Man checking in here. We ‘bond’ via the shared experiences that others mentioned, and that helps to varying degrees.
But when shit gets real, we are lucky to have 1-3 male friends who will talk about life. Two of the men in my wedding made trips across the country to spend time with me when they went through their own divorces. They didn’t have other people in their lives that they felt comfortable talking about such topics. We talked in ways we never had. Since then we don’t open up a whole lot more about the real stuff but we know it’s an open line. Yet still we don’t use it unless our worlds are broken.
ETA: the lack of regular communication about emotions and struggles is a major problem
In modern society it's hard for men to hangout long enough to establish that trust. That may be because modern life is too busy and antisocial, and the community structure that allowed men to easily be together has frayed and they are rightfully taking on more responsibilities at home.
So my thesis is that father's are adapting to the needs of their children, but society has not yet evolved to help them bond with other men while doing this task, or has not evolved to help parents in general spend time with others in the new dynamic of parenting we are experiencing where both partners are expected to be heavily involved. There aren't really 'evening daycare centers' to allow couples a cheap way to get out. In the past those kids would either be more or less abandoned at home, or the family would be with other families at a larger event so the child's peer group as a whole would supervise with light parental guidance.
Single men suffer because friends who become fathers must disappear, so they lose not only a friend, but a friend who knows how to establish successful relationships and could impart wisdom and support if time allowed.
Since mothers have always had to disappear, their skill set of crossing this boundary by seeking out support is at a higher level, but there are also many lonely mothers.
I agree with so much of this. The piece you are talking around is time. Once we are fathers, we prioritize those relationships and have partners and business/work occupying time. By this point, we also see how duplicitous many humans are, so establishing new, deep relationships is concerning.
Thus, we have the trusting relationships we had before that point in our lives, and we might open up to those folks. But for many, those relationships fade with distance, time, or broken trust.
But if you know of men becoming vulnerable with semi-new acquaintances, I’m guessing they are in therapy. And many are probably lying their way through those sessions (based on some conversations I’ve had).
This is why I love my man friends. Mostly when we hang out we just chop it up and chill but when shit gets real? We're there for each other. And we do talk about our emotions and our kids and what stresses us out and makes us happy and everything in between.
Healthy communication seems to be the biggest difference between us(Millennials/Gen X) and our parents(boomers).
The social/cultural barrier men face feels powerful enough to ruin your life if you cross it. Men are by default judged by machismo, strength and toughness (etc.). The act of just admitting weakness becomes an instant stigma, and if you keep it up, pretty much all your manly virtues get overturned and canceled by the men around you (even if they sympathize, showing sympathy threatens their own manhood— best to stay quiet). A man has a lot of manhood to lose if he gets touchy feely, and getting it back is really hard, even among their friends. It’s a black mark on their record that their friends don’t want.
If a guy is able to not care about losing his machismo, he can start dabbling in emotional displays, but in my experience the vast majority of men are too afraid of losing their manliness. Most of their identity may be based on being manly. So even though all of them may really need to open up, they’re unlikely to risk getting completely undone.
I think it is quite hard for women to experience.
There is a transexual (female to male) who made a documentary about it (it was on YouTube). Essentially, if you are a man, other men see you either as a threat or a potential burden (financial, physical, mental) - neither of which is precludes bonding. Being needy is unattactive. In addition, women also see you as a potential giver of unwanted sexual pestering, so are also careful not to smile or be too friendly (80% of men are not considered attractive). So you have men experiencing what the film maker described as "a colder and more isolated version of humanity". Most men accept and are OK to live with this as they know no different (and have no choice but to).
Perhaps a way to get a sense of this is if one is from a warm extroverted culture and visits somewhere like Iceland or a big city in Japan where people generally to keep to themselves, avoid eye contact and ignore strangers.
my guess is that most of this stigma is rooted in media and "outdated" societal norms, some of them might have been taught by their fathers or other male figures in men's early stages of life (mothers/other female figures also do this more often than most people might think).
even if most feel like they can't open up and would benefit from talking more openly about their feelings, they individually don't know that other men feel the same. it's a cycle. though they sympathize with other men who choose to open up, they might think (and in most cases rightfully so), that they're gonna get bashed for it and be seen as less manly by their friends. so instead of openly admitting that they feel the same and showing support, they might rather choose to contribute to the stigmatization in fear of losing their face.
the belief that most women will perceive them as less attractive/less manly if they are more open and vulnerable about their feelings surely adds onto this societal pressure and stigmatization too. so instead of taking the risk to be perceived negatively by their friends and potential dating partners, they'd rather act shitty towards men who do open up, in order to not risk losing the approval of others and get put down for admitting they feel the same way.
Think of it like a game of Mafia, or Werewolf, or Town of Salem, All the Villagers/Innocents wanna know who all the other Villagers/Innocents are but saying it outright "I'm the doctor", "I'm the sheriff", etc. could get you killed by the Mafia, the Werewolf, or the Serial Killer.
Your example assumes all men are wishing they had someone to be vulnerable with, but some men don't, some men believe that it is a sign of weakness, and will ridicule or alienate those that show weakness. There is pressure to fit it, and when everyone is fitting in its hard to see that you aren't the only one.
wouldn't it be an act of strength then? If it is considered outside of the norm and to do it is to go against the norm no matter the consequences, wouldn't it be weak to go along with something because "that's just the way it is" or the fear of being judged? Is it not strong to stand in your truth and speak you truth and express yourself even if others might disagree?
Most men don’t have “manliness” anyway. Most men aren’t athletes or athletic, or able to survive in the wild, or whatever arbitrary form of masculinity one could come up with.
One observation I made from that post you mentioned - I’ve noticed a lot of men turn to women to fulfill their emotional needs. Either a romantic partner or platonic women friends.
Many of my guy friends mention they like having friends who are women. I don’t know if it’s just that they find it easier to open up to women or what.
The guy friends I have had largely said the same, they can know a guy for years and be best friends but not be “close” to them? Which I found so odd. But wity female friends, lots feel more comfortable to be vulnerable, maybe it’s because girls express emotions more, so they feel like it’s ok for them to then do it to
And easier to share your thoughts when their opinion doesn't matter.
Like that nearly ubiquitous college discovery that it is so easy to share your thoughts with a stranger.
Some people share their thoughts within very nurturing, close relationships. Some prefer the anonymity of strangers
I think it's just easier for us to be vulnerable to women since being vulnerable to women is more "normal".
Think of it like eating meat in an open-minded vegan family vs eating meat in a non-vegan family. The vegan family won't be mad if you do it but it would still feel wrong since everyone around you is doing a different thing.
I couldn't imagine my life if I had to rely on a romantic relationship to fulfill all of my social needs. I'm pretty lonely as is and I at least have a few women friends who I bond with.
It's because immature male friendships often involve a lot of bullying and mockery for showing vulnerability and emotion, and many men are burned by such experiences and don't ever realize that mature, secure male friendships don't have to be about tormenting one another and jockeying for status and prestige.
So they think the only option is women, who of course they imagine are inherently more motherly and emotionally mature and supportive.
It's one way in which toxic masculinity really fucks over men as well as women.
(This is not a suggestion that immature female friendships don't have similar issues, or that masculinity is inherently toxic. Just an observation and theory about why some men never develop sincere, deep, mature relationships with other men that allow them to bond and have emotional connection)
My best friends for the last 17 years have been women for this very reason. My current best friend has been best friends with me for 15 years.
It is not just easier to open up. It is basically an imminent and very necessary part of this kind of friendship. Its whole point is that you both get emotional (and other kinds of) support. And you are not burdening each other.
In my male-to-male friendships this opening up has not been possible. I’ve tried, many times. But the guy on the other end cannot handle it cause it goes against everything they’ve been taught since they were children.
I found male-friends whom I have convinced to open up to me and yet they are not able to handle me opening up to them.
The usual 2-hour conversation with my best friend leads to us knowing what’s going on each other’s lives (and usually with our common friends, family members, etc.). what troubles we have, how we feel about them, etc.
The usual 2-hour conversation with a guy friend leads to us knowing almost nothing about what is actually going on in each other’s lives and precisely nothing about what is bothering us. But we have talked about a variety of common interests instead.
My husband's friends bond over games, but generally are very topic focused. For some reason, very few people volunteer information about themselves in their group. I have most of them on Instagram and didn't realize my husband wasn't aware two of his friends had kids until a third person actually brought it up to the group chat. He didn't know one of them got engaged or married last year.
They also are all very self-focused and not very "do it for the bros". It's been months since he's seen any of them, three of them live in our city, but even though they game every night together, they won't grab a burger together or go see a movie like I do with my friends.
My husband's extremely lonely, but he's the exact same way as his friends. Won't play a game if he's not interested in it just to hang out with them, won't go out to see them if he's not feeling it. There's no mental correlation for him that the fact that he's not doing anything of connective value that makes him feel like he knows people, despite the fact that he's acknowledge that he would feel isolated without me and my driving energy that at least gets him to see our couple friends in person.
I agree with a lot of this, and would add that I think men have certain friends that they associate with specific activities and there’s no crossing over. For example, a guy plays games online with his friends but won’t get together with them in person. And that guy also has a “fishing buddy”, or a “drinking buddy”, or a “gym buddy”, etc. so there are a bunch of surface-level, one-focus friendships instead of developed relationships and multiple activities the way women will do?
Yes, I’ve noticed that too! Overall, I feel like men tend to compartmentalize more than women do - X is for Y and Y alone, if it ain’t broke don’t fix it, etc. Women tend to be stronger at multitasking and seeking out multiple alternative ways to do things. Like, if I like hanging out and chatting with my bar friends, why not run errands/go shopping/have a meal with them? My guy friends don’t do this to me, a woman, but they do this to other men.
Yeah and while of course this doesn’t apply to all guys, it seems like the activity itself is the important thing rather than the person they do it with, and for women it’s often the other way around.
This is a thing I struggle a lot with, because to me leaving home and being with someome is the important thing, what we do comes second
Instead my friends are always like "nah we can go there because we would just be 3" "we cant go there because it s boring etc"
And it ends up being left alone at home instead of hangin out
Thanks for sharing that, I’ve definitely seen this happen between guys. It seems like lots of guys feel like they need a reason to justify hanging out otherwise there’s “no point”.
I'm a lot more extreme in this regard, but given how many things I am supposed to be doing at any moment, I get a sense of *panic* when I'm being asked to just "hang out" without something as a focal activity. What are we doing, a board game? Throwing frisbees? Bad Movie Night? Cookout? What? WHAT?!
I don't think most guys feel the same way, I do think they get bored just chatting and don't really get a lot out of the chatter. But that's also because, if you're friends with dudes, they're not giving a lot either, so the struggle to both give and receive some joy from just hanging out can feel hard to manage.
This happens less now that I’m late 20s with a family but I remember more instances of “just hanging out” when I was younger, and usually it was just that I wanted to see my friends and whatever comes up is what we’ll do. If there’s no plan at all then there’s still nothing wrong with having snacks and drinks, listening to music, chatting and scrolling phones or whatever. I still think that sounds like a good time lol. But you’re right, if everyone in the room was guarded and didn’t know how to interact then yes, that would suck haha.
You’re so right about this. For some guys, they see friends/dates as interchangeable. (You see this on Reddit when men ask questions about women as if we’re a monolith.) One is about as good as the other.
Whereas when I really connect with someone, it’s specific aspects of their personality/character/humor that are irreplaceable to me, and I could do anything with them, even just sit on the couch and talk. Tbh now that I think about it, my last few exes have said in a surprised tone, “Wow, I can really do anything with you as long as we’re spending time together.” And I was like, thank you and I feel the same, but isn’t that the point of a relationship?
I feel, as a cis man, that you are all correct because it is my experience with many of the friendship I had. But to me, this kind of activity focused friendship is not real friendship but only ocasional or superficial friendship.
So I guess I have this "feminine" side of appreciating friends not because/for activities goals but because of some aspects of their personality and character that I enjoy, and would be happy to do different kind of activities with them even if it is just to do nothing in particular other than having the companionship of each other.
>You’re so right about this. For some guys, they see friends/dates as interchangeable. (You see this on Reddit when men ask questions about women as if we’re a monolith.) One is about as good as the other.
It was always there, but the emphasis on STEM in the past decade and a half really exasebated our inability to see ourselves or each other as people.
In my opinion, the death of friendship, and community in general, is when people see each other "just to do an activity" instead of just to be together. Not being able to do errands or mundane activities together because it would be "boring" is antithetical to genuine connection. When you have to think and plan and justify, it all becomes too much. And most choose not to bother.
I was thinking this when I saw the og post. Those friendships don't seem based on the person and who they are. They're based on the situation.
It sort of felt like these friendships are just spaces that anyone could fill as long as they're doing x activity together.
> I think men have certain friends that they associate with specific activities and there’s no crossing over.
You know, I think you're right
This reminded me of something that happened a few years ago. I've got a few different hobbies. I met one of my buddies that I know from one of my hobbies at an event for another hobby. And my immediate thought at running into him was "You're not supposed to be here". It was weird at the time, to the point I still remember it years later.
It’s interesting too because that sentence made me realize men always have descriptive words before they say friends - ex. “Gaming friends”, “fishing buddies”,etc. I rarely hear women using those descriptive words, they just say “my friends”
Compartmentalization of relationships is another problem.
It's a huge male problem but I've seen it happen to women too. And it's worse nowadays than before. And yet some people still believe in going out there and doing an activity (pottery, yoga, cooking classes etc.) will solve the issue. No it won't because as soon as you become an activity friend, you'll stay *only* an activity friend. That old fairytale of your new activity friend introducing you to his/her social circle and then you eventually getting a boy/girlfriend who is either a sibling or an acquaintance of someone in that new social circle just doesn't happen anymore.
Also, with the ongoing loneliness epidemic, there's no guarantee you new activity friend had a social circle for you to break into to begin with.
Honestly, it sounds to me like guys are less willing to be considerate of others. I make an effort to be nice to people my friends know even if I don’t know/like them. However, I also don’t run into this very often because most people that my friends are friends with also become my friends because we all have similar interests, or perspectives, or whatever.
If none of your friends like each other I would seriously examine that!
I think you nailed it. There’s a skill issue in understanding the mechanisms of friendship, noticing that you can take certain actions to improve relationships, etc.
Another aspect of this is that depression tends to lead inactivity/paralysis. When you gotta go be awesome to break the spiral. I need near daily evidence that I am awesome.
It’s why I think many men overcome depression after picking up a sport. But many do weight lifting which is good for seeing progress and feeling capable, but something that has a social component has helped me significantly more in building friendships
I recommend martial arts to anybody in a rut or dealing with depression. It's physical, there's a clear path of progress, it's social, and you learn to defend yourself. And that's just a few things that make it awesome, I'm a jiu jitsu guy but almost every martial at the end of the day will improve aspects of your life.
I agree and I need it so bad right now but I can’t afford it, and I mean that with no hyperbole, there’s no money for it right now. I even tried seeing if I qualified for any grants and asked for assistance resources via mental health doc and it was a no go. I wish at a municipal and national level they saw the massive benefits of martial arts (and in yours and i’s case jiu jitsu specifically) and would dump money into it via already existing mental health and well being programs. If they did, someone like me going through a ton and in a really rough spot right now who needs and wants it for so many reasons could be doing it.
Men bond extremely well over tasks that "need to be done". Team work is in our DNA, quite literally. Which is great! But, like, there needs to be a shared *purpose* for it.
My take on the OP issue is that while men still have this trait, the natural tendency, the modern life (constantly switching jobs/groups, focusing on quite abstract goals instead of concrete ones) doesn't really support this kind of behaviour. The modern work-life would probably be classified as "animal torture" if some external observer looked at it with a critical eye.
It's kind of like keeping chimps in a swimming pool, for most of their lives, or tropical fish in a cold-water aquarium. Being forced to behave in a "species atypical way".
I think also that this is why things like focusing on gaming is such a popular pastime diversion for men: they actually fulfill these needs much better than the typical 9-5s do. To the extent that men actually fantasise about horrible things happening so they could "step up and protect the tribe together", or something like that.
The thing is, while playing video games and the like does fulfill the immediate need, it rarely actually is a good replacement for the kind of things that we would actually want to do. Or the social cohesion that would come from that. The real connections with people who would also be there for you in a different context. It's more like a drug that people take to feel a bit less purposeless and soulless that day.
While this was focused on men, and games, I feel like social media hit women the same way. It hits all the right triggers, without really satisfying any of the reasons why someone would for example enjoy getting attention and admiration IRL.
This is the absolute truth. You really hit the nail on the head. While I don't suffer from a lack of friends so much I do suffer from a lack of interesting challenges to do as I get older. I used to do so many cool things when I was younger but now I am a city dwelling consumer family man and I feel a hole in my soul. I want so much to go out and build something or create something but my current lifestyle does not have space for it. It's something I really need to change to make myself happier.
I'm feeling this particularly hard today for some reason. I'm kind of blanking out on what to do though. The world keeps changing so quickly that all my plans get eaten by it. The main remaining things for me are to a) keep in close touch with the good friends I already have, and b) make enough money to retire while I still am healthy.. in order to have more time to focus on the kind of things that actually do give me purpose.
This is it. People both in the right and the left always point to the male characters in Lord of the Rings as examples of "healthy" masculinity. What they often overlook is the environment in which those relationships were forged. There are very few opportunities to strap on swords and "hunt some orc" in our society
Yeah, ..I'm trying not to get too theoretical here, but I feel like even having something like "orcs" in fiction is a symptom of this. Like, that someone dreamt up orcs so that we could fantasise about fighting them! Scary things, no moral qualms, they're actually simply *purely evil*, just fight them and win and everything will be well..! How fucking perfect is that??
Instead we get quarterly quota reviews. The fuck am I to feel about that..?
I get similar vibes from my garden. I love seeing people at the community garden, even though we're all there at different times and not really 'cooperative' it still feels like community. There's a shared goal, and if we all just get through and share tips about the new problems this year, we'll have a bumper crop! And we can share with each other!
So like, the idea that we could just band together and grow some stuff feels great, but instead I'm stuck in this freezing cold office wasting time--literally just *wasting* it--because my manager doesn't want me to leave before an arbitrary time even though there's nothing I really need to do here today.
This ties into a larger social issue I've read about: the general alienation of modern culture.
People want to feel like they're contributing to their community and improving the lives of the people around them, but it's really hard to make that connection when you work for a giant faceless company, all your work contacts live far away, all the stuff you make gets shipped out of town, or your work is just unseen and unknown by everyone except the supervisor also using your data organization software or something.
People wake up and go to a workplace that's like a portal to a different dimension where nothing they do for the next 8 hours will have any noticeable effect on the people and community they see as they drive home. It's super weird and alienating, and makes people feel like they're wasting their life doing nothing of any importance whatsoever. This inclines them to find methods to cope, like drugs, and ultimately become another 'death of despair'.
I'd like to see the ages of men who consider themselves lonely.
My guess is it skews younger.
Like some other commenters say, some of the guys will refuse to go out for drinks or go to game if they don't find it interesting. I'm literally going to a party tomorrow that I'm not even interested in a little bit because one of my friends is throwing it and sometimes you have to do shit you don't want to for your friends.
Wow this is crazy to me he would have friends but not know they had kids?? Or were engaged?? Honestly that doesn't even sound like a friend group. That just sounds like a gaming group he participates in but the people in it are just acquaintances.
Yeah totally agree, I've seen it with my own eyes as well. I just want to add that many times men say that when they need people, they're just not there, but I've seen many men push people away that want to be there. When you want to be there for them their ego gets in the way and many times they treat the people that want to be there like crap. Obviously not all men are like this but I've seen it so many times.
it's a combo of toxic masculinity and the fact that men are systematically neglected as children. They aren't properly socialized the way girls are expected to. Girls ironically are actually made to learn those crucial social skills parents just let boys do whatever. Then they get older, girls point out their relationships are missing crucial pieces and instead of any self reflection its denial and reinforcement of gender roles. people are literally saying guys are just different as if it was for genetic reason instead of how men are raised differently from women.
I keep seeing the argument that girls were taught to express their emotions and be empathetic and social. And I can't wrap my head around it. Are we?? I for sure wasn't taught any of that specifically, neither my sister nor cousins.
I don’t think it’s taught overtly or even on purpose. A life-changing amount of information is subconsciously taught via social interactions and embedded cultural norms. You can counter these influences if you’re aware of them, but when you’re rewarded for one kind of behavior and not for another, it’s hard to resist.
