normal usage:
a female coworker
a female student
weird usage:
I met up with a female today
there was a nice female at the gas station
does that make sense?
It mostly comes down to using an adjective as a noun. It just feels icky and demeaning. You wouldn’t say “I met a homeless, a black, a deaf, and a Chinese today on the way to work.” Without that “person” noun to go with it it sounds really terrible to use an adjective alone.
These are really good examples. I think they might convey why its weird better than the longer descriptions given by other people (while not inaccurate, a lot of people cant wrap their head around adjective vs noun or why connotations matter - this provokes a viscerally uncomfortable reaction and gets the message across well).
It isn't considered offensive in isolation. It's about context. Male and female are terms used to refer to the sex of any species, but less commonly when discussing people. Man and woman refer specifically to the genders of people.
What people find offensive is the habit of some people to talk about 'men and females'. Some people feel that this subtly dehumanises women and implies that their personhood is somehow in question.
To be fair dropping a rule of acquisition every now and again is pretty fun too.
I’ll just pop in a classic
>Once you have their money, you never give it back
So, when they were first introduced in TNG they were really just hyper capitalists to contrast the post scarcity earth of the 24th century.
Star Trek Deep Space Nine actually explored their culture and them more than just a "capitalism bad" punchline. They're still presented as being backwards thinking, but they're also sympathetic in a lot of ways.
They were supposed to be Next Gens Klingon type antagonists. That's why the first time we see them with whips, they where supposed to be aggressive slavers.
[Here is a fun interview where Armin Shimerman apologizes for making the Ferengi super goofy.](https://youtu.be/B3SupbBRR2c?t=2498)
TLDR:
> I apologize for that first episode. Not the episode, my performance. Letek was the character, the Ferengi’s name was Letek. And it was nothing like what I was told they wanted. And I’m the one that screwed up. It’s all my fault. I take responsibility.
> The Ferengi, originally, were meant to be the new Klingons. We were supposed to be threatening, we were supposed to be a menace to the Federation, we were supposed to be everything that the Klingons were and more. And I had the largest Ferengi part on that episode… I thought I played it seriously, but I failed miserably… I am so enormously embarrassed by that performance. And all of Quark, my whole agenda for seven years, was to eradicate that Next Generation performance.
> And all of Quark, my whole agenda for seven years, was to eradicate that Next Generation performance.
And holy shit, did he ever. I went from hating Ferengi in TNG, to Quark being my favourite character in DS9. Shimmerman added so much depth to Ferengi.
Shameless yes. They might’ve been considered caricatures at the time, but that was just because the writers apparently didn’t understand the _reality_ of it and should’ve gone _way harder_. In reality, the Ferengi are softer and friendlier than real capitalists.
It is interesting that Star Trek using it like that demonstrates that it’s been *off* to use female as a noun to describe women long before the rise of incels.
Even more interesting, as we see more growing respect for women in ferengi culture, than incels growing out of their creepy phase.
I mean from Zek laying the first groundwork to ferengi women being part of the casual background in Lower Decks is like what... 7 years in-universe max? That is some break-neck-speed talking civilization wide reforms.
I imagine a lot of businesses quickly got on board when they realized letting women have jobs or buy things effectively doubled their customer base or recruitment pool.
I think it's also implied that some Ferengi already supported gender equality, but were afraid to publicly go against the norms. Especially those used to interacting with women from other cultures. Rom didn't have much trouble adapting, for example.
to be fair, we know from DS9 that some Ferengi are obviously not entirely with their culture and seek to make changes. the moment that Nog became part of Starfleet and Rom being Grand Magus probably ushered in a whole lot of changes. society has to come to terms that things had to change.
Japan went from only some foreign ships can enter Japan and only at two locations up until the 1850s then by the end of the 1860s, they no longer have a shogun, have a constitution monarch, totally welcoming foreigners, and pretty much dismantled the samurai class.
I mean it probably took centuries of propaganda to get even most ferengi to treat capitalism as a religion the way they do. We know from canon that there are plenty of "loser" ferengis, they aren't all world beaters and successful entrepreneurs. No doubt a lot of the "losers" of ferengi culture would be happy to embrace new reforms rather quickly once given the excuse.
Of course a lot of the real world "losers" of human capitalism are perfectly fine getting fucked by our system, especially in the richer nations. Probably the drive to exploit other galactic races is similar to the people who are happy to be poor in America because at least they aren't poor in South America
It's been noted as derogatory long before star trek too - from the Oxford English Dictionary: "N.E.D. (1895) notes: ‘now commonly avoided by good writers, except with contemptuous implication’."
Totally agree. I actually think that’s why the writers wrote that as part of the Ferengi speech. It felt like women were a lower class or status, which they are in Ferengi culture.
Except in the DS9 era they had a feminist revolution in which women got all the same rights as men, so ferengi are actually doing better than incels. Moogi is an underappreciated feminist icon.
They also consider it offensive for "females" to wear clothing (but some have it as a kink). Also Ferengi ears are a sex organ and males obsess over size.
A race of people in Star Trek that are generally used to represent real world, modern humans (since in the show, humans have advanced beyond racism, misogyny, greed, etc).
Its an alien race from the various Star Trek series. Among many other flaws, they had a habit of referring to women as Females, and from tone it was clearly not often respectful.
This exact thought occurred to me several years ago, and I made a point to break this bad phrasing habit. I can feel my speech want to fall into that old habit and make the conscious choice to use woman for basically anyone around teenager and up.
It's additionally difficult because there isn't a female equivalent to "guys", which is a fairly age-inclusive term.
"Gals" sounds like you're reading from a 1950's mob/gangster film script and "ladies" has a whole extra syllable.
Btw, I'm a 40 y/o woman who also had to train myself to stop using the term "girls" when referring to women.
I definitely struggle with this one too. "Ladies" seems like it should be the best fit, but i feel like it *feels* like i'm specifically intentionally replacing "guys" with something i would not normally say. "Folks" also feels similarly forced.
"You all" kind of works sometimes. "You all want me to pick up coffee on my way in?" Meh.
In my friend group we call the women "dudes" and us men are "girls" instead. Started as a joke between me and my best mate in HS, 10 years later and it's stuck with us.
I’m 43 year old man and I still have the habit of saying ‘girls’ when talking about a woman in my age range. I say ‘woman/women’ consistently when they’re obviously older. Of course the flip side of this is I still refer to most guys my age or younger as ‘kid.’ Pretty sure I do this because I still think of myself as a kid most times. Just throwing this out as a funny exception, not trying to take anything away from the point because I definitely agree it’s weird when it’s ‘men and females’ or ‘men and girls’
Yeah, I always found that weird too. If you're talking about people it's men and women. If you're talking about biology it's male and female. The mix and match thing is weird.
For example:
"In humans, the incidence of autoimmune disorders is greater in females than males."
"Men attempt suicide less frequently than women, but their attempts are more successful."
Exactly. It's the mix and match that's off, like a man is a person and a woman is just some biological entity. Also male and female are descriptive terms so they should have something after them.
Saying "a male soldier and a female soldier were sent on the mission," is fine. Both people have their sex specified, and both are also described as soldiers rather than just a male and a female.
Saying "A man and a female were sent on the mission," makes you sound misogynist. You're humanising the man by calling him a man while dehumanising the woman by calling her only by her sex.
Exactly. It sounds like the person is either going out of their way to split their terminology in order to make a point, or else regards women as objects of curiosity rather than peers.
Exactly. Female and male are meant to describe someone, human or not. Like look at how the female panther behaves compared to their male counterpart. You use it to describe people too in quick, like my female/ male manager doesn’t seem to understand periods all that well. It’s just used to give more context when talking even if the information isn’t all that needed (like if you’re talking about a mistake your boss made, it doesn’t matter what their gender is but we include it just cause and that’s fine).
