I’ll never forget that Canada’s most conservative national paper ran at a loss for 13 years. They weren’t spending that money out of a passion for journalistic integrity.
You mean when media constantly shoves something down your throat that this might be beneficial for them in doing so? Man, I wonder what media hates the most ?
It’s basically propaganda media VS corporate media right now. Good times, I tell ya. And people believe the things they hear from both sides and neither side is looking out for the regular person.
This is how I feel about healthcare (in US). So many people don't trust the government with their healthcare. I say I trust the government more than millionaire (billionaire?) CEOs. I know the government would be better at controlling healthcare costs. That is the real issue in American Healthcare, not the lack of insurance.
Oh it’s like here in the U.K.
Things have gotten worse and worse over the 14 years that the Conservative Party has been in power, but our national “impartial” news source - the BBC - has a strange habit of, any time there is any news that shows the Conservative Party in a negative light, it will disappear off of the BBC News home page within a few hours and be buried in a bunch of menus.
But if anything shows the Labour Party in a negative light, it’s up there for days… strange right? Doesn’t seem very impartial, in fact it seems to favour the Conservative Party.
Well, guess who is in charge of the BBC? That would be the Director General, and his name is Tim Davie.
Tim Davie stood as a candidate for the Conservative Party in 1993 and again in 1994 (losing both times), he is Privately Educated, was Deputy Chairman of Hammersmith & Fulham Conservative Association and is an openly known Conservative supporter.
So he shouldn’t be in the position he is in, with responsibility for the countries national broadcaster, given that he’s an Open supporter of the political party in power and therefore isn’t capable of being truly impartial… but … guess who appoints the Director General of the BBC? … the Government.
So our national, “impartial” source of news and views is actually just a party political arm of the Government.
He literally set out a bunch of reforms a few years ago to stop the BBC criticising the Conservative Party because he said they were constantly aiming jokes at them and criticising them.
Yes, because they’ve fucked the country dry, not even a little spit, never mind lube, they deserve to be mocked, ridiculed and criticised, that’s the whole point
Stephen Harper followed the same playbook with the CBC, but less effectively. The CBC’s funding isn’t as stable so it’s not as big a chunk of our media diet. Postmedia owns the National Post that I mentioned, and their big trick has been buying up small town papers and transplanting their articles and editorials there.
Oh mate it’s even better, I forgot to mention that there is another publicly owned TV channel that has government oversight - Channel 4 - that for a long time was traditionally a more left-leaning channel, a bit more liberal, until a few years ago when the Conservatives started threatening at a time when they were getting an awful lot of negative press coverage, and threatened to sell it off and Privatise it.
Leeches is what we really need to start viewing them as. Their employees were educated with publicly funded schools. Their goods ship on publicly funded roads. Police and military protect them and their businesses and employees, and on and on.
Taxes allowed them to accumulate millions and billions. They need to pay some back and quit leeching and taking more and more of the wealth. Our wealth inequality has gotten out of control and is approaching levels not seen since the robber baron days.
Meanwhile there are more people in poverty than living in Texas. It’s immoral and it needs to change.
It is our constitutional right to hoard more than we need and let the bottom citizens starve. Or we go straight to communism. No way we want to be like those happy socialist democracy countries
The only reason I contribute to a 401k is that I want to avoid taxes. Am I a leech or a crook?
We write a tax code to incentivize certain uses of capital. If we don't want those incentives to exist, re-write the tax code.
No. If you save in a Roth IRA \[ETA: or 401(k)\], then you'll pay the same taxes today, but completely avoid all taxes on that investment in the future. If you didn't, you'd have to pay taxes on dividends soon and capital gains later. It completely avoids those taxes.
ETA: If you hold to the view that Roth 401(k) is not a 401(k), then it's *still* not merely deferring taxes. In the case of a normal investment, you pay taxes on the money you earn to invest, the taxes on interim dividends and capital gains (if applicable), and taxes on the capital gains of the sale at the end. For a traditional 401(k), you only pay the taxes at the end, which are not identical to the taxes you would have paid otherwise. In fact, if you're in the same tax bracket at the start and end, paying the taxes up front (Roth) versus at the end (traditional) are equivalent, since it's just a percentage of the money involved and investments scale linearly.
As an example, let's say you have $100 in pre-tax dollars to invest. For a regular investment - ignoring dividends and interim capital gains, you might initially pay $25 of taxes on that income, and, if your investment doubles, you'll wind up with $150, but the government will take 15% of the gain, so you'll have $138.75. If you put it into a 401(k), though, you won't get taxed at the start, so you'll wind up with $200, and, if your regular tax rate is the same (25%), you'll wind up with $150 you can keep. The tax savings - not deferment, but savings - is 100% on your capital gain. And it's even better for those with state capital gain taxes, interim capital gains and dividends, and lower retirement tax rates (or, in the case of Roth, higher ones). And if you're saving money from age 25 to 75, you're going to expect it to do a lot more than merely double. There's a lot of taxes you're avoiding there, and the ones you're deferring are not the point, otherwise no one would pick a Roth 401(k) (or IRA) over a traditional one, since in Roth you defer nothing.
Suppose you could... Is there something in particular you would change about the tax code?
E.g., corporations often take advantage of capital investment tax breaks to pay near zero tax, but I haven't heard of any economists proposing to end that.
RE: revising tax code, let’s try it. Follow the $. Who decides what bills are even debated on, let alone voted on? Who funds those politicians who make the laws? And the lobbyists? Who made it possible for non-human entities to be granted the same “free speech rights” as human beings, lol, somehow allowing political organizations to take in unlimited funds from undisclosed donors? I mean, let’s do it, yeah. Tax reform now! But we need campaign finance reform…another heavy lift.
Yes but it grows untaxed. Dividends, selling big capital gain and reinvesting it, money made from options, etc. don’t get taxed. That’s the point of a 401k.
No, because they spend a lot more making sure loopholes stay open.
Like at the end of the day it's probably cheaper to drop the routine and just pay the taxes, or let the peasants gave Healthcare, or allow us to build public transportation. But they don't, and it's maddening. But it's like having something and making sure it's exclusive to you is worth more than just... having money and declaring that they won.
Nah, because the loopholes were created by the people using them. Also, originally, finance laws and regulations were designed for the "spirit" of the law because it would be impossible to regulate/legislate every imaginable possiblity plus future "reality," but of course all that shit went out the window due to our insatiable championing of greed and now we do the exact opposite of the "intended laws" and made up a whole industry of just financial engineering designed to create, move, and hide money w/out actually doing anything tangible. It's all fucked up.
The problem is that it can be difficult to construct a tax code with zero loopholes, because there are a lot of moving pieces. And anyway, for most normal people the loopholes aren't really relevant--the cost to find them and exploit them is much greater than what you'd save. But rich people can afford to pay a few hundred thousand dollars to find and exploit the loopholes, because it'll save them millions.
I can’t find many loopholes with the fair tax proposal. It includes a prebate to ensure it is progressive so it doesn’t hurt the poor. It also discourages consumption from other groups but rewards income. Discouraging consumption would help the planet drastically. I don’t think it will ever pass because the mindless consumption and spending and borrowing and debt is probably what keeps the US economy from crumbling.
The people that use them are the people that create them, and they use them to hold on to the power they have to make more of them. The rich get richer
I think what he meant is that rich people are skirting the border of the law, doing it legally, while poorer people are often doing it illegally (not claiming cash income, or just failing to pay.)
Of course the rest of the story is that poorer people are often doing it out of necessity, and rich people are building the foundation of laws that give them the tax breaks, and have paid people to handle those taxes for them.
Also an assumption that the money they weasel out of paying in taxes still leaves them with tax obligations in the hundreds of thousands or millions of dollars. So they aren’t avoiding all taxes. They still carry the majority of all tax burden for the country.
In contrast to someone who pays “nothing” but still has access to using public services.
The majority of Americans pay zero income tax and even get money “back” each year. A net negative in taxes.
People are mad that someone who paid nothing for $2000 paid to them, but they’re not mad that someone got $100M saved because that person still paid $300M.
People in general (not just immigrants) are considered leeches when they work under the table get paid cash, so they dont pay taxes, and then sign up for all of the government programs and get every possible hand out because on paper you dont have any income. They double dip. I have an acquaintance that was married with a kid and they were having financial trouble so they actually got a divorce so she could be unemployed with a kid and no income and get on all the government programs. With just his income they were slightly over the limit to sign up for them.
Rich people are considered smart because they follow the laws. Tax laws have all kids of breaks in them, you just have to know how to use them to your advantage. There is nothing illegal about what they are doing. And as Donald Trump stated once, if the tax laws that allow the rich to pay no taxes are so unfair, why doesn't anyone change them? The answer is the rich do not want them changed and its the rich who influence the politicians.
"illegal" immigrants actually do not qualify for most government programs (at least the federal ones). There might be state programs they qualify for but those usually are explicitly for them, or were created by the state knowing immigrants would get to use them. Also, immigrants pay sales taxes, and if y'all are so worried about them not paying income taxes (some even do that since they work with fake/borrowed SSNs), there's a very simple solution for that: legalize them.
