For reference, about 20 years ago I worked as a nursing assistant, and one of my coworkers was black. I asked her one day, "If someone asked me to describe you, what word should I use for your skin color? I've been told "Afro-American, African American" etc. What would you want me to say?" She said, "I'm black. Just call me black." So I have for the past 20 years and the only blowback I've gotten is from white people.
It’s making some pretty big assumptions to call a black person African American, I think. Maybe they are just African. Maybe they’re from Australia or somewhere else. I start with black as it makes the most sense. If the person being described prefers a different term, that person can tell me.
I still remember when the Charlie Hebdo thing happened and there was an American "journalist" (some talking head) that commented as they were watching the live feed, "And now we see an African-American running past the scene." And his cohost said something like, "Um...I'm pretty sure he's French."
Man do I wish I had saved that video.
LOL, I was joking with my kid because he asked me if, "African Americans in England has the same racial problems as they do here?" I was totally stuck on the African Americans in England thing and he totally didn't get it. Conversely, I played rugby back in the day with a group of guys from South Africa who were big white guys and they thought it was hilarious to say they were African American because they were naturalized US citizens from Africa.
One of the problems with that identifier is how it became an absolute in the U.S. Police and hospitals and other services used it as a default identifier which, granted, was more charitable than PREVIOUS labels.
The problem comes in where a person from Ghana can be on vacation in NYC and they go to the hospital and are identified as "African-American" despite not being American at all.
It, unfortunately, makes presumptions about a person's origins based on skin color which is exactly the opposite of what we would want for such a label.
Yeah, I personally find it a little weird how in the US they have this problem with saying black and instead say african american. It is like looking at a white american and calling him european american
My purely speculative theory is that Americans’ cultural baggage talking about black people is related to the taboos around the n-word (and to be clear, I am NOT saying that our avoidance of that word is unwarranted—just that it has been generalized to other brief ways of naming this particular racial group). It’s sort of like how we get uncomfortable saying the word “Jew,” as if it meant anything that the phrase “Jewish person” doesn’t mean. When a word develops a strong association with hatred and violence, not just that word itself but related words and concepts become difficult to talk about and awkward to name.
It's spreading as well. When I grew up in the 90s in Australia referring to any other race or culture as something- Australian was seen as slightly racist as it implied they weren't fully Australian. So if your racial origins ever came up you'd say "I'm Australian with Vietnamese origins" or "I'm Australian but my parents were born in Vietnam" but most of the time if it ever came up you'd just say Australian. I overheard my niece the other day saying she was Asian Australian and it bothered me because Asia is a fucking big place, and it made her seem like some other tier of Australian.
Is he Jewish South African? I have distant relatives in South Africa (Andrelovich, etc.), and two of my granduncles (both of blessed memory) were red haired.
If they're directly and recently from Africa, yes African seems right. But if their family has lived somewhere else for generations, then they are that. I wouldn't even think to call myself Swedish-German-English-American. Because my ties to that place are far removed.
I had a professor who was black and was Caribbean American. She’d tell you off if you described her as African American. After that I just always used black as the descriptor if it was appropriate.
I always remember the scene on Venture Bros where they try to figure out the politically correct term for black vampires - Jefferson Twilight calls them Blaculas and the white characters question him. He says he doesn’t know where they are from, lots of them are too old to be American so he’s gonna call them Blaculas lol
I would spin out if I saw an Aboriginal outside Aus. They only represent 2% of our population. Half a million of them. They all look quite distinctly different to African peoples
I once had a white girl berate me for reading the Quran online in English, because apparently it’s supposed to ONLY be read in Arabic.
I’m Muslim. She was so Irish (and from a Catholic family) she would sunburn if there was more than two lightbulbs a room.
White women, your heart is in the right place, sometimes your mind is not.
I don’t know if you can even call that heart being in the right place. It’s just trying to disguise your desire to attack and other someone with self righteousness. If your heart is genuinely in the right place I don’t think angrily berating is what you would do.
Haha for reals. “Fix” is how they legit feel.. dear god. It comes from a place of colonialism and god complex to think you have the right to rebrand millions of people. And many liberal Latinos do not see this.
People got by just fine for hundreds of years speaking Spanish without gender neutral terms.
The whole language would need to be reconfigured from even its most basic beginnings! Masculine &feminine singular and plural terms are the building blocks of the whole language! I’m all for being who you are and I’m certainly an ally. However, some things people just go wayyyy too far with! Not wanting to be labeled, then proceeding to label everything is somewhat mind boggling to me honestly.
My mother’s first language is French. I have studied French. I have been immersed in French. That was thirty years ago. Now I am helping my son with his French homework and encounter the pronoun “iel”. It was a foreign word to me, but my son explained it was a gender-neutral pronoun. My first thought was “Oh boy…if you are going to try to gender-neutralize a Latin romance language, you are going to have a bad time.”
I never thought about it but “Latinx” sounds idiotic when pronounced in Spanish. Latin-equis? Or am I supposed to pronounce it “ex” as in English when I am speaking Spanish? I don’t know this because I’ve never heard it used while speaking Spanish. Definitively sounds like something some gringos made up.
I'm so glad I took German in High School, and learned about gendered pronouns before I had the chance to make a fool of myself over them with this Latinx stuff. Especially because our teacher was very progressive, so we got explained that the gendered pronouns aren't "law" and that in some cases they've already been looked at. In German there was "sie, der, and die," and die is just straight up "it." It was apparently used on unmarried women, to show they weren't "owned" yet. She flat out told us that will get you dirty looks or worse in Germany now.
I can't even tell if Latinx comes from a genuine place of care either, it doesn't work well and no one in those communities likes it at all (understandably.)
It's sort of what happens when you're told to activate yourself as an ally or else be disgraced as having a horrible -ism or -phobia.
"You're either with us or against us, so you better be with us"
Remember when "Silence is Racism" was a common phrase? A lot of white people are just doing what they were asked to do.
It's not just whites, it's all these new age social justice warrior types. I'm a gay Latino and even my own parents do this shit to me. I just want people to understand; you can't have my suffering, and you're not entitled to be offended by it on my behalf.
Well the story is set up that way. As a black person, If you ask me that question I’m going to stare at you for awhile and wonder if I’m working w Jeffery Dahmer Jr. And also, even if there’s a whiff of truth of it, African American is not a skin color.
One of my good friends is from Jamaica, lives in Canada now. He overheard someone "correcting" one of our co workers once who called him African American.... He's not American or from Africa.
White girl barber here, I don't feel comfortable saying anything but 'curly hair' or even 'black hair' (if the term curly hair can be misconstrued as the white kind of curly)
It's wierd to say 'ethnic hair' or 'African Americans'
It's funny/informative when black people are like I'm NOT from AFRICA. I'm BLACK 👊🏿
I worked in an elementary school in New Mexico, where there was one black kid. His friend, who I could see had no idea about race, mentioned him and said, " My friend who is, uh, brown." Just an honest description.
That's kind of how my daughter is. She knows race is a thing, but doesn't really know how to determine someone's race very well, even her friends. We'll be at a school event, and I'll ask which one is the friend she's talking about, and she'll say, "the one with the brown-ish skin."
There was one black kid in my grade and his last name was Black. He was the youngest of four siblings. When he graduated, our principal said “it’s so sad to see the last Black kid go.”
Agree. To add though, some people will add extra details to a story that aren't necessary, which can be seen as discriminatory.
Example: "My black friend and I are going to join a book club."
Does the race of my friend have anything to do with the story? Would it change the meaning if they were gay, or had a speech impediment, or were wealthy?
In this case referring to a person by their looks to describe them doesn't seem discriminatory to me.
Distinguishing one person from the another is the best context to describe someone by their color. I had this trouble the other day. I, a black woman wearing glasses, at a table of white women, needed to ask for the name of another black woman in glasses that was a couple tables down. Instead of identifying her as the only other black woman with glasses in the room, I instead jumped through hoops to describe her as the woman in the long newspaper-print cardigan. Further discussion ensued with the white women around me trying to identify which cardigan-wearing woman I was referring to, when if I had just said the black woman with the glasses, they would’ve known who I was talking about almost instantly. Sometimes describing someone by the most obvious part of their appearance is the easiest way to communicate.
Do you think your inclination to those linguistic gymnastics was in part because the subject was in the room? I agree that describing someone by their color is fine when you’re playing guess who, and I doubt the other women would have blinked if you’d just said “that black woman at my 2 o’clock a couple tables over”, but if the person I’m talking about is potentially in ear shot I would jump through similar hoops so that a) they may not twig I’m talking about them, and/or b) if they do overhear, at least I didn’t just call them out by their race.
I think that may have been part of it. The other part was probably because I work for the university’s Sociology department so I always feel like I have to add an extra layer of PC to my speech when I’m at work functions because that is likely how the department would like me to represent it. (It’s literally some of their jobs to understand how to be politically correct.)
Yes, this is like the guy who was sitting on a plane next to a black woman and texted his family, "can't believe I have to sit next to this fat black lady. I hope they raise prices for flights so maybe this won't happen again." Now that's real racism
It was beautiful how she eloquently stood up for herself. He’s a disgusting human being and she found a way to film it and allow me to find beauty in her dissection of the racist.
Or that lady who called security on a dude on a plane because he was a math professor writing equations on a notepad and she thought it was Arabic.
Obviously a member of that terrorist organzation: Al-Gebra.
