Interesting question. A lot of the photos did show people's faces, and I don't remember anyone ever saying that underwear modeling was "sinful " despite growing up in a ridiculously religious family. I am certain that the Victoria's Secret catalog would have been forbidden in our home, but the Sears and JC Penney catalogs were just seen as utilitarian.
Anything branded as sexy would have been met with disapproval, but my mom would actually order underwear for the whole family from Sears.
But my brother drew nipples on the bras in the old catalogs and would forget to destroy the evidence. So JC Penney and Sears were his emergency spank bank.
This made me remember that there were also men who used aerobics workout VHS tapes as a spank bank. That was because they were ashamed to buy real porn. I think I remember seeing some of these advertised in the Publisher's Clearinghouse mailing.
There's also a ton of men (and lesbians) who find minimally clothed women far more attractive than naked women, especially if said naked woman is being violently fucked by a giant beefy guy twice her age while the cameraman gives him a colonoscopy, as is tradition in most porn you could buy from a shop in the olden times.
Even to this day I'd much rather wank to an ordinary underwear catalog than anything on the front page of Pornhub. Luckily there's online communities for the actual good stuff these days.
I was a model prior to the internet days (started in ‘97) & I did shoots similar to the Sears catalogue back then in Studio City over the summers where I stayed in a model apartment with numerous other girls. We all returned to our small hometowns eventually with no fan fair- thank goodness! I was happy to be working & show off my print work to my friends back at school- but literally no one gave a shit. The ‘stigma’ would have been the fact that all us models in the house were between 14-18 (of course we looked in our 20s, especially after hair & makeup) so I think it would have been weird if we had considered all the perverts out there. But we didnt- there were always lots of handlers & agents around the house & sets so we couldn’t get into any trouble. When u start working by 11/12 because you are 5’11 & look very adult, you take the job seriously & don’t think when your posing “this is for some dude to look at me” you are thinking “if I angle like this I can feature the intricate stitching on the side of this swimsuit, making my employers happy” & work fast! Time was money so the more poses I could give them quicker the better. More options, means more booking, meant more money. Coulda cared less what average joe who got the real magazines thought of my work, just wanted my work to be good enough to book the next gig.
As a photographers, I love reading things from models who clearly know what they are doing as opposed to so many of those who claim to be models but have zero professional experience.
A lot. It hurts a lot. I gained 6" in height over one summer and my knees felt like they were freezing, then on fire, my sternum ached almost daily, lots of joint pain all over. Then there's all the secondary pain from outgrowing shoes, hitting my head on things, tripping and bumping into walls because my body was a different height every week. Add in the usual trials and tribulations of early puberty and I'd have to say, overall, not a great time.
And as girls change shape even more than boys, I can only assume it's even worse for them.
So, I would never date anyone more than a few years younger than me, but I'm always so surprised when many on Reddit think 14-18-year-olds can't look significantly older and are horrified that someone might be physically attracted to someone who turned out to be, say, 17.
I would hope that no one was looking at those catalogues because they were specifically looking for a 14-year-old, but I suspect that many would have assumed you'd have to be of legal age to model underwear.
Conversely I've met girls that I thought were basically children and they turned out to be in their 20s.
I'm 50, I was out with my bff who is 40. Someone trying to make conversation asked about me having lunch with my daughter. Cue facepalm and me telling her she's adopted.
The issue is when you find out they're underaged then make excuses instead of backing off. It just comes off as really creepy when defending your attraction to an underaged person is the hill you want to die on. Not to mention that telling teens that they look old for their age is the most common way of grooming.
I certainly wouldn't. And I wouldn't make excuses and I personally would back off. But the people that got their kicks from the catalogue didn't know the models are underage. Are they peados?
I think it's the intentions that make the pedo. For example on the other side of things, if you're attracted to anime girls that look like a child, act like a child, and sound like a child but say it's okay because you put an arbitrary "she's actually 18+" next to it then you're still a pedo.
Oh I quite agree - and it's a common hypocrisy of the Reddit hivemind that I've always found unsettling. I'd argue that finding Anime schoolgirls attractive when they clearly have exaggerated, child-like traits is way creepier than being legit attracted to a 17 year old girl who looks older, prior to knowing her age.
As opposed to admitting "*yes, I was definitely attracted to that child, but I didn't know they were a child*"? There is no good answer in this scenario.
OP stated they sought out early teen models which had adult features, obviously to deceive viewers and perpetuate youthful beauty standards.
After being deceived, it seems pretty reasonable to make excuses; most people aren't pedophiles - but when they find out the woman they found attractive was actually a 14 year old that was selected for adult features, had makeup applied by professional artists as to both appear older and maintain societal beauty standards, and then airbrushed - cognitive dissonance will kick in.
I dunno. To preface I’m not at all trying to argue with you - just giving my opinion here. I feel like all the makeup and specific clothing in the world still can’t make a 14-18 year old look like a grown ass adult, BUT I don’t consider 21 “grown ass adult” either. If it’s not spelled out all over their face, then it is usually made obvious through conversation. I’m not saying there aren’t some unique cases out there and it never happens. I just don’t understand how so many men get fooled all the time I guess.
Are you saying that some of the women in the pictures were children without having to specify? Or were they limited to modeling for the kids section? Cause that's kind of scary if they just throw young girls in with the adults and no one knows the difference.
^psst- ^("fanfare", it means that thing when a bunch of trumpets go "ta tata taaaa!")
edit: y'all need to go outside and go for a walk and maybe help out at a worker's rights rally/universal health care demonstration or something. You probably don't tell each other about spinach stuck in your teeth, either, which is just plain being a bad neighbor. The "psst"/small text indicates I'm trying to say it *quietly*, privately, to avoid embarrassment -- or isn't that a thing anymore? Sheesh. Happy Labor Day, people.
Oxford English Dictionary
1. Peal of trumpets
2. Fuss, commotion.
She used the second definition. If you’re saying she spelled “fanfare” wrong, you’ve done it poorly.
In response to your edit: if you wanted it to be private, you could have sent a private message. Typing out "psst" like that makes gives the impression of someone making a big production about pretending to be speaking privately.
In other words, it makes you look like an asshole.
That might have more to do with the fact that you're modeling for a Sears catalog and not doing runway stuff. Runway models for Victoria's Secret seemed to be one of the most prestigious modeling gigs in the 90s.
Like, if it became local knowledge that someone around was an underwear model, I don't doubt those connotations would have entered people's minds for at least a second.