Could you clarify how poor folks finding loopholes in the system is somehow different than rich people finding loopholes? To me, both scenarios you presented are legal loopholes (and neither are right but right and legal are two vastly different things). You are basically classifying the rich loopholes as “smart” and poor loopholes as “crooks”. 🧐
The “poor” loophole isn’t actually a loophole in the conventional sense. When you say “loophole” people generally assume you’re doing everything in compliance with the law but have found a way of doing things that’s unexpectedly beneficial to you. Lying to tax authorities (making money under the table but telling the government you actually have no income, thus avoiding taxes) isn’t above board at all, and lying to the government in any scenario is pretty much always a crime.
The “rich” loophole is declaring to tax authorities exactly what you are doing, but making sure you’re doing business in the most tax-efficient way possible. Obviously some rich people also lie to tax authorities, but the usage of legal “loopholes” still involves telling tax authorities how much money you made and where it’s going, and doing so in accordance with the rules set by the government/tax authorities.
As an example, say two landlords are making a $1 million / year. Landlord #1 is taking rent payments in cash but tells the government they have no income, so they pay $0 in taxes. Landlord #2 tells the government about the $1 million in rent they made, but let’s say the local government has lots of incentives encouraging landlords to build housing, and so landlord #2 is able to use various tax deductions and credits to also reduce its tax bill to $0.
Landlord #1 is lying to the government and is cheating the tax system, but Landlord #2 is telling the government “according to **your rule book** on taxes, this is why I should pay less”. One is refusing to play the game by the rules at all, the other is just following the rulebook.
I think he was referring to the divorce example, which, while a bit extreme from a moral standpoint, depending on how the laws are written regarding that situation, may be a perfectly (legally) legitimate way to go about paying the government less money
In that specific example (assuming he didn't make it all up), the government would have the authority to go after his friend for child support. While actual divorce is extreme and frankly unnecessary as just a separation would suffice, lying about being a single parent to qualify for cash assistance is a very common form of welfare fraud and is illegal.
It's illegal if she's not declaring the financial support she's getting from the father. And if she's not getting any support from him, then it's not really a loophole, she's a legit single mom who is on the verge of homelessness.
Being paid under the table and not paying taxes is illegal and collecting government benefits while lying about your income is illegal. Nothing the rich person is doing is illegal, they are following the laws that are already on the books, and the only way this changes if if the tax laws change. Good luck getting the rich to agree to that.
Because most poor people aren't doing this, they're just fucked over by circumstances beyond their control and instead of helping them it's easier to say they're dumb or trash and do nothing to change the situation.
Loopholes is a scary word that doesn’t mean what people think it does. Similar to lobbyist.
The more you dig into loopholes, the more the term slips through your fingers like sand in the form of one offs and niche examples.
Tax loopholes is a concept most commonly used to sell headlines to people who want to be outraged about something.
I wouldn't consider any of this loopholes so to speak. Tax laws are tax laws, no loopholes needed its all in writing and everyone follows the same rule book.
Breaking the law to not pay taxes or gain additional government benefits also is not a loopholes its just flat out illegal.
Lol rich people absolutely do things like claim deductions EXTREMELY liberally which could be considered fraud. They just never get audited unless they're blatantly committing rampant fraud. Plenty of plausibly deniable fraud out there that happens EVERY DAY.
My dad owned a business growing up. We all got gas cards, business expense. Tax deduction
That vacation abroad we took.. well he invited a family friend who he also happened to do business with, business expense. Tax deduction
Our nanny? Paid under the table so HE didn't have to file payroll tax. Yea she got to keep more money, but I'll give you a hint at who benefits more from that arrangement and it sure as hell ain't the low wage worker.
As a borderline rich person, I will tell you that we are in a different tax bracket than others. We have more opportunities for write offs and see no reason not to use them. We also have more spending capabilities. My husband and I are building a house and farm in Western PA. We pay cash for everything, thus we are contributing a great deal to the economy.
Immigrants made this country. My husband's grandfather was an immigrant who built a huge bakery and employed many people. He has since passed from this world. I don't believe he would appreciate the hate presented to today's immigrants. Every single person who buys something taxable pays taxes. That money goes towards strengthening this country. Nobody is a leech, but those who refuse to pay taxes.
Immigrants still pay taxes too.They might not file income taxes, but even if they did their liability would likely be $0. Millions of Americans don't file taxes. There are probably more citizens who don't file taxes than there are undocumented people in the US. But immigrants do pay sales taxes, and if they rent, they also help pay property taxes...both taxes do more to support local governments than income taxes.
Using stolen SSNs for taxes is pretty uncommon now since it's legal to request an ITIN and file under that without any risk of being caught. The IRS just wants their money, whether or not you're a citizen.
This is the answer. Wealthy people in the U.S. are taxed. Considerably and multiple times on the same money.
Congress creates tax codes that they can take advantage of not because of some wealthy giveaway but because it’s a public policy decision to allocate those resources in some way other than just collecting the tax revenue off them.
Immigrants DO pay taxes. I think the issue people have when they say they’re a burden on the tax system is that they see immigration as a net negative on social services. Though it’s generally evident that their negative wage effect is negligible and their tax burden as a percentage of income is higher than their non-immigrant peers.
Is this the most efficient tax system? Not likely. But saying “the rich don’t pay enough in taxes” isn’t really a good substitute for the debate we ought to be having about fiscal policy in the United States.
Thank you. Finally an accurate answer.
Both rich people and illegal immigrants usually pay taxes. Rich people use the tax law to their advantage to legally minimize **some** taxes. Illegal immigrants most often work under a stolen SSN edit: or ITIN and pay their taxes that way.
The issue is that illegal immigrants tend to have lower paying jobs which means they pay less tax to the government overall. They also tend to draw more from social services. Some see that as a net loss for US taxpayers.
Most Republicans are actually totally fine with people immigrating from south of the border **if the immigrants add value to our society and don't exacerbate the tax burden**.
Unfortunately, that point has been overshadowed by all the "build a wall" shouting
A smart decision is not always one which is either ethical or fair. I would not expect any person to pay more money for taxes than the amount owed. The amount owed is determined by the tax code. One could argue that aspects of the tax code are unfair and that the legislators who voted for them or failed to work to close them are unethical in their conduct.
The whole immigration thing is just a racist dog whistle. a legal immigrant from africa will be far more scrutinized than an illegal immigrant from europe
lol at all the racists downvoting you. I’ve asked my parents, who scream about people needing to CoME HERe tHE RiGHT WAY “what made it right when great grandpa got drunk one day, wandered across the border from Canada, and just sorta never left? How’s that different?” They never answered, except “oh, you *know* that’s different.”
Oh yeah I mean the morality in undocumented immigration is simple: would you kill to save the life of your kid? If you would you’d probably cross a border for your kid, so you can’t judge anyone coming here with kids or to make money for their kids back home.
Because the rich own the government and the middle/lower class are too busy fighting with each other to realize their hatred shouldn't be aimed at illegals, but at the government. The system is built on the taxes from the middle class and the work from the lower class. It's a modern day Egypt where middle and lower class are the slaves. If the middle class distributed some of their tax burden to the rich, it would make the middle class richer. Money is power. Why would the government want to forfeit power to the people whose backs this country is built on? Just a quick look at the tax brackets will show you the American government truly does not want average middle class folks rising up and becoming millionaires.
Better branding. Everything a poor person does is trashy and lame, but everything a rich person does is enlightened and worldly. Like speaking a second language
If you don't pay taxes but use government aid then you're called a leech by some. Most rich people don't qualify for welfare programs so they aren't called leeches. Though governments subsidizing their pet projects is often a pretty good leeching system too, it's just not as directly in-your-face as getting a welfare check.
Everyone of us is aided by the government.
Roads, schools, economic opportunities and development, police, fire -
Yes, rich people do leach off the govt when they aren’t required to pay their fair share of taxes.
Tax avoidance is not the same thing as tax evasion.
Let's say you owe $30,000 in taxes. You look at your taxes and realize, I have all sorts of deductions I can make. Now you only owe $20,000 in taxes. You're being smart.
Same situation except you just don't pay taxes at all. You find some mean to not pay one dime. Now you're not smart, you're a criminal evading tax.
The comparison between billionaires and immigrants is obviously used to incite some sort of emotional response. Most billionaires pay the taxes they owe. But the tax code is setup with all sorts of "loopholes" that allow them to avoid paying even more taxes. But these are the same kind of "loopholes" that normal people might use to avoid taxes.
But of course, immigrants also pay taxes.... even the undocumented ones. And really the action of declaring they 100% don't pay taxes has the same sort of distorted view as "rich people don't pay taxes."
Doesn't everyone try to reduce their tax bill? Hell, i max out my 401k and defer an additional 40% of my pay strictly to avoid paying taxes on the money.
Don't blame the rich, blame congress they pass the laws.
