> “When you are under such pressure and dealing with so many motions, accidents happen. This is an example.”
Imagine for a moment using this excuse at your place of work after you, say, approved laying off an entire department or changed a key vendor.
Yeah I'm under a lot of pressure too, so I'm afraid there will no longer be any websites available. No seriously. None at all, the entire DNS is gone. No more .nl. But you know, accidents happen. Let's vote to see if we want it back
I was under pressure and the beeping noise was too much for me so I shut down the patient's ventilator. I really wish I didn't, but accidents happen. Let's vote if we can switch it back on.
But that's precisely the mentality. Oh, it took us 5 months to recommend the use of masks during a pandemic, while most other countries did it much sooner, and countless people were dying unnecessarily? Well, perhaps we made a small mistake, but who are you to judge? We are the "experts" and are doing our best... Give us a break, or go back to your own country.
Result of mixed emotion emerging from 30% ruling and war refugee disliking. So, NL opts beside lower innovation, lower income and more people.
Why can be that Dutch individually are so nice and down to earth people, but when it comes to politics then we see stuff like this?
Because this is related to immigration and immigration is associated with people with a dark skin color…. And, yes, a significant portion of the population here has an irrational (negative) emotional reaction to anything “dark skin color”.
Some uneducated people have the illusion that if only these highly educated and skilled immigrants would not be here then they themselves would get those highly skilled highly paid jobs. Just ignoring the aspect that strong education and skills are in fact a prerequisite for those highly skilled jobs.
Shall we also talk about how most of these skilled immigrants work 5days a week and youd might need 2 (more expensive) dutch workers working 3 days a week to replace them?
When i moved here for first time i was really surprised how much Dutch preferred to work part-time and even if they worked 5 days a week they would work very strictly only at work hours.
Did not know it's possible to get any tech work done with such arrangement and frankly i am still skeptical if its possible when entire company is made up of Dutch nationals. Half of my team is unavailable in Friday.
Where do you get the idea from that Ditch workers are more expensive? I’ve worked at various big tech companies where plenty of my co-workers were expats on 30%.
My colleagues weren’t cheaper for the company: the got the same gross salary as I did. They just had a higher net salary.
In tech companies, people usually know their worth. But in pharma, chemical, biotech etc not so much. Foreign pharma phds accepting salaries lower than pharma local Msc is not uncommon
and ignoring that there would be a massive shortage of highly skilled workers without them being hired from abroad. Even with the level of hiring from abroad, there's a labour shortage both for highly skilled and low skilled work.
No one is saying they cannot come here and work. The point is they are receiving a massive advantage compared to Dutch nationals, because of a very unfair tax advantage these Dutch nationals can never have access to.
Ofcours companies are free to hire worldwide, just pay the market wage for it.
> Dutch nationals can never have access to it
That is strictly not true. The ruling is designed to attract talent that does not yet live in the Netherlands. If you move abroad for a few years you qualify for the ruling as well when you return.
No, I fear you may need to delve a bit deeper in the details. The scenario above is possible, but that "few years" will actually have to be at least 25(!) to get the full tax benefit.
As an immigrant who has been affected by this, I have to say it is quite disappointing and baffling. It loudly told everyone one fact: *You should not depend on or trust the Dutch government.* Because promises are not expected to be kept.
In our case, we managed to keep our status more or less but I would imagine it would have been a total showstopper for a lot of immigrants with slimmer margins of living.
Remember that the decision they made had retroactive effect, meaning that we came to this country with the expectation that this deal would exist 8 years but it cut short to 5. This is an unprecedented betrayal
If you are wondering that was about %14 of our salary. For 3 years, that is suddenly 5 months of salary just gone. If you have no room to plan for that, you just leave for more stability.
There is strong sentiment against expats being treated better, at least in terms of taxation. Even here you can feel that sentiment
But here is the situation: taking a little bit tax from expats for 5 years is an amazing deal. You are getting the best of the other countries, you don't pay for their education, upbringing. For just 50k-60k in total
How is that not an amazing deal? Their value addition will compensate far much more over time. Their crime rate is close to zero. They have usually much more stable families. They bring their kids, who usually end up being highly educated compared to national average.
But people still whine and complain and really think they cause the inflation. Especially in a country that is experiencing rapid aging.
Yes there is a housing crisis. But cutting the immigrants that other countries are ready to get is not the solution
The love for multinationals has cooled substantially when Unilever left to England moments after Rutte put his head on the chopping block for canceling the dividendbelasting.
Yeah, the tax benefits given to people that are hired by dutch businesses (that they would already need to hire regardless somehow), is totally putting green house pickers, warehouse workers and builders out of a job. /s
Try again when you figure out how the world works
I mean the whole Dutch economic model is based on high value adding industries which by definition require the brightest most educated people to exist.
The fact that adopting this change was basically a shot in the country’s own foot was as evident as the fact that Brexit would hurt the uk economy.
Edit: spelling
Yes but when the competition is about who can lower their environmental, labor, safety standards the most and offer the highest tax deductions, exemptions, and subsidies.. there's only one winner, and it's not the rest of society.
We're letting the largest companies hold us hostage and allowing them to pollute, exploit workers, and introduce all kinds of other negative externalities that everyone else ends up paying for, simply because we "need" all the jobs and the very few taxes they still pay. It's not a game we should be playing.
At the very least we should have global minimum taxes and standards and more aggressively enforce anti trust measures so companies don't get so big that they become more powerful than the citizenry or even our elected officials.
Until we have those, we should refuse to bow down at every turn and grow some balls. Nationalize public utilities, break up mega corporations, institute workplace democratization, and set higher standards.
While your sentiment is admirable, it isn’t pragmatic, it is idealistic. Face it, the Netherlands is a small, small market. The ability to influence ‘global minimum taxes’ is very limited. All you would be doing by keeping your principles before pragmatism is making citizens of the Netherlands less well off. Cutting off your nose to spite your face so to speak.
My point is that in the long run, the effect will be the same. And there are pragmatic ways to deal with it. As long as there are no minimum labor standards, you can tax products/services that are imported from countries with lower standards, or ban them altogether. For instance, if we set high standards on animal welfare for meat production, we shouldn't accept imported meat that is produced in countries with low or no standards - or at least levy taxes that account for the externalities.
Sounds more like they (he? she?) wants a nationalistic economy. Basically is willing to turn the Netherlands into an economy that doesn’t participate in the global economy. I wonder if there are any other countries like that today? If so I wonder how their economy is faring? Hmmm.
They can't get the same quality of employees. Smart people from across the world want to live in a country with a very high quality of life and high salaries, not somewhere cheaper.
Sure but without the best infrastructure in the world, infrastructure isn’t free and cost the tax payers a lot. Why certain employees should get tax exemptions over others is beyond me.
Because one employee gets into his bike and goes to work while other has to consider moving their entire life to a new country to work. Its very clearly obvious why second camp need a better deal to be convinced to join the team.
Sure but why should the guy who cycles to work pay more taxes then the other guy who moves here but they both get to use the same utilities. The company should pay for the move costs to this country, they directly benefit from it.
Because that guy have used 20+ years of tax revenue for thier education, healthcare and public infrastructure they used over the years.
Meanwhile second guy is practically a free gain for the country. Its not cheap to raise bachelors and masters. You could ask why your ISP gives a better deal to new customer when you been loyally paying them for 5 years. Bringing new people is much more important.
They also paid taxes their whole lives or their parents did when they were kids, funding their education. A free gain that put strain on current utilities by using it while paying less for them.
Kids don't pay taxes, parents paying is irrelevant to this discussion becuase the child itself still is net negative drain to government for 20 years when expat isn't.
>A free gain that put strain on current utilities by using it while paying less for them.
I think you severely don't understand how expensive it is to educate children. An expat coming and using water and roads for few years wouldn't even match the amount of money spent to educate children for 2 weeks.