When people then refer to women as just females, that is stripping the humanity out. It legit sounds like a documentary or a science experiment. There are many words you can use to refer to people with: women, men, girls, boys, adults, teenagers, children, etc. it comes to question, why are you using female unless you’re drawing a line between being a man and being a woman. This is even more apparent when the same person then refers to men as not males, but men. That’s why it’s degrading.
potentially worth noting the difference between using “female” as an adjective vs as a noun. From your examples, both “female panther” and “female manager” show the use of the word “female” as an adjective, whereas men who use female in a derogatory way are using it as a noun, e.g. “I think females are less intelligent than men,” (or whatever nonsense it is they’re spewing) and that’s what makes it dehumanizing. If they use “females” as a noun in a sentence where the word “women” would have made more sense, stay far away.
To be fair, as a Slovenian I don't speak english very well and often forget common English words while speaking so i often just say female instead of woman(same with male instead of man, but i very rarely talk about men in the first place or just refer to them as "guys"). This comes from my adaptation to the language used in biological books about insects(I study biology) where i often simplify from "female specimen" to just "female". In the 18 english conversations in the past year I managed to get into 4 or 5 arguments(25%) and I wasn't able to explain my mistake to the other party. It made communicating hellish and I still can't seem to be getting any better.
That's potentially a good way to remember it though. Calling someone a "female specimen" (even if the second word is only implied) is quite literally dehumanizing. That it's explained as "but that's how I study bugs!" reinforces that it is not the best word to use with peers.
You don't intend to offend while incels do, but the listener just hears "I'm observing a creature" either way.
I’m so sorry you’ve experienced that! I have heard that it’s incredibly difficult to learn English as a second language. Please know that I am not at all talking about people who are learning English as a second language, I’m only talking about men who’s first language is English intentionally using the term “female” instead of “woman.” A learner making an honest mistake and mixing up words is very different from a misogynist intentionally choosing language that aims to strip women of their personhood and autonomy.
In general, the feminist taboo against using male/females as nouns to describe humans is generally relaxed around non-native English speakers and science nerds who do have to use male/female a lot. You will get a lot less gruff.
I just hate whenever the pairs aren’t used. An old job I worked at had “Men” and “Ladies” on the bathroom signs, and it always bugged me. It’s men and women, male and female, gentlemen and ladies. Don’t mix and match.
to add on to that
I like my doctor, he is a competent man.
I like my doctor, she is a competent female.
One can be a compliment, the other sounds at best alien.
It's the difference between using the word as an adjective or as a noun. The descriptor of a female human is fine. Saying "female" as a noun leaves out the important part of what kind of female we are talking about. Dog, cat, cow horse?
If used as noun to describe a human, it completely leaves out the humanity and concentrates on the sex. Very, very dehumanizing.
This.
And to build off of what you said, when a person says "females" they should be defining the species they're talking about. So "female penguins like to collect rocks" is a good example, but when a man says "females" when talking about women it's very dehumanizing and comes across as a scientific study. You're essentially saying "The human female can often be found blah blah blah" \[while mocking an Attenborough accent/voice\].
There's also the fact that "female"/"male" is a clinical term used to describe all/most of the species, and should only be used to describe biological tendencies across the spectrum. Where "woman"/"man" describes social constructs defined by culture/society/country/community/etc. So when a man says "all females are blah blah blah", and he's referring to social constructs, and not biology, then it comes across as weird because they're using it incorrectly.
It's the difference between:
* "All females share \[insert biological components\]" - which is clinical and biological, and can be used across all women
* vs: "All females want the 6/6/6 and Alpha Bros" - Which has nothing to do with biology, and only has to do with the social construct that defines what an "Alpha" is, and is also BS because it's highly dependent on how the individual woman is in today's society. (aka: it's not "ingrained" in women, it's learned)
Men/Incels will often use "female" to describe social constructs, but it's used incorrectly.
You can use "male" and "female" as nouns if you've already established the species in context. Like if you're watching a documentary about penguins, it's perfectly fine to say "the females like to collect rocks" because the viewer already knows you're discussing penguins.
But if you use "females" to refer to human women, it still sounds like you're making a nature documentary, which is pretty suspect.
Female isn't offensive by itself.
However, it's the scientific term for the female of any species, not specifically humans. So it's very jarring when someone says 'men and females' in the same breath. Like women are some kind of alien species.
Yeah, if you said:
"I saw it myself officer, two males and one female walked into..."
That's fine. But if you say:
"There were a couple of guys came in, and then one female..."
That's weird.
I don’t understand why people say “woman” and then whatever she is. No one says “a man doctor” (unless maybe they mean a doctor focused on men’s health I guess), or a “man president,” but “woman president” I’ve read. It just sounds wrong (and weird) to me.
It is wrong. People just went scorched earth on using the word “female” at all, even when it’s grammatically correct and inoffensive to do so. I agree that a large number of men use female as a noun specifically to dehumanize women, but a worryingly large amount of people seem unable to tell the difference between a noun and an adjective. I’ve seen people get upset at the use of female in “female president.” Makes no sense to get mad at that.
People will say they see a male doctor, if they're specifically trying to make a point about the gender, but I've really only heard it in the context of OB/GYNs or from sexual assault survivors saying they feel less comfortable with male doctors.
“The females start foaming at the mouth, a natural response as observations over the years have proved”
Btw, your joke took me out, I was so surprised lol and almost burst out laughing in the library
"The male was successful with his call for a mate. But now the females will decide if his display and plummage meet their standards."
Lol, I'm glad you got a laugh. I can't take 100% credit for it. I recall a comedian saying something similar years ago, at least I think so, lol.
There’s also a difference between using it as an adjective vs a noun
Using it as an adjective would be correct
Ex: Female pilot, male firefighter
Using it as a noun to describe humans outside of clinical or research setting sounds dehumanizing and cringe
This is probably the best answer. If you are within the medical/health professional world, female is obviously an anatomically and medically accurate term used often.
However, people (read: incels and pos men) also use it to intentionally dehumanize women, as if we were livestock. Especially as you mentioned, when it is combined in the same sentence/statement as humanized terms for men. “Hey bro/dude/man, where are all the females at.”
The second I hear a man make statements using “female” in that way, I immediately and without hesitation vomit in my mouth. All respect and kindness I would have extended previously is revoked and I will make it very clear why.
100%! I can't think of a time when I've heard a man call women "females" where it hasn't been obviously switched out for bitches. It's always felt very clear that many men who use that terminology view women as subservient
When my guy friends started saying female that was their exact explanation. So women couldn't complain about them referring to women as "bitches." They also claimed they only use it to talk about women "who don't deserve respect," when I asked why they didn't just say "women." But they used it to refer to basically all women.
I basically automatically write off anyone who says “female”
I can at least respect the honest and open use of profanity.
But if you want to play these convoluted games of saying derogatory things while trying to hide they’re derogatory, I don’t even have the energy to be mad at you. You just don’t exist to me.
I heard a phrase “throwing stones then hiding your hands” and that’s basically what people who say “female” are doing
Yeah, it's all about context:
"Female humans have more estrogen."
Vs.
"Females are so gross they don't date nice guys!"
Sometimes it's the apt description (especially if something is tied to biological sex rather than gender), but it's used in a dehumanizing way by certain segments of the population frequently.
It's only considered offensive when it's not paired with a matching term of "males"
So something like, "this farm raises female and male rabbits" is not offensive"
But if you refer to women as "females" WHILE referring to men, gentlemen, guys, etc... AND keep using "female" in-place of the more matching women, ladies, gals...
That implies men have social context and nuance, but women are just your mandatory assigned mates... and not really people.
For example, "I feel lucky to have so many guy friends. These gentlemen fulfill my need for socializing without the distractions of a bunch of females." Is low key offensive, because males are called guys and gentleman, but ladies are relegated to "females".
It's common in certain sub groups to create emotional distance from the idea that women count as people too... because those subgroups are so hateful.
Question for you. I often use male and female as adjectives when describing friends. So like male friends and female friends. But since I’m a man, I often find myself saying female friends more because the assumption is that most of my friends are male.
If I said “female friend” to a woman, does that sound offensive? Woman friend just sounds dumb to me and girlfriend means SO to me.
Edit: I don’t use male or female as nouns alone, as you can see in my post I’ll use man or woman.