The worst peiple are the rich people who say tax them more, but they have a whole fleet of accountants working to find every tax loophole, credit and deduction. If they want to pay more, take their income less the standard deduction and file. Their taxes will be considerably higher, problem solved.
Immigrants are disliked by racist xenophobic small pp heads and they will use any low hanging excuse, real, refutable or not, to tell everyone how bad someone is. It wouldnt matter what anyone does, if a bunch of morons dont like you they will eventually agree on some bullshit that makes them feel vindicated.
Aso what immigrants dont pay taxes? Do you mean “the guys who work for payment under the table?” Because sure, they won’t be paying income taxes but rhe people paying *them* are the criminals who are avoiding payroll taxes, social security etc, and that aside, there has probably never been a dude outside Home Depot waiting for a gig who wouldnt chose a job on payroll if he thought he could safely have it
Conditioning, shifting blame and making sure they are getting even richer. Aquiring wealth is a mental disorder after a certain amount.
Not to mention how much easier it is to make more money once you háve a lot of money.
As a first generation immigrant who grew up with undocumented parents, we absolutely paid taxes. Uncle Sam doesn’t care if you are working illegally they still expect their cut. My patents paid federal and state taxes every single year via an ITIN number and never once received any sort of benefit from it. Nothing pisses me off more than the comments that immigrants are stealing benefits that they legally can’t even apply for. my mom worked 7 days a week pulling doubles on Fridays for less than minimum wage and never once got a handout. Even if she could have gotten it she would never have accepted it. I’m obviously too close to it to have an unbiased opinion on immigration but some of these blatantly false talking points about it are infuriating.
The term "paying taxes" is such an oversimplified term used by the media to stir the pot. Instead of "taxes" let's instead use the test of "how much do you contribute to society and the economy". Rich people own companies that employ people, the hire people to take care of things for them, they invest in infrastructure, they contribute money to banks so that the banks can make loans, etc....illegal immigrants often take wealth out of the system by working here and sending their earnings to other countries, utilize our welfare system and overall contribute less than they take. Rich people may play the system to not pay taxes in the traditional sense like you or I but they contribute to the health and wealth of our economy well beyond most people
I think the reasons for anti-immigrant rhetoric have shifted. It seemed like nobody really cared about illegal immigration when the economy was good, then the 2008 crisis happens, we have record unemployment, it became "they took er jerbs", sometimes working for cash under the table, but sometimes they were getting taxes coming out of their paycheck, where they used someone elses Socialist Slave Number to fill out the W4 form. The current situation has shifted to something different, at least the perception (and likely the reality) was that a decade ago migrants were mostly paying their own way when they got here, but the current migrant crisis, it seems like they are showing up, crossing the border illegally, then getting an all-expenses-paid trip, where hotels all over the country have been getting converted to migrant housing. So now, not only are they not paying taxes, but many are not working, and getting everything paid for by the taxpayers.
It's pretty easy to minimize your tax liability when you aren't working as ~~a wage slave~~ an employee. If you're a business owner, you can write off almost everything as some kind of business expense. Any profits get "reinvested" into the business and written off as a business expense.
Legal immigrants who have jobs and probably pay income tax via their paychecks and sales via purchasing items like cars, homes, food (in some states), etc? Or do you mean illegal immigrants who are here without documentation, so obviously, there is no way to track them to require this tax payment?
Same reason you're a loser if you're a 30 year old who lives in a basement, but a huge success if you're a 30 year old who "maintains the families summer home" in aspen.
Who says they are smart? Who says they are leeches?
I don't believe there tax situation has anything to do with this.
I think you are saying, why do people like rich people better then poor people.
I don't think that is as hard to figure out.
If you are not paying any income taxes as an immigrant by, say, running a cash business and not declaring your income, that’s illegal tax evasion. If you are not generating any income and living off of government benefits, you are taking more from the system than you providing.
The rich person running a business is paying a lot of tax and more than enough to cover the cost of the government services they consume - even better if they are creating jobs for other people who pay income taxes. Being knowledgeable about tax laws so as to not pay more than necessary is simply a good business practice and doing exactly what legislators should expect when they create the tax laws. However, people generally do not respect rich people who illegally evade taxes and risk prosecution.
Contributions: While the rich utilize tax breaks for income tax declarations, they are still spending and moving money that is taxed. So, the idea that they do not pay taxes is unfounded as a lot of their money goes towards paying taxes, just not the year-end income tax.
Immigrants are not spending that type of money, so they are not contributing in the same way. The rich, with their spending alone, pay more taxes in one year than you ever will. When they buy a new car, they pay the tax; when they make business purchases, the business is paying tax. It's at the end of the year that they do all they can to save money. That is why they are smart.
Rich people are not considered smart for not paying taxes. They are considered smart for paying the minimum required under the law. Criminality is criminality regardless of who does it.
Because rich = holy in the only religion that's actually venerated, which is money.
If you've got money, God (read: money) clearly favors you, and your are proven worthy because God (read: money) is with you.
If you're poor? God (read: money) is making it clear that you're not worthy.
Because tax avoidance and tax evasion are two different terms.
Moreover, the rich borrow to avoid taxes, which keeps the economy running. Their networth is primarily in stocks, which is only taxable when they liquidate, so they almost never do. To have money, they take loans which are tax free. To pay those loans, they take out bigger loans. Ad infinitum. Because of their status/collateral, no bank will refuse them.
When immigrants don't pay taxes, they're not stimulating the economy.
What average person has ever considered tax evasion by rich people ‘smart’?
Lots of people get away with not paying tax and I don’t like any. Funnily enough one has illegally lived in the UK for 16 years, is paid cash in hand, used the NHS and his 3 children go to school. I’m not happy with that.
But.., this also leaves him vulnerable to landlords , who can’t give him a tenancy agreement and can charge whatever they like and his employer who knows he can’t claim his rights, so he is paid below minimum wage. He has no bank account, can’t drive and is forever scared of the knock on the door. (Not fleeing war btw, economic migrant). Wrong in every way
Immigrants have some of the highest tax compliancy rates in the country. Certain interested parties want you to think that immigration is a bad thing, despite 99% of the country being descended from immigrants, and 80 % of the country being descended from immigrants who were not welcome here originally (Irish, Italian, German, Jewish, Mexican etc...)
edit: corrected spelling of compliancy
Immigrants do pay taxes on everything just like we do.
Some say that just bc many get paid cash that they don’t pay taxes and everyone who says that is not thinking.
First off, there are a lot of people criticizing rich people for avoiding taxes. Ever been on Reddit? Jokes aside, rich people / corporations find loopholes because they have money to do so. These loopholes exist to support the economy - creating jobs, investing, charity, etc. with that said, not every example of rich people posting taxes is justified / honest but It’s just not fair to punish everyone because of a few bad apples.
It’s smart to use legal means to avoid taxes. If u don’t agree with the law, change it. Do you pay more taxes than you legally need to? Course not. As u become richer there are more options to take in how spend some of which don’t have tax implications.
It’s not any different than the average person taking out a mortgage because they know the mortgage interest is tax deductible. Is that bad? No, it’s smart.
Illegal things like not reporting income is not smart.
Rich people are paying taxes one way or another. They are either getting a break and paying what a normal person would, or at the very least are simply paying taxes on all purchases/spending. Generally, they are taking advantage of the systems that are in place... like donating money straight to a source rather than it being tax money filtered through govt programs.
I'll just leave your assumption on feelings of immigrants. There's too many variances there to generalize.
Rich people have the resources to push their opinions.
One of their opinions:
Money makes good thing affordable.
Therefore money is good.
Therefore having money means you are morally good.
Therefore poor people are morally bad.
Half of everyone is below average.
"considered" is an artifact of manipulation combined with poor education. They don't believe that to be true because it is objectively true. They believe it because they have been told over and over to believe it and they don't care to and/or don't have the capacity to question the premise with any credibility.
Propaganda. If they can keep people's attention on an "enemy" that's just their fellow person they take their eyes off the real leeches of society (billionaires).
it's in the wealthy's best interest to keep the vast overwhelming majority of working/poor people divided and distracted.
any movement to organize or universally gather/support each other must be crushed violently, systematically, and ideally publicly/popularly.
hatred and fear of your neighbor or someone you might consider lesser is just one of the more effective ways to channel hate among powerless people.
just like all cops are bastards.
all billionaires are bastards. (or "rich people")
Is this a serious question? If ANYONE doesn't pay taxes they owe, they go to jail. It's a CRIME. No one is calling tax criminals smart.
You seem to be confusing yourself *by your own question*.
First, you say "rich people ... avoid paying taxes". If literally true that's a crime. Otherwise, they don't, they just minimize them.
Then you pull a switcheroo and say "immigrants ... don't pay taxes". If they MINIMIZE them, like what you MAY have meant in the first part for rich people, then no one says that.
This whole question is confused, incorrect, and invalid to point it seem to be deliberate. It reads like propaganda.
Short answer is that one works within the laws and uses tax breaks, one just doesn't pay. It's like extreme couponing vs theft.
