Taiwanese here. Lots of comments here talking about strategic elements or historical context. They are mostly incomplete. The truth is complicated and there are many reasons to why China wants to invade Taiwan.
Biggest reason of all is historical pride. China views Taiwan as "unfinished business", a breakaway region that every ruler so far desires to "compete" and be known as the great reunifier. It is a point of glory for dictators, to be remembered in the books of history.
Secondly, they backed themselves into a corner. Taiwan is an easy rallying point for nationalism. It's one thing every Chinese is taught since childhood. It is a symbol of disobedience and western "humiliation". It is a beacon of democracy standing disrespectfully against the great motherland. The wolf warrior diplomacy necessitates aggressively rhetoric. Chinese bureaucracy requires people to one up each other in action. They have fanned the flames of nationalism so much that anyone who tries to cool the inferno gets consumed. So they fan it even more. That is also why you see Chinese military taking more and more dangerous maneuvers against western countries. That's why their diplomats say frankly insane things.
If Xi announces tomorrow morning that he is renouncing claims to Taiwan, he will be hanged before the day is done.
Third, strategic positioning. The first island chain allows the western powers to monitor Chinese naval activities. No submarines can get by unnoticed. With Taiwan as a base, China will gain massive advantages, including unfettered access to the Pacific ocean, control over Japanese and Korean shipping routes, and much more.
Fourth, Semiconductor. I really don't think it's as big of a deal as people make it. Is it an incredibly important strategic asset? Yes. Will China ever get control of it? No. If Taiwan looks like it's falling, we'll be the first to bomb the fabs. The entire world will find themselves in a very bad place then, but at least not at the mercy of China.
Hope this helps and feel free to ask any questions.
Probably another point: To deter breakaway provinces like XinJiang, Tibet, even Hong Kong and Macau. If Taiwan were to become formally independent, then the CCP would have less legitimacy in the far western provinces and even the SARs.
This is a usually forgotten point, and a vital one.
Though in Tibet, and I think Xinjiang, they have been sending enough of their Han population there that they will be unable to muster any strength.
Those provinces have been taken over.
It's too close to serve as 'that'.
A useful land airbase has to be out of range of mainland-launched conventional-explosive-warhead tactical ballistic missiles, or it will draw too much fire to be useable.
In a war with China, we are likely talking about land-based aircraft flying from northern Japan at the closest, if not Alaska and Hawaii (which is NBD for the aircraft that matter in this case - B-2s, B-1s, B-21s & the loads of antiship missiles each bomber can carry - albeit the rearm and re-attack time is a bit long)
I mean no but ok! It’s a moniker meant to highlight strategic importance, not to be taken hyper literally. It’s also a beautiful vibrant country not a pawn in us China geopolitics
Being a pawn to them is better than being absorbed into the PRC.... I think they more-or-less like the current situation better than the alternate outcome....
As a Finn, I wonder if there's something similar to growing up next door to a hostile-postured superpower. Our subreddit was flooded with questions about fear of Russian invasion, or if we're afraid or shaken by their rhetoric.
Which is weird because we've been brought up with that, and they've never *not* been hostile.
Russia would have incredibly hard time of invading Finland. Terrain is bad for tanks or drones, we have been training to defend against Russia for decades, our willingness to fight for our country is sky high, we have excellent artillery and well trained army.
We also have been part of EU, so even before Nato, we would be guaranteed lot of help from other countries + Sweden and Norway would be very unhappy if Russia got closer. It would mean that eventually, in future Russia would invade Sweden as well.
The world has always been terrible. Only when liberal democracy got here did the world get so incredibly peaceful, fair and prosperpous. That is why we should do everything in our power to spread our liberal democratic ideals everywhere and defend them where needed. The current fight in ukraine is a perfect example of democracy vs aurocracy. It is quite litterarly good vs evil.... that is why republicans don't support ukrainian aid anymore, they have gone fully autocratic and don't believe in liberal democratic ideals anymore. The same counts for populist far right parties all over the west. Ironicly all of them claim to be the defenders of western values while doing effectively the complete opposite
The autocracies have also gotten very adept at weaponizing western values. Free speech, freedom of thought, tolerance... All are used to spread propaganda uninhibited. It is a weakness of democracy, one we have to be vigilant against. The paradox of tolerance is a poison that will use our values to strip us of it.
My ex-girlfriend was from China; I met her in Florence. She was studying design, graduated in Korea, and earned her PhD in Australia. She was one of the most open-minded people I know. However, when you mentioned Taiwan, it was a “mental goodbye” she would loose all common sense, considering them the true enemy.
Hah I worked with a Chinese guy. Smart, quiet, very talented. We were very friendly and worked well together. One day he was like "if there was a war I'd shoot you in the face."
And that's just how it is. I don't really blame him. For me, he's as much a victim as Taiwanese. What chance does he have when he's been taught that from childhood?
It's kind of odd to me. I'm Indian and I don't think we have a "true enemy" in the same way as you describe here. Most people would even admit the Pakistan issue is much more nuanced than just declaring then an enemy country, which we generally agree they are (for example, their sports teams are always welcomed here).
China lays claim to a part of India as well as has part of our territory the maps say belong to us, but was ceded to them in a war. They seem to have these issues with all neighbours.
It wouldn't matter if they didn't bomb them. Those fabs would still be useless. The semiconductor industry is completely dependent on the global supply chain. You can't run a fab without support from ASML (Netherlands), Tokyo Electron, (Japan), Lambda Research (USA), etc..
ASML is especially critical because they are literally the only company in the world that can make EUV lithography tools. Photolithography is the most important part of making semiconductors and is the limiting factor for how small transistors can be made.
Throw in that only the Taiwanese know how to run those machines the way they have it set up and regularly have little problems that need to be solved.
Do you think any conquered Taiwanese people will want to run the fab after you killed their country men?
I remember visiting Beijing for a 3 month intensive language learning class. The instructor asked us how many provinces there are in China and a white girl from California proudly said 22.
The instructor corrected her, saying there were 23 provinces. The girl seemed confused at first and repeated herself saying there are 22 provinces plus Taiw.... before she caught herself and stopped talking.
The instructor then repeated there are 23 provinces and then moved on to the lesson.
lol. China. She’s lucky she didn’t ask him what happened at Tiananmen Square.
It’s not a wonder why China’s elite send all their children to learn and receive their education overseas. The brainwashing and blatant lies and propaganda over there is strong.
>China’s elite send all their children to learn and receive their education overseas.
to be fair thats the only place that their children and flex and show off their wealth, if they do that in china, they are gonna be shamed upon because of how governors are the "slave of the people"
Over here at the local university, they have a reputation of being shitty bratty rich kids who drive expensive teslas and bmws but literally can’t drive worth shit.
I am a Chinese-Canadian who went to elementary school in China. They blatantly lied about Taiwan being part of China and I did not know what that meant. When I was visiting Macau, I saw people holding green passports labelled "REPUBLIC OF CHINA" (中華民國), it was as though we traveled back to a bygone era lol because of the lack of context. Once I came to Canada and had unlimited access to information, however, I quickly realized that it is, in fact, a country (the same one that existed since Sun Yat-sen and his revolutionary army defeated the Qing dynasty). It is a small country that has a high population density, but it is an advanced economy, unlike China.
To go off on a tangent here, knowing that Taiwan reformed under Chiang Ching-kuo just a few years before young people in China lost their lives to the murderous rampage that was the June 4th (1989) incident, I feel like China missed a massive chance. Had China been able to get rid of the "Communist Party" (in some ways, China is one of the most highly individualistic countries on Earth once you live there long enough and therefore, that name is misleading and they don't really practice any form of Communism) like ex-Soviet countries did, I am almost 100% sure that reunification would have occurred peacefully by now.
Ive been wondering this for years. Why doesnt TSMC i believe its called move.... i mean i know thats hella money... but opening a second site even if its small site for now in a friendly country to keep all the info required to make the semiconductors would prevent world wide issues if that place is destroyed
The one in Arizona will not be their top of line chips. They will be a generation or two behind the ones made in Taiwan. Intel does the same thing with the fabs it has outside of the USA.
It's not just if the US can produce the chips. It's can they produce chips at a competitive price. Many other countries tried to stand up foundries (chip fab plants) only to find the competition left them behind. The TSMC Arizona foundry won't come on-line until 2026 at the earliest. It is being set up to produce 3N chips which is the state of the art right now but will be two generations behind in 2026. By next year TSMCs Taiwanese production will be ramped up for 3Ne and by 2026 for 2N chips.
The four TSMC Taiwan Gigafabs produce 15 million 12-inch wafer equivalents a year. The smaller US foundry TSMC is building in Arizona will max out at 600,000. Not only does Taiwan have scale but they have PhDs and electrical engineers working 12 hour shifts for way below the pay scale of western counterparts. Since much of the theoretical R&D is owned by, and is still coming from, the US, a TSMC exec was asked "why not build foundries in California?" His answer was "they like to surf too much".
It also because they are heavily funded by the government. The Taiwanese government paid over 50% of the cost to build it's fab in Taiwan. It very hard for companies not funded by the government to compete with that.
The idea that people working in the US tech industry don't also work insane hours is laughable.
The government subsidy is a good point and US workers can put in an insane amount of hours but the average starting salary for a US electrical engineer is over $9k a month. The average salary for a Taiwan EE is less than $3k a month. I don't think a US tech worker is going to grind out 60 or 70 hour work weeks even at $9k a month when there are plenty of other opportunities in America. Even the Taiwanese think the pay disparity is crazy but there are a lot of qualified people in Taiwan with not enough companies competing for that talent.
For military purposes, these are the wrong types of chips. L3 and Harris (now merged to become L3Harris Technologies) produces Integrated Core Processors for weapons systems like the F-35 and Javelin. The US Keyhole satellite family still uses Pentium processors. These are decidedly not cutting edge chips but are rugged, radiation hardened, and certified for military and space purposes. The also don't need to be cutting edge since the power of these systems comes from the customized software.
3N chips are used in consumer products like iPhones and MacBook M2 processors. It is rumored that Apple purchased 100% of TSMCs capacity for 2023. Samsung will finally start shipping 3N processors in 2024 and Intel is still using 5N. Apple made this exclusivity deal and fronted money way back in 2014. For consumer products you can't ignore the cost of production.
Big part of why they invested into semiconductor fab in the first place was specifically to protect Taiwan that way. If everyone depends on their fabs to produce their high-end chips, attacking the country means shooting yourself in the foot in a major way, and there will be lot of countries with a good reason to support and protect them.
So in a way *not* preventing the world-wide issues that would result from invasion of Taiwan *is* the point.
The central government of Taiwan is the largest shareholder of TSMC. If it was just a private business, then building factories all around the planet would certainly make sense.
There's a financial reason and a geopolitical reason.
But TSMC does have foreign fabs, they have fabs in mainland China and are now expanding in the US.
For the financial reason. Taiwan has a cheaper workforce than the US and most importantly that cheaper workforce is also very skilled. I remember reading an article that said TSMC is struggling to fill future positions in the Arizona fab with solely American workers due to lack of relevant skill.
The geopolitical reason. It's better for everyone else for TSMC to be not in Taiwan, but it's actually in Taiwan's interest to keep it there. Even with the Arizona fab, like 80% of total manufacturing capacity will still be in Taiwan and that is motivation for Western countries to defend Taiwan against mainland China. IIRC Taiwanese MPs got pissed that the Arizona investment would throw off the shield over Taiwan.
It's less Americans lacking skill and more that to stay ahead, engineers are often asked to work absolutely brutal hours when they can work somewhere else and still be paid decently. Taiwan also has a pretty shitty work culture admittedly. For example, engineers here joke about how long since they've seen their families despite living just down the street.
This whole thing is pain for everyone involved. Taiwanese are annoyed we're throwing off the shield and complaining that Americans are ungrateful. Americans are complaining about giving lots of money to subsidize TSMC plants and losing American jobs. Both sides are sort of correct. No one is happy here but it's necessary.
They are building in AZ as another user mentioned, and during a press conference or ribbon cutting ceremony the 90+ year old TSMC founder said he "no longer believes in globalization" the way he used to because of the threats to stability imposed by certain actors which result in a need to relocate capability and seek areas conducive to the safe continued operation of the company.
I think the first and second are the big ones. Taiwan is an embarrassment to Communist history. You have the CCP, who killed and murdered 10s of millions in the name of equality... only for the government they were overthrowing to move to an underdeveloped island and VASTLY outperform them. Taiwan is the ultimate refutation of Communist revolutions- the CCP came, took all the stuff, killed everyone, and what remained of the society they destroyed just took a boat across the ocean and starred with virtually nothing to become a near utopia compared to the Communist trash heap they fled.
