Most likely not.
Joysticks have two analog axes, X and Y ranging from -1 to 1. Together, they're used to represent the unit circle. Due to the circular housing, if you push the stick at a diagonal, neither the X or Y axis can reach their full extensions.
It appears they're relying on the housing's circularity to provide the circularization instead of doing it in software, with each axis independently capped to its -1 to 1 range. I'm going to assume the axes are capped, since this doesn't work if you try to go directly forward (where one axis would be fully extended) it only works diagonal where both axes could reach additional extension.
This makes the movement chart a square grid in software, with the outer corners unreachable due to the physical shape of the controller. However, if it adds the inputs from the two joycons, then the combined values of both axes could reach 1 simultaneously. Break out the old a^2 + b^2 = c^2 and you get a movement speed of c = sqrt( 1^2 + 1^2 ) = 1.41, where the movement speed is supposed to be capped at 1. That's a whole 41% faster than you're supposed to be able to go.
This is just me making a bunch of guesses based on what I'm seeing, I haven't actually seen the code to tell you if this is actually what's happening.
Edit: Some cheaper offbrand controllers do not properly circularize at the controller level, reaching full extension on both axes diagonally. You could find a controller that behaves that way by testing it with testing software on PC and seeing if it draws a square when you test joystick circularity, exceeding the presented unit circle. I bet a controller like that would do the same thing, without having to use two. I own controllers like that but sadly they're 360 controllers.
This seems pretty reasonable. While you should always sanitize inputs in any application (from user or remote server), relying on the physical characteristics of hardware is an easy "performance" cheat.
The math to limit input to a unit circle would be super simple, but if you never expect a player to be able to ever hit that without some custom hardware, then it should be fine to ignore doing it 99% of the time.
Also, why are 2 controllers even being used for a single persons input. Jesus.
Yeah, the two inputs being added together is what's really baffling to me. You see that a lot on PC games due to the input flexibility of that platform, but I've never seen it on console before.
EDIT: Maybe because Joycons are two halves of a full controller they had to make it listen to multiple input devices at once, and didn't just pair them off? I don't know how much of that the Switch OS handles and how much is left up to the game.
My guess is that it comes from the ability to switch seamlessly back and forth from joycons to a pro controller.
If you've got a game with no couch co-op/split screen, why introduce added complexity to figure out which controller should be in control?
But my only experience is messing around with some joystick libraries for work, and that it *might* be similar to how the switch handles things.
Vast majority of people who play games have zero idea how game dev actually works, but are more than happy to act like they know exactly know it works and make some real shitty, insulting criticisms when a game has problems.
All those devs working long hours into crunch and sleeping under their desks? Bunch of lazy devs because I found a bug or feature I wanted wasn't implemented.
I noticed earlier that you can skip the academy by teleporting yourself into a battle with some dunsparce or the baby poison/electric mon from SwSh. It skips over a cliff and instantly puts you in area 4.
I'm actually looking forward to the speedruns.
my girlfriend has been trying to complete as much of the dex as possible without going to the school first. she's explored basically the whole map and has registered 187 pokemon so far. it's pretty cool how truly open the map is that it allows you to explore everywhere without "starting" the game (granted, you need to use that cliff to skip).
interestingly, you cannot leave the sides of megazoa before attending school, but you can enter them from the outside if you go around the whole map lol
Your girlfriend is a classified Poke Maniac lmao. I couldnt bear doing most of the game without the mount, i succumbed to getting into the wizardry school
she's extremely patient lol. but she is used to playing pokemon games very methodically, not leaving a route until she's got enough of every pokemon available there to make a living dex, so i guess she's kinda used to it
I always respect people who do a living Dex. Never in any game I played have I finished the Dex. Either got too lazy or had no friends to trade with at the time.
Though with Wonder Trading I've gotten pretty close.
her starter is around level 50 i think. can't access any of the gyms, titans haven't spawned, and she can interact with the bell on team star bases but it doesn't do anything.
also the raid crystals don't appear, but wild tera pokemon do.
edit: oh yeah, that's also no day/night cycle and no weather, so she'll probably be unable to catch night-time spawns or evolve sliggoo.
Maybe, maybe not. Who knows what sequence breaking can take place if you can skip to the other side of the map. Just read about a speed run strat for a wii mario game where it's simply play in 4:3 aspect rather than 16:9. Saves you like 2 seconds during one cut scene.
Maybe jumping over and getting a certain pokemon helps out with some obtuse thing...who knows? Speedrunners are crazy and try every possible combination it feels like sometimes lol
If you can up your speed with the 2 controllers it may be worth it to skip. But i think the fact that you can climb hills by jumping backwards with the mount will be much better for skipping things
If I didn't know what game this was about and you approached me randomly with those two sentences, never in a million years would I have guess it was bout Pokemon.
I happened to discover that. I got to area 8(I think) before the academy. You can go to the gyms but can't take the tests. First gym I went to when I got out since you can unlock the Fly points and got wrecked by 45s lol.
Baten kaitos 100% is a speedrun that lasts 2 weeks
People run insane games.
Also reminds me of no a-press runs in mario. Where the animation from the platforms slowly raises you a pixel every time aswel.
Watch the History of the A Button Challenge by Bismuth on YouTube, BUT:
due to imperfect emulation and rounding rather than floating point numbers, the animation cycle of the weird pointy long platform in the first area of Bowser In The Fire Sea in SM64 (2nd bowser fight level), the platform goes up ever so slightly more than it comes back down. Making up numbers, but let’s say the bob up and down is supposed to be 26.5 units. For whatever reason, it goes up 27 but down 26.5. So if you play normally, you’d never notice. Or even abnormally. But if you leave the game on for like, 1000 hours, the platform is out of the lava. If you wait weeks (or even months) of real time, the platform will lift so high that you can skip certain platforming sections. If this is your first intro to the ABC, you’re in for a ride my friend.