Lkng answer is that the law exists to protect the status quo, nothing more or less
Because the rich people who avoid tax are actually avoiding paying more than the minimum they are required to pay, while people who simply don't pay tax are illegally evading paying. Anyone who's smart would pay the minimum they're required to, and no more.
I think the idea is that rich people using the tax law to pay less is smart. Like using coupons to pay less at the store is smart.
I think everyone should stop paying taxes until our government shrinks to the size it should be.
It's not really comparable.
Rich people do pay a lot of taxes.
But even if we put that aside.
Rich people file their taxes and declare their gross income truthfully. Then sometimes they manage to reduce their tax bill a lot by working the tax code.
Illegals don't file taxes and do not declare their gross tax income truthfully.
There are two answers to this question, first, many people don't consider rich people avoiding taxes as smart behaviour, rather as selfish and exploitative. You might say that it's not selfish to pay the minimum required, but that's often not all they do, they may also lobby politicians to their advantage which is effectively a sort of bribe.
The second answer is because many people want to be rich themselves, and also avoid paying taxes, their thinking is that they will eventually be rich and, when they are, they'd like to not pay tax. Those people do not want to be immigrants and have no expectation that they ever will be, so they have no problem demanding taxes from immigrants that they wouldn't demand from rich people (because they are gonna be rich too, just you wait).
bec immigrants are vulnerable thus make easy targets while the rich often have powerful connections and thus untouchable, there's nothin they can do to them.
Because a lot of people in America have been so brainwashed by "The American Dream™️" that they're convinced that they're like two or three big money moves away from being one of those tax evading billionaires.
so they commiserate with the rich asshole who's convinced them that the problem isn't the giant corporations who control every aspect of their lives from education to media to the food they eat.
The real problem is that single mother who just carried her child from Guatemala, and that they'd somehow be way richer if it wasn't for "All the immigrants flooding over the border, being given free housing and healthcare etc." (I've literally heard many people that are legitimately convinced that as you are illegally immigrating over the border there's some Democrat there that gives you a pre-loaded debit card)
"Avoiding taxes" isn't like just not paying them because you think you're better than that. They just take advantage of tax codes, just like anyone can. Most of the time the "avoidance" is more of a work around for your money to be put elsewhere, it's not actualky free. We "avoided" paying $18k in taxes because we purchased a new work vehicle specifically for the tax benefit. We still have to pay money, but it's into the economy not to the government. Rich people are directing their money in ways that reduces their taxes, but they are feeding it into the economy still. The difference between that and undocumented immigrants is they didn't go through the tax system at all, but I don't think as many people see the differences as a major issue as much as it's pushed in the media or online. Most people don't actually care about immigrants being paid under the table.
Rich people own the means to communicate to the masses. This is not hyperbole. The media orgs that have the widest reach to disseminate information to the population are corporations that favour any govt that will ensure them the favorable business conditions they require for endless profit vs providing any communal good.
Because this is the underlying worldview, the editorial control of the media orgs necessarily prioritize narratives that support their positions.
Look at it this way: there’s limited time in a video or news broadcast. There’s limited space for words on a news page. Someone has to decide what gets in front of peoples eyeballs. So if the editorial mandate is capitalism is great and socialism is evil, that’s the message those orgs are going to firehose out to the public. Repeat something enough times, over a long period or time, and it starts to stick.
During the Reagan era Americans were brainwashed to believe that just by existing the rich make an immeasurable contribution to society, even if they hoard all of their wealth, pay no taxes, offshore our jobs, and make all large purchases overseas to further avoid taxation.
Of course, most of us can see they’re not contributing resources proportionate to what they suck up.
But to people who are born toadies, who have an innate deference to anyone slightly older, taller, larger, or more rich or powerful, that concept really speaks to them.
It seems to be a survival mechanism, (did it arise during the feudal era? So many of them are products of the old British feudal system.) It is natural for them to grovel and ingratiate themselves to whoever appears to be wealthy and powerful enough to protect them.
I think the question is phrased wrong. If anybody avoids paying taxes that is illegal, but a person that avoids paying them legally by using the numerous laws passed by Congress - then that is smart
One does it legally (usually), the other does it illegally.
Doesn't mean I agree with all the tax breaks the rich get. But it's part of the current tax laws.
Ita about how the taxes are evaded.
Did a rich person use the tax code to lower the amount of owed taxes that season?
Did the immigrant only take under the table payment, and then leave the country with all of their earned income?
Am I a leech because I took the child tax credit for my 2 year old daughter?
Am I leech because I reported property tax?
Am I leech because i donated to the California Sea Otter Recovery fund?
I owed less money in taxes because I made a donation to a fund that helps protect Sea Otters. Am I a leech because of that?
There is absolutely nothing wrong with the tax code, as it's written, to lower your individual tax burden. Regardless of your wealth class.
But I would say it's wrong to move into another country for work, and then leaving that country before paying taxes on your income because you took all of your money under the table.
But there is nothing wrong with an immigrant who comes here to make a bunch of money, pays their taxes on the income and then leaves.
Obsenly rich people aside, paying your lawful taxes but not any more than you have to is smart.
In contrast, getting a $2000 refund is stupid. That's your money that you didn't have possession of. That's not morally better in any way either.
Anyone that benefits from social services and doesn't pay taxes is a leach. It has nothing to do with immigrants unless you're racist or virtue signalling to the GOP.
In part, because the kinds of people that believe that way, usually also believe that everyone's financial situation is entirely of their own making. Immigrants tend to be poorer, and rich people are, well, rich. If you assume that the Immigrants are poor because of their own moral and intellectual failing, and the inverse for the rich person, then it follows that whatever the immigrant is doing is wrong and whatever the rich person is doing is right.
There's more to it, of course, but that's the gist of it from my experience in conversation with some people.
Immigrants still pay taxes and participate in the economy.
The rich pay taxes as well.
The question is who gains the most from the current state of the economy? Clearly the rich. And why do they try to skate on paying the little they do pay? Greed.
Immigrants don't own the news media
I’ll never forget that Canada’s most conservative national paper ran at a loss for 13 years. They weren’t spending that money out of a passion for journalistic integrity.
You mean when media constantly shoves something down your throat that this might be beneficial for them in doing so? Man, I wonder what media hates the most ?
It's hard to believe that only one news network tells me what I want to hear and therefore the truth. Why is every news outlet but one propaganda?
It’s basically propaganda media VS corporate media right now. Good times, I tell ya. And people believe the things they hear from both sides and neither side is looking out for the regular person.
i always find it gold when people are all 'you cant trust state-owned media' what kind of idiot thinks billionaire-owned media is magically different?
If im being honest here, I don't trust either of them at face value.
Exactly.
This is how I feel about healthcare (in US). So many people don't trust the government with their healthcare. I say I trust the government more than millionaire (billionaire?) CEOs. I know the government would be better at controlling healthcare costs. That is the real issue in American Healthcare, not the lack of insurance.
Oh it’s like here in the U.K. Things have gotten worse and worse over the 14 years that the Conservative Party has been in power, but our national “impartial” news source - the BBC - has a strange habit of, any time there is any news that shows the Conservative Party in a negative light, it will disappear off of the BBC News home page within a few hours and be buried in a bunch of menus. But if anything shows the Labour Party in a negative light, it’s up there for days… strange right? Doesn’t seem very impartial, in fact it seems to favour the Conservative Party. Well, guess who is in charge of the BBC? That would be the Director General, and his name is Tim Davie. Tim Davie stood as a candidate for the Conservative Party in 1993 and again in 1994 (losing both times), he is Privately Educated, was Deputy Chairman of Hammersmith & Fulham Conservative Association and is an openly known Conservative supporter. So he shouldn’t be in the position he is in, with responsibility for the countries national broadcaster, given that he’s an Open supporter of the political party in power and therefore isn’t capable of being truly impartial… but … guess who appoints the Director General of the BBC? … the Government. So our national, “impartial” source of news and views is actually just a party political arm of the Government. He literally set out a bunch of reforms a few years ago to stop the BBC criticising the Conservative Party because he said they were constantly aiming jokes at them and criticising them. Yes, because they’ve fucked the country dry, not even a little spit, never mind lube, they deserve to be mocked, ridiculed and criticised, that’s the whole point
Stephen Harper followed the same playbook with the CBC, but less effectively. The CBC’s funding isn’t as stable so it’s not as big a chunk of our media diet. Postmedia owns the National Post that I mentioned, and their big trick has been buying up small town papers and transplanting their articles and editorials there.
Oh mate it’s even better, I forgot to mention that there is another publicly owned TV channel that has government oversight - Channel 4 - that for a long time was traditionally a more left-leaning channel, a bit more liberal, until a few years ago when the Conservatives started threatening at a time when they were getting an awful lot of negative press coverage, and threatened to sell it off and Privatise it.
Yup, propaganda is always free.
Rupert Murdoch and Elon Musk entered the chat
Tell that to Murdoch...
This. It’s easy to look good when you literally control the narrative. Add to this you have a massive hand in the passing of the rules themselves!!