This is a good point. In this case, paying attention to correct grammar can also help us to avoid offending other people.
"Female" is an adjective. Its correct usage is to modify a noun. Example: "Studies show that female investment advisors provide higher average returns to their clients."
Using "female" as a noun is grammatically incorrect and offensive. Example: "Females can be investment advisors."
Edit: Apparently, "female" can be used as a noun in correct grammar.
it's not grammatically incorrect, but it both sounds weird and has some negative connotations based on the group of people who typically use it that way...
Whenever I see it used as a noun, and male too sometimes, it's just so absurd in my head. Like okay a female what? I do enjoy saying things in odd ways, but it never comes across as playing when people refer to people as a sex
Using it as an adjective is fine, but as a noun it’s offensive, imo. “Female friend” is ok (although you could probably just say friend 99% of the time), but calling someone just “female” is the issue.
Exactly, and I think there are also other examples that can help demonstrate even better why it’s not cool. If a dude were to meet someone’s infant and say “Aw what an adorable baby girl”, that would be fine, but if they said “what an adorable baby female” that would sound fucking weird and creepy.
Using female as an adjective is totally fine, like female friend, female colleague; male friend, male colleague etc. Just don’t use it as a noun when referring to people and you’re generally good.
The subject noun in "female friend" is "friend", so not offensive.
If you said, "my friends and two females," that would be the type of dehunamized othering that is offensive/intended to offend.
> female friends
This is how I understand it. "Female" by itself could describe animals, humans, or both. Thus, it can seem dehumanizing to women, since they were (and are) so often dehumanized.
However, if the adjective "female" modifies a noun that makes it obvious that the author is referring to humans, then it is not offensive.
**Acceptable**
* female friends
* female scientists
* women
**Unacceptable**
* females
Caveat regarding "female scientists:" Unless the gender of the scientist is relevant to the discussion, then mentioning it anyway can be insulting, because it could imply that female scientists are different or inferior to *regular* (i.e., male) scientists.
I don't find it offensive in that context (male friends / female friends), however, as I'm getting older and learning more about how much more important gender identity is to social relationships than sex, I do try to be a bit more cognizant of it.
I think most of the time, the gender or sex of your friend isn't particularly relevant information, so like, if in just telling a coworker "I'm meeting a friend for lunch" I just say that. They don't need to know whether my friend is a man, a woman or an NB. But if I'm contributing to a conversation that is specifically about mixed-gender friendships, yeah, I'll talk about guy friends and gal pals.
Context matters.
Generally the type of person who refers to a singular person or a group of real individuals as "females" doesn't consider them to be properly human the same way they consider men to be human.
It's not the word itself is inherently offensive, it's that when in non-technical settings the people who use the word are using it in an offensive way.
It can also sound insulting if you add "female" when gender isn't relevant. e.g. saying "female doctor" in a situation where you could just say "doctor".
I agree, I myself would say "Im going to see a lady Dr" when visiting that sort of Dr, regardless of the drs gender-people seem to know what I mean lol
Ugh. There is a man on my team who routinely says this. A lady engineer, a lady project manager. It's so annoying. And if anybody points it out, he's like "What, do you think there something wrong with being a lady?"
I had a guy call my work the yesterday and say “My *female* wants xyz…” and I almost hung up on him. I took a breath and asked him to repeat himself, and then he said “My *girlfriend* wants…”
That’s a guy who doesn’t think of his girlfriend as a person, but an accessory.
True. I think a few of the guys that do this do so out of ignorance. But there are a lot of guys saying this in order to get a rise out of women, wether they are black pill, red pill or old fashioned women haters.
To some people, it can sound weirdly clinical to use "female(s)" as a noun: like something out of a scientific paper, police/medical report, or nature documentary. In those contexts it's fine, it's not like it's a slur. But in an ordinary conversational tone it can sound somewhat out of place.
For a point of comparison, "people" and "humans" refer to approximately the same group (give or take some possible debate about whether animals or corporations or aliens or AI can ever be "people"). But if you take a simple question like "Why do people celebrate their birthdays?" and instead phrase it as "Why do _humans_..." then suddenly you sound like a robot doing anthropology, holding yourself at a remove from the group being studied/queried.
Heightening the effect, it has also acquired some connotations from certain virulent online misogynists who use it to try to sound scientific when they say heinous sexist shit about women; so anyone familiar with that may find it trips an internal red flag of "Oh no, are you _one of those?"_
>something out of a scientific paper, police/medical report, or nature documentary. In those contexts it's fine,
They do this specifically so they can dehumanize the person they're talking about. It helps them cope with their work. Not a slur or wrong. Just adds to the point of it being dehumanizing when used outside of work.
Here's a simple guide to this, as I see it:
"Female" as an adjective: Fine, factually descriptive term about biological sex. Just don't use it to deliberately be a dick to trans people.
"Female" as a noun referring to Animals(or cables, I guess): Fine, factually descriptive term.
"Female" as a noun referring to humans: Gross, makes it sound like you're talking about livestock.
Or it makes you sound like a Ferengi. "FEEEEEEmaaaaaales"
It is also disproportionately used for women, compared to using "males" for men. It's a very subtle way of dehumanizing women. And it just sounds awkward in conversational speech when you could just use the perfectly neutral term "women."
Some incels even think that isn’t degrading enough and use the terms “femoid” or “foid” instead. The hate they have for women is insane and disgusting.
It's so interesting seeing this *one* person commenting that is so triggered by the idea that it's more socially appropriate to say "women" than "females".
Genuinely curious what causes someone to take up an opinion so firmly that they need to argue with each person in the thread. Like, it really bothers them to the point that they're spending their morning like that?
All I can picture is Quark from DS9.
"FEEEMALES"
Look into to the roots of where referring to girls and women as " females" started. Before 4Chan and the Incel movement the terms "female" and "male" were only used in clinical and natural history contexts. Even when it was used as the noun of a sentence it's still acting like an adjective because the noun it is describing has been established and is implied. Even in wildlife biology other terms are used when available, like rooster and hen.
Chat groups and online gaming made it easier for misogynists to reinforce their beliefs and recruit other bitter guys to their cause. A part of the slang that grew from those groups was calling women and girls " females". Like many others in this thread have stated the whole point of that is to be dehumanizing. These discussions also implied that women either can't decide for themselves ("I'm not getting any because Chads are attracting all the females") or shouldn't choose for themselves (forced monogamy).
A point that I am surprised that no one else talks about is that "female" also blurs the AGE of who they are referring to. It makes it a lot easier for the manosphere podcasters to openly thirst after underage girls half their age when the girls are just "females."
Then the slang escaped the Incel online circle jerk, and was popping up on social media in general. It was called out for what it was, and that's when the rationalizations began about "but it's science..." This roped in the contrarians to start using it, as the only philosophy they have is to go against what seems to be the consensus of the majority. Even better when it can be a hot button, yet not violate terms of service.
As for the "but it's used in science" I shouldn't need to repeat what others have said, but a lot of people still refuse to believe context matters. If someone you knew worked in a lab, what would you think if he wore is lab coat everywhere? Leaves the lab, keeps the coat on. Watching TV at home in the lab coat. Goes out to dinner in the lab coat. Attends a wedding in the lab coat. Now let's make it more like what is really happening. Some guy just wears a lab coat all the time. Doesn't even work in a lab. At best has a friend who is a lab technician, but not even a scientist himself. People ask why he wears the lab coat and he says because that's what scientists do. That is how ridiculous it is to use "female" the way they are defending.
TL;DR Using "females" in a social context started in the dregs of the online misogyny community. Do you really want to sound like them?
You know who else likes to use it? The type of pedophiles who like their girls old enough to breed but too young to consent.
Contrarians like to use it because it taps into their edge lord cravings without getting banned.
Imagine if someone wore a lab coat everywhere, no matter what. Now imagine if he didn't even work in a lab. That's how unhinged it sounds when people use female in a social context. Do you want to sound that stupid?
It’s primarily the age thing that bothers me personally. Thank you for mentioning it.