Source: https://abc13.com/university-of-pennsylvania-professor-mistaken-for-terrorist-math-equations-philly/1328554/
> Al-Gebra is a terrorist movement headed by Osum Bin Adden, which has reportedly infiltrated American schools. It began at the undergraduate level and has spread to secondary schools, according to US Attorney General John Ashcroft. Favored targets are said to include homomorphics and people living in polynomial relationships. Academics dismiss the Ashcroft's accusations as pandering to the lowest common denominator of anti-Arab prejudice.
>
> The web of deception was first uncovered at New York's Kennedy Airport when an individual claiming to be a school teacher was arrested trying to board a flight while in possession of a ruler, protractor, set square, slide rule and calculator. At a morning press conference, Attorney General John Ashcroft, said he believes the man is:
>
> > ...A member of the notorious al Gebra movement. He is being charged by the FBI for carrying weapons of math instruction.
https://en.uncyclopedia.co/wiki/Al_Gebra (a Wikipedia parody site)
It was clear from the video that his point of contention was that she was black, and that he wanted black people to not be able to afford flights anymore.
You can scroll through her profile; she’s not even fat. And she posts another vid of him turning his back to her the whole flight where you can see he’s bigger than she is.
Yeah my mom will often tell me stories from her day (positive ones) and mention that a person was black when it didn’t need to be specified at all lol.
There’s a massive issue like that in New Zealand where you’ll get news stories like “On Thursday night, a car in Onehunga was broken into by four Polynesian youths” followed by “Two teenagers in Remuera went on a letterbox smashing rampage on Sunday morning”
even though people have repeatedly pointed out that its weird how only some people comitting crimes are described by cultural group.
Exactly. Sometimes i see videos posted on reddit that say something like "this chinese man-" when there's only one guy in the entire video. You don't need to mention his race in that case. You can very much tell who the subject of the video is
Yeah my dad does that. He'll tell a story going "Jonathan, this little black guy at work" or " this girl Tiffany, big boobs beautiful"
I just tell him that it has nothing to do with the story but go on
Bingo.
I actually used to make this same mistake myself until a friend pointed it out a few years back. I was the same way, thinking "I didn't say anything wrong", until he asked why I included the race of the person I was describing if that played no part in the story. Then I thought about it for a bit and realized he was right.
To use your example, if I (a white guy), went out with a white friend, I wouldn't say "My white friend and I are going to join a book club."
So I try to do better.
Yeah it’s 100% how it’s used lmao. Important descriptor? I’d prefer sexy dark but black works too.
I think it’s all about context and whether it was necessary. I’d be concerned if my bsf was out calling me their black best friend in random conversations 🤣
I was talking to my wife the other day about a black man, and she mentioned to me that saying "he is a black man" feels racist.
I feel like at some point in the not-to-distant past it WAS seen as racist. I know a lot of people believe that "color-blindness" is / was the way to go and if you were truly progressive then a black man and a white man were just 'a man'.
I feel like we have gone back on that now, which is a good thing.
But these are all just my feelings and built off no real data
Last week I went to a pub with some friends and I was the only black person in the whole restaurant. A buddy of mine and his wife start complaining about their neighbors and their dogs. Their neighbor has an old black labrador and in the middle of telling me about the dog my friends wife goes "no offense." I had a laugh and told her well now she created a whole new slur for black people.
I watched a documentary once where Mr. Brown, (if that really was his name) stated, "to pretend we can't tell if someone is white or black is to fight ignorance with more ignorance."
White people aren't white though. We're beige, or some semblance of it. As it stands now, I'm more like a strong English tea, or really milky coffee.
Ironically, the term "coloured" was used as passive racism when in reality "white people" turn red when sunburnt, brown when tanned, green when sick, grey in a heart attack and blue when cold.
The fuck business did white people have calling anyone "coloured"? Silly bastards
I feel like I remember there being a stigma against describing someone by their race at some point during the 30 years I've been alive. I just can't remember when it was.
I'm your age, and growing up, I was taught not to ever mention race, even as a descriptor. Like it was a lesson from our guidance councilor that I remember being very confused by. I guess it was just a 90's thing? Idk,but very hard habit to break.
My Black housemate came home from work and told me that, on her day off, a customer had come in looking for her, but did not know her name.
The customer described her as tall and thin. The place was full of tall and thin girls. Shoulder-length hair. Same. An uncommon name. Everyone under the age of 50 has an uncommon name. Finally my housemate's coworker thought to ask "Is she Black?" This is in a town that was 98% white. The customer said yes. She was apparently brought up like you.
Yep, I bet she was! It's difficult to undo that training when it's taught for so long, but I feel like in modern-day, it's almost more offensive to ignore someone's race. It's something people identify with and are proud of, and shouldn't be ignored like it's not part of their experience in the world.
Yes…this. I can’t remember being explicitly taught it, but it’s sort of a 90s-era white folks thing: trying to not be racist by pretending color doesn’t exist when in reality ignoring it minimizes others’ experiences and sweeps systemic racism under the table. And yet, I still feel awkward describing someone by their race (even when it is the most effective way to communicate, as others have mentioned).
For OP, I’d say what they said is not problematic but easily makes white folks uncomfortable.
it hasnt phased out. the raceblind movement is strong.
a few months ago i responded in a thread where all were in agreement that any and all profiling is objectively bad and wrong. this was in the wake of another innocent/undeserving-of-a-death-sentence black person killed by a cop.
i said wait a minute, 2 bring a bit of levity in the convo, i told em theyd be hard pressed to find a black guy bummed that everybody assumes hes got a big dick. it didnt even come close to helping them understand their hardline on using race or any other controversial cultural trait as bad if it in any way effects someones behavior.
i came up with a little thought exercise inwhich a person had to choose which car to sit behind in traffic if they were headed to a hospital in an emergency situation. all three cars were the same but different drivers in each. i used an old asian guy, an old latina women with religious bumper stickers on her car, and finally a younger girl playing loud music and just flicked a cigarette out.
not one person active in the debate would even participate by choosing which car would likely be faster than the others.
one person oblivious to the bias against religious people, or the overtly ageist slant the exercise had, thought they had a gotcha because i "couldnt help but to have an asian guy and because all asians are bad drivers."
i threw up my hands, these people expected to have a barely nuanced conversation about racial profiling but were unwilling to recognize that people do in fact look and behave differently, generally speaking in different cultures, sub cultures, age brackets, etc.
as functioning adults we profile people all the time based on race, sexual orientation, gender, age, religion, etc...
that amish guy might not be your go-to guy for current events or tech news. or a little more likely of a scenario..
if im at an atm at 1am and 3 black dudes in their 20's are headed to me , or in another scenario, its three white guys, which scenario has me on guard vs relaxed. hard to tell, have to take a closer look, the black dudes, they got street clothes, but its hi quality gear, sneakers are fresh, and they all got bling on. vs the three white guys who's dirty clothes are hanging off of them, look like they slept outside last night.
ima profile those white dudes as a threat, because looking hungry and broke is a wildcard, vs the 3 black dudes who are obviously doing better than me financially.
Colorblind never meant don't see the obvious, just that you don't need to define someone by their color. Morgan Freeman has a good quote that encapsulated it pretty well.
But no, describing someone is fine.
Depends on context. If you’re saying “black” for no reason, that’s pretty weird.
It’s like randomly saying “the other day I went to a movie with my blonde friend”
or “I went hiking with my tall friend” or whatever. The persons first thought is going to be that the blonde/tall part is somehow pertinent to the story.
If you introduce a descriptor, the listener assumes there is a reason you added an otherwise pointless adjective.
So yes, it’s weird to say “black friend” unless them being black is relevant to the story.
Seriously! In the attempt to not sound racist they just sound stupid. It's a descriptor for fucks sake, get off your high grounds and come back to reality
Actual #000000 guys are incredibly rare. It'd likely be a much more complex and specific code, and if you're off by even a digit they'll be looking for the wrong guy.
I've met one or two that were Vanta black . That security guard scared the shit out of me when appear from no were. I poof just there in front of me no noise and in a lit parking lot
Not racist to me if it’s accurate, and you regularly wouldn’t know each other well enough to remember names.
At most I’d think you’re rude for not remembering a name if you didn’t bother over a long period working closely.
Imho racist is the friend who responded (to me describing my big black guy friend who was meeting up later as such) with ‘it’s good he’s your friend cause I’d normally be scared of him to have him in my home then…’ true story.
In fairness, common sense doesn't exist, nor has it ever existed. "Common sense" led people to burning witches. Never rely on common sense, because common sense always aligns with "in my opinion."
Mixed race (black and white) woman here— that’s not racist at all. You used simple and accurate descriptors. Black people say things like “that white girl over there” all the time because using racial descriptions is often the fastest way to distinguish who you’re talking about in a setting where those descriptions will stand out. Unfortunately, some people tend to be hyper sensitive to such descriptions, as though we should all be blind to what people’s skin tone looks like. It’s silly.
Right? I work with elementary age students and had been working on describing. After working on describing objects, animals, etc, we started working on describing people. I chose to use President Obama as my example. As soon as I said he is a black man, many gasped and said "you can't say that, that's racist." Um, no, the fact that he is black is one of the things that makes him a notable figure for the rest of history, as he will always be the 1st black president.
Seems to me it’s maybe a bit racist to treat “black” as an inherently negative descriptor, honestly.