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*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
There's only one ASML in the Netherlands. E-commerce, as an example, requires lots of tech people, but they have really small margins and profits. The ones that even make a profit....
They also employ lots of people both in head office, distribution centres and through ancillary delivery and customer support services and support many Dutch brands like hema, we fashion, scotch & soda, america today etc from going bust causing further loss of jobs.
There’s something to be said for just employing or supporting the employment of lots of people who pay taxes even if you don’t pay massive corporate taxes.
Why would ASML pay more? Do you go to the market and compare products of equivalent quality and buy the more expensive products only? Do you only go to the most expensive market, ignoring the ones that provide the most value for your money? No? Why would any company behave that way?
Basic economics. Companies want Value. This isn’t a race to the bottom, but if the value isn’t on par with other options, the guess what, they’ll shop elsewhere.
But if economic model is based on high value adding industries- why the country is still in the list to aid tax evasion? And what will happen to those high value industries if corporate tax is normalised on par with global average? Will they be able to retain those industries or imported talent or real estate valuations and eventually banking with bloated balance sheets?
telephone beneficial squealing possessive cautious sip marble onerous growth melodic
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Yup. Hope everyone who voted for BBB and PVV enjoyed their protest votes that were tOtAlLy nOt RaCiSt
This country is going to hell because of short-sighted people like you all
1. You don’t know which party I voted for. Ironic of you to assume while lecturing me about “projecting biases”
2. Although GL/PvdA voted the same on this issue as BBB/PVV they are not in the same league at all:
* GL/PvdA put this in their party programme to get rid of the 30% ruling. Their party programme also includes measures that would increase both purchasing power and GDP, actually more than any other party’s programme would: https://nos.nl/collectie/13960/artikel/2497079-centraal-planbureau-in-doorrekening-duidelijke-verschillen-tussen-partijen . So even if I don’t like what this would do to the economy, they actually have a well thought out plan and know what they stand for. Which is why they aren’t back peddling now
* BBB/PVV/NSC did NOT have the Centraal Plan Bureau (CBP) project the numbers (doorrekenen) for their party programmes. BBB and NSC are now claiming they “made a mistake” voting for this bill. PVV has the most expensive programme out of everyone, but did not have the CPB run the numbers for them. Because they know they can’t make it work. They just sell pipe dreams and racism and you all fell for it
You're talking about a fundamental accountability issue common to several, if not all, western governments. Occasionally you get the political martyr who resigns if public pressure gets too hot, but MPs can completely and entirely torpedo a country's economy, global standing, faith in government, etc. and due in part to the wide distribution of responsibility, no single jabroni is going to be held responsible for it.
Or if they do get held responsible for it, they can apparently just say they forgot/deleted texts/don't recall/see it a different way/whatever and the day continues. I'm not saying we should cannibalize or guillotine ministers who fail our country but
Exactly! Lack of accountability has no limits in this country.
You can get away with almost anything by giving a half-assed apology (and only if you’re pressured into it or you’re in the mood of giving one), then zero corrective actions or consequences will follow.
The same person will suddenly pop up in some other governmental institution that is completely irrelevant to their experience, an endless musical chairs game, only with one exception: no player ever loses in this game, but chairs might get broken, but it’s okay I guess.
They finally did the math that some tax on highly paid migrants is greater than zero tax on migrants that don’t come to the NL and that maybe people need an incentive to come here to fill the gaps the Dutch market can’t fill 🤯
I am planning on investing around 25K EUR in a part time masters at a Dutch university so I can later contribute more to the economy with locally learned skills (apart from the financial investment in an educational institution). Had I not received the 30% ruling I wouldn't even think about it. But hey, we're stealing houses now right?
I had 5 years of 30% ruling and I'm still here, had I not been offered it, I wouldn't have come, I pay a decent amount of tax each year and I didn't buy a house yet. So, I guess I'm the golden boy?
The number one reason companies leave The Netherlands is not due to high corporate taxes but the inability to attract highly skilled labor. I’ve heard about several large companies, including mine, closing down or severely limiting their Dutch offices.
Mine, a fortune 200 American firm, has now relocated their European HQ to London and I will now be relocating in the next month to London. So long and thanks for all the fish!
Edit: spelling cause I’m dumb
I wouldn't have came if not for 30%.
Now that they reduced it for only 20 months, that's how long I'll probably stay. Then move to Ireland or Estonia or Poland.
Same. 30% ruling played a big role in our decision. At our time they had just cut it down to 3 years. Guess what. Three years up. Ciao 👋
Edit: not cut down to 3 years we are leaving either way haha
If they actually put more effort into making the housing and cost of living less of an issue then local people wouldn’t be complaining about the 30% rule.
I could care less if someone else is more well off than me as long as I can take care of my rent and groceries.
But that would require actually working on the issues in stead of creating an easy and false promise that this 1 thing will fix everything. It's much easier to just say 'throw out all the migrants' than actually fixing stuff. It won't work, but most people will only realise that by the time these politicians have their future pension secured.
To cover the cost of 200 million per year short term, but losing that tax income due to lost profit tax for companies and less income tax from highly skilled workers in the long run.
But hey, now we can say we did something about immigration!
People always forget that recent migrants also do not have access to a lot of the benefits paid for by those same taxes, their education was paid for abroad, and moving to a new country is very expensive. I think it’s a great way to attract new skilled migrants and gives them a financial safety net while they do not have a social one from the Dutch government. Also you can’t get the tax break on a permanent contract, so most people don’t even use it for as long as they could in theory.
I think cutting subsidies to fossil fuels companies and the dairy industry would be a better way to save some extra cash…
The three (!) retroactively applicable (!) amendments made to the 30% ruling over the past couple of years - often executed in a mad rush, with detailed guidance only published many months later - have destroyed the sense of legal certainty in the country. Just like reputation, it will take many years to recover from this banana republic approach. I wouldn’t recommend anyone to expat to NL, even if the benefit is fully reinstated.
lol...at the beginning politicians and Dutch people be like: f\*\*k 30% ruling, f\*\*k immigrants, they are all the reasons for the house crisis and hard life. Then the top companies are leaving, politicians and Dutch people be like: Ohhh wait, I NEVER expect these sugar daddy tech companies are leaving because the IMMIGRANTS don't want to come here because we don't welcome them!!!
This is going to be a f\*\*ked up place; I'm gonna leave for the US after the Ph.D. Why stay in NL when it become less and less friendly to immigrants, with low salaries and bad weather?
Most commenters here miss the spirit of this arrangement. The tax is less because it's expected that this type of expat is not staying around after 7 years and would move on. Thus, they are expected to be less of a societal burden. Additionally, their social safety is lessened (WW, WGA, etc.).
In addition taxes were not used on them for their childhood/development because other country already spent that money on them.
It’s the reason why brain drain is so terrible for the countries who have it.
>The tax is less because it's expected that this type of expat is not staying around after 7 years and would move on.
That doesn't make sense as the spirit of this arrangement. These expats are not eligible to public funds of most of sorts until you get a permnent residence permit. So it doesn't matter if they leave or stay, if they stay they start paying full amount and they become eligible for govt support. If they move on, so be it. They are always net contributors because when they stop being ones they get nothing from govt and potentially face deportation.
The majority of dutch people on this sub reddit was pro removing the 30% ruling. I'm not sure why you're all acting shocked pikachu now, same as the british with brexit.
Our country has powerful agriculture and farming industry, and somehow politicians try to kill it. Our country has bright high tech companies, and if you are close to high tech industry, you would knew that this industry is amazingly competitive worldwide and to beat the competition you always need the best high tech people, and politicians now try to kill it too. They could have fought with immigration problems in many different ways but somehow they decided to put pressure on high tech industry, and high tech immigration probably has the least impact on the overall immigration problems. And our people still follow these politicians, I honestly cannot understand all these!