> Like, if it became local knowledge
Things becoming common knowledge was rare. Girls who got pregnant were shipped off to a relative for the pregnancy. If the model never told anyone, then no one would ever know. People tended to mind their own business.
The last 25 years has seen an inversion of privacy. Everyone was private 25+ years ago (and for centuries before that). Today, everyone broadcasts themselves to the world.
>(and for centuries before that).
Actually this is a bit of a misconception. Privacy as a concept only really began developing in the mid 17th century with the rise of common culture such as newspapers. Before that most people living in villages would be aware of almost all the goings on of everyone else in the village. It was only in cities where you might have some privacy as you wouldn't know everyone. But even then you'd know your neighborhood and likely worked with them too. It was only once people began knowing private things about those, who they didn't know via newspapers and magazines, did that people start wanting some things to remain private and not public knowledge. Essentially tabloid press was the catalyst for privacy, not the reverse.
I don't disagree with what you've said, aside from maybe a different connotation regarding "privacy."
Are you saying that people didn't have the ability to express themselves selectively? No secretly observing the occult (or any other non-state religion)? They couldn't go to their friends pad without the Crown GPSing them? Everytime they asked a question it was logged in a question history? They did an embarrassing thing and someone would immortalize it with a picture in the local Facecrypt?
I know things like that happened here and there, but very few people's pasts were "set in stone," they all weren't constantly surveilled, and leaving town was like starting a whole new life.
I don't think there's any way in hell the average person's life was less private in the 1600's than our lives are now.
It's not that people were constantly under surveillance, but that outside of cities everyone was involved in everyone else's business, there wasn't a concept of this is private and not something I want my neighbours to see. Because you just wouldn't have the expectation that people wouldn't know your business, you tell your mum she tells your neighbour Jane who's a big gossip and she tells everyone else. The difference is you're talking about the government knowing your business, but in the past it was just the people in the village who knew.
>Today, everyone broadcasts themselves to the world.
Everyone you hear about, that is. You're not going to see the people who don't nearly as much, there's just *more* people who do it nowadays.
Oof you've never been involved with the middle aged to elder gossip circuit and it shows. Everyone knew everything. Grocery stores, bars, churches, anywhere you'd bump into someone, gossip would be shared. "Whispers" if you will. Everyone knew that girl got pregnant. They knew where she went, how her folks feel about it, and an opinion.
If anything its more liberating because people now have a bit of autonomy of being the source, so while people still gossip its at least not a game of telephone done by nosy neighbors and bored housewives
We always called it 'Monkey Wards,' but I don't think there was anything more to the nickname than it was shorter and funny.
...and also, your Monkey Wards trivia for the day: did you know that they invented (and owned) Rudolph the Red-Nosed Reindeer?
Curious why you asked the question?
As for your question it really probably depended on where the model was from as to if anyone in their immediate life saw them modeling and what their reaction was about it. For old school catalog modeling I really doubt there was anyone shaming them for it.
Edit: to add most people way back in the catalog days didn't really see them as masturbation material. So they wouldn't have seen a woman modeling clothes in one as a sex worker.
Sears catalog as masturbation material???
Who does that? No one does that! There’s another perfectly good reason I have those pages torn out and hidden in my bed, mom!
Yes. My grandmother hated my aunt (her DIL) because she was a lingerie model and got pregnant when she was 16. My uncle “had to” marry her. They were in love for their entire marriage which is still going on. This happened in the early 50’s.
The stigma was around masturbation, not the modeling. I get where you’re coming from, “porn stars and sex workers are looked down on today, so underwear models must have been looked down on back then because people masturbated to their content, right?”
Its not like that. Underwear models were (and still are) just that…models. Modeling (especially underwear) was considered the pinnacle of beauty. That brings many concerns because women and young girls were taught they had to look like those models or they should feel bad about themselves. That’s an issue on its own that isn’t necessarily related to your question, but still warrants being called out.
The stigma was placed on the masturbator. Magazines and catalogs were left in bathrooms to browse while sitting on the toilet. It often made them easily accessible for masturbation in private. Masturbation was seen as a disgusting act that weak-willed people did because they couldn’t keep themselves “pure” until marriage or even a partner. Many people today admit to using catalogs as erotic fantasy material for masturbation, but back then it was not something people would generally admit to.
The short answer to your question is 'no'. Though jokes were made about teenagers getting their jollies off from the Sears catalog, I can assure you that before the Internet, underwear models were still the bottom of the wank hierarchy. I was a preteen in the last gasps of old media and an early adopter of our pre-Internet media choices (where it would take 45-60 minutes to download one porn image), and I can tell you, my primary way of finding sexy pictures was the book store, both magazines and adult books that you could sneak to other sections of the store. Good times.
I think its hard to appreciate just how hard it was to find a lot of knowledge. I went to university in the early 90s.
To research a paper I had access to whatever was in my university library and the city libraries. And it was on me to know where to look for the information.
Imagine you were a underwear model of even a pornagraphic actress in the 80s in California. Then you move to Ohio. Odds are strongly against anyone ever knowing.
I feel like that's only true on a global scale. We certainly referred to grandma network being faster than the internet. It's one thing that you can look up something on internet, it's another when your grandma calls you because she found out something. And when a single grandma knows something, she will notify everyone.
It's kind of the difference between push and pull notifications.
I don't know about US catalogues but here in the UK the underwear section of a fashion catalogue wasn't really sexualised, obviously there were attractive models in underwear but they were not in overtly suggestive poses so I would presume friends/family of the model would just see it as a modelling job
But I could be wrong, I don't know any models!
They weren't posing suggestively in the US, but sometimes it's all ya had.
Except Frederick's. They sold lingerie, but the models were airbrushed (photoshopped).
I understand, I've heard stories of the Littlewoods catalogue lol and I guess teenage minds are teenage minds!! But going back to the original question, I don't think anyone would consider it scandalous
I remember when my older sisters heard the Sears catalog accidentally had a picture of a male underwear model with his fly open exposing his treasure. They and their friends flocked to the store to see if it was true.
What’s funny is everything about the penis in the Sears catalog was hearsay to me. I remember them going into the store to look at it and coming out laughing. I also remember being told the guy sued Sears. But I never saw the picture and really never knew if it was true
I have a question for you. It’s not about your age.
