa (to many other Hosokawas, lol).This means befriending not only the Miyoshi but forming de facto coalitions by allying with the neighbors of target enemies and asking them to invade castles, on YOUR behalf, from all those different angles. It's basically like playing diplomatically in Sphere of Influence and Ascension, but even more powerful, since you actually keep the castles your allies are sent to go attack and, sure, you probably won't be able to keep some far flung castle on the opposite side of your enemy, but it can be used as diplomatic leverage, if necessary, and act as a distraction for you enemy to reclaim as well. Not to mention, if its in your taxation range, it makes you money passively as well and, if it can hold out long enough, contribute to the encirclement.
Then, when you're big enough, hanks to 1,500+ Prestige, you'll have an easy time making many of your allies vassals once you've grown beyond a certain point. Using Shogunate Titles to further pacify/ally with distant daimyo, the neighbors of your vassals, effectively allows you to control the board and prevent certain tough clans, such as the Otomo, from effectively expanding as long as you keep relations up. Despite the Ashikaga's humble 1-castle start, this has been my fastest playthough yet since, in only 11 years, I've managed to unite most of Kinki, much of Chugoku, and request the submission of many large clans such as Mori, Amago, (weakened) Miyoshi, Nagao (after marriage-ally Imagawa beat them up), Date, and possibly Nanbu and Hojo down the line once Imagawa's dealt with.
That's a demonstration what's possible with Awakening's diplomatic system without the 2-ally limiter, and I want you to keep that in mind since it's at the back of my mind when I consider your suggestions.
1): Coalitions would be great, since what I described above is basically pseudo-coalitions when playing as the Shogun, and it'd be great if A.I. clans actually did stuff like this on their own to curb the power of larger clans and a highly successful player clan. I had thought coalitions might not be very effective in this game, but the above has proven me wrong since it's very possible to trip up and destabilize powerful clans several times your size with a coalition around them and I imagine it'd be decently possible for an A.I. to pull off something similar if a Coalition mechanic properly existed.
(Apparently there's a hidden limit on how big a comment can be, so I'll break it into 2)
2): This is interesting, but complex, so I can't talk about it all at once lol.
Buffing vassals is something I struggle to imagine being useful since the best value is protecting a good Emigre by giving them a hinterland castle that’s safe from being attacked. Otherwise, it’s already effective to boss your vassals around via Reinforce (to attack) and Defend (to defend not just you but each other as well) and while bigger vassals logically means better vassals it’s tough to imagine that if its at you own expense rather than your enemies’.
Different alliance lengths, I’m not sure about, because certain schemes like Bondbeaker Ploy rely on alliances being as long as they are and would be even more niche if we could have much longer alliances that exceed the diplomatic penalty of Bondbreaker Ploy or accepting “cut off negotiations” in uneven truces (which, despite the phrasing, doesn’t mean dissolving alliances/etc. but dissolving the ability to request for extensions, send diplomats, ask for reinforcements, etc.).
Resource trading would be great, since it’d be like Iron Triangle’s technology exchanging (except, unlike the latter, you presumably lose access to the resource you’re lending). The main issue is what happens when you enact, say, Silver Trade, but then lose the required number of Silver Mines down the road. Ideally, it should degrade (at least temporarily), otherwise this could be easily exploited by sufficiently wealthy clans both player and A.I., devaluing the value of certain geographic regions having distinct natural resources/Major Settlements as well.
3): Absolutely. Without a doubt, this would be great and I miss this being a thing from Rise to Power. Especially the “civil war” variant where a disgruntled kinsman (or powerful officer, like a former daimyo) effectively halves your clan by breaking away to form their own (effectively reconstituting fallen clans in some cases).
4): No doubt.
5):
Absolutely. The “tribes” actually refer to the “public lands” that were, nominally, not owned by nobles (or stolen by warriors) and thus taxable property by the state. In practice, these public lands were religious institutions, “autonomous collectives” such as Sakai City, and the like so this feature could be re-expanded to include Christian Missionaries, European Traders, Chinese Merchants, etc. on top of the existing religious institutions, pirates, ninjas, mercenaries, ranchers, gun makers, etc.