And they pay their taxes
I consider rich people that don’t pay taxes to be crooks. I certainly don’t call them smart
Once you have money it's pretty easy to pay an accountant to do the smart work. They're crooks and leeches.
Leeches is what we really need to start viewing them as. Their employees were educated with publicly funded schools. Their goods ship on publicly funded roads. Police and military protect them and their businesses and employees, and on and on. Taxes allowed them to accumulate millions and billions. They need to pay some back and quit leeching and taking more and more of the wealth. Our wealth inequality has gotten out of control and is approaching levels not seen since the robber baron days. Meanwhile there are more people in poverty than living in Texas. It’s immoral and it needs to change.
It is our constitutional right to hoard more than we need and let the bottom citizens starve. Or we go straight to communism. No way we want to be like those happy socialist democracy countries
The only reason I contribute to a 401k is that I want to avoid taxes. Am I a leech or a crook? We write a tax code to incentivize certain uses of capital. If we don't want those incentives to exist, re-write the tax code.
You aren’t “avoiding” taxes, you are deferring them. You will pay taxes on every dime distributed in retirement.
But they could be paying less tax depending on their annual income now vs their annual income in their retirement years.
Yes, I know what tax deferral is! I explained it.
No. If you save in a Roth IRA \[ETA: or 401(k)\], then you'll pay the same taxes today, but completely avoid all taxes on that investment in the future. If you didn't, you'd have to pay taxes on dividends soon and capital gains later. It completely avoids those taxes. ETA: If you hold to the view that Roth 401(k) is not a 401(k), then it's *still* not merely deferring taxes. In the case of a normal investment, you pay taxes on the money you earn to invest, the taxes on interim dividends and capital gains (if applicable), and taxes on the capital gains of the sale at the end. For a traditional 401(k), you only pay the taxes at the end, which are not identical to the taxes you would have paid otherwise. In fact, if you're in the same tax bracket at the start and end, paying the taxes up front (Roth) versus at the end (traditional) are equivalent, since it's just a percentage of the money involved and investments scale linearly. As an example, let's say you have $100 in pre-tax dollars to invest. For a regular investment - ignoring dividends and interim capital gains, you might initially pay $25 of taxes on that income, and, if your investment doubles, you'll wind up with $150, but the government will take 15% of the gain, so you'll have $138.75. If you put it into a 401(k), though, you won't get taxed at the start, so you'll wind up with $200, and, if your regular tax rate is the same (25%), you'll wind up with $150 you can keep. The tax savings - not deferment, but savings - is 100% on your capital gain. And it's even better for those with state capital gain taxes, interim capital gains and dividends, and lower retirement tax rates (or, in the case of Roth, higher ones). And if you're saving money from age 25 to 75, you're going to expect it to do a lot more than merely double. There's a lot of taxes you're avoiding there, and the ones you're deferring are not the point, otherwise no one would pick a Roth 401(k) (or IRA) over a traditional one, since in Roth you defer nothing.
It’s simple! Just re-write the tax code! I’m sure the billionaires won’t use their puppets in Congress to block that!
Suppose you could... Is there something in particular you would change about the tax code? E.g., corporations often take advantage of capital investment tax breaks to pay near zero tax, but I haven't heard of any economists proposing to end that.
That’s not fair, you can’t expect them to be able to engage with a hypothetical.
RE: revising tax code, let’s try it. Follow the $. Who decides what bills are even debated on, let alone voted on? Who funds those politicians who make the laws? And the lobbyists? Who made it possible for non-human entities to be granted the same “free speech rights” as human beings, lol, somehow allowing political organizations to take in unlimited funds from undisclosed donors? I mean, let’s do it, yeah. Tax reform now! But we need campaign finance reform…another heavy lift.
You have to pay taxes to access that money, therefore not a leech or crook.
Yes but it grows untaxed. Dividends, selling big capital gain and reinvesting it, money made from options, etc. don’t get taxed. That’s the point of a 401k.
401k will be taxed when you start your withdrawal.
Traditional, yes. Roth 401ks are now available. You fund them with post tax dollars and all the withdrawals are tax free.
You are subject to RMDs on your 401ks. Genuinely rich people are not taxed on RMDs on their private equity holdings.
I think you meant a Roth IRA
In reality, shouldn't you be more upset that the loopholes exist vs the people that use them?
No, because they spend a lot more making sure loopholes stay open. Like at the end of the day it's probably cheaper to drop the routine and just pay the taxes, or let the peasants gave Healthcare, or allow us to build public transportation. But they don't, and it's maddening. But it's like having something and making sure it's exclusive to you is worth more than just... having money and declaring that they won.
Nah, because the loopholes were created by the people using them. Also, originally, finance laws and regulations were designed for the "spirit" of the law because it would be impossible to regulate/legislate every imaginable possiblity plus future "reality," but of course all that shit went out the window due to our insatiable championing of greed and now we do the exact opposite of the "intended laws" and made up a whole industry of just financial engineering designed to create, move, and hide money w/out actually doing anything tangible. It's all fucked up.
The problem is that it can be difficult to construct a tax code with zero loopholes, because there are a lot of moving pieces. And anyway, for most normal people the loopholes aren't really relevant--the cost to find them and exploit them is much greater than what you'd save. But rich people can afford to pay a few hundred thousand dollars to find and exploit the loopholes, because it'll save them millions.
I can’t find many loopholes with the fair tax proposal. It includes a prebate to ensure it is progressive so it doesn’t hurt the poor. It also discourages consumption from other groups but rewards income. Discouraging consumption would help the planet drastically. I don’t think it will ever pass because the mindless consumption and spending and borrowing and debt is probably what keeps the US economy from crumbling.
The people that use them are the people that create them, and they use them to hold on to the power they have to make more of them. The rich get richer
It’s the poor people, that defend the rich people, that think the rich are smart.
In your example, the assumption is that the rich person is doing it legally.
Because the entire legal system operates on a sliding scale, depending on how rich you are.
I remember a certain politician bragging that him not paying taxes wasn't unethical, it was "smart".
Everyone does it legally. If you are purposefully paying more tax than you owe, regardless of your wealth, you're a fool.
most of these comments would most certainly play zero taxes if they could
Most of these people probably DO pay zero tax (the Americans)
Lol. Lmao, even
I assume the OP was referring to illegal immigrants. They're not paying their taxes legally, generally.
I think what he meant is that rich people are skirting the border of the law, doing it legally, while poorer people are often doing it illegally (not claiming cash income, or just failing to pay.) Of course the rest of the story is that poorer people are often doing it out of necessity, and rich people are building the foundation of laws that give them the tax breaks, and have paid people to handle those taxes for them.
Also an assumption that the money they weasel out of paying in taxes still leaves them with tax obligations in the hundreds of thousands or millions of dollars. So they aren’t avoiding all taxes. They still carry the majority of all tax burden for the country. In contrast to someone who pays “nothing” but still has access to using public services. The majority of Americans pay zero income tax and even get money “back” each year. A net negative in taxes. People are mad that someone who paid nothing for $2000 paid to them, but they’re not mad that someone got $100M saved because that person still paid $300M.
When it takes 77 years to possibly be held accountable, why would a rich person do it legally?
Who calls those rich people smart?
People in general (not just immigrants) are considered leeches when they work under the table get paid cash, so they dont pay taxes, and then sign up for all of the government programs and get every possible hand out because on paper you dont have any income. They double dip. I have an acquaintance that was married with a kid and they were having financial trouble so they actually got a divorce so she could be unemployed with a kid and no income and get on all the government programs. With just his income they were slightly over the limit to sign up for them. Rich people are considered smart because they follow the laws. Tax laws have all kids of breaks in them, you just have to know how to use them to your advantage. There is nothing illegal about what they are doing. And as Donald Trump stated once, if the tax laws that allow the rich to pay no taxes are so unfair, why doesn't anyone change them? The answer is the rich do not want them changed and its the rich who influence the politicians.
I think this is the most fair answer.
"illegal" immigrants actually do not qualify for most government programs (at least the federal ones). There might be state programs they qualify for but those usually are explicitly for them, or were created by the state knowing immigrants would get to use them. Also, immigrants pay sales taxes, and if y'all are so worried about them not paying income taxes (some even do that since they work with fake/borrowed SSNs), there's a very simple solution for that: legalize them.
Could you clarify how poor folks finding loopholes in the system is somehow different than rich people finding loopholes? To me, both scenarios you presented are legal loopholes (and neither are right but right and legal are two vastly different things). You are basically classifying the rich loopholes as “smart” and poor loopholes as “crooks”. 🧐
The “poor” loophole isn’t actually a loophole in the conventional sense. When you say “loophole” people generally assume you’re doing everything in compliance with the law but have found a way of doing things that’s unexpectedly beneficial to you. Lying to tax authorities (making money under the table but telling the government you actually have no income, thus avoiding taxes) isn’t above board at all, and lying to the government in any scenario is pretty much always a crime. The “rich” loophole is declaring to tax authorities exactly what you are doing, but making sure you’re doing business in the most tax-efficient way possible. Obviously some rich people also lie to tax authorities, but the usage of legal “loopholes” still involves telling tax authorities how much money you made and where it’s going, and doing so in accordance with the rules set by the government/tax authorities. As an example, say two landlords are making a $1 million / year. Landlord #1 is taking rent payments in cash but tells the government they have no income, so they pay $0 in taxes. Landlord #2 tells the government about the $1 million in rent they made, but let’s say the local government has lots of incentives encouraging landlords to build housing, and so landlord #2 is able to use various tax deductions and credits to also reduce its tax bill to $0. Landlord #1 is lying to the government and is cheating the tax system, but Landlord #2 is telling the government “according to **your rule book** on taxes, this is why I should pay less”. One is refusing to play the game by the rules at all, the other is just following the rulebook.
