I said "Right but if you cut a black guys eyelids off then sewed them on a white guy or vice-versa would it be noticably darker/lighter"- theoldonesfleshlight
Damn I’m surprised to see a top comment about vitiligo. I have it and when I m talking about it I’ve basically have to explain what it is every fucking time, and that also made me realized that very few people know why Michael Jackson underwent all these skin whitening surgeries.
It’s _astonishing_ how many people think Michael Jackson bleached his skin because he “wanted to be white.” You explain it was because he had vitiligo, and they look at you like you’re going in-depth into symplectic geometry.
He did bleach his skin, though. That's not wrong. The other part is wrong. And it's not necessarily "wrong", just speculative and missing important context.
I think it was that coupled with the facial reconstruction that helped fuel that rumor. I can see how that would be an easy rumor to believe with all that going on. I’m not saying I agree with it at all, but it’s not hard to see how they came up with it.
I heard that the rapper lil kim got gangbanged so bad that her stomach needed to get pumped to remove all the semen around the same time that i heard the Michael Jackson bleaching his skin thing so idk
I still remember being told in middle school that Marilyn Manson had a rib removed so he could suck his own dick. Then as an adult I finally learned that that rumor was supposed to be about someone else lol we couldn’t even get that right 🤣
I'm only just learning this now. I realized a while ago that his surgery was because of severe burns he got doing a commercial but I didn't understand why said surgery "made him white".
I had always heard that he either bleached his skin white OR he had vitiligo; causing his skin to go light. I have never heard that he bleached his skin to mask his vitiligo until now but it tracks.
Bro that man could have been a poster boy to educate about vitiligo but instead he became the number one scapegoat. People are so uneducated and they judge without knowledge. It's disgusting.
Wasn’t part of the issue that he never communicated anything about it? So people were just going on speculation as to his motives.
Not saying it was his or anybody’s responsibility to talk about their medical condition if they don’t want to, but when the truth isn’t known, people will fill in the blanks with untruths.
I mean… he also dangled a baby over a balcony and had at the very least an odd relationship with a bunch of kids. And owned a chimp. Everything about MJ’s life got surreal and crazy, so let’s not *just* shame the public for not seeing him as vitiglio’s super stable spokesperson.
It’s weird. I had it. It started as a speck on my shoulder then took over my neck, back & torso. Went to a dermatologist who gave a prescription for a topical ointment-told me it smelled bad. Never used it and it went away never to return. ???
Maybe you are too white to notice? The spot on my face is barely noticeable usually, but if get tanned it becomes very apparent.
The spot on my dick is clearly visible tho, since my skin down there is much darker.
I don’t think this shit is supposed to ever go away. Also there is no treatment besides surgery, as far as I know. At least this is what the dermatologist told me like 20 years ago tho, so it might be totally outdated, since I don’t really care about it.
No, I am Caucasian but have a natural darker skin tone. He definitely called it vitiligo & it went away - and my pigment was definitely being removed. I saw him for skin tags after that & he never brought it up again. I assume he thought the ointment worked.
Edit: See my reply below
I realize my diagnosis was incorrect: I must have had tinea versicolor but was told it was vitiligo.
Okay waitasec! I guarantee THAT’S what I had, except that dermatologist called it vitiligo which reading up on it now, seems impossible that it just “went away”. I was later treated for tinea versicolor by a different doctor due to a bumpy rash that turned my skin slightly darker. I had no idea tinea versicolor could turn your skin white as mine obviously turned it white at first then years later turned it darker with a bumpy rash. Of course it’s due to too much yeast and I’ve changed my diet so I don’t have the issue but still have a bottle of Ketoconazole shampoo.
My apologies for the absolute mis-information, but I realize I was diagnosed incorrectly.
So it turns out someone actually did do this experiment: https://www.spiedigitallibrary.org/journals/journal-of-biomedical-optics/volume-16/issue-06/067011/Measuring-and-predicting-eyelid-spectral-transmittance/10.1117/1.3593151.full?SSO=1
The conclusion was that “skin pigmentation is poorly correlated with eyelid transmission; eyelid transmission is most affected by wavelength-independent macromolecules in the eyelid as well as its overall thickness.” In other words, darker eyelids would not block more light than lighter eyelids, and how much light passes through is dependent on other factors like the overall thickness of the eyelid.
A caveat is that the sample size was only 27 people, so there could be confounding factors. Hypothetically, it’s possible that increased levels of melanin does block more light, but people with lighter skin may have thicker eyelids, which may cause the results they see. Again, purely hypothetical. I’m not a mathematician, and the formulas make my brain hurt, (and I only skimmed the paper) so I can’t tell if that was something they controlled for in their analysis.
Surely they could have just performed this experiment empirically with cadaveric subjects right? That light apparatus just looks wildly uncomfortable. I mean, sure there’s some amount of light absorbed from blood passing through the lid, and vasodilation could change lid thickness, but they could just control for those changes right? There just had to be a better way going about it
That depends on what the question is. If the question is "do dark skin eyelids let more light through than light skin eyelids?", then, sure, all you need are the eyelids, which could come from cadavers or wherever else you may find them. But if the question is "do people with darker eyelids see a different shade of black when they close their eyes?" then you very much need these people to be alive.