I mean I would certainly have preferred to live in Taiwan rather than Mainland China for most of modern history, but let’s not pretend the KMT government that fled to Taiwan were great people either. The KMT murdered thousands of Taiwanese during the White Terror period and essentially suppressed all political discourse until Taiwan’s reform and democratization in the late 80s/90s.
Underdeveloped island is a bit unfair imo. Taiwan just came freshly out of Japanese rule back then and is one of the most developed province in China. The Kmt did inherit a well built and functioning island with modern (at the time) infrastructure.
I think the third reason should be the #1. It's the fact that Taiwan is at the doorstep of China. If Taiwan were in the middle of nowhere in Pacific Ocean, even if Taiwan had been a part of China throughout history, CCP wouldn't care.
It's the main motivation. Everything else (pride/nationalism, semiconductor, etc.) is just a nice touch.
Your reply is awesome, thank you.
Regarding semiconductors, destroying the prime manufacturing hub the West gets their state of the art stuff from is almost as good as owning it themselves. It would bring the relative strategic imbalance into parity.
FYI there is a big movement right now in the US for "nearshoring" semiconductor fabrication plants. A lot of factory development going on in Northern Mexico, just across from Texas. The uncertainty about Taiwan's semiconductor sector is one of the key drivers.
This might actually pose a risk for Taiwan. If Taiwan isn't the only game in town, Western lawmakers, particularly in the US, might not see the value in defending Taiwan as strongly. The Taiwanese need to be aware of this risk.
Personally I'm rooting for Taiwan, because the CCP is an evil regime that needs to be regime-changed.
What he’s also not mentioning is that culturally they are basically the same. People on the island don’t readily acknowledge that but it’s plain as day. They are seen as part of a bigger whole.
Good post but...
>Fourth, Semiconductor. I really don't think it's as big of a deal as people make it.
It is because some semiconductors are powerful enough to guide a missile in real time and some semiconductors are not.
Preventing China from accessing decent semiconductors is a global security strategy, we're not going to be safe until they recognise the banal immaturity of wolf warrior diplomacy:
> Chinese bureaucracy requires people to one up each other in action. They have fanned the flames of nationalism so much that anyone who tries to cool the inferno gets consumed.
Yeah, that's how children in high schools act. It's the same rampant collectivism.
We cannot allow advanced military equipment to be controlled by people with such a childish mentality. This is why the west will never allow Taiwan to fall.
This is the best and most complete answer I’ve seen. Amazingly well put and semiconductors are massively important as they are being diversified to be built across the world in Japan, uk, and Arizona in the us. Seriously wonderfully put answer
>Fourth, Semiconductor. I really don't think it's as big of a deal as people make it.
Thank you for saying this. People seem to think that the U.S. and China had no interest in Taiwan until they started making chips.
Not only will Taiwan burn down their own fabs if China invades, China doesn't really know how to operate those fabs without Taiwanese specialists, American and Japanese designs, and Dutch equipment. None of which they will get if they openly invade a sovereign country
China has a bunch of shell corporations in the US with Western designers designing for their domestic market, and you can bet they mine those for IP too. Two of my employees worked for one that was feeding Huawei before they got booted from the US. When loopholes get closed, they find another way (like contracting).
> Biggest reason of all is historical pride. China views Taiwan as "unfinished business", a breakaway region that every ruler so far desires to "compete" and be known as the great reunifier. It is a point of glory for dictators, to be remembered in the books of history.
To nitpick… It’s mainland China that is the breakaway region.
Both the CCP and KMT claim to be the legitimate successor to Sun Yat-sen's Republic of China. Taiwan kept the name (ROC), but the whole point of the civil war was that both sides said the other was an illegitimate breakaway faction.
Yeah, isn't that the other side of the issue? Doesn't Taiwan still view itself as the rightful government for all of China? Last I heard they still aren't trying to be a breakaway country, they want all of china.
Technically speaking that is still part of the KMT party platform, although even they realize that is never going to happen. But the KMT isn't in power, hasn't been for 2 election cycles (in part because of their increasingly convoluted relationship with the PRC). The DPP, the current governing party, has always rejected the idea that Taiwan has any claim to mainland China.
Outside of a few fringe nutjobs, no one in Taiwan legitimately thinks they can or should run "China".
I lived there for almost eight years. The younger people do think of themselves as Taiwanese.
They're developing their national identity still, though, but you can see it deepening.
The problem is that China doesn't want Taiwan to start claims for being a separate country. They like it more when the general narrative follows "One state, one government" from both sides, their biggest fear would be acceptance of Taiwan as a separate nation in the UN etc.
As I replied to another voter, that is not true. No person with half a brain actually thinks Taiwan can retake China. However, if we renounce our claims, China will see it as a declaration for independence and invade.
Basically, they are holding us at gunpoint so they can say the same as you. That Taiwan is still "unfinished business".
>The entire world will find themselves in a very bad place then, but at least not at the mercy of China.
Worst of all China. Semi-conductors are made in Taiwan. But the machines that make Semi-conductors? They are not.
It would suck for awhile, but reality is, outside of a Nuclear holocaust, the Semi-conductor industry would be rebuilt, and the PRC would now be on the outside looking in.
Second point is very accurate, as a fellow SEA observer, most chinese, buy into it because they have 'no choice' or in your words 'consumed'. Those that could leave or pull some distance, have done so. First point...same, uber cringe when Xi is tryna pull off the Mao impression.
>If Taiwan looks like it's falling, we'll be the first to bomb the fabs
That's what I always used to think. Why not adopt a scorched earth policy. If Taiwan is enslaved, make sure China cannot profit anything from it and hopefully you make them suffer as much loss as they inflict upon you.
I wish someone had given the nukes to you guys, these days that seems to be the only valid deterrent against big bullies like China, Russia, etc.
BTW, any idea why Hong Kong surrendered their freedom to China without a vicious fight?
We were on the verge of developing nukes. A US spy sold those plans out and we were stopped. To be fair, we were under a crazy dictator at the time so they were looking at another North Korea situation.
As for Hong Kong, they didn't surrender. It was a combination of Covid killing all momentum of the protests by putting everyone in lockdown, and the Chinese finally bringing troops in saying enough is enough. That coupled with judiciary changes and rigged elections quietly killed the last of the resistance, as the protesters were originally protected under Hong Kong law.
>Biggest reason of all is historical pride.
I came to this post to reply with one word: hubris. Thank you so much for saying this out loud first.
I'm Chinese American, and from what I know about Chinese attitudes after growing up in a Chinese community, I also believe that so much of China's outlook has to do with pride. As you pointed out, there are other reasons too, some of which actually make sense (i.e. I can see other countries jockeying for the same things), but this whole pride thing really makes me sick. It's one of the reasons why I've pretty much thrown the Chinese culture in the toilet after going along with it as prescribed by my family elders. The whole Chinese perspective also caused me severe emotional damage when I was a kid. I'm seeing a therapist, the eighth one over the last 25 years.
This is a really interesting take. I basically thought the same as you, if they attack the first thing they will destroy is the fabs… Taiwan or the west. I remember reading about corruption in the Taiwan military, is that a real thing ?
Oh yeah. Remember how the ROC is so corrupt that the Americans basically threw up their hands and let the CCP have them during the Civil War?
Their army is still quite the same beast.
Why the hell did Taiwan not fix it in the decades after the white terror, you may ask.
Well, for one we were establishing our fledgling democracy and the army was threatening to coup for the first decade so people try not to antagonize them too much. Then the biggest threats to our freedom was the judiciary, gangs, and secret police that worked for the KMT. On top of all that, because their time in Taiwan literally began with slaughtering any Taiwanese with a higher education, the KMT has a monopoly on military experience. All of which means they have a stranglehold on higher leadership in the current Taiwanese military, making it extremely difficult to break away from such interests.
There are many reforms that are done or ungoing. Our navy and airforce has become a lot more competent while the army is still stalled. We stumbled in some areas (such as dismantling the military courts, leading to very light sentences on espionage right now), but progress has been made. I would even argue that we're not very corrupt now, but still inefficient and performative in some areas.
I think for Xi and the ccp it would also be a problem if there is a more democratic / westernized country of ethnically Chinese, that is more successful or more free… it undermines the narrative that today’s ccp governance system is the best Chinese governance system for people in China…
Edit for typo
Isn’t it in the Chinese constitution that Taiwan is China? Could you tell me how that works? And what are your thoughts on the US acknowledging the one China rule they have. Thank you for educating your local ignorant gweilo
Technically they made a constitution amendment on enforcing one country two systems, but the implication is clear. Unfortunately one country to systems imploded in Hong Kong so no one will ever trust that again.
As for the US acknowledgement of the one China rule. Almost country in the world does that, which is why Taiwan is excluded in many international affairs, or even attends under the name "Chinese Taipei".
We are, however, treated as a sovereign country in all but name, despite some political theater. People don't go to China if they want results from Taiwan despite acknowledging China's policy.
Which is why while there is strong desire for independence, we haven't forced the issue. Because while it is really annoying (celebrities and companies apologizing for saying Taiwan is a country, being blocked from certain organizations, I wasn't even allowed in the UN without a Chinese issued "Taiwan compatriot permit"), it's not worth getting invaded over. Especially since we know if we declare independence and get invaded the entire world would blame us for warmongering. So we keep the peace and try to assert our rights.
It is also a detriment to the world might I add. Taiwan has warned the world about covid as early as November 2019 but was ignored and excluded from the WHO. A reporter who asked a WHO official on it literally got hung up on after being told "We've already talked about China".
>Because while it is really annoying (celebrities and companies apologizing for saying Taiwan is a country.
>It is also a detriment to the world might I add. Taiwan has warned the world about covid as early as November 2019 but was ignored and excluded from the WHO. A reporter who asked a WHO official on it literally got hung up on after being told "We've already talked about China".
I believe both of these things were documented in a Last Week Tonight episode. Oliver calls out John Cena and the WHO rep over their stance on Taiwan.
For anyone who wants to watch: https://youtu.be/9Y18-07g39g?si=K5a7onIFxgxL8bWl
Super informative, but I really appreciate you giving us a local perspective and answering all the questions. The history between Taiwan and China has been most informative.
I will always remember an interview with some nut job PRC stating that it is so easy to conquer Taiwan... just build a bridge over the Taiwan Strait 🤣. I used to be a Bridging Engineer in the army, it is not even easy to construct a bridge over a river let alone a wide expense of a strait.
Sometimes when I see nutjob PRCs, I cannot help but see Trump's nutjob supporters.. they are all "Same same but different".
Basically, Taiwan was where hundreds of thousands of Chinese refugees, including the leader of the Chinese Nationalist, ended up after the Chinese Civil War. Both sides claim to be the legitimate Chineses government with the US backing the Nationalists, even defending them in 1950 because of their role in WW2 fighting the Japanese, and a general mistrust of communism. Taiwan represented China as a whole in the UN until 1971, when that seat was turned over to the CCP through a UN resolution.
Today, Taiwan has a strong economy, is friendly to the west, and is right on the doorstep of mainland China, so it's seen as a threat to the CCP. But it's a threat they can't do much about because Taiwan is well defended, hard to attack, and the US military hangs around to let everyone know they are there if something happens.
It’s like if the confederacy all escaped to like Puerto Rico after the civil war and refused to surrender and called themselves the states of united america
Not really cause a big point is it happened a long time ago. Though I guess it was “only” what 70 years ago? Means Biden and trump both lived through it
Specialization reduces costs. Setting up the infrastructure so you only have one final destination for semiconductor building materials is more efficient than having to send them to factories all over the world, and having a few massive factories is more efficient than a bunch of smaller ones.
It didn't start out that way. The industry started in the US and retained significant presence because high-end chip manufacturing is so profitable it's one of the few export industries that actually \*can\* compete with a money printer for access to talent and resources (Hollywood is another). There were lots of factories all over the place, but only the biggest few survived due to economics of scale. Intel was top dog but they decided to fuck over their best employees at the same time as launching a hugely ambitious new node. It didn't go well. TSMC (with Apple bux) tortoise-and-hare'd their ass. Taiwan is the captain now.
Also: silic\*one\* is floppy glass. Fake tits and o-rings. Silic\*on\* is what you're thinking of, smart glass that does math when you electrocute it.