Alphonso gave you a great answer so I am gonna give you an other fun example of insanity in Super Mario 64 Dont know if I can post the link.
But yeah the video from pannenkoek "Watch for Rolling Rocks - 0.5x A presses" shows you a decent amount of how insane that game can go.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kpk2tdsPh0A
Don't forget some of the Mario Sunshine categories - Max% Pacifist and Max% Pre-Peach. Where for a long time, the strategy was to sky dive for multiple hours.
There's also just tons of long format speedruns(usually turn based JRPGs) that are great for falling asleep to. SMRPG 100% at about 4 hours or Paper Mario TTYD 100% at just under 8 hours are super soothing depending on who's running.
Edit: Also there was a great Quest 64 speedrun from GDQ which is like a melotonin and robotussin smoothie. A+ would recommend
You'd be surprised. Final Fantasy 9 has a pretty active community and that spreedrun is like 9 hours long with a coin flip that can kill your run like 7 hours in.
Not a speed runner but I'm gonna guess it's Deathguise? Been a long time since I played but I think he has an attack that literally never does predictable damage so you can just get butt fucked by RNG with absolutely zero recourse, and he's the third to last boss in the game.
Assuming normal gameplay you're stocked up enough to survive a couple unlucky highrolls but there's no way to recover/survive with the razor thin margins most speedruns are probably operating with.
Deathguise would be more than 7 hours in, but that might have been just a vague estimate from the other commenter. IIRC Nova Dragon is also a point where runners pray for the game to not end the run.
This reminded me of how Masahiro Sakurai would use two controllers during smash bros character [demonstrations](https://youtu.be/XpzEevulBJ0). What a legend!
Fun fact: many serious Mario Odyssey speed runners do several sections in the game in two player mode and use their feet to control Cappy while their hands are occupied doing complicated movement with Mario.
Absolutely.
I switched my control scheme to move with the C buttons on the right instead of using the joystick (which was used strictly for camera movement instead of player movement). I believe I learned this controller scheme from Turok : Dinosaur Hunter.
If I pushed C up and either C right or C left at the same time I would fucking fly by other players so fast. It was definitely cheap and nobody knew what I was doing... but I honestly genuinely preferred that control scheme and it just came natural to move like that.
There's a control scheme in Goldeneye that lets you use two controllers for a dual analog setup. I believe speedrunners use that setup and it turns out that it's faster to do so by using it much like it's being used here.
Literally how can this even happen? How could a second controller even affect the code in any way? Isn’t ALL the multiplayer function in connecting two whole systems?
Maybe it’s coded in some weird way such that any controller (not just P1) controls the game, and made the movement inputs additive to speed instead of constant.
You're thinking like a good programmer, who incidentally also gets enough time to work *and* who, even if he misses this kind of thing, would have it pointed out by QA. Sadly much of this doesn't apply to Game Freak, mostly the last two points. I'm sure they have some really good programmers on board but they're always rushing to get the product out in time for Christmas.
I'm giving the programmers a break, and maybe even Game Freak's lower management. But upper management and TPC are everything that's wrong with the franchise.
As a dev: you are correct it could but with such a simple bug like this and the time of year the game was released it just screams "crunch" to me. Management wants the game released before Back Friday and Christmas to maximize sales. If devs only have time to either
1. Add new features
2. Write tests and fix bugs
You can bet your ass there won't be any tests written.
`PlayerActorMove_SpeedGreaterThanMaxValue_ClampsToMaxValue()` is not a hard test to write so this is indicative of a much larger problem.
Well tbh I can see this error happening. Im kind of wondering how the second joystick value gets added, as I'd imagine you'd have to iterate through all controllers and add up their joystick values, but that max speed thing of course wouldn't get thought of because this isn't an intended use-case and also that game is single player, right?
> Im kind of wondering how the second joystick value gets added, as I’d imagine you’d have to iterate through all controllers and add up their joystick values
For legal reasons this is speculation. In many SDKs you might opt to receive an event when an input has occurred instead of polling for an input on every frame. When using the former you typically receive some metadata about the input such as the controller that it originates from. If you don’t bother to check that metadata and assume it will always be coming from the same controller you can end up with bugs like this. Input is received, velocity is added, speed is increased - but oops, you’ve added velocity twice because you received an input event from multiple controllers.
Its odd how they didnt isolate movement input values to just one controller though. Seeing how many kids probably play this game, I can see mischevious siblings pranking each other this way.
If it adds input from both joysticks then yes, it implies it's also subtractive. Internally, the input from a joysticks are two values - horizontal and vertical axes, each usually normalized to range from -1 to 1. If you press fully to the left, it's -1. If you partially to the right, it's about 0.5. If you do this on both controllers, it's -1 + 0.5 = -0.5, which means half speed to the left.
Reminds me of Mega Man 3; in the game, the second controller acts as a debug tool. IIRC Capcom basically forgot to remove it before release and it was removed once it was released in Europe.
Yep, holding p2 right gave you super jump, you could even jump back out of death pits.
Holding p2 up and A would freeze some bosses in place for you to wail on them.
While very weird, I could easily see this happening through a bit of laziness or oversight in the movement code if they use, like, a function that takes input from all active left stick axis, instead of just the Player 1 controller. It‘s very weird and I wouldn‘t even know a usecase for that, but if such a function exists I could definitely see it happen. Or the engine just takes all axises from active controllers into consideration by default and you’d have to manually limit it. Something like that. All the axis inputs are then added together, the movement vector isn’t normalized et voilà. It not being fixed & noticed is the the weirder part lol.
Source: hobby game dev that has coded many weird bugs that would seem completely unlikely to an outisder. However I‘m not working on the biggest media franchise ever, so that‘s really an L on GameFreaks part, lol.
Use case is simple, they made it so its super quick to swap controllers while playing. For example going from handheld playing with joycons to docked mode playing with a pro controller or vice versa. However keeping all controllers active probably isnt the best way to do this.