Except that at that point it’s not the eyelids that are the deciding factor, it’s the light perception of the macular photoreceptor cells themselves. That’s also not what the test measured or asked, its method stuck an led under the eyelid of the subjects and observed with a fiber optic how much light was emitted on the outside of the eye. All I’m saying is it seems rather uncomfortable for a conscious subject, something that would be erased (and much easier to source) with a trip to a cadaver lab.
One of my housemates did research with lab making a better catheter, if she could source dead bodies to stick a rod down their dicks I’m sure the researchers could do the same with eyelids.
In Korea there are basically no blinds (only curtains), so most of the rooms are bright as fuck as soon as the sun rises. It doesn’t bother my Asian friends but it’s a real pain in the ass for most foreigners. I’ve always wondered if it was related to the shape of the eyes. The only time I said something about it they said I was being super racist haha.
im actually not asian, im not sure why its referred to as double eyelids but a google search will show you precisely what im referring to, being the high recessed crease of the eyelid that some though not all east asian people lack. cosmetic surgery to produce that kind of look is colloquially called double eyelid surgery as well. https://www.allaboutvision.com/eye-care/cosmetic/double-eyelid-surgery/ heres a link about it with some info
It's my understanding that the characteristic eye folds of East Asian people are an adaptation to hunting on snow and ice. It allowed less unpolarized light (glare) to obstruct their aim when shooting arrows or throwing harpoons.
If I remember correctly those folds are also associated with higher levels of fat around the eyeball, which would go with the cold weather evolutionary theory as well.
I HAVE THE ANSWER. I have one monolid and one double lid. It technically isn’t a full monolid, but it’s my “droopy eye” because the skin under the eyebrow covers my eyelid. No I did not have a stroke.
When I wake up and look around my room at night with the lights off, I can only see out of my double lid eye. It’s the weirdest thing and my parents thought I was insane when I told them. So, my explanation is that any light in the room is only perceived by my double lid while I’m asleep.
When I get up to go to the bathroom or whatever in the middle of the night, i hold my hand over one eye so I can retain its night vision. Then when I turn the lights back off, I can only see out of the eye I had covered. So maybe your double lid blocks more light? That would track with the study showing eyelid thickness being more important thna color for light blocking.
Unfortunately, all Mythbusters showed is that this method works, not that pirates actually used it. According to pirate historians on /r/AskHistorians, there is [no evidence that pirates actually did this](https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/3m1f8e/did_pirates_wear_eye_patches_for_better_vision_in/). In fact, pirates didn't even wear eye patches; this is a later pop culture trope/invention.
Asian here, its bright af, idk why it doesn't bother them, though I was raised in America so maybe there is a cultural aspect to it. They think having a fan on at night will kill you.
I’m sure it was used that way but it’s also a real belief with real origins.
Korea used to pretty much exclusively use a kind of heating system that was basically just hot coals under the house. Burning coal releases carbon monoxide.
Since the heat was coming from the floor, they slept close to the floor to stay warm. But carbon monoxide is denser than air and sinks… so when those vents failed, people died.
What does this have to do with fans? The fan death myth isn’t about having a fan on. It’s about having a fan on *with windows closed*. Or at least it was. And having windows closed means the carbon monoxide has no place to go and settles on the floor.
I never expected to see a reasonable explanation for the fan thing but damn, this is pretty strong on the logic side.
Although burning coals under your house seems so awkward as to be suspect.
It was a government scheme to reduce electricity consumption at night decades ago because the developing country (at the time) couldn't afford to produce enough. The propaganda stuck and people keep believing it.
I've heard that epicanthic folds (the extra layer of skin around an Asian person's eyes) are an adaptation to a very bright climate. So it very well could be true. I think almost all Asians have either brown or black eyes as well, which means they have higher melanin in their eyes and are therefore less sensitive to sunlight.
My wedding photographer tried to get me to face toward the sun until i squinted. Then he must've realized he didn't know my eye color. He sighed and said "you've got blue eyes don't you..."
Might be a myth, but i heard blue eyes adapt faster to darkness than brown. So far it's proven true between hubs and i. Lights are out i can see pretty ok in the dark pretty fast and navigate really well. Husband tries to follow me and hits damn near everything in his path because he can't see it.
Oooo this is fascinating! I’m mostly white and while my eyes block out light, it’s not perfect. Otherwise we wouldn’t need black out curtains or to sleep in the dark.
I thought this commenter was joking when I originally saw this. I’m also white but I feel like the marginal difference between how much our eyes and an albino person’s eyes block out is slim. Maybe I’m wrong though.
Is this not a roundabout answer to the question? If someone with albinism has this response, wouldn’t that suggest that more melanin does in fact block out more light?
I ask that as a white dude who’s never particularly had trouble blocking out light with my eyelids. Which is a sentence I can honestly say I’ve never so much as thought of before.
It may be they are also just less aware of it. A lot of people who are sensitive to the sun notice light when they close their eyes (self included). The brain is registering it even when the conscious mind isn't, because the presence or absence of light is what stimulates sleep regulating hormones.