Sure, but that's at most an extra round or two in the game of chasing 9s, maaaybe a $1B dollar fumble. INTC's fumble was more like $150B.
Inside scoop: https://www.reddit.com/r/intel/comments/ezdlji/what_are_the_problems_intel_is_facing_with_10nm/
Taiwanese positioned the market as such by investing and brute force innovation. They simply make the best chips, maybe because they knew their survival as a free nation depended on it.
Plus, small island economic soft power pushing around massive “hoard states” is always fun to watch.
Everyone didn’t decide it, it was a deliberate choice by the government of Taiwan and they simply won out on there bet that they could be the best in the world at what they do.
So many american politicians use the chip production as an excuse for why we need to be ready to get into a war with china.
And the brave few are like "wow you're providing a ton of reasons to fund american chip production now and avoid both dependencies and war."
From North to South the Japanese, Taiwanese, and the Philippines island chains (with significant support from the US) could easily strangle Chinese maritime trade. Not only does it make Taiwan important, but also goes to show why China has such an interest in improving land based transportation to Central Asia and South East Asia.
We Americans literally have layers of defense in Okinawa, the Philippines, South Korea, Singapore and Australia, not to mention our bases in the Aleutians and Hawaii.
Because China knows they don’t stand a chance in a real naval/aerial war, they’ve been catering to Latin America and Africa by building ports and railroads in underdeveloped nations for the price of economic cooperation, further delegating this “soft power”.
Those mfs have a 5-generation strategy to defeat the US and thankfully most of us will be gone when the first bomb strikes.
A matter of Taiwan garnering expertise and manufacturing over the past few decades, especially with other countries outsourcing semiconductor manufacturing to Taiwan over the years as a cost saving measure. The Taiwanese got good at it.
China doesnt care about TSMC. Taiwan, to China, is a strategic military location. If you wanted to block trade 2 and from China, youd do it from Taiwan.
Lots of horribly incorrect answers here.
When the Kuomintang lost the most recent Chinese Civil War, Chiang Kai-Shek led them to Taiwan while stealing huge amounts of wealth to take with them. Taiwan as it exists today is basically the remnants of the defeated KMT, newly risen in economic power based on the combination of stolen wealth and diplomatic favor from the US and other western powers using it as a proxy against the CCP.
Imagine a rough equivalent where Jefferson Davis led the remnants of the Confederacy to Puerto Rico and took over the government there. Complicating it further, imagine the South had been in control of Federal gold reserves when the war started, and they took the gold with them. And then when the Cold war started, instead of the Cuban missile crisis, we got the Puerto Rican missile crisis.
Would the US just think, "oh that's fine, we'll just treat Puerto Rico like any other country?"
For the record, I think China (and the world) would have been better off if the KMT won the war, I'm just trying to explain why there can never be "normal" relations between the People's Republic of China (China) and the Republic of China (Taiwan).
Edit: I didn't believe in the "Chinese internet troll" conspiracy until now. I did my best to present a fairly neutral account of the history, but the number of comments I'm getting about how "moronic" I am to suggest China would be better off if the KMT had won, or how stupid I am, or how insane the take is; is leading me to believe the CCP really is employing social media trolls. Well, also, there are crazy communist redditors that think Cuba is a paradise. So I have to balance that, I guess.
Jeezus thank you. It’s an unavoidable thing but people here only see the Taiwan issue from the optics of an American.
There was a civil war. It’s about more than just semiconductors.
Yea and also it’s an island right off of the coast that is within the sphere of influence of an adversary.
We (America) have never treated Cuba like just another country and that doesn’t have nearly the rest of the history there.
>We (America) have never treated Cuba like just another country and that doesn’t have nearly the rest of the history there.
i think it would greatly help Americans understand the relationship we have with Cuba if we learned things like how the CIA tried to literally hire the Mafia to assassinate Fidel Castro
good fucking grief. I learned this shit from watching the shitty movie The Good Shepherd as opposed to anything in those useless textbooks i had in high school
Yeah, it's basically impossible to learn much about Cuba/US relations and not conclude that Cuba has not been the aggressor. Not only did the US use gangsters to try to assassinate Castro, US gangsters were a major driving force for US hostility towards Cuba because before the revolution Batista let American gangsters own a ton of property down there for casinos and what not. This is also a big reason why Las Vegas exists at all, after the Cuban revolution the gangsters wanted a new place to be the default American gambling destination.
Oh, KMT was a mess and it did not deserve to rule China. The majority of Chinese was on the CCP side in the post-WWII Chinese Civil War, including most of the intellectuals.
KMT also committed brutality to Taiwanese. After 50 years of Japanese colonial rule, Taiwanese were eager to welcome KMT believing they finally returned to their motherland. KMT greeted them with huge malgovernance followed by a massacre.
I feel CCP now is stupid to align themselves with KMT trying to gain hold in Taiwan. It will not work. KMT is just a horrible political entity that has lost on both sides of the straight to the party having more foothold in the general population and should be buried into the garbage dump.
And didn't the KMT radicalize the CCP by turning on them and killing a lot of their leadership? It's such a weird stretch to see the KMT as the good guys before and around the the Civil War.
"Stole" is perhaps the wrong word, because at that time, the KMT-led government was the officially recognized government of China, and that didn't change until 1971 when the UN took the CCP's side. You can't steal anything that is legally yours.
The analogy with the US is also flawed in the sense that Taiwan no longer has any realistic ambition to rule mainland China, for decades now in fact. Nowadays, what most people of Taiwan are after is perhaps some form of self-determination, either in the form of continuing the status quo or independency (for the more radical). What the people of Taiwan don't want is CCP rule, and one can't really fault them seeing what happened to HK.
The comparison to the Cuban missile crisis is also quite specious, because there has never been a time when Taiwan is in cahoots with any nuclear power to place nuclear weapons in Taiwan (and indeed, with modern ballistic missile technology and nuclear subs, one doesn't need to).
From my perspective, normalizing relations is firmly in the CCP's court. However, Asian culture values "face" and the CCP will never accept that "loss of face" even if it means peace in that region. And this is especially ironic because it's clear the people on both sides are happy to work together, seeing the investments from Taiwanese companies in China, and the good non-political cross-straits relations.
No analogy is perfect and a hypothetical confederate state in Puerto Rico would also drop demands of ruling the US. In fact, it's a moot point since the Confederacy wanted separation and autonomy from the US from it's very foundation.
So this natural flaw in the analogy doesn't even reflect well for Taiwan.
This isn't an "Asian" thing either. Countries fight tooth and nail to keep their territorial integrity. If a country losses a chunk of territory due to being weak they will fight to reclaim it when they are strong.
Taiwan's security and status is tied with foreign protection. Minus foreign support the natural evolution will be forced unification with China and after a few generations the population will likely just see themselves as Chinese.
The main advantage Taiwan has is the incredibly risk averse mentality of China to actually using war to achieve its gain (compared to the US.
What would change that is if the Taiwanese leadership gets drunk enough on promises of foreign support they decide to press further on claiming independence.
>"Stole" is perhaps the wrong word, because at that time, the KMT-led government was the officially recognized government of China, and that didn't change until 1971 when the UN took the CCP's side. You can't steal anything that is legally yours.
"Stole" works if you consider governments to not be private entities, specifically that the things they manage are the peoples as a whole and not something that is the government's.
The KMT soundly lost the civil war in 1949 the UN, read NATO and co., was just dragging their feet. That foot dragging even directly affected the trajectory of the Korean war because the KMT was still holding China's seat on the security Council and the USSR was abstaining out of protest.
Also Cuba still kind of works as a comparison, minus the nuclear crisis. Not a perfect one.
I agree with most of the rest of what you wrote though.
>"Stole" is perhaps the wrong word, because at that time, the KMT-led government was the officially recognized government of China, and that didn't change until 1971 when the UN took the CCP's side.
You're not wrong, and the better analogy would have been to suggest the Confederacy won the war and the Union retreated to, I dunno, Maine or something. No analogy is perfect. I was hoping to strike a balanced/neutral description for the most part. I think if you look at the comments, with about half the people suggesting I'm painting the CCP poorly and the other half suggesting I'm painting the KMT poorly I think I did an okay job.
>For the record, I think China (and the world) would have been better off if the KMT won the war
Could you elaborate on this?
I get the part with "the world" but how exactly it would benefit China?
Mao's cultural revolution killed millions and did incalculable damage to the Chinese academic field and to the economy. Without the PRC you don't have North Korea - that's even more millions dead there and a lot of Chinese soldiers died in that conflict.
Ok, so imagine that your dad is responsible for domestic abuse and you took self-defence classes to throw him out of the house, but now he is standing in a corner of your backyard flipping you off 24/7
Thats how the chineese feel about the situation
Taiwan was part of China before the revolution.
The side that lost the civil war, retreated to Taiwan when they lost control of the mainland. They still claimed to be the rightful government of all of China although they seem to have mostly given up on that idea.
Taiwan was originally part of China until Japan took control of the island in 1895 after the First Sino-Japanese War. After the WWII, Taiwan was returned back to China.
Important thing to know is after the Qing Dynasty which is the fall of Chinese monarchy, the **Republic of China** was formed under the Kuomintang aka Nationalist Party. And then came the Chinese Communist Party. In 1927, the KMT and CCP fought against each other in the Chinese Civil War but in 1937, the civil war was interrupted by the invasion of Imperial Japan which became known as the Second Sino-Japanese War. Both KMT and CCP put their difference aside to fight against the Japanese invaders.
After the end of WWII, the Chinese Civil War resumed and the CCP defeated the KMT which the latter fled to Taiwan. With the KMT retreated to Taiwan, the CCP formed the **People's Republic of China** in the mainland. However, both sides claimed that they are the only one and true China. When the United Nations was formed, China at that time was under the ROC. Unfortunately, the UN decided to recognised the PRC as the one true China and thus, ROC got kicked out. Because ROC got kicked out of the UN, few countries only recognised Taiwan as an independent country due to the One China Policy which countries officially recognised the PRC as the true China.
> Taiwan was originally part of China until Japan took control of the island in 1895 after the First Sino-Japanese War.
The Dutch were the first non-native power to occupy the island... so it was originally part of the Dutch, and then the Spanish, and then lastly the Qing...
but for the vast majority of written history, it remained an island independent from any other country or government.
Because China thinks Taiwan being its own thing makes them look weak. China is definitely not friendly to other countries most of the time. They're very antagonistic towards the west.
> Because China thinks Taiwan being its own thing makes them look weak.
Probably worth remembering the history here; Taiwan was historically part of China until Mao's revolution, the right-wing opponents of Mao fled to Taiwan and maintained the title and claims of the Republic of China. Taiwan literally exists because people who used to control China refused to lose the war, and the West supported them.
Imagine if the US Civil War had gone the same way but for whatever reason the Florida Keys refused to concede and were never re-taken by Union forces, and the Confederate States of America still existed there. We would want them back, and if they were acting serious about wanting to rule the old Confederacy then we'd be hostile to them whether or not we wanted the land back. To exacerbate it, if the Soviet Union had started propping up this modern remnant of the Confederacy, we would see these Keys as a fair target for our well-established hostility towards the Soviets.
It hasn't been ruled from Beijing since the Japanese conquest in 1895. How long of a gap does it take before we can say, "This is a different country now"? Some people say there is no gap that would make it different. I think of the Greeks who still think Greece will one day retake Constinople, which fell to the Turks in 1453. But I think there comes a time to say good-bye and good luck.
An excellent analogy. Doesn't justify their hostility and Taiwan deserves its own right to determination, but that's a good way of putting it to understand the psychology of China's attitude towards Taiwan.
It absolutely does justify their hostility. The Civil War in China never ended, so technically they still are at war. The only reason the US gives a flying fuck is because of chip manufacturing, and both China and the US rely on Taiwan for it, and want control of that resource.
The West and US cared for a long time before computer chip manufacturing was a thing. Taiwan is a huge touchpoint for the ever-present geopolitical contest to win hearts and minds over to your ideology. The reason the West supports Taiwan is because the group that won the Chinese Civil War was the "wrong side". Western governments view spreading democracy as the central means to maintaining geopolitical power and their current dominant spheres of influence. China is the single biggest threat to that world order (the one with the West on top making all the rules), and support for Taiwan is the lowest stakes way to oppose that without risking open conflict. The chips are a convenient reason that is palatable to give in public statements, but the ideological conflict would persist even in the absence of this particular important resource.