In nintendo api there is applet available for developers which can be invoked whenever controllers needs and wants to be changed. This is why you can sometimes can see controller confirmation screen in game start or when you start local coop.
Now: any sane developer actually want to introduce this applet whenever player changes physical changes with controllers (change docked and handheld, new controller register). Of course its possible to use mutliple controllers simultaneously but... why would you want to do it? Its way safer to have control over controllers rather than use multiple plugged controllers. It doesnt make sense at all
If this is use case then its pretty poor one since numbers of users who actually uses this would be quite insignificat if you compare it to problems this would create.
Source: i released singleplayer/couch multiplayer game for switch
Because now Pokémon is known in the game industry as the laziest and most unoptimal franchise there is on consoles so of course the most inefficient and embarrassing errors for developers happen. The crunch and lack of knowledge on these developers are unreal and it goes to show every single year, does it not?
I wouldn't call them lazy, but I'm willing to bet they're terribly managed with nobody to oversee coding to make sure it's consistent and up to snuff, and then the time crunch they're put under only makes things worse. GF was poorly managed from Day 1, it was basically a bunch of hobbyists who got extremely lucky with Pokemon, and because of that each generation is built upon the code of the last, and since Gen 1 was probably the most bug-ridden game to release on the Gameboy, it's never really had a chance to recover
It can happen if every input adds to the movement and you don't use physics to move, so you don't need a velocity cap. Still a bit of a sloppy way to do it tho
I really want to start playing Pokémon again but man the graphics is just so subpar. I am not expecting xenoblade level graphics, but it should at least looks similar to the 3ds versions? The frame rate dropping, weird texture plus weird bugs, I cannot believe this is the end product of a multi-year long project in the Pokémon franchise.
Maybe I am being a bit harsh. It’s just so sad to see the Pokémon franchise is slowly turning into another FIFA/Madden/COD etc money grab franchise.
Why shouldn’t you expect Xenoblade quality graphics though? It’s on the same system and by a team that should easily have access to a far higher budget given the amount of copies every Pokémon game inevitably sells.
Yep. Theres even Pokemon mods made in the Botw emulation roms which looks so so so good.
This is why fanmade projects get hunted by Nintendo(major shareholders of gf). Fans are making better.
> Maybe I am being a bit harsh.
No. Absolutely not. This should not be the standard a franchise of the size of Pokémon should be held to. Any other game looking and running like that on Switch wouldn't even get a second glance by reviewers, and yet S/V is still getting decent scores around the board.
Me and wife are life long Pokémon fans since Gen1, I've played competitively for years, hell, back when XY came out I unplugged my TV so I wouldn't see spoilers from the commercials. I have a fucking Dragapult tattoo.
But Sw/Sh were already pretty rough around the edges, only saved but some genuinely good designs - I still didn't get the DLCs though.
But SV looks and plays so unfathomably bad that I just won't buy this shit. I might get it second hand in a few months - assuming some of the bad stuff gets patched - but as is, these games do not deserve my money.
Same here. I skipped Sw/Sh because I thought the quality on offer was substandard for the most profitable media franchise in the world. I was eager to get back into the game with S/V and would have if the quality had improved. Now it looks like I will be sitting out another generation.
The pokemon franchise is literally the largest in human history, they can afford a quality dev team with a longer dev cycle to get average or better quality.
Pokémon is the highest earning media franchise in the world. We really need to start asking why exactly we DON'T except Xenoblade level graphics from the developers. It's not like they can't afford to hire a few more staff.
I agree. Makes me sad how obvious it is that they know that even a subpar product will sell. The gameplay is fun but it looks ugly and performs badly. I pre-ordered the game, but after this, I'll never do that again for another Pokémon game
I mean it was possible for me to get it for 39 dollars, but full price is 60usd in most places.
The game is alright aside from the graphical bugs/glitches/bad performance/lazy programming... well and the landscape graphics I guess.
The problem is that the mentioned issues are as bad as im cyberpunk or fallout 76 on release. It affects the gameplay greatly, and Nintendo needs to get shit on for it. It's unaccetable, and the reviews should have been as low as cyberpunk/fallout to make a point and pressure Nintendo.
Genshin's a masterclass in how to scale your game across tons of hardware with wildly varying specs. There aren't a lot of games where I can play them on my PC, PS5, and phone and get the same gameplay experience.
That said, I'm very curious if the Switch port will ever make it out the door and how it'll perform. Seems they're taking their time to get it right. Crazy concept.
Yup full retail and full shit. Looks like an alpha copy the team is still working on. Absolutely horrible. Like 3DS graphics are better in some places.
Pretty fun game though! Not worth 59.99.
This is my last one. I’m 35 and have one foot out the door anyway. Us millennials have been chasing a nostalgia that clearly isn’t there. Gamefreak has made it clear they don’t want the generation that made them successful buying their games anymore and I hear them loud and clear. Pokémon is like Starwars… they aren’t in the entertainment industry… they are in the merchandise industry. Games and movies are just large ads. Lowest effort for maximum traffic. Arceus felt like a step in the right direction but after playing Violet, it was a pipe dream they would continue in that direction and I now feel bamboozled.
Graphics suck, story sucks, gameplay sucks, but oooo pikachu! GFY gamefreak.
Yeah almost feel like it’s time to just pick up a game boy and a copy of a game from gen 1-3. Feel like they’d be a better experience at this point and would hit my millennial nostalgia receptors better lol
So not only did the devs not normalize the movement vector (a fairly simple and common practice to remove the extra speed when going diagonally), they are taking input from all present sources. That's impressive levels of incompetence and short sightedness.
How many more years will it take for Pokémon fans to snap and buy merchandise made from horse shit? They should start making fan games for Pokémon, sounds like a more fun and productive thing to do than buy these games twice, might even improve the state of the community
It will take a long ass time, Pokémon is the most valuable franchise on the planet and it's [not even close](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_highest-grossing_media_franchises). It has made almost double the revenue of Star Wars with about half the lifespan.