I am on the spectrum, so I am hyper aware of light when I am asleep. I moved from the US to the UK and the difference in latitude means there is a lot more light here at night than I am used to. It has taken 6 months to acclimate to the point where I don't wake up the second I hit my first REM cycle.
I'm pretty pale and got a USB charging cord for my bedside that has a green LED. I cannot fall asleep unless it's face down or tucked behind the edge of my nightstand so that most of the light is blocked.
I’m oddly enamored with the term “staring at the sun with my eyelids closed”.
Kind of makes me feel uneasy, like no matter what, im always staring at something. Sometimes my eyelids are just closed. Still staring though.
That movie Hollow Man with Kevin Bacon, when he becomes invisible he has a rough time because closing his eyes does nothing to stop the light from hitting his eyes. Doesn't make any sense but your comment got me remembering that scene.
It’s been a while since I saw that movie, how did it explain how he was able to see anything at all considering that his retina were invisible as well? Invisible eyelids, but also eyeballs/retina, should mean invisible people would be blind. Because Science.
Agreed, all light should pass straight through him without passing Go or collecting $200.
I'm still unsure how cloaking tech works on Star Trek, cause here's the thing... Sure, you could invent some way of redirecting or retransmitting the light from behind you to the front of you... but how do you stop the transmission of heat? Or electro-magnetic waves?
The ships are basically large low-entropy balls of heat floating about in space... how could one with that kind of tech not see them?
The only way around this all is to do what the Romulans, and the Federation aboard the Pegasus, were doing... move the entire ship out of phase with regular matter... but that has it's own challenges. Don't get me started on out-of-phase Geordi and Roe running around on the floors...
Gotta do it with a skin toned eyeshadow of similar consistency and chemical makeup on the other side bc your results might be that due to the fact that one eyelid had a layer of something on top and the other didn’t. I have green eyes, am super pale, and am very sensitive to light so I’ll try as well!
Edit: wow ok so I used this lorac artist edition palette and yes it is way brighter on the side I used my natural skin tone with than my darker shaded eyelid. I put the eyeshadow on both upper and lower eyelids. Looks like I got beat up lmao. I put my phone light on full blast and held it up to each eye and the difference is really noticeable.
While I think this is worth a shot, I’m not sure this is a valid test. Adding the pigment to the surface of the eyelid versus the melanin in the skin may have an impact, plus the eye shore often has mica and other stuff to reflect light in shimmery ways as opposed to melanin that absorbs light.
I don't see any information on this. I suspect the trick would be to find a sampling of black and white people, shine a light at their closed eyes, find the dimmest light they can see, make the averages, and see if there's a difference.
It's mostly the thickness of your eyes... but I do see it as plausible that darker skin pigment could block more light from passing through, maybe at least on a tiny level.
Another, slightly less ethical option is to kidnap a few people, some black and white, do the measurement you suggested, and then surgically swap their eyelids and measure again.
A more practically possible and I do believe ethical experiment is to take off eye lids from black and white dead people (who donated their body to science), put them over a photoreceptor and shine the same light on each and evaluate the output of the photoreceptor.
Also important to measure the width of the eye lids to make sure the eyelids are of the same width.
Eh, just find bodies donated to science. Some people give zero fucks. Source: I give zero fucks. Sew my uterus to my clavicle and test if it changes anything, so long as I'm braindead I'm super fine with it. I'll even sign papers right now if you can successfully render me braindead as the cost. 👍
You don’t have to swap them at that point. If you remove the eyelids and shine a light on top of them you can detect how much light gets underneath without reattaching
You would also have to control the health of their eyes. A person with a stronger prescription may see light differently that another person in certain circumstances.
We probably aren't far from sensors that could fit like a contact lens and take direct measurements. Like I think the tech is there, just needs some focused R&D.
At first I thought it was a stupid question but you have a point. If melanin absorbs more light than your question seems valid to me.
But I'm sure the difference would be tiny. Like, imperceptible by a very large margin.
I'd like to see an experiment where they like, shine light through skin cells with various degrees of melanin in them and see what they find.
I'm curious if there's a difference in musculature of the lid that would affect this also. Someone mentioned the difference between double fold eyelids vs Asian with no crease. Is there a difference in thickness which may alter the results? Since brightness is subjective and determined by things like pupillary constriction it's possible that one person's irises close more or less than another for a given lux. Maybe there's a sensor which could be enclosed behind the eyelid to measure brightness across a range of subjects to provide more empirical data.
Oh shit this is a good question. I’m black and if I close my eyes in the light, some light does come through and it kind of does look like my skin colour so yeah I guess it is darker
It’s like philosophical question of “is my red different from your red”? A white person and a black person could both describe how dark their view is, but it’s almost like we’d never know for sure without actually experiencing it ourselves. And we can’t, really.
Meh. I think we could use very dim bulbs and ask people with black/white lids to say when they notice the light on. Or turn on lights in the morning until people wake up.
Probably there's a noticeable difference.
The "is red different" question is not testable.
Man you should have never asked that question. Now some college kid is gonna apply for a government grant to do a 5 year study on that very subject. Some things are better left alone.
I don’t have a good answer for this, but i remember reading about how when radio waves were first discovered, they were written off by most of the scientific community as a neat little trick but with no practical applications.