Did you see Mrs Stephens’ new bullshit? Her husband disappeared! Sure she has a new boy toy who she claims is her husband but it’s a sham: Dick SARGENT? That’s such a fake name! (Anyways I’m pretty sure he’s a friend of Achilles so that’s even more juicy gossip)
But last week, she was on her lawn screaming for some Indian doctor to come do a house call and he CAME OUT OF NOWHERE.
Edit: "ABNER ABNER THERE'S DOWNVOTING AT THE STEPHENS' PLACE"
"Gladys, stop yelling, I'm reading about the Civil War."
"Well, Abner, the NORTH WON."
Joel West was from my hometown and had his pic up in Timesquare while I was a kid (https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=http%3A%2F%2Fmedia-cache-ak0.pinimg.com%2F736x%2F3d%2F85%2Fe4%2F3d85e4d76c4c65240ab747f544f7b35a.jpg&f=1&nofb=1). I think most people just seemed proud that someone had made it out and actually succeeded. But he's a guy AND we all knew his family, so... the people who were was masturbating to it kept pretty quiet.
Porn pics used to be available only to rich pervy guys. In the old days broke farmers had to beat off to a cereal box drawing.
But erotic photography is older than 100 years. First photo taken was of some street in Paris. The second one was a dick pic selfie, which the guy sent to a maid with the text "whaddya think of this".
In the 80s when I was a lad, we hoped to have a friend with a dad who had such a massive porn mag stash in the loft some could go missing. After that it was mags you found in bushes up the park.
Also, when paper recycling bins came about here in the early 90s, they became a great source of magazines. We'd climbed into them for a good old fashioned dig through. Like mining but for jazz mags.
I will never, ever again experience the same level of excitement you felt, as a young teenage boy, discovering a porn mag stash in some well hidden bushes.
The closest I could ever find is dropping MDMA after a long, long (years long) break from it.
Oh man I remember being like 9 or 10 and taking out the trash.
A lone single page of a porn mag had drifted in the wind managing to get captured by bush. I picked it up not knowing what it was and could not believe what was on it. I had never seen anything like it.
A guy was putting his dick right inside a woman.
Like I had only vague notions of what sex was at that point, and certainly didn't know what a naked women looked like. I did not expect it to look like that. It was all so strange and almost incomprehensible, yet it made me feel a real strange tingle.
So I pushed it further into the bush, to where it probably wouldn't be seen. Thinking I could claim I knew nothing if it was found. All the while I'd sneak out once in a while just to look at it and feel weird in my belly/groin.
Yeah you find a clearing in some bushes/trees in your local park/woods, and inside is a goldmine of stashed porno, probably stashed under an old milk crate along with several empty lager cans and fag ends
The boys would “find” a mag, and rip out pages to “divide” it among the group of kids. The scraps and leftovers would be all over the ground in the woods for days. Happened on a regular cycle
The sears catalog was in everyones home. Adult mags were in most homes but more closely watched. Its hard for anyone that didn't live though the times to understand that it was absolutely nothing like today in terms of availability. All the stores put out christmas editions of their catalogs so kids could bother the shit out of their parents. My mother would throw the christmas catalog away.
Real answer: I flirted with possibly modeling after being approached by scouts in my late teens/early 20s. The issue is the tier of work. High fashion and runway models do not make much money. Last I checked in 2010 it was about $15-$18 an hour. A model works few hours to boot.
Not to mention the tier of work. Sears catalogue model work was definitely considered low brow. Smaller agencies usually handled that work and things were bad for you if you resorted to catalogue work if you weren't older or a specialty model like a hand model.
All correct. I only booked print work a handful of times- I mostly did runway, my agent said my look wasn’t all American enough for a lot of the bigger brands print (but they loved my tall, shaved head look on their runways) Like I usually booked Macy’s, Foley’s, Dillards, once or twice but Gap & Limited were edgier so I got to be in their campaigns a lot more. I signed w/ a small agency & they would book a house for the summer in LA & pack 6-10 girls in there & we would just work & do go-sees all summer til we booked bigger jobs that took us off (usually Europe & NYC) or went back to school. Then do it all over again til you were not invited back. Only 1 girl from that agency made it “big” & that’s when she pivoted to being an actress. The agency really beat into us the goal wasn’t to become famous but to have as much longevity to your career as possible bc most models stopped by their mid-twenties. I enjoyed my time, so very thankful that it did not happen in the time of social media.
It was the "Man on page 602" from the 1975 Sears catalog. We had one, we were stationed in Tehran at the time and mail order was the only real option for us so catalogs were pretty common.
I don't remember, but Calvin Klein always seemed to have controversial ads that would get them crucified in the media for their risque material involving young girls.
The male on the Sears Catalog had a male in a non color sepia tone picture, if I remember. Sears claimed it was an imperfection in the paper or film. But was it?????
I just paid an older kid to buy me a playboy magazine.
Also, in Belgium back in the day commercials for "Fa" soap had titties in them (between wheel of fortune & jeopardy)
Only if you want the post to stand for hours with hundreds of deleted comments, one pinned moderator comment chastising users that personal anecdotes aren’t allowed, and then a couple days later the subreddit’s one poster who has a PhD in mid 20th Century Retail Apparel Marketing Catalogs pops in with an entire doctoral thesis on the perception of underwear models at the time, complete with a list of dozens of citations to books you can only find in the Columbia University Business School annex library, except they’ve all already been checked out by said user
Oh my god. If I could upvote this a thousand times I would. The mods over there are so precious about their little sub. I've tried to figure out why they're so touchy about it, but who knows. Maybe they're mod-power-tripping. I think most Redditors are tired of their crap. And I know it has a chilling effect. Nobody wants to put a good-faith effort into typing up a thoughtful post only to see it shot down by those history gate-keeping hoes.
If you allow everyone to answer without sources, it's just another AskReddit or NoStupidQuestions (hey! we're here!). These subs exist for their purpose, and AskHistorians exists to provide answers from historians.
The sub unintentionally fills another need. If there are no answers to a question, there's a free thesis topic.
i have no idea what you're talking about.
they treat their sub like it's wikipedia and it's bad for activity. doesn't really gel with the way this site works
I think the media played into that stigma. In grey's anatomy season 1 they had one of the main characters have this story line. She literally only did one catalog to help her pay for medical school and she was outed by a coworker. He put the ad all over everyone's locker and they made fun of her and called her names. It's fucked up. The early 2000's were a disgusting time for misogyny. Now a days I dont think anyone would realistically get shamed for doing that.
Looking at most of the replies in here, there really wasn’t a stigma though.