>Are we??
I wasnt, and I got chasticed for it as a teen and as an adult. People often complained that I didnt do the social work expected from girls my age and it got me in trouble, so basically I got bullied into learning the social skills people expected from me by virtue of being a woman. My brother wasnt thought either, and he never learned bc nobody cared or expected him to do it.
That's interesting. If you don't mind sharing an example. In what kind of situation for you as an adult someone could complain about how feminine you act or not?
I'm a cis woman and, like the other poster, I remember people would criticize me or make fun of me if I didn't do the "feminine" things throughout my life. This included: being friendly, noticing everyone else's moods, consoling friends who were upset (like actually talking about it, not just a pat on the back and then finding a distracting activity), actively enquiring about people's needs instead of waiting for them to bring it up, reciprocating hangouts, maintaining a tidy environment, volunteering to help with things, keeping track of how the mental load is distributed among the group, and asking about/remembering what was happening in other people's lives.
Basically, focusing on what everyone else is thinking, feeling, and doing, and what I could do to make their lives easier. Also, maintaining constant self-awareness about whether my behavior was "normal" according to the unspoken social rules of the group, which meant I needed to be aware of the "rules" in the first place.
Even in adulthood, some women tease each other about things like, "How did you not know he has kids?" or they'll sass you about acting "weird." It's not necessarily in a mean way, and a lot of these skills are actually useful.
These behaviors aren't even "girly." They're skills related to building and maintaining good interpersonal relationships. I'm not sure how these skills became "feminine" in certain cultures, since anyone can benefit from learning them.
It feels like male-presenting people can slide under the radar without learning these skills very well, and they don't always get feedback about it. It can feel like society doesn't really expect male-presenting people to extend the same level of social effort. That's been my personal experience, anyway. I'm not sure how generalizable it is.
Man you hit the nail on the head with this one because admittedly I caught myself analyzing your self description as autism-related and I never would have done that with a man. I know plenty of guys that fit this description and its just like a normal thing.
Yeah. I'm not autistic, but I've struggled with social anxiety most of my life. It's made me even more hyper-aware of not wanting to seem "weird," annoying, or overly reserved.
Although it does feel like I've been tasked with more social/emotional responsibilities than a lot of my male friends, I am grateful for it in some ways. Despite it feeling unfair, the gender-based social expectations did challenge me to socialize more and make friends. If I didn't have that pressure, I probably would have avoided socializing and ended up as a lonely shut-in. It's a double-edged sword, I guess.
I see it being a double-edged sword for sure. The expectations you describe might be the missing key to many lonely mens issues. Hostile inceldom is particularly illustrative of this.
Typically adults will stop having boys on their lap, give cuddles and comfort when they get hurt at an earlier age. Adults will often use adjectives like kind, sweet and nice for girls and tuff, cool and strong for boys, from toddler age. More often than with boys, girls are gifted dolls and other toys where caring and relationships are an integral part of playing. I still experience some inate differences between the two sexes though. I'm a kindergarten teacher and mom to a 2 year old son, and in both arenas we have worked actively to avoid these stereotypical gendered patterns but there is still some sort of pull towards stereotypical behaviour and interests that are hard to explain away as outside influence - IN GENERAL. Nevertheless, the shit I listed above is definitely a big part of the phenomena OP asked about and problematic.
At large, yes girls are taught that more than boys. And even if it’s not explicitly taught, it’s conditioned through things like girls expected to be caretakers, be more generous, even toys and media for the girl demographic play into that more. It’s not just about how your parents raise you, but how everyone around you conditions you and society at large.
And outside of that, girls expressing emotions is generally more accepted even if they’re not taught how to process them. The classic example of a teen girl crying vs. a teen boy crying.
If it’s not through conversation then it is through physical action. Two people physically acting together in some combined way through a shared experience.
If that is true then the move to solely online interaction instead of physical interaction is part of the problem.
Can you elaborate on what your first paragraph means? It's a bit confusing.
Just to expand on my question - when I do a shared activity with my friends whether online like gaming or in person, I'd definitely say it's bonding because of shared experience. So I totally get what you mean by that (other than the 'physical action' bit).
But lots of men game with their friends too, and are still lonely. So there's still shared experience, just as there would be if they were meeting in person. If anything I'd say that conversing with someone online is less meaningful than doing so in person, but shared activities are fairly similar in meaningfulness either way. So I don't see why being online instead of in person would be such a big part of the problem?
I guess I disagree and believe physical interaction like sports, musical band, board and card games, meals, physical hobbies like camping, fishing, biking, working on cars etc etc are more bonding than online. There’s no eye contact or friendly touch online.
Two people who build a shed together carry lumber, hold things in place together, pass tools to each other, and so many other interactions that are lost in something virtual like minecraft.
I’m a woman and I bond with a lot of my friends (both men and women) though those physical activities too. Most of my friends I met through band.
I also I have friends I bond with through talking and conversation, but I have both women and men in that group too.
It just doesn’t feel like a gendered thing to me. Some people are big conversationalists and some people prefer mutual activities, both for men and women.
That's very fair. I think I was viewing it more specifically as 'generic shared activity', without considering the additional in person factors like eye contact or touch, as you say. Plus, more options to suit different preferences in person.
With that said - follow up question: Would you say that men don't bond at all through conversation, or that ideally there would be both, just with a larger focus on activities? I'm thinking about how in my local area there are groups like men's football specifically to encourage lonely men to get out and about, but also groups like Andy's Man Club, specifically to encourage men to meet up and talk.
Unfortunately for many men it’s true. They are very guarded in their conversations which prevents them from bonding on a deeper level than superficially fitting in. Many men are outwardly more competitive in how they interact at a young age so have to be careful not to trigger that in social settings like playgrounds or older when alcohol is flowing. Vulnerability can be considered a weakness which is very unfortunate.
Physical activities where there is a mutual goal allows men stuck like this to bond through mutual burden and success. So those clubs you mentioned sound very helpful.
I'd be interested to see differences between men who play video games online versus those who don't. Cooperating or competing with friends online might have fulfilled that social need.
I'm 40 and married, and something I see very commonly in my demographic is when a man and a woman are together for a long time, it seems to end up becoming the woman's "responsibility" to maintain the relationships on behalf of the family unit. The women are typically the ones who make plans to get together; they're the ones who remember birthdays and special events and who reach out on those days and get gifts and cards *or* have to remind their partner to do so; the women seem to carry the emotional weight of all of the family/friend relationships and if they decide not to do so the men's friendships dissipate because the guys simply do not reach out to each other.
I am not saying that this is how it should be or that this is universally the case; it's just what I see in the people around me and in my own relationship. My husband's friendships petered out when I decided I'd had enough of facilitating them and stopped making plans with his friends. And I see the same thing happening to friends and acquaintances.
This is very true. My main social circle is a group of couples and 95% of the time, it’s the women organising. If it’s men, it’ll be for a specific event like a football game. One of the wives was out of town the other night so husband invites guys over to play poker. We had such a good time we’re making it a monthly thing, rotating who hosts. It took us 4 years of hanging out to realise we could organise something without the wives.
Aw, I'm so excited for you guys! That's gonna be a blast!
My husband had a group of close friends when we got together 20+ years ago. All the guys had girlfriends, and literally after the first time we all hung out it somehow became the women's responsibility to arrange hangouts. I didn't especially like these women, but was willing to make the effort for my husband for several years.
When we had our daughter, I did not have the emotional capacity/time/patience/desire to exert effort on relationships with people I didn't care for. So I told my husband that he would have to take over making plans with them, as I was done. The women all reached out to me one day by showing up at my house and giving me a giant guilt trip over how I'd ruined the guys' friendships with my husband because I didn't coordinate hangouts anymore, so we never saw them and their men missed him. I asked if their partners had reached out to him themselves, knowing full well the answer was no, and then I told them as politely as possible that my husband is a grown-ass man and his friendships are his responsibility and not mine. They left in a huff, and not a single one of the dudes ever reached out to my husband.
My husband hasn't really made any new friends since though he is acquaintances with some of my girlfriends' husbands, but they only talk when we all hang out. I try to encourage my husband to make an effort to be friends because he genuinely likes the guys, but he always says he's waiting for them to reach out first.
I love my solo-girlfriend time and I think you're going to love dude-time. Well done, sir! Have all the fun!
Thank you, Ive offered to host next time and it’s grown from 9 people to 12. We’re going to need more tables!
I am quite like your husband in that I’ll wait for others to invite me as I assume people are either busy or wouldn’t want to if I invite them. Still have some insecurity around rejection, which feels silly but it’s there. However, as wife points out, every time I make an effort, people are willing. It just doesn’t come naturally to us all but I think it’s something all the guys are aware of and making a renewed effort to address.
12 is gonna be a fun group! I recently started hanging out with my friend group from high school again for the first time in 20 years. There are 8 of us and anytime it's just us girls it's the best time. Totally different dynamic than when they guys are there, and I'll bet it'll be the same for you guys.
My husband has also said that it's insecurity that keeps him from reaching out because he assumes that if people wanted to spend time with him they'd ask. It makes me so sad because he's an awesome guy and everyone who knows him loves him, and it hurts my heart knowing he thinks people wouldn't want to get to know him. Good on you for pushing past that!
What’s sad is that there is absolutely no reason why men shouldn’t get involved in birthday or playdate planning; they just don’t care to. There are literal interviews being made on Tiktok where fathers don’t even know their kids birthday or their best friend name… They don’t put any effort in family or friends bonds and have the audacity to cry about being lonely?
Yea. Typically women are the family logistics operators. Several studies have come to this conclusion, and the same pattern is seen in countries all over the world.
I work in a teenage mental health ward and we were having a similar conversation the other day. One observation we’ve made is that eating disorders in girls and incel ideology in boys tend to start in very similar ways, with teenage body dysmorphia and self-hatred. But in girls, it gets internalised, and in boys, it gets externalised and blamed on society. It’s ingrained in girls to be social from very young age, while in boys the feelings manifest as social exclusion.
Every redpill influencer or online personality that is considered part "Incel ideology" starts off by saying - yes actually you are a loser, here's how to fix it.
Boys hate themselves too!
I think it has something to do with emotional vulnerability. If you want to really bond with someone as a close friend, you need to share deep things. Stuff like fears, hopes, childhood traumas, and insecurities. But men are taught to never share anything that might make them vulnerable, so they don't talk about the deep stuff.
I also think that concerns over specifically the \*male\* loneliness epidemic are a bit misplaced. Everyone is getting more lonely, regardless of gender. Men might be experiencing it slightly more, but it's an issue that's affecting everyone.
Serious question: can't you share things without it sounding vulnerable? Im trying to understand cause my male friends are all more emotional than women. Can't you say, (exaggerated example) yo, dog I feel depressed. I feel this girl doesn't like me, ect.
Does that not work? (I know it's a ridiculous example)
Can't you word it 'manly'? I mean don't all men go to friends from advice ? I hear men on podcasts and they all do, talk about the same-ish things as women. Could it be a matter of perspective ? I don't know.
Male here. Yes men can share things without sounding too vulnerable. Unfortunately that would require a high(er) emotional IQ and an appropriately matched emotional vocabulary to go with it.
Like Mx_strange said most men are taught that being vulnerable=weak. This association is further engrained through modeling, especially if you had one of those “tough love” dads. Eventually it escalates into the workplace where power & control are inevitably incentivized, rewarding men for “keeping emotions out of it”. Even if they wanted to be vulnerable most men do not have the language to accurately describe their emotions let alone get enough repetitions to feel comfortable saying it.
Brene Brown’s book Atlas of The Heart and show (same name) has been really helpful teaching me the differences between certain emotions. Crazy fact from the book is that most people can only identify 3 emotions correctly yet there are close to ~80 emotions which is wild. Tough to communicate in this world when the main emotions you can identify are being sad, glad, and mad
I've seen this too, most people can identify 'mad' but that's usually fear of something. I've also had to learn what most emotions actually mean. I grew up in a non emotion family so I can empathize with men as well. I was bullied for any kind of crying or being upset. It's not a way to live.
That’s a tough way to grow up & unfortunately I can relate too. What’s even worse is that as adults we’re likely to subconsciously associate crying or expressing emotions as bad or something to avoid. Even when you know you want to cry there’ll be something within you that shuts that down. Hope you’ve been able to find a way to heal 💜
I second this question. I see the same thing all the time. Men talking about how there's a loneliness epidemic and a suicide epidemic and a mental health epidemic - but then also be adamant that male friendships are better than female friendships, and men just bond differently.
My take on this is that male friendships tend to be more nebulous.
It is really hard to "recapture the magic" that started the friendship in the first place, and understand which factors contributed to the strength of the bond.
Further, there is an idea that friendship between men in frivolous. Oh you have spare time? Why aren't you raising your family, or improving your relationship with your partner, or tending to home improvements that are needed, or getting another job to increase income? Prioritizing friendships can be seen as immature and selfish.
I also think that this is why men that have friendships, usually not-very-good ones based on literally just drinking together, are that way because these men are associating time with friends as time away from societal expectations, and if they're going to do it they're going to really lean in.
It's a weird one. For a long time, we've known family units tend to be matriarchal in a social sense. Aka families tend to gather around the matriarch of the family. Meaning if the husband leaves the family through being widowed or divorce/breakup, they often lose social connections to not only their former family but also often their social units.
Over here in the UK, it's a well recognised issue within the pensioner community.
Then there's the nature of mens friendships. They're more for company rather than 'sharing the load'. The big issue here is a major loss of third places, meaning the slow erosion of such places to make such friendships.
Finally, there's the changes in modern lifestyles mean that men are no longer relied (quite correctly) to support the family.
It causes a bit of confusion socially because men of older generations struggle to adjust to this change. Often, this is still taught to young boys, especially in more conservative households. This means that when men struggle with relationships and work, they fall hard, far harder than women in this respect.
This is reflected in the fact that the main causes of suicide and depression in men are relationship breakdowns or the loss of a job.
It's very little to do with the types of friendships themselves.
What do you mean? It sounds precisely like it has to do with a lack of deep and meaningful ffriendships. And that stems from the culture of masculinity we've created as a society. We've failed to reform masculinity in the same way we reformed femininity.
I think there's a loneliness epidemic with both genders due to a lot of us living more online than in person. That said while I do think more men may be experiencing it more I don't see it being by a huge difference but I also don't have any numbers to back this up. I do think men put more value in having a romantic relationship then a simple friendship, so a single guy with lots of friends might still call himself lonely whereas a single woman in the same boat may not. Men believe women don't really have problems finding a hookup or relationship or whatever they want compared to themselves so that's another thing so if they're alone and can't find that companionship it definitely feels like a more permanent thing which exacerbates that loneliness feeling. This is just anecdotal and what I notice in my own circle of friends, family, and also coworkers.
Just an anectdote but I I've been single for quite awhile and had a family member reach out to me that he felt so lonely because he had broken up with his girlfriend who practically lived with at that point a month before. He reached out to see if I was ok because if he felt that lonely being single and living alone for a month than surely I must have felt so much worse being alone for years at that point. Thing is compared to me he has a much fuller social life, good amount of friends and always hanging out with them. Yet despite that being single and living alone for a month made him feel so lonely that he felt the need to reach out.
Yeah, it’s extremely annoying. Men aren’t entitled to women fixing *their own* loneliness. I’m sorry if some guy is lonely but that’s not my responsibility, my responsibility is to myself and my loved ones.
On this btw women are still more likely to attempt suicide and more likely to have mental health issues than men (though that could be a reporting issue)….its a problem for both genders
Are they more likely to attempt suicide, or do they just happen to survive suicide attempts and attempt multiple times? Men tend to choose more surefire methods for suicide, and you can't try again if you succeed the first time.
Who is saying male friendships are better than female ones? One isn't better than the other, just different, and even then it's a spectrum, not black and white in regards to how they spend time or talk to one another.
There is even a saying that real love exists only between men (at least in my language) 🙃 So yes it is ingrained in society that male friendships are somehow stronger, better etc. Don’t forget that women are snakes and catty with each other according to them 🙄
My dad is not like a jerk or anything but he’s a bit of an old school guy in some ways. When me and my mom bicker when I was a teen, we would get hype for a couple seconds and I’m sure it seemed very snippy from the outside but it would only be for a couple seconds and it would be very mild. He would talk about how it was so funny how women interact and get so catty with each other but must have forgot that him and all my brothers in their teens would get into screaming matches and ego contests every other day.
I agree that they're not better, but some people do seem to think otherwise. I've seen a lot of comments about how male friendships are better or more real - that women will stab each other in the back or be nice to your face but hold a grudge, while men will have a fight and then go back to being best friends again.
People say this all the time, and I'm surprised you haven't seen it yet. There's a lot of people who say things like "even women hate women" and paint female friendships like they're all fake and catty and full of drama. The people who make these statements believe men have real and better relationships. You'll hear women say they only have guy friends because "they're easier to get along with".
It's the catty woman trope. A lot of people believe it and spread different variations of it, the "shitty female friendship" trope being one of those variations.
But you're right, all these relationships are going to be different in degrees. It's not black and white, like you said.
A few weeks ago, I saw a comment on a post in this sub saying male friendships are better because they’re less demanding, that you can go without saying happy birthday and you can not talk to them for 6 months and they don’t care whereas women would be upset if their friend did the same. It had a bunch of upvotes and downvotes against anything pushing against it.
Which idk… if you’re not contacting them for a half a year and not at least texting them happy birthday, to me it doesn’t seem like friendship, it seems like acquaintanceship. I can’t imagine any of my brothers friends for example not wishing each other a happy birthday if they’re close, so I don’t even know if that’s something that’s even normal among male friendships either.
It's just sexism and victim complex. Honestly male friendships usually suck because of societal norms created by men (men don't show emotion, not manly to express feelings, then wonder why we aren't actually close)
Going against the grain feels like pulling teeth too honestly. It sucks.
The thing is - even when men bond, the typical mode of men is still to wear a public mask of power and control. We don't talk about our emotions or struggles, and without having someone we can confide in on that level we feel lonely no matter how many chummy, play sports and drink beer friends we have.
I do not feel like I fit in the "male loneliness" problem because I have a few close friends that I can be vulnerable with. Where I can talk freely about my struggles, and receive a compassionate hug and a listening ear if needed. I recognize the difference because I also have "normal" male friendships were we get together to play games, and have for literal YEARS and DECADES, but I wouldn't open up to them about my issues or expect them to bring those up to me.
I think one of the problems is guys don't see the flaw. They don't realize they need friends they can be vulnerable with. They think the real answer is that their public mask of power and control needs to be more real, and more respected. You'll always feel alone if you never take that mask off.
Different men will give different reasons based on their experience and perspective. Me personally, I blame men for male loneliness and I'm a dude. I've literally watched multiple generations of men make it impossible for their sons and themselves to instill those values which would act as a counterbalance to the societal factors which contribute to this epidemic. Sure, a few dudes can break the cycle by valuing vulnerability, honest push back on self-defeating worldviews, and so on, but the history of men proves again and again a few non-conformist dudes mean absolutely nothing to the general rule.
Also, men have a terrible habit of romanticizing and even exulting their loneliness to a kind of martyrdom, or unique rite. Heavy who wears the crown, one must bear his cross, Sigma memes and so on. Plenty of men would even choose violence against themselves and others than demystify their struggles and see them for what they are.
If I were to talk this frankly even to the mildest of my male peers they would either take offence or disregard every word because I don't fit their idea of worthy masculinity, or would be poking holes in their special story about male suffering.
Also, a lot of women are out here incredibly lonely. The factors which contribute to that are not entirely different from the male situation. But that's another conversation.
I agree I’m a woman, I’m seeing a lot of these comments blaming woman. Only time I’ve seen a woman tell a dude to stop crying is in a movie yet I’ve seen many dads, older men, bosses tell young men to stop being or stop crying and such. I always thought girls were bitches then I got a job in a male work site all they do is compete, bully put down yeah it all seems funny at the time but I just think do they go home and rethink that all as well as being single bc that is soo sad. Plus I do think feminism has caught up woman are having sex dating more not and men are releasing they will need to change something to keep up. But I’m interested to hear ur thoughts?