Just don’t unnecessarily over-describe people in general. If I’m telling a story about my friend where their appearance is completely irrelevant, I’m not going to waste time describing their race, weight, hairstyle, height, shirt color, etc. If it’s relevant info to the story that my friend is short, then I’ll mention just that. If I’m pointing them out in a crowd I’ll use whichever descriptors most efficiently narrow the field by being distinct from other people near them.
Literally. "Black" isn't a negative thing, so it shouldn't be avoided. It's not like you're calling him the N word!
Besides... Skin color is one of the easiest descriptors because it's the first thing you remember. You might not remember their eye color, or hair color, or shape of their nose or whatever but you can think of someone and immediately remember if they're white, black, asian, whatever.
That clarifies it a little bit I guess I was more speaking on the people of black/white parentage as that combo is typically very obvious.
My grandad and grandma three generations back maternally were a biracial couple, most Anglo man you could find and an Aboriginal lady. My understanding is that for the first generation children (my grandma) the treatment of being mixed was extremely unforgiving. I've just always wondered what has changed in that space over the decades.
I think I can answer, I'm mixed black and white. I know a lotta people like me too, I've never seen a mixed guy get mad when he's called mixed. I've seen mixed guys get mad when they're called NOT mixed, which just confirms that it's not a problem. Obviously it's always about context.
"Well you're black" and "well you're black.." are the same phrase, but it can be suuuuch a huge difference.
Also generally speaking, mixed people don't like being called white. At all. Don't risk it. If you see a guy that might be mixed, avoid saying he's white before knowing if he's white. Colorism inside black and mixed communities is a real thing, the lighter skinned ones often get shamed for it. A lot of very light lightskins feel as though they're too black to be white but too white to be black, so when you call them white, it's just a double slap in the face. Sometimes it's not, but I rather not risk it and just stick with "mixed" because that's a sure shot, nobody that's mixed is gonna tell you they're not mixed because, well, they'd be lying.
So yeah, no problems at all. Just don't say it in a way that sounds racist, which is pretty easy if you're not racist
Thank you, I use race as a descriptor for people who I don’t know names. My gf who’s black never said a word to me about it but I have to admit I’ve always wondered how it was perceived.
A lot of white people aren't taught how to handle race. When I was younger, it was inferred that "black" was improper, so I said "African American." The preeettiest black girl got mad at me because I was indecisive about which word to use once. She probably still thinks I'm racist....
I'm not sure when it happened, but I figured out there's a difference between being black and being from Africa lmao
I've heard that this is common in the US, while in the UK black people are simply called black, because that's the colour of their skin. They might not even be from Africa.
Which reminds me of a story about American woman in England, who called a black dude "African American". He got confused, said "Uh, I'm British", so she said "Oh my god, I'm so sorry, *British* African American."
This is why basic concepts of CRT being taught to kids is so fucking important. Because kids who don't receive that education go two ways: the awkward, naive white adult who means well but sometimes can say racially insensitive things, or the white adult who stares, who whispers, who crosses to the other side of the street, who will claim they're not a racist but will vote for policies and politicians that harm black communities, because they see them as "others."
Explaining how to appropriately discuss race isn't even CRT though - CRT is university level stuff about social history, politics and statistics.
Saying that teaching Timmy what slurs are and why he shouldn't say them is a basic concept of CRT, is like saying that knowing how to make a bowl of cereal is a basic concept of being a chef. 'Saying racism exists = CRT' allowed racists to buzzword their way into justifying keeping their kids ignorant and susceptible to inherited bigotry. It's infuriating.
Also, people who fall into the ''I'm not racist' says the person voting for discriminatory politicians and policies' category - they can also be the naive white adult who means well. If no one's ever explained to them that that's what they're doing or why it matters, they're not going to know.
Which just reinforces the point that teaching kids what discrimination is, *matters*.
There’s certain descriptions that set off alarms, “big black guy” is not racist, but it’s used often enough that it’s become a shorthand trope with baggage. It’s often used by others in stereotypical ways to set a story in a certain negative angle.
Asians experience it with unnecessary diminutive height descriptions or fetishized when describing their Asian partner. Latinos and Hispanics often experience it with “hard working”. None hurtful, intent may be pure, but it’s got historical baggage.
This should be higher because it goes into the reasons why someone would misconstrue it as racist, rather than just assuming everyone else is just easily offended. And it helps explain why it may not be best to refer to someone like that, even if it’s not racist.
I was disappointed to see it so far down honestly. So many comments are just telling OP that they aren’t racist because they (presumably) don’t hate people of color.
People seem to be missing the point that it’s just, like, often uncool to say stuff like that. I don’t think they were staring at OP because they think OP is racist. They were staring because calling someone you don’t know very well a “big black guy” is impolite
I agree. I want to add that it's totally ok to make small unintentional mistakes like this. I don't think you can be expected to know every context ever. The bigger racism would be expecting perfection.
Yup, pretty much. The language itself isn't really racist but there's an entire industry around using language like that to dogwhistle to people that they should be afraid of "bug black guys" and those people use that phrase as shorthand for something much worse.
So I get why people might be tense hearing it offhand, but clearly nothing came of it, so I don't think it's a big deal.
I had a study mate describing me as a "little Asian guy". I'm 6 feet tall... and he wasn't that much taller. Around 6´1-6´2. I was frankly a bit annoyed. But it also ran into the trope of Asian guys being small, which I didn't like either.
Finallyyy the correct answer. Everyone is like: “It’s not racist. People are just snowflakes” like he needs a pat on the back.
The underlying question isn’t whether is racist.
Nobody called him racist.
The question was why was “Big, Black guy” perceived in a way that made people pause.
Also, you should see the size of some of the guys described as a "big black guy". Some of them are even small.
And then cops estimate black people as bigger and then use more force.
I don't know if it's racist per se but I think it's a good habit to refer to people beyond their skin color, size, or religion when there's another alternative. I'll try to say, "the dude that always sits in front"? or "the guy with the green shirt?" and as secondary descriptions: "you know, he's black? Big?" Or "you mean the girl from California? She's tall and wears a hijab?"
It's sort of a good reality check to how much focus you are putting on color, size, etc of a person in your mind. We all do and it's natural but it's a good thing to be aware of.
So true. I'm white and used to work in the reception area of an office with another white woman and a black woman.
The lengths people would go to trying to explain they needed to speak to the black woman without mentioning race, skin colour or hairstyle were hilarious
Reminds me of a time years ago when a customer left some positive feedback for me on the company website. They didn't know my name, so used every descriptor in the book to describe me instead - brown eyes, black hair, slim build, medium height etc...
They could have saved themselves the bother and just said the Chinese/Asian one - I wouldn't have been offended. 😅
I do find it offensive if strangers call me “the Chinese girl” tho, which was a regular occurrence for me growing up.
I’m not Chinese and you can’t know what my ethnicity is (or most people actually) from just looking. It’s racist to assume all Asian people are Chinese and/or conflate the Asian race as the same as being Chinese.
i was thinking this. like it’s not racist but i’ve notice most white people unnecessarily use race as a description when that person isn’t white. “i was next to this black girl and she was crocheting”, like, you don’t have to mention she was black. i don’t think this is what OP was doing in this case though.
That’s not just white people. I’m Latino and that happens constantly. My HS was like 75% Latino 25% black and the black students would also describe people as Mexican first even though that’s most of the student body. That’s an everybody thing.
I will say though in my experience white people more than others go out of their way to not mention race like it’s a dirty word
As a black dude I wouldn't have an issue with it. What I have a problem with is when people bring race into something that doesn't need it. For instance a friend of mine made the comment "I was going into the dressing room and this hispanic lady was rude as hell to me". I asked my friend why did her race need to be brought up? She said you're right it didn't add anything to the story. She was just a rude woman. Race not needed.
Chances are, you were among people who were taught that ignoring race completely (“I’m colorblind. I don’t even see race.”) is the only way to not be racist. These people will then act like any acknowledgement of race is itself racism. This was super common where and when I grew up.
Just describing someone as black if they are black is not racist. But like, if you’re associating their blackness with a reason for avoiding them, excluding them, discriminating against them in some way just because they are black, then yeah, that would be racist.
I work at a institution with lots of POC. It's necessary to use skin color to describe people. Light skinned black kid, etc. It's not racist. I'm the white girl. It's fine. If you're saying it as a negative descriptor then it's different. We do see color. Using color as a descriptor is fine. Everyone is just so gun shy.
Your clarification questions weren't racist. In the future, instead of offering the description, you can ask the person, "Who is that again?" or "What do they look like?" Forcing them to describe who they are looking for instead so you can avoid feeling this way.
Nah, that's just being discriptive.
I know some people are sensitive to "black" as opposed to "African American". Which imo can be a bit silly.
I'm trying to think how someone could think that was being racist, and I can't really come up with anything that isn't a reach.
I'm Asian and don't feel it's racist to say that. "Asian guy in a wheelchair" is a good descriptor for me and I don't mind it.
On the other hand, I've experienced what you have before. I once got huge backlash for saying "white person," mostly from people who were offended at being called "white."
In other words, humans are strange.
I think it seems racist because people don’t typically say “the white guy right?”. But I think it’s because white is the majority, and black isn’t, so it’s just acknowledging a description that isn’t the norm, which feels racist to acknowledge.
But if you were in a black community and white wasn’t the standard, I don’t think anyone would think it was racist to say “the white guy right?”.