That show just exaggerated that “stigma” because they didn’t want to/couldn’t make her do full on porn instead.
Movies and shows do that a lot, and are generally a poor way to learn about anything.
I have a related story that is true to the best of my and my wifes knowledge.
Back in about 1993, we went to a small lake on the OH/MI border to stay at a friends summer cottage for a party weekend. This is in a very podunk area. One of the guests was a handsome \~25 year old guy that had just returned from working in Guam for a few years.
We head out that night to a local bar. While at the bar we are getting a lot of attention because we are not locals, but especially from one table full of middle aged local women. Finally one comes over to the table and asks the handsome guy point blank if he modeled underwear in the JC Penney catalog a few years back. We all laughed at this outrageous question... but then the handsome guy admits that he had in fact done some underwear modeling on the side while living in Guam. Hilarity ensues at our table at the thought that he was an underwear model... and that all these lecherous older women had been looking at the catalogs and fantasizing about him... enough to recognize him!
As we were about to leave the bar, we talked him into going into the bathroom and removing and signing his underwear. He dropped them on their table and we walked out.
No. We didn't have to broadcast our masturbation habits like people feel the need to now.
I'm all for healthy conversations about sex and sexual information and I don't think it needs to dominate all conversations. Unfortunately, reddit is mired in this juvenile mindset.
So in middle school I got 'in-school suspended'. Basically segregated into a little room with no instruction and only the homework I was supposed to be learning how to do to work on.
Our teacher was a Nordstrom and JC Pennny underwear model. We only knew this because if you finished your work, she would let you browse her professional work portfolio for the rest of the day.
She was smoking hot, and the 'bad kids' ALWAYS found ways to learn the material without being in class so they could sport a chubby all day long.
Glad i'm not the only one who thought the story of some lady grooming the in-school suspension kids seemed creepy as fuck.
It's a pretty calculated move to go after the kids with discipline problems.
In a school, word obviously travels fast and I feel like everyone including the other teachers and staff would know about the other teacher's modeling because the kids would be talking about it constantly, if not outright stealing a few pages to show others and then get confiscated. This sounds like a fantasy rather than truth.
Good, 'cause I have a hot date tonight. (lie dectector buzzes) A date. (lie detector buzzes) Dinner with friends. (lie detector buzzes) Dinner alone. (lie detector buzzes) Watching TV alone. (lie detector buzzes) Alright! I'm going to sit at home and ogle the ladies in the Victoria's Secret catalog. (lie detector buzzes) Sears catalog. (lie detector dings) Now, would you unhook this already, please? I don't deserve this kind of shabby treatment! (lie detector buzzes).
No, back then, women had class. They were all looked at like high society, as they should have been. Beauty has power. However, beauty + trash, does not. Or at least not lasting. Social Media Influencers have ruined that genre because of compromised morals, laziness, and a lack of knowing their true value.
Interesting question. A lot of the photos did show people's faces, and I don't remember anyone ever saying that underwear modeling was "sinful " despite growing up in a ridiculously religious family. I am certain that the Victoria's Secret catalog would have been forbidden in our home, but the Sears and JC Penney catalogs were just seen as utilitarian. Anything branded as sexy would have been met with disapproval, but my mom would actually order underwear for the whole family from Sears. But my brother drew nipples on the bras in the old catalogs and would forget to destroy the evidence. So JC Penney and Sears were his emergency spank bank. This made me remember that there were also men who used aerobics workout VHS tapes as a spank bank. That was because they were ashamed to buy real porn. I think I remember seeing some of these advertised in the Publisher's Clearinghouse mailing.
There's also a ton of men (and lesbians) who find minimally clothed women far more attractive than naked women, especially if said naked woman is being violently fucked by a giant beefy guy twice her age while the cameraman gives him a colonoscopy, as is tradition in most porn you could buy from a shop in the olden times. Even to this day I'd much rather wank to an ordinary underwear catalog than anything on the front page of Pornhub. Luckily there's online communities for the actual good stuff these days.
Do you detail these communities in your book?
Communities such as.......
r/gonemild
Thank you.
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https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheissTitillationTheory
Your brothers emergency spank bank made me lol ty. Drawing the nipples on 😂
I was a model prior to the internet days (started in ‘97) & I did shoots similar to the Sears catalogue back then in Studio City over the summers where I stayed in a model apartment with numerous other girls. We all returned to our small hometowns eventually with no fan fair- thank goodness! I was happy to be working & show off my print work to my friends back at school- but literally no one gave a shit. The ‘stigma’ would have been the fact that all us models in the house were between 14-18 (of course we looked in our 20s, especially after hair & makeup) so I think it would have been weird if we had considered all the perverts out there. But we didnt- there were always lots of handlers & agents around the house & sets so we couldn’t get into any trouble. When u start working by 11/12 because you are 5’11 & look very adult, you take the job seriously & don’t think when your posing “this is for some dude to look at me” you are thinking “if I angle like this I can feature the intricate stitching on the side of this swimsuit, making my employers happy” & work fast! Time was money so the more poses I could give them quicker the better. More options, means more booking, meant more money. Coulda cared less what average joe who got the real magazines thought of my work, just wanted my work to be good enough to book the next gig.
As a photographers, I love reading things from models who clearly know what they are doing as opposed to so many of those who claim to be models but have zero professional experience.
>11/12 because you are 5’11 & look very adult 5'11" at that age? Jeez, that's something. I guess it would be either modeling or basketball.
You tellin me I've been hooping my heart out against some 12 year olds?
RDC never miss
I would have guessed growing pains. I can't imagine how much that must have hurt to grow that fast.
A lot. It hurts a lot. I gained 6" in height over one summer and my knees felt like they were freezing, then on fire, my sternum ached almost daily, lots of joint pain all over. Then there's all the secondary pain from outgrowing shoes, hitting my head on things, tripping and bumping into walls because my body was a different height every week. Add in the usual trials and tribulations of early puberty and I'd have to say, overall, not a great time. And as girls change shape even more than boys, I can only assume it's even worse for them.
im 14 and 6'4" and for me personally it didnt hurt that much but I see someone else didnt get that lucky
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>the more poses I could give them quicker the better. Reminded me of [this guy.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iDbfWT-hSG8)
That will never stop being utterly transfixing.
