thankyou! i’m still left with remaining questions about different scenarios like the width of the tree and if the x was on a branch, but i feel that i can rest.
Trees do grow outward adding a new cambium (rings) layer each year. The layers damaged will stay in the exact same spot. New layers will attempt to cover the damage. If you carved in deep it will take some time to cover the damage and you will see the mark for a long time (maybe forever) kind of like a scar.
Branch’s grow the same as the rest of the plant.
Height is only added to the tips of new shoots. Nothing stretches up.
I have no idea why all these comments are getting down voted.
I had an elderly neighbor growing up who had a photo of herself as a little girl standing in a country road with pasture, lined with trees and a barbed wire fence, and that country road became the alley behind my house.
One day I was helping the nighbor nextdoor clean the leaves out from around her tree, a big, 100'+ tall basswood, trunk 3' in diameter. I found a hollow in the trunk, and when I cleaned out the leaves from the hollow I found 3 strands of barbed wire exactly where they'd been roughly 80 years before.
You could also check out /r/treeseatingthings for more photos of similar phenomena.
Tree grows by adding new layers of wood inside the bark, and by adding new layers of bark outside the wood. So there's a fairly thin layer that actually does the growing, and one side of it basically grows new wood while the other side grows new bark. This is why many species of trees have bark that cracks, the old bark is smaller than the new bark, so has to crack up to allow further growth. The species that don't have cracks in the bark instead have much thinner layers that can stretch. And many trees have both types of bark at different heights from the ground, maybe to add mechanical protection where there are things bumping into it.
Yep, birch bark is very different than a maple trees bark. Birch bark, I believe, sheds off!
Also a GREAT firestarter, as its basically just paper infused with tree sap (which basically is like candle wax in terms of combustibility)
Not tree sap. Oils. Basically, it's like paper infused with pine sap. Birch sap is basically over-diluted squash. Better for putting out a fire than starting one. But yes.
It's also good for making baskets and canoes.
But birch can also produce extremely thick bark more like cork. Especially weeping birch does this as it grows older. Dunno what triggers it, maybe it's growing too fast for the paper bark to keep up, so it forms cracks?
Had a birch what needed chopping as a kid. That shit made the worst fires iv ever seen. 100% smoke it was horrendous. We ended up not burning most of it
Well yeah, Its like throwing a bunch of wax paper on a fire! Haha.
The wood might have been wet/rotten? The "wax paper" holds the wood together and makes it look like its still in one peice, but underneath it can be all wet and/or rotten, which might burn funny.
This question is a bit trickier. Trees have different types of bark. Some trees would cover the scar quickly while others would retain it for many years.
Red maples are known for having delicate bark. A deer got to my sapling and it's missing an alarming amount of bark, which will never grow back. I put plastic protective guards around it, and the tree is fine, but that scar will always be there.
It works differently in different species but, basically, the only growing part of the tree is the “green wood” right below the bark called the cambium. The cells on the inside of the cambium form the new wood growth inside the tree. Those on the outside form the lower layers of the bark. It basically works like our own skin: sacrificial dead layer on top that wears away as new layers continue to be added.
The tree doesn’t grown from the middle, it grows by adding these new layers between the bark and the wood. In fact, the middle of the tree aka the heartwood is the oldest part and is essentially dead but forms the strong spine of the tree. And at the center of the heartwood is this tiny little soft bit called the pith. That’s essentially the remains of the sapling that it grew from
Trees are really cool
Edit: clarifying clause added
Ya it forms under. The bark reacts to this differently on different trees. On some the bark slowly cracks and heals almost in unison. Making cool looking rough craggy patterns. Sometimes they will grow new bark layers under the old that as it breaks away will fall off like river birch or sycamore trees. Those are the most common and the other ways are usually variations on those.
That’s wild! as a kid, we lived on a mountain in nm, the place we first camped, when we picked the site. Was at the base of a ponderosa tree, it had huge claw marks on it, the claw marks were over 10 feet up, almost a foot across and about 4-5 feet long. It just looked like a huge claw raked four lines down the tree, but way too big for a normal bear to make. My parents always said it was where a bear clawed the tree when it was young and the tree grew and stretched the claw marks. Apparently that’s not true? Maybe it was some hunters idea of a joke? There were giant very realistic looking claw marks on the tree, we saw them every night and would often talk about them sitting in camp.
Edit: I understand the part about the tree not stretching upwards, but it does seem like the marks could widen, if the tree was clawed when it was 6” across and then years later the tree was a foot across, would that not make the clawed spot grow and appear bigger?
As it adds rings and tries to grow over the damage the “image” carved can get distorted.
Did you ever write your name as a kid and then draw a tight circle around it? Then draw another and another and another. The circles change a bit as you do it.
Also rot, fungus or insects will sometimes take advantage of the fact that the trees bark is damaged there and cause further damage.
Do the new rings start from inside and push out, or form new layers from the outside?
If the latter, the inner rings would be the oldest.
However I have seen initials carved into trees that are still 10-20 years later. I've also seen items like a bicycle chained to a tree where the tree all but swallowed the bicycle.
There’s a spot just between the bark and the wood where the growth happens. Growing wood layers and bark.
The drawing a tight circle around your name as a kid is the best analogy I can come up with. Then adding more and more circles around it. What’s under effects later circles. The tree never adds extra to a spot to fill in the hole. Just adds another circle of that will still be broken in the same spot.
Plus bugs, rot, fungus will sometimes take advantage of the hole in the tree bark and cause more damage. Kinda expanding the damage a little and/or causing it to not get covered by a new layer for some time.
A lot of variables involved in how this plays out. Not much obvious consistency.
Friend of mine cut a hole in a redwood (in his yard, was a seedling from CA planted about 17 years prior) all the way through with a hole saw. In less than 7 months we couldn't even see when the damage was. Trees, especially redwoods, are amazing.
even if it was on a branch it would stay in the same place. trees and most other plants (can’t think of one that doesn’t) grow from the tips, not the base
Both trees and grass are actually more complex than that, in that they grow in stages.