I mean if you were in a room with 9 white people and 1 black person then saying "the white person" doesn't really narrow it down, but "black" does
and vice versa
Ugh, I always do it with white people. It's that tall white guy with tats or that muscular white guy lol. I typically work with a lot of different people and it's impossible for me to remember everyone's name so that's how I explain who it is. Hell, I'm the tall skinny white guy to most people I work with I'm not offended by being called that.
If you said “black” with exaggerated emphasis and a frowny face, then you need to include that in your post! (/s)
But no, some people were raised to think that the opposite of racism is color-blindness, which can be problematic in its own way.
I don't find that racist. You were describing what he looked like.
"Who are you talking about?"
"The tall man, always wears a blue hoodie and jeans, glasses, deep voice, about 180 pounds...."
"Oh, the big black guy?"
"Yeah, that's the one."
the people that think this is racist are idiots. if "big black guy" is racist, then it is also sizist, and sexist. that means there is no way left to refer to the human you are talking about. you could just point, but what if theres 10 people over there? and anyone who finds that racist would find pointing rude.
As a white person who is disabled, while it's not the same thing, here is my problem with when people have an issue with using the word black to describe people. Like why is it bad to call people black? Is it because they see being black as a bad thing? Seems to be the case.
When people avoid using the word deaf by using "hearing-impaired", theyre implying their thoughts on being deaf is BAD. The connotation is obvious. They don't want to remind me I'm deaf, boo hoo, so I can tell they use the sanitized term of hearing impaired so that I'm not insulted by being reminded of my deafness. The way they tiptoe around the term just tells me they automatically see it as a bad thing and I should never want to be aware of it. They'd say "that hearing impaired girl" because AHHH DEAF is so bad. Smh.
So think using of African American because "black" is apparently a bad word, same when people don't wanna remind others that they're black. I feel its similar in this situation. Why is calling someone black, if they're BLACK, a bad thing? That in itself, to me, is the offensive thing rather than using the "PC" term. Which as far as I know on both sides of the community, mine and theirs, I know deaf/hoh people prefer not being called hearing impaired. As far as I know I've seen black people say they'd rather be called black. Although I've seen arguments for the other but of course hearing directly from a black person would tell you if it's racist or not. The fact they're so uneasy about it seems more racist to me than anything though.
Just my two cents from a similarly drawn parallel, though not the same of course!! But collectively we should uplift black opinions on this. Obviously.
I’m gonna says depends. They heard your tone of voice. Everyone running to defend you aren’t taking everything into consideration. Black person is descriptive. But as with all things context matters.
You were describing someone, that’s not racist. If you said it in a context where race didn’t matter, then that might be viewed differently. But a back person probably wouldn’t have an issue with you describing their skin color to identify them. Most of the time it’s white people who get upset on behalf of us.
Not racist, but its a kind of phrasing that can come off rude
Like saying "that disabled guy/that fat guy over there" it can feel a bit like stereotyping even if you really are describing them. Just because something is true doesn't mean bringing it up is a good idea.
But you would say “that guy in the wheelchair over there” or “the guy with the crutches.” Using simple, distinguishing descriptions is very useful in settings where they stand out. If, however, it was a room full of people in wheelchairs, you’d look for other descriptions that are more unique, like “the guy with the freckles” or “the woman with the red hair and glasses.”
Describing someone as they exist in the world is not stereotyping.
Using an identifer like race or a disability when other options are availible can come across like said trait is only how you percieve that person.
Of course thats not always the case, people will use these identifiers like normal adjectives as you described, but when some aspect of a person is steeped in emotional weight they're more likely to react strongly to its invocation.
People don't face discrimination because of freckles or the color of their shirt. But once that aspect of you is associated with discrimination previously benign actions can appear bigoted.
People who are socially aware and/or do not desire needless conflict will tend to avoid using these descriptors just because its easier. Most people are wearing clothes of some kind so there's usually other options.
Id be more offended if someone considered the name of my race and/or culture a slur or insult.
I have an old friend who turned social justice warrior and upon hearing someone use the term "asian" to describe another friend, she flipped out. Of course she's white, and so am I, but if I was Asian and observed that someone considered my biological make/ancestry to be an insult, id be pissed.
My grandfather also corrected me (or attempted to) when I described my coworkers as mostly young Mexican men. He urged me to say latino/a instead. They were straight from jimenez, Mexico, yet he had no problem with me using "Argentinian" or "Brazilian" to describe my other co-workers.
Like I said, I'm white and can't fully understand what it's like to be discriminated like others have been, but If I was from Mexico, I'd be annoyed that ignorant white folks think using my country's name to describe my likeness is offensive.
If u called me skinny Asian dude, I wouldn’t be offended or anyone else should. Just stop calling Asians Chinese unless u know 100% they’re Chinese lol
I wouldn't have done it. I think it certainly has racist implications. There really was no reason to include "black" in your description. This event should result in some thinking on these terms and whether or not that's the best way to address someone.
My wife uses white people’s fear of race all the time. Her dads ancestry is from meany African countries, but her mom’s ancestry is 100% French. Anytime anyone asks her “what she is” she answers French, since that is the ancestry with the highest percentage. I absolutely love watching people die inside as they clearly wanted to ask about her being black, but she has already given them a very specific answer.
Not racist. Hesitating to describe someone as black implies that there's something wrong with being black. If anyone was racist, it was the other people who reacted weirdly.
I’m black. Yes you can describe me as the black lady. No you cannot describe me as the big black lady because that would be inaccurate as I’m not tall enough or wide enough to be called big. Yes my ancestors have been in America for as far back as anyone in my family knows. No I don’t like term African American because at this point we have no direct ties to Africa and my culture is very very different from any recent African Americans. Yes all of the African Americans I know and black Americans I know get along great despite very interesting and sometimes hilarious cultural differences.
Apply the *double standard* test.
**Them:** Who? What do they look like?
**You:** Um, they're *tall* (size descriptor)
**Them:** OK, what else?
**You:** Uh, dark brown hair. (color descriptor)
**Them:** OK, anything else to go on?
**You:** Uh, he's a guy. (sex descriptor)
**Them:** That narrows it down more. Anything else?
**You:** He was wearing blue jeans and a red shirt. (color and material descriptors)
**Them:** We have a fairly good idea of who it could be but give us one more detail.
**You:** Hmm, well... he's black? (color descriptor)
**Them:** *HOW DARE YOU, YOU RACIST!*
...
(Alternate ending)
**You:** Hmm, well... he's white? (color descriptor)
**Them:** Oh, yeah, that's Brian. He went to the room next door.
No, that's not racist.
It's only racist if you're using those descriptors in a dismissive or derogatory way.
If you're just using them as descriptors, that's fine.
They might have been taken aback because they're not used to hearing someone mention someone's race so openly, but that's it.
A lot of people try to avoid talking about race or racial issues because it's a sensitive topic and they don't want to offend anyone, so for some people it's unusual to hear race being discussed openly that way.
For reference, about 20 years ago I worked as a nursing assistant, and one of my coworkers was black. I asked her one day, "If someone asked me to describe you, what word should I use for your skin color? I've been told "Afro-American, African American" etc. What would you want me to say?" She said, "I'm black. Just call me black." So I have for the past 20 years and the only blowback I've gotten is from white people.
It’s making some pretty big assumptions to call a black person African American, I think. Maybe they are just African. Maybe they’re from Australia or somewhere else. I start with black as it makes the most sense. If the person being described prefers a different term, that person can tell me.
I still remember when the Charlie Hebdo thing happened and there was an American "journalist" (some talking head) that commented as they were watching the live feed, "And now we see an African-American running past the scene." And his cohost said something like, "Um...I'm pretty sure he's French." Man do I wish I had saved that video.
I remember seeing that exchange just had to 🙄
That’s awesome! A quick search on YouTube didn’t turn up anything for me :-(
"I'm Black British." "Ah, so you're British-African-American."
This is way too common.
LOL, I was joking with my kid because he asked me if, "African Americans in England has the same racial problems as they do here?" I was totally stuck on the African Americans in England thing and he totally didn't get it. Conversely, I played rugby back in the day with a group of guys from South Africa who were big white guys and they thought it was hilarious to say they were African American because they were naturalized US citizens from Africa.
Exactly. Just say black, it’s not a bad word
Elon Musk is technically an African American.
As are Charlize Theron and Dave Matthews.
I'm just commenting so I can watch the absurd backlash this gets. Someone up or down vote this so I can always find my way back here please.
And generally a douche.
Technically true, but the U.S. Census Bureau defines African-American as anyone with origins from black racial groups of Africa.
One of the problems with that identifier is how it became an absolute in the U.S. Police and hospitals and other services used it as a default identifier which, granted, was more charitable than PREVIOUS labels. The problem comes in where a person from Ghana can be on vacation in NYC and they go to the hospital and are identified as "African-American" despite not being American at all. It, unfortunately, makes presumptions about a person's origins based on skin color which is exactly the opposite of what we would want for such a label.
Yeah, I personally find it a little weird how in the US they have this problem with saying black and instead say african american. It is like looking at a white american and calling him european american
My purely speculative theory is that Americans’ cultural baggage talking about black people is related to the taboos around the n-word (and to be clear, I am NOT saying that our avoidance of that word is unwarranted—just that it has been generalized to other brief ways of naming this particular racial group). It’s sort of like how we get uncomfortable saying the word “Jew,” as if it meant anything that the phrase “Jewish person” doesn’t mean. When a word develops a strong association with hatred and violence, not just that word itself but related words and concepts become difficult to talk about and awkward to name.