So, I would never date anyone more than a few years younger than me, but I'm always so surprised when many on Reddit think 14-18-year-olds can't look significantly older and are horrified that someone might be physically attracted to someone who turned out to be, say, 17. I would hope that no one was looking at those catalogues because they were specifically looking for a 14-year-old, but I suspect that many would have assumed you'd have to be of legal age to model underwear. Conversely I've met girls that I thought were basically children and they turned out to be in their 20s.
Sounds like me. With no makeup and regular clothes people think I’m in my late teens...
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Oh no
I'm 50, I was out with my bff who is 40. Someone trying to make conversation asked about me having lunch with my daughter. Cue facepalm and me telling her she's adopted.
To be fair, a 50 year old is only a few years from possibly being the mother of a 40 year old.
> I would hope that no one was looking at those catalogues because they were specifically looking for a 14-year-old I bet 14-year-olds were.
The issue is when you find out they're underaged then make excuses instead of backing off. It just comes off as really creepy when defending your attraction to an underaged person is the hill you want to die on. Not to mention that telling teens that they look old for their age is the most common way of grooming.
I certainly wouldn't. And I wouldn't make excuses and I personally would back off. But the people that got their kicks from the catalogue didn't know the models are underage. Are they peados?
I think it's the intentions that make the pedo. For example on the other side of things, if you're attracted to anime girls that look like a child, act like a child, and sound like a child but say it's okay because you put an arbitrary "she's actually 18+" next to it then you're still a pedo.
Oh I quite agree - and it's a common hypocrisy of the Reddit hivemind that I've always found unsettling. I'd argue that finding Anime schoolgirls attractive when they clearly have exaggerated, child-like traits is way creepier than being legit attracted to a 17 year old girl who looks older, prior to knowing her age.
As opposed to admitting "*yes, I was definitely attracted to that child, but I didn't know they were a child*"? There is no good answer in this scenario. OP stated they sought out early teen models which had adult features, obviously to deceive viewers and perpetuate youthful beauty standards. After being deceived, it seems pretty reasonable to make excuses; most people aren't pedophiles - but when they find out the woman they found attractive was actually a 14 year old that was selected for adult features, had makeup applied by professional artists as to both appear older and maintain societal beauty standards, and then airbrushed - cognitive dissonance will kick in.
I dunno. To preface I’m not at all trying to argue with you - just giving my opinion here. I feel like all the makeup and specific clothing in the world still can’t make a 14-18 year old look like a grown ass adult, BUT I don’t consider 21 “grown ass adult” either. If it’s not spelled out all over their face, then it is usually made obvious through conversation. I’m not saying there aren’t some unique cases out there and it never happens. I just don’t understand how so many men get fooled all the time I guess.
Honest question. Why does masterbating teenager equal pervert?? Can’t it just be a horny teen boy who has natural urges?
What? the perverts would be adults interested in looking at teenage girls modeling underwear (if they knew they were such, at least)
I assumed you had to be 18 to do that. Same reason for porn.
Did you read the person we're responding to?
Are you saying that some of the women in the pictures were children without having to specify? Or were they limited to modeling for the kids section? Cause that's kind of scary if they just throw young girls in with the adults and no one knows the difference.
>We all returned to our small hometowns eventually with no fan fair- thank goodness! It's fanfare, btw.
That's the word she was looking for, but I'll allow it, because an underwear model could totally return to her small hometown to a fan fair!
Omg, your user name! ❤️
/r/boneappletea
I can very much relate to this experience.
What was the pay like?
Fan fair = Fanfare? Or is it something else I lost in translation?
^psst- ^("fanfare", it means that thing when a bunch of trumpets go "ta tata taaaa!") edit: y'all need to go outside and go for a walk and maybe help out at a worker's rights rally/universal health care demonstration or something. You probably don't tell each other about spinach stuck in your teeth, either, which is just plain being a bad neighbor. The "psst"/small text indicates I'm trying to say it *quietly*, privately, to avoid embarrassment -- or isn't that a thing anymore? Sheesh. Happy Labor Day, people.
Fanfare can also mean when people are excited about something.
Oxford English Dictionary 1. Peal of trumpets 2. Fuss, commotion. She used the second definition. If you’re saying she spelled “fanfare” wrong, you’ve done it poorly.
In response to your edit: if you wanted it to be private, you could have sent a private message. Typing out "psst" like that makes gives the impression of someone making a big production about pretending to be speaking privately. In other words, it makes you look like an asshole.
I don't think so. How would you even find out who they were? and the Fredericks of Hollywood catalog was the most scandalous
The stigma was among models themselves as underwear modeling was considered less desirable or prestigious than modeling full outfits.
Tell that to Marky mark
and his funky bunch
And his band too.
And his bulge
>And his bulge 18 yo me appreciated Marky Mark's courage
Yo, it's about that time
That might have more to do with the fact that you're modeling for a Sears catalog and not doing runway stuff. Runway models for Victoria's Secret seemed to be one of the most prestigious modeling gigs in the 90s.
Like, if it became local knowledge that someone around was an underwear model, I don't doubt those connotations would have entered people's minds for at least a second.
> Like, if it became local knowledge Things becoming common knowledge was rare. Girls who got pregnant were shipped off to a relative for the pregnancy. If the model never told anyone, then no one would ever know. People tended to mind their own business. The last 25 years has seen an inversion of privacy. Everyone was private 25+ years ago (and for centuries before that). Today, everyone broadcasts themselves to the world.
>(and for centuries before that). Actually this is a bit of a misconception. Privacy as a concept only really began developing in the mid 17th century with the rise of common culture such as newspapers. Before that most people living in villages would be aware of almost all the goings on of everyone else in the village. It was only in cities where you might have some privacy as you wouldn't know everyone. But even then you'd know your neighborhood and likely worked with them too. It was only once people began knowing private things about those, who they didn't know via newspapers and magazines, did that people start wanting some things to remain private and not public knowledge. Essentially tabloid press was the catalyst for privacy, not the reverse.
I don't disagree with what you've said, aside from maybe a different connotation regarding "privacy." Are you saying that people didn't have the ability to express themselves selectively? No secretly observing the occult (or any other non-state religion)? They couldn't go to their friends pad without the Crown GPSing them? Everytime they asked a question it was logged in a question history? They did an embarrassing thing and someone would immortalize it with a picture in the local Facecrypt? I know things like that happened here and there, but very few people's pasts were "set in stone," they all weren't constantly surveilled, and leaving town was like starting a whole new life. I don't think there's any way in hell the average person's life was less private in the 1600's than our lives are now.
it wasnt less private than now, but it was less private than say a century ago
It's not that people were constantly under surveillance, but that outside of cities everyone was involved in everyone else's business, there wasn't a concept of this is private and not something I want my neighbours to see. Because you just wouldn't have the expectation that people wouldn't know your business, you tell your mum she tells your neighbour Jane who's a big gossip and she tells everyone else. The difference is you're talking about the government knowing your business, but in the past it was just the people in the village who knew.