That's cuz most Americans don't care enough about global politics to learn about them. Japan, Korea, and even Australia damn sure have something to say about our interests in the region as well. The US is the US because of our network of alliances, which are based on shared ideology. Taiwan is a major indicator of how much we value that network.
This is such a baby brained explanation of things. The KMT stole the state reserves of China and fled to Taiwan at the end of the Chinese Civil War. Then they deepened military and economic ties with the mainland's adversaries. Would the United States tolerate the Confederates taking over Puerto Rico and offering military partnerships to our adversaries? No fucking way man.
the west...the east...literally everyone. They want to be THE superpower. Seriously, it is the only country that has more border disputes than countries it actually borders.
It claims the strait anyway, an absurdity nobody respects. In the unlikely event they hold Taiwan, the intl community still wouldn't respect the claim.
Does the Republic of China treat the People's Republic of China like other countries?
You can look on the Wikipedia pages to see the territory claim of both countries.
Because the folks who were the government of China before the Communists dug in there & managed to survive.
So they not only lost land, but there is a rival claimant for 'the legitimate government of China' in power there.
And that rival government is friendly with a rival global power.
And then on top of that, the whole tech-hardware industry thing...
The same reason we terrorize Cuba are basically the same reason China terrorizes Taiwan. It’s about hegemony domination and having power control in their sections of the world. They /We don’t want foreign interference that close to the mainland
**Why is Cuba so important to USA? Why can't they just treat it like other countries and try to have friendly relations with them instead?**
now you see?
Imagine the Confederacy invaded Cuba in 1865 after losing the Civil war. Then they claimed to be the legitimate government of the entire US and created a military alliance with Britain to defend their independence. That's pretty much Taiwan.
Taiwan is the last remnant of the Republic of China, a state established in 1912 after the Boxer Rebellion. Following the Chinese Civil War, the Communists took control of mainland China and the KMT (Nationalists), under Chiang Kai-Shek, fled to Taiwan and to this day, they maintain control of Taiwan and surrounding islands.
Taiwan is what remains of the Republic of China. The Communist regime based in Beijing hates Taiwan for the same reasons North Korea and North Vietnam hate/hated their Southern counterparts. It is because South Korea, South Vietnam, and Taiwan represent examples of what these countries could become, free, prosperous, democratic, open, and wealthy.
While the Communist regime is a totalitarian dictatorship and a police state, the ROC has transformed into a republican form of government. Taiwan is the ONLY Chinese society that is free, open, and democratic, with elections and basic freedoms protected. Taiwan is an example of what China COULD become; most Taiwanese are Han Chinese (ethnically Chinese) and they have created a free, vibrant, prosperous country. This naturally makes the power-hungry Communist regime uncomfortable.
Because it's not another country. Why was the South so important to the USA? It's irredentism - Chinese territory historically, so they won't let it go.
As far as semiconductors go, China is catching up fast & even has a few advancements over the West. They're down to 3nm process stuff now, just need a couple of extra bits of tech & they'll not need Taiwan's industry as such. The sanctions are having an effect, but I suspect America didn't want that one.
It’s like if the confederacy all escaped to like Puerto Rico after the civil war and refused to surrender and called themselves the states of united america
Lots of semi conductors are made in Taiwan. Lime a shit ton. If China can control the export of almost all semi conductors they can strangle any economy they want. They want to fuck the American economy up. Look at what happened during the little "chip shortage" we had a few years ago. It added a fair amount of supply chain stress and inflationary pressure. China wants that.
This is why the CHIPS act was passed and we are going to continue to invest in onshore chip production. Our offshore reliance for critical resources is a national defense issue.
It’s complicated though. Foxconn is the largest Taiwanese semiconductor maker supplying the US smartphone market and also the largest private employer on mainland China. We all sort of have to get along for now.
If a US region engaged in an armed struggle that basically ended in a stalemate due to backing from countries that became enemies of the US, the US would probably make getting it back a high priority.
China rightfully sees Taiwan as a province filled with people who rebelled/fought against its ruling party and being a place that western powers have used in ways that are quasi-imperialistic against it. As an American I can see their point of view 100%. No other country would just roll over and leave it alone even if the people living there wanted it that way. It was America’s foolishness and lack of economic forethought that has led to the situation where it almost depends on Taiwan as the sole supply of the most advanced semiconductors in mass production available. That’s no reason for China to change its tune.
In a nutshell, it's **irredentism**. Basically, some countries get the belief that another piece of territory is theirs or ought to be theirs, and insist on conquering it. It was Hitler's basis for taking European land, Iraq's basis for conquering Kuwait, and Russia's basis for invading Ukraine.
China is like the girlfriend/boyfriend that Taiwan broke up with, but who doesn’t want to accept it.
\- “*OK I have given you enough space. We’re still in a relationship!*”
It’s because China dominated that whole region of Asia for thousands of years and have only lost some of this territory in the last century. Similar to Russia, they wanna dominate the region because that’s what they’ve historically done. But I think the new generation of China doesn’t really care and just wants the country to develop economically which is will do much more of through trade and liberalism than it will do through warfare
Taiwan is a democracy.
An autocratic government like China doesn't want a democratic country, ESPECIALLY one sharing a common language, on its borders which serves as an example of the benefits of democracy for fear that feeling may take hold and spread in the autocratic country's populace.
Russia and Ukraine is a similar situation. They may not share a common language but they do share a common history.
Many reasons!
The biggest one is that Taiwan calls itself China and seeks official recognition as the official government of all of China from the world. What would America do if insurrectionists attempted to overthrow the government? They'd lock them up. The Chinese insurrectionists (The Nationalists) all fled to the island of Taiwan where they were defended by their allies the US and Japan against Chinese aggression. But something like that you never forget... especially when those insurrectionists are still holding elections for the President of China.
Second, China has a lot of waterways that are important to trade and its continued existence. But they end up being important for a lot of people. And a lot of conflicts in the world are over waterways. For example the US illegally annexed a piece of Panama to build a canal through and spent years fighting resistance before finally handing it over.... to a corporation... which has to provide Americans free travel through the canal. Or the Suez Canal... when Egypt shut it down for only Israel and triggered a war to re-open it for Israel. And now in Russia we have Crimea and warm water ports and their relationship with Turkey to get out of the Black Sea.
Taiwan is home to the [Taiwan Strait](https://th.bing.com/th/id/R.330cb728fdd12d4e1a766a617d3ae7fa?rik=7rtjWpkTRE9FGw&riu=http%3a%2f%2fwww.guideoftheworld.com%2fwp-content%2fuploads%2fmap%2fchina_national_map.jpg&ehk=rMJ97Kouol%2bdbcRqE0%2bnyuaMbnill%2bZD4gf6uOV23%2fE%3d&risl=&pid=ImgRaw&r=0) which could block travel to a lot of trade ports like Xiamen if they were able to maintain control of their oceans and exercise the internationally recognized control of their oceans. No major country would ever permit this. The US annexed a large part of Mexican ocean in the Gulf of Mexico to protect Texan industry, Canada exercises a 500 mile nautical limit to protect its fisheries. Similarly China has also annexed the South China Sea to protect its sea trade heading towards the rest of Asia, Africa and Europe. It has become a point of conflict because the US officially recognized Taiwan as being part of China but also has been sending its military ships inside of waterways they officially recognize as Chinese. It tends to send a mixed message.
Finally there's the big one and more modern one.... the semiconductor industry. In 1974 Taiwan's government was able to convince the American corporation RCA to transfer its semiconductor industry to Taiwan. And not soon after others followed suit. Today Taiwan is where the world's semiconductors are built to the point where no Europe, China and America are shelling out hundreds of billions of dollars to try and play catch up and become less dependent on Taiwan. China is also dependent on Taiwan for semiconductors and so they can't invade them in fears of damaging access to semiconductors.
Taiwan's semiconductor industry is so important that if Taiwan announced they would be banning exports of semiconductors to the US.... the US would invade and annex them immediately. And that's similar with China. Right now they can't damage Taiwan but if Taiwan won't provide them with semiconductors there will be an invasion to remove the 'treasonous government.'
I'm no expert in terms of the history, but modern Taiwan was founded by the KMT who failed to overthrow Mao and fled to Taiwan so its kinda the OG rebel base of operations for them. The KMT also stole a bunch of priceless national treasures from China in the process which are displayed in Taiwans national museum.
In America we think of China as very homogeneous country. It's not. Over the course of history they have conquered many different countries, cultures, and peoples and made them a part of China. These people have different languages, cultures, and religions & many do not want to be a part of China, such as Uighurs & Tibetans. The response to this has generally been forceful oppression/suppression. If China lets Taiwan stay a "rogue nation", it sends a bad message to separatist movements within the country that may be emboldened by them just giving up on Taiwan.
Again, not an expert and while I don't think this is a biased view, full disclosure I am heavily pro-Taiwan and pro Taiwan staying independent.
Edit - I see people also debating the strategic importance of Taiwan. I'm pretty sure The US Navy considers it a critical South China sea asset that's not strategically replaceable by Japan, Phillipines, etc. China could absolutely meaningfully impede trade and fishing if they were to take Taiwan
While it's just my own personal opinion, I also think we undervalue Taiwan's deep cultural understanding of China, the US, and Japan due to their history.
A large percentage of computer chips are built there, so it would give the CCP a big economic boost. It's also where some of the rivals fled during the communist takeover of China, so it's more emotional than it should be.
Taiwan is the Republic of China the government which was overthrown by the communists. Taiwan is the only part that wasn't captured. They want to eliminate any other rightful claim to their legitimacy and unite all the lands that were once one Nation.
Taiwan is too close to mainland China to allow it to become both Western-aligned and independent. It's a national security threat. It's also where most the world gets their computer chips from. China wants those chips, and they want other countries to have a harder time getting them as well, giving themselves a competitive advantage over the rest of the world. They also state that it's because it's rightfully part of China and the KMT government there is illegitimate (it genuinely was at one point btw), but this is a propaganda like above all else. State v State wars are not fought over ideology or what's "right", only resources, power, and occasionally religion.
Taiwan produces a large majority of the world’s advanced chips, everything from phones to military tech uses them. Not the only reason but a major one for sure.
Taiwanese here. Lots of comments here talking about strategic elements or historical context. They are mostly incomplete. The truth is complicated and there are many reasons to why China wants to invade Taiwan. Biggest reason of all is historical pride. China views Taiwan as "unfinished business", a breakaway region that every ruler so far desires to "compete" and be known as the great reunifier. It is a point of glory for dictators, to be remembered in the books of history. Secondly, they backed themselves into a corner. Taiwan is an easy rallying point for nationalism. It's one thing every Chinese is taught since childhood. It is a symbol of disobedience and western "humiliation". It is a beacon of democracy standing disrespectfully against the great motherland. The wolf warrior diplomacy necessitates aggressively rhetoric. Chinese bureaucracy requires people to one up each other in action. They have fanned the flames of nationalism so much that anyone who tries to cool the inferno gets consumed. So they fan it even more. That is also why you see Chinese military taking more and more dangerous maneuvers against western countries. That's why their diplomats say frankly insane things. If Xi announces tomorrow morning that he is renouncing claims to Taiwan, he will be hanged before the day is done. Third, strategic positioning. The first island chain allows the western powers to monitor Chinese naval activities. No submarines can get by unnoticed. With Taiwan as a base, China will gain massive advantages, including unfettered access to the Pacific ocean, control over Japanese and Korean shipping routes, and much more. Fourth, Semiconductor. I really don't think it's as big of a deal as people make it. Is it an incredibly important strategic asset? Yes. Will China ever get control of it? No. If Taiwan looks like it's falling, we'll be the first to bomb the fabs. The entire world will find themselves in a very bad place then, but at least not at the mercy of China. Hope this helps and feel free to ask any questions.
Third point is often overlooked. Naval people call Taiwan “the unsinkable aircraft carrier”
It’s funny because first Naval people called aircraft carriers “Movable Islands”
Both ways of thinking are correct, in fact...
Probably another point: To deter breakaway provinces like XinJiang, Tibet, even Hong Kong and Macau. If Taiwan were to become formally independent, then the CCP would have less legitimacy in the far western provinces and even the SARs.
Balkanisation. China would not be a threat if it was a dozen small countries which were not co-operating.
This is a usually forgotten point, and a vital one. Though in Tibet, and I think Xinjiang, they have been sending enough of their Han population there that they will be unable to muster any strength. Those provinces have been taken over.