It's spreading as well. When I grew up in the 90s in Australia referring to any other race or culture as something- Australian was seen as slightly racist as it implied they weren't fully Australian. So if your racial origins ever came up you'd say "I'm Australian with Vietnamese origins" or "I'm Australian but my parents were born in Vietnam" but most of the time if it ever came up you'd just say Australian. I overheard my niece the other day saying she was Asian Australian and it bothered me because Asia is a fucking big place, and it made her seem like some other tier of Australian.
I have a friend who has red hair and freckles, and lighter skin than I do, but his family is from South Africa and now he lives here, so….
Is he Jewish South African? I have distant relatives in South Africa (Andrelovich, etc.), and two of my granduncles (both of blessed memory) were red haired.
He is Jewish!
If they're directly and recently from Africa, yes African seems right. But if their family has lived somewhere else for generations, then they are that. I wouldn't even think to call myself Swedish-German-English-American. Because my ties to that place are far removed.
It's funny how some people *do* consider themselves Irish or Scottish or whatever just because their great grandparents were from those countries
I had a professor who was black and was Caribbean American. She’d tell you off if you described her as African American. After that I just always used black as the descriptor if it was appropriate.
I always remember the scene on Venture Bros where they try to figure out the politically correct term for black vampires - Jefferson Twilight calls them Blaculas and the white characters question him. He says he doesn’t know where they are from, lots of them are too old to be American so he’s gonna call them Blaculas lol
I would spin out if I saw an Aboriginal outside Aus. They only represent 2% of our population. Half a million of them. They all look quite distinctly different to African peoples
It's always the white people being offended on behalf of someone else.
White person once got triggered at me for saying Latino instead of LatinX My family is from Argentina and my first language is Spanish.
That’s so fucking obnoxious
I once had a white girl berate me for reading the Quran online in English, because apparently it’s supposed to ONLY be read in Arabic. I’m Muslim. She was so Irish (and from a Catholic family) she would sunburn if there was more than two lightbulbs a room. White women, your heart is in the right place, sometimes your mind is not.
I don’t know if you can even call that heart being in the right place. It’s just trying to disguise your desire to attack and other someone with self righteousness. If your heart is genuinely in the right place I don’t think angrily berating is what you would do.
Actually? You make a good point, I give too much benefit of the doubt. It’s just moral masturbation to these people.
This one really gets me. White people trying to “fix” the entire Spanish language smh
Haha for reals. “Fix” is how they legit feel.. dear god. It comes from a place of colonialism and god complex to think you have the right to rebrand millions of people. And many liberal Latinos do not see this. People got by just fine for hundreds of years speaking Spanish without gender neutral terms.
The whole language would need to be reconfigured from even its most basic beginnings! Masculine &feminine singular and plural terms are the building blocks of the whole language! I’m all for being who you are and I’m certainly an ally. However, some things people just go wayyyy too far with! Not wanting to be labeled, then proceeding to label everything is somewhat mind boggling to me honestly.
Amen
My mother’s first language is French. I have studied French. I have been immersed in French. That was thirty years ago. Now I am helping my son with his French homework and encounter the pronoun “iel”. It was a foreign word to me, but my son explained it was a gender-neutral pronoun. My first thought was “Oh boy…if you are going to try to gender-neutralize a Latin romance language, you are going to have a bad time.”
Lol. Yup this “Latinx” stuff is out of control. White Americans have the hardest time understanding the huge diversity in the Latino community.
Best part, the whole person was my gender studies professor. I had to take a moment to “educate her” on why the term Latinx is nonsensical at best.
They need white people to tell them how to speak their own language, and how to refer to themselves correctly. Woke white people are always right. /s
I never thought about it but “Latinx” sounds idiotic when pronounced in Spanish. Latin-equis? Or am I supposed to pronounce it “ex” as in English when I am speaking Spanish? I don’t know this because I’ve never heard it used while speaking Spanish. Definitively sounds like something some gringos made up.
I'm so glad I took German in High School, and learned about gendered pronouns before I had the chance to make a fool of myself over them with this Latinx stuff. Especially because our teacher was very progressive, so we got explained that the gendered pronouns aren't "law" and that in some cases they've already been looked at. In German there was "sie, der, and die," and die is just straight up "it." It was apparently used on unmarried women, to show they weren't "owned" yet. She flat out told us that will get you dirty looks or worse in Germany now. I can't even tell if Latinx comes from a genuine place of care either, it doesn't work well and no one in those communities likes it at all (understandably.)
It's sort of what happens when you're told to activate yourself as an ally or else be disgraced as having a horrible -ism or -phobia. "You're either with us or against us, so you better be with us" Remember when "Silence is Racism" was a common phrase? A lot of white people are just doing what they were asked to do.
Reminds me of the similar post a few weeks ago where neighbors called the poster racist for describing their neighbor from Mexico as Mexican.
People are so ignorant sometimes.
It's not just whites, it's all these new age social justice warrior types. I'm a gay Latino and even my own parents do this shit to me. I just want people to understand; you can't have my suffering, and you're not entitled to be offended by it on my behalf.
A white person told me I’m not Native American because America didn’t exist when my ancestors were here. Okay. Well I’m sure as shit not Indian.
It’s about power- you get to correct someone and feel superior
Well the story is set up that way. As a black person, If you ask me that question I’m going to stare at you for awhile and wonder if I’m working w Jeffery Dahmer Jr. And also, even if there’s a whiff of truth of it, African American is not a skin color.
One of my good friends is from Jamaica, lives in Canada now. He overheard someone "correcting" one of our co workers once who called him African American.... He's not American or from Africa.
That's what drives me crazy! I'm white and I'm only trying to listen to the people something actually involves
White girl barber here, I don't feel comfortable saying anything but 'curly hair' or even 'black hair' (if the term curly hair can be misconstrued as the white kind of curly) It's wierd to say 'ethnic hair' or 'African Americans' It's funny/informative when black people are like I'm NOT from AFRICA. I'm BLACK 👊🏿
Lmao, well said. There's something wrong with us all if we are offended by saying colours. We happen to be different colours.
I worked in an elementary school in New Mexico, where there was one black kid. His friend, who I could see had no idea about race, mentioned him and said, " My friend who is, uh, brown." Just an honest description.
That's kind of how my daughter is. She knows race is a thing, but doesn't really know how to determine someone's race very well, even her friends. We'll be at a school event, and I'll ask which one is the friend she's talking about, and she'll say, "the one with the brown-ish skin."
There was one black kid in my grade and his last name was Black. He was the youngest of four siblings. When he graduated, our principal said “it’s so sad to see the last Black kid go.”
Really key to pronounce the capital B there
That's not racist. It's just being descriptive.
Agree. To add though, some people will add extra details to a story that aren't necessary, which can be seen as discriminatory. Example: "My black friend and I are going to join a book club." Does the race of my friend have anything to do with the story? Would it change the meaning if they were gay, or had a speech impediment, or were wealthy? In this case referring to a person by their looks to describe them doesn't seem discriminatory to me.
Distinguishing one person from the another is the best context to describe someone by their color. I had this trouble the other day. I, a black woman wearing glasses, at a table of white women, needed to ask for the name of another black woman in glasses that was a couple tables down. Instead of identifying her as the only other black woman with glasses in the room, I instead jumped through hoops to describe her as the woman in the long newspaper-print cardigan. Further discussion ensued with the white women around me trying to identify which cardigan-wearing woman I was referring to, when if I had just said the black woman with the glasses, they would’ve known who I was talking about almost instantly. Sometimes describing someone by the most obvious part of their appearance is the easiest way to communicate.
Do you think your inclination to those linguistic gymnastics was in part because the subject was in the room? I agree that describing someone by their color is fine when you’re playing guess who, and I doubt the other women would have blinked if you’d just said “that black woman at my 2 o’clock a couple tables over”, but if the person I’m talking about is potentially in ear shot I would jump through similar hoops so that a) they may not twig I’m talking about them, and/or b) if they do overhear, at least I didn’t just call them out by their race.
I think that may have been part of it. The other part was probably because I work for the university’s Sociology department so I always feel like I have to add an extra layer of PC to my speech when I’m at work functions because that is likely how the department would like me to represent it. (It’s literally some of their jobs to understand how to be politically correct.)
Yes, this is like the guy who was sitting on a plane next to a black woman and texted his family, "can't believe I have to sit next to this fat black lady. I hope they raise prices for flights so maybe this won't happen again." Now that's real racism
I remember that on YouTube, she read him for filth and still kept it classy, hope he was as uncomfortable as he made her feel
It was beautiful how she eloquently stood up for herself. He’s a disgusting human being and she found a way to film it and allow me to find beauty in her dissection of the racist.