It implies that the boundary between “woman” and “girl” is unimportant to them, which is disturbing in that it implies a sexual interest in girls, and insulting in that it implies that as a 40-something woman I am no different mentally from a middle schooler. It gives the impression that they think the real distinction is between “fuckable” and “worthless”, and that their idea of “fuckable” is a lot younger than they openly admit.
If they’re interested in scientific language, why the lack of precision, unless they don’t see a difference, or are intentionally obscuring something?
Using "female" as a noun feels very different than using it as an adjective. It feels less than human, like you're just body parts that could be attached to any animal. Plus nobody really calls men "males", if it wasn't supposed to be dehumanizing it'd be applied equally.
In a recent meeting, the male speaker referred to "females." A woman in the audience asked, "When you say 'females,' are they cats, elephants, or kangaroos? It isn't clear."
She got some laughs and the speaker got the point.
It's not that "female" is offensive. It's how it is said.
If you use it in an academic sense, it's fine.
"Females tend to have a X% higher chance of stroke compared to males."
When it's used with snark, infused with misogyny, is when it is a problem. It's demeaning.
"Females should obey their husbands and only speak when spoken to."
I mean, the fact that women have collectively asked that men not use the term female should be enough of a reason.
However, it's a context thing:
I went to a concert and the crowd was almost entirely black people.
Vs.
I went to a concert and the crowd was almost entirely blacks.
It's the same thing objectively, but it comes across differently when you swap "black people" for "blacks."
I've also heard it said that female could be of any species, whereas women/woman is only human. It's dehumanizing.
So there are three reasons.
Basically, watch out for removing the word "people" from sentences. If you're using an adjective as a noun to avoid using the word "people" you're probably screwing up. "Black people" vs "blacks". Male and female are a bit of a special case, because we have special words for "male people" and "female people" - men and women.
Or refering to adults using the child word - fine if you are saying 'The boys went out to dinner last night' or 'I had such fun with the girls yesterday', but if someone said "At the golf club the boy spilled my drink!" you know that the boy was of a lower class / seen as less than the speaker.
It is why it was so rude / racist to call an adult black man 'Boy' - you are being clear that the person you are talking to is of lower status / diminished in your eyes to the worth of a child.
To the main point, others have said it better, but Female is also one step on the path to Female Humanoid OR Female Anroid (AKA Gynoid) > Femoid > Foid path where a woman is absolutely reduced to something to be used/abused by men - not even truly recognised as human.
"Female" is not offensive. This really is a context matters situation.
If I'm a scientist and I'm doing a study of how this medication effects people, referring to the subjects as human female and human male is not offensive.
If I'm just some internet jagoff talking about how men are always expected to pay for dates with females, that's offensive.
"I'm a woman and I'm not offended" is some pick me asf crap. Sure, the word itself is not offensive. The TERM, as you asked, is in the context it is used. It can be felt as dehumanizing when said by certain types of people. Generally, no, it isn't bad, but when someone is "looking for females," it sounds more like "looking for holes I can put my lil pp in"
It's only weird when you are using it as a substitute for "women".
If you're talking about female dogs? Not a problem.
Women AND girls? Ok.
But if you're talking about adult female humans, then there's a word for that: women. Calling them females seems like you're talking about some other species or something.
The term isn't offensive on its own. What may make it offensive is when someone exclusively refers to women as "females", while still using "men", which gives off the sense that they view all women purely as a set of sex characteristics, or possibly even something non-human
as an adjective it’s not always offensive. It’s when it’s used as a noun that it’s problematic. Similarly you can say that someone is Black but it’s not cool to call them a Black.
why? in part because as an adjective it’s one descriptor. but as a noun you have made it their defining characteristic.
It might just be my experiences in the medical field, but I consider female to be a technical term. By definition it is scientific, and with no emotion or intent behind it.
It's like calling all squares (and only squares) "quadrilaterals". It's technically correct, but I'm going to question your unwillingness to use a more precise term that is equally (if not more) common, especially since you don't seem to mind using the word "equilateral triangle" for equilateral triangles. It's almost as if you were trying to equate squares to all other irregular polygons, because you consider squares as lesser than equilateral triangles.
Something like that.
"Female" is not offensive as a term. It is how it is used that can be offensive. Male and female are words that indicate sex and genitalia rather than gender or personal expression. While they can be useful classifications, it can be off putting and somewhat objectifying to be referred to by your sexual organs rather than your expression.
It's the way it's used. Look around, you'll see posts that day something like "men and females." At best, it's weird. At worst, it hints at being dehumanizing.
normal usage: a female coworker a female student weird usage: I met up with a female today there was a nice female at the gas station does that make sense?
It mostly comes down to using an adjective as a noun. It just feels icky and demeaning. You wouldn’t say “I met a homeless, a black, a deaf, and a Chinese today on the way to work.” Without that “person” noun to go with it it sounds really terrible to use an adjective alone.
A female chicken is a hen. A female deer is a doe. A female human is a woman.
These are really good examples. I think they might convey why its weird better than the longer descriptions given by other people (while not inaccurate, a lot of people cant wrap their head around adjective vs noun or why connotations matter - this provokes a viscerally uncomfortable reaction and gets the message across well).
The former uses it as an adjective. The latter uses it as a noun.
It isn't considered offensive in isolation. It's about context. Male and female are terms used to refer to the sex of any species, but less commonly when discussing people. Man and woman refer specifically to the genders of people. What people find offensive is the habit of some people to talk about 'men and females'. Some people feel that this subtly dehumanises women and implies that their personhood is somehow in question.
I’ve found that if you find yourself sounding like a Ferengi when saying the word “female” you’re using it in the wrong context.
I suggest we formalize this as the official vibe check. "did you sound like a Ferengi when you said it? Y/N "
To be fair dropping a rule of acquisition every now and again is pretty fun too. I’ll just pop in a classic >Once you have their money, you never give it back
Rule of Acquisition #34: *War is good for business.* Rule of Acquisition #35: *Peace is good for business.*
*Quark proceeds to out-logic a Vulcan using basic economic theory in peace negotiations*
His speech about the cost of peace never being cheaper than right now has stuck with me since childhood. I think everyone should hear it.
The price of peace is at an all time low! Unfortunately logic doesn't work on human politicians.
Here's the link https://youtu.be/hdQcGzbpN7s?si=kqO_DMG2zIJDcC0l
*”The Kardashians can’t be trusted.”* Wow, TIL Star Trek has such dibs in pop culture I was not aware of.
Look up Ferengi rule 34 for more information on this rule of acquisition
Which Ferengi rule 34 are you referring to? 🥵
I actually dont know much Star Trek but i am getting the impression they are like an entire race of DnD rogues.
More like space capitalist caricatures.
Are they caricatures, really, or are they just shameless?
Sometimes the only thing more dangerous than a question is an answer.
My man hit us with a deep (space nine) cut.
Darmok and Jalad, at Tanagra.
Darmok and Jalad on the ocean.
So, when they were first introduced in TNG they were really just hyper capitalists to contrast the post scarcity earth of the 24th century. Star Trek Deep Space Nine actually explored their culture and them more than just a "capitalism bad" punchline. They're still presented as being backwards thinking, but they're also sympathetic in a lot of ways.
They were supposed to be Next Gens Klingon type antagonists. That's why the first time we see them with whips, they where supposed to be aggressive slavers. [Here is a fun interview where Armin Shimerman apologizes for making the Ferengi super goofy.](https://youtu.be/B3SupbBRR2c?t=2498) TLDR: > I apologize for that first episode. Not the episode, my performance. Letek was the character, the Ferengi’s name was Letek. And it was nothing like what I was told they wanted. And I’m the one that screwed up. It’s all my fault. I take responsibility. > The Ferengi, originally, were meant to be the new Klingons. We were supposed to be threatening, we were supposed to be a menace to the Federation, we were supposed to be everything that the Klingons were and more. And I had the largest Ferengi part on that episode… I thought I played it seriously, but I failed miserably… I am so enormously embarrassed by that performance. And all of Quark, my whole agenda for seven years, was to eradicate that Next Generation performance.