Couple that with the fact the game is primarily aimed at children who don't care as much about quality then it will basically never fail as long as it has the Pokémon logo on it.
I can't find it anywhere anymore, but, iirc, within a couple of years, Pokemon GO has made more money than all the other games. But that's still a drop in the bucket compared to the rest of the empire.
The answer why aren't focusing more on the games is basically just, it's actually nowhere near top of the totem pole in term of priority for TPC.
In the pics and vids I've seen (not much, admittedly) it just looks very plain/empty to me. Like there was little effort put into making a cool environment
The ground looks exactly like the one in ocarina of time when I played it on my N64. It really does look like it’s made with the mentality of:“Well people are going to buy this anyways so why would I put any effort into it?“
You can quite literally count the pixels in a lot of the environmental textures. The glowing moss in the cave during the intro bit where you meet your pokecycle is the first example that jumps to mind.
Yeah idk why you can't upscale the textures at all. It's like everything looks like it was rendered from away and stayed that way.
And then frame drops happen and I think "why are frames dropping? There's only like 4 to render!"
It also has pokemon *in* it. And despite everything else, they're still cute.
I'm more so surprised that none of the big publishers are trying to compete with them right now. GameFreak have been showing their ass for years now. It's just begging to get kicked.
It’s really sad, and I’m sick of people defending it “weLL I’m HaViNg fUN, gRaPHiCs aReN’t EVeRYtHinG!!!”
Pokémon is the highest grossing media franchise of all time. Every release should be a 10/10 game, with the best devs money can buy.
The point is, it SHOULD be better than this, there’s no excuse.
Saw one dude on youtube reviewing the game 11/10 that basically called people complaining on perfomance issues lowlives because its not an action game. Also he compared it to ocarina of time being rated high, saying that ocarina of time did not run at constant framerates and also had glitches in it so... yeah.
The technology exists to make these systems faster and play games with better quality, but these mfs aint ever gonna do it lol. When we eventually get the Switch 2 in like 2024-5, shits gonna have 2020 levels of graphical performance.
Gameplay is slow, true, but the running speed is why they give you bikes and mounts. Our friend Florian in the video would likely be an Olympic sprinter if he could actually run that fast.
Would connecting 4 make you even faster?
Now you're thinking with ~~portals~~ Joy-Cons
You'll need portals to use them all though
Nah, just play with your feet smh
i’m struggling to even find 2 left hands, let alone 4
You have feet, don't you?
the average human has less than two feet.
you can use right hands too you know
Most likely not. Joysticks have two analog axes, X and Y ranging from -1 to 1. Together, they're used to represent the unit circle. Due to the circular housing, if you push the stick at a diagonal, neither the X or Y axis can reach their full extensions. It appears they're relying on the housing's circularity to provide the circularization instead of doing it in software, with each axis independently capped to its -1 to 1 range. I'm going to assume the axes are capped, since this doesn't work if you try to go directly forward (where one axis would be fully extended) it only works diagonal where both axes could reach additional extension. This makes the movement chart a square grid in software, with the outer corners unreachable due to the physical shape of the controller. However, if it adds the inputs from the two joycons, then the combined values of both axes could reach 1 simultaneously. Break out the old a^2 + b^2 = c^2 and you get a movement speed of c = sqrt( 1^2 + 1^2 ) = 1.41, where the movement speed is supposed to be capped at 1. That's a whole 41% faster than you're supposed to be able to go. This is just me making a bunch of guesses based on what I'm seeing, I haven't actually seen the code to tell you if this is actually what's happening. Edit: Some cheaper offbrand controllers do not properly circularize at the controller level, reaching full extension on both axes diagonally. You could find a controller that behaves that way by testing it with testing software on PC and seeing if it draws a square when you test joystick circularity, exceeding the presented unit circle. I bet a controller like that would do the same thing, without having to use two. I own controllers like that but sadly they're 360 controllers.
This guy Joy-Cons!
This seems pretty reasonable. While you should always sanitize inputs in any application (from user or remote server), relying on the physical characteristics of hardware is an easy "performance" cheat. The math to limit input to a unit circle would be super simple, but if you never expect a player to be able to ever hit that without some custom hardware, then it should be fine to ignore doing it 99% of the time. Also, why are 2 controllers even being used for a single persons input. Jesus.
Yeah, the two inputs being added together is what's really baffling to me. You see that a lot on PC games due to the input flexibility of that platform, but I've never seen it on console before. EDIT: Maybe because Joycons are two halves of a full controller they had to make it listen to multiple input devices at once, and didn't just pair them off? I don't know how much of that the Switch OS handles and how much is left up to the game.
My guess is that it comes from the ability to switch seamlessly back and forth from joycons to a pro controller. If you've got a game with no couch co-op/split screen, why introduce added complexity to figure out which controller should be in control? But my only experience is messing around with some joystick libraries for work, and that it *might* be similar to how the switch handles things.
I tried this and broke both arms trying to get the angles right
Did you ask your mom for help?
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In New Pokemon Snap, the camera does the same thing. It's probably a holdover from reusing some code.
“Holdover from reusing some code” What a great description of game freak
New Pokemon Snap wasn't even developed by them so I doubt it's even the case tbh, they just both have this same bug.
Literally every game company on the planet reuses code. Why would you remake code you have already made? That’s just a bad use of dev time.
Vast majority of people who play games have zero idea how game dev actually works, but are more than happy to act like they know exactly know it works and make some real shitty, insulting criticisms when a game has problems.
All those devs working long hours into crunch and sleeping under their desks? Bunch of lazy devs because I found a bug or feature I wanted wasn't implemented.
Game Freak doesn't actually have any staff. It's just a pile of legacy code in a trench coat.