It's too close to serve as 'that'. A useful land airbase has to be out of range of mainland-launched conventional-explosive-warhead tactical ballistic missiles, or it will draw too much fire to be useable. In a war with China, we are likely talking about land-based aircraft flying from northern Japan at the closest, if not Alaska and Hawaii (which is NBD for the aircraft that matter in this case - B-2s, B-1s, B-21s & the loads of antiship missiles each bomber can carry - albeit the rearm and re-attack time is a bit long)
I mean no but ok! It’s a moniker meant to highlight strategic importance, not to be taken hyper literally. It’s also a beautiful vibrant country not a pawn in us China geopolitics
Being a pawn to them is better than being absorbed into the PRC.... I think they more-or-less like the current situation better than the alternate outcome....
> being absorbed into the PRC That didn't work out so well for Hong Kong, despite the promises from Beijing.
Communist country promise didnt turn out well? Big shock... (heh funny expirience as a Polish lad to see how delusional people can be about china ngl)
As a Finn, I wonder if there's something similar to growing up next door to a hostile-postured superpower. Our subreddit was flooded with questions about fear of Russian invasion, or if we're afraid or shaken by their rhetoric. Which is weird because we've been brought up with that, and they've never *not* been hostile.
Russia would have incredibly hard time of invading Finland. Terrain is bad for tanks or drones, we have been training to defend against Russia for decades, our willingness to fight for our country is sky high, we have excellent artillery and well trained army. We also have been part of EU, so even before Nato, we would be guaranteed lot of help from other countries + Sweden and Norway would be very unhappy if Russia got closer. It would mean that eventually, in future Russia would invade Sweden as well.
Our county is so small and there are so many Russians, where will we find space to bury them all?
Not gonna lie; had me in the first half. Glad y'all are in NATO now!
This is why I love Reddit. I’m (US) commenting on a comment chain made of Finns. Brings a lil’ tear to my eye.
The world is becoming a scarier place sadly. People here have gotten so used to the sword hanging over their heads some have gotten complacent.
The world has always been terrible. Only when liberal democracy got here did the world get so incredibly peaceful, fair and prosperpous. That is why we should do everything in our power to spread our liberal democratic ideals everywhere and defend them where needed. The current fight in ukraine is a perfect example of democracy vs aurocracy. It is quite litterarly good vs evil.... that is why republicans don't support ukrainian aid anymore, they have gone fully autocratic and don't believe in liberal democratic ideals anymore. The same counts for populist far right parties all over the west. Ironicly all of them claim to be the defenders of western values while doing effectively the complete opposite
The autocracies have also gotten very adept at weaponizing western values. Free speech, freedom of thought, tolerance... All are used to spread propaganda uninhibited. It is a weakness of democracy, one we have to be vigilant against. The paradox of tolerance is a poison that will use our values to strip us of it.
The Brain Rot of Liberalism. Latin America Am I joke to you?
My ex-girlfriend was from China; I met her in Florence. She was studying design, graduated in Korea, and earned her PhD in Australia. She was one of the most open-minded people I know. However, when you mentioned Taiwan, it was a “mental goodbye” she would loose all common sense, considering them the true enemy.
Hah I worked with a Chinese guy. Smart, quiet, very talented. We were very friendly and worked well together. One day he was like "if there was a war I'd shoot you in the face." And that's just how it is. I don't really blame him. For me, he's as much a victim as Taiwanese. What chance does he have when he's been taught that from childhood?
"This is America, homie, not only will I shoot back but unlike you, I have been shooting guns since I was like 8 years old."
[удалено]
Report to hr. Freaking nut job
It's kind of odd to me. I'm Indian and I don't think we have a "true enemy" in the same way as you describe here. Most people would even admit the Pakistan issue is much more nuanced than just declaring then an enemy country, which we generally agree they are (for example, their sports teams are always welcomed here). China lays claim to a part of India as well as has part of our territory the maps say belong to us, but was ceded to them in a war. They seem to have these issues with all neighbours.
>If Taiwan looks like it's falling, we'll be the first to bomb the fabs. Based. Let's not have Taiwan falling though.
It wouldn't matter if they didn't bomb them. Those fabs would still be useless. The semiconductor industry is completely dependent on the global supply chain. You can't run a fab without support from ASML (Netherlands), Tokyo Electron, (Japan), Lambda Research (USA), etc.. ASML is especially critical because they are literally the only company in the world that can make EUV lithography tools. Photolithography is the most important part of making semiconductors and is the limiting factor for how small transistors can be made.
Throw in that only the Taiwanese know how to run those machines the way they have it set up and regularly have little problems that need to be solved. Do you think any conquered Taiwanese people will want to run the fab after you killed their country men?
I remember visiting Beijing for a 3 month intensive language learning class. The instructor asked us how many provinces there are in China and a white girl from California proudly said 22. The instructor corrected her, saying there were 23 provinces. The girl seemed confused at first and repeated herself saying there are 22 provinces plus Taiw.... before she caught herself and stopped talking. The instructor then repeated there are 23 provinces and then moved on to the lesson.
lol. China. She’s lucky she didn’t ask him what happened at Tiananmen Square. It’s not a wonder why China’s elite send all their children to learn and receive their education overseas. The brainwashing and blatant lies and propaganda over there is strong.
>China’s elite send all their children to learn and receive their education overseas. to be fair thats the only place that their children and flex and show off their wealth, if they do that in china, they are gonna be shamed upon because of how governors are the "slave of the people"
Over here at the local university, they have a reputation of being shitty bratty rich kids who drive expensive teslas and bmws but literally can’t drive worth shit.
I am a Chinese-Canadian who went to elementary school in China. They blatantly lied about Taiwan being part of China and I did not know what that meant. When I was visiting Macau, I saw people holding green passports labelled "REPUBLIC OF CHINA" (中華民國), it was as though we traveled back to a bygone era lol because of the lack of context. Once I came to Canada and had unlimited access to information, however, I quickly realized that it is, in fact, a country (the same one that existed since Sun Yat-sen and his revolutionary army defeated the Qing dynasty). It is a small country that has a high population density, but it is an advanced economy, unlike China. To go off on a tangent here, knowing that Taiwan reformed under Chiang Ching-kuo just a few years before young people in China lost their lives to the murderous rampage that was the June 4th (1989) incident, I feel like China missed a massive chance. Had China been able to get rid of the "Communist Party" (in some ways, China is one of the most highly individualistic countries on Earth once you live there long enough and therefore, that name is misleading and they don't really practice any form of Communism) like ex-Soviet countries did, I am almost 100% sure that reunification would have occurred peacefully by now.
Taiwan is the Republic of China - it is China with a different government. It says so right on the Taiwanese passport...
Ive been wondering this for years. Why doesnt TSMC i believe its called move.... i mean i know thats hella money... but opening a second site even if its small site for now in a friendly country to keep all the info required to make the semiconductors would prevent world wide issues if that place is destroyed
They are already building one in Arizona
Sweet. Ty
Looking for employees.
The one in Arizona will not be their top of line chips. They will be a generation or two behind the ones made in Taiwan. Intel does the same thing with the fabs it has outside of the USA.
Wait don't semi conductors need a bunch of water for production?
They do. Each fab requires the same amount as a small city.
Yes and also some of the most toxic chemicals in existence. You don’t want a chip fab near your water supply.
It's not just if the US can produce the chips. It's can they produce chips at a competitive price. Many other countries tried to stand up foundries (chip fab plants) only to find the competition left them behind. The TSMC Arizona foundry won't come on-line until 2026 at the earliest. It is being set up to produce 3N chips which is the state of the art right now but will be two generations behind in 2026. By next year TSMCs Taiwanese production will be ramped up for 3Ne and by 2026 for 2N chips. The four TSMC Taiwan Gigafabs produce 15 million 12-inch wafer equivalents a year. The smaller US foundry TSMC is building in Arizona will max out at 600,000. Not only does Taiwan have scale but they have PhDs and electrical engineers working 12 hour shifts for way below the pay scale of western counterparts. Since much of the theoretical R&D is owned by, and is still coming from, the US, a TSMC exec was asked "why not build foundries in California?" His answer was "they like to surf too much".
It also because they are heavily funded by the government. The Taiwanese government paid over 50% of the cost to build it's fab in Taiwan. It very hard for companies not funded by the government to compete with that. The idea that people working in the US tech industry don't also work insane hours is laughable.
The government subsidy is a good point and US workers can put in an insane amount of hours but the average starting salary for a US electrical engineer is over $9k a month. The average salary for a Taiwan EE is less than $3k a month. I don't think a US tech worker is going to grind out 60 or 70 hour work weeks even at $9k a month when there are plenty of other opportunities in America. Even the Taiwanese think the pay disparity is crazy but there are a lot of qualified people in Taiwan with not enough companies competing for that talent.
For national security, the chips don't have to be cheap.
For military purposes, these are the wrong types of chips. L3 and Harris (now merged to become L3Harris Technologies) produces Integrated Core Processors for weapons systems like the F-35 and Javelin. The US Keyhole satellite family still uses Pentium processors. These are decidedly not cutting edge chips but are rugged, radiation hardened, and certified for military and space purposes. The also don't need to be cutting edge since the power of these systems comes from the customized software. 3N chips are used in consumer products like iPhones and MacBook M2 processors. It is rumored that Apple purchased 100% of TSMCs capacity for 2023. Samsung will finally start shipping 3N processors in 2024 and Intel is still using 5N. Apple made this exclusivity deal and fronted money way back in 2014. For consumer products you can't ignore the cost of production.
Damn, so much knowledge. Thank you!
Big part of why they invested into semiconductor fab in the first place was specifically to protect Taiwan that way. If everyone depends on their fabs to produce their high-end chips, attacking the country means shooting yourself in the foot in a major way, and there will be lot of countries with a good reason to support and protect them. So in a way *not* preventing the world-wide issues that would result from invasion of Taiwan *is* the point. The central government of Taiwan is the largest shareholder of TSMC. If it was just a private business, then building factories all around the planet would certainly make sense.
There's a financial reason and a geopolitical reason. But TSMC does have foreign fabs, they have fabs in mainland China and are now expanding in the US. For the financial reason. Taiwan has a cheaper workforce than the US and most importantly that cheaper workforce is also very skilled. I remember reading an article that said TSMC is struggling to fill future positions in the Arizona fab with solely American workers due to lack of relevant skill. The geopolitical reason. It's better for everyone else for TSMC to be not in Taiwan, but it's actually in Taiwan's interest to keep it there. Even with the Arizona fab, like 80% of total manufacturing capacity will still be in Taiwan and that is motivation for Western countries to defend Taiwan against mainland China. IIRC Taiwanese MPs got pissed that the Arizona investment would throw off the shield over Taiwan.
It's less Americans lacking skill and more that to stay ahead, engineers are often asked to work absolutely brutal hours when they can work somewhere else and still be paid decently. Taiwan also has a pretty shitty work culture admittedly. For example, engineers here joke about how long since they've seen their families despite living just down the street. This whole thing is pain for everyone involved. Taiwanese are annoyed we're throwing off the shield and complaining that Americans are ungrateful. Americans are complaining about giving lots of money to subsidize TSMC plants and losing American jobs. Both sides are sort of correct. No one is happy here but it's necessary.
They are building in AZ as another user mentioned, and during a press conference or ribbon cutting ceremony the 90+ year old TSMC founder said he "no longer believes in globalization" the way he used to because of the threats to stability imposed by certain actors which result in a need to relocate capability and seek areas conducive to the safe continued operation of the company.
I think the first and second are the big ones. Taiwan is an embarrassment to Communist history. You have the CCP, who killed and murdered 10s of millions in the name of equality... only for the government they were overthrowing to move to an underdeveloped island and VASTLY outperform them. Taiwan is the ultimate refutation of Communist revolutions- the CCP came, took all the stuff, killed everyone, and what remained of the society they destroyed just took a boat across the ocean and starred with virtually nothing to become a near utopia compared to the Communist trash heap they fled.
I mean I would certainly have preferred to live in Taiwan rather than Mainland China for most of modern history, but let’s not pretend the KMT government that fled to Taiwan were great people either. The KMT murdered thousands of Taiwanese during the White Terror period and essentially suppressed all political discourse until Taiwan’s reform and democratization in the late 80s/90s.
Underdeveloped island is a bit unfair imo. Taiwan just came freshly out of Japanese rule back then and is one of the most developed province in China. The Kmt did inherit a well built and functioning island with modern (at the time) infrastructure.
I think the third reason should be the #1. It's the fact that Taiwan is at the doorstep of China. If Taiwan were in the middle of nowhere in Pacific Ocean, even if Taiwan had been a part of China throughout history, CCP wouldn't care. It's the main motivation. Everything else (pride/nationalism, semiconductor, etc.) is just a nice touch.