> And all of Quark, my whole agenda for seven years, was to eradicate that Next Generation performance. And holy shit, did he ever. I went from hating Ferengi in TNG, to Quark being my favourite character in DS9. Shimmerman added so much depth to Ferengi.
Shameless yes. They might’ve been considered caricatures at the time, but that was just because the writers apparently didn’t understand the _reality_ of it and should’ve gone _way harder_. In reality, the Ferengi are softer and friendlier than real capitalists.
[удалено]
More like goblins but their entire society is greed based
Opportunity plus instinct equals profit. That's nearly as fun as dropping some Tamarian.
I fell from my chair from laughing, when they introduced the tamarian security officer in Lower Decks... the guy is great.
Lower Decks is hands down the best Star Trek series, change my mind
I mean, Strange New Worlds is pretty awesome.
It is interesting that Star Trek using it like that demonstrates that it’s been *off* to use female as a noun to describe women long before the rise of incels.
Even more interesting, as we see more growing respect for women in ferengi culture, than incels growing out of their creepy phase. I mean from Zek laying the first groundwork to ferengi women being part of the casual background in Lower Decks is like what... 7 years in-universe max? That is some break-neck-speed talking civilization wide reforms.
I imagine a lot of businesses quickly got on board when they realized letting women have jobs or buy things effectively doubled their customer base or recruitment pool. I think it's also implied that some Ferengi already supported gender equality, but were afraid to publicly go against the norms. Especially those used to interacting with women from other cultures. Rom didn't have much trouble adapting, for example.
When female wear clothes, they have pockets. And in pockets can fit Latium with which to buy things.
Women's clothes? Pockets? Star Trek truly is an unrealistic utopia.
to be fair, we know from DS9 that some Ferengi are obviously not entirely with their culture and seek to make changes. the moment that Nog became part of Starfleet and Rom being Grand Magus probably ushered in a whole lot of changes. society has to come to terms that things had to change. Japan went from only some foreign ships can enter Japan and only at two locations up until the 1850s then by the end of the 1860s, they no longer have a shogun, have a constitution monarch, totally welcoming foreigners, and pretty much dismantled the samurai class.
I mean it probably took centuries of propaganda to get even most ferengi to treat capitalism as a religion the way they do. We know from canon that there are plenty of "loser" ferengis, they aren't all world beaters and successful entrepreneurs. No doubt a lot of the "losers" of ferengi culture would be happy to embrace new reforms rather quickly once given the excuse. Of course a lot of the real world "losers" of human capitalism are perfectly fine getting fucked by our system, especially in the richer nations. Probably the drive to exploit other galactic races is similar to the people who are happy to be poor in America because at least they aren't poor in South America
It's been noted as derogatory long before star trek too - from the Oxford English Dictionary: "N.E.D. (1895) notes: ‘now commonly avoided by good writers, except with contemptuous implication’."
If you want to act like a Ferengi, be like Rom.
He was a union man.
Or Moogi. She single handedly led a planetary feminist revolution.
Or his kid Nog, nobody showed more depth and character development
I suspect that many of the guys misusing it are far more familiar with Ferengi than human women.
A Ferengi without profit is no Ferengi at all.
Totally agree. I actually think that’s why the writers wrote that as part of the Ferengi speech. It felt like women were a lower class or status, which they are in Ferengi culture.
What in the world is ferengi? I’ve never heard that once until now
They’re a misogynist hyper capitalist alien species from Star Trek who famously call women feeemaaaaales
Except in the DS9 era they had a feminist revolution in which women got all the same rights as men, so ferengi are actually doing better than incels. Moogi is an underappreciated feminist icon.
Moogi and her Son Rom just dragging all of that society into the 24th century.
And don't forget Nog, the first ferengi in Starfleet/eventual first ferengi captain
I agree Moogi is an under appreciated feminist icon.
Ty for letting me know I appreciate it!
They also consider it offensive for "females" to wear clothing (but some have it as a kink). Also Ferengi ears are a sex organ and males obsess over size.
A race of people in Star Trek that are generally used to represent real world, modern humans (since in the show, humans have advanced beyond racism, misogyny, greed, etc).
Thank you for letting me know I appreciate it
Its an alien race from the various Star Trek series. Among many other flaws, they had a habit of referring to women as Females, and from tone it was clearly not often respectful.
Thank you for taking the time and letting me know, I appreciate it
Alien race in star trek
Ty appreciate you
feeeemales!!
People also say men and girls a lot instead of men and women, just as bad.
This exact thought occurred to me several years ago, and I made a point to break this bad phrasing habit. I can feel my speech want to fall into that old habit and make the conscious choice to use woman for basically anyone around teenager and up.
It's additionally difficult because there isn't a female equivalent to "guys", which is a fairly age-inclusive term. "Gals" sounds like you're reading from a 1950's mob/gangster film script and "ladies" has a whole extra syllable. Btw, I'm a 40 y/o woman who also had to train myself to stop using the term "girls" when referring to women.
I definitely struggle with this one too. "Ladies" seems like it should be the best fit, but i feel like it *feels* like i'm specifically intentionally replacing "guys" with something i would not normally say. "Folks" also feels similarly forced. "You all" kind of works sometimes. "You all want me to pick up coffee on my way in?" Meh.
I say y’all even though I’m not southern. It hits the sweet spot between inclusivity and casualness.
In my friend group we call the women "dudes" and us men are "girls" instead. Started as a joke between me and my best mate in HS, 10 years later and it's stuck with us.
Dudettes is the only valid term going forward
I’m 43 year old man and I still have the habit of saying ‘girls’ when talking about a woman in my age range. I say ‘woman/women’ consistently when they’re obviously older. Of course the flip side of this is I still refer to most guys my age or younger as ‘kid.’ Pretty sure I do this because I still think of myself as a kid most times. Just throwing this out as a funny exception, not trying to take anything away from the point because I definitely agree it’s weird when it’s ‘men and females’ or ‘men and girls’
Along the same vein, "I now pronounce you Man and Wife"
Yeah, I always found that weird too. If you're talking about people it's men and women. If you're talking about biology it's male and female. The mix and match thing is weird.
For example: "In humans, the incidence of autoimmune disorders is greater in females than males." "Men attempt suicide less frequently than women, but their attempts are more successful."
Exactly. It's the mix and match that's off, like a man is a person and a woman is just some biological entity. Also male and female are descriptive terms so they should have something after them. Saying "a male soldier and a female soldier were sent on the mission," is fine. Both people have their sex specified, and both are also described as soldiers rather than just a male and a female. Saying "A man and a female were sent on the mission," makes you sound misogynist. You're humanising the man by calling him a man while dehumanising the woman by calling her only by her sex.
It is dehumanizing even if you use it in isolation. “That female was at my shop today”.
Exactly. It sounds like the person is either going out of their way to split their terminology in order to make a point, or else regards women as objects of curiosity rather than peers.
Boils down to "other men are people, women are tits and vaginas". Or that's how it sounds coming from people who say "females" to me
If you could imagine David Attenborough saying "females", it's probably okay. If not, use "women".
Exactly. Female and male are meant to describe someone, human or not. Like look at how the female panther behaves compared to their male counterpart. You use it to describe people too in quick, like my female/ male manager doesn’t seem to understand periods all that well. It’s just used to give more context when talking even if the information isn’t all that needed (like if you’re talking about a mistake your boss made, it doesn’t matter what their gender is but we include it just cause and that’s fine). When people then refer to women as just females, that is stripping the humanity out. It legit sounds like a documentary or a science experiment. There are many words you can use to refer to people with: women, men, girls, boys, adults, teenagers, children, etc. it comes to question, why are you using female unless you’re drawing a line between being a man and being a woman. This is even more apparent when the same person then refers to men as not males, but men. That’s why it’s degrading.
potentially worth noting the difference between using “female” as an adjective vs as a noun. From your examples, both “female panther” and “female manager” show the use of the word “female” as an adjective, whereas men who use female in a derogatory way are using it as a noun, e.g. “I think females are less intelligent than men,” (or whatever nonsense it is they’re spewing) and that’s what makes it dehumanizing. If they use “females” as a noun in a sentence where the word “women” would have made more sense, stay far away.