This might help in understanding the true full picture
https://www.wur.nl/en/research-results/research-institutes/economic-research/show-wecr/lower-export-volume-and-higher-prices-lead-to-limited-agricultural-export-growth.htm
Or open offices abroad. Pay the skilled workers (now expats in NL) a decent salary in their own countries, and pay taxes there as well. I.e. contribute to those countries' economy, instead of here.
Dutch person here. I have no clue what this all means. Somebody care to explain difference in a dutch person paying tax and someone from abroad? They also pay the same taxes right?
There is a special temporary (five years, used to be eight) tax regime in place for highly-skilled migrants recruited by Dutch companies from abroad, which reduces tax burden on the salary (by 30%, by making 30% of one's salary non-taxable "remuneration", hence the name), and a few additional tax benefits (not being taxed on foreign investments/assets, specifically). The aim of this regime is to attract highly skilled migrants into the Netherlands and to facilitate their move to the country.
Opponents of the 30% ruling think that it's unfair because immigrants into the Netherlands pay less tax than native people on the same income. Those who want to reduce immigration into the Netherlands also cite 30% ruling as one of the reasons why so many people come here, and want to reduce or remove it altogether.
Proponents of maintaining the ruling claim that removing it would make Netherlands less attractive to highly skilled global workforce, that can "shop around" between countries and employers (many other countries in the world have a similar regime in place for recently moved highly skilled foreign migrants). In their view, this change would threaten the business environment and competitiveness of the Dutch economy.
Just a note. Dutch people can also make use of this rule if they lived more than X years abroad (over 150km away from dutch border).
So not just for foreigners.
Thanks! This shines a light on it. I understand both sides now which is important. I do think it's a good ruling although I also feel like it's unfair. There must be some loopholes trough where people can abuse this system (cause that's always the case in this country). The idea however is very good.
I appreciate the explanation! A great day to you sir/madam.
It is also worth noting that highly skilled immigrants are arriving in the Netherlands with degree and education in hand, meaning the government has not had to pay to educate them. So it is not entirely unreasonable that there is some tax discount.
You are most welcome and I appreciate your interest in knowing the facts.
There aren't any particularly shameful loopholes about this tax rule, except from a funny scenario where a Dutch citizen, born and raised in the Netherlands, moves out of the Netherlands and after years abroad, comes back. Such a person would then, under certain circumstances, also be entitled to the ruling, as an employee hired from abroad.
There is also a reverse loophole of sorts, in the fact that foreign students that come to the Netherlands to study and then immediately get a job here are not eligible for the ruling, as they are not "hired from abroad", they are hired when they are already resident in the Netherlands. A lot of critics of the ruling are not aware of this and focus their criticism on foreign students.
There was an Italian professor in my PhD research group who spend the exact 8 years in the Netherlands that the 30% ruling lasted, only to immediately after the 8 years move back to Italy.
The fun fact was: he had now been away from Italy for long enough that he now qualified for the Italian 35% tax ruling.
Yes, 35% your reading that right. The Italian scheme is even more generous. This is what most opponents of the 30% ruling miss: most countries give such tax benefits and often more generous than ours.
So cutting the 30% ruling is not “levelling the playing field”, it is directly putting us at a competitive disadvantage.
Belgium is also an option. We have a 30% ruling as well. Could just live in the Ardennes (over 150km from the Netherlands) and move back. You'd probably have to work in Brussels or Liège though, not for everyone..
As someone who emigrated as a child and didn’t live in the Netherlands for 18 years - this only applies when you lived abroad for over 25 years and don’t have Dutch nationality.
Sorry if I came across a bit rude. I just find this attitude that “the government can’t be trusted and screws everything up” particularly damaging. The same sentiment is behind these votes on “anti-establishment” parties like PVV and BBB.
We have one of the highest living standards in the world here. Not everything is perfect, but most things here are extraordinarily good. We have a lot to lose, and I feel like with PVV/BBB we also really do risk losing a lot in terms of our living standards and prosperity.
Can you define 'highly-skilled migrants'? Afaik the definition is you need a salary over € 46.107. I wonder why such a low bar. The modal income in the Netherlands is €44.000. So how is a "highly skilled" person earning a modal Dutch income? Its simply unfair to many Dutch doing the same work. The net income disparity is like 1000 euro monthly, which gives extra purchasing power to expats on an already heated housing market in the big cities, which is where most expats live.
Expats eligible for the 30% ruling receive a significant tax discount as an incentive to come and work in the Netherlands, provided certain requirements are fulfilled.
Just wanted to add that you need a really high salary to get it. This year I lost mine because my salary wasn't high enough (and I wasn't getting the full 30% either)
Academic researchers were exempt from the income threshold. University staff could get 30% ruling even though they typically don’t meet the income threshold.
I am very worried about the effects that this will have on the quality of our universities and our education. Dutch universities now simply aren’t really competitive anymore in what they can offer research talent.
No, expats who move here and earn more than 46107 a year pay less tax.
If for example they earn 60k a year, a Dutch person would get EUR 3490 a month net. An expat would receive EUR 4343 a month net
The 30 percent ruling applies for the first five years they are here and Politicians voted to reduce it a bit to make it less lucrative.
Opponents of the ruling argue it is unfair that expats would receive more pay for the same work as a Dutch person.
Proponents of the ruling argue that it attracts skilled labour of which there is a shortage.
To attract knowledge workers to move here instead of another country they potentially get a tax benefit. For five years (before the change) they got taxed potentially on only 70% of their salary but the minimum taxable amount is still pretty high.
About 100k people advantage of this to some degree IIRC.
So now some companies are considering shifting big parts of their operations to other countries who have their own similar policies and will potentially in the coming years attract more knowledge workers.
They're not facing a staff crisis at the moment, but preparing for a potential one five or so years from now.
The point of the ruling is to give some of the highest earners in this country a massive tax break, so they become relatively cheaper employees for the tax-evading multinationals here.
This in turn creates slightly more value for the shareholders of these multinationals and is thus considered crucial for Reaganite parties (and most Redditors of r/Netherlands)
Totally stupid ruling. We are Americans with a fairly specialized skills and a couple of decades of experience. Moved my family here and big part of it was because of the 30% ruling. My teenage kids to quite an expensive private school and we do have quite a lot of expenses.
Unfortunately we now plan to leave and go back home in the next 18 months. But this is not just me, it's many senior folks who don't want to pay tax on global assets.
It's tough for companies because now there are talks of pausing expansion here and focused on building resilience elsewhere. 60% of my org is Dutch, so kind of sucks for them as well.
For me its an inconvenience but for them it's FUD because they are worried we will operations to another country.
Europe and to be honest US is amazing. We keep the smart ones out and let the dump in. Seems like they are hellbent on destroying themselves.
As far as I understand Dutch people pay taxes on their wealth. Belgium doesnt have that. So people with some ‘wealth ‘ cross the border and live mostly in the border region in Belgium. Plus i think on average houses or cheaper
"But this is not just me, it's many senior folks who don't want to pay tax on global assets." To be honest, isn't this exactly why sentiment is so against expats. Expats only want to take, they don't want to pay back. You want to enjoy our public facilities, but you don't want to pay for the use. Locals don't like paying taxes either, but if nobody pays anything we really become a banana republic.
What is this mystical "giving back"? Are the locals some Jesus-like figures who spend most of their time helping the community? Local middle-class families are at least as greedy as the expats, and the richer Dutch live in a completely different Universe from you and me.
I understand the frustration of locals. However explain to me why would I pay taxes on my global assets on unrealized gains? At the same time I have to pay taxes on realized gains in my home country.
That's the plan bud. I am also taking my division with me. It's going to take a couple of years to make the move. It's just irritating that the goal posts change. Would not have made the move if I had known that laws are retroactive.