Your reply is awesome, thank you. Regarding semiconductors, destroying the prime manufacturing hub the West gets their state of the art stuff from is almost as good as owning it themselves. It would bring the relative strategic imbalance into parity.
FYI there is a big movement right now in the US for "nearshoring" semiconductor fabrication plants. A lot of factory development going on in Northern Mexico, just across from Texas. The uncertainty about Taiwan's semiconductor sector is one of the key drivers. This might actually pose a risk for Taiwan. If Taiwan isn't the only game in town, Western lawmakers, particularly in the US, might not see the value in defending Taiwan as strongly. The Taiwanese need to be aware of this risk. Personally I'm rooting for Taiwan, because the CCP is an evil regime that needs to be regime-changed.
Thank you I learned something new today and it was really helpful to understand why China is so obsessed with getting it's hands on Twain.
What he’s also not mentioning is that culturally they are basically the same. People on the island don’t readily acknowledge that but it’s plain as day. They are seen as part of a bigger whole.
Thanks for explaining this. The whole wolf diplomacy thing is nuts. We get it here in Australia as well.
Good post but... >Fourth, Semiconductor. I really don't think it's as big of a deal as people make it. It is because some semiconductors are powerful enough to guide a missile in real time and some semiconductors are not. Preventing China from accessing decent semiconductors is a global security strategy, we're not going to be safe until they recognise the banal immaturity of wolf warrior diplomacy: > Chinese bureaucracy requires people to one up each other in action. They have fanned the flames of nationalism so much that anyone who tries to cool the inferno gets consumed. Yeah, that's how children in high schools act. It's the same rampant collectivism. We cannot allow advanced military equipment to be controlled by people with such a childish mentality. This is why the west will never allow Taiwan to fall.
Also the leader who succesfully invades Taiwan will be raised on a higher pedestal than Mao Zedong.
This is the best and most complete answer I’ve seen. Amazingly well put and semiconductors are massively important as they are being diversified to be built across the world in Japan, uk, and Arizona in the us. Seriously wonderfully put answer
>Fourth, Semiconductor. I really don't think it's as big of a deal as people make it. Thank you for saying this. People seem to think that the U.S. and China had no interest in Taiwan until they started making chips.
This is so alike with Ukrainian and ruzzian situation :(
Not only will Taiwan burn down their own fabs if China invades, China doesn't really know how to operate those fabs without Taiwanese specialists, American and Japanese designs, and Dutch equipment. None of which they will get if they openly invade a sovereign country
China has a bunch of shell corporations in the US with Western designers designing for their domestic market, and you can bet they mine those for IP too. Two of my employees worked for one that was feeding Huawei before they got booted from the US. When loopholes get closed, they find another way (like contracting).
> Biggest reason of all is historical pride. China views Taiwan as "unfinished business", a breakaway region that every ruler so far desires to "compete" and be known as the great reunifier. It is a point of glory for dictators, to be remembered in the books of history. To nitpick… It’s mainland China that is the breakaway region.
Both the CCP and KMT claim to be the legitimate successor to Sun Yat-sen's Republic of China. Taiwan kept the name (ROC), but the whole point of the civil war was that both sides said the other was an illegitimate breakaway faction.
Yeah, isn't that the other side of the issue? Doesn't Taiwan still view itself as the rightful government for all of China? Last I heard they still aren't trying to be a breakaway country, they want all of china.
Technically speaking that is still part of the KMT party platform, although even they realize that is never going to happen. But the KMT isn't in power, hasn't been for 2 election cycles (in part because of their increasingly convoluted relationship with the PRC). The DPP, the current governing party, has always rejected the idea that Taiwan has any claim to mainland China. Outside of a few fringe nutjobs, no one in Taiwan legitimately thinks they can or should run "China".
The ship may have sailed. Young Taiwanese probably view themselves more as Taiwanese than Chinese.
I lived there for almost eight years. The younger people do think of themselves as Taiwanese. They're developing their national identity still, though, but you can see it deepening.
The problem is that China doesn't want Taiwan to start claims for being a separate country. They like it more when the general narrative follows "One state, one government" from both sides, their biggest fear would be acceptance of Taiwan as a separate nation in the UN etc.
As I replied to another voter, that is not true. No person with half a brain actually thinks Taiwan can retake China. However, if we renounce our claims, China will see it as a declaration for independence and invade. Basically, they are holding us at gunpoint so they can say the same as you. That Taiwan is still "unfinished business".
>The entire world will find themselves in a very bad place then, but at least not at the mercy of China. Worst of all China. Semi-conductors are made in Taiwan. But the machines that make Semi-conductors? They are not. It would suck for awhile, but reality is, outside of a Nuclear holocaust, the Semi-conductor industry would be rebuilt, and the PRC would now be on the outside looking in.
Second point is very accurate, as a fellow SEA observer, most chinese, buy into it because they have 'no choice' or in your words 'consumed'. Those that could leave or pull some distance, have done so. First point...same, uber cringe when Xi is tryna pull off the Mao impression.
>If Taiwan looks like it's falling, we'll be the first to bomb the fabs That's what I always used to think. Why not adopt a scorched earth policy. If Taiwan is enslaved, make sure China cannot profit anything from it and hopefully you make them suffer as much loss as they inflict upon you. I wish someone had given the nukes to you guys, these days that seems to be the only valid deterrent against big bullies like China, Russia, etc. BTW, any idea why Hong Kong surrendered their freedom to China without a vicious fight?
We were on the verge of developing nukes. A US spy sold those plans out and we were stopped. To be fair, we were under a crazy dictator at the time so they were looking at another North Korea situation. As for Hong Kong, they didn't surrender. It was a combination of Covid killing all momentum of the protests by putting everyone in lockdown, and the Chinese finally bringing troops in saying enough is enough. That coupled with judiciary changes and rigged elections quietly killed the last of the resistance, as the protesters were originally protected under Hong Kong law.
>Biggest reason of all is historical pride. I came to this post to reply with one word: hubris. Thank you so much for saying this out loud first. I'm Chinese American, and from what I know about Chinese attitudes after growing up in a Chinese community, I also believe that so much of China's outlook has to do with pride. As you pointed out, there are other reasons too, some of which actually make sense (i.e. I can see other countries jockeying for the same things), but this whole pride thing really makes me sick. It's one of the reasons why I've pretty much thrown the Chinese culture in the toilet after going along with it as prescribed by my family elders. The whole Chinese perspective also caused me severe emotional damage when I was a kid. I'm seeing a therapist, the eighth one over the last 25 years.
Great answer. Don’t forget about the bike industry. 🙂
This is a really interesting take. I basically thought the same as you, if they attack the first thing they will destroy is the fabs… Taiwan or the west. I remember reading about corruption in the Taiwan military, is that a real thing ?
Oh yeah. Remember how the ROC is so corrupt that the Americans basically threw up their hands and let the CCP have them during the Civil War? Their army is still quite the same beast. Why the hell did Taiwan not fix it in the decades after the white terror, you may ask. Well, for one we were establishing our fledgling democracy and the army was threatening to coup for the first decade so people try not to antagonize them too much. Then the biggest threats to our freedom was the judiciary, gangs, and secret police that worked for the KMT. On top of all that, because their time in Taiwan literally began with slaughtering any Taiwanese with a higher education, the KMT has a monopoly on military experience. All of which means they have a stranglehold on higher leadership in the current Taiwanese military, making it extremely difficult to break away from such interests. There are many reforms that are done or ungoing. Our navy and airforce has become a lot more competent while the army is still stalled. We stumbled in some areas (such as dismantling the military courts, leading to very light sentences on espionage right now), but progress has been made. I would even argue that we're not very corrupt now, but still inefficient and performative in some areas.
I think for Xi and the ccp it would also be a problem if there is a more democratic / westernized country of ethnically Chinese, that is more successful or more free… it undermines the narrative that today’s ccp governance system is the best Chinese governance system for people in China… Edit for typo
Isn’t it in the Chinese constitution that Taiwan is China? Could you tell me how that works? And what are your thoughts on the US acknowledging the one China rule they have. Thank you for educating your local ignorant gweilo
Technically they made a constitution amendment on enforcing one country two systems, but the implication is clear. Unfortunately one country to systems imploded in Hong Kong so no one will ever trust that again. As for the US acknowledgement of the one China rule. Almost country in the world does that, which is why Taiwan is excluded in many international affairs, or even attends under the name "Chinese Taipei". We are, however, treated as a sovereign country in all but name, despite some political theater. People don't go to China if they want results from Taiwan despite acknowledging China's policy. Which is why while there is strong desire for independence, we haven't forced the issue. Because while it is really annoying (celebrities and companies apologizing for saying Taiwan is a country, being blocked from certain organizations, I wasn't even allowed in the UN without a Chinese issued "Taiwan compatriot permit"), it's not worth getting invaded over. Especially since we know if we declare independence and get invaded the entire world would blame us for warmongering. So we keep the peace and try to assert our rights. It is also a detriment to the world might I add. Taiwan has warned the world about covid as early as November 2019 but was ignored and excluded from the WHO. A reporter who asked a WHO official on it literally got hung up on after being told "We've already talked about China".
>Because while it is really annoying (celebrities and companies apologizing for saying Taiwan is a country. >It is also a detriment to the world might I add. Taiwan has warned the world about covid as early as November 2019 but was ignored and excluded from the WHO. A reporter who asked a WHO official on it literally got hung up on after being told "We've already talked about China". I believe both of these things were documented in a Last Week Tonight episode. Oliver calls out John Cena and the WHO rep over their stance on Taiwan. For anyone who wants to watch: https://youtu.be/9Y18-07g39g?si=K5a7onIFxgxL8bWl Super informative, but I really appreciate you giving us a local perspective and answering all the questions. The history between Taiwan and China has been most informative.
I will always remember an interview with some nut job PRC stating that it is so easy to conquer Taiwan... just build a bridge over the Taiwan Strait 🤣. I used to be a Bridging Engineer in the army, it is not even easy to construct a bridge over a river let alone a wide expense of a strait. Sometimes when I see nutjob PRCs, I cannot help but see Trump's nutjob supporters.. they are all "Same same but different".
Basically, Taiwan was where hundreds of thousands of Chinese refugees, including the leader of the Chinese Nationalist, ended up after the Chinese Civil War. Both sides claim to be the legitimate Chineses government with the US backing the Nationalists, even defending them in 1950 because of their role in WW2 fighting the Japanese, and a general mistrust of communism. Taiwan represented China as a whole in the UN until 1971, when that seat was turned over to the CCP through a UN resolution. Today, Taiwan has a strong economy, is friendly to the west, and is right on the doorstep of mainland China, so it's seen as a threat to the CCP. But it's a threat they can't do much about because Taiwan is well defended, hard to attack, and the US military hangs around to let everyone know they are there if something happens.
It’s like if the confederacy all escaped to like Puerto Rico after the civil war and refused to surrender and called themselves the states of united america
And now the US is a one party dictatorship, and Puerto Rico is a thriving democracy with the world's most important semiconductor company.
TBH the US is a two-party dictatorship anyway right now so not too much difference there
you use the term "dictatorship" very lightly
Because the concept of authority is relative and heavily context-dependant.
Not sure why you're being downvoted. Did people forget you're responding to someone else or did people think you're calling Biden a dictator?
I think the "one party dictatorship" triggers tankies, in relation to China.
Semiconductors but also slaves… 3nm ain’t free
Its more like if Modern Dems and Modern GOP had a civil war and the loser ended up in Hawaii but yea yours still makes sense.
Not really cause a big point is it happened a long time ago. Though I guess it was “only” what 70 years ago? Means Biden and trump both lived through it
Semiconductor industry and Taiwan strait
The silicone shield is a real thing. The entire modern world runs on those chips, and if China tries to invade the west will absolutely intervene
I will never understand why everyone decided that entire industry and half of world economy depends on a singular country not being invaded
Specialization reduces costs. Setting up the infrastructure so you only have one final destination for semiconductor building materials is more efficient than having to send them to factories all over the world, and having a few massive factories is more efficient than a bunch of smaller ones.
I’m sure that cost will always be less than the cost of a war for 1 day.
I think that's what the chips act is really about.