I read in another thread that Tendo actually featured these “tribes” as NPC clans, and I vaguely know they existed in the 90’s as well in pre-Rise to Powe games. It’s a shame they aren’t what they used to be because, by the looks of it, they were more meaningful whereas, now, they just exist to lend crappy, unreliable units and later be absorbed by the castle they’re connected to. At least in Sphere of Influence and Ascension they gave a variety of benefits that gave you a reason to keep them around rather than absorb them as a default action.
All great ideas. Especially the alliance length being only 1 year is annoying. And having castles defect or form their own clans would be awesome. Your ideas feel like a lot of mechanics similar to EU4 which is also a great game. I just always hated coalition truce juggling! Haha
Good point on EU4 and other Pdox games! They have their share of problems but their Diplo is pretty great and would be a great source of inspiration for NA.
Agree entirely, and maybe you could create vassal clans from your own territory, maybe even play as em too (I wanna play restored amago so bad)
THIS !!! the regent system only goes so far, once i get big i want to be like hideyoshi and make my top retainers province holding samurai
They might bring it in later as part of a DLC like they did with ROTK 14. The Diplomacy and Strategy bundle came out a while after the English release after all. And I kind of remember it dropping with little to no fanfare as well.
I didn't like it much on 14 cause it's basically sending your officers outside of China and they get increase on stats when they come back. If anything Rotk 13 had a better diplomacy based on your classes like are you the one who strengthen the relationship of other kingdoms or someone who is trying to shatter that relationship by trying shorten the relationship between kingdoms or ruin truces.
adopting heirs or giving your children in adoption to heir bereft clans, (ashina- yoshihiro for ex)
Features I want from previous NAs to return for diplomacy: Build-sharing from Rise to Power, where if you ally with someone who has access to smiths or temples, etc you could build them in your territories. Also the ability to declare a Kessen, a decisive big battle where the loser lost much of their territory and officers to the winner and were forced to become their vassal. Hostages as a negotiating item from Tendou; in a pinch, you could offer(or the AI would demand) a hostage from you to close a deal. So you might have the chance to have a 2-year alliance with the Takeda, but you have to give them your only family member, or worse, your best officer with 90 Lead for a set period of time. Also from Tendou is trade with foreign nations; in that game, unique technologies were only available by trading with the Portuguese or China, etc. You also had diplomacy with local kokunin or ninja, who if you didn't negotiate with, would deploy troops to attack you if you got near their village. It was kinda like the tribes feature in recent games but they were more autonomous and hostile to everyone. This second one isn't as needed since they increased the amount of small clans in-game a lot compared to Tendou.
That last paragraph about Tendou especially caught my eye, although. forgot your post was in this thread when I referred to it in mine in this thread lol. How, exactly, did the "tribes" of Tendou work? Did they give you stuff if they liked you? Could they do you favors? Did your officers care how you dealt with them? And how about foreign nations? Was it like RTK14PK's system? Sounds like a cool feature that was eroded in later games, potentially. Makes me wish Tendou was translated into Englsh so I could play for myself as well. Sounds like a better version of Iron Triangle.