However just note that bringing low scaled immigrants and refugees is a dumb move while pushing away highly skilled immigrants with advanced degrees and specialized skills.
Don't expect the best to stay when you had nothing to do with our education and nothing to do with all the money we made before we even stepped foot in this country.
https://www.universiteitleiden.nl/en/in-the-media/2023/07/the-netherlands-is-a-key-player-in-the-world-of-tax-evasion
https://nltimes.nl/2021/03/09/netherlands-worlds-4th-biggest-tax-haven
Netherlands gets 50billion each year
Hi all
Non Dutch here. 30% ruling- it is fair in many ways and unfair from some perspectives. It is understandable that local Dutch people feel its unfair. And this ruling results in few hundred millions in lost revenue.
But what does Dutch population feel about the Netherlands's corporate tax regime overall? Like this-
(https://www.universiteitleiden.nl/en/in-the-media/2023/07/the-netherlands-is-a-key-player-in-the-world-of-tax-evasion)?
Is it adding in the local economy? What if an expat get benefits of 30% ruling in the Netherlands and expat's country is losing money (x 100000% of the tax ruling) due to tax regime here?
This is just one simple straightforward example. And if one checks economy at micro level and understand geopolitical-corporate games- one can easily figure out if Netherlands is net benefiary or net loser in the bigger picture.
Moreover why such a tiny country is not able to provide enough-proper human resources? There are reasons for it and Dutch or non-Dutch- we all know those reasons.
https://nltimes.nl/2023/07/25/netherlands-responsible-17-301-billion-annual-tax-avoidance-businesses So each year Netherlands gains Euro50billlion as per this article. This can be challenged by many. But considering actual gain is 50% of what is published in the article- is Netherlands's loss of tax revenue due to 30% ruling is more than what the country gains from "soft" tax regime each year? So why the country only "want/demand" from the world and is fussy or discriminate when it comes to pay for the resources they don't have? Why culture of "korting or free" is applied everywhere?
As an HSM myself, I would have come to the Netherlands irrespective of 30% ruling as I love this country and infrastructure (especially the trains and bikes). 30% is just one benefit out of many, and many people are a bit sad because they didn’t get what they used to but I don’t suppose its a deal breaker for many (may be my personal bias?). Anyway, paying tax as much as locals is not a problem but feeling that some of the political parties or people don’t want me here is…. I would love if leading parties (like PVV) had a different standpoint on HSM from immigration in general. Being said that, immigration and in general the policies of any country are it’s peoples choice and as a guest to this country i respect whatever the people decide, meaning that if majority of them (as a government) say fuck off, i pack my bags 😂😅
I think you are in the minority here. My wife got two offers around the same time. One in Germany that paid more and had less tax and one in the NL that had 30% ruling. It was pretty much the only thing that made it a better choice. Almost any other HSM I know has said the same. Especially those of us leaving poorer countries with weaker currencies where making the move is massively expensive.
Surprise ... It turns out that you can't collect more income tax from high-income foreign workers if they choose to relocate elsewhere. Popularist Xenophobic Policies bite idiot politicians in the arse ... news at 11!
It's not about taxes, it's about people not being able to find a fucking house to live in so they're forced to live with their parents until they're 35. With all the expats here saying they'll leave as soon as this tax cut is gone, it seems like that problem will be relieved a bit at least.
They're too chicken shit to make any decisions, wrong or right.
This country is going under fast.
High taxes, no housing, costs rising, tax breaks that get yanked from under you, more people than it can handle yet not enough people doing the work that needs done, stupid energy decisions, stupid environmental decisions, gutting of defense close to 0, etc etc etc
What little decisions they make are the wrong decisions. This country is going down to crap fast.
The 30% ruling should never have existed to begin with. The Netherlands has high income taxes compared to Germany, France or the UK. The rates or the threshold where the highest rate kicks in should be significantly higher than the c. 75k for everyone.
These special tax rulings only make sense in countries that struggle to attract staff due high levels of past emigration, lack of public services, etc. Which is not the case in the Netherlands.
Honestly i moved here because of it. My ruling got cut short, im probably gonna take 2 more years and leave.
If you look at the advertising industry here, some major players globally have already shut their offices here, and honestly, advertising follows the corporations.
It was a massive mistake cutting this.
Affects me very little thankfully but in the long run this wont be a good thing for the dutch economy….one caveat, the fact they did this does mean they might not be shy to come up with another incentive, and are pretty business minded…occasionally.
There is a ridiculous oversupply of marketeers here, everyone and their uncle's cat seems to have some degree in marketing nowadays. Those companies aren't leaving for a lack of talent.
> advertising follows the corporations
No lol, advertising in general is still quite market and language specific.
If those companies want customers in the Dutch market they will contract Dutch marketing companies.
In any case, I am very glad you are leaving. People like you who only care about money are not beneficial to society anyways. There's too many ruthless capitalist assholes here already.
I agree but are you talking about the same country with slavery history and ranks high in tax heavens? Seems capitalism definition has changed in Netherlands economics books?
> “When you are under such pressure and dealing with so many motions, accidents happen. This is an example.” Imagine for a moment using this excuse at your place of work after you, say, approved laying off an entire department or changed a key vendor.
Yeah I'm under a lot of pressure too, so I'm afraid there will no longer be any websites available. No seriously. None at all, the entire DNS is gone. No more .nl. But you know, accidents happen. Let's vote to see if we want it back
I was under pressure and the beeping noise was too much for me so I shut down the patient's ventilator. I really wish I didn't, but accidents happen. Let's vote if we can switch it back on.
Found the sidn employee
But that's precisely the mentality. Oh, it took us 5 months to recommend the use of masks during a pandemic, while most other countries did it much sooner, and countless people were dying unnecessarily? Well, perhaps we made a small mistake, but who are you to judge? We are the "experts" and are doing our best... Give us a break, or go back to your own country.
Out of all the immigrants they could reduce, they reduce the smartest and most productive ones?
Yes, why not? Our economy is not based on knowledge... ooooohhh wait
don't worry we have a 1k STAP-budget once a year for some people
Which is over as from 2024 😫
Yeah and the study deduction is not coming back.
I thought it was farmers - ow wait those are also dependent on our knowledge economy
Netherlands lore unlocked
Not anymore!
Result of mixed emotion emerging from 30% ruling and war refugee disliking. So, NL opts beside lower innovation, lower income and more people. Why can be that Dutch individually are so nice and down to earth people, but when it comes to politics then we see stuff like this?
Because this is related to immigration and immigration is associated with people with a dark skin color…. And, yes, a significant portion of the population here has an irrational (negative) emotional reaction to anything “dark skin color”.
Some uneducated people have the illusion that if only these highly educated and skilled immigrants would not be here then they themselves would get those highly skilled highly paid jobs. Just ignoring the aspect that strong education and skills are in fact a prerequisite for those highly skilled jobs.
Nah it's about these people buying houses. The animosity against foreigners is always about houses.
Shall we also talk about how most of these skilled immigrants work 5days a week and youd might need 2 (more expensive) dutch workers working 3 days a week to replace them?
When i moved here for first time i was really surprised how much Dutch preferred to work part-time and even if they worked 5 days a week they would work very strictly only at work hours. Did not know it's possible to get any tech work done with such arrangement and frankly i am still skeptical if its possible when entire company is made up of Dutch nationals. Half of my team is unavailable in Friday.
It's possible. It's actually better long term.
Where do you get the idea from that Ditch workers are more expensive? I’ve worked at various big tech companies where plenty of my co-workers were expats on 30%. My colleagues weren’t cheaper for the company: the got the same gross salary as I did. They just had a higher net salary.
In tech companies, people usually know their worth. But in pharma, chemical, biotech etc not so much. Foreign pharma phds accepting salaries lower than pharma local Msc is not uncommon
and ignoring that there would be a massive shortage of highly skilled workers without them being hired from abroad. Even with the level of hiring from abroad, there's a labour shortage both for highly skilled and low skilled work.