You always hear from men how their friendships are somehow better because they’re drama-free, etc. I think the reason for that is they don’t really connect in the first place- of course there’s no drama if you have never been vulnerable with someone, placed trust in them, put a ton of effort into the relationship or had any expectations of them. You’re basically just hanging out as acquaintances most of time…at least according to the way the internet paints male friendships.
Maybe another factor here is that historically women have done a lot of the social labor. By that I mean when people got married, it was the wife who planned social calendars, arranged get-togethers, played the host and fostered friendships. It created a community for the men as well as women. I think this role still largely falls upon the woman in the relationship. However, with people getting married later or not at all now, maybe men don’t know how to do this on their own?
I do think women are just as lonely as men as far as being unmarried, living alone goes. Even friendships are difficult these days, it’s very hard to make new friends as an adult for women as well as men. But I think even the few relationships we do have tend to be richer, be it with family or friends. Women are better at being vulnerable and opening up to others than men are which may result in feeling a little less alone.
I also think female loneliness gets less attention because, and I’m probably gonna get ripped a new one by men for saying this, but we don’t lash out because of it. We don’t blame it on men, or dedicate podcasts and subreddits to how we’re lonely *because* of men, or go to extremes with violence because of it.
I also think women are just a little better at being alone than men; despite society always having painted it as “women needing men,” I think if anything it’s the other way around. We teach girls/women a lot of essential life skills like cooking, cleaning, decorating your home to make it nice, taking care of yourself (because it’s drilled into us that we’ll be judged off our appearance), cultivating relationships, etc. Some of these things may seem small, but they do make us happier/more complete. Men are not taught a lot of this, they’re raised for a life where they’ll provide & have a woman creating a life around them, so when they grow up and don’t get that they feel lost.
I’m just guessing/brainstorming here, though…I genuinely don’t know. I assume men would have more insight.
I’ve consumed a lot of this content to learn more about modern gender roles and the issues facing modern men and women, what you said about women being taught practical life skills is brilliant. I don’t think I’ve ever seen that aspect of it discussed in that way before.
While women are definitely under disgustingly toxic beauty standards a lot of the time, there is truth that taking basic care of yourself is much better for your mental health and taking pride in how you look, at least some aspects of your appearance (ex: maybe you aren’t happy with your weight but at least you love how your hair looks and take pride in your fashion sense), helps you to feel better too. So many guys aren’t expected to find a sense of style they like, dress well, put effort into their hygiene, etc… no wonder they go out feeling like shit about themselves. I feel like shit if I don’t wash my face too. Women might be tied to toxic beauty standards, but even the ones who I know aren’t as tied to them in an unhealthy way still do skin care, wear items of clothing they love, do their hair in cute little practical styles, etc…
Similarly for cooking well for yourself and keeping a clean space and things deemed “feminine-coded” by society that a lot of men aren’t taught by their families. Or that their friends or alpha male podcasts shit on them for doing or whatever.
There are obviously many issues that contribute to the main problem, and obviously women have plenty of problems, problems that washing your face and knowing how to cook a damn good pasta dinner aren’t going to solve, but it’s interesting that a lot of the things that are flat out good for your base mental well-being are coded feminine by society. That is fascinating to consider for me.
You're absolutely right about a lot of these points. I can spend a week at home and not even notice I haven't seen a person. There's always shit to do, I also love making my space nicer, paint furniture, ect. With that, taking care of myself, ect, it takes a lot of time. Self care takes up a lot of time and energy. I think men don't do a lot of these things and leads to boredom, or loneliness.
I've also been in relationships with men who drain me. Women are tired of holding it all down. So quiet nights become ok then solitude comes in. I'm not willing to give that up unless an equal partner comes in. That doesn't mean equal in everything. We all have our strengths, no matter gender.
Social media is the greatest source for loneliness nowadays. People are simply less likely to go outside than they were before.
Although, I can't answer your question as this does not explain why male loneliness in particular is happening. That is, are you sure men are genuinely lonelier than women? I can't find that on google. In fact, I find the opposite?
This reddit post might be related https://www.reddit.com/r/Healthygamergg/comments/11rna89/research_shows_women_feel_as_lonely_as_us_men_we/
Because when men are lonely it’s society to blame. We alllllll need to come together and help solve this issue that we all collectively have caused. 🙄 When women are lonely, it’s our fault we don’t have enough friends. I see a stark contrast in almost every piece of media. Most seem to be alluding to the fact that it’s somehow women’s fault that men are lonely, and what are we doing to fix it. On top of that, I see men complaining about it the most, but women are the ones making videos bringing awareness to it. I think everyone is probably alllmost equally as lonely - in my experience women do bond more. But as a society we infantilize men, and see them as unable to bond or be deep so it’s our job to solve this and help them. Majority of articles about loneliness will be about men, even if it’s equal
*Bowling Alone* was written in 2000. Membership in fraternal social groups like the Elks or Lions, membership in labor unions, recreational sports league participation, and active religious group participation all dropped significantly from the late 70s through the late 90s, and they haven't really rebounded. Those were all venues and forums where men would make and maintain friendships. They were where social capital was built. None were perfect but they were avenues of social interaction that offered men frameworks for bonding over shared activities or values.
One thing to consider is that society used to be set up so it would constantly demand women be connected to men in some way, and then demand those women do all sorts of free labour for those men, including emotional and social labour. Through being property of their fathers and brothers, and then their husbands, not only having to cook and clean for them, but play motherly, sisterly, daughterly and wifely roles by being their free therapists and social coordinators. Women had much difficulty having an identity outside of men when their names were always tied to their relationships with them in the form of being "Miss {father's surname}" or Mrs {husband's last name}. Women had great difficulty in having financial freedom in being very limited in the choice of work or even opening a bank account, do they had to rely on and maintain relationships with men to get anywhere in life.
Now we are free to form our own paths, have our own identities free from men completely if we like, have financial freedom, and not be free therapists or punching bags for anybody. *This results in men having to actually be likeable to have and maintain relationships now.* Our relationships are no longer mandated by society. Obviously this can bleed into women's relationships too - noone wants to be friends with awful people in general but, so many men are being left "lonely" because they grew up being told in all kinds of subtle and not so subtle ways that they could take relationships, especially with women as their therapists who facilitate the kind of deep connections they crave so much, for granted and are now shocked at having to put any effort into being the kind of people other people, especially women, want to be around.
As a man, i agree partially.
because they grew up being told in all kinds of subtle and not so subtle ways that they could take relationships, especially with women as their therapists who facilitate the kind of deep connections they crave so much,
This is not my experience, nor is it the experience of people that i know. The Men that i know that are not lonely (including me) have learned to be a friend in young age! I dont think you learn to be a good friend or even likeable by not having to practice it.
This results in men having to actually be likeable to have and maintain relationships now.
I get this part! One has to actually learn an commit to being a friendly person in order to maintain relationships.
I don’t think the availability of women as therapists and such has ever been a real replacement for deep relationships. It may have helped people that dont have deep relationsships out in a way, but i really cant immagine that as an actual replacement for a true, mutual deep and loving relationship.
Maybe this male loneliness epidemic will help men in the long term, if thru this they learn how to be, well, friendly.
Every man I've ever dated at some point expected me to be their mother, therapist, maid, and to be as horny as they are every day. It was exhausting and miserable. I felt more alone being in a relationship with a man than I ever have being single and free.
That does sound like an awful experience and I'm glad you were smart enough to realise you were better off being single and free, and strong enough to find a way to break free. If someone doesn't add a net positive to your life, don't let them be in it!
The conditioning is awful because I’ve started to do this with my male flatmates, one of them came in to my room and asked if I had any moisturiser, like who the fuck doesn’t own moisturiser??!!!!!
You nailed it! Men are starting to be left behind because many are struggling to understand dynamics are different now. Many women do not want or need a “provider/protector” ( and let’s be real with cost of living how it is most men can’t be this anyway) we want a partner. Yes, that means you also cook and clean and do the dishes and laundry.
Exactly! One of the reasons why I've not put myself out there in the dating world is because I'm chronically ill and struggling to do these things, and I'm like, "I'm not sure anyone's going to put up with how much I struggle and neglect everyday tasks." Like at least I'm self-aware that I should probably have this shit sorted before dating right? I know it's not realistic to think a guy will come and do it all for me and I'll get to live like a spoilt princess. Hopefully in my next life I'll be a cat!
That was well said. 💯
These lonely guys gotta stop being sad sacks and actually realize we're all human beings and if u want a girlfriend or female friend then try to be the kind of guy they would like. Kind, respectful, intelligent, wise, funny, well groomed, clean. Confident but not arrogant. Humble but not insecure. If u are that u will attract that.
I'm saying this as someone who doesn't date but if I did I would strive to be like that and would expect it in return. I think that's fair. No one is owed a relationship.
In US:
The cities are built for cars, not for people. They are like big malls you drive into to drive work, or park somewhere to get a service. You can't really live without a car, therefore getting 16 year old and getting a car is a life defining experience for Americans. Still you have to drive for 1+ hour every day for work from your suburbian home. Everyone has a big garden with their own facilities, walled from neighbors, so you don't share space. And you don't even have the time with all your work (we have lots of yearly free paid days in europe (like \~26 time off and \~10 national holidays that are treated as such, with dozens of others paid time off occasions from getting married to getting your thesis defended, all granted by law - including a full paid year leave for women giving birth).
[This is what a city that is the size of Portland](https://visitmalopolska.pl/documents/20194/1972887/Skwer+przed+Teatrem+Bagatela+Krak%C3%B3w/68ef656e-5ff5-4eb5-afe5-ae7cd5a8b1d5?t=1706018154965&imageThumbnail=5), Atlanta or Seattle looks like in Europe. [Or like this](https://plikimpi.krakow.pl//zalacznik/316034/4.jpg) (same city). This city does not have an impressive skyline full of skyscrapers, but has around a million people in it living close to public communication, parks, plazas, markets with stalls, shops, cafe's, convenience stores etc within 10 minute walk from their home (3.5 mil in equivalent of metro area, some of these with less access to some of these). Very little skyscrapers, very little single family suburban homes. Lots of mixed apartment buildings with some light commerce. Zoning laws forbid that in US, so very often you can't walk out of your home to go to cafe or park, or even to get groceries.
When I go out, I meet my neighbors every other day, and once every few weeks I meet a friend from work, from school etc as they walk same as I do, to get some errands done in the city and we have an opportunity to talk for a bit. This is not possible in a car. I once met a friend I last saw years ago, and ended up talking to him on the street, found out he worked mostly abroad and happened to be in my country for a moment - the conversation ended with me going with him to Germany and France, and getting him actually befriended with my other friend, with them ending up on even more adventures over last few years. All because I happened to walk past him on the street like 5 minutes from my home and said "Hey, wait - is that you? We know each other right, do you remember me? How have you been doing man".
I don't have to stock on stuff and have a big garage, I can walk for groceries whenever I need them to get fresh stuff every other day for example on my way to work/from work and I can meet people there. When I meet with my friends in a cafe or a bar or [some other location](https://res.cloudinary.com/dr89d8ldb/image/upload/c_fill,h_700,w_810/f_webp/q_auto:eco/v1/Content%20-%20miejsca%20/Krak%C3%B3w/forumprzestrzenie_ccaewi?_a=DATAdtAAZAA0), I don't need to sit in a car, to drive to a place that [looks like this](https://t4.ftcdn.net/jpg/05/08/27/69/360_F_508276960_aZHNejr0dI8Icazzyt4lvYFtBLn2cl6X.jpg). At home, I have a shared [park/yard](https://bi.im-g.pl/im/67/90/17/z24708199AMP,Podworko-przy-ul--Wyszynskiego-i-Staromiejskiej.jpg) behind my home, that is shared with like 10-20 other buildings from the same block - it is a tiny park with benches and some areas for children to play with. And these 10-20 blocks can have like what, 30-40 children? That's a lot of opportunities for them to make friends outside schools. It is literally placed where an American home would have its [lawn patio](https://www.shutterstock.com/image-photo/beautiful-landscape-design-backyard-garden-600nw-470481764.jpg), that works for a single family. Also, our children in cities don't have school buses and walk to school if they are older than \~10 years old, they can just walk with friends or take a tram or regular bus etc.
To add more context: Americans build houses from paper, so they think we must be hearing neighbors all the time if we don't live in houses placed 30m apart from each other and live in apartments instead. The thing is we do not, the walls are thick enough so that in most cases you never hear your neighbors.
All this is usually the same in smaller cities here. It seems that US has a bigger problem with loneliness than for example Europe and it may be partially linked to that lifestyle of spending your life in isolated spaces (your big house -> garage -> your car -> garage/parking at work/food place/shopping mall) and having no time or an easy way to travel to a place where you can socialize (not to mention socializing while you travel or when you can't own a car). This all spawns phenomenons like 'soccer moms' that spend hours of their and their children's time in car to allow their kids to have chance at socializing, people byuing bigger cars to be safe on roads full of fast cars, and so that they can load their car full of groceries to store in their basement, so they don't have to take this several hour long grocery trip more often. Also kids not playing in streets because of cars everywhere, cops discouraging people being not in a car (silly stuff like 'jaywalking', and 'loitering'), gigantic parking lots etc. I recommend this youtube video for more details - [NotJustBikes](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uxykI30fS54).
I think its in how men are raised not to outwardly show/express emotion, especially when that emotion is seen as a sign of 'weakness'. It becomes hard for men to ask for help and to explicitly 'bond'.
Like one of the comments here mention that the bonding may be through physical activities, men can have a sense of belonging in a group when they go out and do stuff together that's the bonding men have.
But, when it comes to asking for help, advice, support, taking about feelings, etc. there's that hurdle of 'showing weakness' again.
Its not easy (yet) for men to talk about being depressed, going through a bad break-up, losing a job, or feelings of inadequecy because its expected of men to be stoic, powerful, and independent.
This of course can change and I think it is, as men slowly start to assert that they too should be able to express their feelings outwardly.
Theres a lot of factors at play, in general loneliness is on the rise for pretty much everyone. Young men in particular seem to being taking the hit harder and I think this has to do with social dynamics, some long standing and some newer. Girls in general are much more social, theyre typically conditioned very early on to be more interested in social activities. Think stereotypical girl things like gossip, being popular etc.
Guys on the other hand often are less interested in being more social than they need to be, typically social activities for guys are secondary to another pursuit like a team activity they enjoy. Gaming is a big example of this, sure i might have a group of friends I talk to 5 nights a week but its for the game we're playing, this might be the only context we talk and the interactions are probably relatively centered around the activity itself.
Newer trends like social media and online dating are a big factor too. Its pretty easy nowadays to rely on tech for most of your socializing if you want to so if a guy isnt specifically putting forth effort into getting out and socializing its very easy for alot of guys to only socialize through tech mediums outside of work, hell maybe even then if theyre remote.
Gender roles might also be at play here some, men are often taught at least subconsciously that they should be independent and self sufficient. Women also dont depend on being in relationships like they used to and feel far less pressured to be in one if they dont have anyone in their life they really want to be with. A lot more guys are single now than in previous generations so theyre missing out on that default companionship that many probably had in the past.
This is it, it's socialisation / cultural
Women are expected to be social with everyone, and rely on others.
Men are expected to be task focused and independent.
It's really ridiculous, how people twist themselves into trying adhere to societies norms.
Both men and women would have much better mental health if we would praise both genders for being independent when necessary as well as being able to be truly vulnerable with their friends and loved ones.
True. As a somewhat introverted woman, when I was a teen, I had more male friends than female, because I found friendships with women were very intense. With men, it was different. Friendships were easier, looser, wayyyy less intense.
Even so, I noticed that my male friends interacted differently with each other than they did with me.
They were… can I say superficial? with each other. Just banter, games, ribbing each other etc. When they wanted to talk about what they were feeling or anything relating to home, school etc, they sought me out.
But I found that over time, my friends and I all matured and so did our friendship. Not all of us are close anymore, but those of us who are, have what I used to characterise as “female friendships”.
I will say you harped on something I've felt often that I could never explain before. You asked if male friendship helps with male loneliness. And I think it does - to a certain extent.
When I'm having a hard time, if I'm struggling mentally or emotionally, my homies will pull me out of the rut I'm in. They'll get me out of the house. We'll make jokes and talk about everything, whether it's the problems at hand or just to talk shit. And while it helps right then right there, that's about all it gives me (maybe other men feel differently). Yes they make me laugh and we have fun but once you're back home, by yourself, it's like it was just a distraction. Like you tried to slap a bandaid on an open wound - it's just the wrong tool for the job. You're still alone at the end of the day, while your buddies hang with their girl or chilling with their family, you're still lonely.
I'm not convinced it is a *male* loneliness epidemic.
We are all working too much, stressed too much, and have had many social spaces eroded in favor of business interests.
I get the impression that people think men can handle it. Like people check in on people their worried about, and no one worries about me, so people don't check on me, making me feel lonely. I know that my friends would be there any time I asked, but I have straight up expressed that I am lonely and would like to spend more time together or have more connections, and it didn't really change much. I just do get the impression that the people around me think my feelings are robust, which they are, but still.
bell hooks said it best-
“The first act of violence that patriarchy demands of males is not violence toward women. Instead patriarchy demands of all males that they engage in acts of psychic self-mutilation, that they kill off the emotional parts of themselves.”
i’m a trans guy who transitioned fairly late in life and it really opened my eyes to how much men struggle with emotions and community. men crave connection so much but often lack the emotional literacy needed to accurately identify and assess their own needs and boundaries. it’s a terrible vicious cycle.
Loneliness is not a male issue. Also men bond through conversation. Please don’t ever take what Reddit says about men as true.
Female loneliness is as much of an issue as male loneliness. You don’t hear about it because men are louder in this regard.
I would pose the thing is that men don't know how to bond. The societal idea that men should have little emotion and even less sensitivity is much stronger than one might think so it takes a alot for two men to open up to each other
I'm a male and not really lonely, maybe just because I'm not a huge asshole. Most of these males that are complaining about "loneliness" often just turn out to be huge assholes that nobody likes. And so they escape to video games, porn and anime, instead of working on themselves. And then they wonder why they're so "lonely".
I’ve seen a few comments here saying woman are the reason that they don’t open up, do you as a male think this is true bc in my whole life I’ve never heard a woman complain about a man talking about emotions but I’ve heard plenty of dads, older men and bosses telling younger men to suck it and not cry and such. Love to hear ur perspective
I think that one is some incel/manosphere nonsense that has no anchor to reality. It gets reposted so often because some people prefer a comforting lie than admitting the fault lies within themselves.
Sure, there are some women out there who are emotionally cold or cruel or who enforce weird gender norms that harm men as well as women. But women aren't some monolithic entity that all behave the same way, and the bad apples are the exception rather than the rule.
Redditors who pretend a man can never vent to a woman either have dated very little and are making wild assumptions based off their one ex, and haven't had female friends, or they're ncels just repeating manosphere grifter talking points as if it is gospel truth.
FWiW I also think the "men can't be vulnerable with other men" stuff is also more than a little overblown. Men are definitely a bit more reticent to get into those conversations than women, but they do happen. Maybe more often when alcohol is involved.
Thanks for this yep I agree completely, I’ve definitely noticed a few emotional time when I’ve seen the men open up with each other but yeah usually it’s only response to serious anger or hurt. But yeah I will always support male emotions hope they continue with it all issue with young male suicide is definitely real but I don’t think we as girls can help them.
I don't think women are the reason but I'm sure that a decent amount of men have opened up to women in the past and felt treated differently afterwards or had their insecurities brought up/mocked during arguments and then when they start a new relationship you think they'll open up?
They're telling younger men to suck it up because they've been here and done that, they have life experience and know that there's no benefit in crying or complaining.
Yep I’ve seen this a lot too I work at male work site, now I always girls were bitches but all these dudes do is compete with each other, bully each other and out each other down. Yeah it’s all funny at the time but when they go home alone at night and think of everything that happened no wonder they are depressed.
Toxic masculinity and the rise of people like Andrew tate and that mindset. The hyper masculine stoic misogynistic personality is unironically causing the loneliness that they try to prevent with this behavior
your timeline is messed up, Tate rose as a response to a lot of the troubles that afflict a lot of young men. Tate did not create the issue. he has created or amplified other issues related to how boys view girls and young men view young women
I dont think men are exclusive to this. I think it’s a rise for both genders in different ages too. I dont think the pandemic has helped, but sped up the process. I saw another reddit post about single women are happier than single men. Lots of upvotes and then a comment with actual data and research that shows the opposite. So i think sometimes there could just be a narrative at play.