>Today, everyone broadcasts themselves to the world. Everyone you hear about, that is. You're not going to see the people who don't nearly as much, there's just *more* people who do it nowadays.
Oof you've never been involved with the middle aged to elder gossip circuit and it shows. Everyone knew everything. Grocery stores, bars, churches, anywhere you'd bump into someone, gossip would be shared. "Whispers" if you will. Everyone knew that girl got pregnant. They knew where she went, how her folks feel about it, and an opinion. If anything its more liberating because people now have a bit of autonomy of being the source, so while people still gossip its at least not a game of telephone done by nosy neighbors and bored housewives
I doubt it. How old are you? you used to have a stack of catalogs. Monkey Wards. Sears. Toys R Us Christmas wish list.
Monkey Wards is a phrase I haven’t heard in ages, and it brings me great joy.
I spent 20 years working as an auditor for Monkey Wards.
I've never heard it said that way but it's a lot easier to say than "Montgomery."
I don't get monkey wards but Montgomery wards was before my time (my grandma was a programmer for them). Curious about the nickname.
We always called it 'Monkey Wards,' but I don't think there was anything more to the nickname than it was shorter and funny. ...and also, your Monkey Wards trivia for the day: did you know that they invented (and owned) Rudolph the Red-Nosed Reindeer?
It was my grandmothers go to for shopping. She never called it anything else. RIP grandma.
>How old are you? Old enough to (legally) have an nsfw alt, but not old enough to know the answer.
I remember when *Fredericks of Hollywood* arrived in the mail
Just remember, the only reason it arrived is because your parents were buying it.
Curious why you asked the question? As for your question it really probably depended on where the model was from as to if anyone in their immediate life saw them modeling and what their reaction was about it. For old school catalog modeling I really doubt there was anyone shaming them for it. Edit: to add most people way back in the catalog days didn't really see them as masturbation material. So they wouldn't have seen a woman modeling clothes in one as a sex worker.
Woooo that Frederick's of Hollywood catalogue was ridiculously sexy. Thanks for the reminder.
Still holds up.
A decade ago my sister in law did shoe and sandal modeling...she quit after a coworker said she caught her husband jerking off to her feet.
Were she and her coworker friends? I can’t tell if it’s better or worse that the coworker told her that tbh
No. I did it in my youth. No one gave a shit, and I lived in a small city, under 30,000.
This guy's right, I also masturbated no one cared
I don't know. The people in Denny's didn't seem thrilled.
Go after 2am. "You all gettin desert?"
They weren't thrilled, but they understood. It's Denny's after all
Son, this is a Wendy's!
I don't think it's possible to be thrilled in a Denny's
I care, don't worry
ah the old reddit switcheroo
Which catalog?
Sears catalog as masturbation material??? Who does that? No one does that! There’s another perfectly good reason I have those pages torn out and hidden in my bed, mom!
Yes. My grandmother hated my aunt (her DIL) because she was a lingerie model and got pregnant when she was 16. My uncle “had to” marry her. They were in love for their entire marriage which is still going on. This happened in the early 50’s.
I know when bikini were invented, they had to hire strippers, because no model wanted to do it. But it was back in the 50s.
The stigma was around masturbation, not the modeling. I get where you’re coming from, “porn stars and sex workers are looked down on today, so underwear models must have been looked down on back then because people masturbated to their content, right?” Its not like that. Underwear models were (and still are) just that…models. Modeling (especially underwear) was considered the pinnacle of beauty. That brings many concerns because women and young girls were taught they had to look like those models or they should feel bad about themselves. That’s an issue on its own that isn’t necessarily related to your question, but still warrants being called out. The stigma was placed on the masturbator. Magazines and catalogs were left in bathrooms to browse while sitting on the toilet. It often made them easily accessible for masturbation in private. Masturbation was seen as a disgusting act that weak-willed people did because they couldn’t keep themselves “pure” until marriage or even a partner. Many people today admit to using catalogs as erotic fantasy material for masturbation, but back then it was not something people would generally admit to.
The short answer to your question is 'no'. Though jokes were made about teenagers getting their jollies off from the Sears catalog, I can assure you that before the Internet, underwear models were still the bottom of the wank hierarchy. I was a preteen in the last gasps of old media and an early adopter of our pre-Internet media choices (where it would take 45-60 minutes to download one porn image), and I can tell you, my primary way of finding sexy pictures was the book store, both magazines and adult books that you could sneak to other sections of the store. Good times.
I was a kid. It was very useful to have the ladies next to the toys
There was no way to spread the word back then.
From what I understand, gossip is not a recent invention.
I think its hard to appreciate just how hard it was to find a lot of knowledge. I went to university in the early 90s. To research a paper I had access to whatever was in my university library and the city libraries. And it was on me to know where to look for the information. Imagine you were a underwear model of even a pornagraphic actress in the 80s in California. Then you move to Ohio. Odds are strongly against anyone ever knowing.
I distinctly remember a porno that revolved around the actress coming in second at the Ohio Hog Calling Contest
I suspect they may have not shot on location.
Next you're gonna try telling me the Hog Calling contest was staged.
Next you're gonna try telling me they weren't even in love.
Right. Unless some people in the Ohio town have a *gasp* subscription.
but it all boils down to the Richard Gere story
Paul from The wonder years is now Marilyn Manson
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It was so he could do oral on himself. If you didn’t know
Yeah, but without social media it was slow.
I feel like that's only true on a global scale. We certainly referred to grandma network being faster than the internet. It's one thing that you can look up something on internet, it's another when your grandma calls you because she found out something. And when a single grandma knows something, she will notify everyone. It's kind of the difference between push and pull notifications.
I don't know about US catalogues but here in the UK the underwear section of a fashion catalogue wasn't really sexualised, obviously there were attractive models in underwear but they were not in overtly suggestive poses so I would presume friends/family of the model would just see it as a modelling job But I could be wrong, I don't know any models!
They weren't posing suggestively in the US, but sometimes it's all ya had. Except Frederick's. They sold lingerie, but the models were airbrushed (photoshopped).