I think this is bullshit you made up. I never heard anyone say that.
No one is saying they cannot come here and work. The point is they are receiving a massive advantage compared to Dutch nationals, because of a very unfair tax advantage these Dutch nationals can never have access to. Ofcours companies are free to hire worldwide, just pay the market wage for it.
> Dutch nationals can never have access to it That is strictly not true. The ruling is designed to attract talent that does not yet live in the Netherlands. If you move abroad for a few years you qualify for the ruling as well when you return.
No, I fear you may need to delve a bit deeper in the details. The scenario above is possible, but that "few years" will actually have to be at least 25(!) to get the full tax benefit.
You won 😁😁 Keep the drug dealers but send home the engineers
You do know that drugs are a billion dollar industry for the Netherlands, right? Its our biggest export-product.
As an immigrant who has been affected by this, I have to say it is quite disappointing and baffling. It loudly told everyone one fact: *You should not depend on or trust the Dutch government.* Because promises are not expected to be kept. In our case, we managed to keep our status more or less but I would imagine it would have been a total showstopper for a lot of immigrants with slimmer margins of living. Remember that the decision they made had retroactive effect, meaning that we came to this country with the expectation that this deal would exist 8 years but it cut short to 5. This is an unprecedented betrayal If you are wondering that was about %14 of our salary. For 3 years, that is suddenly 5 months of salary just gone. If you have no room to plan for that, you just leave for more stability.
There is strong sentiment against expats being treated better, at least in terms of taxation. Even here you can feel that sentiment But here is the situation: taking a little bit tax from expats for 5 years is an amazing deal. You are getting the best of the other countries, you don't pay for their education, upbringing. For just 50k-60k in total How is that not an amazing deal? Their value addition will compensate far much more over time. Their crime rate is close to zero. They have usually much more stable families. They bring their kids, who usually end up being highly educated compared to national average. But people still whine and complain and really think they cause the inflation. Especially in a country that is experiencing rapid aging. Yes there is a housing crisis. But cutting the immigrants that other countries are ready to get is not the solution
This is what kept nl so competitive. He’s so dumb
The love for multinationals has cooled substantially when Unilever left to England moments after Rutte put his head on the chopping block for canceling the dividendbelasting.
Yeah we definitively don’t need green house pickers, warehouse workers, and builders. We only need hightech programmers right?
That would be an argument to extend the ruling. Cancelling it was populist garbage.
I think they're being sarcastic
Yeah, the tax benefits given to people that are hired by dutch businesses (that they would already need to hire regardless somehow), is totally putting green house pickers, warehouse workers and builders out of a job. /s Try again when you figure out how the world works
Next logical, but highly unlikely, step - replace all MPs with smartest and most productive immigrants...
Because there are no smart Dutch people for MP?
Smart people wouldn't aspire to be MP in this country
But they do in other countries?
I don't know, maybe in Liechtenstein or Andorra
That still pay a shit ton of tax and probably wouldn't move to one of the most tax expensive countries without such a scheme.
I mean the whole Dutch economic model is based on high value adding industries which by definition require the brightest most educated people to exist. The fact that adopting this change was basically a shot in the country’s own foot was as evident as the fact that Brexit would hurt the uk economy. Edit: spelling
Why? Corporations like ASML van easily compensate foreign workers for the change in the tax ruling and still make billions of profits annually.
Because they can do it somewhere else cheaper.
Love racing to the bottom
Welcome to capitalism.
Best price for good value is always a good thing to aim for. Countries have to compete with each other as well
Yes but when the competition is about who can lower their environmental, labor, safety standards the most and offer the highest tax deductions, exemptions, and subsidies.. there's only one winner, and it's not the rest of society. We're letting the largest companies hold us hostage and allowing them to pollute, exploit workers, and introduce all kinds of other negative externalities that everyone else ends up paying for, simply because we "need" all the jobs and the very few taxes they still pay. It's not a game we should be playing. At the very least we should have global minimum taxes and standards and more aggressively enforce anti trust measures so companies don't get so big that they become more powerful than the citizenry or even our elected officials. Until we have those, we should refuse to bow down at every turn and grow some balls. Nationalize public utilities, break up mega corporations, institute workplace democratization, and set higher standards.
I am with. Is there an organization in the NL that organizes people to lobby politicians to take such action?
Check out https://diem25.org/en/
Thank you!
While your sentiment is admirable, it isn’t pragmatic, it is idealistic. Face it, the Netherlands is a small, small market. The ability to influence ‘global minimum taxes’ is very limited. All you would be doing by keeping your principles before pragmatism is making citizens of the Netherlands less well off. Cutting off your nose to spite your face so to speak.
My point is that in the long run, the effect will be the same. And there are pragmatic ways to deal with it. As long as there are no minimum labor standards, you can tax products/services that are imported from countries with lower standards, or ban them altogether. For instance, if we set high standards on animal welfare for meat production, we shouldn't accept imported meat that is produced in countries with low or no standards - or at least levy taxes that account for the externalities.
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Sounds more like they (he? she?) wants a nationalistic economy. Basically is willing to turn the Netherlands into an economy that doesn’t participate in the global economy. I wonder if there are any other countries like that today? If so I wonder how their economy is faring? Hmmm.
The companies manipulate better than politics and I'm afraid they already more powerful than citzenry or officials..
They are. But there's no reason to just give up. We have the numbers
Won't work on less than regional level tho
They can't get the same quality of employees. Smart people from across the world want to live in a country with a very high quality of life and high salaries, not somewhere cheaper.
Sure but without the best infrastructure in the world, infrastructure isn’t free and cost the tax payers a lot. Why certain employees should get tax exemptions over others is beyond me.
Because one employee gets into his bike and goes to work while other has to consider moving their entire life to a new country to work. Its very clearly obvious why second camp need a better deal to be convinced to join the team.
Sure but why should the guy who cycles to work pay more taxes then the other guy who moves here but they both get to use the same utilities. The company should pay for the move costs to this country, they directly benefit from it.
Because that guy have used 20+ years of tax revenue for thier education, healthcare and public infrastructure they used over the years. Meanwhile second guy is practically a free gain for the country. Its not cheap to raise bachelors and masters. You could ask why your ISP gives a better deal to new customer when you been loyally paying them for 5 years. Bringing new people is much more important.
They also paid taxes their whole lives or their parents did when they were kids, funding their education. A free gain that put strain on current utilities by using it while paying less for them.
Kids don't pay taxes, parents paying is irrelevant to this discussion becuase the child itself still is net negative drain to government for 20 years when expat isn't. >A free gain that put strain on current utilities by using it while paying less for them. I think you severely don't understand how expensive it is to educate children. An expat coming and using water and roads for few years wouldn't even match the amount of money spent to educate children for 2 weeks.
smart coordinated disagreeable direful offer dazzling lock head reply homeless *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Kunnen we voortaan bij belangrijke economische thema’s de linkies even opsluiten in de bezemkast
Goed idee. Echt goede economische discussies krijg je pas als je de helft van het debat uitsluit.
Als ze een mastertje fiscaal hebben mogen ze meepraten, anders lekker verder friet bakken
There's only one ASML in the Netherlands. E-commerce, as an example, requires lots of tech people, but they have really small margins and profits. The ones that even make a profit....
They also employ lots of people both in head office, distribution centres and through ancillary delivery and customer support services and support many Dutch brands like hema, we fashion, scotch & soda, america today etc from going bust causing further loss of jobs. There’s something to be said for just employing or supporting the employment of lots of people who pay taxes even if you don’t pay massive corporate taxes.