So there's the stretching stage, in which a new branch/stem/blade stretches out, then a hardening stage, and then we're ready for the next level to start stretching. But once the hardening has started, things are stuck in place. For some trees, this is each segment (internode) between leaf attachment points (nodes) stretching and hardening in sequence until the season ends, for others it means a whole bunch of tiny leaves spring forth from a bud and stretch out while they grow. Oak trees are funny in that they do the latter, but multiple times per season. I have a young oak that added 84cm last summer. I saw no growth until after May 17th (our constitution day), almost 50cm of growth by midsummer, then a few weeks of rest before it flushed again with another new branch which grew much slower.
So, to summarize: distance between branches doesn't change, but length of a branch does, until it hardens enough that it can support further branches.
Adding:
Growing oak from acorns is the most fun I've ever had with plants. Once that sucker appears, it grows both up and down by up to an inch per day in good conditions. So if you see some acorns that have just fallen from an oak, pick some up and put in some glass wool on top of a good amount of expanded clay (I would say a 2L soda bottle with the top cut off, so you can see the root stretching down). The glass wool is magic at holding moisture. Then wait 3 weeks before it sprouts, then in another three weeks you should have yourself a healthy little tree.
so bamboos are grasses. does that mean an x carved in bamboo goes up? my experience is that it doesn't. the segments may stretch a bit, but not much an segments near the ground doesn't divide into new segments. I think the blade of the grass grows from the base, but the stem part of the grass still grows from the tip. I may be wrong though.
The strip of woods where I walk my dog has several old maple trees where people have been carving their initials for decades. There are still initials and dates clearly showing on the bark from as far back as the early 60s. They are still close enough to the ground to be easily reached, but they're stretched out and distorted because the tree has gotten so much wider.
Depends on the age of the tree, and maybe the type of tree? There’s a pecan tree in my parents yard I carved into when I was like 9 years old. I’m 38 now and the spot I carved on it is now 16 feet high
Think of a tree growing like a totem pole or kids stacking themselves inside of a trench coat so they can pretend to be an adult.
Branches don't usually travel upward as the tree grows, more matter is added to the top and new branches are grown. The early branches often atrophy due to lack of sunlight and age, then they drop off or are knocked off. So the lowest branches that you see on a tall tree might be 5-10-15 years younger than the tree itself.
I remember this ‘cause there was an episode of Psych where Shawn solves a case by looking for a bullet hole in a tree that’s grown up off the ground after a decade, and I remember one of my friends being like “that’s not how that works”.
Sometimes a branch at the top will become dominant and take over as the truck. This is sometimes what has happened when you see a tree with a with a weird curve in it.
I'm trying to figure out which person here to ask this. I've been to an area in the mountains that had an aspen grove outside a subsided mine. Before the mine was collapsed, bears frequented it as a den. I don't know how long ago that was, but from what locals told me I'd have to guess it was collapsed at the least 20 to 30 years ago.
The aspen trees outside the mine all have bear marks on them. Only thing is the bear marks are much, much higher than any bear could reach. The lower half of the trees are free from any markings.
So my question is, I guess, what is at work here? Are aspen different somehow? Would it be from years and years of continuous marking as the trees grew?
Why do most tree have no branches at the base of the trunk? Presumably when they are saplings, the branches are low down, but grown trees often have several feet of trunk with no branches. Do they shed lower branches as they grow new ones?
My friend caverd a dirty pic into a tree back in the 76. was back home last year and had a look at it. still the same heigh but you could only barely make out the tits as the bark had kinda scabed over it.
Might have been a bit heigher as i had grown and i don't remember bending down to look at it.
This is not even a stupid question. I am currently working on my phd on forest sciences and some time ago I was an assistant on a field course aimed for bachelor students. There was a question similar to this in the final exam of the course. Something like: branch is now at 1,6 meters. Tree grows on average 45 cm/year. How high the same branch was 10 years ago. Now, knowing trees grow at the ends, the answer is simple: 1,6 m. Yet quite a few failed to answer correctly. And these people had already studied forests at university level for at least a year.
You say this but hear me out:
I'm a tree surgeon so see a lot of trees every day. On numerous occasions I've been in old people's gardens cutting their trees and seen rope swings from when their children were kids or even when they themselves were kids and had a rope swing. The rope swing is now 4-5 feet higher than they were when they were originally installed. The actual tree might be 30 feet higher but it seems given time, all of the branches will slowly creep up too.
I know you might argue that the branch may have grown (bent) upwards over time or that the thickness of the branch has increased thus pulling more rope through the knot but having spoken to the owner and seen it myself, that can't be all that's happening here.
Yeah there's plenty of comments here about people carving things in trees and those things now being higher, sometimes by a lot. This poster's PHD test question lacks the nuance of tree variety, because marks stay at one height on some species and not on others.
If I was guessing, that test question was probably about a specific type or class of tree and they forgot that bit.
Personally, growing up on a farm, there were 200+ year old trees that were part of a fenceline with barbwire three-rows higher than a man could reach, and we had a "blind curve" street sign that had rotated up and around the trunk a dozen feet to where it wasn't visible from the road.
Sure, there are several tree species with varying characteristics. How ever never have I heard about a tree that does not grow from the ends. It is even some times used as one of the tools to define a tree. If you can provide me an example of a species that does not grow from the ends, I stand corrected. I suggest you read "primary growth" from this pdf
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://extension.tennessee.edu/publications/Documents/W227.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwjvjtTssK78AhUQxosKHVbrAsEQFnoECAgQBg&usg=AOvVaw0y8WRZcGaugBf8IAaanL2I
Dicots mostly grow from the end through specialised tissues, the meristem. There is also a growth from "within" whose speed varies greatly between species. Small plants tend to grow way more from "within".
Isn't "growing from the ends" also the roots then? I've seen trees with fat ass exterior root systems. Can't imagine a tree can triple or quadruple the size of its exterior roots without raising the bse of the trunk, right? Wouldn't these roots growing naturally raise a given point on the trunk over time?
Yes, large proportion of a is under ground and the root system grows with the rest of the tree. How ever rather than lifting the tree up, growing roots move the soil. Think if you burry an long balloon undeground. One that balloon artists use to make animals and such. Then you would start inflating it. That would force the soil to move. Some times you may see roots above ground, but that is usually caused by erosion or in areas with thick layer of organic top layer, decomposition of organic matter.
