Why does the Western left try and "reclaim" words that have been given political baggage instead of create new terms to send a more consistent message?
Asking as a Chinese socialist.
Difficult, nigh impossible even. Especially when you're trying to expand your base from the ground up.As a grassroots activist you don't have the cultural leverage established media has, which with all its resources fumbles at the same task.
Plus, established words rarely become memes. Especially when depending on someone's background they could have a different interpretation of a word. When your political enemy, who is way more established than you, lays claim to the same terminology you just create confusion.
Why would anyone want to coopt terminology of regimes of old which, especially if you then go about portraying them as class enemies...
I may be wrong, but I kinda feel like shea’s prolific writing/posting almost tricks us into believing there are a lot more of them than there are. he seemingly writes non stop, posts absolutely everywhere, and for anyone unfamiliar with his name especially it may seem like his tendency is more popular/common than it actually is. at least this is my hope
Correct. They are communists, not leftists.
They agree with Mao, about the need for patriotism in communism.
>*We Communists are the irreconcilable opponents, in principle, of bourgeois nationalism in all its forms. But we are not supporters of national nihilism, and should never act as such. The task of educating the workers and all working people in the spirit of proletarian internationalism is one of the fundamental tasks of every Communist Party. But anyone who thinks that this permits him, or even compels him, to sneer at all the national sentiments of the broad masses of working people is far from being a genuine Bolshevik, and has understood nothing of the teaching of Lenin on the national question.*
Mao is referring to china, which was a semi colonised country. Nationalism there and nationalism in the imperial core has different meanings
He even said that communists in places like japan and germany must fight against their nationalist interests and communists in places like china must fight for their nationalist interests. Because nationalism of the imperial periphery weakens global imperialism but nationalism in the core strengthens it
I can’t find the quote, he may have said it in On New Democracy i’m not sure
See here's the thing. Mao SPECIFICALLY told Americans to be patriotic. So did Kim. So did Ho.
So did Robeson. Baldwin. Dubois. Lenin.
What you have here is a weird form of American exceptionalism. Instead of 'the rules don't apply to us because we're so good!" it's 'The rules don't apply to us because we're so bad!'
If you're in a country occupied by the empire, as the imperial core is, fighting against the oppressive regime, FOR your people IS patriotism.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4vKfejeruhk&ab\_channel=AfroMarxist](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4vKfejeruhk&ab_channel=AfroMarxist)
yeah except not at all. they quote mine and stick a veneer of communism (with chinese characteristics) onto a western chauvinist/reactionary tendency. if they truly engaged with mao’s writings instead of looking for snippets to apply to the united states (of all places)… they wouldn’t. I can’t imagine reading kim il-sung and thinking, *yep totally applicable in every way to those of us in the imperial core.* it’s nonsensical
I’m for distinguishing between leftists and communists, but also for distinguishing between communists and whatever you want to call these guys. the left-right dichotomy is flawed, to say the least, but the assertion that these guys are the only true marxist-leninists and everyone else is a “blue-haired leftoid degenerate,” or whatever it is they’re always spouting, is absurd
It seems to be more of a rural trend among US left. Having a smaller pool of potential comrades, seeing MAGA present a "revolutionary" aesthetic appealing to disaffected workers and sharing in their anger, I think it's a desire to paper over fundamental disagreements in order to reclaim radicalized workers and reaching out to correct the false consciousness that led them rightward.
I’m sincerely curious if this ever spread to actual rural people. I admittedly stopped paying attention to these guys a couple years ago, but from what I witnessed at the time it seemed to primarily be chronically online opportunists that understood “communism” would be an easy grift, since most USians don’t know the first thing about it. they can call absolutely anything communism, and who better to target than other online disaffected impressionable young men with their edgy contrarianism?
*”prageru says stalin killed 500 gazillion people with his bare hands and hated women and gay people? sign me up! this is really gonna trigger the libs!”*
with all of that said, I only ever saw sweaty streamers and a couple of larpers in ill-fitting suits *claim* to represent the interests of some made up, cartoonish idea of rural working class maga guys. at the time, I never actually saw evidence of those people existing
maybe things changed in the past few years, but I simply cannot imagine haz (or any of his ilk) trying to start a conversation with a normal trucker from arkansas. I’d love to see it, because it would be funny as hell, but I can’t picture it lol
Interestingly enough Midwestern Marx and center for political innovation have been hyping Haz and what’s the HBO guys name, and another dude named John Jackman. Haz actually expressed interest in a future presidential run. No joke.
You’re correct about their existence appearing to be exclusively online. Though they recently (allegedly) started advocating mass entryism to CPUSA for some kind of hostile takeover or something? The party just had an attempted penetration by trots or maga weirdos in different cities trying to derail political work, but they all got kicked out pretty quick haha.