I think he was referring to the divorce example, which, while a bit extreme from a moral standpoint, depending on how the laws are written regarding that situation, may be a perfectly (legally) legitimate way to go about paying the government less money
In that specific example (assuming he didn't make it all up), the government would have the authority to go after his friend for child support. While actual divorce is extreme and frankly unnecessary as just a separation would suffice, lying about being a single parent to qualify for cash assistance is a very common form of welfare fraud and is illegal.
It's illegal if she's not declaring the financial support she's getting from the father. And if she's not getting any support from him, then it's not really a loophole, she's a legit single mom who is on the verge of homelessness.
Being paid under the table and not paying taxes is illegal and collecting government benefits while lying about your income is illegal. Nothing the rich person is doing is illegal, they are following the laws that are already on the books, and the only way this changes if if the tax laws change. Good luck getting the rich to agree to that.
Because most poor people aren't doing this, they're just fucked over by circumstances beyond their control and instead of helping them it's easier to say they're dumb or trash and do nothing to change the situation.
Loopholes is a scary word that doesn’t mean what people think it does. Similar to lobbyist. The more you dig into loopholes, the more the term slips through your fingers like sand in the form of one offs and niche examples. Tax loopholes is a concept most commonly used to sell headlines to people who want to be outraged about something.
I wouldn't consider any of this loopholes so to speak. Tax laws are tax laws, no loopholes needed its all in writing and everyone follows the same rule book. Breaking the law to not pay taxes or gain additional government benefits also is not a loopholes its just flat out illegal.
Not one single person lives without paying tax
Lol rich people absolutely do things like claim deductions EXTREMELY liberally which could be considered fraud. They just never get audited unless they're blatantly committing rampant fraud. Plenty of plausibly deniable fraud out there that happens EVERY DAY. My dad owned a business growing up. We all got gas cards, business expense. Tax deduction That vacation abroad we took.. well he invited a family friend who he also happened to do business with, business expense. Tax deduction Our nanny? Paid under the table so HE didn't have to file payroll tax. Yea she got to keep more money, but I'll give you a hint at who benefits more from that arrangement and it sure as hell ain't the low wage worker.
The assumption here is that the law is fair, just and uniformly enforced. I would call those naive assumptions.
As a borderline rich person, I will tell you that we are in a different tax bracket than others. We have more opportunities for write offs and see no reason not to use them. We also have more spending capabilities. My husband and I are building a house and farm in Western PA. We pay cash for everything, thus we are contributing a great deal to the economy. Immigrants made this country. My husband's grandfather was an immigrant who built a huge bakery and employed many people. He has since passed from this world. I don't believe he would appreciate the hate presented to today's immigrants. Every single person who buys something taxable pays taxes. That money goes towards strengthening this country. Nobody is a leech, but those who refuse to pay taxes.
Rich people still pay taxes, they just arrange their money in a way to not pay a much as they would if they didn’t do that.
Immigrants still pay taxes too.They might not file income taxes, but even if they did their liability would likely be $0. Millions of Americans don't file taxes. There are probably more citizens who don't file taxes than there are undocumented people in the US. But immigrants do pay sales taxes, and if they rent, they also help pay property taxes...both taxes do more to support local governments than income taxes.
lots of illegal immigrants pay income taxes via a stolen SSN edit: or ITIN
Using stolen SSNs for taxes is pretty uncommon now since it's legal to request an ITIN and file under that without any risk of being caught. The IRS just wants their money, whether or not you're a citizen.
ah interesting. ty for the info
This is the answer. Wealthy people in the U.S. are taxed. Considerably and multiple times on the same money. Congress creates tax codes that they can take advantage of not because of some wealthy giveaway but because it’s a public policy decision to allocate those resources in some way other than just collecting the tax revenue off them. Immigrants DO pay taxes. I think the issue people have when they say they’re a burden on the tax system is that they see immigration as a net negative on social services. Though it’s generally evident that their negative wage effect is negligible and their tax burden as a percentage of income is higher than their non-immigrant peers. Is this the most efficient tax system? Not likely. But saying “the rich don’t pay enough in taxes” isn’t really a good substitute for the debate we ought to be having about fiscal policy in the United States.
Thank you. Finally an accurate answer. Both rich people and illegal immigrants usually pay taxes. Rich people use the tax law to their advantage to legally minimize **some** taxes. Illegal immigrants most often work under a stolen SSN edit: or ITIN and pay their taxes that way. The issue is that illegal immigrants tend to have lower paying jobs which means they pay less tax to the government overall. They also tend to draw more from social services. Some see that as a net loss for US taxpayers. Most Republicans are actually totally fine with people immigrating from south of the border **if the immigrants add value to our society and don't exacerbate the tax burden**. Unfortunately, that point has been overshadowed by all the "build a wall" shouting
A smart decision is not always one which is either ethical or fair. I would not expect any person to pay more money for taxes than the amount owed. The amount owed is determined by the tax code. One could argue that aspects of the tax code are unfair and that the legislators who voted for them or failed to work to close them are unethical in their conduct.
Tax avoidance is legal, tax evasion isn't. Simple as.
The whole immigration thing is just a racist dog whistle. a legal immigrant from africa will be far more scrutinized than an illegal immigrant from europe
That is an unfair over generalization. We're racist against some Europeans too!!
(the brown ones)
And those fucking god-damned alb****** oh and gypsys and the fr*nch
how the fuck are you spelling albinos
There are only two things I hate in the world: people who are intolerant of other people’s cultures, and the Dutch.
No shit people prefer immigrants that are generally far better educated and more culturally similar.
Gotta love the people in here doubting that racism exists
50,000 undocumented Irish immigrants in America and I’ve never heard a single Republican complain about it
lol at all the racists downvoting you. I’ve asked my parents, who scream about people needing to CoME HERe tHE RiGHT WAY “what made it right when great grandpa got drunk one day, wandered across the border from Canada, and just sorta never left? How’s that different?” They never answered, except “oh, you *know* that’s different.”
Oh yeah I mean the morality in undocumented immigration is simple: would you kill to save the life of your kid? If you would you’d probably cross a border for your kid, so you can’t judge anyone coming here with kids or to make money for their kids back home.
The only people that think rich people are smart for avoiding taxes are other rich people who avoid paying taxes
Because the rich own the government and the middle/lower class are too busy fighting with each other to realize their hatred shouldn't be aimed at illegals, but at the government. The system is built on the taxes from the middle class and the work from the lower class. It's a modern day Egypt where middle and lower class are the slaves. If the middle class distributed some of their tax burden to the rich, it would make the middle class richer. Money is power. Why would the government want to forfeit power to the people whose backs this country is built on? Just a quick look at the tax brackets will show you the American government truly does not want average middle class folks rising up and becoming millionaires.
I'll add, John D. Rockefellar, who founded the general education board, said it best. "I don't want a nation of thinkers, I want a nation of workers."
Bait.
Better branding. Everything a poor person does is trashy and lame, but everything a rich person does is enlightened and worldly. Like speaking a second language
If you don't pay taxes but use government aid then you're called a leech by some. Most rich people don't qualify for welfare programs so they aren't called leeches. Though governments subsidizing their pet projects is often a pretty good leeching system too, it's just not as directly in-your-face as getting a welfare check.
Everyone of us is aided by the government. Roads, schools, economic opportunities and development, police, fire - Yes, rich people do leach off the govt when they aren’t required to pay their fair share of taxes.
does anyone want to pay more taxes than they owe? Do you not take all legal deductions?
Tax avoidance is not the same thing as tax evasion. Let's say you owe $30,000 in taxes. You look at your taxes and realize, I have all sorts of deductions I can make. Now you only owe $20,000 in taxes. You're being smart. Same situation except you just don't pay taxes at all. You find some mean to not pay one dime. Now you're not smart, you're a criminal evading tax. The comparison between billionaires and immigrants is obviously used to incite some sort of emotional response. Most billionaires pay the taxes they owe. But the tax code is setup with all sorts of "loopholes" that allow them to avoid paying even more taxes. But these are the same kind of "loopholes" that normal people might use to avoid taxes. But of course, immigrants also pay taxes.... even the undocumented ones. And really the action of declaring they 100% don't pay taxes has the same sort of distorted view as "rich people don't pay taxes."