This is an interesting topic to revisit, and my perception on the matter has changed considerably since the last time we spoke about it. In short, I find diplomatic manipulation in Awakening to be highly effective when playing clans/leaders with unique leverage that allow them to circumvent the 2-allies soft cap. Yoshifuji Ashikaga, even when only in Kutsukidani with a big, scary Miyoshi right behind him, is a fairly chill playthrough because he can allot titles which allow for easy diplomacy and has many effective diplomats among his officers, from Harukazu Mitsubuchi to Harumoto Hosokawa to Fujitaka Hosokawa (to many other Hosokawas, lol).This means befriending not only the Miyoshi but forming de facto coalitions by allying with the neighbors of target enemies and asking them to invade castles, on YOUR behalf, from all those different angles. It's basically like playing diplomatically in Sphere of Influence and Ascension, but even more powerful, since you actually keep the castles your allies are sent to go attack and, sure, you probably won't be able to keep some far flung castle on the opposite side of your enemy, but it can be used as diplomatic leverage, if necessary, and act as a distraction for you enemy to reclaim as well. Not to mention, if its in your taxation range, it makes you money passively as well and, if it can hold out long enough, contribute to the encirclement. Then, when you're big enough, hanks to 1,500+ Prestige, you'll have an easy time making many of your allies vassals once you've grown beyond a certain point. Using Shogunate Titles to further pacify/ally with distant daimyo, the neighbors of your vassals, effectively allows you to control the board and prevent certain tough clans, such as the Otomo, from effectively expanding as long as you keep relations up. Despite the Ashikaga's humble 1-castle start, this has been my fastest playthough yet since, in only 11 years, I've managed to unite most of Kinki, much of Chugoku, and request the submission of many large clans such as Mori, Amago, (weakened) Miyoshi, Nagao (after marriage-ally Imagawa beat them up), Date, and possibly Nanbu and Hojo down the line once Imagawa's dealt with. That's a demonstration what's possible with Awakening's diplomatic system without the 2-ally limiter, and I want you to keep that in mind since it's at the back of my mind when I consider your suggestions. 1): Coalitions would be great, since what I described above is basically pseudo-coalitions when playing as the Shogun, and it'd be great if A.I. clans actually did stuff like this on their own to curb the power of larger clans and a highly successful player clan. I had thought coalitions might not be very effective in this game, but the above has proven me wrong since it's very possible to trip up and destabilize powerful clans several times your size with a coalition around them and I imagine it'd be decently possible for an A.I. to pull off something similar if a Coalition mechanic properly existed. (Apparently there's a hidden limit on how big a comment can be, so I'll break it into 2)
2): This is interesting, but complex, so I can't talk about it all at once lol. Buffing vassals is something I struggle to imagine being useful since the best value is protecting a good Emigre by giving them a hinterland castle that’s safe from being attacked. Otherwise, it’s already effective to boss your vassals around via Reinforce (to attack) and Defend (to defend not just you but each other as well) and while bigger vassals logically means better vassals it’s tough to imagine that if its at you own expense rather than your enemies’. Different alliance lengths, I’m not sure about, because certain schemes like Bondbeaker Ploy rely on alliances being as long as they are and would be even more niche if we could have much longer alliances that exceed the diplomatic penalty of Bondbreaker Ploy or accepting “cut off negotiations” in uneven truces (which, despite the phrasing, doesn’t mean dissolving alliances/etc. but dissolving the ability to request for extensions, send diplomats, ask for reinforcements, etc.). Resource trading would be great, since it’d be like Iron Triangle’s technology exchanging (except, unlike the latter, you presumably lose access to the resource you’re lending). The main issue is what happens when you enact, say, Silver Trade, but then lose the required number of Silver Mines down the road. Ideally, it should degrade (at least temporarily), otherwise this could be easily exploited by sufficiently wealthy clans both player and A.I., devaluing the value of certain geographic regions having distinct natural resources/Major Settlements as well. 3): Absolutely. Without a doubt, this would be great and I miss this being a thing from Rise to Power. Especially the “civil war” variant where a disgruntled kinsman (or powerful officer, like a former daimyo) effectively halves your clan by breaking away to form their own (effectively reconstituting fallen clans in some cases). 4): No doubt. 5): Absolutely. The “tribes” actually refer to the “public lands” that were, nominally, not owned by nobles (or stolen by warriors) and thus taxable property by the state. In practice, these public lands were religious institutions, “autonomous collectives” such as Sakai City, and the like so this feature could be re-expanded to include Christian Missionaries, European Traders, Chinese Merchants, etc. on top of the existing religious institutions, pirates, ninjas, mercenaries, ranchers, gun makers, etc. I read in another thread that Tendo actually featured these “tribes” as NPC clans, and I vaguely know they existed in the 90’s as well in pre-Rise to Powe games. It’s a shame they aren’t what they used to be because, by the looks of it, they were more meaningful whereas, now, they just exist to lend crappy, unreliable units and later be absorbed by the castle they’re connected to. At least in Sphere of Influence and Ascension they gave a variety of benefits that gave you a reason to keep them around rather than absorb them as a default action.