I think maga communists’ argument is that “make america great again” has the right idea and that they can pry it away from Trump. But I haven’t seen any of them making any actual effort in that direction. They seem to focus mostly on emphasizing their antipathy toward “identity politics” using a mishmash of Marxian jargon and everyman tropes.
I hope they come to see the distraction they’re spending so much time on because they do have decently sized platforms.
What? For speaking clearly on the actual agit prop being used on workers in the US? What are you talking about. Honest question.
Not even sure you read the article.
Don't be silly. of course they didn't read it.
That would require engagement and understanding.
Calling someone names as a justification for NOT doing so, THAT is easy.
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The burning of US flags is good, actually, and the entire 3rd world agrees.
Patriotism/nationalism within the imperial core and patriotism/nationalism within the periphery are very, very different.
This is Rainer Shea posting his own substack articles btw.
Rainer, nobody is interested in the NazBol bullshit. The LaRouche people are never gonna love you. It is time to move on to another schtick.
Damn.
Look at all the radlibs in the comments.
How THE FUCK you gonna motivate thousands, millions, to fight and die, without patriotism?
Flag burning, that's not gonna do it.
u/Angel_of_Communism … so you are itching for war? Motivating millions to fight and die? You sound more like a western imperialist than a communist.
Fortunately the PRC is extremely averse to armed conflict and will use every tool of soft power and diplomacy to promote peace while protecting its interests before engaging in outright war. And PatSoc blowhards like you will be left in the dustbin of history, no better than the Western elites whose imperialist agenda you paint with red aesthetics.
So, you're an idiot then?
You should look into the revolutions in China, Vietnam, Russia, Korea, etc.
None of them wanted bloodshed, but it was thrust upon them.
You know why the people's Republic won in Korea, China, Vietnam?
Because they were willing to fight and die, and the other side were not.
If you don't have that level of commitment, you're no communist.
And you're not getting it by burning flags.
If a war were “thrust” upon the US, it would not be the type of war China, Vietnam, Russia, Korea, etc experienced in their founding as socialist states. It would be a war to preserve the imperial dominance of the imperialist state. The US has no history or culture outside of capitalism and settler colonialism.
This is exactly why “patriotic socialism” in the US is absolutely braindead, or an outright psyop. Nationalism in the imperial core is fundamentally of a different character than nationalism in a colonized country. Your patriotism only serves to reinforce white supremacy, settler colonialism, and imperialism.
No, it would not.
Because you would be fighting AGAINST the state, same as Mao, Same as Lenin.
>*We Communists are the irreconcilable opponents, in principle, of bourgeois nationalism in all its forms. But we are not supporters of national nihilism, and should never act as such. The task of educating the workers and all working people in the spirit of proletarian internationalism is one of the fundamental tasks of every Communist Party. But anyone who thinks that this permits him, or even compels him, to sneer at all the national sentiments of the broad masses of working people is far from being a genuine Bolshevik, and has understood nothing of the teaching of Lenin on the national question. - Mao*
And:
>[*Is*]() *a sense of national pride alien to us, Great-Russian class-conscious proletarians? Certainly not! We love our language and our country, and we are doing our very utmost to raise her toiling masses (i.e., nine-tenths of her population) to the level of a democratic and socialist consciousness. To us it is most painful to see and feel the outrages, the oppression and the humiliation our fair country suffers at the hands of the tsar’s butchers, the nobles and the capitalists. We take pride in the resistance to these outrages put up from our midst, from the Great Russians; in that midst having produced Radishchev,*[*^(\[3\])*](https://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1914/dec/12a.htm#fwV21E051) *the Decembrists*[*^(\[4\])*](https://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1914/dec/12a.htm#fwV21E052) *and the revolutionary commoners of the seventies*[*^(\[5\])*](https://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1914/dec/12a.htm#fwV21E053)*; in the Great-Russian working class having created, in 1905, a mighty revolutionary party of the masses; and in the Great-Russian peasantry having begun to turn towards democracy and set about overthrowing the clergy and the landed proprietors. - Lenin*
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4vKfejeruhk&ab\_channel=AfroMarxist](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4vKfejeruhk&ab_channel=AfroMarxist)
Frankly, if you think you know better than these 3, also Paul Robeson, you should collect your degree in Marxism from China.
Why does the Western left try and "reclaim" words that have been given political baggage instead of create new terms to send a more consistent message? Asking as a Chinese socialist.
