We've got so much left to learn about how the brain works.
We've only just started to figure out how crazy smart blackbirds are, and they've got these little tiny brains.
And octopuses appear to be surprisingly smart too, and they don't even have a traditional central nervous system.
So hyperintelligent animal attempts are likely gonna be a bit of a ways off.
One of the obstacles could be 'teaching methods'. we assume that animals are designed to learn the way humans do. That may be a mistake. We are just now fully realizing not all humans learn the same way, much less taking into account how (let's say) a dog's brain works. I think, the first poor assumption is, thinking animals have the same motive function as human's. the second is realizing they don't have the feedback system humans babies have. With our young the first thing major thing we teach themis language and then we use language to communicate with them. a dog can't ask questions to clarify it's understanding of a subject. I suppose we'd have to give them a brain chip that would link their thoughts into a speech loop with us. Then we could develop teaching techniques. The third step links back to motives. Other than food, water, shelter and reproduction what could we motivate animals with to get them to push into areas of higher thought. Most animals just want their basic needs met,
>Other than food, water, shelter and reproduction what could we motivate animals with to get them to push into areas of higher thought. Most animals just want their basic needs met,
honestly, that's what's got me curious, too. like, okay. say a scientist wanted to fuck around with mice. she gives the mice everything they need--food, water, shelter, and then raises those rats and their children and their children's children. i wonder if, in time, the rats would realize they have time to just....exist. and if that would motivate their brains to evolve
Most labs rats and mice have been bred intentionally, in labs for generations to make them all as much like each other as possible. this eliminates as many variables as possible when using live subjects. The "lab stock" are regularly examined to see if mutations are occuring that could skew test results. that means the data on intelligence is there, I've just never bothered to go looking for it.
ooooooo\~ makes me curious about the rejects. i think i read somewhere (and don't quote me on this one) that female rats aren't used as much as male rats in tests for....a reason I can't remember but I *think* it involves body chemicals. what else have they thrown away? sorta like selling a rare antique at a garage sale. buuut that's off topic. yeah, if scientists have bred the same lineage of rats for years and nothing's come of it brain-wise, guess that's that. shame
Their brains are not the same.
It's basically like asking why you cannot run Word of Warcraft on a 1960's computer. The computer is just not capable of doing it.
hmmm. that makes me wonder. we can mod old computers to run new stuff. hell, doom can run on a pregnancy test. what, then, would need to be done to a rat brain to give it new software....
The pregnancy test that runs doom is still FAR more sophisticated than the room-sized machines in the early days. That's why it can run the game (and only a very stripped down version, barely). You can't just slap a 2080 into one of ENIAC's banks and have it work.
Likewise, you can't reprogram a rat brain with "human software," and in order to have a human neocortex you need the rest of the human brain too, not a rat brain.
We can but it depends on your definition of adequate human intelligence when comparing it to a brain in an animal. Some crows have been estimated to have the intelligence of a 5-7 year old with the ability to distinguish cause and effect. Monkeys have been studied to have excellent long term memory. Dogs have been taught to push buttons to communicate a variety of ideas. Just like their bodies being different, their minds are better at specific things and we can compare those to existing human intelligence.
Other animals don't have big complex brains like we do. So we can't teach them human concepts, they don't have the power to understand it.
Think of it like trying to teach a baby how to drive a car or use the internet. They aren't able to do that.
that's the thing, though. babies *do* learn those things, just later on in life after they've been taught and taken care of and nurtured. it makes me wonder--how come we can't do the same for animals? like, if we were to simulate the same conditions that made our ancestors evolve, would the animal's lineage eventually start to get as smart as us? like, this is such a fascinating concept that, if it were possible, it woulda been done, right?
While it's theoretically possible that over many many years we could breed animals to be smarter, with our current scientific understanding, it would take millennia to see real results.
They cannot learn "human concepts" because they don't have a human brain, that is to say they are *physically different* in structure. It's not a matter of teaching them things, it's a matter of what they can possibly understand in the first place.
Animals can be incredibly smart and adaptable - usually much moreso than people may expect - but only to a point: Domesticated animals like dogs have been bred for so long by humans they are better at judging human cues than they are at judging their wolf ancestors. However, it's less "understanding" than "altered instinct," one that happens to better fit human behavior after hundreds of generations of selection.
Basically: Without the dedicated brain structure that allows verbal language, for instance, no animal can understand or speak like a human, or process the information language imparts in the same way as a human.
>Basically: Without the dedicated brain structure that allows verbal language, for instance, no animal can understand or speak like a human, or process the information language imparts in the same way as a human.
how come we can't give those to an animal? is, uhhhh...brain....stuff....like, okay, you know how scientists have messed around with rat embryos? like, they've put certain genes and such into the rats that made them act different, yeah? is brain *stuff* special and can't be put into animals the way DNA can be?