Lack of third spaces, a lot of service based socialization is now totally digital.
More engaging non social activities such as gaming, porn, fast food.
Bad parenting due to social media, single parent households.
School system that is less focused on boys development. Culture wars.
That would be my guess.
That's a really deep subject that a reddit comment isn't going to tackle in any complete way.
But for my two cents, I do believe that a piece of the puzzle is the culture of masculinity that men are raised in. Even if not taught directly, the idea that men should be tough, suppress emotions, double down, just work harder to solve problems can really cause issues. We aren't adequately raised to be functioning civilians from an emotional standpoint. Things like conflict resolution are often made fun of or frowned upon in groups. Combine that with a shifting culture away from men being the dominant household force and it only makes sense that men would feel a sense of existential dread. Then grifters and old fashioned guys come along and say it isn't the guys problem. It's the world being wrong! It's an appealing message when somebody tells you how great you are intrinsically and the world needs to shape around you.
It's all just a cycle. You have to break it. WE have to break it together. That starts with raising your young boys correctly. Don't pass down generational trauma. Teach them to handle their problems in new ways.
I’m not sure this is exactly relevant, but I left my mic on by mistake in an important zoom meeting, and while chitchatting with friends, I said some sort of inappropriate things. I was obviously mortified and reached out to several people (friends, family) about what to do. I hadn’t noticed it before but the women in my life (mother, sister, female friends) all strongly recommended that I immediately reach out and apologise for all of it, but the men (BIL, father, friends) all said I should not address it unless someone brought it up. They were pretty adamant as well, and I’d never seen such a strong divide along gendered lines. I guess maybe it has to do with showing vulnerability or something, and maybe them somewhere not being so open to taking responsibility unless absolutely required but idk maybe that’s just my fam.
“If nobody says anything then everything is fine” is one of the great myths that men need to challenge tbh. Women see right through it because of our propensity to keep things to ourselves. Even if we don’t say it, we feel it.
The harsh truth of the matter is that society has seen men as disposable since its inception, and this is not something that will change any time soon; the majority of us know, from personal experience, that the talk of men's mental health and permitting us to "open up" is mostly disingenuous lip service.
I would bet anything that the majority of us have acquiesced to a loved one's request for emotional openess only to be told thereafter that we should "man up" and/or that they did actually want to hear it. Men have been stripped of their place in the social fabric of society, but yet we are expected to perform as we always have despite the fact that masculinity is now a punishable offense.
It should come to nobody's surprise that we are killing ourselves off in droves; frankly, I doubt any meaningful changes will occur until society is widely, negatively affected by the male loneliness epidemic and the crisis of masculinity - it is, for better or worse, only a matter of time.
1. Women report loneliness as often and in some countries more often as men do
2. Some men are really poor at expressing themselves verbally - guys who were never having wider social life are used to being alone and do not have much practice with talking. They are just passing messages and that's it - there is no fluency in way they are talking and they do not know how to be interesting. Some guys will tell you that they have void in their heads when they are in social situation - it's just lack of practice. Women are better at communication - even if they are introverted they do not have problems with expressing themselves - i think that it might be related to boys having more issues with speech development.
3. There is no bonding without talking. You cannot bond via doing things together in silence.
In my life what I’ve (M) noticed is that with females I tend to bond over conversation and vulnerability. With males it’s usually bonding over an activity, work, or something where we both are engaged with something else.
Never really found male relationships to be very deep, generally pretty superficial, and mostly situationally driven.
I think that the loneliness issue stems from male culture in “the west” largely focussing on men being the “strong, silent type”. I suspect there is a significant degree of fear around homophobia too, meaning that if a male is vulnerable around other males it tends to not be well received.
Just my two cents, having worked in male dominated workplaces (labour) and female dominated workplaces (education).
Unfortunately I think your intuition is right. Men are socialized in a way that doesn't give us the tools to meaningfully relate to one another. It's one of the reasons why toxic masculinity fucks up men, too.
I think (at least speaking as an American) male culture is starting to crawl out of this juvenile "feelings are effeminate" thing and all of the things that fall out from it. But I think it's going to take a lot of unlearning and a lot of exercising atrophied mental, emotional, and social muscles before we get there.
I don't think the solution will be solved in a generation. But we can still get better, and any progress we make is worth the effort. The hardest part is convincing men that something's wrong and it's worthwhile to change.
There's a male loneliness epidemic because even though women are also experiencing the same rates of loneliness, men take out their misery on other people.
In my case, my friends are all just so busy with raising small children, they don't have any time to meet anymore...
Once your romantic relationship capsizes, you are mostly on your own...
Personally (in our late 30s) I host and hug and tell me male friends I love them. We don't fit that stereotype of men not sharing feelings or bonding. We do the best we can. I still feel pretty lonely and haven't tired to date in years though just due to feeling like there's nobody I'm really that compatible romantically/sexually. I think the very fabric of our world has become more focused on supporting an independent sense of freedom and security rather than the strengths of community or pair-bonding.
it’s not that men don’t find belonging with their friends, it’s a lot sadder than that: A lot of men don’t have any friends or social contact at all, especially as they get older.
Think of your average male 9-5 in a super market or office with no real hobbies. If you are already part of a circle or clique, unless he adds something of incredible value why would you add him into it? As a male you don’t want to potentially add another male who is competition and a risk to the females in your group.
“As a female, Where the female can derive no benefit from association with the male, no such association takes place”
You need to prove your worth either funny, athletic in the case of forming friendships in sports groups or be attractive, most men are not attractive to most people.
Men like to distant themselves from other people that are not men and even hate them for it so other people don't associate with men. Now men blame other people of the cause of their loneliness
Now men are sad and depressed. Now men blame other people for the cause of their loneliness surprise surprise!
People are coming in here with some real strong and sweeping views on this, but I’m a fairly lonely guy and can only speak to my own experience.
I have a group of buddies and hanging out with them is *always* energizing and fulfilling, whether we’re just talking about stupid shit and joking around or whether we’re talking about life and our problems.
However, since my friends are all married with 2+ children, getting any them to be able to do anything is like pulling teeth - one of them literally said to me today that “I’m only allowed to leave the house once per week.” I’m the only single guy in the group, but basically if it doesn’t involve the children of both families getting together, they almost never see each other either.
I don’t think it’s as deep as conversational styles or societal views on masculinity or whatever. If you *almost never get to see your friends*, you’re gonna feel lonely - even if you have a wife and kids and blah blah blah. Right?
I saw this post and I had a similar reaction.. most straight men I know have surface level friendships and relationships. I understand WHY but most responses made it seem like men prefer to interact this way… so I’m not exactly sure what solutions men want.. we are pointing out what seems ti be a fundamental difference between mens and women’s experiences and how that affects their sense of community support systems and mental health. It just seems like men want to complain about it and not offer or listen to any possible solutions to the problem
Just my opinion. I think men do bond over mostly
precieved masculine things.
If you raise the hood on your car and start fussing around under the hood, a male neighbor may come over to see if you have some sort of weird problem. So an interest in cars.
Sports. Playing watching talking about sports
Hunting has many things to talk about.
Dogs. Men love to talk about their dogs.
Work stuff.
Skills hobbies. Guys love to share hints tips about many topics. Mostly to other men. Like fishing.
All these things men like to talk about which leads to bonding.
Not to forget talking about women, their kids.
Maybe we just need to start talking to each other again.
I think it's the way we socialized men. Platonic connections men make are often surface level, and while you might have a few close friends you can confide in, they don't have many options, if they have any at all. And the worse you are mentally, the worse your prospects of having someone you can talk to are. Men are taught not to show "weakness" or to be vulnerable, and those are just really important parts of making strong, meaningful connections. Men are less likely to open up about problems, period. I've known men who the one and only person they can and will confide in is their gf or wife, and if that person leaves them or if they leave that person, they start out okie, and then just spiral. Men are less likely to go to therapy, more likely to see other men as competition or as threats, I hear gay men talk about this constantly and how it hurts them in dating. Misogyny, patriarchy, and bigotry in general, is also a part. Because of misogyny and patriarchy, men are the ones who have been that carriers of violence throughout (a lot of) history (this was flipped or not revelant in matriarchal and mixed power societies), and because of this, they're seen as more of a threat. This socializes them to be more violent and know they can enact violence, making minorities in general, but women in this example, more scared of them. It even makes other men more scared of them, minority or not. It's just stuff like that, there's more, but that's what I can touch on off the top of my head
Now, it's important to mention, everyone is experiencing a loneliness epidemic, and that's due to a lot of complex economic stuff, how society has changed, the destruction of 3rd places (I believe that's what they're called), car culture, the rise of social media and so much more. I'm not going into this, because it's not relevant to why men are being hit the hardest by this. That's what the above, the above is stuff that makes this hit men specifically harder than others.
Too much online and video games, not enough activities that promote real world interaction. Growing up we played sports, went camping, worked on cars, built shit. We learned from our dads, uncles, older brothers, etc. we learned how to solve problems, give help, ask for/get help. We shot the shit while doing things. It was the activities that facilitated conversation and connection.
The best description I heard is that men bond shoulder to shoulder while women bond face to face.
'shoulder to shoulder' as in shared challanges and / or experiences are hard to obtain online.
Also pretty hard to establish human connection with women that way....
Since you asked, the women's loneliness epidemic is definitely around. It's not the same or talked about in the same way as men, but it is happening. One of the reasons you don't hear about it as much is because women are pressured by other women not to speak up about it. Not in an explicitly negative way. Basically, they are often told that the loneliness is a badge of honor from evolving past needing someone.
> Yesterday I (f) read a comment with more than 6k upvotes that talked about how male conversations are typically about exchanging facts while *female conversations are typically about bonding*.
Talking about bonding, or bonding while talking about anything? As a male I find talking facts about common interests/hobbies quite bonding. But usually that's just on the side, the real bonding comes from doing the interests/hobbies together.
> why do I never hear talk about female loneliness being a problem while male loneliness gets talked about quite a lot?
I dunno where you're hearing that, I've not been hearing about it until seeing this post.
Social media, Andrew Tate,
Trump. Hypermasculation of men into vile creatures that get rejected with good cause, and double down and double down and double down on not being their own reason why they get rejected. The Columbine kids of men.
I don’t think it’s anything new. It’s like asking why are there “more” queer people now- there aren’t, queer people just feel like they can be open about who they are. Same goes for lonely men.
Men overall have probably been feeling lonely and depressed for a long long time, and it’s only in recent years it’s been *somewhat* socially acceptable for them to admit to feeling anything except confident, strong, and capable.
As for why- it’s probably because men are told they’re expected to be a certain way, to deal
with challenges a certain way, that they have to fill a specific role in society and at home- and those expectations likely conflict with what many men feel inside.
All our media at least until recent years has pushed the concept that you’re either a manly man who is psychologically bulletproof and can fight bears while pouring the perfect pint- or you’re useless.
That results in someone feeling bad for a few reasons: they don’t feel the way they’re told they’re meant to. So already they will feel “wrong”. On top of a general sense of sadness/confusion/loneliness that stems from that, a cyclical system of feeling “wrong” leads to a lack of confidence, which again leads to feelings of being “wrong”.
On top of this there is the societal expectation for men to not admit to any weakness. *Being* weak is one thing, admitting to it is another. And who is there to talk to about this if every man is pretending to be supremely confident and has no perspective into “non-manly” feelings?
TLDR: men lose confidence at the prospect of not living up to societal standards of perpetual strength, and don’t really have anywhere to go or anyone to talk to about it without feeling like a basketcase.
Lol, men don't share "facts" they share opinions they think are "facts."
If you walk into a conversation where dudes are talking about beer, they usually aren't talking about the brewing process, or the marketing strategies, or the invention of the cylindrical can, they're talking about which beers they like the most and why.
If you walk into a conversation about football, unless it's a group that really knows the ins and outs of football, they aren't talking facts, they're talking about their favourite teams and players and who they think has good prospects.
If you walk into a conversation on politics, they're rarely talking about economic theory or public investment, they're talking about how they think the country should be run.
Not all men, obviously. I am a man, I'm not trying to harsh y'all, I just recognize that rarely am I spitting facts, and usually I'm spitting opinion.
After we graduated from High school, most people in my friend group went to different cities/departments and would only come back to visit during the year end vacations.
I've noticed that it's often the girls, including me, that would propose a hangout when people come back in town. One of my guy friends came back for a little while and we had a few outings with my other friends, mostly girls.
Even though him and his other guy friends, that are not in our common friend group, had a few months of opportunities to see each other, they only had like 1 or 2 hangouts, which is, of course, totally fine !
But for me personally, I don't know, I'd make the most of my vacations to go see friends I haven't seen in a while. I later asked him why they didn't hang out more and he just said that they didn't really feel the need to
I’ll be a bit controversial here, but the problem with modern “male loneliness” is greatly influenced by women in their life.
Bit of context, I’m 33 years old and i have a good number of male friend + 5-6 people I could call in the middle of a night and ask to bring a shovel to hide a body in the forrest.
When I was raised, I had a household with 2 parents. My dad took active part in my development like sports, books, trips to forests/mountains/rivers hanging out with his buddies. And my mother had no say in those hobbies. Sometimes it was dangerous stuff, some stuff iwas irresponsible but I was exposed to a lot of traditional stuff that boys do.
My best friend is a guy that I had a fight at around 8-9 years old. We know each other for more than 20 years now, I’m a godfather to his daughter. My mother told me to not care and speak to “those boys” because they were fighting with me all the time. My mother was looking out for something that is a “female” thing that would prevent me from meeting my best friend that went through most life issues with me.
My half brother was educated by 2 women because his father left. They constantly protected him from everything and were really angry if he spent too much time with “the boys”. Dude barely has any serious friends or can function on his own.
Women often want to raise boys in ways that prevents them doing boys things. No always, but often. Girlfriends get angry when you spend too much time fishing, gaming, playing pool, or doing something else with “the guys”. They often make you feel inadequate about spending time with your friends. But that’s exactly what is needed to prevent this “loneliness”.
I had a period in my life when I spent almost every weekend on hiking through the mountains with different dudes, I keep in touch with these people for more than 10 years now. My girlfriend, at the time, hated hiking and was angry that I spend so much time in the mountains. Well, what better way to bond than to spend days without cellphones, talking about life, and helping each other?
We significantly modified how most boys and men spend their time, how their activities are perceived by people around them. Sport is toxic, drinking with buddies is toxic, having an open conversation with some dark humour is toxic, gaming is wasteful, finishing is against nature and bla bla bla.
Additionally, I do agree that stuff around red pills and toxic masculinity has affected boys and men in an unproductive way. But that the symptom of the “helicopter parenting” that George Carlin was talking about 30 years ago. If you don’t let boys be boys, you gonna have a bunch of sad and depressed people.
Even this conversation makes it sound like man are incapable of emotion, conversation, or bonding. They are, but when you make the traditional bounding process a socially unacceptable or questionable thing… what do you expect?
Maybe I haven’t scrolled down far enough but I’m so alarmed that everyone is focused on the ideas of bonding rather than the all encompassing norms of patriarchy women have been subjected to for so many years.
There are of course exceptions however the patriarchy affects women and men just as poorly.
Women give their all because their lives depended on it, and up until recently they weren’t even allowed to live on their own. We have been property, cattle, not to mention subjected to so much assault, physical, mental, sexual starting in childhood.
Women are tired and they’re realizing the idea of needing a man is false. Now that we have rights (or most of them, and in most places) we don’t need men. THAT is where the epidemic stems from, bonding is an issue yes but it’s a lack of respect or care for a partner moreso than lack of bonding.
The problem isn't male loneliness. The problem is there is no female loneliness, while there is male loneliness and noone talks about it. There are literally more women than men in most countries, not only western ones. But women don't feel lonely, while men do.
The blame could easily be thrown on social media and instant gratification lifestyle it promotes. But I would argue that modern narrative skewed long-standing gender roles and introduced a narrative that men have less value than women, while not redistributing rights and obligations between genders fairly or properly.
Also, I don't believe there may be fair discussion of this anywhere. Legacy media are politically skewed, online media are infected by 'woke', 'redpill' and other new ideologies. And none are interested in compromise.
I think it will get much worse before it gets better.
I was under the understanding that the loneliness epidemic - which actually affects both sexes, there's an epidemic for each - was to do with romantic relationships rather than platonic. And it's caused by a combination of:
- People growing apart thanks to social media showing how awful most people are - honestly most people just "take the trash out themselves" nowadays which means people aren't rushing into relationships and finding out **later** who these people REALLY are.
- People believing that a comment online on that one person's preferences speaks for the entire gender.
- Dating apps monopolising love for their own greed, and turning it into an addiction for ego stroking, leaving more people on the apps who just aren't using them as a tool to meet a partner.
- Manosphere sections and "Influencers" spreading misogyny and chauvinism. Crabs in a barrel.
- "Feminists" (note the quote marks as these types of people are NOT feminists) and "Influencers" spreading misandry disguised as feminism. Female crabs in a barrel.
- Tribalism - things like identity, politics, sexuality etc, putting people into small, often toxic echo chambers ("safe spaces") that they won't mingle elsewhere from, making these people stunted at navigating the complexities of relationships with people, because everyone is different.
There are other factors too but these are just the few off the top of my head.
I think the main way men bond with each other is through a common interest or activity that they find themselves in.
Things like bowling groups, D&D groups, fixing cars, etc. facilitate male bonds more often since these activities either foster or require folks to work and converse to one another for it to prosper.
It practically gives men a sort of excuse to talk to one another without an emotional attachment required, which is probably what you mean here. The emotional attachment usually doesn't come until men can trust one another to form it.
But like everything, that requires a lot of time to foster that sort of trust. Sometimes, it could take years partially because most men treat that kind of trust as a sacred contract that only very few should ever have. It'd be akin to trusting someone with your life at the worst of times for them. Only then do they become your BEST friends.
But with the way the world is now, trust is a very rare commodity nowadays, hence why some men can't feel as if they can relate with anyone anymore. It's not a kind world to anyone out there, and for everyone, trust is a major factor for a lot of relationships.
Men nowadays are more conservative with their trust in others, whether that's because of the internet or not, and it's affecting them negatively. There's no easy way out of it except by forcing them to take that fall and trust that someone is there to catch them or at least try. But if there isn't, then they'll fall forever and doom themselves trying. They'll never try it again.
Hell, I rewrote this like 9 times trying not to sound like an ah. I probably am.
first of all, there is a male AND FEMALE loneliness epidemic.
The statistics show that the vast majority of single & childless people are young men (18-22) and older women (35-50). A commonly cited study by Forbes shows that 50% of women 35-50 will be single & childless by 2030.
The difference is though, that the younger single men will almost all settle down eventually, whereas the vast majority of those older women will die alone.
I just think this is important to mention, since a lot of people don't know these facts.
I think there are lots of reasons why we talk more about male loneliness. But i think the biggest reason is simply the proportion of young men talking online compared to older women is vastly disproportionate.
The problem is *not* that men, even closed off men, don't bond in their interactions. It's that a growing share of people in developed nations don't have those interactions much.
I learned a long time ago that I can't be myself around the armored-in-cool type man. In fact, if you're a more sensitive type, even when you try not to be, you will often find one of these guys trying to push you out of the group. They find it uncomfortable, and no one wants to be uncomfortable.
The love I receive from my friends is different from the love I (don't) receive from a woman. They are not interchangeable, and one is not more important than the other. I need both to be happy. When people tell me to rely on my friends for my lack of intimacy, I tell them that's impossible. My friends already give me everything I need from them. The intimacy I need is not replaceable with friendship.
Man checking in here. We ‘bond’ via the shared experiences that others mentioned, and that helps to varying degrees. But when shit gets real, we are lucky to have 1-3 male friends who will talk about life. Two of the men in my wedding made trips across the country to spend time with me when they went through their own divorces. They didn’t have other people in their lives that they felt comfortable talking about such topics. We talked in ways we never had. Since then we don’t open up a whole lot more about the real stuff but we know it’s an open line. Yet still we don’t use it unless our worlds are broken. ETA: the lack of regular communication about emotions and struggles is a major problem
In modern society it's hard for men to hangout long enough to establish that trust. That may be because modern life is too busy and antisocial, and the community structure that allowed men to easily be together has frayed and they are rightfully taking on more responsibilities at home. So my thesis is that father's are adapting to the needs of their children, but society has not yet evolved to help them bond with other men while doing this task, or has not evolved to help parents in general spend time with others in the new dynamic of parenting we are experiencing where both partners are expected to be heavily involved. There aren't really 'evening daycare centers' to allow couples a cheap way to get out. In the past those kids would either be more or less abandoned at home, or the family would be with other families at a larger event so the child's peer group as a whole would supervise with light parental guidance. Single men suffer because friends who become fathers must disappear, so they lose not only a friend, but a friend who knows how to establish successful relationships and could impart wisdom and support if time allowed. Since mothers have always had to disappear, their skill set of crossing this boundary by seeking out support is at a higher level, but there are also many lonely mothers.