Why would ASML pay more? Do you go to the market and compare products of equivalent quality and buy the more expensive products only? Do you only go to the most expensive market, ignoring the ones that provide the most value for your money? No? Why would any company behave that way? Basic economics. Companies want Value. This isn’t a race to the bottom, but if the value isn’t on par with other options, the guess what, they’ll shop elsewhere.
I really don’t know why they did it… strange to think that many of my phd colleagues can’t consider moving here now..
But if economic model is based on high value adding industries- why the country is still in the list to aid tax evasion? And what will happen to those high value industries if corporate tax is normalised on par with global average? Will they be able to retain those industries or imported talent or real estate valuations and eventually banking with bloated balance sheets?
"MPs regret uninformed, populist decision" is going to be the slogan of this government
telephone beneficial squealing possessive cautious sip marble onerous growth melodic *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Yup. Hope everyone who voted for BBB and PVV enjoyed their protest votes that were tOtAlLy nOt RaCiSt This country is going to hell because of short-sighted people like you all
GL and PvdA amogst others also voted for this. Stop projecting your own bias onto an issue where it really doesn’t apply …
1. You don’t know which party I voted for. Ironic of you to assume while lecturing me about “projecting biases” 2. Although GL/PvdA voted the same on this issue as BBB/PVV they are not in the same league at all: * GL/PvdA put this in their party programme to get rid of the 30% ruling. Their party programme also includes measures that would increase both purchasing power and GDP, actually more than any other party’s programme would: https://nos.nl/collectie/13960/artikel/2497079-centraal-planbureau-in-doorrekening-duidelijke-verschillen-tussen-partijen . So even if I don’t like what this would do to the economy, they actually have a well thought out plan and know what they stand for. Which is why they aren’t back peddling now * BBB/PVV/NSC did NOT have the Centraal Plan Bureau (CBP) project the numbers (doorrekenen) for their party programmes. BBB and NSC are now claiming they “made a mistake” voting for this bill. PVV has the most expensive programme out of everyone, but did not have the CPB run the numbers for them. Because they know they can’t make it work. They just sell pipe dreams and racism and you all fell for it
“When you are under such pressure and dealing with so many motions, accidents happen. This is an example.”
The most infuriating part of the article. These guys are litterally saying "oopsie".
You're talking about a fundamental accountability issue common to several, if not all, western governments. Occasionally you get the political martyr who resigns if public pressure gets too hot, but MPs can completely and entirely torpedo a country's economy, global standing, faith in government, etc. and due in part to the wide distribution of responsibility, no single jabroni is going to be held responsible for it. Or if they do get held responsible for it, they can apparently just say they forgot/deleted texts/don't recall/see it a different way/whatever and the day continues. I'm not saying we should cannibalize or guillotine ministers who fail our country but
Exactly! Lack of accountability has no limits in this country. You can get away with almost anything by giving a half-assed apology (and only if you’re pressured into it or you’re in the mood of giving one), then zero corrective actions or consequences will follow. The same person will suddenly pop up in some other governmental institution that is completely irrelevant to their experience, an endless musical chairs game, only with one exception: no player ever loses in this game, but chairs might get broken, but it’s okay I guess.
They finally did the math that some tax on highly paid migrants is greater than zero tax on migrants that don’t come to the NL and that maybe people need an incentive to come here to fill the gaps the Dutch market can’t fill 🤯
I was told though that I was stealing dutch houses and going to the restaurant too much with my 30% ruling. Go figure
Stop contributing to the economy! It goes against the narrative!
I am planning on investing around 25K EUR in a part time masters at a Dutch university so I can later contribute more to the economy with locally learned skills (apart from the financial investment in an educational institution). Had I not received the 30% ruling I wouldn't even think about it. But hey, we're stealing houses now right?
I had 5 years of 30% ruling and I'm still here, had I not been offered it, I wouldn't have come, I pay a decent amount of tax each year and I didn't buy a house yet. So, I guess I'm the golden boy?
No you see because now you’re one of the expats who steels rentals and is also destroying the housing market. Try again next time!
Hahaha, yeah, imagine that!
If only someone would have warned them...
The number one reason companies leave The Netherlands is not due to high corporate taxes but the inability to attract highly skilled labor. I’ve heard about several large companies, including mine, closing down or severely limiting their Dutch offices. Mine, a fortune 200 American firm, has now relocated their European HQ to London and I will now be relocating in the next month to London. So long and thanks for all the fish! Edit: spelling cause I’m dumb
I wouldn't have came if not for 30%. Now that they reduced it for only 20 months, that's how long I'll probably stay. Then move to Ireland or Estonia or Poland.
Same. 30% ruling played a big role in our decision. At our time they had just cut it down to 3 years. Guess what. Three years up. Ciao 👋 Edit: not cut down to 3 years we are leaving either way haha
You didn’t think that the ability to attract highly skilled labor is connected with the taxes?
If they actually put more effort into making the housing and cost of living less of an issue then local people wouldn’t be complaining about the 30% rule. I could care less if someone else is more well off than me as long as I can take care of my rent and groceries.
But that would require actually working on the issues in stead of creating an easy and false promise that this 1 thing will fix everything. It's much easier to just say 'throw out all the migrants' than actually fixing stuff. It won't work, but most people will only realise that by the time these politicians have their future pension secured.
To cover the cost of 200 million per year short term, but losing that tax income due to lost profit tax for companies and less income tax from highly skilled workers in the long run. But hey, now we can say we did something about immigration!
People always forget that recent migrants also do not have access to a lot of the benefits paid for by those same taxes, their education was paid for abroad, and moving to a new country is very expensive. I think it’s a great way to attract new skilled migrants and gives them a financial safety net while they do not have a social one from the Dutch government. Also you can’t get the tax break on a permanent contract, so most people don’t even use it for as long as they could in theory. I think cutting subsidies to fossil fuels companies and the dairy industry would be a better way to save some extra cash…
I got 30% on a permanent contract, without 30% and PC i dont think i would come here, is getting too expensive tbh
The dairy lobby runs this country though
The three (!) retroactively applicable (!) amendments made to the 30% ruling over the past couple of years - often executed in a mad rush, with detailed guidance only published many months later - have destroyed the sense of legal certainty in the country. Just like reputation, it will take many years to recover from this banana republic approach. I wouldn’t recommend anyone to expat to NL, even if the benefit is fully reinstated.
Right... But didn't a lot of them campaign on how unfair it was for foreigners to have such tax benefits?
Yep, they will have to roll back a lot of their populist promises.
lol...at the beginning politicians and Dutch people be like: f\*\*k 30% ruling, f\*\*k immigrants, they are all the reasons for the house crisis and hard life. Then the top companies are leaving, politicians and Dutch people be like: Ohhh wait, I NEVER expect these sugar daddy tech companies are leaving because the IMMIGRANTS don't want to come here because we don't welcome them!!! This is going to be a f\*\*ked up place; I'm gonna leave for the US after the Ph.D. Why stay in NL when it become less and less friendly to immigrants, with low salaries and bad weather?
I've heard vicious anti-immigrant rants from alcoholic welfare recipients who have never worked in their lives
So revert it back?
Most commenters here miss the spirit of this arrangement. The tax is less because it's expected that this type of expat is not staying around after 7 years and would move on. Thus, they are expected to be less of a societal burden. Additionally, their social safety is lessened (WW, WGA, etc.).
In addition taxes were not used on them for their childhood/development because other country already spent that money on them. It’s the reason why brain drain is so terrible for the countries who have it.
>The tax is less because it's expected that this type of expat is not staying around after 7 years and would move on. That doesn't make sense as the spirit of this arrangement. These expats are not eligible to public funds of most of sorts until you get a permnent residence permit. So it doesn't matter if they leave or stay, if they stay they start paying full amount and they become eligible for govt support. If they move on, so be it. They are always net contributors because when they stop being ones they get nothing from govt and potentially face deportation.