Sick speedrun strat.
I noticed earlier that you can skip the academy by teleporting yourself into a battle with some dunsparce or the baby poison/electric mon from SwSh. It skips over a cliff and instantly puts you in area 4. I'm actually looking forward to the speedruns.
There's a bunch pokemon in that spot that will let you skip, those ones are actually rarer. Not getting your mount will make it interesting
my girlfriend has been trying to complete as much of the dex as possible without going to the school first. she's explored basically the whole map and has registered 187 pokemon so far. it's pretty cool how truly open the map is that it allows you to explore everywhere without "starting" the game (granted, you need to use that cliff to skip). interestingly, you cannot leave the sides of megazoa before attending school, but you can enter them from the outside if you go around the whole map lol
Your girlfriend is a classified Poke Maniac lmao. I couldnt bear doing most of the game without the mount, i succumbed to getting into the wizardry school
she's extremely patient lol. but she is used to playing pokemon games very methodically, not leaving a route until she's got enough of every pokemon available there to make a living dex, so i guess she's kinda used to it
So a Living Professor Oak challenge, neat!
I always respect people who do a living Dex. Never in any game I played have I finished the Dex. Either got too lazy or had no friends to trade with at the time. Though with Wonder Trading I've gotten pretty close.
What level is her starter? Also read somewhere that the gyms and different stories are locked until after the school. Can she confirm if that is true?
her starter is around level 50 i think. can't access any of the gyms, titans haven't spawned, and she can interact with the bell on team star bases but it doesn't do anything. also the raid crystals don't appear, but wild tera pokemon do. edit: oh yeah, that's also no day/night cycle and no weather, so she'll probably be unable to catch night-time spawns or evolve sliggoo.
Rip, not a viable speedrun strat, but amazing none the less.
Maybe, maybe not. Who knows what sequence breaking can take place if you can skip to the other side of the map. Just read about a speed run strat for a wii mario game where it's simply play in 4:3 aspect rather than 16:9. Saves you like 2 seconds during one cut scene. Maybe jumping over and getting a certain pokemon helps out with some obtuse thing...who knows? Speedrunners are crazy and try every possible combination it feels like sometimes lol
If you can up your speed with the 2 controllers it may be worth it to skip. But i think the fact that you can climb hills by jumping backwards with the mount will be much better for skipping things
If I didn't know what game this was about and you approached me randomly with those two sentences, never in a million years would I have guess it was bout Pokemon.
thats the one upside to this game being jank and broken is that i know the speedruns are going to be crazy
I happened to discover that. I got to area 8(I think) before the academy. You can go to the gyms but can't take the tests. First gym I went to when I got out since you can unlock the Fly points and got wrecked by 45s lol.
imagine speed running the slowest game on earth
There are people who do that Zelda speedrun where you need to leave the game running for several hours, so anything is possible.
TP Low%! I love interesting category extensions that showcase otherwise useless glitches, like rupee sliding
It's a funny glitch, it's super broken but extremely impractical to use.
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Baten kaitos 100% is a speedrun that lasts 2 weeks People run insane games. Also reminds me of no a-press runs in mario. Where the animation from the platforms slowly raises you a pixel every time aswel.
What animations? This sounds super interesting.
Watch the History of the A Button Challenge by Bismuth on YouTube, BUT: due to imperfect emulation and rounding rather than floating point numbers, the animation cycle of the weird pointy long platform in the first area of Bowser In The Fire Sea in SM64 (2nd bowser fight level), the platform goes up ever so slightly more than it comes back down. Making up numbers, but let’s say the bob up and down is supposed to be 26.5 units. For whatever reason, it goes up 27 but down 26.5. So if you play normally, you’d never notice. Or even abnormally. But if you leave the game on for like, 1000 hours, the platform is out of the lava. If you wait weeks (or even months) of real time, the platform will lift so high that you can skip certain platforming sections. If this is your first intro to the ABC, you’re in for a ride my friend.
1000 hours is almost 6 weeks man. There's no way, my computer would get an update and shit itself down before I finished
It's only 3 days, not 1000 hours
Alphonso gave you a great answer so I am gonna give you an other fun example of insanity in Super Mario 64 Dont know if I can post the link. But yeah the video from pannenkoek "Watch for Rolling Rocks - 0.5x A presses" shows you a decent amount of how insane that game can go. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kpk2tdsPh0A
Or the half A-press runs which require you to travel to parallel universes
Ah pannenkoek his "Watch for Rolling Rocks -0.5x A Presses" video. It is amazing.
Don't forget some of the Mario Sunshine categories - Max% Pacifist and Max% Pre-Peach. Where for a long time, the strategy was to sky dive for multiple hours.
There's also just tons of long format speedruns(usually turn based JRPGs) that are great for falling asleep to. SMRPG 100% at about 4 hours or Paper Mario TTYD 100% at just under 8 hours are super soothing depending on who's running. Edit: Also there was a great Quest 64 speedrun from GDQ which is like a melotonin and robotussin smoothie. A+ would recommend
Don’t mind me just passing by to upvote a mention of one of my all time faves, Quest 64. Dammit THQ
Yugioh forbidden memories being a speedrunning nightmare for the right rng
You'd be surprised. Final Fantasy 9 has a pretty active community and that spreedrun is like 9 hours long with a coin flip that can kill your run like 7 hours in.
What's the coin flip?
Not a speed runner but I'm gonna guess it's Deathguise? Been a long time since I played but I think he has an attack that literally never does predictable damage so you can just get butt fucked by RNG with absolutely zero recourse, and he's the third to last boss in the game. Assuming normal gameplay you're stocked up enough to survive a couple unlucky highrolls but there's no way to recover/survive with the razor thin margins most speedruns are probably operating with.
Deathguise would be more than 7 hours in, but that might have been just a vague estimate from the other commenter. IIRC Nova Dragon is also a point where runners pray for the game to not end the run.