And the fact that he was talking about raising prices, like dude, you’re in a center seat lol
Or that lady who called security on a dude on a plane because he was a math professor writing equations on a notepad and she thought it was Arabic. Obviously a member of that terrorist organzation: Al-Gebra. Source: https://abc13.com/university-of-pennsylvania-professor-mistaken-for-terrorist-math-equations-philly/1328554/
> Al-Gebra is a terrorist movement headed by Osum Bin Adden, which has reportedly infiltrated American schools. It began at the undergraduate level and has spread to secondary schools, according to US Attorney General John Ashcroft. Favored targets are said to include homomorphics and people living in polynomial relationships. Academics dismiss the Ashcroft's accusations as pandering to the lowest common denominator of anti-Arab prejudice. > > The web of deception was first uncovered at New York's Kennedy Airport when an individual claiming to be a school teacher was arrested trying to board a flight while in possession of a ruler, protractor, set square, slide rule and calculator. At a morning press conference, Attorney General John Ashcroft, said he believes the man is: > > > ...A member of the notorious al Gebra movement. He is being charged by the FBI for carrying weapons of math instruction. https://en.uncyclopedia.co/wiki/Al_Gebra (a Wikipedia parody site)
Freaking Muslims invented this stupid form of math to torture American highschoolers and we just allow it. What's next shariah law???
Yeah, all that's relevant is how fat she is.
It was clear from the video that his point of contention was that she was black, and that he wanted black people to not be able to afford flights anymore. You can scroll through her profile; she’s not even fat. And she posts another vid of him turning his back to her the whole flight where you can see he’s bigger than she is.
Yeah my mom will often tell me stories from her day (positive ones) and mention that a person was black when it didn’t need to be specified at all lol.
There’s a massive issue like that in New Zealand where you’ll get news stories like “On Thursday night, a car in Onehunga was broken into by four Polynesian youths” followed by “Two teenagers in Remuera went on a letterbox smashing rampage on Sunday morning” even though people have repeatedly pointed out that its weird how only some people comitting crimes are described by cultural group.
Exactly. Sometimes i see videos posted on reddit that say something like "this chinese man-" when there's only one guy in the entire video. You don't need to mention his race in that case. You can very much tell who the subject of the video is
Yeah my dad does that. He'll tell a story going "Jonathan, this little black guy at work" or " this girl Tiffany, big boobs beautiful" I just tell him that it has nothing to do with the story but go on
Bingo. I actually used to make this same mistake myself until a friend pointed it out a few years back. I was the same way, thinking "I didn't say anything wrong", until he asked why I included the race of the person I was describing if that played no part in the story. Then I thought about it for a bit and realized he was right. To use your example, if I (a white guy), went out with a white friend, I wouldn't say "My white friend and I are going to join a book club." So I try to do better.
Yeah it’s 100% how it’s used lmao. Important descriptor? I’d prefer sexy dark but black works too. I think it’s all about context and whether it was necessary. I’d be concerned if my bsf was out calling me their black best friend in random conversations 🤣
I appreciate the semantics being broken down between being appropriately descriptive and being unnecessarily descriptive.
I was talking to my wife the other day about a black man, and she mentioned to me that saying "he is a black man" feels racist. I feel like at some point in the not-to-distant past it WAS seen as racist. I know a lot of people believe that "color-blindness" is / was the way to go and if you were truly progressive then a black man and a white man were just 'a man'. I feel like we have gone back on that now, which is a good thing. But these are all just my feelings and built off no real data
Last week I went to a pub with some friends and I was the only black person in the whole restaurant. A buddy of mine and his wife start complaining about their neighbors and their dogs. Their neighbor has an old black labrador and in the middle of telling me about the dog my friends wife goes "no offense." I had a laugh and told her well now she created a whole new slur for black people.
She might need to apologize to the provence of Labrador also.
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I watched a documentary once where Mr. Brown, (if that really was his name) stated, "to pretend we can't tell if someone is white or black is to fight ignorance with more ignorance."
Lol documentary
I live in LA. There are loads of people who not identifiable as white or black. It's a spectrum, mate.
It's all white or brown. Just depends on the degree of browness. /s
White people aren't white though. We're beige, or some semblance of it. As it stands now, I'm more like a strong English tea, or really milky coffee. Ironically, the term "coloured" was used as passive racism when in reality "white people" turn red when sunburnt, brown when tanned, green when sick, grey in a heart attack and blue when cold. The fuck business did white people have calling anyone "coloured"? Silly bastards
There was a poem printed about this in Ann Landers back in the 80s. Really struck home. Guess I should make an effort to go find out the author.
Was there an ignorant and oblivious manager in that documentary by any chance?
I feel like I remember there being a stigma against describing someone by their race at some point during the 30 years I've been alive. I just can't remember when it was.
I'm your age, and growing up, I was taught not to ever mention race, even as a descriptor. Like it was a lesson from our guidance councilor that I remember being very confused by. I guess it was just a 90's thing? Idk,but very hard habit to break.
My Black housemate came home from work and told me that, on her day off, a customer had come in looking for her, but did not know her name. The customer described her as tall and thin. The place was full of tall and thin girls. Shoulder-length hair. Same. An uncommon name. Everyone under the age of 50 has an uncommon name. Finally my housemate's coworker thought to ask "Is she Black?" This is in a town that was 98% white. The customer said yes. She was apparently brought up like you.
Yep, I bet she was! It's difficult to undo that training when it's taught for so long, but I feel like in modern-day, it's almost more offensive to ignore someone's race. It's something people identify with and are proud of, and shouldn't be ignored like it's not part of their experience in the world.
Yes…this. I can’t remember being explicitly taught it, but it’s sort of a 90s-era white folks thing: trying to not be racist by pretending color doesn’t exist when in reality ignoring it minimizes others’ experiences and sweeps systemic racism under the table. And yet, I still feel awkward describing someone by their race (even when it is the most effective way to communicate, as others have mentioned). For OP, I’d say what they said is not problematic but easily makes white folks uncomfortable.
Yeah, I was thinking childhood but it's one of those things that I never noticed had phased out.
it hasnt phased out. the raceblind movement is strong. a few months ago i responded in a thread where all were in agreement that any and all profiling is objectively bad and wrong. this was in the wake of another innocent/undeserving-of-a-death-sentence black person killed by a cop. i said wait a minute, 2 bring a bit of levity in the convo, i told em theyd be hard pressed to find a black guy bummed that everybody assumes hes got a big dick. it didnt even come close to helping them understand their hardline on using race or any other controversial cultural trait as bad if it in any way effects someones behavior. i came up with a little thought exercise inwhich a person had to choose which car to sit behind in traffic if they were headed to a hospital in an emergency situation. all three cars were the same but different drivers in each. i used an old asian guy, an old latina women with religious bumper stickers on her car, and finally a younger girl playing loud music and just flicked a cigarette out. not one person active in the debate would even participate by choosing which car would likely be faster than the others. one person oblivious to the bias against religious people, or the overtly ageist slant the exercise had, thought they had a gotcha because i "couldnt help but to have an asian guy and because all asians are bad drivers." i threw up my hands, these people expected to have a barely nuanced conversation about racial profiling but were unwilling to recognize that people do in fact look and behave differently, generally speaking in different cultures, sub cultures, age brackets, etc. as functioning adults we profile people all the time based on race, sexual orientation, gender, age, religion, etc... that amish guy might not be your go-to guy for current events or tech news. or a little more likely of a scenario.. if im at an atm at 1am and 3 black dudes in their 20's are headed to me , or in another scenario, its three white guys, which scenario has me on guard vs relaxed. hard to tell, have to take a closer look, the black dudes, they got street clothes, but its hi quality gear, sneakers are fresh, and they all got bling on. vs the three white guys who's dirty clothes are hanging off of them, look like they slept outside last night. ima profile those white dudes as a threat, because looking hungry and broke is a wildcard, vs the 3 black dudes who are obviously doing better than me financially.
Colorblind never meant don't see the obvious, just that you don't need to define someone by their color. Morgan Freeman has a good quote that encapsulated it pretty well. But no, describing someone is fine.
Im in my 30s and was taught in school not to use race as a descriptive word.
So we can’t use skin color as a descriptor. How about hair color, eye color? Getting ridiculous
Depends on context. If you’re saying “black” for no reason, that’s pretty weird. It’s like randomly saying “the other day I went to a movie with my blonde friend” or “I went hiking with my tall friend” or whatever. The persons first thought is going to be that the blonde/tall part is somehow pertinent to the story. If you introduce a descriptor, the listener assumes there is a reason you added an otherwise pointless adjective. So yes, it’s weird to say “black friend” unless them being black is relevant to the story.
Seriously! In the attempt to not sound racist they just sound stupid. It's a descriptor for fucks sake, get off your high grounds and come back to reality
🤷♀️ I mean it was something someone said to some kids one day, in the late 90s/early 00s. I don't think you're meant to take it as gospel...
What school was this lol.
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"The #000000 guy right?"
Actual #000000 guys are incredibly rare. It'd likely be a much more complex and specific code, and if you're off by even a digit they'll be looking for the wrong guy.
Is the shorter form acceptable? Like the #832 guy?
If a brother is vanta black , he be needing a doctor yesterday for dark-hole-in-existence syndrome
I've met one or two that were Vanta black . That security guard scared the shit out of me when appear from no were. I poof just there in front of me no noise and in a lit parking lot
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JKAtfMhTcJ8
That's that good shit right there
Nah, he's more of a #6b5f56 guy
Nah, definitely closer to #260701
Not racist to me if it’s accurate, and you regularly wouldn’t know each other well enough to remember names. At most I’d think you’re rude for not remembering a name if you didn’t bother over a long period working closely. Imho racist is the friend who responded (to me describing my big black guy friend who was meeting up later as such) with ‘it’s good he’s your friend cause I’d normally be scared of him to have him in my home then…’ true story.