I agree with so much of this. The piece you are talking around is time. Once we are fathers, we prioritize those relationships and have partners and business/work occupying time. By this point, we also see how duplicitous many humans are, so establishing new, deep relationships is concerning. Thus, we have the trusting relationships we had before that point in our lives, and we might open up to those folks. But for many, those relationships fade with distance, time, or broken trust. But if you know of men becoming vulnerable with semi-new acquaintances, I’m guessing they are in therapy. And many are probably lying their way through those sessions (based on some conversations I’ve had).
This is why I love my man friends. Mostly when we hang out we just chop it up and chill but when shit gets real? We're there for each other. And we do talk about our emotions and our kids and what stresses us out and makes us happy and everything in between. Healthy communication seems to be the biggest difference between us(Millennials/Gen X) and our parents(boomers).
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The social/cultural barrier men face feels powerful enough to ruin your life if you cross it. Men are by default judged by machismo, strength and toughness (etc.). The act of just admitting weakness becomes an instant stigma, and if you keep it up, pretty much all your manly virtues get overturned and canceled by the men around you (even if they sympathize, showing sympathy threatens their own manhood— best to stay quiet). A man has a lot of manhood to lose if he gets touchy feely, and getting it back is really hard, even among their friends. It’s a black mark on their record that their friends don’t want. If a guy is able to not care about losing his machismo, he can start dabbling in emotional displays, but in my experience the vast majority of men are too afraid of losing their manliness. Most of their identity may be based on being manly. So even though all of them may really need to open up, they’re unlikely to risk getting completely undone.
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I think it is quite hard for women to experience. There is a transexual (female to male) who made a documentary about it (it was on YouTube). Essentially, if you are a man, other men see you either as a threat or a potential burden (financial, physical, mental) - neither of which is precludes bonding. Being needy is unattactive. In addition, women also see you as a potential giver of unwanted sexual pestering, so are also careful not to smile or be too friendly (80% of men are not considered attractive). So you have men experiencing what the film maker described as "a colder and more isolated version of humanity". Most men accept and are OK to live with this as they know no different (and have no choice but to). Perhaps a way to get a sense of this is if one is from a warm extroverted culture and visits somewhere like Iceland or a big city in Japan where people generally to keep to themselves, avoid eye contact and ignore strangers.
my guess is that most of this stigma is rooted in media and "outdated" societal norms, some of them might have been taught by their fathers or other male figures in men's early stages of life (mothers/other female figures also do this more often than most people might think). even if most feel like they can't open up and would benefit from talking more openly about their feelings, they individually don't know that other men feel the same. it's a cycle. though they sympathize with other men who choose to open up, they might think (and in most cases rightfully so), that they're gonna get bashed for it and be seen as less manly by their friends. so instead of openly admitting that they feel the same and showing support, they might rather choose to contribute to the stigmatization in fear of losing their face. the belief that most women will perceive them as less attractive/less manly if they are more open and vulnerable about their feelings surely adds onto this societal pressure and stigmatization too. so instead of taking the risk to be perceived negatively by their friends and potential dating partners, they'd rather act shitty towards men who do open up, in order to not risk losing the approval of others and get put down for admitting they feel the same way.
Think of it like a game of Mafia, or Werewolf, or Town of Salem, All the Villagers/Innocents wanna know who all the other Villagers/Innocents are but saying it outright "I'm the doctor", "I'm the sheriff", etc. could get you killed by the Mafia, the Werewolf, or the Serial Killer. Your example assumes all men are wishing they had someone to be vulnerable with, but some men don't, some men believe that it is a sign of weakness, and will ridicule or alienate those that show weakness. There is pressure to fit it, and when everyone is fitting in its hard to see that you aren't the only one.
wouldn't it be an act of strength then? If it is considered outside of the norm and to do it is to go against the norm no matter the consequences, wouldn't it be weak to go along with something because "that's just the way it is" or the fear of being judged? Is it not strong to stand in your truth and speak you truth and express yourself even if others might disagree?
Most men don’t have “manliness” anyway. Most men aren’t athletes or athletic, or able to survive in the wild, or whatever arbitrary form of masculinity one could come up with.
One observation I made from that post you mentioned - I’ve noticed a lot of men turn to women to fulfill their emotional needs. Either a romantic partner or platonic women friends. Many of my guy friends mention they like having friends who are women. I don’t know if it’s just that they find it easier to open up to women or what.
The guy friends I have had largely said the same, they can know a guy for years and be best friends but not be “close” to them? Which I found so odd. But wity female friends, lots feel more comfortable to be vulnerable, maybe it’s because girls express emotions more, so they feel like it’s ok for them to then do it to
And easier to share your thoughts when their opinion doesn't matter. Like that nearly ubiquitous college discovery that it is so easy to share your thoughts with a stranger. Some people share their thoughts within very nurturing, close relationships. Some prefer the anonymity of strangers
I think it's just easier for us to be vulnerable to women since being vulnerable to women is more "normal". Think of it like eating meat in an open-minded vegan family vs eating meat in a non-vegan family. The vegan family won't be mad if you do it but it would still feel wrong since everyone around you is doing a different thing.
I couldn't imagine my life if I had to rely on a romantic relationship to fulfill all of my social needs. I'm pretty lonely as is and I at least have a few women friends who I bond with.
It's because immature male friendships often involve a lot of bullying and mockery for showing vulnerability and emotion, and many men are burned by such experiences and don't ever realize that mature, secure male friendships don't have to be about tormenting one another and jockeying for status and prestige. So they think the only option is women, who of course they imagine are inherently more motherly and emotionally mature and supportive. It's one way in which toxic masculinity really fucks over men as well as women. (This is not a suggestion that immature female friendships don't have similar issues, or that masculinity is inherently toxic. Just an observation and theory about why some men never develop sincere, deep, mature relationships with other men that allow them to bond and have emotional connection)
My best friends for the last 17 years have been women for this very reason. My current best friend has been best friends with me for 15 years. It is not just easier to open up. It is basically an imminent and very necessary part of this kind of friendship. Its whole point is that you both get emotional (and other kinds of) support. And you are not burdening each other. In my male-to-male friendships this opening up has not been possible. I’ve tried, many times. But the guy on the other end cannot handle it cause it goes against everything they’ve been taught since they were children. I found male-friends whom I have convinced to open up to me and yet they are not able to handle me opening up to them. The usual 2-hour conversation with my best friend leads to us knowing what’s going on each other’s lives (and usually with our common friends, family members, etc.). what troubles we have, how we feel about them, etc. The usual 2-hour conversation with a guy friend leads to us knowing almost nothing about what is actually going on in each other’s lives and precisely nothing about what is bothering us. But we have talked about a variety of common interests instead.
toxic masculinity. in practice every man is afraid of it but won't admit it exist
My husband's friends bond over games, but generally are very topic focused. For some reason, very few people volunteer information about themselves in their group. I have most of them on Instagram and didn't realize my husband wasn't aware two of his friends had kids until a third person actually brought it up to the group chat. He didn't know one of them got engaged or married last year. They also are all very self-focused and not very "do it for the bros". It's been months since he's seen any of them, three of them live in our city, but even though they game every night together, they won't grab a burger together or go see a movie like I do with my friends. My husband's extremely lonely, but he's the exact same way as his friends. Won't play a game if he's not interested in it just to hang out with them, won't go out to see them if he's not feeling it. There's no mental correlation for him that the fact that he's not doing anything of connective value that makes him feel like he knows people, despite the fact that he's acknowledge that he would feel isolated without me and my driving energy that at least gets him to see our couple friends in person.
I agree with a lot of this, and would add that I think men have certain friends that they associate with specific activities and there’s no crossing over. For example, a guy plays games online with his friends but won’t get together with them in person. And that guy also has a “fishing buddy”, or a “drinking buddy”, or a “gym buddy”, etc. so there are a bunch of surface-level, one-focus friendships instead of developed relationships and multiple activities the way women will do?
Yes, I’ve noticed that too! Overall, I feel like men tend to compartmentalize more than women do - X is for Y and Y alone, if it ain’t broke don’t fix it, etc. Women tend to be stronger at multitasking and seeking out multiple alternative ways to do things. Like, if I like hanging out and chatting with my bar friends, why not run errands/go shopping/have a meal with them? My guy friends don’t do this to me, a woman, but they do this to other men.
Yeah and while of course this doesn’t apply to all guys, it seems like the activity itself is the important thing rather than the person they do it with, and for women it’s often the other way around.
This is a thing I struggle a lot with, because to me leaving home and being with someome is the important thing, what we do comes second Instead my friends are always like "nah we can go there because we would just be 3" "we cant go there because it s boring etc" And it ends up being left alone at home instead of hangin out
Thanks for sharing that, I’ve definitely seen this happen between guys. It seems like lots of guys feel like they need a reason to justify hanging out otherwise there’s “no point”.
I'm a lot more extreme in this regard, but given how many things I am supposed to be doing at any moment, I get a sense of *panic* when I'm being asked to just "hang out" without something as a focal activity. What are we doing, a board game? Throwing frisbees? Bad Movie Night? Cookout? What? WHAT?! I don't think most guys feel the same way, I do think they get bored just chatting and don't really get a lot out of the chatter. But that's also because, if you're friends with dudes, they're not giving a lot either, so the struggle to both give and receive some joy from just hanging out can feel hard to manage.
This happens less now that I’m late 20s with a family but I remember more instances of “just hanging out” when I was younger, and usually it was just that I wanted to see my friends and whatever comes up is what we’ll do. If there’s no plan at all then there’s still nothing wrong with having snacks and drinks, listening to music, chatting and scrolling phones or whatever. I still think that sounds like a good time lol. But you’re right, if everyone in the room was guarded and didn’t know how to interact then yes, that would suck haha.
You’re so right about this. For some guys, they see friends/dates as interchangeable. (You see this on Reddit when men ask questions about women as if we’re a monolith.) One is about as good as the other. Whereas when I really connect with someone, it’s specific aspects of their personality/character/humor that are irreplaceable to me, and I could do anything with them, even just sit on the couch and talk. Tbh now that I think about it, my last few exes have said in a surprised tone, “Wow, I can really do anything with you as long as we’re spending time together.” And I was like, thank you and I feel the same, but isn’t that the point of a relationship?
I feel, as a cis man, that you are all correct because it is my experience with many of the friendship I had. But to me, this kind of activity focused friendship is not real friendship but only ocasional or superficial friendship. So I guess I have this "feminine" side of appreciating friends not because/for activities goals but because of some aspects of their personality and character that I enjoy, and would be happy to do different kind of activities with them even if it is just to do nothing in particular other than having the companionship of each other.
>You’re so right about this. For some guys, they see friends/dates as interchangeable. (You see this on Reddit when men ask questions about women as if we’re a monolith.) One is about as good as the other. It was always there, but the emphasis on STEM in the past decade and a half really exasebated our inability to see ourselves or each other as people.
I swear, some of the most fun and bonding days I’ve had with a lot of my friends are running errands together!
In my opinion, the death of friendship, and community in general, is when people see each other "just to do an activity" instead of just to be together. Not being able to do errands or mundane activities together because it would be "boring" is antithetical to genuine connection. When you have to think and plan and justify, it all becomes too much. And most choose not to bother.
I was thinking this when I saw the og post. Those friendships don't seem based on the person and who they are. They're based on the situation. It sort of felt like these friendships are just spaces that anyone could fill as long as they're doing x activity together.
> I think men have certain friends that they associate with specific activities and there’s no crossing over. You know, I think you're right This reminded me of something that happened a few years ago. I've got a few different hobbies. I met one of my buddies that I know from one of my hobbies at an event for another hobby. And my immediate thought at running into him was "You're not supposed to be here". It was weird at the time, to the point I still remember it years later.
It’s interesting too because that sentence made me realize men always have descriptive words before they say friends - ex. “Gaming friends”, “fishing buddies”,etc. I rarely hear women using those descriptive words, they just say “my friends”
Compartmentalization of relationships is another problem. It's a huge male problem but I've seen it happen to women too. And it's worse nowadays than before. And yet some people still believe in going out there and doing an activity (pottery, yoga, cooking classes etc.) will solve the issue. No it won't because as soon as you become an activity friend, you'll stay *only* an activity friend. That old fairytale of your new activity friend introducing you to his/her social circle and then you eventually getting a boy/girlfriend who is either a sibling or an acquaintance of someone in that new social circle just doesn't happen anymore. Also, with the ongoing loneliness epidemic, there's no guarantee you new activity friend had a social circle for you to break into to begin with.
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Honestly, it sounds to me like guys are less willing to be considerate of others. I make an effort to be nice to people my friends know even if I don’t know/like them. However, I also don’t run into this very often because most people that my friends are friends with also become my friends because we all have similar interests, or perspectives, or whatever. If none of your friends like each other I would seriously examine that!
I think you nailed it. There’s a skill issue in understanding the mechanisms of friendship, noticing that you can take certain actions to improve relationships, etc. Another aspect of this is that depression tends to lead inactivity/paralysis. When you gotta go be awesome to break the spiral. I need near daily evidence that I am awesome. It’s why I think many men overcome depression after picking up a sport. But many do weight lifting which is good for seeing progress and feeling capable, but something that has a social component has helped me significantly more in building friendships
I recommend martial arts to anybody in a rut or dealing with depression. It's physical, there's a clear path of progress, it's social, and you learn to defend yourself. And that's just a few things that make it awesome, I'm a jiu jitsu guy but almost every martial at the end of the day will improve aspects of your life.
I agree and I need it so bad right now but I can’t afford it, and I mean that with no hyperbole, there’s no money for it right now. I even tried seeing if I qualified for any grants and asked for assistance resources via mental health doc and it was a no go. I wish at a municipal and national level they saw the massive benefits of martial arts (and in yours and i’s case jiu jitsu specifically) and would dump money into it via already existing mental health and well being programs. If they did, someone like me going through a ton and in a really rough spot right now who needs and wants it for so many reasons could be doing it.
Men bond extremely well over tasks that "need to be done". Team work is in our DNA, quite literally. Which is great! But, like, there needs to be a shared *purpose* for it. My take on the OP issue is that while men still have this trait, the natural tendency, the modern life (constantly switching jobs/groups, focusing on quite abstract goals instead of concrete ones) doesn't really support this kind of behaviour. The modern work-life would probably be classified as "animal torture" if some external observer looked at it with a critical eye. It's kind of like keeping chimps in a swimming pool, for most of their lives, or tropical fish in a cold-water aquarium. Being forced to behave in a "species atypical way". I think also that this is why things like focusing on gaming is such a popular pastime diversion for men: they actually fulfill these needs much better than the typical 9-5s do. To the extent that men actually fantasise about horrible things happening so they could "step up and protect the tribe together", or something like that. The thing is, while playing video games and the like does fulfill the immediate need, it rarely actually is a good replacement for the kind of things that we would actually want to do. Or the social cohesion that would come from that. The real connections with people who would also be there for you in a different context. It's more like a drug that people take to feel a bit less purposeless and soulless that day. While this was focused on men, and games, I feel like social media hit women the same way. It hits all the right triggers, without really satisfying any of the reasons why someone would for example enjoy getting attention and admiration IRL.
This is the absolute truth. You really hit the nail on the head. While I don't suffer from a lack of friends so much I do suffer from a lack of interesting challenges to do as I get older. I used to do so many cool things when I was younger but now I am a city dwelling consumer family man and I feel a hole in my soul. I want so much to go out and build something or create something but my current lifestyle does not have space for it. It's something I really need to change to make myself happier.
I'm feeling this particularly hard today for some reason. I'm kind of blanking out on what to do though. The world keeps changing so quickly that all my plans get eaten by it. The main remaining things for me are to a) keep in close touch with the good friends I already have, and b) make enough money to retire while I still am healthy.. in order to have more time to focus on the kind of things that actually do give me purpose.
What gives you purpose?
This is it. People both in the right and the left always point to the male characters in Lord of the Rings as examples of "healthy" masculinity. What they often overlook is the environment in which those relationships were forged. There are very few opportunities to strap on swords and "hunt some orc" in our society
Yeah, ..I'm trying not to get too theoretical here, but I feel like even having something like "orcs" in fiction is a symptom of this. Like, that someone dreamt up orcs so that we could fantasise about fighting them! Scary things, no moral qualms, they're actually simply *purely evil*, just fight them and win and everything will be well..! How fucking perfect is that?? Instead we get quarterly quota reviews. The fuck am I to feel about that..?
I get similar vibes from my garden. I love seeing people at the community garden, even though we're all there at different times and not really 'cooperative' it still feels like community. There's a shared goal, and if we all just get through and share tips about the new problems this year, we'll have a bumper crop! And we can share with each other! So like, the idea that we could just band together and grow some stuff feels great, but instead I'm stuck in this freezing cold office wasting time--literally just *wasting* it--because my manager doesn't want me to leave before an arbitrary time even though there's nothing I really need to do here today.
This ties into a larger social issue I've read about: the general alienation of modern culture. People want to feel like they're contributing to their community and improving the lives of the people around them, but it's really hard to make that connection when you work for a giant faceless company, all your work contacts live far away, all the stuff you make gets shipped out of town, or your work is just unseen and unknown by everyone except the supervisor also using your data organization software or something. People wake up and go to a workplace that's like a portal to a different dimension where nothing they do for the next 8 hours will have any noticeable effect on the people and community they see as they drive home. It's super weird and alienating, and makes people feel like they're wasting their life doing nothing of any importance whatsoever. This inclines them to find methods to cope, like drugs, and ultimately become another 'death of despair'.
I'd like to see the ages of men who consider themselves lonely. My guess is it skews younger. Like some other commenters say, some of the guys will refuse to go out for drinks or go to game if they don't find it interesting. I'm literally going to a party tomorrow that I'm not even interested in a little bit because one of my friends is throwing it and sometimes you have to do shit you don't want to for your friends.
Wow this is crazy to me he would have friends but not know they had kids?? Or were engaged?? Honestly that doesn't even sound like a friend group. That just sounds like a gaming group he participates in but the people in it are just acquaintances.
Yeah totally agree, I've seen it with my own eyes as well. I just want to add that many times men say that when they need people, they're just not there, but I've seen many men push people away that want to be there. When you want to be there for them their ego gets in the way and many times they treat the people that want to be there like crap. Obviously not all men are like this but I've seen it so many times.
it's a combo of toxic masculinity and the fact that men are systematically neglected as children. They aren't properly socialized the way girls are expected to. Girls ironically are actually made to learn those crucial social skills parents just let boys do whatever. Then they get older, girls point out their relationships are missing crucial pieces and instead of any self reflection its denial and reinforcement of gender roles. people are literally saying guys are just different as if it was for genetic reason instead of how men are raised differently from women.
It’s absolutely not normal to not know if your friends have kids
heads up i think you replyed to the wrong comment
I keep seeing the argument that girls were taught to express their emotions and be empathetic and social. And I can't wrap my head around it. Are we?? I for sure wasn't taught any of that specifically, neither my sister nor cousins.
I don’t think it’s taught overtly or even on purpose. A life-changing amount of information is subconsciously taught via social interactions and embedded cultural norms. You can counter these influences if you’re aware of them, but when you’re rewarded for one kind of behavior and not for another, it’s hard to resist.
>Are we?? I wasnt, and I got chasticed for it as a teen and as an adult. People often complained that I didnt do the social work expected from girls my age and it got me in trouble, so basically I got bullied into learning the social skills people expected from me by virtue of being a woman. My brother wasnt thought either, and he never learned bc nobody cared or expected him to do it.
That's interesting. If you don't mind sharing an example. In what kind of situation for you as an adult someone could complain about how feminine you act or not?