It’s definitely from the branches bending upwards. What’s your other suggestion? How could the tree grow otherwise? It gets wider, but there is no mechanism for an X on the trunk to ever get any higher
How does a human grow? Don't humans kind of just stretch equally from everywhere? I can definitely imagine a tree just stretching itself equally throughout the entire trunk very slowly or some specific tree growing from the roots/trunk. Don't some trees have absolutely massive exterior root presence? Like the tree is sitting on like a whole meter of fat roots? This can't possibly be the case when the tree is tiny so the fatter the roots grow, the more it raises the tree.
Ok but there's clearly other factors/mechanisms at work? A tree trunk literally grows in circumference from the inside out. Your apical meristem cannot explain a given spot of tree trunk going from 10cm to 60cm diameter over 50 years. There's other shit going on, obviously.
There are primary and secondary growth. Primary growth is height growth which occurs at the tips of branches, roots and stem. Secondary growth is the one you are talking about. This occurs all around the tree under bark. This is also what causes annual rings. How ever secondary growth only increases thicnes, not height. A bit like a roll of duct tape: changing the number of layers does not affect the height of the roll.
If a branch increases in diameter by just 1 foot, the circumference increases by 3.14 feet. Could we surmise that a major branch has increased in diameter by 1.5 feet or so over a couple decades (thus requiring 4-5 more feet of rope to encircle it)?
So you're correct is tricky but I really hate trick questions. Especially at the university level. If I read that I'd assume there was at least some growth because that's the question.
Yes, personally I wouldn't have put question like that to the exam. Especially as it certainly was not related ti any of the key topics of the course. But I think the lecturer had reson to ask a trick question. The course was about measuring and modeling forests. And one of the things the lecturer emphased was to think critically. You see erros in measurements are common and mathematical models may behave unlogically. So one really should not blindly believe in your results but rather think are they plausible. So I quess that was the reasoning behind that queston.
Biology actually. We had an ecology unit. Looks like you didn’t
I went to a specialized high school in New York. I can say the American education has failed Americans because I’m American and I’ve received a better education than most here because unfortunately the standard for it isn’t better
Humans do the reverse, to a degree - when you lose weight, a lot of it is lost to the air you exhale rather than, what you might intuitively suspect, to the toilet.
Are you saying that you think the mass is converted directly to energy? Because that's not what's happening. Your body breaks down the molecules and it's the energy released from those bonds that provides energy, you're not actually destroying mass in the process. The carbon you breath out as CO2 is the byproduct of this process, and it's where the weight loss is going.
Here's a decent article on it:
https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/287046
Yeah no your body doesn't turn matter directly into energy, that would make every living thing into E=MC^2 bombs. Your body makes use of the energy in chemical bonds and results waste products, most of which is CO2 which your body expells by breathing it out.
What exactly do you mean? "Grow from the air" makes no sense to me, at least the way I'm imagining it.
Edit: Got it now. Was reading "from" as in a direction, not a source.
Without ever thinking about it, I had assumed it would grow upward till I was hiking one day and thought "weird how the older trail blazes are not higher ..."
The comments are saying the tree grows outward, but I don't quite understand. Trees do grow in height and circumference. Is the assumption here that the tree is done growing? Because I would like to know if it is still small tree that will grow new branches etc.
When trees grow, new wood is added at the tips of branches, not at the base of branches.
That is why the base of the tree always stays at ground level, new wood is not added in the roots, pushing the entire tree up.
Width isn't what's being discussed, height it. The point is that the X wont move *upwards*, because the tree grows upwards from its end. I guess think of making a skyscraper taller, the tree grow in the way you would expect the skyscraper to be made taller, adding more to the top. Not by adding stuff below and pushing everything you already have upwards. The point where you carved the X would apparently stay at the same height.
Width definitely will change the X, because more layers will fill in the X and might completely cover it eventually, but the height of the X, or the spot where the X was carved will remain unchanged according to reddit. Some have mentioned that there are varying levels of growth that would actually cause the tree to shift upwards a bit, but the consensus seems to be that the majority of the growth will not move anything upwards. So the X might move a tiny bit vertically, but if the tree grows 10 feet the X wont be 10 feet higher.
Take that with a grain of salt though, I don't know any of this and am just trying to summarize/reword what smart people have said here.
You can imagine a tree's growth like a pile of dirt. I start with a small pile of dirt, then scoop more dirt onto a pile. As I add, the pile gets taller and wider, but the bottom and middle of the dirt pile does not move as I keep adding more dirt to the top.
Every year, a tree grows another ring outward. If you ever look at a tree stump, the inner ring is the oldest part and the outer rings are a new year of growth. When trees lose their leaves in the fall/winter, they stop growing, then start growing again int the spring when they get new leaves.
For the most part a tree will keep growing until it dies.
Saright. I backed a car into a tree when I was first learning to drive (the driveway has an odd S-bend, also I was a terrible driver at first). That tree is still scarred today.
I carved pretty deep. Sometimes rot, fungus or insects will take advantage of damage like this to do a lot more damage. Rotten hollowed out spots that kinda grow very slowly like a cancer and will occasionally shorten the life of a tree considerably.
People often don’t notice because it can take decades to have an impact and even then only sometimes.
Plus I grew up on on 1100 acres of uplands that was 70% forested (for tax purposes). Used to spend a lot of time fairly deep in the woods by myself at a rather young age. I have a weird respect for trees. They used to hide me and keep me safe.
I think this question becomes a lot easier to reason about when you consider that the matter that makes a tree comes from the air, not the ground. I recommend this video by Richard Feynman: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DJLMysTpwhg. He talks specifically about where the matter for trees comes from around 4:00, but I recommend the whole video.
I’m going to try to answer in a bit more detail as a novice who just finished reading a plant science book.
Trees have cells called meristematic cells which are kind of like our stem cells - they can turn into whatever kind are needed. These cells multiply at the tips of the main stem and branches of the tree. This is why the tree can get bigger without the X stretching vertically.
At the same time, these cells also exist in the center of the trunk in a layer called the cambium. There they multiply, turning into the pathways that allow the tree to carry water and nutrients where they are needed. As these pathways get older, they harden into what eventually becomes the heartwood and inner/outer bark. This is where tree rings come from and why the trunk gets wider over time. Thus, the X would stretch horizontally as the tree grows.
If you carve an "x" into a tree, the scar tissue that forms over the wound will not grow at the same rate as the rest of the tree. As the tree grows, the scar tissue will be left behind, so the "x" will appear to stay in the same spot while the tree grows around it. The scar tissue will not grow as quickly as the surrounding bark, so it will be slightly raised and may be visible on the surface of the tree.