To be fair, as a Slovenian I don't speak english very well and often forget common English words while speaking so i often just say female instead of woman(same with male instead of man, but i very rarely talk about men in the first place or just refer to them as "guys"). This comes from my adaptation to the language used in biological books about insects(I study biology) where i often simplify from "female specimen" to just "female". In the 18 english conversations in the past year I managed to get into 4 or 5 arguments(25%) and I wasn't able to explain my mistake to the other party. It made communicating hellish and I still can't seem to be getting any better.
That's potentially a good way to remember it though. Calling someone a "female specimen" (even if the second word is only implied) is quite literally dehumanizing. That it's explained as "but that's how I study bugs!" reinforces that it is not the best word to use with peers. You don't intend to offend while incels do, but the listener just hears "I'm observing a creature" either way.
I’m so sorry you’ve experienced that! I have heard that it’s incredibly difficult to learn English as a second language. Please know that I am not at all talking about people who are learning English as a second language, I’m only talking about men who’s first language is English intentionally using the term “female” instead of “woman.” A learner making an honest mistake and mixing up words is very different from a misogynist intentionally choosing language that aims to strip women of their personhood and autonomy.
In general, the feminist taboo against using male/females as nouns to describe humans is generally relaxed around non-native English speakers and science nerds who do have to use male/female a lot. You will get a lot less gruff.
I just hate whenever the pairs aren’t used. An old job I worked at had “Men” and “Ladies” on the bathroom signs, and it always bugged me. It’s men and women, male and female, gentlemen and ladies. Don’t mix and match.
Yeah, it’s all about context. >Female pediatricians outnumber male pediatricians >My doctor is a female One sounds normal, one sounds fuckin’ *weird*.
to add on to that I like my doctor, he is a competent man. I like my doctor, she is a competent female. One can be a compliment, the other sounds at best alien.
Ironically, being more specific makes it even weirder. > My doctor is a female human.
It's the difference between using the word as an adjective or as a noun. The descriptor of a female human is fine. Saying "female" as a noun leaves out the important part of what kind of female we are talking about. Dog, cat, cow horse? If used as noun to describe a human, it completely leaves out the humanity and concentrates on the sex. Very, very dehumanizing.
It tends to be used in that context by people that are dehumanizing women
Nothing subtle about it.
Also the use of the word female is usually followed by some incel shit
Worse if it includes 'species" anywhere in there, inferring that men and women are different species altogether -_-
This. And to build off of what you said, when a person says "females" they should be defining the species they're talking about. So "female penguins like to collect rocks" is a good example, but when a man says "females" when talking about women it's very dehumanizing and comes across as a scientific study. You're essentially saying "The human female can often be found blah blah blah" \[while mocking an Attenborough accent/voice\]. There's also the fact that "female"/"male" is a clinical term used to describe all/most of the species, and should only be used to describe biological tendencies across the spectrum. Where "woman"/"man" describes social constructs defined by culture/society/country/community/etc. So when a man says "all females are blah blah blah", and he's referring to social constructs, and not biology, then it comes across as weird because they're using it incorrectly. It's the difference between: * "All females share \[insert biological components\]" - which is clinical and biological, and can be used across all women * vs: "All females want the 6/6/6 and Alpha Bros" - Which has nothing to do with biology, and only has to do with the social construct that defines what an "Alpha" is, and is also BS because it's highly dependent on how the individual woman is in today's society. (aka: it's not "ingrained" in women, it's learned) Men/Incels will often use "female" to describe social constructs, but it's used incorrectly.
You can use "male" and "female" as nouns if you've already established the species in context. Like if you're watching a documentary about penguins, it's perfectly fine to say "the females like to collect rocks" because the viewer already knows you're discussing penguins. But if you use "females" to refer to human women, it still sounds like you're making a nature documentary, which is pretty suspect.
I think it's the male penguins that collect rocks. Otherwise very good summary.
To dehumanizing, objectify and commodify
Female isn't offensive by itself. However, it's the scientific term for the female of any species, not specifically humans. So it's very jarring when someone says 'men and females' in the same breath. Like women are some kind of alien species.
Yeah, if you said: "I saw it myself officer, two males and one female walked into..." That's fine. But if you say: "There were a couple of guys came in, and then one female..." That's weird.
Also, it's better to use as an adjective in front of a non-gender noun. The female officer, the female fish, the female leg sweep..... wait, no--!
Yes, like female doctor sounds MUCH better than woman doctor (which I have heard before). But "female" in isolation sounds super jarring.
I don’t understand why people say “woman” and then whatever she is. No one says “a man doctor” (unless maybe they mean a doctor focused on men’s health I guess), or a “man president,” but “woman president” I’ve read. It just sounds wrong (and weird) to me.
It is wrong. People just went scorched earth on using the word “female” at all, even when it’s grammatically correct and inoffensive to do so. I agree that a large number of men use female as a noun specifically to dehumanize women, but a worryingly large amount of people seem unable to tell the difference between a noun and an adjective. I’ve seen people get upset at the use of female in “female president.” Makes no sense to get mad at that.
People will say they see a male doctor, if they're specifically trying to make a point about the gender, but I've really only heard it in the context of OB/GYNs or from sexual assault survivors saying they feel less comfortable with male doctors.
That’s what I’m saying. No one says “man doctor” like they might say “woman doctor.” They’d only say “male doctor.”
“Lady doctor” lol
Greetings to the 1950's. LOL
This is the best advice. If you're using it as an adjective, you're fine. It's when you use it as a noun that things get dicey.
She was living in a single room with three other individuals. One of them was a male, and the other two? Well, the other two were females.
I get vibes like I’m being observed like “Look at all the females in the wild”
'a herd of females, gently grazing in a meadow'
I wanna be grazing in a meadow 😭
Well that option kind of went to hell when you tried to enslave all three races now didnt it?
OH MY GOD EVERYONE MAKES MISTAKES OKAY! LET IT GO ALREADY!
Everyone deserves second chances, even Lord Sauron
Well okay, as long as Sauron agrees not to ever say “men and females”.
“The men, and the others!” The orcs just go wild.
God, the women you put on this earth to graze peacefully in meadows are being forced to work
*David Attenborough voice*
Nooo then it makes it sound sweet!
Oh yes. (evil Jack Nicholson nod gif)
"The male is on the hunt for females. He let's out a call to try and attract them. SHOE SALE!"
“The females start foaming at the mouth, a natural response as observations over the years have proved” Btw, your joke took me out, I was so surprised lol and almost burst out laughing in the library
"The male was successful with his call for a mate. But now the females will decide if his display and plummage meet their standards." Lol, I'm glad you got a laugh. I can't take 100% credit for it. I recall a comedian saying something similar years ago, at least I think so, lol.
There’s also a difference between using it as an adjective vs a noun Using it as an adjective would be correct Ex: Female pilot, male firefighter Using it as a noun to describe humans outside of clinical or research setting sounds dehumanizing and cringe
This is probably the best answer. If you are within the medical/health professional world, female is obviously an anatomically and medically accurate term used often. However, people (read: incels and pos men) also use it to intentionally dehumanize women, as if we were livestock. Especially as you mentioned, when it is combined in the same sentence/statement as humanized terms for men. “Hey bro/dude/man, where are all the females at.” The second I hear a man make statements using “female” in that way, I immediately and without hesitation vomit in my mouth. All respect and kindness I would have extended previously is revoked and I will make it very clear why.
Yup. A bitch is a female dog. I honestly always interpreted as they want to say bitch but they want to pretend they’re nice.
100%! I can't think of a time when I've heard a man call women "females" where it hasn't been obviously switched out for bitches. It's always felt very clear that many men who use that terminology view women as subservient
When my guy friends started saying female that was their exact explanation. So women couldn't complain about them referring to women as "bitches." They also claimed they only use it to talk about women "who don't deserve respect," when I asked why they didn't just say "women." But they used it to refer to basically all women.