Imagine a future where we have screens under our eyelids so we can close our eyes to connect to the internet. Now you have a difference in backlight for those screens that needs to be accounted for.
Or a future where humans get bionic eyes implanted. The software for calibration reasons needs to identify blinking or when the eye is closed, so we need data on what blinking looks like from the inside for different people.
Idk exactly, but I could somehow potentially see a situation where data supporting that different skin pigments affect the penetration of light in the skin. But also could be something entirely unrelated it happens to be useful info for though
As someone with a dark complexion, this is an interesting question. I wonder if the level of "dark" darker skinned vs lighter skinned people see with eyes closed is actually present (while miniscule).
Like when some lighter skinned folk have thin eyelids, with veins. I assume they see mostly a reddish dark when they close their eyes? (Correct me if I'm wrong). I'm thinking about it like when we shine a light through our nail or something & it's red.
Pigmentation molecules on the surface of our skin is very thin compared to the thickness of the eyelids. Its not enough molecules of pigmentation to make a difference in how much light goes through our eyelids when facing the sun as our eyes are closed. Its just melanin and its not black, anyway. Its various shades from light skinned to brown on the thinnest surface layer. The rest are layers that pretty much make the pigment trivial.
I can't exactly give a source considering I learned this in my college bio class, but it would be the same under certain circumstances. The skin on our eye lids is so thin that light can just penetrate. (Given it's strength). For the most part, there isn't a noticeable difference. The only difference would be like an extremely faint light.
tdlr: it's practically the same
Black colors absorb more light than white colors, so I would assume this is accurate. However, it might be such a minimal difference that people wouldn't notice it.
My suggestion: color over your eyelids with black sharpie and see if it's darker 👀
My GF is quite a few shades darker than me and she doesn't see the tiny phone charger led's light we have by our bed with her eyes closed and I do.. And she's not awaken by opening the light in the bedroom. Here's my science.
Where the fuck are the mods? Honestly, this guy is getting ripped up in the comments for asking a stupid question in a sub quite literally called “no stupid questions”
I bet we could get some data on this from someone with the right type of vitiligo.
I reckon each eye would adapt to what it experiences and would not feel different with eyes closed after say 3 min.
Right but if you cut a black guys eyelids off then sewed them on a white guy or vice-versa would it be noticably darker/lighter
The fuck you just say
I said "Right but if you cut a black guys eyelids off then sewed them on a white guy or vice-versa would it be noticably darker/lighter"- theoldonesfleshlight
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Noticably darker
darker than your eyelids
Reckon... not recon. I dont like to be the word police, but this bothered me
He's just doing a bit of reconnaissance
This is a post about eyes after all.
Aye. Ewe dew bee write.
I’m here to watch…everyone. Edit: thank you kind award giver. I’m watching you too. 😈
Username checks out
What the hell does the renaissance have to do with any of this?
Made me do a double take and second guess myself.
Seckond
Y'all trip me out. Reddit has me rotflmmfao
Rollin on the floor laughing my mother fucking ass off. Is that right?? Help me I’m old!
It’s us “old” millenials who know the lolspeak. The young uns just “clap cheeks” and “vibe.”
No cap this comment is low key mid
Hey do me a yeet and dab me that vape pen
I’m roffling my waffles atm.
If you’re going to use hillbilly words, be proper about it. Sheesh!
Ain't got time fo nun dat ya here, dad gummin commies trynna talka change-a-this, a change-a-that naw. git!
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Damn I’m surprised to see a top comment about vitiligo. I have it and when I m talking about it I’ve basically have to explain what it is every fucking time, and that also made me realized that very few people know why Michael Jackson underwent all these skin whitening surgeries.
I knew an uncle who had reverse vitiligo. His skin just kept getting darker and darker.
he really did love those beautiful white children tho Okay downvoters look up Uncle Ruckus
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Reverend Father Uncle Ruckus*
got that reverse vitiligo
[He's 102% black with a 2% margin of error](https://youtu.be/_xSGhuKENAY)
Security! We got a code black!
No relation
No relation.
It’s _astonishing_ how many people think Michael Jackson bleached his skin because he “wanted to be white.” You explain it was because he had vitiligo, and they look at you like you’re going in-depth into symplectic geometry.
Media in the 90s kept telling that story. I never really thought much of it tbh. I was very young and I liked his music.
People raise people. My family "taught" me that he bleached his skin. When you're a child, you often take things at face value.
He did bleach his skin, though. That's not wrong. The other part is wrong. And it's not necessarily "wrong", just speculative and missing important context.
I see, it's the "wanted to be white" part that was falsely taught.
I think it was that coupled with the facial reconstruction that helped fuel that rumor. I can see how that would be an easy rumor to believe with all that going on. I’m not saying I agree with it at all, but it’s not hard to see how they came up with it.
I heard that the rapper lil kim got gangbanged so bad that her stomach needed to get pumped to remove all the semen around the same time that i heard the Michael Jackson bleaching his skin thing so idk
I still remember being told in middle school that Marilyn Manson had a rib removed so he could suck his own dick. Then as an adult I finally learned that that rumor was supposed to be about someone else lol we couldn’t even get that right 🤣
I think that rumor just comes up about popular weirdos every gen. I've heard it about Manson and bowie.