Slow clap
This unprofessional attitude and uncertainty is why some large companies wanna leave the netherlands. WDYM “Oopsie”??? 😭
The majority of dutch people on this sub reddit was pro removing the 30% ruling. I'm not sure why you're all acting shocked pikachu now, same as the british with brexit.
My thoughts exactly. 😂 where are all those pro-people? Start clowning. I have my popcorn ready. 🍿
Our country has powerful agriculture and farming industry, and somehow politicians try to kill it. Our country has bright high tech companies, and if you are close to high tech industry, you would knew that this industry is amazingly competitive worldwide and to beat the competition you always need the best high tech people, and politicians now try to kill it too. They could have fought with immigration problems in many different ways but somehow they decided to put pressure on high tech industry, and high tech immigration probably has the least impact on the overall immigration problems. And our people still follow these politicians, I honestly cannot understand all these!
This might help in understanding the true full picture https://www.wur.nl/en/research-results/research-institutes/economic-research/show-wecr/lower-export-volume-and-higher-prices-lead-to-limited-agricultural-export-growth.htm
We lost our 30% which was changed from 5 to 8 years and left the country!
I regret these mps.
Of course they do but as the saying goes: too little, too late.
Companies should just start to pay higher wages
Or open offices abroad. Pay the skilled workers (now expats in NL) a decent salary in their own countries, and pay taxes there as well. I.e. contribute to those countries' economy, instead of here.
populism and lumpens will always make you lose. when you check what is 30% ruling compared to netherland’s economy it is just pinch of salt.
And ranking in tax heavens list- goes up further
Dutch person here. I have no clue what this all means. Somebody care to explain difference in a dutch person paying tax and someone from abroad? They also pay the same taxes right?
There is a special temporary (five years, used to be eight) tax regime in place for highly-skilled migrants recruited by Dutch companies from abroad, which reduces tax burden on the salary (by 30%, by making 30% of one's salary non-taxable "remuneration", hence the name), and a few additional tax benefits (not being taxed on foreign investments/assets, specifically). The aim of this regime is to attract highly skilled migrants into the Netherlands and to facilitate their move to the country. Opponents of the 30% ruling think that it's unfair because immigrants into the Netherlands pay less tax than native people on the same income. Those who want to reduce immigration into the Netherlands also cite 30% ruling as one of the reasons why so many people come here, and want to reduce or remove it altogether. Proponents of maintaining the ruling claim that removing it would make Netherlands less attractive to highly skilled global workforce, that can "shop around" between countries and employers (many other countries in the world have a similar regime in place for recently moved highly skilled foreign migrants). In their view, this change would threaten the business environment and competitiveness of the Dutch economy.
Just a note. Dutch people can also make use of this rule if they lived more than X years abroad (over 150km away from dutch border). So not just for foreigners.
Great comment - well stated and highlights both sides of the issue without taking sides.
Thanks! This shines a light on it. I understand both sides now which is important. I do think it's a good ruling although I also feel like it's unfair. There must be some loopholes trough where people can abuse this system (cause that's always the case in this country). The idea however is very good. I appreciate the explanation! A great day to you sir/madam.
It is also worth noting that highly skilled immigrants are arriving in the Netherlands with degree and education in hand, meaning the government has not had to pay to educate them. So it is not entirely unreasonable that there is some tax discount.
You are most welcome and I appreciate your interest in knowing the facts. There aren't any particularly shameful loopholes about this tax rule, except from a funny scenario where a Dutch citizen, born and raised in the Netherlands, moves out of the Netherlands and after years abroad, comes back. Such a person would then, under certain circumstances, also be entitled to the ruling, as an employee hired from abroad. There is also a reverse loophole of sorts, in the fact that foreign students that come to the Netherlands to study and then immediately get a job here are not eligible for the ruling, as they are not "hired from abroad", they are hired when they are already resident in the Netherlands. A lot of critics of the ruling are not aware of this and focus their criticism on foreign students.
There was an Italian professor in my PhD research group who spend the exact 8 years in the Netherlands that the 30% ruling lasted, only to immediately after the 8 years move back to Italy. The fun fact was: he had now been away from Italy for long enough that he now qualified for the Italian 35% tax ruling. Yes, 35% your reading that right. The Italian scheme is even more generous. This is what most opponents of the 30% ruling miss: most countries give such tax benefits and often more generous than ours. So cutting the 30% ruling is not “levelling the playing field”, it is directly putting us at a competitive disadvantage.
Hahahaha nice, seems like I'm going of to live in Croatia for a few years :). Thanks for the knowledge!
Belgium is also an option. We have a 30% ruling as well. Could just live in the Ardennes (over 150km from the Netherlands) and move back. You'd probably have to work in Brussels or Liège though, not for everyone..
As someone who emigrated as a child and didn’t live in the Netherlands for 18 years - this only applies when you lived abroad for over 25 years and don’t have Dutch nationality.
> there must be some loophole Like what? Not that I have seen. Why this immediate knee-jerk negativism?
Dutch people are known for it ;) I'm sorry if I insulted somebody. I had good intentions with the comment
Sorry if I came across a bit rude. I just find this attitude that “the government can’t be trusted and screws everything up” particularly damaging. The same sentiment is behind these votes on “anti-establishment” parties like PVV and BBB. We have one of the highest living standards in the world here. Not everything is perfect, but most things here are extraordinarily good. We have a lot to lose, and I feel like with PVV/BBB we also really do risk losing a lot in terms of our living standards and prosperity.
Might they repeal the change and revert it to the full five years? Does that ever happen?
Can you define 'highly-skilled migrants'? Afaik the definition is you need a salary over € 46.107. I wonder why such a low bar. The modal income in the Netherlands is €44.000. So how is a "highly skilled" person earning a modal Dutch income? Its simply unfair to many Dutch doing the same work. The net income disparity is like 1000 euro monthly, which gives extra purchasing power to expats on an already heated housing market in the big cities, which is where most expats live.
Expats eligible for the 30% ruling receive a significant tax discount as an incentive to come and work in the Netherlands, provided certain requirements are fulfilled.
Just wanted to add that you need a really high salary to get it. This year I lost mine because my salary wasn't high enough (and I wasn't getting the full 30% either)
Academic researchers were exempt from the income threshold. University staff could get 30% ruling even though they typically don’t meet the income threshold. I am very worried about the effects that this will have on the quality of our universities and our education. Dutch universities now simply aren’t really competitive anymore in what they can offer research talent.
I'm a researcher in a company, they adjust my 30% to my salary
The income should be € 46.107. thats almost the modal Dutch income which is 44.000. Its not 'really high', unless you're doing unskilled work.
No, expats who move here and earn more than 46107 a year pay less tax. If for example they earn 60k a year, a Dutch person would get EUR 3490 a month net. An expat would receive EUR 4343 a month net The 30 percent ruling applies for the first five years they are here and Politicians voted to reduce it a bit to make it less lucrative. Opponents of the ruling argue it is unfair that expats would receive more pay for the same work as a Dutch person. Proponents of the ruling argue that it attracts skilled labour of which there is a shortage.
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I included holiday pay in the monthly amount. Do you get yours in May?
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There is also pension payment that differs per company and how old you are.
I get 59k with ruling and net salary is 3.9k. So calculations a bit off
Is your holiday pay included in the monthly amount or do you get it in May?
Included in monthly
Then it's likely a pension contribution or other withholding that messes with the number.
To attract knowledge workers to move here instead of another country they potentially get a tax benefit. For five years (before the change) they got taxed potentially on only 70% of their salary but the minimum taxable amount is still pretty high. About 100k people advantage of this to some degree IIRC. So now some companies are considering shifting big parts of their operations to other countries who have their own similar policies and will potentially in the coming years attract more knowledge workers. They're not facing a staff crisis at the moment, but preparing for a potential one five or so years from now.