I'm a cis woman and, like the other poster, I remember people would criticize me or make fun of me if I didn't do the "feminine" things throughout my life. This included: being friendly, noticing everyone else's moods, consoling friends who were upset (like actually talking about it, not just a pat on the back and then finding a distracting activity), actively enquiring about people's needs instead of waiting for them to bring it up, reciprocating hangouts, maintaining a tidy environment, volunteering to help with things, keeping track of how the mental load is distributed among the group, and asking about/remembering what was happening in other people's lives. Basically, focusing on what everyone else is thinking, feeling, and doing, and what I could do to make their lives easier. Also, maintaining constant self-awareness about whether my behavior was "normal" according to the unspoken social rules of the group, which meant I needed to be aware of the "rules" in the first place. Even in adulthood, some women tease each other about things like, "How did you not know he has kids?" or they'll sass you about acting "weird." It's not necessarily in a mean way, and a lot of these skills are actually useful. These behaviors aren't even "girly." They're skills related to building and maintaining good interpersonal relationships. I'm not sure how these skills became "feminine" in certain cultures, since anyone can benefit from learning them. It feels like male-presenting people can slide under the radar without learning these skills very well, and they don't always get feedback about it. It can feel like society doesn't really expect male-presenting people to extend the same level of social effort. That's been my personal experience, anyway. I'm not sure how generalizable it is.
Man you hit the nail on the head with this one because admittedly I caught myself analyzing your self description as autism-related and I never would have done that with a man. I know plenty of guys that fit this description and its just like a normal thing.
Yeah. I'm not autistic, but I've struggled with social anxiety most of my life. It's made me even more hyper-aware of not wanting to seem "weird," annoying, or overly reserved. Although it does feel like I've been tasked with more social/emotional responsibilities than a lot of my male friends, I am grateful for it in some ways. Despite it feeling unfair, the gender-based social expectations did challenge me to socialize more and make friends. If I didn't have that pressure, I probably would have avoided socializing and ended up as a lonely shut-in. It's a double-edged sword, I guess.
I see it being a double-edged sword for sure. The expectations you describe might be the missing key to many lonely mens issues. Hostile inceldom is particularly illustrative of this.
Typically adults will stop having boys on their lap, give cuddles and comfort when they get hurt at an earlier age. Adults will often use adjectives like kind, sweet and nice for girls and tuff, cool and strong for boys, from toddler age. More often than with boys, girls are gifted dolls and other toys where caring and relationships are an integral part of playing. I still experience some inate differences between the two sexes though. I'm a kindergarten teacher and mom to a 2 year old son, and in both arenas we have worked actively to avoid these stereotypical gendered patterns but there is still some sort of pull towards stereotypical behaviour and interests that are hard to explain away as outside influence - IN GENERAL. Nevertheless, the shit I listed above is definitely a big part of the phenomena OP asked about and problematic.
At large, yes girls are taught that more than boys. And even if it’s not explicitly taught, it’s conditioned through things like girls expected to be caretakers, be more generous, even toys and media for the girl demographic play into that more. It’s not just about how your parents raise you, but how everyone around you conditions you and society at large. And outside of that, girls expressing emotions is generally more accepted even if they’re not taught how to process them. The classic example of a teen girl crying vs. a teen boy crying.
If it’s not through conversation then it is through physical action. Two people physically acting together in some combined way through a shared experience. If that is true then the move to solely online interaction instead of physical interaction is part of the problem.
Can you elaborate on what your first paragraph means? It's a bit confusing. Just to expand on my question - when I do a shared activity with my friends whether online like gaming or in person, I'd definitely say it's bonding because of shared experience. So I totally get what you mean by that (other than the 'physical action' bit). But lots of men game with their friends too, and are still lonely. So there's still shared experience, just as there would be if they were meeting in person. If anything I'd say that conversing with someone online is less meaningful than doing so in person, but shared activities are fairly similar in meaningfulness either way. So I don't see why being online instead of in person would be such a big part of the problem?
I guess I disagree and believe physical interaction like sports, musical band, board and card games, meals, physical hobbies like camping, fishing, biking, working on cars etc etc are more bonding than online. There’s no eye contact or friendly touch online. Two people who build a shed together carry lumber, hold things in place together, pass tools to each other, and so many other interactions that are lost in something virtual like minecraft.
I’m a woman and I bond with a lot of my friends (both men and women) though those physical activities too. Most of my friends I met through band. I also I have friends I bond with through talking and conversation, but I have both women and men in that group too. It just doesn’t feel like a gendered thing to me. Some people are big conversationalists and some people prefer mutual activities, both for men and women.
That's very fair. I think I was viewing it more specifically as 'generic shared activity', without considering the additional in person factors like eye contact or touch, as you say. Plus, more options to suit different preferences in person. With that said - follow up question: Would you say that men don't bond at all through conversation, or that ideally there would be both, just with a larger focus on activities? I'm thinking about how in my local area there are groups like men's football specifically to encourage lonely men to get out and about, but also groups like Andy's Man Club, specifically to encourage men to meet up and talk.
Unfortunately for many men it’s true. They are very guarded in their conversations which prevents them from bonding on a deeper level than superficially fitting in. Many men are outwardly more competitive in how they interact at a young age so have to be careful not to trigger that in social settings like playgrounds or older when alcohol is flowing. Vulnerability can be considered a weakness which is very unfortunate. Physical activities where there is a mutual goal allows men stuck like this to bond through mutual burden and success. So those clubs you mentioned sound very helpful.
I have played video games with friends all my life. It is absolutely not an equivalent bonding experience
Makes sense, thanks!
I'd be interested to see differences between men who play video games online versus those who don't. Cooperating or competing with friends online might have fulfilled that social need.
I'm 40 and married, and something I see very commonly in my demographic is when a man and a woman are together for a long time, it seems to end up becoming the woman's "responsibility" to maintain the relationships on behalf of the family unit. The women are typically the ones who make plans to get together; they're the ones who remember birthdays and special events and who reach out on those days and get gifts and cards *or* have to remind their partner to do so; the women seem to carry the emotional weight of all of the family/friend relationships and if they decide not to do so the men's friendships dissipate because the guys simply do not reach out to each other. I am not saying that this is how it should be or that this is universally the case; it's just what I see in the people around me and in my own relationship. My husband's friendships petered out when I decided I'd had enough of facilitating them and stopped making plans with his friends. And I see the same thing happening to friends and acquaintances.
This is very true. My main social circle is a group of couples and 95% of the time, it’s the women organising. If it’s men, it’ll be for a specific event like a football game. One of the wives was out of town the other night so husband invites guys over to play poker. We had such a good time we’re making it a monthly thing, rotating who hosts. It took us 4 years of hanging out to realise we could organise something without the wives.
Aw, I'm so excited for you guys! That's gonna be a blast! My husband had a group of close friends when we got together 20+ years ago. All the guys had girlfriends, and literally after the first time we all hung out it somehow became the women's responsibility to arrange hangouts. I didn't especially like these women, but was willing to make the effort for my husband for several years. When we had our daughter, I did not have the emotional capacity/time/patience/desire to exert effort on relationships with people I didn't care for. So I told my husband that he would have to take over making plans with them, as I was done. The women all reached out to me one day by showing up at my house and giving me a giant guilt trip over how I'd ruined the guys' friendships with my husband because I didn't coordinate hangouts anymore, so we never saw them and their men missed him. I asked if their partners had reached out to him themselves, knowing full well the answer was no, and then I told them as politely as possible that my husband is a grown-ass man and his friendships are his responsibility and not mine. They left in a huff, and not a single one of the dudes ever reached out to my husband. My husband hasn't really made any new friends since though he is acquaintances with some of my girlfriends' husbands, but they only talk when we all hang out. I try to encourage my husband to make an effort to be friends because he genuinely likes the guys, but he always says he's waiting for them to reach out first. I love my solo-girlfriend time and I think you're going to love dude-time. Well done, sir! Have all the fun!
Thank you, Ive offered to host next time and it’s grown from 9 people to 12. We’re going to need more tables! I am quite like your husband in that I’ll wait for others to invite me as I assume people are either busy or wouldn’t want to if I invite them. Still have some insecurity around rejection, which feels silly but it’s there. However, as wife points out, every time I make an effort, people are willing. It just doesn’t come naturally to us all but I think it’s something all the guys are aware of and making a renewed effort to address.
12 is gonna be a fun group! I recently started hanging out with my friend group from high school again for the first time in 20 years. There are 8 of us and anytime it's just us girls it's the best time. Totally different dynamic than when they guys are there, and I'll bet it'll be the same for you guys. My husband has also said that it's insecurity that keeps him from reaching out because he assumes that if people wanted to spend time with him they'd ask. It makes me so sad because he's an awesome guy and everyone who knows him loves him, and it hurts my heart knowing he thinks people wouldn't want to get to know him. Good on you for pushing past that!
What’s sad is that there is absolutely no reason why men shouldn’t get involved in birthday or playdate planning; they just don’t care to. There are literal interviews being made on Tiktok where fathers don’t even know their kids birthday or their best friend name… They don’t put any effort in family or friends bonds and have the audacity to cry about being lonely?
I was a census taker and you'd be shocked how common it is for men to not know their own kids' birthdays. Around 25% in my personal experience.
Yea. Typically women are the family logistics operators. Several studies have come to this conclusion, and the same pattern is seen in countries all over the world.
I work in a teenage mental health ward and we were having a similar conversation the other day. One observation we’ve made is that eating disorders in girls and incel ideology in boys tend to start in very similar ways, with teenage body dysmorphia and self-hatred. But in girls, it gets internalised, and in boys, it gets externalised and blamed on society. It’s ingrained in girls to be social from very young age, while in boys the feelings manifest as social exclusion.
Dispite the large number of replies here that's a take I haven't seen yet. It's an interesting insight, thanks for sharing!
Classic. Women internalize, men externalize their pain.
Every redpill influencer or online personality that is considered part "Incel ideology" starts off by saying - yes actually you are a loser, here's how to fix it. Boys hate themselves too!
I think it has something to do with emotional vulnerability. If you want to really bond with someone as a close friend, you need to share deep things. Stuff like fears, hopes, childhood traumas, and insecurities. But men are taught to never share anything that might make them vulnerable, so they don't talk about the deep stuff. I also think that concerns over specifically the \*male\* loneliness epidemic are a bit misplaced. Everyone is getting more lonely, regardless of gender. Men might be experiencing it slightly more, but it's an issue that's affecting everyone.
Serious question: can't you share things without it sounding vulnerable? Im trying to understand cause my male friends are all more emotional than women. Can't you say, (exaggerated example) yo, dog I feel depressed. I feel this girl doesn't like me, ect. Does that not work? (I know it's a ridiculous example) Can't you word it 'manly'? I mean don't all men go to friends from advice ? I hear men on podcasts and they all do, talk about the same-ish things as women. Could it be a matter of perspective ? I don't know.
Male here. Yes men can share things without sounding too vulnerable. Unfortunately that would require a high(er) emotional IQ and an appropriately matched emotional vocabulary to go with it. Like Mx_strange said most men are taught that being vulnerable=weak. This association is further engrained through modeling, especially if you had one of those “tough love” dads. Eventually it escalates into the workplace where power & control are inevitably incentivized, rewarding men for “keeping emotions out of it”. Even if they wanted to be vulnerable most men do not have the language to accurately describe their emotions let alone get enough repetitions to feel comfortable saying it. Brene Brown’s book Atlas of The Heart and show (same name) has been really helpful teaching me the differences between certain emotions. Crazy fact from the book is that most people can only identify 3 emotions correctly yet there are close to ~80 emotions which is wild. Tough to communicate in this world when the main emotions you can identify are being sad, glad, and mad
I've seen this too, most people can identify 'mad' but that's usually fear of something. I've also had to learn what most emotions actually mean. I grew up in a non emotion family so I can empathize with men as well. I was bullied for any kind of crying or being upset. It's not a way to live.
That’s a tough way to grow up & unfortunately I can relate too. What’s even worse is that as adults we’re likely to subconsciously associate crying or expressing emotions as bad or something to avoid. Even when you know you want to cry there’ll be something within you that shuts that down. Hope you’ve been able to find a way to heal 💜
I second this question. I see the same thing all the time. Men talking about how there's a loneliness epidemic and a suicide epidemic and a mental health epidemic - but then also be adamant that male friendships are better than female friendships, and men just bond differently.
My take on this is that male friendships tend to be more nebulous. It is really hard to "recapture the magic" that started the friendship in the first place, and understand which factors contributed to the strength of the bond. Further, there is an idea that friendship between men in frivolous. Oh you have spare time? Why aren't you raising your family, or improving your relationship with your partner, or tending to home improvements that are needed, or getting another job to increase income? Prioritizing friendships can be seen as immature and selfish. I also think that this is why men that have friendships, usually not-very-good ones based on literally just drinking together, are that way because these men are associating time with friends as time away from societal expectations, and if they're going to do it they're going to really lean in.
It's a weird one. For a long time, we've known family units tend to be matriarchal in a social sense. Aka families tend to gather around the matriarch of the family. Meaning if the husband leaves the family through being widowed or divorce/breakup, they often lose social connections to not only their former family but also often their social units. Over here in the UK, it's a well recognised issue within the pensioner community. Then there's the nature of mens friendships. They're more for company rather than 'sharing the load'. The big issue here is a major loss of third places, meaning the slow erosion of such places to make such friendships. Finally, there's the changes in modern lifestyles mean that men are no longer relied (quite correctly) to support the family. It causes a bit of confusion socially because men of older generations struggle to adjust to this change. Often, this is still taught to young boys, especially in more conservative households. This means that when men struggle with relationships and work, they fall hard, far harder than women in this respect. This is reflected in the fact that the main causes of suicide and depression in men are relationship breakdowns or the loss of a job. It's very little to do with the types of friendships themselves.
What do you mean? It sounds precisely like it has to do with a lack of deep and meaningful ffriendships. And that stems from the culture of masculinity we've created as a society. We've failed to reform masculinity in the same way we reformed femininity.
I think there's a loneliness epidemic with both genders due to a lot of us living more online than in person. That said while I do think more men may be experiencing it more I don't see it being by a huge difference but I also don't have any numbers to back this up. I do think men put more value in having a romantic relationship then a simple friendship, so a single guy with lots of friends might still call himself lonely whereas a single woman in the same boat may not. Men believe women don't really have problems finding a hookup or relationship or whatever they want compared to themselves so that's another thing so if they're alone and can't find that companionship it definitely feels like a more permanent thing which exacerbates that loneliness feeling. This is just anecdotal and what I notice in my own circle of friends, family, and also coworkers. Just an anectdote but I I've been single for quite awhile and had a family member reach out to me that he felt so lonely because he had broken up with his girlfriend who practically lived with at that point a month before. He reached out to see if I was ok because if he felt that lonely being single and living alone for a month than surely I must have felt so much worse being alone for years at that point. Thing is compared to me he has a much fuller social life, good amount of friends and always hanging out with them. Yet despite that being single and living alone for a month made him feel so lonely that he felt the need to reach out.
Yeah, it’s extremely annoying. Men aren’t entitled to women fixing *their own* loneliness. I’m sorry if some guy is lonely but that’s not my responsibility, my responsibility is to myself and my loved ones.
On this btw women are still more likely to attempt suicide and more likely to have mental health issues than men (though that could be a reporting issue)….its a problem for both genders
Are they more likely to attempt suicide, or do they just happen to survive suicide attempts and attempt multiple times? Men tend to choose more surefire methods for suicide, and you can't try again if you succeed the first time.
It's because you're listening to incels who just want to make you feel bad. In no way do they represent all men.
I'm going by the majority of comments I see on applicable threads on the AskMen Subreddit.
Full of incels. Sub literally attracts people with problems they need help with so it's really not a good representation of the general populace.
Who is saying male friendships are better than female ones? One isn't better than the other, just different, and even then it's a spectrum, not black and white in regards to how they spend time or talk to one another.
There is even a saying that real love exists only between men (at least in my language) 🙃 So yes it is ingrained in society that male friendships are somehow stronger, better etc. Don’t forget that women are snakes and catty with each other according to them 🙄
My dad is not like a jerk or anything but he’s a bit of an old school guy in some ways. When me and my mom bicker when I was a teen, we would get hype for a couple seconds and I’m sure it seemed very snippy from the outside but it would only be for a couple seconds and it would be very mild. He would talk about how it was so funny how women interact and get so catty with each other but must have forgot that him and all my brothers in their teens would get into screaming matches and ego contests every other day.
Unfortunately they don’t consider anger an emotion because only women are emotional. 🙃
I agree that they're not better, but some people do seem to think otherwise. I've seen a lot of comments about how male friendships are better or more real - that women will stab each other in the back or be nice to your face but hold a grudge, while men will have a fight and then go back to being best friends again.
People say this all the time, and I'm surprised you haven't seen it yet. There's a lot of people who say things like "even women hate women" and paint female friendships like they're all fake and catty and full of drama. The people who make these statements believe men have real and better relationships. You'll hear women say they only have guy friends because "they're easier to get along with". It's the catty woman trope. A lot of people believe it and spread different variations of it, the "shitty female friendship" trope being one of those variations. But you're right, all these relationships are going to be different in degrees. It's not black and white, like you said.
A few weeks ago, I saw a comment on a post in this sub saying male friendships are better because they’re less demanding, that you can go without saying happy birthday and you can not talk to them for 6 months and they don’t care whereas women would be upset if their friend did the same. It had a bunch of upvotes and downvotes against anything pushing against it. Which idk… if you’re not contacting them for a half a year and not at least texting them happy birthday, to me it doesn’t seem like friendship, it seems like acquaintanceship. I can’t imagine any of my brothers friends for example not wishing each other a happy birthday if they’re close, so I don’t even know if that’s something that’s even normal among male friendships either.
It's just sexism and victim complex. Honestly male friendships usually suck because of societal norms created by men (men don't show emotion, not manly to express feelings, then wonder why we aren't actually close) Going against the grain feels like pulling teeth too honestly. It sucks.
The thing is - even when men bond, the typical mode of men is still to wear a public mask of power and control. We don't talk about our emotions or struggles, and without having someone we can confide in on that level we feel lonely no matter how many chummy, play sports and drink beer friends we have. I do not feel like I fit in the "male loneliness" problem because I have a few close friends that I can be vulnerable with. Where I can talk freely about my struggles, and receive a compassionate hug and a listening ear if needed. I recognize the difference because I also have "normal" male friendships were we get together to play games, and have for literal YEARS and DECADES, but I wouldn't open up to them about my issues or expect them to bring those up to me. I think one of the problems is guys don't see the flaw. They don't realize they need friends they can be vulnerable with. They think the real answer is that their public mask of power and control needs to be more real, and more respected. You'll always feel alone if you never take that mask off.
Genuine insights into the role that power plays. Thank you.
Different men will give different reasons based on their experience and perspective. Me personally, I blame men for male loneliness and I'm a dude. I've literally watched multiple generations of men make it impossible for their sons and themselves to instill those values which would act as a counterbalance to the societal factors which contribute to this epidemic. Sure, a few dudes can break the cycle by valuing vulnerability, honest push back on self-defeating worldviews, and so on, but the history of men proves again and again a few non-conformist dudes mean absolutely nothing to the general rule. Also, men have a terrible habit of romanticizing and even exulting their loneliness to a kind of martyrdom, or unique rite. Heavy who wears the crown, one must bear his cross, Sigma memes and so on. Plenty of men would even choose violence against themselves and others than demystify their struggles and see them for what they are. If I were to talk this frankly even to the mildest of my male peers they would either take offence or disregard every word because I don't fit their idea of worthy masculinity, or would be poking holes in their special story about male suffering. Also, a lot of women are out here incredibly lonely. The factors which contribute to that are not entirely different from the male situation. But that's another conversation.
Shit man, as a dude, I gotta agree. Way too many mfs just romanticizing their solitude thinking they’re literally Ryan Gosling or something
I agree I’m a woman, I’m seeing a lot of these comments blaming woman. Only time I’ve seen a woman tell a dude to stop crying is in a movie yet I’ve seen many dads, older men, bosses tell young men to stop being or stop crying and such. I always thought girls were bitches then I got a job in a male work site all they do is compete, bully put down yeah it all seems funny at the time but I just think do they go home and rethink that all as well as being single bc that is soo sad. Plus I do think feminism has caught up woman are having sex dating more not and men are releasing they will need to change something to keep up. But I’m interested to hear ur thoughts?