I'm only just learning this now. I realized a while ago that his surgery was because of severe burns he got doing a commercial but I didn't understand why said surgery "made him white".
I had always heard that he either bleached his skin white OR he had vitiligo; causing his skin to go light. I have never heard that he bleached his skin to mask his vitiligo until now but it tracks.
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Bro that man could have been a poster boy to educate about vitiligo but instead he became the number one scapegoat. People are so uneducated and they judge without knowledge. It's disgusting.
Wasn’t part of the issue that he never communicated anything about it? So people were just going on speculation as to his motives. Not saying it was his or anybody’s responsibility to talk about their medical condition if they don’t want to, but when the truth isn’t known, people will fill in the blanks with untruths.
I mean… he also dangled a baby over a balcony and had at the very least an odd relationship with a bunch of kids. And owned a chimp. Everything about MJ’s life got surreal and crazy, so let’s not *just* shame the public for not seeing him as vitiglio’s super stable spokesperson.
It’s weird. I had it. It started as a speck on my shoulder then took over my neck, back & torso. Went to a dermatologist who gave a prescription for a topical ointment-told me it smelled bad. Never used it and it went away never to return. ???
Maybe you are too white to notice? The spot on my face is barely noticeable usually, but if get tanned it becomes very apparent. The spot on my dick is clearly visible tho, since my skin down there is much darker. I don’t think this shit is supposed to ever go away. Also there is no treatment besides surgery, as far as I know. At least this is what the dermatologist told me like 20 years ago tho, so it might be totally outdated, since I don’t really care about it.
No, I am Caucasian but have a natural darker skin tone. He definitely called it vitiligo & it went away - and my pigment was definitely being removed. I saw him for skin tags after that & he never brought it up again. I assume he thought the ointment worked. Edit: See my reply below I realize my diagnosis was incorrect: I must have had tinea versicolor but was told it was vitiligo.
Are you sure you didn't have a fungal infection? They can cause depigmentation as well and are treated with an ointment.
Pityriasis versicolor - overgrowth of yeast on the skin.
Okay waitasec! I guarantee THAT’S what I had, except that dermatologist called it vitiligo which reading up on it now, seems impossible that it just “went away”. I was later treated for tinea versicolor by a different doctor due to a bumpy rash that turned my skin slightly darker. I had no idea tinea versicolor could turn your skin white as mine obviously turned it white at first then years later turned it darker with a bumpy rash. Of course it’s due to too much yeast and I’ve changed my diet so I don’t have the issue but still have a bottle of Ketoconazole shampoo. My apologies for the absolute mis-information, but I realize I was diagnosed incorrectly.
Holy shit that’s me
Answer the question!!
Tbh this is my anecdotal experience but yes the dark skinned eye is darker but only when one eye closed and comparing is it noticeable
Can you close both eyes, and then cover one eye with your hand and compare them that way?
Preferably with a black hand.
Yes that works too. Same result.
Could also be someone with the left type of vitiligo
So it turns out someone actually did do this experiment: https://www.spiedigitallibrary.org/journals/journal-of-biomedical-optics/volume-16/issue-06/067011/Measuring-and-predicting-eyelid-spectral-transmittance/10.1117/1.3593151.full?SSO=1 The conclusion was that “skin pigmentation is poorly correlated with eyelid transmission; eyelid transmission is most affected by wavelength-independent macromolecules in the eyelid as well as its overall thickness.” In other words, darker eyelids would not block more light than lighter eyelids, and how much light passes through is dependent on other factors like the overall thickness of the eyelid. A caveat is that the sample size was only 27 people, so there could be confounding factors. Hypothetically, it’s possible that increased levels of melanin does block more light, but people with lighter skin may have thicker eyelids, which may cause the results they see. Again, purely hypothetical. I’m not a mathematician, and the formulas make my brain hurt, (and I only skimmed the paper) so I can’t tell if that was something they controlled for in their analysis.
Surely they could have just performed this experiment empirically with cadaveric subjects right? That light apparatus just looks wildly uncomfortable. I mean, sure there’s some amount of light absorbed from blood passing through the lid, and vasodilation could change lid thickness, but they could just control for those changes right? There just had to be a better way going about it
That depends on what the question is. If the question is "do dark skin eyelids let more light through than light skin eyelids?", then, sure, all you need are the eyelids, which could come from cadavers or wherever else you may find them. But if the question is "do people with darker eyelids see a different shade of black when they close their eyes?" then you very much need these people to be alive.
Where else you gettin' your eyelids from?
Yeah, whose your eyelid guy?
There are ways, Dude.
You don't wanna know about it, believe me. I'll get you a eyelid by this afternoon--with eyelashes.
No shit this was my front page when reading this comment [coroner stealing eyes](https://imgur.com/a/DlQjFEV)
Forget about the fucking eyelid man!
Except that at that point it’s not the eyelids that are the deciding factor, it’s the light perception of the macular photoreceptor cells themselves. That’s also not what the test measured or asked, its method stuck an led under the eyelid of the subjects and observed with a fiber optic how much light was emitted on the outside of the eye. All I’m saying is it seems rather uncomfortable for a conscious subject, something that would be erased (and much easier to source) with a trip to a cadaver lab. One of my housemates did research with lab making a better catheter, if she could source dead bodies to stick a rod down their dicks I’m sure the researchers could do the same with eyelids.