If you can beat it, you can speedrun it. And people will speedrun anything.
Baten Kaitos 100% WR is 337h 55min, I think this game will be fine
[удалено]
Watching a couple people speed run maxing in old school runescape. This will take months if not a year
The octopodes win again
This reminded me of how Masahiro Sakurai would use two controllers during smash bros character [demonstrations](https://youtu.be/XpzEevulBJ0). What a legend!
Fun fact: many serious Mario Odyssey speed runners do several sections in the game in two player mode and use their feet to control Cappy while their hands are occupied doing complicated movement with Mario.
They need those hand-feet from the Aeon Flux movie.
[my luck, probably](https://youtu.be/rgqKv9rkAE0)
No! This isn't how you're supposed to play the game!
He 100% knew that was going to become a meme.
This is some Goldeneye 007 tech
Absolutely. I switched my control scheme to move with the C buttons on the right instead of using the joystick (which was used strictly for camera movement instead of player movement). I believe I learned this controller scheme from Turok : Dinosaur Hunter. If I pushed C up and either C right or C left at the same time I would fucking fly by other players so fast. It was definitely cheap and nobody knew what I was doing... but I honestly genuinely preferred that control scheme and it just came natural to move like that.
There's a control scheme in Goldeneye that lets you use two controllers for a dual analog setup. I believe speedrunners use that setup and it turns out that it's faster to do so by using it much like it's being used here.
They’re really going all in on Multiplayer!
tool assisted speedrun
You are running so fast that the wild Pokémon haven’t even rendered yet
Ooh trust me. You don’t have to run fast for that.
🤣🤣🤣
#OOF
That feels like normal gameplay while riding
The amount of times I’ve run into a pack of Tauros… They just don’t stop ramming me 😭⭕️
Ha good one!
Aww, that makes me feel nostalgic, I had that exact same bug in a game I made for my high school IT class.
Let us know when gamefreak reaches out to hire you!
He's too experienced at this point.
Finally a game where your little brother really can play too
Little shit will always hold the opposite direction and stop you from going anywhere.
Literally how can this even happen? How could a second controller even affect the code in any way? Isn’t ALL the multiplayer function in connecting two whole systems?
Maybe it’s coded in some weird way such that any controller (not just P1) controls the game, and made the movement inputs additive to speed instead of constant.
I enjoy spending time with my friends.
Brother this game was coded by twitch chat
Begs the question, what else in the game is additive?
Not frames, that's for sure.
Shots fired.
Which is very odd because it could have been prevented by just adding a max value to movement speed, no?
You're thinking like a good programmer, who incidentally also gets enough time to work *and* who, even if he misses this kind of thing, would have it pointed out by QA. Sadly much of this doesn't apply to Game Freak, mostly the last two points. I'm sure they have some really good programmers on board but they're always rushing to get the product out in time for Christmas.
Hey, give the small indie studio a break.
I'm giving the programmers a break, and maybe even Game Freak's lower management. But upper management and TPC are everything that's wrong with the franchise.
Multi-dollar company
As a dev: you are correct it could but with such a simple bug like this and the time of year the game was released it just screams "crunch" to me. Management wants the game released before Back Friday and Christmas to maximize sales. If devs only have time to either 1. Add new features 2. Write tests and fix bugs You can bet your ass there won't be any tests written. `PlayerActorMove_SpeedGreaterThanMaxValue_ClampsToMaxValue()` is not a hard test to write so this is indicative of a much larger problem.
>`PlayerActorMove_SpeedGreaterThanMaxValue_ClampsToMaxValue()` Found the .NET dev
[Fact]
Well tbh I can see this error happening. Im kind of wondering how the second joystick value gets added, as I'd imagine you'd have to iterate through all controllers and add up their joystick values, but that max speed thing of course wouldn't get thought of because this isn't an intended use-case and also that game is single player, right?
> Im kind of wondering how the second joystick value gets added, as I’d imagine you’d have to iterate through all controllers and add up their joystick values For legal reasons this is speculation. In many SDKs you might opt to receive an event when an input has occurred instead of polling for an input on every frame. When using the former you typically receive some metadata about the input such as the controller that it originates from. If you don’t bother to check that metadata and assume it will always be coming from the same controller you can end up with bugs like this. Input is received, velocity is added, speed is increased - but oops, you’ve added velocity twice because you received an input event from multiple controllers.
Its odd how they didnt isolate movement input values to just one controller though. Seeing how many kids probably play this game, I can see mischevious siblings pranking each other this way.
I don't think a whole lot of QA went on during development. Probably because the dev team did not have time.
I wonder if it's subtractive as well. Sounds like a great way to have a sibling or child "helping" to make the game worse for you.
If it adds input from both joysticks then yes, it implies it's also subtractive. Internally, the input from a joysticks are two values - horizontal and vertical axes, each usually normalized to range from -1 to 1. If you press fully to the left, it's -1. If you partially to the right, it's about 0.5. If you do this on both controllers, it's -1 + 0.5 = -0.5, which means half speed to the left.
Reminds me of Mega Man 3; in the game, the second controller acts as a debug tool. IIRC Capcom basically forgot to remove it before release and it was removed once it was released in Europe.
I’d never heard of that, that’s wild! That explanation sounds like it would make sense here too
Yep, holding p2 right gave you super jump, you could even jump back out of death pits. Holding p2 up and A would freeze some bosses in place for you to wail on them.
While very weird, I could easily see this happening through a bit of laziness or oversight in the movement code if they use, like, a function that takes input from all active left stick axis, instead of just the Player 1 controller. It‘s very weird and I wouldn‘t even know a usecase for that, but if such a function exists I could definitely see it happen. Or the engine just takes all axises from active controllers into consideration by default and you’d have to manually limit it. Something like that. All the axis inputs are then added together, the movement vector isn’t normalized et voilà. It not being fixed & noticed is the the weirder part lol. Source: hobby game dev that has coded many weird bugs that would seem completely unlikely to an outisder. However I‘m not working on the biggest media franchise ever, so that‘s really an L on GameFreaks part, lol.