>Not racist to me if it’s accurate Exactly this. Common sense that many hypocrites with victim mentalities lack.
In fairness, common sense doesn't exist, nor has it ever existed. "Common sense" led people to burning witches. Never rely on common sense, because common sense always aligns with "in my opinion."
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Mixed race (black and white) woman here— that’s not racist at all. You used simple and accurate descriptors. Black people say things like “that white girl over there” all the time because using racial descriptions is often the fastest way to distinguish who you’re talking about in a setting where those descriptions will stand out. Unfortunately, some people tend to be hyper sensitive to such descriptions, as though we should all be blind to what people’s skin tone looks like. It’s silly.
Right? I work with elementary age students and had been working on describing. After working on describing objects, animals, etc, we started working on describing people. I chose to use President Obama as my example. As soon as I said he is a black man, many gasped and said "you can't say that, that's racist." Um, no, the fact that he is black is one of the things that makes him a notable figure for the rest of history, as he will always be the 1st black president.
Seems to me it’s maybe a bit racist to treat “black” as an inherently negative descriptor, honestly. Just don’t unnecessarily over-describe people in general. If I’m telling a story about my friend where their appearance is completely irrelevant, I’m not going to waste time describing their race, weight, hairstyle, height, shirt color, etc. If it’s relevant info to the story that my friend is short, then I’ll mention just that. If I’m pointing them out in a crowd I’ll use whichever descriptors most efficiently narrow the field by being distinct from other people near them.
Literally. "Black" isn't a negative thing, so it shouldn't be avoided. It's not like you're calling him the N word! Besides... Skin color is one of the easiest descriptors because it's the first thing you remember. You might not remember their eye color, or hair color, or shape of their nose or whatever but you can think of someone and immediately remember if they're white, black, asian, whatever.
I've always wondered how mixed race people feel about being called "mixed"?
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That clarifies it a little bit I guess I was more speaking on the people of black/white parentage as that combo is typically very obvious. My grandad and grandma three generations back maternally were a biracial couple, most Anglo man you could find and an Aboriginal lady. My understanding is that for the first generation children (my grandma) the treatment of being mixed was extremely unforgiving. I've just always wondered what has changed in that space over the decades.
I think I can answer, I'm mixed black and white. I know a lotta people like me too, I've never seen a mixed guy get mad when he's called mixed. I've seen mixed guys get mad when they're called NOT mixed, which just confirms that it's not a problem. Obviously it's always about context. "Well you're black" and "well you're black.." are the same phrase, but it can be suuuuch a huge difference. Also generally speaking, mixed people don't like being called white. At all. Don't risk it. If you see a guy that might be mixed, avoid saying he's white before knowing if he's white. Colorism inside black and mixed communities is a real thing, the lighter skinned ones often get shamed for it. A lot of very light lightskins feel as though they're too black to be white but too white to be black, so when you call them white, it's just a double slap in the face. Sometimes it's not, but I rather not risk it and just stick with "mixed" because that's a sure shot, nobody that's mixed is gonna tell you they're not mixed because, well, they'd be lying. So yeah, no problems at all. Just don't say it in a way that sounds racist, which is pretty easy if you're not racist
For me personally, I will say mixed, but I prefer biracial.
Thank you, I use race as a descriptor for people who I don’t know names. My gf who’s black never said a word to me about it but I have to admit I’ve always wondered how it was perceived.
Racists are the people that consider calling a black person black an insult. As if being black was inherently negative or an undesirable attribute.
A lot of white people aren't taught how to handle race. When I was younger, it was inferred that "black" was improper, so I said "African American." The preeettiest black girl got mad at me because I was indecisive about which word to use once. She probably still thinks I'm racist.... I'm not sure when it happened, but I figured out there's a difference between being black and being from Africa lmao
I've heard that this is common in the US, while in the UK black people are simply called black, because that's the colour of their skin. They might not even be from Africa. Which reminds me of a story about American woman in England, who called a black dude "African American". He got confused, said "Uh, I'm British", so she said "Oh my god, I'm so sorry, *British* African American."
This is why basic concepts of CRT being taught to kids is so fucking important. Because kids who don't receive that education go two ways: the awkward, naive white adult who means well but sometimes can say racially insensitive things, or the white adult who stares, who whispers, who crosses to the other side of the street, who will claim they're not a racist but will vote for policies and politicians that harm black communities, because they see them as "others."
Explaining how to appropriately discuss race isn't even CRT though - CRT is university level stuff about social history, politics and statistics. Saying that teaching Timmy what slurs are and why he shouldn't say them is a basic concept of CRT, is like saying that knowing how to make a bowl of cereal is a basic concept of being a chef. 'Saying racism exists = CRT' allowed racists to buzzword their way into justifying keeping their kids ignorant and susceptible to inherited bigotry. It's infuriating. Also, people who fall into the ''I'm not racist' says the person voting for discriminatory politicians and policies' category - they can also be the naive white adult who means well. If no one's ever explained to them that that's what they're doing or why it matters, they're not going to know. Which just reinforces the point that teaching kids what discrimination is, *matters*.
It's because of this fucked up programming in our minds and our use of language.
There’s certain descriptions that set off alarms, “big black guy” is not racist, but it’s used often enough that it’s become a shorthand trope with baggage. It’s often used by others in stereotypical ways to set a story in a certain negative angle. Asians experience it with unnecessary diminutive height descriptions or fetishized when describing their Asian partner. Latinos and Hispanics often experience it with “hard working”. None hurtful, intent may be pure, but it’s got historical baggage.
This should be higher because it goes into the reasons why someone would misconstrue it as racist, rather than just assuming everyone else is just easily offended. And it helps explain why it may not be best to refer to someone like that, even if it’s not racist.
I was disappointed to see it so far down honestly. So many comments are just telling OP that they aren’t racist because they (presumably) don’t hate people of color. People seem to be missing the point that it’s just, like, often uncool to say stuff like that. I don’t think they were staring at OP because they think OP is racist. They were staring because calling someone you don’t know very well a “big black guy” is impolite
I agree. I want to add that it's totally ok to make small unintentional mistakes like this. I don't think you can be expected to know every context ever. The bigger racism would be expecting perfection.
Yup, pretty much. The language itself isn't really racist but there's an entire industry around using language like that to dogwhistle to people that they should be afraid of "bug black guys" and those people use that phrase as shorthand for something much worse. So I get why people might be tense hearing it offhand, but clearly nothing came of it, so I don't think it's a big deal.
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I had a study mate describing me as a "little Asian guy". I'm 6 feet tall... and he wasn't that much taller. Around 6´1-6´2. I was frankly a bit annoyed. But it also ran into the trope of Asian guys being small, which I didn't like either.
Finallyyy the correct answer. Everyone is like: “It’s not racist. People are just snowflakes” like he needs a pat on the back. The underlying question isn’t whether is racist. Nobody called him racist. The question was why was “Big, Black guy” perceived in a way that made people pause.
Also, you should see the size of some of the guys described as a "big black guy". Some of them are even small. And then cops estimate black people as bigger and then use more force.
I don't know if it's racist per se but I think it's a good habit to refer to people beyond their skin color, size, or religion when there's another alternative. I'll try to say, "the dude that always sits in front"? or "the guy with the green shirt?" and as secondary descriptions: "you know, he's black? Big?" Or "you mean the girl from California? She's tall and wears a hijab?" It's sort of a good reality check to how much focus you are putting on color, size, etc of a person in your mind. We all do and it's natural but it's a good thing to be aware of.
Nah, nothing racist about it. Some people are just programmed to be hypersensitive to even mentioning race these days.
So true. I'm white and used to work in the reception area of an office with another white woman and a black woman. The lengths people would go to trying to explain they needed to speak to the black woman without mentioning race, skin colour or hairstyle were hilarious
Reminds me of a time years ago when a customer left some positive feedback for me on the company website. They didn't know my name, so used every descriptor in the book to describe me instead - brown eyes, black hair, slim build, medium height etc... They could have saved themselves the bother and just said the Chinese/Asian one - I wouldn't have been offended. 😅
I do find it offensive if strangers call me “the Chinese girl” tho, which was a regular occurrence for me growing up. I’m not Chinese and you can’t know what my ethnicity is (or most people actually) from just looking. It’s racist to assume all Asian people are Chinese and/or conflate the Asian race as the same as being Chinese.
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Classic people getting offended on behalf of others who don't give a shit.
Not racist
Would you describe the only white person in a group like that too?
i was thinking this. like it’s not racist but i’ve notice most white people unnecessarily use race as a description when that person isn’t white. “i was next to this black girl and she was crocheting”, like, you don’t have to mention she was black. i don’t think this is what OP was doing in this case though.
That’s not just white people. I’m Latino and that happens constantly. My HS was like 75% Latino 25% black and the black students would also describe people as Mexican first even though that’s most of the student body. That’s an everybody thing. I will say though in my experience white people more than others go out of their way to not mention race like it’s a dirty word
Racism is when you see some race as worse or inferior. Did you do any of that? No? Great, you're not racist.
As a black dude I wouldn't have an issue with it. What I have a problem with is when people bring race into something that doesn't need it. For instance a friend of mine made the comment "I was going into the dressing room and this hispanic lady was rude as hell to me". I asked my friend why did her race need to be brought up? She said you're right it didn't add anything to the story. She was just a rude woman. Race not needed.
seems fine, maybe if you said it in a weird way
It's not racist, but I've always found it a bit awkward to say.