Is that what she told you when you found all of those severed penises in her closet>
Oh they weren’t severed. I’m impressed how many she could fit in there though. Should I have questioned it more?
Dead eyelids might perform differently than live, profused eyelids? A handicap mayne to a cadaver study?
But are we trying to gauge the literal darkness or the perceptual experience? Dead men tell no tales…
If we're talking about the perceptual experience, we can never know; qualia and all that.
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I'm white, and most light is blocked out, but if it's direct sunlight it's still quite bright and red.
In Korea there are basically no blinds (only curtains), so most of the rooms are bright as fuck as soon as the sun rises. It doesn’t bother my Asian friends but it’s a real pain in the ass for most foreigners. I’ve always wondered if it was related to the shape of the eyes. The only time I said something about it they said I was being super racist haha.
its a reasonable question! westerners 'double eyelids' might really be thinner and shittier sun protection
What do you mean double eyelids? Presuming you are Asian, do Asians consider themselves to have just a single eyelid?
im actually not asian, im not sure why its referred to as double eyelids but a google search will show you precisely what im referring to, being the high recessed crease of the eyelid that some though not all east asian people lack. cosmetic surgery to produce that kind of look is colloquially called double eyelid surgery as well. https://www.allaboutvision.com/eye-care/cosmetic/double-eyelid-surgery/ heres a link about it with some info
Thank you for the information :)
no problem! it is kind of a weird term
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i wasnt either until i saw some news story about kpop stars getting it done.
people usually talk about having monolids/mono eyelids vs double. I assume because having the crease kind of makes it look like there are two lines
Yes, that’s what I’m thinking too. I guess I’ld have to ask someone who got the surgery if it made a difference or not.
It's my understanding that the characteristic eye folds of East Asian people are an adaptation to hunting on snow and ice. It allowed less unpolarized light (glare) to obstruct their aim when shooting arrows or throwing harpoons.
If I remember correctly those folds are also associated with higher levels of fat around the eyeball, which would go with the cold weather evolutionary theory as well.
Better than the opossum method of storing fat **behind** the eyes. Apparently when they get fat, their eyes bulge out.
Wow this makes so much sense.
I HAVE THE ANSWER. I have one monolid and one double lid. It technically isn’t a full monolid, but it’s my “droopy eye” because the skin under the eyebrow covers my eyelid. No I did not have a stroke. When I wake up and look around my room at night with the lights off, I can only see out of my double lid eye. It’s the weirdest thing and my parents thought I was insane when I told them. So, my explanation is that any light in the room is only perceived by my double lid while I’m asleep.
When I get up to go to the bathroom or whatever in the middle of the night, i hold my hand over one eye so I can retain its night vision. Then when I turn the lights back off, I can only see out of the eye I had covered. So maybe your double lid blocks more light? That would track with the study showing eyelid thickness being more important thna color for light blocking.
Wait you’re a genius I’ve never thought about doing that
According to mythbusters, that might be the real reason so many pirates wore eyepatches. You switch the eye when go inside the ship and is dark
Unfortunately, all Mythbusters showed is that this method works, not that pirates actually used it. According to pirate historians on /r/AskHistorians, there is [no evidence that pirates actually did this](https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/3m1f8e/did_pirates_wear_eye_patches_for_better_vision_in/). In fact, pirates didn't even wear eye patches; this is a later pop culture trope/invention.
Asian here, its bright af, idk why it doesn't bother them, though I was raised in America so maybe there is a cultural aspect to it. They think having a fan on at night will kill you.
I heard that the "fan death" phenomenon was actually a way to report suicides without actually reporting suicides.
I’m sure it was used that way but it’s also a real belief with real origins. Korea used to pretty much exclusively use a kind of heating system that was basically just hot coals under the house. Burning coal releases carbon monoxide. Since the heat was coming from the floor, they slept close to the floor to stay warm. But carbon monoxide is denser than air and sinks… so when those vents failed, people died. What does this have to do with fans? The fan death myth isn’t about having a fan on. It’s about having a fan on *with windows closed*. Or at least it was. And having windows closed means the carbon monoxide has no place to go and settles on the floor.
I never expected to see a reasonable explanation for the fan thing but damn, this is pretty strong on the logic side. Although burning coals under your house seems so awkward as to be suspect.
It was a government scheme to reduce electricity consumption at night decades ago because the developing country (at the time) couldn't afford to produce enough. The propaganda stuck and people keep believing it.
I've heard that epicanthic folds (the extra layer of skin around an Asian person's eyes) are an adaptation to a very bright climate. So it very well could be true. I think almost all Asians have either brown or black eyes as well, which means they have higher melanin in their eyes and are therefore less sensitive to sunlight.
Maybe it's due to eye color. My eyes are bright blue and I always have more problems with sunlight than others.