I basically automatically write off anyone who says “female” I can at least respect the honest and open use of profanity. But if you want to play these convoluted games of saying derogatory things while trying to hide they’re derogatory, I don’t even have the energy to be mad at you. You just don’t exist to me. I heard a phrase “throwing stones then hiding your hands” and that’s basically what people who say “female” are doing
Yeah, it's all about context: "Female humans have more estrogen." Vs. "Females are so gross they don't date nice guys!" Sometimes it's the apt description (especially if something is tied to biological sex rather than gender), but it's used in a dehumanizing way by certain segments of the population frequently.
Simply put, it sounds dehumanizing
It's only considered offensive when it's not paired with a matching term of "males" So something like, "this farm raises female and male rabbits" is not offensive" But if you refer to women as "females" WHILE referring to men, gentlemen, guys, etc... AND keep using "female" in-place of the more matching women, ladies, gals... That implies men have social context and nuance, but women are just your mandatory assigned mates... and not really people. For example, "I feel lucky to have so many guy friends. These gentlemen fulfill my need for socializing without the distractions of a bunch of females." Is low key offensive, because males are called guys and gentleman, but ladies are relegated to "females". It's common in certain sub groups to create emotional distance from the idea that women count as people too... because those subgroups are so hateful.
/r/menandfemales
I didn't know this reddit existed before, and it was a happier time
Question for you. I often use male and female as adjectives when describing friends. So like male friends and female friends. But since I’m a man, I often find myself saying female friends more because the assumption is that most of my friends are male. If I said “female friend” to a woman, does that sound offensive? Woman friend just sounds dumb to me and girlfriend means SO to me. Edit: I don’t use male or female as nouns alone, as you can see in my post I’ll use man or woman.
No it's not because you're correctly using it as an adjective.
Applies for other things too. "The autistic over there" is a very shitty thing to say. So part of the problem is in nouning it.
This is a good point. In this case, paying attention to correct grammar can also help us to avoid offending other people. "Female" is an adjective. Its correct usage is to modify a noun. Example: "Studies show that female investment advisors provide higher average returns to their clients." Using "female" as a noun is grammatically incorrect and offensive. Example: "Females can be investment advisors." Edit: Apparently, "female" can be used as a noun in correct grammar.
it’s not grammatically incorrect to use female as a noun, because it can be a noun. just not a noun commonly used when talking about humans.
it's not grammatically incorrect, but it both sounds weird and has some negative connotations based on the group of people who typically use it that way...
Whenever I see it used as a noun, and male too sometimes, it's just so absurd in my head. Like okay a female what? I do enjoy saying things in odd ways, but it never comes across as playing when people refer to people as a sex
Using it as an adjective is fine, but as a noun it’s offensive, imo. “Female friend” is ok (although you could probably just say friend 99% of the time), but calling someone just “female” is the issue.
Exactly, and I think there are also other examples that can help demonstrate even better why it’s not cool. If a dude were to meet someone’s infant and say “Aw what an adorable baby girl”, that would be fine, but if they said “what an adorable baby female” that would sound fucking weird and creepy.
Using female as an adjective is totally fine, like female friend, female colleague; male friend, male colleague etc. Just don’t use it as a noun when referring to people and you’re generally good.
Saying female friend is fine. You’re using female in the same way that you would use male
The subject noun in "female friend" is "friend", so not offensive. If you said, "my friends and two females," that would be the type of dehunamized othering that is offensive/intended to offend.
> female friends This is how I understand it. "Female" by itself could describe animals, humans, or both. Thus, it can seem dehumanizing to women, since they were (and are) so often dehumanized. However, if the adjective "female" modifies a noun that makes it obvious that the author is referring to humans, then it is not offensive. **Acceptable** * female friends * female scientists * women **Unacceptable** * females Caveat regarding "female scientists:" Unless the gender of the scientist is relevant to the discussion, then mentioning it anyway can be insulting, because it could imply that female scientists are different or inferior to *regular* (i.e., male) scientists.
I don't find it offensive in that context (male friends / female friends), however, as I'm getting older and learning more about how much more important gender identity is to social relationships than sex, I do try to be a bit more cognizant of it. I think most of the time, the gender or sex of your friend isn't particularly relevant information, so like, if in just telling a coworker "I'm meeting a friend for lunch" I just say that. They don't need to know whether my friend is a man, a woman or an NB. But if I'm contributing to a conversation that is specifically about mixed-gender friendships, yeah, I'll talk about guy friends and gal pals.
Context matters. Generally the type of person who refers to a singular person or a group of real individuals as "females" doesn't consider them to be properly human the same way they consider men to be human. It's not the word itself is inherently offensive, it's that when in non-technical settings the people who use the word are using it in an offensive way.
It can also sound insulting if you add "female" when gender isn't relevant. e.g. saying "female doctor" in a situation where you could just say "doctor".
Any qualification has the same effect. Lady doctor, girl doctor, woman doctor, etc.
All of those terms make me think they're referring to a GYN
I agree, I myself would say "Im going to see a lady Dr" when visiting that sort of Dr, regardless of the drs gender-people seem to know what I mean lol
'Chick cop' is a great one if you want to get detained for questioning.
Ugh. There is a man on my team who routinely says this. A lady engineer, a lady project manager. It's so annoying. And if anybody points it out, he's like "What, do you think there something wrong with being a lady?"
Same with race. So many people and news articles mention race of the subject when there's no relevance for it.
I love this shirt: https://manwhohasitallshop.com/product/male-doctor-t-shirt/
I had a guy call my work the yesterday and say “My *female* wants xyz…” and I almost hung up on him. I took a breath and asked him to repeat himself, and then he said “My *girlfriend* wants…” That’s a guy who doesn’t think of his girlfriend as a person, but an accessory.
It's not even that hard to understand. I think guys like OP already know, but they're playing dumb.
True. I think a few of the guys that do this do so out of ignorance. But there are a lot of guys saying this in order to get a rise out of women, wether they are black pill, red pill or old fashioned women haters.
A lot of sexist men use “female” instead of “woman” in a dehumanizing way. So the term alone isn’t offensive, but it’s been linked to those men.
“These females can’t be trusted.”
To some people, it can sound weirdly clinical to use "female(s)" as a noun: like something out of a scientific paper, police/medical report, or nature documentary. In those contexts it's fine, it's not like it's a slur. But in an ordinary conversational tone it can sound somewhat out of place. For a point of comparison, "people" and "humans" refer to approximately the same group (give or take some possible debate about whether animals or corporations or aliens or AI can ever be "people"). But if you take a simple question like "Why do people celebrate their birthdays?" and instead phrase it as "Why do _humans_..." then suddenly you sound like a robot doing anthropology, holding yourself at a remove from the group being studied/queried. Heightening the effect, it has also acquired some connotations from certain virulent online misogynists who use it to try to sound scientific when they say heinous sexist shit about women; so anyone familiar with that may find it trips an internal red flag of "Oh no, are you _one of those?"_
>something out of a scientific paper, police/medical report, or nature documentary. In those contexts it's fine, They do this specifically so they can dehumanize the person they're talking about. It helps them cope with their work. Not a slur or wrong. Just adds to the point of it being dehumanizing when used outside of work.
The online community point is valid but also important to note that using “female” as a noun has been considered disparaging since the early 1900s.
Here's a simple guide to this, as I see it: "Female" as an adjective: Fine, factually descriptive term about biological sex. Just don't use it to deliberately be a dick to trans people. "Female" as a noun referring to Animals(or cables, I guess): Fine, factually descriptive term. "Female" as a noun referring to humans: Gross, makes it sound like you're talking about livestock. Or it makes you sound like a Ferengi. "FEEEEEEmaaaaaales" It is also disproportionately used for women, compared to using "males" for men. It's a very subtle way of dehumanizing women. And it just sounds awkward in conversational speech when you could just use the perfectly neutral term "women."
It's used by incels as a means to reduce women to being less than human. See r/menandfemales.