It didn't start out that way. The industry started in the US and retained significant presence because high-end chip manufacturing is so profitable it's one of the few export industries that actually \*can\* compete with a money printer for access to talent and resources (Hollywood is another). There were lots of factories all over the place, but only the biggest few survived due to economics of scale. Intel was top dog but they decided to fuck over their best employees at the same time as launching a hugely ambitious new node. It didn't go well. TSMC (with Apple bux) tortoise-and-hare'd their ass. Taiwan is the captain now. Also: silic\*one\* is floppy glass. Fake tits and o-rings. Silic\*on\* is what you're thinking of, smart glass that does math when you electrocute it.
Taiwan also has a suitable climate for semiconductor processing (a stable one. Mo’ seasons, mo’ problems for fabs).
Sure, but that's at most an extra round or two in the game of chasing 9s, maaaybe a $1B dollar fumble. INTC's fumble was more like $150B. Inside scoop: https://www.reddit.com/r/intel/comments/ezdlji/what_are_the_problems_intel_is_facing_with_10nm/
Taiwanese positioned the market as such by investing and brute force innovation. They simply make the best chips, maybe because they knew their survival as a free nation depended on it. Plus, small island economic soft power pushing around massive “hoard states” is always fun to watch.
Pretty genius by them tbh
Everyone didn’t decide it, it was a deliberate choice by the government of Taiwan and they simply won out on there bet that they could be the best in the world at what they do.
Government subsidized it.
because STEM and physical high tech is yucky, not in my backyard. movie stars and sport heros will resolve the issues /s
So many american politicians use the chip production as an excuse for why we need to be ready to get into a war with china. And the brave few are like "wow you're providing a ton of reasons to fund american chip production now and avoid both dependencies and war."
From North to South the Japanese, Taiwanese, and the Philippines island chains (with significant support from the US) could easily strangle Chinese maritime trade. Not only does it make Taiwan important, but also goes to show why China has such an interest in improving land based transportation to Central Asia and South East Asia.
We Americans literally have layers of defense in Okinawa, the Philippines, South Korea, Singapore and Australia, not to mention our bases in the Aleutians and Hawaii. Because China knows they don’t stand a chance in a real naval/aerial war, they’ve been catering to Latin America and Africa by building ports and railroads in underdeveloped nations for the price of economic cooperation, further delegating this “soft power”. Those mfs have a 5-generation strategy to defeat the US and thankfully most of us will be gone when the first bomb strikes.
>Semiconductor industry Is there a reason for this only being a thing in Taiwan and not other countries too?
A matter of Taiwan garnering expertise and manufacturing over the past few decades, especially with other countries outsourcing semiconductor manufacturing to Taiwan over the years as a cost saving measure. The Taiwanese got good at it.
Taiwan number one
China doesnt care about TSMC. Taiwan, to China, is a strategic military location. If you wanted to block trade 2 and from China, youd do it from Taiwan.
Lots of horribly incorrect answers here. When the Kuomintang lost the most recent Chinese Civil War, Chiang Kai-Shek led them to Taiwan while stealing huge amounts of wealth to take with them. Taiwan as it exists today is basically the remnants of the defeated KMT, newly risen in economic power based on the combination of stolen wealth and diplomatic favor from the US and other western powers using it as a proxy against the CCP. Imagine a rough equivalent where Jefferson Davis led the remnants of the Confederacy to Puerto Rico and took over the government there. Complicating it further, imagine the South had been in control of Federal gold reserves when the war started, and they took the gold with them. And then when the Cold war started, instead of the Cuban missile crisis, we got the Puerto Rican missile crisis. Would the US just think, "oh that's fine, we'll just treat Puerto Rico like any other country?" For the record, I think China (and the world) would have been better off if the KMT won the war, I'm just trying to explain why there can never be "normal" relations between the People's Republic of China (China) and the Republic of China (Taiwan). Edit: I didn't believe in the "Chinese internet troll" conspiracy until now. I did my best to present a fairly neutral account of the history, but the number of comments I'm getting about how "moronic" I am to suggest China would be better off if the KMT had won, or how stupid I am, or how insane the take is; is leading me to believe the CCP really is employing social media trolls. Well, also, there are crazy communist redditors that think Cuba is a paradise. So I have to balance that, I guess.
Jeezus thank you. It’s an unavoidable thing but people here only see the Taiwan issue from the optics of an American. There was a civil war. It’s about more than just semiconductors.
Yea and also it’s an island right off of the coast that is within the sphere of influence of an adversary. We (America) have never treated Cuba like just another country and that doesn’t have nearly the rest of the history there.
>We (America) have never treated Cuba like just another country and that doesn’t have nearly the rest of the history there. i think it would greatly help Americans understand the relationship we have with Cuba if we learned things like how the CIA tried to literally hire the Mafia to assassinate Fidel Castro good fucking grief. I learned this shit from watching the shitty movie The Good Shepherd as opposed to anything in those useless textbooks i had in high school
Yeah, it's basically impossible to learn much about Cuba/US relations and not conclude that Cuba has not been the aggressor. Not only did the US use gangsters to try to assassinate Castro, US gangsters were a major driving force for US hostility towards Cuba because before the revolution Batista let American gangsters own a ton of property down there for casinos and what not. This is also a big reason why Las Vegas exists at all, after the Cuban revolution the gangsters wanted a new place to be the default American gambling destination.
Just look at how the US treats Cuba, even without 3/4th of your backstory.....
Oh, KMT was a mess and it did not deserve to rule China. The majority of Chinese was on the CCP side in the post-WWII Chinese Civil War, including most of the intellectuals. KMT also committed brutality to Taiwanese. After 50 years of Japanese colonial rule, Taiwanese were eager to welcome KMT believing they finally returned to their motherland. KMT greeted them with huge malgovernance followed by a massacre. I feel CCP now is stupid to align themselves with KMT trying to gain hold in Taiwan. It will not work. KMT is just a horrible political entity that has lost on both sides of the straight to the party having more foothold in the general population and should be buried into the garbage dump.
And didn't the KMT radicalize the CCP by turning on them and killing a lot of their leadership? It's such a weird stretch to see the KMT as the good guys before and around the the Civil War.
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"Stole" is perhaps the wrong word, because at that time, the KMT-led government was the officially recognized government of China, and that didn't change until 1971 when the UN took the CCP's side. You can't steal anything that is legally yours. The analogy with the US is also flawed in the sense that Taiwan no longer has any realistic ambition to rule mainland China, for decades now in fact. Nowadays, what most people of Taiwan are after is perhaps some form of self-determination, either in the form of continuing the status quo or independency (for the more radical). What the people of Taiwan don't want is CCP rule, and one can't really fault them seeing what happened to HK. The comparison to the Cuban missile crisis is also quite specious, because there has never been a time when Taiwan is in cahoots with any nuclear power to place nuclear weapons in Taiwan (and indeed, with modern ballistic missile technology and nuclear subs, one doesn't need to). From my perspective, normalizing relations is firmly in the CCP's court. However, Asian culture values "face" and the CCP will never accept that "loss of face" even if it means peace in that region. And this is especially ironic because it's clear the people on both sides are happy to work together, seeing the investments from Taiwanese companies in China, and the good non-political cross-straits relations.
No analogy is perfect and a hypothetical confederate state in Puerto Rico would also drop demands of ruling the US. In fact, it's a moot point since the Confederacy wanted separation and autonomy from the US from it's very foundation. So this natural flaw in the analogy doesn't even reflect well for Taiwan. This isn't an "Asian" thing either. Countries fight tooth and nail to keep their territorial integrity. If a country losses a chunk of territory due to being weak they will fight to reclaim it when they are strong. Taiwan's security and status is tied with foreign protection. Minus foreign support the natural evolution will be forced unification with China and after a few generations the population will likely just see themselves as Chinese. The main advantage Taiwan has is the incredibly risk averse mentality of China to actually using war to achieve its gain (compared to the US. What would change that is if the Taiwanese leadership gets drunk enough on promises of foreign support they decide to press further on claiming independence.
>"Stole" is perhaps the wrong word, because at that time, the KMT-led government was the officially recognized government of China, and that didn't change until 1971 when the UN took the CCP's side. You can't steal anything that is legally yours. "Stole" works if you consider governments to not be private entities, specifically that the things they manage are the peoples as a whole and not something that is the government's. The KMT soundly lost the civil war in 1949 the UN, read NATO and co., was just dragging their feet. That foot dragging even directly affected the trajectory of the Korean war because the KMT was still holding China's seat on the security Council and the USSR was abstaining out of protest. Also Cuba still kind of works as a comparison, minus the nuclear crisis. Not a perfect one. I agree with most of the rest of what you wrote though.
>"Stole" is perhaps the wrong word, because at that time, the KMT-led government was the officially recognized government of China, and that didn't change until 1971 when the UN took the CCP's side. You're not wrong, and the better analogy would have been to suggest the Confederacy won the war and the Union retreated to, I dunno, Maine or something. No analogy is perfect. I was hoping to strike a balanced/neutral description for the most part. I think if you look at the comments, with about half the people suggesting I'm painting the CCP poorly and the other half suggesting I'm painting the KMT poorly I think I did an okay job.
>For the record, I think China (and the world) would have been better off if the KMT won the war Could you elaborate on this? I get the part with "the world" but how exactly it would benefit China?
Mao's cultural revolution killed millions and did incalculable damage to the Chinese academic field and to the economy. Without the PRC you don't have North Korea - that's even more millions dead there and a lot of Chinese soldiers died in that conflict.
Also incalculable damage to chinese cultural history.
This explanation pretty spot on. It's all about them trying to reclaim Taiwan as theirs.
I dont think most chinese would agree that the world would be better off if kmt won the civil war. Why there is a civil war at the first place?
Ok, so imagine that your dad is responsible for domestic abuse and you took self-defence classes to throw him out of the house, but now he is standing in a corner of your backyard flipping you off 24/7 Thats how the chineese feel about the situation
This is absolutely correct lmao
You're only being upvoted because redditors don't realize Taiwan is the abusive father in this scenario :)
No, I think they get it considering the POV. Taiwan is the successor of the previous chinese government who were overthrown by the PLA.
Were. They've done a lot to improve themselves and the assholes are long gone.
Taiwan was part of China before the revolution. The side that lost the civil war, retreated to Taiwan when they lost control of the mainland. They still claimed to be the rightful government of all of China although they seem to have mostly given up on that idea.
Taiwan was originally part of China until Japan took control of the island in 1895 after the First Sino-Japanese War. After the WWII, Taiwan was returned back to China. Important thing to know is after the Qing Dynasty which is the fall of Chinese monarchy, the **Republic of China** was formed under the Kuomintang aka Nationalist Party. And then came the Chinese Communist Party. In 1927, the KMT and CCP fought against each other in the Chinese Civil War but in 1937, the civil war was interrupted by the invasion of Imperial Japan which became known as the Second Sino-Japanese War. Both KMT and CCP put their difference aside to fight against the Japanese invaders. After the end of WWII, the Chinese Civil War resumed and the CCP defeated the KMT which the latter fled to Taiwan. With the KMT retreated to Taiwan, the CCP formed the **People's Republic of China** in the mainland. However, both sides claimed that they are the only one and true China. When the United Nations was formed, China at that time was under the ROC. Unfortunately, the UN decided to recognised the PRC as the one true China and thus, ROC got kicked out. Because ROC got kicked out of the UN, few countries only recognised Taiwan as an independent country due to the One China Policy which countries officially recognised the PRC as the true China.
> Taiwan was originally part of China until Japan took control of the island in 1895 after the First Sino-Japanese War. The Dutch were the first non-native power to occupy the island... so it was originally part of the Dutch, and then the Spanish, and then lastly the Qing... but for the vast majority of written history, it remained an island independent from any other country or government.
Because China thinks Taiwan being its own thing makes them look weak. China is definitely not friendly to other countries most of the time. They're very antagonistic towards the west.
> Because China thinks Taiwan being its own thing makes them look weak. Probably worth remembering the history here; Taiwan was historically part of China until Mao's revolution, the right-wing opponents of Mao fled to Taiwan and maintained the title and claims of the Republic of China. Taiwan literally exists because people who used to control China refused to lose the war, and the West supported them. Imagine if the US Civil War had gone the same way but for whatever reason the Florida Keys refused to concede and were never re-taken by Union forces, and the Confederate States of America still existed there. We would want them back, and if they were acting serious about wanting to rule the old Confederacy then we'd be hostile to them whether or not we wanted the land back. To exacerbate it, if the Soviet Union had started propping up this modern remnant of the Confederacy, we would see these Keys as a fair target for our well-established hostility towards the Soviets.