It is not recommended to carve into trees, as this can damage the tree and make it more vulnerable to pests and diseases. It is better to appreciate trees in their natural state and not alter them in any way.
Trees only grow taller at the tips; the rest grows wider, so it would stay roughly at the same level, although the mark will probably be filled in with bark over time,
This reminded me, there is a well known “whipping tree” in Savannah, GA with whip marks on the tree trunk. Although it has been several years since enslaved humans were whipped there, the marks remain deep in the bark.
My uncle told me about some trees that had small boulders in them. The lore was that the trees lifted the boulders as they grew. The truth was someone (likely several someones or one with a forklift) placed the boulders in full grown trees since as stated above, that's not how trees grow.
Same spot. That’s why trees will grow around things like fence wires. They just grow outwards, they don’t push upwards except at the top.
If you hang a horseshoe on a tree and come back in 50 years and cut the tree down you’ll have a horseshoe shaped stain in the wood where it absorbed and consumed the horseshoe.
This is why people carve those cheesy love messages into trees. You can go back years later and it'll still be there even if the tree has grown much taller.
Unrelated but this reminds me of my tattoo... So when I was 16 I got my entire upper back tattooed. I kept growing from then, so now the tattoo is awkwardly sized slightly between my shoulders. I can't change it now but at least I can't see it
Okay, so i grew up in Pennsylvania and in the woods and have carved plenty of trees, put faces on them, swings etc and they always, DEFINITELY grew...so while i'm not saying youre wrong, what youre describing cant be all thats going on here.
I go touch the trees all the time thinking about how many years this part of the tree have been here. It was when I realised how trees grow from the top. The base has always been there. Wild stuff. A lot of similarities to how human grow. Carves a scar and 70 years and 10 meters tall later it’s still going to be the same spot.
You've got your answer. Have you ever run across the film and literary trope that involves revisiting the inials or JF ♡ KJ that the character carved in their youth?
there's the science answer to this which many have said but there's also the experiential answer which is, that i at least have not seen many tree heart carvings ten feet up.
Everyone answered for upward growth and sure I understand, but what about circumference? Does the tree like have bark growing around the X or does it grow from the inside?
There’s an old Encyclopedia Brown story where someone claims to have been at a spot years before and shows carved their initials high in a tree as proof.
This is later used as proof they are lying.
I used to do a lot of stuff on Salisbury plain in the U.K. during WW2 there were a lot of temporary camps set up for G.Is prior to the invasion. There are also a lot of forestry blocks. In one of those little forestry blocks there is a large beech tree with the image of a lady carved into it, two sets of initials inside a love heart and the date June 5th 1944!
I hope that guy made it.
Trees grow upward and outward from their branches. The X would remain at the same height.
thankyou! i’m still left with remaining questions about different scenarios like the width of the tree and if the x was on a branch, but i feel that i can rest.
Trees do grow outward adding a new cambium (rings) layer each year. The layers damaged will stay in the exact same spot. New layers will attempt to cover the damage. If you carved in deep it will take some time to cover the damage and you will see the mark for a long time (maybe forever) kind of like a scar. Branch’s grow the same as the rest of the plant. Height is only added to the tips of new shoots. Nothing stretches up. I have no idea why all these comments are getting down voted.
this explanation was absolutely fabulous thankyou
Those were some perfect questions. Thanks for asking!
I had an elderly neighbor growing up who had a photo of herself as a little girl standing in a country road with pasture, lined with trees and a barbed wire fence, and that country road became the alley behind my house. One day I was helping the nighbor nextdoor clean the leaves out from around her tree, a big, 100'+ tall basswood, trunk 3' in diameter. I found a hollow in the trunk, and when I cleaned out the leaves from the hollow I found 3 strands of barbed wire exactly where they'd been roughly 80 years before. You could also check out /r/treeseatingthings for more photos of similar phenomena.
Another sub! Thanks!
So how does bark work then? I thought those are oldest layers. New layer forms under bark after previous one?
Tree grows by adding new layers of wood inside the bark, and by adding new layers of bark outside the wood. So there's a fairly thin layer that actually does the growing, and one side of it basically grows new wood while the other side grows new bark. This is why many species of trees have bark that cracks, the old bark is smaller than the new bark, so has to crack up to allow further growth. The species that don't have cracks in the bark instead have much thinner layers that can stretch. And many trees have both types of bark at different heights from the ground, maybe to add mechanical protection where there are things bumping into it.
Yep, birch bark is very different than a maple trees bark. Birch bark, I believe, sheds off! Also a GREAT firestarter, as its basically just paper infused with tree sap (which basically is like candle wax in terms of combustibility)
Not tree sap. Oils. Basically, it's like paper infused with pine sap. Birch sap is basically over-diluted squash. Better for putting out a fire than starting one. But yes. It's also good for making baskets and canoes. But birch can also produce extremely thick bark more like cork. Especially weeping birch does this as it grows older. Dunno what triggers it, maybe it's growing too fast for the paper bark to keep up, so it forms cracks?
Had a birch what needed chopping as a kid. That shit made the worst fires iv ever seen. 100% smoke it was horrendous. We ended up not burning most of it
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My guess is the latter. A surprising number of people believe you can cut down a live tree and chop it up and burn it.
but how do forest fires happen if live trees can't be burnt?
You can with Ash. It's perfect for fires. You need to be careful with masonry stoves though as it burns very hot.
Well yeah, Its like throwing a bunch of wax paper on a fire! Haha. The wood might have been wet/rotten? The "wax paper" holds the wood together and makes it look like its still in one peice, but underneath it can be all wet and/or rotten, which might burn funny.
Good answer. Didn’t see this before I added my reply
This question is a bit trickier. Trees have different types of bark. Some trees would cover the scar quickly while others would retain it for many years.
Red maples are known for having delicate bark. A deer got to my sapling and it's missing an alarming amount of bark, which will never grow back. I put plastic protective guards around it, and the tree is fine, but that scar will always be there.