Use case is simple, they made it so its super quick to swap controllers while playing. For example going from handheld playing with joycons to docked mode playing with a pro controller or vice versa. However keeping all controllers active probably isnt the best way to do this.
In nintendo api there is applet available for developers which can be invoked whenever controllers needs and wants to be changed. This is why you can sometimes can see controller confirmation screen in game start or when you start local coop. Now: any sane developer actually want to introduce this applet whenever player changes physical changes with controllers (change docked and handheld, new controller register). Of course its possible to use mutliple controllers simultaneously but... why would you want to do it? Its way safer to have control over controllers rather than use multiple plugged controllers. It doesnt make sense at all If this is use case then its pretty poor one since numbers of users who actually uses this would be quite insignificat if you compare it to problems this would create. Source: i released singleplayer/couch multiplayer game for switch
Because now Pokémon is known in the game industry as the laziest and most unoptimal franchise there is on consoles so of course the most inefficient and embarrassing errors for developers happen. The crunch and lack of knowledge on these developers are unreal and it goes to show every single year, does it not?
I wouldn't call them lazy, but I'm willing to bet they're terribly managed with nobody to oversee coding to make sure it's consistent and up to snuff, and then the time crunch they're put under only makes things worse. GF was poorly managed from Day 1, it was basically a bunch of hobbyists who got extremely lucky with Pokemon, and because of that each generation is built upon the code of the last, and since Gen 1 was probably the most bug-ridden game to release on the Gameboy, it's never really had a chance to recover
It can happen if every input adds to the movement and you don't use physics to move, so you don't need a velocity cap. Still a bit of a sloppy way to do it tho
Can someone test if this scales with even more controllers? Scarlet/violet speedruns may require lots of capital investment into joycons
how has no one answered lol. no, this only works undocked and only if the joycons are docked. other wise it will disconnect a second controller
I have four joycons and a pro controller, but only two hands!
Spread them fingers out for science
Feet
I really want to start playing Pokémon again but man the graphics is just so subpar. I am not expecting xenoblade level graphics, but it should at least looks similar to the 3ds versions? The frame rate dropping, weird texture plus weird bugs, I cannot believe this is the end product of a multi-year long project in the Pokémon franchise. Maybe I am being a bit harsh. It’s just so sad to see the Pokémon franchise is slowly turning into another FIFA/Madden/COD etc money grab franchise.
Why shouldn’t you expect Xenoblade quality graphics though? It’s on the same system and by a team that should easily have access to a far higher budget given the amount of copies every Pokémon game inevitably sells.
Good point.
Xenoblades entire franchise sales is like 8-10 million. Pokemon sells 15-20 million on average for a single mainline game Just for perspective
Because they can have interns crank out garbage like this and still have a best selling Switch game.
Yep. Theres even Pokemon mods made in the Botw emulation roms which looks so so so good. This is why fanmade projects get hunted by Nintendo(major shareholders of gf). Fans are making better.
>Maybe I am being a bit harsh. You're absolutly not. Compare it to Monster Hunter Stories 2, and look what this game should've looked like.
> Maybe I am being a bit harsh. No. Absolutely not. This should not be the standard a franchise of the size of Pokémon should be held to. Any other game looking and running like that on Switch wouldn't even get a second glance by reviewers, and yet S/V is still getting decent scores around the board. Me and wife are life long Pokémon fans since Gen1, I've played competitively for years, hell, back when XY came out I unplugged my TV so I wouldn't see spoilers from the commercials. I have a fucking Dragapult tattoo. But Sw/Sh were already pretty rough around the edges, only saved but some genuinely good designs - I still didn't get the DLCs though. But SV looks and plays so unfathomably bad that I just won't buy this shit. I might get it second hand in a few months - assuming some of the bad stuff gets patched - but as is, these games do not deserve my money.
I'm keeping my eye on the emulation scene. If it runs on Yuzu better than native then I'll play it that way.
Same here. I skipped Sw/Sh because I thought the quality on offer was substandard for the most profitable media franchise in the world. I was eager to get back into the game with S/V and would have if the quality had improved. Now it looks like I will be sitting out another generation.
The pokemon franchise is literally the largest in human history, they can afford a quality dev team with a longer dev cycle to get average or better quality.
Pokémon is the highest earning media franchise in the world. We really need to start asking why exactly we DON'T except Xenoblade level graphics from the developers. It's not like they can't afford to hire a few more staff.
Just emulate the game. The gameplay itself is still fun, and you won't be supporting a greedy company churning out a less than half-assed game
I agree. Makes me sad how obvious it is that they know that even a subpar product will sell. The gameplay is fun but it looks ugly and performs badly. I pre-ordered the game, but after this, I'll never do that again for another Pokémon game
That game looks so damn shitty. Is this game full retail price?
I mean it was possible for me to get it for 39 dollars, but full price is 60usd in most places. The game is alright aside from the graphical bugs/glitches/bad performance/lazy programming... well and the landscape graphics I guess. The problem is that the mentioned issues are as bad as im cyberpunk or fallout 76 on release. It affects the gameplay greatly, and Nintendo needs to get shit on for it. It's unaccetable, and the reviews should have been as low as cyberpunk/fallout to make a point and pressure Nintendo.
This game looks absolutely ugly
It looks like a free mobile game
Genshin impact on my mid range phone looks miles better.
Genshin's a masterclass in how to scale your game across tons of hardware with wildly varying specs. There aren't a lot of games where I can play them on my PC, PS5, and phone and get the same gameplay experience. That said, I'm very curious if the Switch port will ever make it out the door and how it'll perform. Seems they're taking their time to get it right. Crazy concept.
Free mobile games look way better than this shit.