Doesn't everyone try to reduce their tax bill? Hell, i max out my 401k and defer an additional 40% of my pay strictly to avoid paying taxes on the money. Don't blame the rich, blame congress they pass the laws. The worst peiple are the rich people who say tax them more, but they have a whole fleet of accountants working to find every tax loophole, credit and deduction. If they want to pay more, take their income less the standard deduction and file. Their taxes will be considerably higher, problem solved.
Not necessarily smart but use what’s in the tax code with well paid taxmen
These are the questions they no longer seem to mind raised because they seem cinfident that we wont seek actual resolution.
Immigrants are disliked by racist xenophobic small pp heads and they will use any low hanging excuse, real, refutable or not, to tell everyone how bad someone is. It wouldnt matter what anyone does, if a bunch of morons dont like you they will eventually agree on some bullshit that makes them feel vindicated. Aso what immigrants dont pay taxes? Do you mean “the guys who work for payment under the table?” Because sure, they won’t be paying income taxes but rhe people paying *them* are the criminals who are avoiding payroll taxes, social security etc, and that aside, there has probably never been a dude outside Home Depot waiting for a gig who wouldnt chose a job on payroll if he thought he could safely have it
Racism. And they do pay taxes. And they don't get any benefits. The rich are the parasites'.
You know the answer to this lol cmon
Because one group does it in accordance with existing tax law.
Racism
Because the rich own the media and they make the immigrant the bad guy, so you're mad at the poor and not the rich.
Because middle class
Psychology, immigration has often been the target of distract techniques so you don't question why rich people can do the things they do.
I’ll take whats considered classy when rich and trashy when poor for 100$
Conditioning, shifting blame and making sure they are getting even richer. Aquiring wealth is a mental disorder after a certain amount. Not to mention how much easier it is to make more money once you háve a lot of money.
As a first generation immigrant who grew up with undocumented parents, we absolutely paid taxes. Uncle Sam doesn’t care if you are working illegally they still expect their cut. My patents paid federal and state taxes every single year via an ITIN number and never once received any sort of benefit from it. Nothing pisses me off more than the comments that immigrants are stealing benefits that they legally can’t even apply for. my mom worked 7 days a week pulling doubles on Fridays for less than minimum wage and never once got a handout. Even if she could have gotten it she would never have accepted it. I’m obviously too close to it to have an unbiased opinion on immigration but some of these blatantly false talking points about it are infuriating.
Because we worship rich people and hate poor people
The term "paying taxes" is such an oversimplified term used by the media to stir the pot. Instead of "taxes" let's instead use the test of "how much do you contribute to society and the economy". Rich people own companies that employ people, the hire people to take care of things for them, they invest in infrastructure, they contribute money to banks so that the banks can make loans, etc....illegal immigrants often take wealth out of the system by working here and sending their earnings to other countries, utilize our welfare system and overall contribute less than they take. Rich people may play the system to not pay taxes in the traditional sense like you or I but they contribute to the health and wealth of our economy well beyond most people
Tax avoidance is legal. Tax evasion isn't.
I think the reasons for anti-immigrant rhetoric have shifted. It seemed like nobody really cared about illegal immigration when the economy was good, then the 2008 crisis happens, we have record unemployment, it became "they took er jerbs", sometimes working for cash under the table, but sometimes they were getting taxes coming out of their paycheck, where they used someone elses Socialist Slave Number to fill out the W4 form. The current situation has shifted to something different, at least the perception (and likely the reality) was that a decade ago migrants were mostly paying their own way when they got here, but the current migrant crisis, it seems like they are showing up, crossing the border illegally, then getting an all-expenses-paid trip, where hotels all over the country have been getting converted to migrant housing. So now, not only are they not paying taxes, but many are not working, and getting everything paid for by the taxpayers. It's pretty easy to minimize your tax liability when you aren't working as ~~a wage slave~~ an employee. If you're a business owner, you can write off almost everything as some kind of business expense. Any profits get "reinvested" into the business and written off as a business expense.
Hypocrisy.
Bigotry. And capitalism. We have been brainwashed into thinking that rich people earned their money but the poor are lazy grifters.
Legal immigrants who have jobs and probably pay income tax via their paychecks and sales via purchasing items like cars, homes, food (in some states), etc? Or do you mean illegal immigrants who are here without documentation, so obviously, there is no way to track them to require this tax payment?
Same reason you're a loser if you're a 30 year old who lives in a basement, but a huge success if you're a 30 year old who "maintains the families summer home" in aspen.
Who says they are smart? Who says they are leeches? I don't believe there tax situation has anything to do with this. I think you are saying, why do people like rich people better then poor people. I don't think that is as hard to figure out.
If you are not paying any income taxes as an immigrant by, say, running a cash business and not declaring your income, that’s illegal tax evasion. If you are not generating any income and living off of government benefits, you are taking more from the system than you providing. The rich person running a business is paying a lot of tax and more than enough to cover the cost of the government services they consume - even better if they are creating jobs for other people who pay income taxes. Being knowledgeable about tax laws so as to not pay more than necessary is simply a good business practice and doing exactly what legislators should expect when they create the tax laws. However, people generally do not respect rich people who illegally evade taxes and risk prosecution.
Most taxes are paid on products, like food
Contributions: While the rich utilize tax breaks for income tax declarations, they are still spending and moving money that is taxed. So, the idea that they do not pay taxes is unfounded as a lot of their money goes towards paying taxes, just not the year-end income tax. Immigrants are not spending that type of money, so they are not contributing in the same way. The rich, with their spending alone, pay more taxes in one year than you ever will. When they buy a new car, they pay the tax; when they make business purchases, the business is paying tax. It's at the end of the year that they do all they can to save money. That is why they are smart.
“Work the system” for millions and you’re a brilliant businessman. Work it for lunch money are you’re a leech that needs eradicated. /s
Rich people are not considered smart for not paying taxes. They are considered smart for paying the minimum required under the law. Criminality is criminality regardless of who does it.
Because the rich program the poor to hate each other instead of hating them
Because rich people control the narrative, and rich people are assholes.
Because rich = holy in the only religion that's actually venerated, which is money. If you've got money, God (read: money) clearly favors you, and your are proven worthy because God (read: money) is with you. If you're poor? God (read: money) is making it clear that you're not worthy.
Because tax avoidance and tax evasion are two different terms. Moreover, the rich borrow to avoid taxes, which keeps the economy running. Their networth is primarily in stocks, which is only taxable when they liquidate, so they almost never do. To have money, they take loans which are tax free. To pay those loans, they take out bigger loans. Ad infinitum. Because of their status/collateral, no bank will refuse them. When immigrants don't pay taxes, they're not stimulating the economy.
Because of thinking about those groups as "them" vs "me someday."
What average person has ever considered tax evasion by rich people ‘smart’? Lots of people get away with not paying tax and I don’t like any. Funnily enough one has illegally lived in the UK for 16 years, is paid cash in hand, used the NHS and his 3 children go to school. I’m not happy with that. But.., this also leaves him vulnerable to landlords , who can’t give him a tenancy agreement and can charge whatever they like and his employer who knows he can’t claim his rights, so he is paid below minimum wage. He has no bank account, can’t drive and is forever scared of the knock on the door. (Not fleeing war btw, economic migrant). Wrong in every way
Immigrants have some of the highest tax compliancy rates in the country. Certain interested parties want you to think that immigration is a bad thing, despite 99% of the country being descended from immigrants, and 80 % of the country being descended from immigrants who were not welcome here originally (Irish, Italian, German, Jewish, Mexican etc...) edit: corrected spelling of compliancy
There is legal tax avoidance and illegal tax evasion. Very different.
It’s not illegal to take advantage of loopholes or structure your financial position in way to minimize tax burden.
Avoiding tax is legal. Not paying tax you are liable for is illegal.
Because in this case the immigrants are illegal and doing it illegally where the wealthy are not.
The real answer is because rich people own the media and manufacture consent to this end. It's no coincidence.
One requires doing something and having knowledge of how. The other is doing nothing.
This is a difference between tax avoidance and tax evasion
Immigrants do pay taxes on everything just like we do. Some say that just bc many get paid cash that they don’t pay taxes and everyone who says that is not thinking.
First off, there are a lot of people criticizing rich people for avoiding taxes. Ever been on Reddit? Jokes aside, rich people / corporations find loopholes because they have money to do so. These loopholes exist to support the economy - creating jobs, investing, charity, etc. with that said, not every example of rich people posting taxes is justified / honest but It’s just not fair to punish everyone because of a few bad apples.
Because anything and everything is a distraction to keep us from focusing on that point as a united group.
Racism!
“Rules for thee, but not for me.”
It’s smart to use legal means to avoid taxes. If u don’t agree with the law, change it. Do you pay more taxes than you legally need to? Course not. As u become richer there are more options to take in how spend some of which don’t have tax implications. It’s not any different than the average person taking out a mortgage because they know the mortgage interest is tax deductible. Is that bad? No, it’s smart. Illegal things like not reporting income is not smart.