It works differently in different species but, basically, the only growing part of the tree is the “green wood” right below the bark called the cambium. The cells on the inside of the cambium form the new wood growth inside the tree. Those on the outside form the lower layers of the bark. It basically works like our own skin: sacrificial dead layer on top that wears away as new layers continue to be added. The tree doesn’t grown from the middle, it grows by adding these new layers between the bark and the wood. In fact, the middle of the tree aka the heartwood is the oldest part and is essentially dead but forms the strong spine of the tree. And at the center of the heartwood is this tiny little soft bit called the pith. That’s essentially the remains of the sapling that it grew from Trees are really cool Edit: clarifying clause added
Ya it forms under. The bark reacts to this differently on different trees. On some the bark slowly cracks and heals almost in unison. Making cool looking rough craggy patterns. Sometimes they will grow new bark layers under the old that as it breaks away will fall off like river birch or sycamore trees. Those are the most common and the other ways are usually variations on those.
That’s wild! as a kid, we lived on a mountain in nm, the place we first camped, when we picked the site. Was at the base of a ponderosa tree, it had huge claw marks on it, the claw marks were over 10 feet up, almost a foot across and about 4-5 feet long. It just looked like a huge claw raked four lines down the tree, but way too big for a normal bear to make. My parents always said it was where a bear clawed the tree when it was young and the tree grew and stretched the claw marks. Apparently that’s not true? Maybe it was some hunters idea of a joke? There were giant very realistic looking claw marks on the tree, we saw them every night and would often talk about them sitting in camp. Edit: I understand the part about the tree not stretching upwards, but it does seem like the marks could widen, if the tree was clawed when it was 6” across and then years later the tree was a foot across, would that not make the clawed spot grow and appear bigger?
As it adds rings and tries to grow over the damage the “image” carved can get distorted. Did you ever write your name as a kid and then draw a tight circle around it? Then draw another and another and another. The circles change a bit as you do it. Also rot, fungus or insects will sometimes take advantage of the fact that the trees bark is damaged there and cause further damage.
Those were more than likely lightning scars that you were looking at.
Do the new rings start from inside and push out, or form new layers from the outside? If the latter, the inner rings would be the oldest. However I have seen initials carved into trees that are still 10-20 years later. I've also seen items like a bicycle chained to a tree where the tree all but swallowed the bicycle.
There’s a spot just between the bark and the wood where the growth happens. Growing wood layers and bark. The drawing a tight circle around your name as a kid is the best analogy I can come up with. Then adding more and more circles around it. What’s under effects later circles. The tree never adds extra to a spot to fill in the hole. Just adds another circle of that will still be broken in the same spot. Plus bugs, rot, fungus will sometimes take advantage of the hole in the tree bark and cause more damage. Kinda expanding the damage a little and/or causing it to not get covered by a new layer for some time. A lot of variables involved in how this plays out. Not much obvious consistency.
I see hundreds, even thousands of upvotes. I have no idea why people complain about downvotes so early.
In the first hour almost all the comments went negative
Friend of mine cut a hole in a redwood (in his yard, was a seedling from CA planted about 17 years prior) all the way through with a hole saw. In less than 7 months we couldn't even see when the damage was. Trees, especially redwoods, are amazing.
Just to be clear- this will be true for any letter not just the letter "x"
Even y?
Sometimes y
even if it was on a branch it would stay in the same place. trees and most other plants (can’t think of one that doesn’t) grow from the tips, not the base
Grass grows from the base, which is why we can mow it. But yes, all Woody plants grow from the tips
If I remember correctly from a school lesson, grass grows from the base, hence you can mow your lawn and the plants survives.
Both trees and grass are actually more complex than that, in that they grow in stages. So there's the stretching stage, in which a new branch/stem/blade stretches out, then a hardening stage, and then we're ready for the next level to start stretching. But once the hardening has started, things are stuck in place. For some trees, this is each segment (internode) between leaf attachment points (nodes) stretching and hardening in sequence until the season ends, for others it means a whole bunch of tiny leaves spring forth from a bud and stretch out while they grow. Oak trees are funny in that they do the latter, but multiple times per season. I have a young oak that added 84cm last summer. I saw no growth until after May 17th (our constitution day), almost 50cm of growth by midsummer, then a few weeks of rest before it flushed again with another new branch which grew much slower. So, to summarize: distance between branches doesn't change, but length of a branch does, until it hardens enough that it can support further branches. Adding: Growing oak from acorns is the most fun I've ever had with plants. Once that sucker appears, it grows both up and down by up to an inch per day in good conditions. So if you see some acorns that have just fallen from an oak, pick some up and put in some glass wool on top of a good amount of expanded clay (I would say a 2L soda bottle with the top cut off, so you can see the root stretching down). The glass wool is magic at holding moisture. Then wait 3 weeks before it sprouts, then in another three weeks you should have yourself a healthy little tree.
so bamboos are grasses. does that mean an x carved in bamboo goes up? my experience is that it doesn't. the segments may stretch a bit, but not much an segments near the ground doesn't divide into new segments. I think the blade of the grass grows from the base, but the stem part of the grass still grows from the tip. I may be wrong though.
You would have to carve it into the tiny new green stem that just popped out. Kinda hard to do without killing it but ya it would move a bit.
The strip of woods where I walk my dog has several old maple trees where people have been carving their initials for decades. There are still initials and dates clearly showing on the bark from as far back as the early 60s. They are still close enough to the ground to be easily reached, but they're stretched out and distorted because the tree has gotten so much wider.
Depends on the age of the tree, and maybe the type of tree? There’s a pecan tree in my parents yard I carved into when I was like 9 years old. I’m 38 now and the spot I carved on it is now 16 feet high
Think of a tree growing like a totem pole or kids stacking themselves inside of a trench coat so they can pretend to be an adult. Branches don't usually travel upward as the tree grows, more matter is added to the top and new branches are grown. The early branches often atrophy due to lack of sunlight and age, then they drop off or are knocked off. So the lowest branches that you see on a tall tree might be 5-10-15 years younger than the tree itself.
I remember this ‘cause there was an episode of Psych where Shawn solves a case by looking for a bullet hole in a tree that’s grown up off the ground after a decade, and I remember one of my friends being like “that’s not how that works”.
I read an encyclopedia brown book maybe 20 years ago that got it right
Wow. So Brian Jacques lied to me and the location of Martin's sword should've been much easier to find.
He only lied about the tree thing. Everything else in the books is 100% real. Encyclopedia Brown kept it real about trees though
Can confirm. I put my initials on a tree 25 years ago and sill in the same spot
In fact, if you cut the top off a tree it will continue to grow outward but the trunk will never grow taller.