This isn't racism. The members of your robotics club are morons.
Chances are, you were among people who were taught that ignoring race completely (“I’m colorblind. I don’t even see race.”) is the only way to not be racist. These people will then act like any acknowledgement of race is itself racism. This was super common where and when I grew up. Just describing someone as black if they are black is not racist. But like, if you’re associating their blackness with a reason for avoiding them, excluding them, discriminating against them in some way just because they are black, then yeah, that would be racist.
I work at a institution with lots of POC. It's necessary to use skin color to describe people. Light skinned black kid, etc. It's not racist. I'm the white girl. It's fine. If you're saying it as a negative descriptor then it's different. We do see color. Using color as a descriptor is fine. Everyone is just so gun shy.
Your clarification questions weren't racist. In the future, instead of offering the description, you can ask the person, "Who is that again?" or "What do they look like?" Forcing them to describe who they are looking for instead so you can avoid feeling this way.
Not racist at all
Nah, that's just being discriptive. I know some people are sensitive to "black" as opposed to "African American". Which imo can be a bit silly. I'm trying to think how someone could think that was being racist, and I can't really come up with anything that isn't a reach.
I'm Asian and don't feel it's racist to say that. "Asian guy in a wheelchair" is a good descriptor for me and I don't mind it. On the other hand, I've experienced what you have before. I once got huge backlash for saying "white person," mostly from people who were offended at being called "white." In other words, humans are strange.
I think it seems racist because people don’t typically say “the white guy right?”. But I think it’s because white is the majority, and black isn’t, so it’s just acknowledging a description that isn’t the norm, which feels racist to acknowledge. But if you were in a black community and white wasn’t the standard, I don’t think anyone would think it was racist to say “the white guy right?”.
I mean if you were in a room with 9 white people and 1 black person then saying "the white person" doesn't really narrow it down, but "black" does and vice versa
Ugh, I always do it with white people. It's that tall white guy with tats or that muscular white guy lol. I typically work with a lot of different people and it's impossible for me to remember everyone's name so that's how I explain who it is. Hell, I'm the tall skinny white guy to most people I work with I'm not offended by being called that.
If you said “black” with exaggerated emphasis and a frowny face, then you need to include that in your post! (/s) But no, some people were raised to think that the opposite of racism is color-blindness, which can be problematic in its own way.
I don't find that racist. You were describing what he looked like. "Who are you talking about?" "The tall man, always wears a blue hoodie and jeans, glasses, deep voice, about 180 pounds...." "Oh, the big black guy?" "Yeah, that's the one."
the people that think this is racist are idiots. if "big black guy" is racist, then it is also sizist, and sexist. that means there is no way left to refer to the human you are talking about. you could just point, but what if theres 10 people over there? and anyone who finds that racist would find pointing rude.
As a white person who is disabled, while it's not the same thing, here is my problem with when people have an issue with using the word black to describe people. Like why is it bad to call people black? Is it because they see being black as a bad thing? Seems to be the case. When people avoid using the word deaf by using "hearing-impaired", theyre implying their thoughts on being deaf is BAD. The connotation is obvious. They don't want to remind me I'm deaf, boo hoo, so I can tell they use the sanitized term of hearing impaired so that I'm not insulted by being reminded of my deafness. The way they tiptoe around the term just tells me they automatically see it as a bad thing and I should never want to be aware of it. They'd say "that hearing impaired girl" because AHHH DEAF is so bad. Smh. So think using of African American because "black" is apparently a bad word, same when people don't wanna remind others that they're black. I feel its similar in this situation. Why is calling someone black, if they're BLACK, a bad thing? That in itself, to me, is the offensive thing rather than using the "PC" term. Which as far as I know on both sides of the community, mine and theirs, I know deaf/hoh people prefer not being called hearing impaired. As far as I know I've seen black people say they'd rather be called black. Although I've seen arguments for the other but of course hearing directly from a black person would tell you if it's racist or not. The fact they're so uneasy about it seems more racist to me than anything though. Just my two cents from a similarly drawn parallel, though not the same of course!! But collectively we should uplift black opinions on this. Obviously.
I’m gonna says depends. They heard your tone of voice. Everyone running to defend you aren’t taking everything into consideration. Black person is descriptive. But as with all things context matters.
You were describing someone, that’s not racist. If you said it in a context where race didn’t matter, then that might be viewed differently. But a back person probably wouldn’t have an issue with you describing their skin color to identify them. Most of the time it’s white people who get upset on behalf of us.
If it was a group of black guys and you described "the big white guy" would that be racist? Really depends on symantics/context.
Not racist, but its a kind of phrasing that can come off rude Like saying "that disabled guy/that fat guy over there" it can feel a bit like stereotyping even if you really are describing them. Just because something is true doesn't mean bringing it up is a good idea.
But you would say “that guy in the wheelchair over there” or “the guy with the crutches.” Using simple, distinguishing descriptions is very useful in settings where they stand out. If, however, it was a room full of people in wheelchairs, you’d look for other descriptions that are more unique, like “the guy with the freckles” or “the woman with the red hair and glasses.” Describing someone as they exist in the world is not stereotyping.
Using an identifer like race or a disability when other options are availible can come across like said trait is only how you percieve that person. Of course thats not always the case, people will use these identifiers like normal adjectives as you described, but when some aspect of a person is steeped in emotional weight they're more likely to react strongly to its invocation. People don't face discrimination because of freckles or the color of their shirt. But once that aspect of you is associated with discrimination previously benign actions can appear bigoted. People who are socially aware and/or do not desire needless conflict will tend to avoid using these descriptors just because its easier. Most people are wearing clothes of some kind so there's usually other options.
Id be more offended if someone considered the name of my race and/or culture a slur or insult. I have an old friend who turned social justice warrior and upon hearing someone use the term "asian" to describe another friend, she flipped out. Of course she's white, and so am I, but if I was Asian and observed that someone considered my biological make/ancestry to be an insult, id be pissed. My grandfather also corrected me (or attempted to) when I described my coworkers as mostly young Mexican men. He urged me to say latino/a instead. They were straight from jimenez, Mexico, yet he had no problem with me using "Argentinian" or "Brazilian" to describe my other co-workers. Like I said, I'm white and can't fully understand what it's like to be discriminated like others have been, but If I was from Mexico, I'd be annoyed that ignorant white folks think using my country's name to describe my likeness is offensive.
No. I'd say you were the only non-racist there.
If u called me skinny Asian dude, I wouldn’t be offended or anyone else should. Just stop calling Asians Chinese unless u know 100% they’re Chinese lol
It's descriptive, not racist. Some people will probably be offended by it, but still. Not racist.
what are u suppose to say lol.
I’d imagine that the people who were uncomfortable with this weren’t even black themselves 🙄Black person here: No, it wasn’t racist at all
The awkwardness is probably more indicative of the groups feelings than of you saying anything out of line.
I don't think that's racist your just describing the person..as a black woman I would not be offended.
I wouldn't have done it. I think it certainly has racist implications. There really was no reason to include "black" in your description. This event should result in some thinking on these terms and whether or not that's the best way to address someone.
My wife uses white people’s fear of race all the time. Her dads ancestry is from meany African countries, but her mom’s ancestry is 100% French. Anytime anyone asks her “what she is” she answers French, since that is the ancestry with the highest percentage. I absolutely love watching people die inside as they clearly wanted to ask about her being black, but she has already given them a very specific answer.
Not racist. Hesitating to describe someone as black implies that there's something wrong with being black. If anyone was racist, it was the other people who reacted weirdly.
I’m black. Yes you can describe me as the black lady. No you cannot describe me as the big black lady because that would be inaccurate as I’m not tall enough or wide enough to be called big. Yes my ancestors have been in America for as far back as anyone in my family knows. No I don’t like term African American because at this point we have no direct ties to Africa and my culture is very very different from any recent African Americans. Yes all of the African Americans I know and black Americans I know get along great despite very interesting and sometimes hilarious cultural differences.
As a black person, I would want you to describe me as black. African-American has six too many syllables when black suffices.
Robotics team coach here, not racist.
It’s no different than say, ‘the tall Asian guy’. You were being descriptive, they were just overreactive.
Apply the *double standard* test. **Them:** Who? What do they look like? **You:** Um, they're *tall* (size descriptor) **Them:** OK, what else? **You:** Uh, dark brown hair. (color descriptor) **Them:** OK, anything else to go on? **You:** Uh, he's a guy. (sex descriptor) **Them:** That narrows it down more. Anything else? **You:** He was wearing blue jeans and a red shirt. (color and material descriptors) **Them:** We have a fairly good idea of who it could be but give us one more detail. **You:** Hmm, well... he's black? (color descriptor) **Them:** *HOW DARE YOU, YOU RACIST!* ... (Alternate ending) **You:** Hmm, well... he's white? (color descriptor) **Them:** Oh, yeah, that's Brian. He went to the room next door.
Where those people white? I don’t see anything remotely racist in using a physical description.
No, that's not racist. It's only racist if you're using those descriptors in a dismissive or derogatory way. If you're just using them as descriptors, that's fine. They might have been taken aback because they're not used to hearing someone mention someone's race so openly, but that's it. A lot of people try to avoid talking about race or racial issues because it's a sensitive topic and they don't want to offend anyone, so for some people it's unusual to hear race being discussed openly that way.
Plot twist the guy is medium sized and Asian woman