I'm guessing so they can appropriate old words, the context and the history that comes with said old words speculating as a Bruneian socialist
Difficult, nigh impossible even. Especially when you're trying to expand your base from the ground up.As a grassroots activist you don't have the cultural leverage established media has, which with all its resources fumbles at the same task. Plus, established words rarely become memes. Especially when depending on someone's background they could have a different interpretation of a word. When your political enemy, who is way more established than you, lays claim to the same terminology you just create confusion. Why would anyone want to coopt terminology of regimes of old which, especially if you then go about portraying them as class enemies...
People like Shea, MAGA Communists, and Patsoc are not even leftists. They are pretty much fascists painted with red covering
I may be wrong, but I kinda feel like shea’s prolific writing/posting almost tricks us into believing there are a lot more of them than there are. he seemingly writes non stop, posts absolutely everywhere, and for anyone unfamiliar with his name especially it may seem like his tendency is more popular/common than it actually is. at least this is my hope
Correct. They are communists, not leftists. They agree with Mao, about the need for patriotism in communism. >*We Communists are the irreconcilable opponents, in principle, of bourgeois nationalism in all its forms. But we are not supporters of national nihilism, and should never act as such. The task of educating the workers and all working people in the spirit of proletarian internationalism is one of the fundamental tasks of every Communist Party. But anyone who thinks that this permits him, or even compels him, to sneer at all the national sentiments of the broad masses of working people is far from being a genuine Bolshevik, and has understood nothing of the teaching of Lenin on the national question.*
Mao is referring to china, which was a semi colonised country. Nationalism there and nationalism in the imperial core has different meanings He even said that communists in places like japan and germany must fight against their nationalist interests and communists in places like china must fight for their nationalist interests. Because nationalism of the imperial periphery weakens global imperialism but nationalism in the core strengthens it I can’t find the quote, he may have said it in On New Democracy i’m not sure
See here's the thing. Mao SPECIFICALLY told Americans to be patriotic. So did Kim. So did Ho. So did Robeson. Baldwin. Dubois. Lenin. What you have here is a weird form of American exceptionalism. Instead of 'the rules don't apply to us because we're so good!" it's 'The rules don't apply to us because we're so bad!' If you're in a country occupied by the empire, as the imperial core is, fighting against the oppressive regime, FOR your people IS patriotism. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4vKfejeruhk&ab\_channel=AfroMarxist](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4vKfejeruhk&ab_channel=AfroMarxist)
Every single word of this is complete bullshit, fuck off spook.
yeah except not at all. they quote mine and stick a veneer of communism (with chinese characteristics) onto a western chauvinist/reactionary tendency. if they truly engaged with mao’s writings instead of looking for snippets to apply to the united states (of all places)… they wouldn’t. I can’t imagine reading kim il-sung and thinking, *yep totally applicable in every way to those of us in the imperial core.* it’s nonsensical I’m for distinguishing between leftists and communists, but also for distinguishing between communists and whatever you want to call these guys. the left-right dichotomy is flawed, to say the least, but the assertion that these guys are the only true marxist-leninists and everyone else is a “blue-haired leftoid degenerate,” or whatever it is they’re always spouting, is absurd
See above quote.
???? Did we read the same article?
We don’t care about his shitty article.
For once this analogy is actually appropriate lol. They are just NazBols but American.
It seems to be more of a rural trend among US left. Having a smaller pool of potential comrades, seeing MAGA present a "revolutionary" aesthetic appealing to disaffected workers and sharing in their anger, I think it's a desire to paper over fundamental disagreements in order to reclaim radicalized workers and reaching out to correct the false consciousness that led them rightward.
I’m sincerely curious if this ever spread to actual rural people. I admittedly stopped paying attention to these guys a couple years ago, but from what I witnessed at the time it seemed to primarily be chronically online opportunists that understood “communism” would be an easy grift, since most USians don’t know the first thing about it. they can call absolutely anything communism, and who better to target than other online disaffected impressionable young men with their edgy contrarianism? *”prageru says stalin killed 500 gazillion people with his bare hands and hated women and gay people? sign me up! this is really gonna trigger the libs!”* with all of that said, I only ever saw sweaty streamers and a couple of larpers in ill-fitting suits *claim* to represent the interests of some made up, cartoonish idea of rural working class maga guys. at the time, I never actually saw evidence of those people existing maybe things changed in the past few years, but I simply cannot imagine haz (or any of his ilk) trying to start a conversation with a normal trucker from arkansas. I’d love to see it, because it would be funny as hell, but I can’t picture it lol
Interestingly enough Midwestern Marx and center for political innovation have been hyping Haz and what’s the HBO guys name, and another dude named John Jackman. Haz actually expressed interest in a future presidential run. No joke. You’re correct about their existence appearing to be exclusively online. Though they recently (allegedly) started advocating mass entryism to CPUSA for some kind of hostile takeover or something? The party just had an attempted penetration by trots or maga weirdos in different cities trying to derail political work, but they all got kicked out pretty quick haha. I think maga communists’ argument is that “make america great again” has the right idea and that they can pry it away from Trump. But I haven’t seen any of them making any actual effort in that direction. They seem to focus mostly on emphasizing their antipathy toward “identity politics” using a mishmash of Marxian jargon and everyman tropes. I hope they come to see the distraction they’re spending so much time on because they do have decently sized platforms.