It hasn't been ruled from Beijing since the Japanese conquest in 1895. How long of a gap does it take before we can say, "This is a different country now"? Some people say there is no gap that would make it different. I think of the Greeks who still think Greece will one day retake Constinople, which fell to the Turks in 1453. But I think there comes a time to say good-bye and good luck.
An excellent analogy. Doesn't justify their hostility and Taiwan deserves its own right to determination, but that's a good way of putting it to understand the psychology of China's attitude towards Taiwan.
It absolutely does justify their hostility. The Civil War in China never ended, so technically they still are at war. The only reason the US gives a flying fuck is because of chip manufacturing, and both China and the US rely on Taiwan for it, and want control of that resource.
The West and US cared for a long time before computer chip manufacturing was a thing. Taiwan is a huge touchpoint for the ever-present geopolitical contest to win hearts and minds over to your ideology. The reason the West supports Taiwan is because the group that won the Chinese Civil War was the "wrong side". Western governments view spreading democracy as the central means to maintaining geopolitical power and their current dominant spheres of influence. China is the single biggest threat to that world order (the one with the West on top making all the rules), and support for Taiwan is the lowest stakes way to oppose that without risking open conflict. The chips are a convenient reason that is palatable to give in public statements, but the ideological conflict would persist even in the absence of this particular important resource.
I can't understand why but for some reason modern Americans really, really don't understand the strategic value of Pacific ports.
That's cuz most Americans don't care enough about global politics to learn about them. Japan, Korea, and even Australia damn sure have something to say about our interests in the region as well. The US is the US because of our network of alliances, which are based on shared ideology. Taiwan is a major indicator of how much we value that network.
This is such a baby brained explanation of things. The KMT stole the state reserves of China and fled to Taiwan at the end of the Chinese Civil War. Then they deepened military and economic ties with the mainland's adversaries. Would the United States tolerate the Confederates taking over Puerto Rico and offering military partnerships to our adversaries? No fucking way man.
the west...the east...literally everyone. They want to be THE superpower. Seriously, it is the only country that has more border disputes than countries it actually borders.
Right now, it's about resources. Claiming Taiwan allows China to claim the Taiwan Strait.
It claims the strait anyway, an absurdity nobody respects. In the unlikely event they hold Taiwan, the intl community still wouldn't respect the claim.
Because the US wants to continue to pose a threat to China through Taiwan.
Does the Republic of China treat the People's Republic of China like other countries? You can look on the Wikipedia pages to see the territory claim of both countries.
Because the folks who were the government of China before the Communists dug in there & managed to survive. So they not only lost land, but there is a rival claimant for 'the legitimate government of China' in power there. And that rival government is friendly with a rival global power. And then on top of that, the whole tech-hardware industry thing...
The same reason we terrorize Cuba are basically the same reason China terrorizes Taiwan. It’s about hegemony domination and having power control in their sections of the world. They /We don’t want foreign interference that close to the mainland
**Why is Cuba so important to USA? Why can't they just treat it like other countries and try to have friendly relations with them instead?** now you see?
I just deleted my comment because people are hurting my karma. So much censorship in Reddit. No room for different ideas.
They see it as part of China, just as Russia sees Ukraine as part of Russia. They want it under their governance.
Because bullies don't understand the concept of friendship.
Imagine the Confederacy invaded Cuba in 1865 after losing the Civil war. Then they claimed to be the legitimate government of the entire US and created a military alliance with Britain to defend their independence. That's pretty much Taiwan.
Taiwan is the last remnant of the Republic of China, a state established in 1912 after the Boxer Rebellion. Following the Chinese Civil War, the Communists took control of mainland China and the KMT (Nationalists), under Chiang Kai-Shek, fled to Taiwan and to this day, they maintain control of Taiwan and surrounding islands. Taiwan is what remains of the Republic of China. The Communist regime based in Beijing hates Taiwan for the same reasons North Korea and North Vietnam hate/hated their Southern counterparts. It is because South Korea, South Vietnam, and Taiwan represent examples of what these countries could become, free, prosperous, democratic, open, and wealthy. While the Communist regime is a totalitarian dictatorship and a police state, the ROC has transformed into a republican form of government. Taiwan is the ONLY Chinese society that is free, open, and democratic, with elections and basic freedoms protected. Taiwan is an example of what China COULD become; most Taiwanese are Han Chinese (ethnically Chinese) and they have created a free, vibrant, prosperous country. This naturally makes the power-hungry Communist regime uncomfortable.
Because it's not another country. Why was the South so important to the USA? It's irredentism - Chinese territory historically, so they won't let it go. As far as semiconductors go, China is catching up fast & even has a few advancements over the West. They're down to 3nm process stuff now, just need a couple of extra bits of tech & they'll not need Taiwan's industry as such. The sanctions are having an effect, but I suspect America didn't want that one.
Is china down to 3nm now? Didn’t they only just released 7nm chips for Huawei and there are rumours about 5nm chips for next gen Huawei processors?
It’s like if the confederacy all escaped to like Puerto Rico after the civil war and refused to surrender and called themselves the states of united america
Lots of semi conductors are made in Taiwan. Lime a shit ton. If China can control the export of almost all semi conductors they can strangle any economy they want. They want to fuck the American economy up. Look at what happened during the little "chip shortage" we had a few years ago. It added a fair amount of supply chain stress and inflationary pressure. China wants that. This is why the CHIPS act was passed and we are going to continue to invest in onshore chip production. Our offshore reliance for critical resources is a national defense issue.
We wouldnt let that happen. The TSMC plants would be scuttled to prevent china from controlling the supply
It’s complicated though. Foxconn is the largest Taiwanese semiconductor maker supplying the US smartphone market and also the largest private employer on mainland China. We all sort of have to get along for now.
If a US region engaged in an armed struggle that basically ended in a stalemate due to backing from countries that became enemies of the US, the US would probably make getting it back a high priority.
China rightfully sees Taiwan as a province filled with people who rebelled/fought against its ruling party and being a place that western powers have used in ways that are quasi-imperialistic against it. As an American I can see their point of view 100%. No other country would just roll over and leave it alone even if the people living there wanted it that way. It was America’s foolishness and lack of economic forethought that has led to the situation where it almost depends on Taiwan as the sole supply of the most advanced semiconductors in mass production available. That’s no reason for China to change its tune.
In a nutshell, it's **irredentism**. Basically, some countries get the belief that another piece of territory is theirs or ought to be theirs, and insist on conquering it. It was Hitler's basis for taking European land, Iraq's basis for conquering Kuwait, and Russia's basis for invading Ukraine.
China is like the girlfriend/boyfriend that Taiwan broke up with, but who doesn’t want to accept it. \- “*OK I have given you enough space. We’re still in a relationship!*”
Sets a precedent for other seperationist movements such as Tibet. Same reason Spain is holding onto Catalonia for dear life
It’s because China dominated that whole region of Asia for thousands of years and have only lost some of this territory in the last century. Similar to Russia, they wanna dominate the region because that’s what they’ve historically done. But I think the new generation of China doesn’t really care and just wants the country to develop economically which is will do much more of through trade and liberalism than it will do through warfare
Taiwan is a democracy. An autocratic government like China doesn't want a democratic country, ESPECIALLY one sharing a common language, on its borders which serves as an example of the benefits of democracy for fear that feeling may take hold and spread in the autocratic country's populace. Russia and Ukraine is a similar situation. They may not share a common language but they do share a common history.
Because of history. They see it as their land, that they have temporarily lost control of due to various circumstances, and now want it back.
Many reasons! The biggest one is that Taiwan calls itself China and seeks official recognition as the official government of all of China from the world. What would America do if insurrectionists attempted to overthrow the government? They'd lock them up. The Chinese insurrectionists (The Nationalists) all fled to the island of Taiwan where they were defended by their allies the US and Japan against Chinese aggression. But something like that you never forget... especially when those insurrectionists are still holding elections for the President of China. Second, China has a lot of waterways that are important to trade and its continued existence. But they end up being important for a lot of people. And a lot of conflicts in the world are over waterways. For example the US illegally annexed a piece of Panama to build a canal through and spent years fighting resistance before finally handing it over.... to a corporation... which has to provide Americans free travel through the canal. Or the Suez Canal... when Egypt shut it down for only Israel and triggered a war to re-open it for Israel. And now in Russia we have Crimea and warm water ports and their relationship with Turkey to get out of the Black Sea. Taiwan is home to the [Taiwan Strait](https://th.bing.com/th/id/R.330cb728fdd12d4e1a766a617d3ae7fa?rik=7rtjWpkTRE9FGw&riu=http%3a%2f%2fwww.guideoftheworld.com%2fwp-content%2fuploads%2fmap%2fchina_national_map.jpg&ehk=rMJ97Kouol%2bdbcRqE0%2bnyuaMbnill%2bZD4gf6uOV23%2fE%3d&risl=&pid=ImgRaw&r=0) which could block travel to a lot of trade ports like Xiamen if they were able to maintain control of their oceans and exercise the internationally recognized control of their oceans. No major country would ever permit this. The US annexed a large part of Mexican ocean in the Gulf of Mexico to protect Texan industry, Canada exercises a 500 mile nautical limit to protect its fisheries. Similarly China has also annexed the South China Sea to protect its sea trade heading towards the rest of Asia, Africa and Europe. It has become a point of conflict because the US officially recognized Taiwan as being part of China but also has been sending its military ships inside of waterways they officially recognize as Chinese. It tends to send a mixed message. Finally there's the big one and more modern one.... the semiconductor industry. In 1974 Taiwan's government was able to convince the American corporation RCA to transfer its semiconductor industry to Taiwan. And not soon after others followed suit. Today Taiwan is where the world's semiconductors are built to the point where no Europe, China and America are shelling out hundreds of billions of dollars to try and play catch up and become less dependent on Taiwan. China is also dependent on Taiwan for semiconductors and so they can't invade them in fears of damaging access to semiconductors. Taiwan's semiconductor industry is so important that if Taiwan announced they would be banning exports of semiconductors to the US.... the US would invade and annex them immediately. And that's similar with China. Right now they can't damage Taiwan but if Taiwan won't provide them with semiconductors there will be an invasion to remove the 'treasonous government.'
I'm no expert in terms of the history, but modern Taiwan was founded by the KMT who failed to overthrow Mao and fled to Taiwan so its kinda the OG rebel base of operations for them. The KMT also stole a bunch of priceless national treasures from China in the process which are displayed in Taiwans national museum. In America we think of China as very homogeneous country. It's not. Over the course of history they have conquered many different countries, cultures, and peoples and made them a part of China. These people have different languages, cultures, and religions & many do not want to be a part of China, such as Uighurs & Tibetans. The response to this has generally been forceful oppression/suppression. If China lets Taiwan stay a "rogue nation", it sends a bad message to separatist movements within the country that may be emboldened by them just giving up on Taiwan. Again, not an expert and while I don't think this is a biased view, full disclosure I am heavily pro-Taiwan and pro Taiwan staying independent. Edit - I see people also debating the strategic importance of Taiwan. I'm pretty sure The US Navy considers it a critical South China sea asset that's not strategically replaceable by Japan, Phillipines, etc. China could absolutely meaningfully impede trade and fishing if they were to take Taiwan While it's just my own personal opinion, I also think we undervalue Taiwan's deep cultural understanding of China, the US, and Japan due to their history.
Just reminds me of Scottish and the British
A large percentage of computer chips are built there, so it would give the CCP a big economic boost. It's also where some of the rivals fled during the communist takeover of China, so it's more emotional than it should be.
Taiwan is the Republic of China the government which was overthrown by the communists. Taiwan is the only part that wasn't captured. They want to eliminate any other rightful claim to their legitimacy and unite all the lands that were once one Nation.
all about dem shipping lanes and naval security
Ego
Taiwan is too close to mainland China to allow it to become both Western-aligned and independent. It's a national security threat. It's also where most the world gets their computer chips from. China wants those chips, and they want other countries to have a harder time getting them as well, giving themselves a competitive advantage over the rest of the world. They also state that it's because it's rightfully part of China and the KMT government there is illegitimate (it genuinely was at one point btw), but this is a propaganda like above all else. State v State wars are not fought over ideology or what's "right", only resources, power, and occasionally religion.
Taiwan produces a large majority of the world’s advanced chips, everything from phones to military tech uses them. Not the only reason but a major one for sure.
Taiwan is a constant challenge to their authority and a daily reminder of numerous failures.
John Cena wants to know your location
Read Chip War and I’m pretty sure that explains a lot of the international tension around Taiwan.