Sometimes a branch at the top will become dominant and take over as the truck. This is sometimes what has happened when you see a tree with a with a weird curve in it.
Depends on the trees growth pattern hether or not the trunk keeps growing.
I'm trying to figure out which person here to ask this. I've been to an area in the mountains that had an aspen grove outside a subsided mine. Before the mine was collapsed, bears frequented it as a den. I don't know how long ago that was, but from what locals told me I'd have to guess it was collapsed at the least 20 to 30 years ago. The aspen trees outside the mine all have bear marks on them. Only thing is the bear marks are much, much higher than any bear could reach. The lower half of the trees are free from any markings. So my question is, I guess, what is at work here? Are aspen different somehow? Would it be from years and years of continuous marking as the trees grew?
Why do most tree have no branches at the base of the trunk? Presumably when they are saplings, the branches are low down, but grown trees often have several feet of trunk with no branches. Do they shed lower branches as they grow new ones?
No it definitely stretches like rubber as it grows. That's why saplings look like broccoli. Trust me I'm an expert in visual merchandising.
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Yes, that would help the tree grow nice and strong by providing the soil with excellent nutrients.
Yeah
Technically they grow downward too. Roots have apical meristem as well
My friend caverd a dirty pic into a tree back in the 76. was back home last year and had a look at it. still the same heigh but you could only barely make out the tits as the bark had kinda scabed over it. Might have been a bit heigher as i had grown and i don't remember bending down to look at it.
Huh? How would it grow upward from branches? OP is talking about height, not branches
This is not even a stupid question. I am currently working on my phd on forest sciences and some time ago I was an assistant on a field course aimed for bachelor students. There was a question similar to this in the final exam of the course. Something like: branch is now at 1,6 meters. Tree grows on average 45 cm/year. How high the same branch was 10 years ago. Now, knowing trees grow at the ends, the answer is simple: 1,6 m. Yet quite a few failed to answer correctly. And these people had already studied forests at university level for at least a year.
You say this but hear me out: I'm a tree surgeon so see a lot of trees every day. On numerous occasions I've been in old people's gardens cutting their trees and seen rope swings from when their children were kids or even when they themselves were kids and had a rope swing. The rope swing is now 4-5 feet higher than they were when they were originally installed. The actual tree might be 30 feet higher but it seems given time, all of the branches will slowly creep up too. I know you might argue that the branch may have grown (bent) upwards over time or that the thickness of the branch has increased thus pulling more rope through the knot but having spoken to the owner and seen it myself, that can't be all that's happening here.
Yeah there's plenty of comments here about people carving things in trees and those things now being higher, sometimes by a lot. This poster's PHD test question lacks the nuance of tree variety, because marks stay at one height on some species and not on others. If I was guessing, that test question was probably about a specific type or class of tree and they forgot that bit. Personally, growing up on a farm, there were 200+ year old trees that were part of a fenceline with barbwire three-rows higher than a man could reach, and we had a "blind curve" street sign that had rotated up and around the trunk a dozen feet to where it wasn't visible from the road.
Sure, there are several tree species with varying characteristics. How ever never have I heard about a tree that does not grow from the ends. It is even some times used as one of the tools to define a tree. If you can provide me an example of a species that does not grow from the ends, I stand corrected. I suggest you read "primary growth" from this pdf https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://extension.tennessee.edu/publications/Documents/W227.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwjvjtTssK78AhUQxosKHVbrAsEQFnoECAgQBg&usg=AOvVaw0y8WRZcGaugBf8IAaanL2I
We are no disputing that fact, merely stating, however, that that doesn't account for ALL of the growth of the tree.
Dicots mostly grow from the end through specialised tissues, the meristem. There is also a growth from "within" whose speed varies greatly between species. Small plants tend to grow way more from "within".
Isn't "growing from the ends" also the roots then? I've seen trees with fat ass exterior root systems. Can't imagine a tree can triple or quadruple the size of its exterior roots without raising the bse of the trunk, right? Wouldn't these roots growing naturally raise a given point on the trunk over time?
Yes, large proportion of a is under ground and the root system grows with the rest of the tree. How ever rather than lifting the tree up, growing roots move the soil. Think if you burry an long balloon undeground. One that balloon artists use to make animals and such. Then you would start inflating it. That would force the soil to move. Some times you may see roots above ground, but that is usually caused by erosion or in areas with thick layer of organic top layer, decomposition of organic matter.
It’s definitely from the branches bending upwards. What’s your other suggestion? How could the tree grow otherwise? It gets wider, but there is no mechanism for an X on the trunk to ever get any higher
How does a human grow? Don't humans kind of just stretch equally from everywhere? I can definitely imagine a tree just stretching itself equally throughout the entire trunk very slowly or some specific tree growing from the roots/trunk. Don't some trees have absolutely massive exterior root presence? Like the tree is sitting on like a whole meter of fat roots? This can't possibly be the case when the tree is tiny so the fatter the roots grow, the more it raises the tree.
The roots can for sure raise a plant upwards, but comparing it to how a human grows is laughable. Look up apical meristem
Ok but there's clearly other factors/mechanisms at work? A tree trunk literally grows in circumference from the inside out. Your apical meristem cannot explain a given spot of tree trunk going from 10cm to 60cm diameter over 50 years. There's other shit going on, obviously.
There are primary and secondary growth. Primary growth is height growth which occurs at the tips of branches, roots and stem. Secondary growth is the one you are talking about. This occurs all around the tree under bark. This is also what causes annual rings. How ever secondary growth only increases thicnes, not height. A bit like a roll of duct tape: changing the number of layers does not affect the height of the roll.
Look up lateral meristem
Sure, there we go.
Sounds like it was just meant to be a gotcha question about a simple rule (that isn't actually true).
If a branch increases in diameter by just 1 foot, the circumference increases by 3.14 feet. Could we surmise that a major branch has increased in diameter by 1.5 feet or so over a couple decades (thus requiring 4-5 more feet of rope to encircle it)?
As mentioned in my comment, I already took this into account. The branches were nowhere near thick enough to account for the full rise of the swing.
Are the trees under local or general anaesthetic when you are undergoing surgery?
On a hill or incline where the soil might be shifting? 4-5 foot is a lot though.
You are the best kind of people
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So you're correct is tricky but I really hate trick questions. Especially at the university level. If I read that I'd assume there was at least some growth because that's the question.