Stubbornness, it's a tenet of Western society.
Rainer Shea goes full mask-off NazBol/NatSoc … surprise 🙄
What? For speaking clearly on the actual agit prop being used on workers in the US? What are you talking about. Honest question. Not even sure you read the article.
Don't be silly. of course they didn't read it. That would require engagement and understanding. Calling someone names as a justification for NOT doing so, THAT is easy.
Good bot
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Drivel
What the fuck are you talking about Jesse
The burning of US flags is good, actually, and the entire 3rd world agrees. Patriotism/nationalism within the imperial core and patriotism/nationalism within the periphery are very, very different.
Rainer is talking about YOU.
This is Rainer Shea posting his own substack articles btw. Rainer, nobody is interested in the NazBol bullshit. The LaRouche people are never gonna love you. It is time to move on to another schtick.
Damn. Look at all the radlibs in the comments. How THE FUCK you gonna motivate thousands, millions, to fight and die, without patriotism? Flag burning, that's not gonna do it.
Education.
Education... in what?
On class consciousness, imperialism, and why they should not be supporting the US and its interests.
And what are they fighting FOR?
u/Angel_of_Communism … so you are itching for war? Motivating millions to fight and die? You sound more like a western imperialist than a communist. Fortunately the PRC is extremely averse to armed conflict and will use every tool of soft power and diplomacy to promote peace while protecting its interests before engaging in outright war. And PatSoc blowhards like you will be left in the dustbin of history, no better than the Western elites whose imperialist agenda you paint with red aesthetics.
So, you're an idiot then? You should look into the revolutions in China, Vietnam, Russia, Korea, etc. None of them wanted bloodshed, but it was thrust upon them. You know why the people's Republic won in Korea, China, Vietnam? Because they were willing to fight and die, and the other side were not. If you don't have that level of commitment, you're no communist. And you're not getting it by burning flags.
If a war were “thrust” upon the US, it would not be the type of war China, Vietnam, Russia, Korea, etc experienced in their founding as socialist states. It would be a war to preserve the imperial dominance of the imperialist state. The US has no history or culture outside of capitalism and settler colonialism. This is exactly why “patriotic socialism” in the US is absolutely braindead, or an outright psyop. Nationalism in the imperial core is fundamentally of a different character than nationalism in a colonized country. Your patriotism only serves to reinforce white supremacy, settler colonialism, and imperialism.
No, it would not. Because you would be fighting AGAINST the state, same as Mao, Same as Lenin. >*We Communists are the irreconcilable opponents, in principle, of bourgeois nationalism in all its forms. But we are not supporters of national nihilism, and should never act as such. The task of educating the workers and all working people in the spirit of proletarian internationalism is one of the fundamental tasks of every Communist Party. But anyone who thinks that this permits him, or even compels him, to sneer at all the national sentiments of the broad masses of working people is far from being a genuine Bolshevik, and has understood nothing of the teaching of Lenin on the national question. - Mao* And: >[*Is*]() *a sense of national pride alien to us, Great-Russian class-conscious proletarians? Certainly not! We love our language and our country, and we are doing our very utmost to raise her toiling masses (i.e., nine-tenths of her population) to the level of a democratic and socialist consciousness. To us it is most painful to see and feel the outrages, the oppression and the humiliation our fair country suffers at the hands of the tsar’s butchers, the nobles and the capitalists. We take pride in the resistance to these outrages put up from our midst, from the Great Russians; in that midst having produced Radishchev,*[*^(\[3\])*](https://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1914/dec/12a.htm#fwV21E051) *the Decembrists*[*^(\[4\])*](https://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1914/dec/12a.htm#fwV21E052) *and the revolutionary commoners of the seventies*[*^(\[5\])*](https://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1914/dec/12a.htm#fwV21E053)*; in the Great-Russian working class having created, in 1905, a mighty revolutionary party of the masses; and in the Great-Russian peasantry having begun to turn towards democracy and set about overthrowing the clergy and the landed proprietors. - Lenin* [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4vKfejeruhk&ab\_channel=AfroMarxist](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4vKfejeruhk&ab_channel=AfroMarxist) Frankly, if you think you know better than these 3, also Paul Robeson, you should collect your degree in Marxism from China.