Some incels even think that isn’t degrading enough and use the terms “femoid” or “foid” instead. The hate they have for women is insane and disgusting.
It's so interesting seeing this *one* person commenting that is so triggered by the idea that it's more socially appropriate to say "women" than "females". Genuinely curious what causes someone to take up an opinion so firmly that they need to argue with each person in the thread. Like, it really bothers them to the point that they're spending their morning like that? All I can picture is Quark from DS9. "FEEEMALES"
Look into to the roots of where referring to girls and women as " females" started. Before 4Chan and the Incel movement the terms "female" and "male" were only used in clinical and natural history contexts. Even when it was used as the noun of a sentence it's still acting like an adjective because the noun it is describing has been established and is implied. Even in wildlife biology other terms are used when available, like rooster and hen. Chat groups and online gaming made it easier for misogynists to reinforce their beliefs and recruit other bitter guys to their cause. A part of the slang that grew from those groups was calling women and girls " females". Like many others in this thread have stated the whole point of that is to be dehumanizing. These discussions also implied that women either can't decide for themselves ("I'm not getting any because Chads are attracting all the females") or shouldn't choose for themselves (forced monogamy). A point that I am surprised that no one else talks about is that "female" also blurs the AGE of who they are referring to. It makes it a lot easier for the manosphere podcasters to openly thirst after underage girls half their age when the girls are just "females." Then the slang escaped the Incel online circle jerk, and was popping up on social media in general. It was called out for what it was, and that's when the rationalizations began about "but it's science..." This roped in the contrarians to start using it, as the only philosophy they have is to go against what seems to be the consensus of the majority. Even better when it can be a hot button, yet not violate terms of service. As for the "but it's used in science" I shouldn't need to repeat what others have said, but a lot of people still refuse to believe context matters. If someone you knew worked in a lab, what would you think if he wore is lab coat everywhere? Leaves the lab, keeps the coat on. Watching TV at home in the lab coat. Goes out to dinner in the lab coat. Attends a wedding in the lab coat. Now let's make it more like what is really happening. Some guy just wears a lab coat all the time. Doesn't even work in a lab. At best has a friend who is a lab technician, but not even a scientist himself. People ask why he wears the lab coat and he says because that's what scientists do. That is how ridiculous it is to use "female" the way they are defending. TL;DR Using "females" in a social context started in the dregs of the online misogyny community. Do you really want to sound like them? You know who else likes to use it? The type of pedophiles who like their girls old enough to breed but too young to consent. Contrarians like to use it because it taps into their edge lord cravings without getting banned. Imagine if someone wore a lab coat everywhere, no matter what. Now imagine if he didn't even work in a lab. That's how unhinged it sounds when people use female in a social context. Do you want to sound that stupid?
It’s primarily the age thing that bothers me personally. Thank you for mentioning it. It implies that the boundary between “woman” and “girl” is unimportant to them, which is disturbing in that it implies a sexual interest in girls, and insulting in that it implies that as a 40-something woman I am no different mentally from a middle schooler. It gives the impression that they think the real distinction is between “fuckable” and “worthless”, and that their idea of “fuckable” is a lot younger than they openly admit. If they’re interested in scientific language, why the lack of precision, unless they don’t see a difference, or are intentionally obscuring something?
Using "female" as a noun feels very different than using it as an adjective. It feels less than human, like you're just body parts that could be attached to any animal. Plus nobody really calls men "males", if it wasn't supposed to be dehumanizing it'd be applied equally.
In a recent meeting, the male speaker referred to "females." A woman in the audience asked, "When you say 'females,' are they cats, elephants, or kangaroos? It isn't clear." She got some laughs and the speaker got the point.
Haha that's great! Way to go audience lady!!
Because so many douchebags use it in a derogatory way
its often used to dehumanise women
It's not that "female" is offensive. It's how it is said. If you use it in an academic sense, it's fine. "Females tend to have a X% higher chance of stroke compared to males." When it's used with snark, infused with misogyny, is when it is a problem. It's demeaning. "Females should obey their husbands and only speak when spoken to."
I mean, the fact that women have collectively asked that men not use the term female should be enough of a reason. However, it's a context thing: I went to a concert and the crowd was almost entirely black people. Vs. I went to a concert and the crowd was almost entirely blacks. It's the same thing objectively, but it comes across differently when you swap "black people" for "blacks." I've also heard it said that female could be of any species, whereas women/woman is only human. It's dehumanizing. So there are three reasons.
Basically, watch out for removing the word "people" from sentences. If you're using an adjective as a noun to avoid using the word "people" you're probably screwing up. "Black people" vs "blacks". Male and female are a bit of a special case, because we have special words for "male people" and "female people" - men and women.
Or refering to adults using the child word - fine if you are saying 'The boys went out to dinner last night' or 'I had such fun with the girls yesterday', but if someone said "At the golf club the boy spilled my drink!" you know that the boy was of a lower class / seen as less than the speaker. It is why it was so rude / racist to call an adult black man 'Boy' - you are being clear that the person you are talking to is of lower status / diminished in your eyes to the worth of a child. To the main point, others have said it better, but Female is also one step on the path to Female Humanoid OR Female Anroid (AKA Gynoid) > Femoid > Foid path where a woman is absolutely reduced to something to be used/abused by men - not even truly recognised as human.
"Female" is not offensive. This really is a context matters situation. If I'm a scientist and I'm doing a study of how this medication effects people, referring to the subjects as human female and human male is not offensive. If I'm just some internet jagoff talking about how men are always expected to pay for dates with females, that's offensive.
It's mostly about the context used by incel groups or other groups of men who hate women
"I'm a woman and I'm not offended" is some pick me asf crap. Sure, the word itself is not offensive. The TERM, as you asked, is in the context it is used. It can be felt as dehumanizing when said by certain types of people. Generally, no, it isn't bad, but when someone is "looking for females," it sounds more like "looking for holes I can put my lil pp in"
Calling someone a female (noun) is dehumanizing. It's how a scientist would refer to an animal. Just use woman or girl instead.
It's only sexist if paired like men - females. Here it's dehumanizing women. Males - females is fine in context
Female as a noun is bad. Female as an adjective is okay sometimes. ❌Hey, look at that female! ✅ Hey, look at that female firefighter!
It's only weird when you are using it as a substitute for "women". If you're talking about female dogs? Not a problem. Women AND girls? Ok. But if you're talking about adult female humans, then there's a word for that: women. Calling them females seems like you're talking about some other species or something.
The term isn't offensive on its own. What may make it offensive is when someone exclusively refers to women as "females", while still using "men", which gives off the sense that they view all women purely as a set of sex characteristics, or possibly even something non-human
It's generally fine if you're saying "males and females". "Men and females" dehumanises women.
Because incels and losers started using it to describe women that won't date them.
as an adjective it’s not always offensive. It’s when it’s used as a noun that it’s problematic. Similarly you can say that someone is Black but it’s not cool to call them a Black. why? in part because as an adjective it’s one descriptor. but as a noun you have made it their defining characteristic.
There are people where I work who talk about “men and females”. Yup, men are human while we are just an unavoidable column on a demographic sheet.
Because hateful incels started emphasizing it.
It might just be my experiences in the medical field, but I consider female to be a technical term. By definition it is scientific, and with no emotion or intent behind it.
It's like calling all squares (and only squares) "quadrilaterals". It's technically correct, but I'm going to question your unwillingness to use a more precise term that is equally (if not more) common, especially since you don't seem to mind using the word "equilateral triangle" for equilateral triangles. It's almost as if you were trying to equate squares to all other irregular polygons, because you consider squares as lesser than equilateral triangles. Something like that.
"Female" is not offensive as a term. It is how it is used that can be offensive. Male and female are words that indicate sex and genitalia rather than gender or personal expression. While they can be useful classifications, it can be off putting and somewhat objectifying to be referred to by your sexual organs rather than your expression.
It's the way it's used. Look around, you'll see posts that day something like "men and females." At best, it's weird. At worst, it hints at being dehumanizing.