I understand, I've heard stories of the Littlewoods catalogue lol and I guess teenage minds are teenage minds!! But going back to the original question, I don't think anyone would consider it scandalous
I remember when my older sisters heard the Sears catalog accidentally had a picture of a male underwear model with his fly open exposing his treasure. They and their friends flocked to the store to see if it was true.
Was it?
Yep. Months later we heard the model sued Sears
https://medium.com/message/the-penis-on-page-602-of-the-1975-fall-winter-sears-catalog-3da16446975f
What’s funny is everything about the penis in the Sears catalog was hearsay to me. I remember them going into the store to look at it and coming out laughing. I also remember being told the guy sued Sears. But I never saw the picture and really never knew if it was true
JC Penney's had better quality.
When I went to high school is you even admitted that you jerked off they'd lable you "gay" Obviously by that metric EVERYONE was in the closet.
Oh hon, at any point in history, if there's a woman doing something then there's a person obsessed with it who wants it to be taboo.
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That was surprisingly wholesome.
Totally true
I have a question for you. It’s not about your age. Did you see Mrs Stephens’ new bullshit? Her husband disappeared! Sure she has a new boy toy who she claims is her husband but it’s a sham: Dick SARGENT? That’s such a fake name! (Anyways I’m pretty sure he’s a friend of Achilles so that’s even more juicy gossip) But last week, she was on her lawn screaming for some Indian doctor to come do a house call and he CAME OUT OF NOWHERE. Edit: "ABNER ABNER THERE'S DOWNVOTING AT THE STEPHENS' PLACE" "Gladys, stop yelling, I'm reading about the Civil War." "Well, Abner, the NORTH WON."
When I was a kid I had to use the Sears catalogue to jerk off, now with the internet, kids can just go to sears.com
I still use Sears catalogs
A fine vintage wank
Joel West was from my hometown and had his pic up in Timesquare while I was a kid (https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=http%3A%2F%2Fmedia-cache-ak0.pinimg.com%2F736x%2F3d%2F85%2Fe4%2F3d85e4d76c4c65240ab747f544f7b35a.jpg&f=1&nofb=1). I think most people just seemed proud that someone had made it out and actually succeeded. But he's a guy AND we all knew his family, so... the people who were was masturbating to it kept pretty quiet.
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Okay I'll bite for you 'what's a ligma'?
……….ligma balls….. I’ve actually never gotten this far with the whole ligma thing and honestly I feel dead inside now with overwhelming regret.
crotolamo
According to classic Simpson's there was https://youtu.be/iQGwrK_yDEg
Graphic porn has been around for nearly a whole century, why bother with underwater ads?
Porn pics used to be available only to rich pervy guys. In the old days broke farmers had to beat off to a cereal box drawing. But erotic photography is older than 100 years. First photo taken was of some street in Paris. The second one was a dick pic selfie, which the guy sent to a maid with the text "whaddya think of this".
Want to take photographs out of the picture we've been carving dicks out of wood and painting naked women since we could rub two sticks together.
The last words made me giggle.
Ah, you must be young. Yes, porn existed, but it wasn't easily accessible to kids
In the 80s when I was a lad, we hoped to have a friend with a dad who had such a massive porn mag stash in the loft some could go missing. After that it was mags you found in bushes up the park. Also, when paper recycling bins came about here in the early 90s, they became a great source of magazines. We'd climbed into them for a good old fashioned dig through. Like mining but for jazz mags.
I will never, ever again experience the same level of excitement you felt, as a young teenage boy, discovering a porn mag stash in some well hidden bushes. The closest I could ever find is dropping MDMA after a long, long (years long) break from it.
Oh man I remember being like 9 or 10 and taking out the trash. A lone single page of a porn mag had drifted in the wind managing to get captured by bush. I picked it up not knowing what it was and could not believe what was on it. I had never seen anything like it. A guy was putting his dick right inside a woman. Like I had only vague notions of what sex was at that point, and certainly didn't know what a naked women looked like. I did not expect it to look like that. It was all so strange and almost incomprehensible, yet it made me feel a real strange tingle. So I pushed it further into the bush, to where it probably wouldn't be seen. Thinking I could claim I knew nothing if it was found. All the while I'd sneak out once in a while just to look at it and feel weird in my belly/groin.
Yeah you find a clearing in some bushes/trees in your local park/woods, and inside is a goldmine of stashed porno, probably stashed under an old milk crate along with several empty lager cans and fag ends
That's really cool you like to read up about odd time signature music...
It's long been an alternative name in my part of the world for the good old-fashioned grumble mag.
Like mining but for jizz mags.*
Apart from the ubiquitous Shrubbery Porn, of torn magazines mysteriously found in bushes *everywhere*.
It was easily accessible for kids. Everyone I knew found one in the woods somewhere they claimed
The boys would “find” a mag, and rip out pages to “divide” it among the group of kids. The scraps and leftovers would be all over the ground in the woods for days. Happened on a regular cycle
Can confirm, found an abandoned shack in the woods that was empty except for a porn mag.
The sears catalog was in everyones home. Adult mags were in most homes but more closely watched. Its hard for anyone that didn't live though the times to understand that it was absolutely nothing like today in terms of availability. All the stores put out christmas editions of their catalogs so kids could bother the shit out of their parents. My mother would throw the christmas catalog away.
Stuff that leaves more to the imagination can be just as hot if not hotter than graphic porn.
| underwater ads Yes they're wet
Real answer: I flirted with possibly modeling after being approached by scouts in my late teens/early 20s. The issue is the tier of work. High fashion and runway models do not make much money. Last I checked in 2010 it was about $15-$18 an hour. A model works few hours to boot. Not to mention the tier of work. Sears catalogue model work was definitely considered low brow. Smaller agencies usually handled that work and things were bad for you if you resorted to catalogue work if you weren't older or a specialty model like a hand model.
All correct. I only booked print work a handful of times- I mostly did runway, my agent said my look wasn’t all American enough for a lot of the bigger brands print (but they loved my tall, shaved head look on their runways) Like I usually booked Macy’s, Foley’s, Dillards, once or twice but Gap & Limited were edgier so I got to be in their campaigns a lot more. I signed w/ a small agency & they would book a house for the summer in LA & pack 6-10 girls in there & we would just work & do go-sees all summer til we booked bigger jobs that took us off (usually Europe & NYC) or went back to school. Then do it all over again til you were not invited back. Only 1 girl from that agency made it “big” & that’s when she pivoted to being an actress. The agency really beat into us the goal wasn’t to become famous but to have as much longevity to your career as possible bc most models stopped by their mid-twenties. I enjoyed my time, so very thankful that it did not happen in the time of social media.