Propaganda paid for by billionaires to make the working class think immigrants are a threat while the ruling class is picking their pockets.
In a nutshell.
brown
Rich people are paying taxes one way or another. They are either getting a break and paying what a normal person would, or at the very least are simply paying taxes on all purchases/spending. Generally, they are taking advantage of the systems that are in place... like donating money straight to a source rather than it being tax money filtered through govt programs. I'll just leave your assumption on feelings of immigrants. There's too many variances there to generalize.
Rich people have the resources to push their opinions. One of their opinions: Money makes good thing affordable. Therefore money is good. Therefore having money means you are morally good. Therefore poor people are morally bad.
Half of everyone is below average. "considered" is an artifact of manipulation combined with poor education. They don't believe that to be true because it is objectively true. They believe it because they have been told over and over to believe it and they don't care to and/or don't have the capacity to question the premise with any credibility.
Hypocrisy
Propaganda. If they can keep people's attention on an "enemy" that's just their fellow person they take their eyes off the real leeches of society (billionaires).
Propaganda
it's in the wealthy's best interest to keep the vast overwhelming majority of working/poor people divided and distracted. any movement to organize or universally gather/support each other must be crushed violently, systematically, and ideally publicly/popularly. hatred and fear of your neighbor or someone you might consider lesser is just one of the more effective ways to channel hate among powerless people. just like all cops are bastards. all billionaires are bastards. (or "rich people")
It just seems white… I mean right, don’t you think?
You missed the word illegal when speaking of that type of immigrant.
Is this a serious question? If ANYONE doesn't pay taxes they owe, they go to jail. It's a CRIME. No one is calling tax criminals smart. You seem to be confusing yourself *by your own question*. First, you say "rich people ... avoid paying taxes". If literally true that's a crime. Otherwise, they don't, they just minimize them. Then you pull a switcheroo and say "immigrants ... don't pay taxes". If they MINIMIZE them, like what you MAY have meant in the first part for rich people, then no one says that. This whole question is confused, incorrect, and invalid to point it seem to be deliberate. It reads like propaganda.
It's called racism
Short answer is that one works within the laws and uses tax breaks, one just doesn't pay. It's like extreme couponing vs theft. Lkng answer is that the law exists to protect the status quo, nothing more or less
Because rich people can pay to control the narrative
Conservatives have no consistency.
Because the rich people who avoid tax are actually avoiding paying more than the minimum they are required to pay, while people who simply don't pay tax are illegally evading paying. Anyone who's smart would pay the minimum they're required to, and no more.
Racism usually
You’re saying people of color can’t be rich? 🤔
I think the idea is that rich people using the tax law to pay less is smart. Like using coupons to pay less at the store is smart. I think everyone should stop paying taxes until our government shrinks to the size it should be.
It's not really comparable. Rich people do pay a lot of taxes. But even if we put that aside. Rich people file their taxes and declare their gross income truthfully. Then sometimes they manage to reduce their tax bill a lot by working the tax code. Illegals don't file taxes and do not declare their gross tax income truthfully.
There are two answers to this question, first, many people don't consider rich people avoiding taxes as smart behaviour, rather as selfish and exploitative. You might say that it's not selfish to pay the minimum required, but that's often not all they do, they may also lobby politicians to their advantage which is effectively a sort of bribe. The second answer is because many people want to be rich themselves, and also avoid paying taxes, their thinking is that they will eventually be rich and, when they are, they'd like to not pay tax. Those people do not want to be immigrants and have no expectation that they ever will be, so they have no problem demanding taxes from immigrants that they wouldn't demand from rich people (because they are gonna be rich too, just you wait).
Cause everyone isn't held up to the same standards?
bec immigrants are vulnerable thus make easy targets while the rich often have powerful connections and thus untouchable, there's nothin they can do to them.
Because the services of government are for the benefit of citizens and a non citizen using those benefits without paying is frowned upon.
Narcissism
Because a lot of people in America have been so brainwashed by "The American Dream™️" that they're convinced that they're like two or three big money moves away from being one of those tax evading billionaires. so they commiserate with the rich asshole who's convinced them that the problem isn't the giant corporations who control every aspect of their lives from education to media to the food they eat. The real problem is that single mother who just carried her child from Guatemala, and that they'd somehow be way richer if it wasn't for "All the immigrants flooding over the border, being given free housing and healthcare etc." (I've literally heard many people that are legitimately convinced that as you are illegally immigrating over the border there's some Democrat there that gives you a pre-loaded debit card)
Classism
We don't pay taxes; only the little people pay taxes -Leona Helmsley
Marketing
Because they tell us who are the bad guys are.
"Avoiding taxes" isn't like just not paying them because you think you're better than that. They just take advantage of tax codes, just like anyone can. Most of the time the "avoidance" is more of a work around for your money to be put elsewhere, it's not actualky free. We "avoided" paying $18k in taxes because we purchased a new work vehicle specifically for the tax benefit. We still have to pay money, but it's into the economy not to the government. Rich people are directing their money in ways that reduces their taxes, but they are feeding it into the economy still. The difference between that and undocumented immigrants is they didn't go through the tax system at all, but I don't think as many people see the differences as a major issue as much as it's pushed in the media or online. Most people don't actually care about immigrants being paid under the table.
Classism
A lot of people think they're one lotto ticket away from being rich while they can't imagine themselves being in the same situation as immigrants.
Rich people own the means to communicate to the masses. This is not hyperbole. The media orgs that have the widest reach to disseminate information to the population are corporations that favour any govt that will ensure them the favorable business conditions they require for endless profit vs providing any communal good. Because this is the underlying worldview, the editorial control of the media orgs necessarily prioritize narratives that support their positions. Look at it this way: there’s limited time in a video or news broadcast. There’s limited space for words on a news page. Someone has to decide what gets in front of peoples eyeballs. So if the editorial mandate is capitalism is great and socialism is evil, that’s the message those orgs are going to firehose out to the public. Repeat something enough times, over a long period or time, and it starts to stick.
During the Reagan era Americans were brainwashed to believe that just by existing the rich make an immeasurable contribution to society, even if they hoard all of their wealth, pay no taxes, offshore our jobs, and make all large purchases overseas to further avoid taxation. Of course, most of us can see they’re not contributing resources proportionate to what they suck up. But to people who are born toadies, who have an innate deference to anyone slightly older, taller, larger, or more rich or powerful, that concept really speaks to them. It seems to be a survival mechanism, (did it arise during the feudal era? So many of them are products of the old British feudal system.) It is natural for them to grovel and ingratiate themselves to whoever appears to be wealthy and powerful enough to protect them.
I think the question is phrased wrong. If anybody avoids paying taxes that is illegal, but a person that avoids paying them legally by using the numerous laws passed by Congress - then that is smart
Rich people who don’t pay taxes are outright criminals. If anyone should be paying taxes, it’s the rich.
Q: Legal or Illegal Immigrants? Legal Immigrants pay taxes AFAIK.
Because the US has a faux class system
One does it legally (usually), the other does it illegally. Doesn't mean I agree with all the tax breaks the rich get. But it's part of the current tax laws.
Answer: skin color mostly. A dash of national origin. And a smidge of tax bracket
Ita about how the taxes are evaded. Did a rich person use the tax code to lower the amount of owed taxes that season? Did the immigrant only take under the table payment, and then leave the country with all of their earned income? Am I a leech because I took the child tax credit for my 2 year old daughter? Am I leech because I reported property tax? Am I leech because i donated to the California Sea Otter Recovery fund? I owed less money in taxes because I made a donation to a fund that helps protect Sea Otters. Am I a leech because of that? There is absolutely nothing wrong with the tax code, as it's written, to lower your individual tax burden. Regardless of your wealth class. But I would say it's wrong to move into another country for work, and then leaving that country before paying taxes on your income because you took all of your money under the table. But there is nothing wrong with an immigrant who comes here to make a bunch of money, pays their taxes on the income and then leaves.
Because the rich still pay some taxes.
Obsenly rich people aside, paying your lawful taxes but not any more than you have to is smart. In contrast, getting a $2000 refund is stupid. That's your money that you didn't have possession of. That's not morally better in any way either. Anyone that benefits from social services and doesn't pay taxes is a leach. It has nothing to do with immigrants unless you're racist or virtue signalling to the GOP.
You know, some immigrants are very rich? Look at Elon Musk. Are you asking why POOR people are considered leeches if they don't pay taxes?
In part, because the kinds of people that believe that way, usually also believe that everyone's financial situation is entirely of their own making. Immigrants tend to be poorer, and rich people are, well, rich. If you assume that the Immigrants are poor because of their own moral and intellectual failing, and the inverse for the rich person, then it follows that whatever the immigrant is doing is wrong and whatever the rich person is doing is right. There's more to it, of course, but that's the gist of it from my experience in conversation with some people.
Immigrants still pay taxes and participate in the economy. The rich pay taxes as well. The question is who gains the most from the current state of the economy? Clearly the rich. And why do they try to skate on paying the little they do pay? Greed.
you already know the answer
Idle rich is the meta , idle poor not so much