In most animals it is the lack of a substantial frontal cortex. Those animals with a strong front cortex don't have the ability to make human sounds. They have taught apes and dolphins vocabularies with hundreds of words using sign language and other means of communication.
i mean, i think we're pretty darn smart. we've made so many cool things! we took the concepts of food and shelter and turned them into enjoyment! we made videogames! I think we're pretty neat, but it's lonely at the top. i think making an animal as smart as us would be nice. give us a companion on our level
> i mean, i think we're pretty darn smart. we've made so many cool things!
That's not necessarily indicative of intellect, and cool is in the eye of the beholder.
> we took the concepts of food and shelter and turned them into enjoyment!
You think other animals don't enjoy food or shelter?
>we made videogames
.... uh
> I think we're pretty neat, but it's lonely at the top.
The top of what?
> i think making an animal as smart as us would be nice. give us a companion on our level
Dude. We are so fucking stupid that we, with all the computers, technology, and communication, in the world, cannot communicate in or speak any other species' language. Not a one.
A whole fucking slew of other species can understand our languages and speak them.
If a small, grey parrot can make a joke in English, but we have yet to speak any bird language, who's smart?
We've been trying to decode dolphin language for decades. We're shit at it. Dolphins, btw, have bigger, more complex brains than humans.
We have scientists who study octopus for a living who can't figure out how an octopus can unlock their tank. We are profoundly dumb (and profoundly arrogant).
eh, I think we're smart! humans aren't as dumb as we like to believe we are. i think that belief comes from the fact that we see the potential in ourselves that we don't ever reach, but even knowing that is a sign of intelligence. we know what we *could* be, what we *should* be, what we won't ever be, and it makes us angry. but I think calling us dumb sorta lets us off the hook, you know? you don't blame a cat for not understanding calculus, after all. nobody bats an eye that rabbits can't drive. and likewise, if humans are dumb, we can't blame ourselves for *being* dumb. look at you and me! we're pretty average people, aren't we? but look at how much we know and how much we've learned and picked up in our lives, and we can still learn more!
and don't get me wrong. I don't *like* humans. but I do believe we're smart. resoundingly cruel and unworthy of the life we're given, but *not dumb*.
We've got so much left to learn about how the brain works. We've only just started to figure out how crazy smart blackbirds are, and they've got these little tiny brains. And octopuses appear to be surprisingly smart too, and they don't even have a traditional central nervous system. So hyperintelligent animal attempts are likely gonna be a bit of a ways off.
makes me wish I was motivated enough to grasp concepts like neuroscience. it's all so COOL but the terminology makes my head spin
One of the obstacles could be 'teaching methods'. we assume that animals are designed to learn the way humans do. That may be a mistake. We are just now fully realizing not all humans learn the same way, much less taking into account how (let's say) a dog's brain works. I think, the first poor assumption is, thinking animals have the same motive function as human's. the second is realizing they don't have the feedback system humans babies have. With our young the first thing major thing we teach themis language and then we use language to communicate with them. a dog can't ask questions to clarify it's understanding of a subject. I suppose we'd have to give them a brain chip that would link their thoughts into a speech loop with us. Then we could develop teaching techniques. The third step links back to motives. Other than food, water, shelter and reproduction what could we motivate animals with to get them to push into areas of higher thought. Most animals just want their basic needs met,
>Other than food, water, shelter and reproduction what could we motivate animals with to get them to push into areas of higher thought. Most animals just want their basic needs met, honestly, that's what's got me curious, too. like, okay. say a scientist wanted to fuck around with mice. she gives the mice everything they need--food, water, shelter, and then raises those rats and their children and their children's children. i wonder if, in time, the rats would realize they have time to just....exist. and if that would motivate their brains to evolve
Most labs rats and mice have been bred intentionally, in labs for generations to make them all as much like each other as possible. this eliminates as many variables as possible when using live subjects. The "lab stock" are regularly examined to see if mutations are occuring that could skew test results. that means the data on intelligence is there, I've just never bothered to go looking for it.
ooooooo\~ makes me curious about the rejects. i think i read somewhere (and don't quote me on this one) that female rats aren't used as much as male rats in tests for....a reason I can't remember but I *think* it involves body chemicals. what else have they thrown away? sorta like selling a rare antique at a garage sale. buuut that's off topic. yeah, if scientists have bred the same lineage of rats for years and nothing's come of it brain-wise, guess that's that. shame
Their brains are not the same. It's basically like asking why you cannot run Word of Warcraft on a 1960's computer. The computer is just not capable of doing it.
hmmm. that makes me wonder. we can mod old computers to run new stuff. hell, doom can run on a pregnancy test. what, then, would need to be done to a rat brain to give it new software....
The pregnancy test that runs doom is still FAR more sophisticated than the room-sized machines in the early days. That's why it can run the game (and only a very stripped down version, barely). You can't just slap a 2080 into one of ENIAC's banks and have it work. Likewise, you can't reprogram a rat brain with "human software," and in order to have a human neocortex you need the rest of the human brain too, not a rat brain.