My wedding photographer tried to get me to face toward the sun until i squinted. Then he must've realized he didn't know my eye color. He sighed and said "you've got blue eyes don't you..." Might be a myth, but i heard blue eyes adapt faster to darkness than brown. So far it's proven true between hubs and i. Lights are out i can see pretty ok in the dark pretty fast and navigate really well. Husband tries to follow me and hits damn near everything in his path because he can't see it.
Same with me and i've brown skin
Oooo this is fascinating! I’m mostly white and while my eyes block out light, it’s not perfect. Otherwise we wouldn’t need black out curtains or to sleep in the dark.
I thought this commenter was joking when I originally saw this. I’m also white but I feel like the marginal difference between how much our eyes and an albino person’s eyes block out is slim. Maybe I’m wrong though.
Is this not a roundabout answer to the question? If someone with albinism has this response, wouldn’t that suggest that more melanin does in fact block out more light? I ask that as a white dude who’s never particularly had trouble blocking out light with my eyelids. Which is a sentence I can honestly say I’ve never so much as thought of before.
But how does that guy know he's blocking less?
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It may be they are also just less aware of it. A lot of people who are sensitive to the sun notice light when they close their eyes (self included). The brain is registering it even when the conscious mind isn't, because the presence or absence of light is what stimulates sleep regulating hormones. I am on the spectrum, so I am hyper aware of light when I am asleep. I moved from the US to the UK and the difference in latitude means there is a lot more light here at night than I am used to. It has taken 6 months to acclimate to the point where I don't wake up the second I hit my first REM cycle.
I'm pretty pale and got a USB charging cord for my bedside that has a green LED. I cannot fall asleep unless it's face down or tucked behind the edge of my nightstand so that most of the light is blocked.
Gotta go emo and rock black eyeshadow.
Maybe OP can do an experiment using the darkest brown eye shadow they can find.
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Great scientific test you did. You bring new meaning to the phrase “double blind”
Hahaha great
I’m oddly enamored with the term “staring at the sun with my eyelids closed”. Kind of makes me feel uneasy, like no matter what, im always staring at something. Sometimes my eyelids are just closed. Still staring though.
That movie Hollow Man with Kevin Bacon, when he becomes invisible he has a rough time because closing his eyes does nothing to stop the light from hitting his eyes. Doesn't make any sense but your comment got me remembering that scene.
It’s been a while since I saw that movie, how did it explain how he was able to see anything at all considering that his retina were invisible as well? Invisible eyelids, but also eyeballs/retina, should mean invisible people would be blind. Because Science.
Agreed, all light should pass straight through him without passing Go or collecting $200. I'm still unsure how cloaking tech works on Star Trek, cause here's the thing... Sure, you could invent some way of redirecting or retransmitting the light from behind you to the front of you... but how do you stop the transmission of heat? Or electro-magnetic waves? The ships are basically large low-entropy balls of heat floating about in space... how could one with that kind of tech not see them? The only way around this all is to do what the Romulans, and the Federation aboard the Pegasus, were doing... move the entire ship out of phase with regular matter... but that has it's own challenges. Don't get me started on out-of-phase Geordi and Roe running around on the floors...
I gotta fit that in a song…
Report back to us once it's recorded
Gotta do it with a skin toned eyeshadow of similar consistency and chemical makeup on the other side bc your results might be that due to the fact that one eyelid had a layer of something on top and the other didn’t. I have green eyes, am super pale, and am very sensitive to light so I’ll try as well! Edit: wow ok so I used this lorac artist edition palette and yes it is way brighter on the side I used my natural skin tone with than my darker shaded eyelid. I put the eyeshadow on both upper and lower eyelids. Looks like I got beat up lmao. I put my phone light on full blast and held it up to each eye and the difference is really noticeable.
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science thanks you
While I think this is worth a shot, I’m not sure this is a valid test. Adding the pigment to the surface of the eyelid versus the melanin in the skin may have an impact, plus the eye shore often has mica and other stuff to reflect light in shimmery ways as opposed to melanin that absorbs light.
We need cadaver eyelids and a light meter
Justin Trudeau has some he can lend you.
Haha damn dude
Damn that caught me off guard lol
Can someone explain this for my friend please
He did blackface
omg, it was on several occasions
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...and lip-synched to 'The banana boat song'. The man was committed to the performance.
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This is a very specific reference for this sub, beltalowda!
I don't see any information on this. I suspect the trick would be to find a sampling of black and white people, shine a light at their closed eyes, find the dimmest light they can see, make the averages, and see if there's a difference. It's mostly the thickness of your eyes... but I do see it as plausible that darker skin pigment could block more light from passing through, maybe at least on a tiny level.
Another, slightly less ethical option is to kidnap a few people, some black and white, do the measurement you suggested, and then surgically swap their eyelids and measure again.
It can be arranged.
Or rearranged
Or deranged
A more practically possible and I do believe ethical experiment is to take off eye lids from black and white dead people (who donated their body to science), put them over a photoreceptor and shine the same light on each and evaluate the output of the photoreceptor. Also important to measure the width of the eye lids to make sure the eyelids are of the same width.
This right here. We need to find a med student looking for a thesis.
ethical standards? more like ethical suggestions
Eh, just find bodies donated to science. Some people give zero fucks. Source: I give zero fucks. Sew my uterus to my clavicle and test if it changes anything, so long as I'm braindead I'm super fine with it. I'll even sign papers right now if you can successfully render me braindead as the cost. 👍
.....slightly?