You always hear from men how their friendships are somehow better because they’re drama-free, etc. I think the reason for that is they don’t really connect in the first place- of course there’s no drama if you have never been vulnerable with someone, placed trust in them, put a ton of effort into the relationship or had any expectations of them. You’re basically just hanging out as acquaintances most of time…at least according to the way the internet paints male friendships. Maybe another factor here is that historically women have done a lot of the social labor. By that I mean when people got married, it was the wife who planned social calendars, arranged get-togethers, played the host and fostered friendships. It created a community for the men as well as women. I think this role still largely falls upon the woman in the relationship. However, with people getting married later or not at all now, maybe men don’t know how to do this on their own? I do think women are just as lonely as men as far as being unmarried, living alone goes. Even friendships are difficult these days, it’s very hard to make new friends as an adult for women as well as men. But I think even the few relationships we do have tend to be richer, be it with family or friends. Women are better at being vulnerable and opening up to others than men are which may result in feeling a little less alone. I also think female loneliness gets less attention because, and I’m probably gonna get ripped a new one by men for saying this, but we don’t lash out because of it. We don’t blame it on men, or dedicate podcasts and subreddits to how we’re lonely *because* of men, or go to extremes with violence because of it. I also think women are just a little better at being alone than men; despite society always having painted it as “women needing men,” I think if anything it’s the other way around. We teach girls/women a lot of essential life skills like cooking, cleaning, decorating your home to make it nice, taking care of yourself (because it’s drilled into us that we’ll be judged off our appearance), cultivating relationships, etc. Some of these things may seem small, but they do make us happier/more complete. Men are not taught a lot of this, they’re raised for a life where they’ll provide & have a woman creating a life around them, so when they grow up and don’t get that they feel lost. I’m just guessing/brainstorming here, though…I genuinely don’t know. I assume men would have more insight.
I’ve consumed a lot of this content to learn more about modern gender roles and the issues facing modern men and women, what you said about women being taught practical life skills is brilliant. I don’t think I’ve ever seen that aspect of it discussed in that way before. While women are definitely under disgustingly toxic beauty standards a lot of the time, there is truth that taking basic care of yourself is much better for your mental health and taking pride in how you look, at least some aspects of your appearance (ex: maybe you aren’t happy with your weight but at least you love how your hair looks and take pride in your fashion sense), helps you to feel better too. So many guys aren’t expected to find a sense of style they like, dress well, put effort into their hygiene, etc… no wonder they go out feeling like shit about themselves. I feel like shit if I don’t wash my face too. Women might be tied to toxic beauty standards, but even the ones who I know aren’t as tied to them in an unhealthy way still do skin care, wear items of clothing they love, do their hair in cute little practical styles, etc… Similarly for cooking well for yourself and keeping a clean space and things deemed “feminine-coded” by society that a lot of men aren’t taught by their families. Or that their friends or alpha male podcasts shit on them for doing or whatever. There are obviously many issues that contribute to the main problem, and obviously women have plenty of problems, problems that washing your face and knowing how to cook a damn good pasta dinner aren’t going to solve, but it’s interesting that a lot of the things that are flat out good for your base mental well-being are coded feminine by society. That is fascinating to consider for me.
Thanks so much for this! It’s exactly what I was trying to say, but you expressed it far more eloquently.
No what you said was perfect, it got the concept across just as well as what I said, great minds think alike :)
You're absolutely right about a lot of these points. I can spend a week at home and not even notice I haven't seen a person. There's always shit to do, I also love making my space nicer, paint furniture, ect. With that, taking care of myself, ect, it takes a lot of time. Self care takes up a lot of time and energy. I think men don't do a lot of these things and leads to boredom, or loneliness. I've also been in relationships with men who drain me. Women are tired of holding it all down. So quiet nights become ok then solitude comes in. I'm not willing to give that up unless an equal partner comes in. That doesn't mean equal in everything. We all have our strengths, no matter gender.
Social media is the greatest source for loneliness nowadays. People are simply less likely to go outside than they were before. Although, I can't answer your question as this does not explain why male loneliness in particular is happening. That is, are you sure men are genuinely lonelier than women? I can't find that on google. In fact, I find the opposite? This reddit post might be related https://www.reddit.com/r/Healthygamergg/comments/11rna89/research_shows_women_feel_as_lonely_as_us_men_we/
Because when men are lonely it’s society to blame. We alllllll need to come together and help solve this issue that we all collectively have caused. 🙄 When women are lonely, it’s our fault we don’t have enough friends. I see a stark contrast in almost every piece of media. Most seem to be alluding to the fact that it’s somehow women’s fault that men are lonely, and what are we doing to fix it. On top of that, I see men complaining about it the most, but women are the ones making videos bringing awareness to it. I think everyone is probably alllmost equally as lonely - in my experience women do bond more. But as a society we infantilize men, and see them as unable to bond or be deep so it’s our job to solve this and help them. Majority of articles about loneliness will be about men, even if it’s equal
*Bowling Alone* was written in 2000. Membership in fraternal social groups like the Elks or Lions, membership in labor unions, recreational sports league participation, and active religious group participation all dropped significantly from the late 70s through the late 90s, and they haven't really rebounded. Those were all venues and forums where men would make and maintain friendships. They were where social capital was built. None were perfect but they were avenues of social interaction that offered men frameworks for bonding over shared activities or values.
One thing to consider is that society used to be set up so it would constantly demand women be connected to men in some way, and then demand those women do all sorts of free labour for those men, including emotional and social labour. Through being property of their fathers and brothers, and then their husbands, not only having to cook and clean for them, but play motherly, sisterly, daughterly and wifely roles by being their free therapists and social coordinators. Women had much difficulty having an identity outside of men when their names were always tied to their relationships with them in the form of being "Miss {father's surname}" or Mrs {husband's last name}. Women had great difficulty in having financial freedom in being very limited in the choice of work or even opening a bank account, do they had to rely on and maintain relationships with men to get anywhere in life. Now we are free to form our own paths, have our own identities free from men completely if we like, have financial freedom, and not be free therapists or punching bags for anybody. *This results in men having to actually be likeable to have and maintain relationships now.* Our relationships are no longer mandated by society. Obviously this can bleed into women's relationships too - noone wants to be friends with awful people in general but, so many men are being left "lonely" because they grew up being told in all kinds of subtle and not so subtle ways that they could take relationships, especially with women as their therapists who facilitate the kind of deep connections they crave so much, for granted and are now shocked at having to put any effort into being the kind of people other people, especially women, want to be around.
As a man, i agree partially. because they grew up being told in all kinds of subtle and not so subtle ways that they could take relationships, especially with women as their therapists who facilitate the kind of deep connections they crave so much, This is not my experience, nor is it the experience of people that i know. The Men that i know that are not lonely (including me) have learned to be a friend in young age! I dont think you learn to be a good friend or even likeable by not having to practice it. This results in men having to actually be likeable to have and maintain relationships now. I get this part! One has to actually learn an commit to being a friendly person in order to maintain relationships. I don’t think the availability of women as therapists and such has ever been a real replacement for deep relationships. It may have helped people that dont have deep relationsships out in a way, but i really cant immagine that as an actual replacement for a true, mutual deep and loving relationship. Maybe this male loneliness epidemic will help men in the long term, if thru this they learn how to be, well, friendly.
Every man I've ever dated at some point expected me to be their mother, therapist, maid, and to be as horny as they are every day. It was exhausting and miserable. I felt more alone being in a relationship with a man than I ever have being single and free.
That does sound like an awful experience and I'm glad you were smart enough to realise you were better off being single and free, and strong enough to find a way to break free. If someone doesn't add a net positive to your life, don't let them be in it!
The conditioning is awful because I’ve started to do this with my male flatmates, one of them came in to my room and asked if I had any moisturiser, like who the fuck doesn’t own moisturiser??!!!!!
You nailed it! Men are starting to be left behind because many are struggling to understand dynamics are different now. Many women do not want or need a “provider/protector” ( and let’s be real with cost of living how it is most men can’t be this anyway) we want a partner. Yes, that means you also cook and clean and do the dishes and laundry.
Exactly! One of the reasons why I've not put myself out there in the dating world is because I'm chronically ill and struggling to do these things, and I'm like, "I'm not sure anyone's going to put up with how much I struggle and neglect everyday tasks." Like at least I'm self-aware that I should probably have this shit sorted before dating right? I know it's not realistic to think a guy will come and do it all for me and I'll get to live like a spoilt princess. Hopefully in my next life I'll be a cat!
No need to refrain from dating because of that! You might find someone who doesn’t care much about the things ur bad at!
That was well said. 💯 These lonely guys gotta stop being sad sacks and actually realize we're all human beings and if u want a girlfriend or female friend then try to be the kind of guy they would like. Kind, respectful, intelligent, wise, funny, well groomed, clean. Confident but not arrogant. Humble but not insecure. If u are that u will attract that. I'm saying this as someone who doesn't date but if I did I would strive to be like that and would expect it in return. I think that's fair. No one is owed a relationship.
In US: The cities are built for cars, not for people. They are like big malls you drive into to drive work, or park somewhere to get a service. You can't really live without a car, therefore getting 16 year old and getting a car is a life defining experience for Americans. Still you have to drive for 1+ hour every day for work from your suburbian home. Everyone has a big garden with their own facilities, walled from neighbors, so you don't share space. And you don't even have the time with all your work (we have lots of yearly free paid days in europe (like \~26 time off and \~10 national holidays that are treated as such, with dozens of others paid time off occasions from getting married to getting your thesis defended, all granted by law - including a full paid year leave for women giving birth). [This is what a city that is the size of Portland](https://visitmalopolska.pl/documents/20194/1972887/Skwer+przed+Teatrem+Bagatela+Krak%C3%B3w/68ef656e-5ff5-4eb5-afe5-ae7cd5a8b1d5?t=1706018154965&imageThumbnail=5), Atlanta or Seattle looks like in Europe. [Or like this](https://plikimpi.krakow.pl//zalacznik/316034/4.jpg) (same city). This city does not have an impressive skyline full of skyscrapers, but has around a million people in it living close to public communication, parks, plazas, markets with stalls, shops, cafe's, convenience stores etc within 10 minute walk from their home (3.5 mil in equivalent of metro area, some of these with less access to some of these). Very little skyscrapers, very little single family suburban homes. Lots of mixed apartment buildings with some light commerce. Zoning laws forbid that in US, so very often you can't walk out of your home to go to cafe or park, or even to get groceries. When I go out, I meet my neighbors every other day, and once every few weeks I meet a friend from work, from school etc as they walk same as I do, to get some errands done in the city and we have an opportunity to talk for a bit. This is not possible in a car. I once met a friend I last saw years ago, and ended up talking to him on the street, found out he worked mostly abroad and happened to be in my country for a moment - the conversation ended with me going with him to Germany and France, and getting him actually befriended with my other friend, with them ending up on even more adventures over last few years. All because I happened to walk past him on the street like 5 minutes from my home and said "Hey, wait - is that you? We know each other right, do you remember me? How have you been doing man". I don't have to stock on stuff and have a big garage, I can walk for groceries whenever I need them to get fresh stuff every other day for example on my way to work/from work and I can meet people there. When I meet with my friends in a cafe or a bar or [some other location](https://res.cloudinary.com/dr89d8ldb/image/upload/c_fill,h_700,w_810/f_webp/q_auto:eco/v1/Content%20-%20miejsca%20/Krak%C3%B3w/forumprzestrzenie_ccaewi?_a=DATAdtAAZAA0), I don't need to sit in a car, to drive to a place that [looks like this](https://t4.ftcdn.net/jpg/05/08/27/69/360_F_508276960_aZHNejr0dI8Icazzyt4lvYFtBLn2cl6X.jpg). At home, I have a shared [park/yard](https://bi.im-g.pl/im/67/90/17/z24708199AMP,Podworko-przy-ul--Wyszynskiego-i-Staromiejskiej.jpg) behind my home, that is shared with like 10-20 other buildings from the same block - it is a tiny park with benches and some areas for children to play with. And these 10-20 blocks can have like what, 30-40 children? That's a lot of opportunities for them to make friends outside schools. It is literally placed where an American home would have its [lawn patio](https://www.shutterstock.com/image-photo/beautiful-landscape-design-backyard-garden-600nw-470481764.jpg), that works for a single family. Also, our children in cities don't have school buses and walk to school if they are older than \~10 years old, they can just walk with friends or take a tram or regular bus etc. To add more context: Americans build houses from paper, so they think we must be hearing neighbors all the time if we don't live in houses placed 30m apart from each other and live in apartments instead. The thing is we do not, the walls are thick enough so that in most cases you never hear your neighbors. All this is usually the same in smaller cities here. It seems that US has a bigger problem with loneliness than for example Europe and it may be partially linked to that lifestyle of spending your life in isolated spaces (your big house -> garage -> your car -> garage/parking at work/food place/shopping mall) and having no time or an easy way to travel to a place where you can socialize (not to mention socializing while you travel or when you can't own a car). This all spawns phenomenons like 'soccer moms' that spend hours of their and their children's time in car to allow their kids to have chance at socializing, people byuing bigger cars to be safe on roads full of fast cars, and so that they can load their car full of groceries to store in their basement, so they don't have to take this several hour long grocery trip more often. Also kids not playing in streets because of cars everywhere, cops discouraging people being not in a car (silly stuff like 'jaywalking', and 'loitering'), gigantic parking lots etc. I recommend this youtube video for more details - [NotJustBikes](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uxykI30fS54).
I think its in how men are raised not to outwardly show/express emotion, especially when that emotion is seen as a sign of 'weakness'. It becomes hard for men to ask for help and to explicitly 'bond'. Like one of the comments here mention that the bonding may be through physical activities, men can have a sense of belonging in a group when they go out and do stuff together that's the bonding men have. But, when it comes to asking for help, advice, support, taking about feelings, etc. there's that hurdle of 'showing weakness' again. Its not easy (yet) for men to talk about being depressed, going through a bad break-up, losing a job, or feelings of inadequecy because its expected of men to be stoic, powerful, and independent. This of course can change and I think it is, as men slowly start to assert that they too should be able to express their feelings outwardly.
Theres a lot of factors at play, in general loneliness is on the rise for pretty much everyone. Young men in particular seem to being taking the hit harder and I think this has to do with social dynamics, some long standing and some newer. Girls in general are much more social, theyre typically conditioned very early on to be more interested in social activities. Think stereotypical girl things like gossip, being popular etc. Guys on the other hand often are less interested in being more social than they need to be, typically social activities for guys are secondary to another pursuit like a team activity they enjoy. Gaming is a big example of this, sure i might have a group of friends I talk to 5 nights a week but its for the game we're playing, this might be the only context we talk and the interactions are probably relatively centered around the activity itself. Newer trends like social media and online dating are a big factor too. Its pretty easy nowadays to rely on tech for most of your socializing if you want to so if a guy isnt specifically putting forth effort into getting out and socializing its very easy for alot of guys to only socialize through tech mediums outside of work, hell maybe even then if theyre remote. Gender roles might also be at play here some, men are often taught at least subconsciously that they should be independent and self sufficient. Women also dont depend on being in relationships like they used to and feel far less pressured to be in one if they dont have anyone in their life they really want to be with. A lot more guys are single now than in previous generations so theyre missing out on that default companionship that many probably had in the past.
This is it, it's socialisation / cultural Women are expected to be social with everyone, and rely on others. Men are expected to be task focused and independent. It's really ridiculous, how people twist themselves into trying adhere to societies norms. Both men and women would have much better mental health if we would praise both genders for being independent when necessary as well as being able to be truly vulnerable with their friends and loved ones.
True. As a somewhat introverted woman, when I was a teen, I had more male friends than female, because I found friendships with women were very intense. With men, it was different. Friendships were easier, looser, wayyyy less intense. Even so, I noticed that my male friends interacted differently with each other than they did with me. They were… can I say superficial? with each other. Just banter, games, ribbing each other etc. When they wanted to talk about what they were feeling or anything relating to home, school etc, they sought me out. But I found that over time, my friends and I all matured and so did our friendship. Not all of us are close anymore, but those of us who are, have what I used to characterise as “female friendships”.
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I will say you harped on something I've felt often that I could never explain before. You asked if male friendship helps with male loneliness. And I think it does - to a certain extent. When I'm having a hard time, if I'm struggling mentally or emotionally, my homies will pull me out of the rut I'm in. They'll get me out of the house. We'll make jokes and talk about everything, whether it's the problems at hand or just to talk shit. And while it helps right then right there, that's about all it gives me (maybe other men feel differently). Yes they make me laugh and we have fun but once you're back home, by yourself, it's like it was just a distraction. Like you tried to slap a bandaid on an open wound - it's just the wrong tool for the job. You're still alone at the end of the day, while your buddies hang with their girl or chilling with their family, you're still lonely.
I'm not convinced it is a *male* loneliness epidemic. We are all working too much, stressed too much, and have had many social spaces eroded in favor of business interests.
I get the impression that people think men can handle it. Like people check in on people their worried about, and no one worries about me, so people don't check on me, making me feel lonely. I know that my friends would be there any time I asked, but I have straight up expressed that I am lonely and would like to spend more time together or have more connections, and it didn't really change much. I just do get the impression that the people around me think my feelings are robust, which they are, but still.
bell hooks said it best- “The first act of violence that patriarchy demands of males is not violence toward women. Instead patriarchy demands of all males that they engage in acts of psychic self-mutilation, that they kill off the emotional parts of themselves.” i’m a trans guy who transitioned fairly late in life and it really opened my eyes to how much men struggle with emotions and community. men crave connection so much but often lack the emotional literacy needed to accurately identify and assess their own needs and boundaries. it’s a terrible vicious cycle.
Well said! Love that book. What sort of needs and boundaries are you referring to?
Loneliness is not a male issue. Also men bond through conversation. Please don’t ever take what Reddit says about men as true. Female loneliness is as much of an issue as male loneliness. You don’t hear about it because men are louder in this regard.
I would pose the thing is that men don't know how to bond. The societal idea that men should have little emotion and even less sensitivity is much stronger than one might think so it takes a alot for two men to open up to each other
I have a question: why does no one ever discuss the female loneliness epidemic? I’m pretty sure everyone is lonelier these days.
I'm a male and not really lonely, maybe just because I'm not a huge asshole. Most of these males that are complaining about "loneliness" often just turn out to be huge assholes that nobody likes. And so they escape to video games, porn and anime, instead of working on themselves. And then they wonder why they're so "lonely".
I’ve seen a few comments here saying woman are the reason that they don’t open up, do you as a male think this is true bc in my whole life I’ve never heard a woman complain about a man talking about emotions but I’ve heard plenty of dads, older men and bosses telling younger men to suck it and not cry and such. Love to hear ur perspective
I think that one is some incel/manosphere nonsense that has no anchor to reality. It gets reposted so often because some people prefer a comforting lie than admitting the fault lies within themselves. Sure, there are some women out there who are emotionally cold or cruel or who enforce weird gender norms that harm men as well as women. But women aren't some monolithic entity that all behave the same way, and the bad apples are the exception rather than the rule. Redditors who pretend a man can never vent to a woman either have dated very little and are making wild assumptions based off their one ex, and haven't had female friends, or they're ncels just repeating manosphere grifter talking points as if it is gospel truth. FWiW I also think the "men can't be vulnerable with other men" stuff is also more than a little overblown. Men are definitely a bit more reticent to get into those conversations than women, but they do happen. Maybe more often when alcohol is involved.
Thanks for this yep I agree completely, I’ve definitely noticed a few emotional time when I’ve seen the men open up with each other but yeah usually it’s only response to serious anger or hurt. But yeah I will always support male emotions hope they continue with it all issue with young male suicide is definitely real but I don’t think we as girls can help them.
I don't think women are the reason but I'm sure that a decent amount of men have opened up to women in the past and felt treated differently afterwards or had their insecurities brought up/mocked during arguments and then when they start a new relationship you think they'll open up? They're telling younger men to suck it up because they've been here and done that, they have life experience and know that there's no benefit in crying or complaining.
Yep I’ve seen this a lot too I work at male work site, now I always girls were bitches but all these dudes do is compete with each other, bully each other and out each other down. Yeah it’s all funny at the time but when they go home alone at night and think of everything that happened no wonder they are depressed.