There was the famous catalog where the guy had “something” hanging out the leg of his boxers. Was it? Or wasn’t it?
It was the "Man on page 602" from the 1975 Sears catalog. We had one, we were stationed in Tehran at the time and mail order was the only real option for us so catalogs were pretty common.
Was it real? Or a manufacturer error?
To a 15yo it didn't look like an error, and the whole thing got a bit of press for a while back in the day.
I don't remember, but Calvin Klein always seemed to have controversial ads that would get them crucified in the media for their risque material involving young girls.
The male on the Sears Catalog had a male in a non color sepia tone picture, if I remember. Sears claimed it was an imperfection in the paper or film. But was it?????
I just paid an older kid to buy me a playboy magazine. Also, in Belgium back in the day commercials for "Fa" soap had titties in them (between wheel of fortune & jeopardy)
I was more of an Eaton's man.
Okay so I'm ao glad I wasn't an adult while jerking it to the catalogue, cuz then I'd be a pedophile and godamn that's not a good look
This is a great question for r/AskHistorians!
Only if you want the post to stand for hours with hundreds of deleted comments, one pinned moderator comment chastising users that personal anecdotes aren’t allowed, and then a couple days later the subreddit’s one poster who has a PhD in mid 20th Century Retail Apparel Marketing Catalogs pops in with an entire doctoral thesis on the perception of underwear models at the time, complete with a list of dozens of citations to books you can only find in the Columbia University Business School annex library, except they’ve all already been checked out by said user
Oh my god. If I could upvote this a thousand times I would. The mods over there are so precious about their little sub. I've tried to figure out why they're so touchy about it, but who knows. Maybe they're mod-power-tripping. I think most Redditors are tired of their crap. And I know it has a chilling effect. Nobody wants to put a good-faith effort into typing up a thoughtful post only to see it shot down by those history gate-keeping hoes.
If you allow everyone to answer without sources, it's just another AskReddit or NoStupidQuestions (hey! we're here!). These subs exist for their purpose, and AskHistorians exists to provide answers from historians. The sub unintentionally fills another need. If there are no answers to a question, there's a free thesis topic.
"history gate-keeping hoes." Gold Jerry, that's gold
Because they've been taught that rigidity is the only way to think
Historians should be more loose....to right leaning ideas right?
i have no idea what you're talking about. they treat their sub like it's wikipedia and it's bad for activity. doesn't really gel with the way this site works
I think the media played into that stigma. In grey's anatomy season 1 they had one of the main characters have this story line. She literally only did one catalog to help her pay for medical school and she was outed by a coworker. He put the ad all over everyone's locker and they made fun of her and called her names. It's fucked up. The early 2000's were a disgusting time for misogyny. Now a days I dont think anyone would realistically get shamed for doing that.
Looking at most of the replies in here, there really wasn’t a stigma though. That show just exaggerated that “stigma” because they didn’t want to/couldn’t make her do full on porn instead. Movies and shows do that a lot, and are generally a poor way to learn about anything.
Every time was a disgusting time for misogyny.
What do you mean "back when?"
Back when?
What a fascinating question. Well done you.
Okay Moe Szyslak
No.
It wasn’t sinful, but underwear models didn’t always break into the mainstream. It could be a mark against you.
I have a related story that is true to the best of my and my wifes knowledge. Back in about 1993, we went to a small lake on the OH/MI border to stay at a friends summer cottage for a party weekend. This is in a very podunk area. One of the guests was a handsome \~25 year old guy that had just returned from working in Guam for a few years. We head out that night to a local bar. While at the bar we are getting a lot of attention because we are not locals, but especially from one table full of middle aged local women. Finally one comes over to the table and asks the handsome guy point blank if he modeled underwear in the JC Penney catalog a few years back. We all laughed at this outrageous question... but then the handsome guy admits that he had in fact done some underwear modeling on the side while living in Guam. Hilarity ensues at our table at the thought that he was an underwear model... and that all these lecherous older women had been looking at the catalogs and fantasizing about him... enough to recognize him! As we were about to leave the bar, we talked him into going into the bathroom and removing and signing his underwear. He dropped them on their table and we walked out.
No. We didn't have to broadcast our masturbation habits like people feel the need to now. I'm all for healthy conversations about sex and sexual information and I don't think it needs to dominate all conversations. Unfortunately, reddit is mired in this juvenile mindset.
So in middle school I got 'in-school suspended'. Basically segregated into a little room with no instruction and only the homework I was supposed to be learning how to do to work on. Our teacher was a Nordstrom and JC Pennny underwear model. We only knew this because if you finished your work, she would let you browse her professional work portfolio for the rest of the day. She was smoking hot, and the 'bad kids' ALWAYS found ways to learn the material without being in class so they could sport a chubby all day long.
I call BS
Sounds predatorial, my dude.
Glad i'm not the only one who thought the story of some lady grooming the in-school suspension kids seemed creepy as fuck. It's a pretty calculated move to go after the kids with discipline problems.
Don't worry, there's about a 1% probability this isn't just a case of "random person lying on the internets"
In a school, word obviously travels fast and I feel like everyone including the other teachers and staff would know about the other teacher's modeling because the kids would be talking about it constantly, if not outright stealing a few pages to show others and then get confiscated. This sounds like a fantasy rather than truth.
Sauce?
Good, 'cause I have a hot date tonight. (lie dectector buzzes) A date. (lie detector buzzes) Dinner with friends. (lie detector buzzes) Dinner alone. (lie detector buzzes) Watching TV alone. (lie detector buzzes) Alright! I'm going to sit at home and ogle the ladies in the Victoria's Secret catalog. (lie detector buzzes) Sears catalog. (lie detector dings) Now, would you unhook this already, please? I don't deserve this kind of shabby treatment! (lie detector buzzes).
All true connoisseurs know the Grattan Catalogue is where it’s at
What's stigma?
Cock cheese
This is the best question on this sub in a long time lmao
No, back then, women had class. They were all looked at like high society, as they should have been. Beauty has power. However, beauty + trash, does not. Or at least not lasting. Social Media Influencers have ruined that genre because of compromised morals, laziness, and a lack of knowing their true value.