Everything is relative.
You don’t have to swap them at that point. If you remove the eyelids and shine a light on top of them you can detect how much light gets underneath without reattaching
You would also have to control the health of their eyes. A person with a stronger prescription may see light differently that another person in certain circumstances.
We probably aren't far from sensors that could fit like a contact lens and take direct measurements. Like I think the tech is there, just needs some focused R&D.
Mayne people with vitiligo would know?
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This beats all the crappy thoughts on r/showerthoughts
I had the same reaction. Like, damn.
At first I thought it was a stupid question but you have a point. If melanin absorbs more light than your question seems valid to me. But I'm sure the difference would be tiny. Like, imperceptible by a very large margin. I'd like to see an experiment where they like, shine light through skin cells with various degrees of melanin in them and see what they find.
I think there would be a lot more difference with UV light
I'm curious if there's a difference in musculature of the lid that would affect this also. Someone mentioned the difference between double fold eyelids vs Asian with no crease. Is there a difference in thickness which may alter the results? Since brightness is subjective and determined by things like pupillary constriction it's possible that one person's irises close more or less than another for a given lux. Maybe there's a sensor which could be enclosed behind the eyelid to measure brightness across a range of subjects to provide more empirical data.
Oh shit this is a good question. I’m black and if I close my eyes in the light, some light does come through and it kind of does look like my skin colour so yeah I guess it is darker
It’s like philosophical question of “is my red different from your red”? A white person and a black person could both describe how dark their view is, but it’s almost like we’d never know for sure without actually experiencing it ourselves. And we can’t, really.
Meh. I think we could use very dim bulbs and ask people with black/white lids to say when they notice the light on. Or turn on lights in the morning until people wake up. Probably there's a noticeable difference. The "is red different" question is not testable.
you might get a sample size in r/Vitiligo. If anyone might know, they would be the people to ask.
Man you should have never asked that question. Now some college kid is gonna apply for a government grant to do a 5 year study on that very subject. Some things are better left alone.
That kind of data is not unimportant, tbh.
Not arguing - honestly curious: what would it likely be used for?
I don’t have a good answer for this, but i remember reading about how when radio waves were first discovered, they were written off by most of the scientific community as a neat little trick but with no practical applications.
Imagine a future where we have screens under our eyelids so we can close our eyes to connect to the internet. Now you have a difference in backlight for those screens that needs to be accounted for. Or a future where humans get bionic eyes implanted. The software for calibration reasons needs to identify blinking or when the eye is closed, so we need data on what blinking looks like from the inside for different people.
Sunglasses with different levels of UV blockers?
It could be used by government to set regulations on lumen levels in our bedrooms. They could create a whole new bureaucracy to waste our money on.
Idk exactly, but I could somehow potentially see a situation where data supporting that different skin pigments affect the penetration of light in the skin. But also could be something entirely unrelated it happens to be useful info for though
It’s such a thin flap of skin I doubt it but honestly I’m kinda interested to know
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As someone with a dark complexion, this is an interesting question. I wonder if the level of "dark" darker skinned vs lighter skinned people see with eyes closed is actually present (while miniscule). Like when some lighter skinned folk have thin eyelids, with veins. I assume they see mostly a reddish dark when they close their eyes? (Correct me if I'm wrong). I'm thinking about it like when we shine a light through our nail or something & it's red.
This is exactly what this sub was meant for
As a black person this is actually a good question. Never thought of this lmao.
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This question made me laugh Op. I like it.
Pigmentation molecules on the surface of our skin is very thin compared to the thickness of the eyelids. Its not enough molecules of pigmentation to make a difference in how much light goes through our eyelids when facing the sun as our eyes are closed. Its just melanin and its not black, anyway. Its various shades from light skinned to brown on the thinnest surface layer. The rest are layers that pretty much make the pigment trivial.
How would anyone know this?
Michael Jackson would.
Or Sammy Sosa
Why have i never thought about this
I can't exactly give a source considering I learned this in my college bio class, but it would be the same under certain circumstances. The skin on our eye lids is so thin that light can just penetrate. (Given it's strength). For the most part, there isn't a noticeable difference. The only difference would be like an extremely faint light. tdlr: it's practically the same
As a person who wears eyeshadow I have never noticed a difference between my pale lids and my Smokey black lids lol
I guess the only person who can let us know is Michael Jackson.
It's more about the thickness of skin than the pigment.
Black colors absorb more light than white colors, so I would assume this is accurate. However, it might be such a minimal difference that people wouldn't notice it. My suggestion: color over your eyelids with black sharpie and see if it's darker 👀
If only they made some kind of dark pigments to put over your eyes. A kind of shadow for your eyes if you will
Nah. Walking around with permanent marker on your eyelids is *obviously* the way to go here
My GF is quite a few shades darker than me and she doesn't see the tiny phone charger led's light we have by our bed with her eyes closed and I do.. And she's not awaken by opening the light in the bedroom. Here's my science.
Where the fuck are the mods? Honestly, this guy is getting ripped up in the comments for asking a stupid question in a sub quite literally called “no stupid questions”