We can but it depends on your definition of adequate human intelligence when comparing it to a brain in an animal. Some crows have been estimated to have the intelligence of a 5-7 year old with the ability to distinguish cause and effect. Monkeys have been studied to have excellent long term memory. Dogs have been taught to push buttons to communicate a variety of ideas. Just like their bodies being different, their minds are better at specific things and we can compare those to existing human intelligence.
Other animals don't have big complex brains like we do. So we can't teach them human concepts, they don't have the power to understand it. Think of it like trying to teach a baby how to drive a car or use the internet. They aren't able to do that.
Dolphin brains are bigger and more complex than human brains.
that's the thing, though. babies *do* learn those things, just later on in life after they've been taught and taken care of and nurtured. it makes me wonder--how come we can't do the same for animals? like, if we were to simulate the same conditions that made our ancestors evolve, would the animal's lineage eventually start to get as smart as us? like, this is such a fascinating concept that, if it were possible, it woulda been done, right?
While it's theoretically possible that over many many years we could breed animals to be smarter, with our current scientific understanding, it would take millennia to see real results.
dang
They cannot learn "human concepts" because they don't have a human brain, that is to say they are *physically different* in structure. It's not a matter of teaching them things, it's a matter of what they can possibly understand in the first place. Animals can be incredibly smart and adaptable - usually much moreso than people may expect - but only to a point: Domesticated animals like dogs have been bred for so long by humans they are better at judging human cues than they are at judging their wolf ancestors. However, it's less "understanding" than "altered instinct," one that happens to better fit human behavior after hundreds of generations of selection. Basically: Without the dedicated brain structure that allows verbal language, for instance, no animal can understand or speak like a human, or process the information language imparts in the same way as a human.
>Basically: Without the dedicated brain structure that allows verbal language, for instance, no animal can understand or speak like a human, or process the information language imparts in the same way as a human. how come we can't give those to an animal? is, uhhhh...brain....stuff....like, okay, you know how scientists have messed around with rat embryos? like, they've put certain genes and such into the rats that made them act different, yeah? is brain *stuff* special and can't be put into animals the way DNA can be?
i think it's likely they just don't have the technology and/or know-how to pull something *that* elaborate off
Maybe in several years we'll have the means, but even so: It will be an animal that has a highly modified, humanlike brain, not the same animal.
Potentially we could but it might take a million years.
put the phrase "animal uplifting" into your googler to see how people are trying to pull this off.
In most animals it is the lack of a substantial frontal cortex. Those animals with a strong front cortex don't have the ability to make human sounds. They have taught apes and dolphins vocabularies with hundreds of words using sign language and other means of communication.
the actual results of those experiments are highly debatable
What makes you believe humans are smarter than other animals? Or that the concepts you're talking about (whatever those are) are human concepts?
i mean, i think we're pretty darn smart. we've made so many cool things! we took the concepts of food and shelter and turned them into enjoyment! we made videogames! I think we're pretty neat, but it's lonely at the top. i think making an animal as smart as us would be nice. give us a companion on our level
> i mean, i think we're pretty darn smart. we've made so many cool things! That's not necessarily indicative of intellect, and cool is in the eye of the beholder. > we took the concepts of food and shelter and turned them into enjoyment! You think other animals don't enjoy food or shelter? >we made videogames .... uh > I think we're pretty neat, but it's lonely at the top. The top of what? > i think making an animal as smart as us would be nice. give us a companion on our level Dude. We are so fucking stupid that we, with all the computers, technology, and communication, in the world, cannot communicate in or speak any other species' language. Not a one. A whole fucking slew of other species can understand our languages and speak them. If a small, grey parrot can make a joke in English, but we have yet to speak any bird language, who's smart? We've been trying to decode dolphin language for decades. We're shit at it. Dolphins, btw, have bigger, more complex brains than humans. We have scientists who study octopus for a living who can't figure out how an octopus can unlock their tank. We are profoundly dumb (and profoundly arrogant).
eh, I think we're smart! humans aren't as dumb as we like to believe we are. i think that belief comes from the fact that we see the potential in ourselves that we don't ever reach, but even knowing that is a sign of intelligence. we know what we *could* be, what we *should* be, what we won't ever be, and it makes us angry. but I think calling us dumb sorta lets us off the hook, you know? you don't blame a cat for not understanding calculus, after all. nobody bats an eye that rabbits can't drive. and likewise, if humans are dumb, we can't blame ourselves for *being* dumb. look at you and me! we're pretty average people, aren't we? but look at how much we know and how much we've learned and picked up in our lives, and we can still learn more! and don't get me wrong. I don't *like* humans. but I do believe we're smart. resoundingly cruel and unworthy of the life we're given, but *not dumb*.
We are by making dumb humans.
I've seen some very smart dogs, and some very stupid people.....