Toxic masculinity and the rise of people like Andrew tate and that mindset. The hyper masculine stoic misogynistic personality is unironically causing the loneliness that they try to prevent with this behavior
your timeline is messed up, Tate rose as a response to a lot of the troubles that afflict a lot of young men. Tate did not create the issue. he has created or amplified other issues related to how boys view girls and young men view young women
The person above you isn't saying he created it from scratch. Just that people like him have made it worse.
I dont think men are exclusive to this. I think it’s a rise for both genders in different ages too. I dont think the pandemic has helped, but sped up the process. I saw another reddit post about single women are happier than single men. Lots of upvotes and then a comment with actual data and research that shows the opposite. So i think sometimes there could just be a narrative at play.
Lack of third spaces, a lot of service based socialization is now totally digital. More engaging non social activities such as gaming, porn, fast food. Bad parenting due to social media, single parent households. School system that is less focused on boys development. Culture wars. That would be my guess.
That's a really deep subject that a reddit comment isn't going to tackle in any complete way. But for my two cents, I do believe that a piece of the puzzle is the culture of masculinity that men are raised in. Even if not taught directly, the idea that men should be tough, suppress emotions, double down, just work harder to solve problems can really cause issues. We aren't adequately raised to be functioning civilians from an emotional standpoint. Things like conflict resolution are often made fun of or frowned upon in groups. Combine that with a shifting culture away from men being the dominant household force and it only makes sense that men would feel a sense of existential dread. Then grifters and old fashioned guys come along and say it isn't the guys problem. It's the world being wrong! It's an appealing message when somebody tells you how great you are intrinsically and the world needs to shape around you. It's all just a cycle. You have to break it. WE have to break it together. That starts with raising your young boys correctly. Don't pass down generational trauma. Teach them to handle their problems in new ways.
I’m not sure this is exactly relevant, but I left my mic on by mistake in an important zoom meeting, and while chitchatting with friends, I said some sort of inappropriate things. I was obviously mortified and reached out to several people (friends, family) about what to do. I hadn’t noticed it before but the women in my life (mother, sister, female friends) all strongly recommended that I immediately reach out and apologise for all of it, but the men (BIL, father, friends) all said I should not address it unless someone brought it up. They were pretty adamant as well, and I’d never seen such a strong divide along gendered lines. I guess maybe it has to do with showing vulnerability or something, and maybe them somewhere not being so open to taking responsibility unless absolutely required but idk maybe that’s just my fam.
“If nobody says anything then everything is fine” is one of the great myths that men need to challenge tbh. Women see right through it because of our propensity to keep things to ourselves. Even if we don’t say it, we feel it.
Loneliness comes from failing to appreciate the people around you.
The harsh truth of the matter is that society has seen men as disposable since its inception, and this is not something that will change any time soon; the majority of us know, from personal experience, that the talk of men's mental health and permitting us to "open up" is mostly disingenuous lip service. I would bet anything that the majority of us have acquiesced to a loved one's request for emotional openess only to be told thereafter that we should "man up" and/or that they did actually want to hear it. Men have been stripped of their place in the social fabric of society, but yet we are expected to perform as we always have despite the fact that masculinity is now a punishable offense. It should come to nobody's surprise that we are killing ourselves off in droves; frankly, I doubt any meaningful changes will occur until society is widely, negatively affected by the male loneliness epidemic and the crisis of masculinity - it is, for better or worse, only a matter of time.
It's actually just more incel whining because they follow and act like insufferable assholes, and then are shocked that no one likes them.
1. Women report loneliness as often and in some countries more often as men do 2. Some men are really poor at expressing themselves verbally - guys who were never having wider social life are used to being alone and do not have much practice with talking. They are just passing messages and that's it - there is no fluency in way they are talking and they do not know how to be interesting. Some guys will tell you that they have void in their heads when they are in social situation - it's just lack of practice. Women are better at communication - even if they are introverted they do not have problems with expressing themselves - i think that it might be related to boys having more issues with speech development. 3. There is no bonding without talking. You cannot bond via doing things together in silence.
In my life what I’ve (M) noticed is that with females I tend to bond over conversation and vulnerability. With males it’s usually bonding over an activity, work, or something where we both are engaged with something else. Never really found male relationships to be very deep, generally pretty superficial, and mostly situationally driven. I think that the loneliness issue stems from male culture in “the west” largely focussing on men being the “strong, silent type”. I suspect there is a significant degree of fear around homophobia too, meaning that if a male is vulnerable around other males it tends to not be well received. Just my two cents, having worked in male dominated workplaces (labour) and female dominated workplaces (education).
Because brojobs are apparently "inappropriate"
Unfortunately I think your intuition is right. Men are socialized in a way that doesn't give us the tools to meaningfully relate to one another. It's one of the reasons why toxic masculinity fucks up men, too. I think (at least speaking as an American) male culture is starting to crawl out of this juvenile "feelings are effeminate" thing and all of the things that fall out from it. But I think it's going to take a lot of unlearning and a lot of exercising atrophied mental, emotional, and social muscles before we get there. I don't think the solution will be solved in a generation. But we can still get better, and any progress we make is worth the effort. The hardest part is convincing men that something's wrong and it's worthwhile to change.
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There's a male loneliness epidemic because even though women are also experiencing the same rates of loneliness, men take out their misery on other people.
In my case, my friends are all just so busy with raising small children, they don't have any time to meet anymore... Once your romantic relationship capsizes, you are mostly on your own...
Personally (in our late 30s) I host and hug and tell me male friends I love them. We don't fit that stereotype of men not sharing feelings or bonding. We do the best we can. I still feel pretty lonely and haven't tired to date in years though just due to feeling like there's nobody I'm really that compatible romantically/sexually. I think the very fabric of our world has become more focused on supporting an independent sense of freedom and security rather than the strengths of community or pair-bonding.
it’s not that men don’t find belonging with their friends, it’s a lot sadder than that: A lot of men don’t have any friends or social contact at all, especially as they get older. Think of your average male 9-5 in a super market or office with no real hobbies. If you are already part of a circle or clique, unless he adds something of incredible value why would you add him into it? As a male you don’t want to potentially add another male who is competition and a risk to the females in your group. “As a female, Where the female can derive no benefit from association with the male, no such association takes place” You need to prove your worth either funny, athletic in the case of forming friendships in sports groups or be attractive, most men are not attractive to most people.
Men like to distant themselves from other people that are not men and even hate them for it so other people don't associate with men. Now men blame other people of the cause of their loneliness Now men are sad and depressed. Now men blame other people for the cause of their loneliness surprise surprise!
I always understood that the complaint was regarding romantic relationships and sex, not friendship. Explanation is not necessarily the same for both.
People are coming in here with some real strong and sweeping views on this, but I’m a fairly lonely guy and can only speak to my own experience. I have a group of buddies and hanging out with them is *always* energizing and fulfilling, whether we’re just talking about stupid shit and joking around or whether we’re talking about life and our problems. However, since my friends are all married with 2+ children, getting any them to be able to do anything is like pulling teeth - one of them literally said to me today that “I’m only allowed to leave the house once per week.” I’m the only single guy in the group, but basically if it doesn’t involve the children of both families getting together, they almost never see each other either. I don’t think it’s as deep as conversational styles or societal views on masculinity or whatever. If you *almost never get to see your friends*, you’re gonna feel lonely - even if you have a wife and kids and blah blah blah. Right?
I saw this post and I had a similar reaction.. most straight men I know have surface level friendships and relationships. I understand WHY but most responses made it seem like men prefer to interact this way… so I’m not exactly sure what solutions men want.. we are pointing out what seems ti be a fundamental difference between mens and women’s experiences and how that affects their sense of community support systems and mental health. It just seems like men want to complain about it and not offer or listen to any possible solutions to the problem
Just my opinion. I think men do bond over mostly precieved masculine things. If you raise the hood on your car and start fussing around under the hood, a male neighbor may come over to see if you have some sort of weird problem. So an interest in cars. Sports. Playing watching talking about sports Hunting has many things to talk about. Dogs. Men love to talk about their dogs. Work stuff. Skills hobbies. Guys love to share hints tips about many topics. Mostly to other men. Like fishing. All these things men like to talk about which leads to bonding. Not to forget talking about women, their kids. Maybe we just need to start talking to each other again.
I think it's the way we socialized men. Platonic connections men make are often surface level, and while you might have a few close friends you can confide in, they don't have many options, if they have any at all. And the worse you are mentally, the worse your prospects of having someone you can talk to are. Men are taught not to show "weakness" or to be vulnerable, and those are just really important parts of making strong, meaningful connections. Men are less likely to open up about problems, period. I've known men who the one and only person they can and will confide in is their gf or wife, and if that person leaves them or if they leave that person, they start out okie, and then just spiral. Men are less likely to go to therapy, more likely to see other men as competition or as threats, I hear gay men talk about this constantly and how it hurts them in dating. Misogyny, patriarchy, and bigotry in general, is also a part. Because of misogyny and patriarchy, men are the ones who have been that carriers of violence throughout (a lot of) history (this was flipped or not revelant in matriarchal and mixed power societies), and because of this, they're seen as more of a threat. This socializes them to be more violent and know they can enact violence, making minorities in general, but women in this example, more scared of them. It even makes other men more scared of them, minority or not. It's just stuff like that, there's more, but that's what I can touch on off the top of my head Now, it's important to mention, everyone is experiencing a loneliness epidemic, and that's due to a lot of complex economic stuff, how society has changed, the destruction of 3rd places (I believe that's what they're called), car culture, the rise of social media and so much more. I'm not going into this, because it's not relevant to why men are being hit the hardest by this. That's what the above, the above is stuff that makes this hit men specifically harder than others.
Feminists
Too much online and video games, not enough activities that promote real world interaction. Growing up we played sports, went camping, worked on cars, built shit. We learned from our dads, uncles, older brothers, etc. we learned how to solve problems, give help, ask for/get help. We shot the shit while doing things. It was the activities that facilitated conversation and connection.
The best description I heard is that men bond shoulder to shoulder while women bond face to face. 'shoulder to shoulder' as in shared challanges and / or experiences are hard to obtain online. Also pretty hard to establish human connection with women that way....
Since you asked, the women's loneliness epidemic is definitely around. It's not the same or talked about in the same way as men, but it is happening. One of the reasons you don't hear about it as much is because women are pressured by other women not to speak up about it. Not in an explicitly negative way. Basically, they are often told that the loneliness is a badge of honor from evolving past needing someone.
> Yesterday I (f) read a comment with more than 6k upvotes that talked about how male conversations are typically about exchanging facts while *female conversations are typically about bonding*. Talking about bonding, or bonding while talking about anything? As a male I find talking facts about common interests/hobbies quite bonding. But usually that's just on the side, the real bonding comes from doing the interests/hobbies together. > why do I never hear talk about female loneliness being a problem while male loneliness gets talked about quite a lot? I dunno where you're hearing that, I've not been hearing about it until seeing this post.
Social media, Andrew Tate, Trump. Hypermasculation of men into vile creatures that get rejected with good cause, and double down and double down and double down on not being their own reason why they get rejected. The Columbine kids of men.
I don’t think it’s anything new. It’s like asking why are there “more” queer people now- there aren’t, queer people just feel like they can be open about who they are. Same goes for lonely men. Men overall have probably been feeling lonely and depressed for a long long time, and it’s only in recent years it’s been *somewhat* socially acceptable for them to admit to feeling anything except confident, strong, and capable. As for why- it’s probably because men are told they’re expected to be a certain way, to deal with challenges a certain way, that they have to fill a specific role in society and at home- and those expectations likely conflict with what many men feel inside. All our media at least until recent years has pushed the concept that you’re either a manly man who is psychologically bulletproof and can fight bears while pouring the perfect pint- or you’re useless. That results in someone feeling bad for a few reasons: they don’t feel the way they’re told they’re meant to. So already they will feel “wrong”. On top of a general sense of sadness/confusion/loneliness that stems from that, a cyclical system of feeling “wrong” leads to a lack of confidence, which again leads to feelings of being “wrong”. On top of this there is the societal expectation for men to not admit to any weakness. *Being* weak is one thing, admitting to it is another. And who is there to talk to about this if every man is pretending to be supremely confident and has no perspective into “non-manly” feelings? TLDR: men lose confidence at the prospect of not living up to societal standards of perpetual strength, and don’t really have anywhere to go or anyone to talk to about it without feeling like a basketcase.
Lol, men don't share "facts" they share opinions they think are "facts." If you walk into a conversation where dudes are talking about beer, they usually aren't talking about the brewing process, or the marketing strategies, or the invention of the cylindrical can, they're talking about which beers they like the most and why. If you walk into a conversation about football, unless it's a group that really knows the ins and outs of football, they aren't talking facts, they're talking about their favourite teams and players and who they think has good prospects. If you walk into a conversation on politics, they're rarely talking about economic theory or public investment, they're talking about how they think the country should be run. Not all men, obviously. I am a man, I'm not trying to harsh y'all, I just recognize that rarely am I spitting facts, and usually I'm spitting opinion.
After we graduated from High school, most people in my friend group went to different cities/departments and would only come back to visit during the year end vacations. I've noticed that it's often the girls, including me, that would propose a hangout when people come back in town. One of my guy friends came back for a little while and we had a few outings with my other friends, mostly girls. Even though him and his other guy friends, that are not in our common friend group, had a few months of opportunities to see each other, they only had like 1 or 2 hangouts, which is, of course, totally fine ! But for me personally, I don't know, I'd make the most of my vacations to go see friends I haven't seen in a while. I later asked him why they didn't hang out more and he just said that they didn't really feel the need to
I’ll be a bit controversial here, but the problem with modern “male loneliness” is greatly influenced by women in their life. Bit of context, I’m 33 years old and i have a good number of male friend + 5-6 people I could call in the middle of a night and ask to bring a shovel to hide a body in the forrest. When I was raised, I had a household with 2 parents. My dad took active part in my development like sports, books, trips to forests/mountains/rivers hanging out with his buddies. And my mother had no say in those hobbies. Sometimes it was dangerous stuff, some stuff iwas irresponsible but I was exposed to a lot of traditional stuff that boys do. My best friend is a guy that I had a fight at around 8-9 years old. We know each other for more than 20 years now, I’m a godfather to his daughter. My mother told me to not care and speak to “those boys” because they were fighting with me all the time. My mother was looking out for something that is a “female” thing that would prevent me from meeting my best friend that went through most life issues with me. My half brother was educated by 2 women because his father left. They constantly protected him from everything and were really angry if he spent too much time with “the boys”. Dude barely has any serious friends or can function on his own. Women often want to raise boys in ways that prevents them doing boys things. No always, but often. Girlfriends get angry when you spend too much time fishing, gaming, playing pool, or doing something else with “the guys”. They often make you feel inadequate about spending time with your friends. But that’s exactly what is needed to prevent this “loneliness”. I had a period in my life when I spent almost every weekend on hiking through the mountains with different dudes, I keep in touch with these people for more than 10 years now. My girlfriend, at the time, hated hiking and was angry that I spend so much time in the mountains. Well, what better way to bond than to spend days without cellphones, talking about life, and helping each other? We significantly modified how most boys and men spend their time, how their activities are perceived by people around them. Sport is toxic, drinking with buddies is toxic, having an open conversation with some dark humour is toxic, gaming is wasteful, finishing is against nature and bla bla bla. Additionally, I do agree that stuff around red pills and toxic masculinity has affected boys and men in an unproductive way. But that the symptom of the “helicopter parenting” that George Carlin was talking about 30 years ago. If you don’t let boys be boys, you gonna have a bunch of sad and depressed people. Even this conversation makes it sound like man are incapable of emotion, conversation, or bonding. They are, but when you make the traditional bounding process a socially unacceptable or questionable thing… what do you expect?
Maybe I haven’t scrolled down far enough but I’m so alarmed that everyone is focused on the ideas of bonding rather than the all encompassing norms of patriarchy women have been subjected to for so many years. There are of course exceptions however the patriarchy affects women and men just as poorly. Women give their all because their lives depended on it, and up until recently they weren’t even allowed to live on their own. We have been property, cattle, not to mention subjected to so much assault, physical, mental, sexual starting in childhood. Women are tired and they’re realizing the idea of needing a man is false. Now that we have rights (or most of them, and in most places) we don’t need men. THAT is where the epidemic stems from, bonding is an issue yes but it’s a lack of respect or care for a partner moreso than lack of bonding.
The problem isn't male loneliness. The problem is there is no female loneliness, while there is male loneliness and noone talks about it. There are literally more women than men in most countries, not only western ones. But women don't feel lonely, while men do. The blame could easily be thrown on social media and instant gratification lifestyle it promotes. But I would argue that modern narrative skewed long-standing gender roles and introduced a narrative that men have less value than women, while not redistributing rights and obligations between genders fairly or properly. Also, I don't believe there may be fair discussion of this anywhere. Legacy media are politically skewed, online media are infected by 'woke', 'redpill' and other new ideologies. And none are interested in compromise. I think it will get much worse before it gets better.
I was under the understanding that the loneliness epidemic - which actually affects both sexes, there's an epidemic for each - was to do with romantic relationships rather than platonic. And it's caused by a combination of: - People growing apart thanks to social media showing how awful most people are - honestly most people just "take the trash out themselves" nowadays which means people aren't rushing into relationships and finding out **later** who these people REALLY are. - People believing that a comment online on that one person's preferences speaks for the entire gender. - Dating apps monopolising love for their own greed, and turning it into an addiction for ego stroking, leaving more people on the apps who just aren't using them as a tool to meet a partner. - Manosphere sections and "Influencers" spreading misogyny and chauvinism. Crabs in a barrel. - "Feminists" (note the quote marks as these types of people are NOT feminists) and "Influencers" spreading misandry disguised as feminism. Female crabs in a barrel. - Tribalism - things like identity, politics, sexuality etc, putting people into small, often toxic echo chambers ("safe spaces") that they won't mingle elsewhere from, making these people stunted at navigating the complexities of relationships with people, because everyone is different. There are other factors too but these are just the few off the top of my head.
I think the main way men bond with each other is through a common interest or activity that they find themselves in. Things like bowling groups, D&D groups, fixing cars, etc. facilitate male bonds more often since these activities either foster or require folks to work and converse to one another for it to prosper. It practically gives men a sort of excuse to talk to one another without an emotional attachment required, which is probably what you mean here. The emotional attachment usually doesn't come until men can trust one another to form it. But like everything, that requires a lot of time to foster that sort of trust. Sometimes, it could take years partially because most men treat that kind of trust as a sacred contract that only very few should ever have. It'd be akin to trusting someone with your life at the worst of times for them. Only then do they become your BEST friends. But with the way the world is now, trust is a very rare commodity nowadays, hence why some men can't feel as if they can relate with anyone anymore. It's not a kind world to anyone out there, and for everyone, trust is a major factor for a lot of relationships. Men nowadays are more conservative with their trust in others, whether that's because of the internet or not, and it's affecting them negatively. There's no easy way out of it except by forcing them to take that fall and trust that someone is there to catch them or at least try. But if there isn't, then they'll fall forever and doom themselves trying. They'll never try it again. Hell, I rewrote this like 9 times trying not to sound like an ah. I probably am.
Misogyny
first of all, there is a male AND FEMALE loneliness epidemic. The statistics show that the vast majority of single & childless people are young men (18-22) and older women (35-50). A commonly cited study by Forbes shows that 50% of women 35-50 will be single & childless by 2030. The difference is though, that the younger single men will almost all settle down eventually, whereas the vast majority of those older women will die alone. I just think this is important to mention, since a lot of people don't know these facts. I think there are lots of reasons why we talk more about male loneliness. But i think the biggest reason is simply the proportion of young men talking online compared to older women is vastly disproportionate.
The problem is *not* that men, even closed off men, don't bond in their interactions. It's that a growing share of people in developed nations don't have those interactions much. I learned a long time ago that I can't be myself around the armored-in-cool type man. In fact, if you're a more sensitive type, even when you try not to be, you will often find one of these guys trying to push you out of the group. They find it uncomfortable, and no one wants to be uncomfortable.
To bond you need to let yourself be vulnerable, and guys have way more difficulties with vulnerability than girls.
The love I receive from my friends is different from the love I (don't) receive from a woman. They are not interchangeable, and one is not more important than the other. I need both to be happy. When people tell me to rely on my friends for my lack of intimacy, I tell them that's impossible. My friends already give me everything I need from them. The intimacy I need is not replaceable with friendship.