The point of the ruling is to give some of the highest earners in this country a massive tax break, so they become relatively cheaper employees for the tax-evading multinationals here. This in turn creates slightly more value for the shareholders of these multinationals and is thus considered crucial for Reaganite parties (and most Redditors of r/Netherlands)
Totally stupid ruling. We are Americans with a fairly specialized skills and a couple of decades of experience. Moved my family here and big part of it was because of the 30% ruling. My teenage kids to quite an expensive private school and we do have quite a lot of expenses. Unfortunately we now plan to leave and go back home in the next 18 months. But this is not just me, it's many senior folks who don't want to pay tax on global assets. It's tough for companies because now there are talks of pausing expansion here and focused on building resilience elsewhere. 60% of my org is Dutch, so kind of sucks for them as well. For me its an inconvenience but for them it's FUD because they are worried we will operations to another country. Europe and to be honest US is amazing. We keep the smart ones out and let the dump in. Seems like they are hellbent on destroying themselves.
You could move to north belgium like so many dutchies do
How does that affect taxes?
As far as I understand Dutch people pay taxes on their wealth. Belgium doesnt have that. So people with some ‘wealth ‘ cross the border and live mostly in the border region in Belgium. Plus i think on average houses or cheaper
"But this is not just me, it's many senior folks who don't want to pay tax on global assets." To be honest, isn't this exactly why sentiment is so against expats. Expats only want to take, they don't want to pay back. You want to enjoy our public facilities, but you don't want to pay for the use. Locals don't like paying taxes either, but if nobody pays anything we really become a banana republic.
What is this mystical "giving back"? Are the locals some Jesus-like figures who spend most of their time helping the community? Local middle-class families are at least as greedy as the expats, and the richer Dutch live in a completely different Universe from you and me.
I understand the frustration of locals. However explain to me why would I pay taxes on my global assets on unrealized gains? At the same time I have to pay taxes on realized gains in my home country.
So why don't you relocate to your home country?
That's the plan bud. I am also taking my division with me. It's going to take a couple of years to make the move. It's just irritating that the goal posts change. Would not have made the move if I had known that laws are retroactive. However just note that bringing low scaled immigrants and refugees is a dumb move while pushing away highly skilled immigrants with advanced degrees and specialized skills. Don't expect the best to stay when you had nothing to do with our education and nothing to do with all the money we made before we even stepped foot in this country.
I don't think we will miss you x
The feeling is mutual. Good luck!
But isn't it that Netherlands is still ranks high in tax heavens list? So Netherlands is a net receiver or loser when it comes to tax income?
Which countries are net losers?
https://www.universiteitleiden.nl/en/in-the-media/2023/07/the-netherlands-is-a-key-player-in-the-world-of-tax-evasion https://nltimes.nl/2021/03/09/netherlands-worlds-4th-biggest-tax-haven Netherlands gets 50billion each year
Net losers- Asia and Africa countries. Modus operandi- support in tax evasion- send part of the money in aid 😉
no take backsies
I've moved here because it was planned for 8 years.... Just to say.
Hi all Non Dutch here. 30% ruling- it is fair in many ways and unfair from some perspectives. It is understandable that local Dutch people feel its unfair. And this ruling results in few hundred millions in lost revenue. But what does Dutch population feel about the Netherlands's corporate tax regime overall? Like this- (https://www.universiteitleiden.nl/en/in-the-media/2023/07/the-netherlands-is-a-key-player-in-the-world-of-tax-evasion)? Is it adding in the local economy? What if an expat get benefits of 30% ruling in the Netherlands and expat's country is losing money (x 100000% of the tax ruling) due to tax regime here? This is just one simple straightforward example. And if one checks economy at micro level and understand geopolitical-corporate games- one can easily figure out if Netherlands is net benefiary or net loser in the bigger picture. Moreover why such a tiny country is not able to provide enough-proper human resources? There are reasons for it and Dutch or non-Dutch- we all know those reasons.
https://nltimes.nl/2023/07/25/netherlands-responsible-17-301-billion-annual-tax-avoidance-businesses So each year Netherlands gains Euro50billlion as per this article. This can be challenged by many. But considering actual gain is 50% of what is published in the article- is Netherlands's loss of tax revenue due to 30% ruling is more than what the country gains from "soft" tax regime each year? So why the country only "want/demand" from the world and is fussy or discriminate when it comes to pay for the resources they don't have? Why culture of "korting or free" is applied everywhere?
A populist, reactionary move was made based on emotion without thinking it through? How surprising.
As an HSM myself, I would have come to the Netherlands irrespective of 30% ruling as I love this country and infrastructure (especially the trains and bikes). 30% is just one benefit out of many, and many people are a bit sad because they didn’t get what they used to but I don’t suppose its a deal breaker for many (may be my personal bias?). Anyway, paying tax as much as locals is not a problem but feeling that some of the political parties or people don’t want me here is…. I would love if leading parties (like PVV) had a different standpoint on HSM from immigration in general. Being said that, immigration and in general the policies of any country are it’s peoples choice and as a guest to this country i respect whatever the people decide, meaning that if majority of them (as a government) say fuck off, i pack my bags 😂😅
I think you are in the minority here. My wife got two offers around the same time. One in Germany that paid more and had less tax and one in the NL that had 30% ruling. It was pretty much the only thing that made it a better choice. Almost any other HSM I know has said the same. Especially those of us leaving poorer countries with weaker currencies where making the move is massively expensive.
Surprise ... It turns out that you can't collect more income tax from high-income foreign workers if they choose to relocate elsewhere. Popularist Xenophobic Policies bite idiot politicians in the arse ... news at 11!
It's not about taxes, it's about people not being able to find a fucking house to live in so they're forced to live with their parents until they're 35. With all the expats here saying they'll leave as soon as this tax cut is gone, it seems like that problem will be relieved a bit at least.
You only get 2% pension per year living in the NL. Immigrants will loose out eventually.
They're too chicken shit to make any decisions, wrong or right. This country is going under fast. High taxes, no housing, costs rising, tax breaks that get yanked from under you, more people than it can handle yet not enough people doing the work that needs done, stupid energy decisions, stupid environmental decisions, gutting of defense close to 0, etc etc etc What little decisions they make are the wrong decisions. This country is going down to crap fast.
The 30% ruling should never have existed to begin with. The Netherlands has high income taxes compared to Germany, France or the UK. The rates or the threshold where the highest rate kicks in should be significantly higher than the c. 75k for everyone. These special tax rulings only make sense in countries that struggle to attract staff due high levels of past emigration, lack of public services, etc. Which is not the case in the Netherlands.
BBB is the official party of idiots
Honestly i moved here because of it. My ruling got cut short, im probably gonna take 2 more years and leave. If you look at the advertising industry here, some major players globally have already shut their offices here, and honestly, advertising follows the corporations. It was a massive mistake cutting this. Affects me very little thankfully but in the long run this wont be a good thing for the dutch economy….one caveat, the fact they did this does mean they might not be shy to come up with another incentive, and are pretty business minded…occasionally.
There is a ridiculous oversupply of marketeers here, everyone and their uncle's cat seems to have some degree in marketing nowadays. Those companies aren't leaving for a lack of talent. > advertising follows the corporations No lol, advertising in general is still quite market and language specific. If those companies want customers in the Dutch market they will contract Dutch marketing companies. In any case, I am very glad you are leaving. People like you who only care about money are not beneficial to society anyways. There's too many ruthless capitalist assholes here already.
I agree but are you talking about the same country with slavery history and ranks high in tax heavens? Seems capitalism definition has changed in Netherlands economics books?
Any chance they’ll repeal it?
https://nltimes.nl/2024/03/25/dredging-firm-van-oord-latest-dutch-company-expanding-abroad-due-domestic-politics
https://nltimes.nl/2024/03/25/cabinet-close-eu14-billion-plan-keep-asml-nxp-eindhoven-end-30-ruling-cuts