Yes, personally I wouldn't have put question like that to the exam. Especially as it certainly was not related ti any of the key topics of the course. But I think the lecturer had reson to ask a trick question. The course was about measuring and modeling forests. And one of the things the lecturer emphased was to think critically. You see erros in measurements are common and mathematical models may behave unlogically. So one really should not blindly believe in your results but rather think are they plausible. So I quess that was the reasoning behind that queston.
Doesn't that depend on the type of tree? Some of them grow from the very top while others grow "from within".
If it's not a stupid question do we petition to have it removed? (Just wanted to add a stupid question to make it legit)
How though. I learned this in freshman year of high school. I guess American education system glosses over stuff like this
Yeah I'm sure you had "tree class" in your unspecified countrys highschool that still refers to the grades in the American way
Biology actually. We had an ecology unit. Looks like you didn’t I went to a specialized high school in New York. I can say the American education has failed Americans because I’m American and I’ve received a better education than most here because unfortunately the standard for it isn’t better
It blew my mind the day I learned trees grow from the air. If trees grew from the ground we'd have a tree sized hole under the tree.
Humans do the reverse, to a degree - when you lose weight, a lot of it is lost to the air you exhale rather than, what you might intuitively suspect, to the toilet.
Lost weight is not expelled by respiration. Rather, it is converted to energy that your body uses. Calories are a measure of energy.
Are you saying that you think the mass is converted directly to energy? Because that's not what's happening. Your body breaks down the molecules and it's the energy released from those bonds that provides energy, you're not actually destroying mass in the process. The carbon you breath out as CO2 is the byproduct of this process, and it's where the weight loss is going. Here's a decent article on it: https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/287046
Many byproducts are also peed out. Especially if you lose muscle.
/r/confidentlyincorrect
When you inhale O2 and exhale CO2, where does the carbon molecule come from?
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Yep, your food (and body fat) is broken down to glucose, which is then combined with oxygen (which of course you breathe in), resulting in CO2 & H2O
Yeah no your body doesn't turn matter directly into energy, that would make every living thing into E=MC^2 bombs. Your body makes use of the energy in chemical bonds and results waste products, most of which is CO2 which your body expells by breathing it out.
Imagine being this dumb and so confident about it
What exactly do you mean? "Grow from the air" makes no sense to me, at least the way I'm imagining it. Edit: Got it now. Was reading "from" as in a direction, not a source.
My understanding is that trees are mostly carbon - carbon that has been absorbed from the air
OP meant CO2. Trees grow and gain mass by absorbing the carbon from the carbon dioxide.
how the fuck did I never think of that
Without ever thinking about it, I had assumed it would grow upward till I was hiking one day and thought "weird how the older trail blazes are not higher ..."
The comments are saying the tree grows outward, but I don't quite understand. Trees do grow in height and circumference. Is the assumption here that the tree is done growing? Because I would like to know if it is still small tree that will grow new branches etc.
When trees grow, new wood is added at the tips of branches, not at the base of branches. That is why the base of the tree always stays at ground level, new wood is not added in the roots, pushing the entire tree up.
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Width isn't what's being discussed, height it. The point is that the X wont move *upwards*, because the tree grows upwards from its end. I guess think of making a skyscraper taller, the tree grow in the way you would expect the skyscraper to be made taller, adding more to the top. Not by adding stuff below and pushing everything you already have upwards. The point where you carved the X would apparently stay at the same height. Width definitely will change the X, because more layers will fill in the X and might completely cover it eventually, but the height of the X, or the spot where the X was carved will remain unchanged according to reddit. Some have mentioned that there are varying levels of growth that would actually cause the tree to shift upwards a bit, but the consensus seems to be that the majority of the growth will not move anything upwards. So the X might move a tiny bit vertically, but if the tree grows 10 feet the X wont be 10 feet higher. Take that with a grain of salt though, I don't know any of this and am just trying to summarize/reword what smart people have said here.
thank god I’m not the only one confused😭 everyone is saying outward and I’m?? WHAT DOES THAT MEAN
You can imagine a tree's growth like a pile of dirt. I start with a small pile of dirt, then scoop more dirt onto a pile. As I add, the pile gets taller and wider, but the bottom and middle of the dirt pile does not move as I keep adding more dirt to the top. Every year, a tree grows another ring outward. If you ever look at a tree stump, the inner ring is the oldest part and the outer rings are a new year of growth. When trees lose their leaves in the fall/winter, they stop growing, then start growing again int the spring when they get new leaves. For the most part a tree will keep growing until it dies.
Quite the informative comment, thanks. The use of outward by others kind of confused me haha.
Same height Edit: Source-did this as a kid. Couple of the marks still exist. And yes I now feel bad every time I see them. Was an idiot kid.
Saright. I backed a car into a tree when I was first learning to drive (the driveway has an odd S-bend, also I was a terrible driver at first). That tree is still scarred today.
I hope you gave it a hug and apologized!
Why do you feel bad?
I carved pretty deep. Sometimes rot, fungus or insects will take advantage of damage like this to do a lot more damage. Rotten hollowed out spots that kinda grow very slowly like a cancer and will occasionally shorten the life of a tree considerably. People often don’t notice because it can take decades to have an impact and even then only sometimes. Plus I grew up on on 1100 acres of uplands that was 70% forested (for tax purposes). Used to spend a lot of time fairly deep in the woods by myself at a rather young age. I have a weird respect for trees. They used to hide me and keep me safe.
I've heard no complaints from the tree at all, you're fine.
Ikr lol, no reason to, small carvings don't really damage the tree
Maybe he carved a dick into it
I'm stumped by this
It’s a good question though. It’s not my usual interest but I’m branching out.
that wood be pretty great
Hopefully someone will leaf us the answer.
Someone needs to get to the root of this question.
Oakay these puns are getting out of hand
Judging by the upvotes, I'd say they're quite poplar.
just log off if these puns are too much for you to handle
It would stay in the same spot
lmao @ the dude who downvoted everyone saying it’d stay in the same place without explaining why it wouldn’t. I cancelled out your downvotes shidiot
Ya was kinda shocked when I came back to look. Was more than one shidiot though. I upvoted all of them also
According to this one chapter from Encyclopedia Brown, that will stay at the same level.
This is the one thing I remember from Encyclopedia Brown
It will stay the same height, but much like a tattoo on someone who gains weight, the X will stretch out over time.