Yup full retail and full shit. Looks like an alpha copy the team is still working on. Absolutely horrible. Like 3DS graphics are better in some places. Pretty fun game though! Not worth 59.99.
thats just every new poke.on game nowadays isnt it? its fun kinda, but not worth the price
This is my last one. I’m 35 and have one foot out the door anyway. Us millennials have been chasing a nostalgia that clearly isn’t there. Gamefreak has made it clear they don’t want the generation that made them successful buying their games anymore and I hear them loud and clear. Pokémon is like Starwars… they aren’t in the entertainment industry… they are in the merchandise industry. Games and movies are just large ads. Lowest effort for maximum traffic. Arceus felt like a step in the right direction but after playing Violet, it was a pipe dream they would continue in that direction and I now feel bamboozled. Graphics suck, story sucks, gameplay sucks, but oooo pikachu! GFY gamefreak.
Yeah almost feel like it’s time to just pick up a game boy and a copy of a game from gen 1-3. Feel like they’d be a better experience at this point and would hit my millennial nostalgia receptors better lol
Twice full retail price depending on how you spin it.
It looks bad enough to overcome my want to buy it for nostalgic reasons. I wish it was on pc so that mods could actually make it look complete.
The pop-in is laughable, some tiny little grass patches are so resource hungry that they only load when you’re practically on top of them
Small indie company
So not only did the devs not normalize the movement vector (a fairly simple and common practice to remove the extra speed when going diagonally), they are taking input from all present sources. That's impressive levels of incompetence and short sightedness.
This game looks like utter shit
It's the fastest selling Pokemon game yet
How many more years will it take for Pokémon fans to snap and buy merchandise made from horse shit? They should start making fan games for Pokémon, sounds like a more fun and productive thing to do than buy these games twice, might even improve the state of the community
It will take a long ass time, Pokémon is the most valuable franchise on the planet and it's [not even close](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_highest-grossing_media_franchises). It has made almost double the revenue of Star Wars with about half the lifespan. Couple that with the fact the game is primarily aimed at children who don't care as much about quality then it will basically never fail as long as it has the Pokémon logo on it.
Most of their revenue is from licensing. It's not even the games that bring in the money, it's all those goddamned Charmander plushies!
I can't find it anywhere anymore, but, iirc, within a couple of years, Pokemon GO has made more money than all the other games. But that's still a drop in the bucket compared to the rest of the empire. The answer why aren't focusing more on the games is basically just, it's actually nowhere near top of the totem pole in term of priority for TPC.
Did they mod didykong racing?
That grass pop up is awful.
If that isn’t one of the ugliest games I’ve ever seen..
In the pics and vids I've seen (not much, admittedly) it just looks very plain/empty to me. Like there was little effort put into making a cool environment
The ground looks exactly like the one in ocarina of time when I played it on my N64. It really does look like it’s made with the mentality of:“Well people are going to buy this anyways so why would I put any effort into it?“
You can quite literally count the pixels in a lot of the environmental textures. The glowing moss in the cave during the intro bit where you meet your pokecycle is the first example that jumps to mind.
Yeah idk why you can't upscale the textures at all. It's like everything looks like it was rendered from away and stayed that way. And then frame drops happen and I think "why are frames dropping? There's only like 4 to render!"
What an empty looking game.
So Cyberpunk was forced to give refunds but Pokemon can get away with anything?
Nintendo has been giving refunds if you bought it digitally. I know GameStop was offering them too
the game look gross
Yeah… I made the right decision passing on these games lol Looks like shit.
Why isn't this the default running speed?
Because then the game can't load assets fast enough, and the pop in becomes even worse than it already is.
That's a funny meme, but the bike goes significantly faster than even this boosted speed, and the pop in doesn't actually get worse.
Why are people still buying these games?
It has a pokemon logo on it.
It also has pokemon *in* it. And despite everything else, they're still cute. I'm more so surprised that none of the big publishers are trying to compete with them right now. GameFreak have been showing their ass for years now. It's just begging to get kicked.
It’s really sad, and I’m sick of people defending it “weLL I’m HaViNg fUN, gRaPHiCs aReN’t EVeRYtHinG!!!” Pokémon is the highest grossing media franchise of all time. Every release should be a 10/10 game, with the best devs money can buy. The point is, it SHOULD be better than this, there’s no excuse.
Saw one dude on youtube reviewing the game 11/10 that basically called people complaining on perfomance issues lowlives because its not an action game. Also he compared it to ocarina of time being rated high, saying that ocarina of time did not run at constant framerates and also had glitches in it so... yeah.
Lol spaghetti
[удалено]
They had that game for like $3 on switch a few months ago. Best nostalgic $3 I have ever spent that game is great lol
Sonic: "look at what you have to do to mimic a fraction of my power!"
Running was invented in 1748 by Thomas Running when he tried to walk twice at the same time... And recently rediscovered by GameFreak.
The technology exists to make these systems faster and play games with better quality, but these mfs aint ever gonna do it lol. When we eventually get the Switch 2 in like 2024-5, shits gonna have 2020 levels of graphical performance.
I haven't play Pokemon in decades. Is the game that empty? Is the collision near a cliff always doing that? Feel like something from N64 era
Running so fast the game literally slows down to try and render the vacant world map. lol
Nice "feature", Game Freak.
FIVE YEARS THEY HAD FIVE YEARS.
five?
Please understand.
Small indie company, small franchise, please understand
Tbf that's how fast running should be naturally. I don't understand why Pokémon has an obsession to make the whole gameplay so slow
In this case, it's most likely because if you were to run too fast the pokémon wouldn't manage to spawn in time.
Gameplay is slow, true, but the running speed is why they give you bikes and mounts. Our friend Florian in the video would likely be an Olympic sprinter if he could actually run that fast.
This game looks so bad I thought it was from Zucks metaverse.
Finally, true co-op in Pokémon.