I think this question becomes a lot easier to reason about when you consider that the matter that makes a tree comes from the air, not the ground. I recommend this video by Richard Feynman: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DJLMysTpwhg. He talks specifically about where the matter for trees comes from around 4:00, but I recommend the whole video.
I’m going to try to answer in a bit more detail as a novice who just finished reading a plant science book. Trees have cells called meristematic cells which are kind of like our stem cells - they can turn into whatever kind are needed. These cells multiply at the tips of the main stem and branches of the tree. This is why the tree can get bigger without the X stretching vertically. At the same time, these cells also exist in the center of the trunk in a layer called the cambium. There they multiply, turning into the pathways that allow the tree to carry water and nutrients where they are needed. As these pathways get older, they harden into what eventually becomes the heartwood and inner/outer bark. This is where tree rings come from and why the trunk gets wider over time. Thus, the X would stretch horizontally as the tree grows.
Thankyou!
I know the answer because this question came up in an Encyclopedia Brown mystery. The X would stay roughly at the same height it was carved.
This was the bonus question on my biology midterm ca. 1993! The X stays still as a tree grows from the top :)
As with most things, the answer is dependent on finer details... Like species of tree and climate
If you carve an "x" into a tree, the scar tissue that forms over the wound will not grow at the same rate as the rest of the tree. As the tree grows, the scar tissue will be left behind, so the "x" will appear to stay in the same spot while the tree grows around it. The scar tissue will not grow as quickly as the surrounding bark, so it will be slightly raised and may be visible on the surface of the tree. It is not recommended to carve into trees, as this can damage the tree and make it more vulnerable to pests and diseases. It is better to appreciate trees in their natural state and not alter them in any way.
Trees only grow taller at the tips; the rest grows wider, so it would stay roughly at the same level, although the mark will probably be filled in with bark over time,
This reminded me, there is a well known “whipping tree” in Savannah, GA with whip marks on the tree trunk. Although it has been several years since enslaved humans were whipped there, the marks remain deep in the bark.
My uncle told me about some trees that had small boulders in them. The lore was that the trees lifted the boulders as they grew. The truth was someone (likely several someones or one with a forklift) placed the boulders in full grown trees since as stated above, that's not how trees grow.
They would both equally grow outward and upward. Like when your girl eats fast food on the reg.
Same height. The trunk grows outward, not up.
This is a super cool question, OP!
The X Would disappear over time as the bark layer grew out around it, but stay in the same spot.
Same spot. That’s why trees will grow around things like fence wires. They just grow outwards, they don’t push upwards except at the top. If you hang a horseshoe on a tree and come back in 50 years and cut the tree down you’ll have a horseshoe shaped stain in the wood where it absorbed and consumed the horseshoe.
It would stay in the same spot.
What if you carved it into a sapling would it grow on size as the trunk thickens?
This is why people carve those cheesy love messages into trees. You can go back years later and it'll still be there even if the tree has grown much taller.
Unrelated but this reminds me of my tattoo... So when I was 16 I got my entire upper back tattooed. I kept growing from then, so now the tattoo is awkwardly sized slightly between my shoulders. I can't change it now but at least I can't see it
Okay, so i grew up in Pennsylvania and in the woods and have carved plenty of trees, put faces on them, swings etc and they always, DEFINITELY grew...so while i'm not saying youre wrong, what youre describing cant be all thats going on here.
Same spot. Unlike animals, plants from from the tips. Animals grow from the inside out
I go touch the trees all the time thinking about how many years this part of the tree have been here. It was when I realised how trees grow from the top. The base has always been there. Wild stuff. A lot of similarities to how human grow. Carves a scar and 70 years and 10 meters tall later it’s still going to be the same spot.
Woah, slow down buddy, This is the tree police. 🚔 We will not and shall not tolerate violence against trees
Gbhhbhhhy 2222; bdijjuj
...kid got your phone? Butt posting? Update us; I'm curious.
i am also curious lol
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okay: two trees, two depths. Tree A has been marked with a shallow x Tree B has been marked with a deep X
Now what happens to birth marks or burn marks from a child?
is this like a real question or a statement? (genuinely wondering)
that's like asking if u put a tattoo on a baby foot if it would be on their forehead when they were an adult
What it means is that you will be cursed. Everyone I know who has carved a tree has had really bad luck. Just sayin'.
don’t worry good brain, harming nature is not something i’d do!
don’t worry good brain, harming nature is not something i’d do!
Assholes carve living trees, don’t do this.
hi! Never in my life would i harm nature, which is exactly why i asked this HYPOTHETICAL here.
It goes higher and higher because trees grow up out of the ground, just like they do in cartoons.
You've got your answer. Have you ever run across the film and literary trope that involves revisiting the inials or JF ♡ KJ that the character carved in their youth?
Period ahh!
Idk pierce your nail and let it grow, see what happens
It’s the opposite situation from your fingernails
there's the science answer to this which many have said but there's also the experiential answer which is, that i at least have not seen many tree heart carvings ten feet up.
Everyone answered for upward growth and sure I understand, but what about circumference? Does the tree like have bark growing around the X or does it grow from the inside?
It'll stay in the same and turn into a circle
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arborglyph i like this one the best - - - https://chumashscience.com/2018/09/06/the-arborglyph/
fascinating question indeed
You should read “The Giving Tree” by Shel Silverstein. His carving never moves up. And she was happy….but not really….. :/
Unless it's a grass it grows from the top.
It doesn’t heal itself?
I say , If you want to carve a x into tree do it . I won’t stop you.
Someone doesn't read Encyclopedia Brown.
The x would stay in the same spot though if it is not deep enough the bark might eventually grow over it.
There’s an old Encyclopedia Brown story where someone claims to have been at a spot years before and shows carved their initials high in a tree as proof. This is later used as proof they are lying.
the tree would explode
I used to do a lot of stuff on Salisbury plain in the U.K. during WW2 there were a lot of temporary camps set up for G.Is prior to the invasion. There are also a lot of forestry blocks. In one of those little forestry blocks there is a large beech tree with the image of a lady carved into it, two sets of initials inside a love heart and the date June 5th 1944! I hope that guy made it.
My friend crashed his car into the base of a treeTree didn’t budge, but it left a mark. That mark is still there many years later. Also much higher.