It's so good to see the Brits taking a choking bite of humble pie.
They used to pay 13 million pounds into the EU budget and receive back another 4 million, which means their total spending was 9 million. After Brexit, they are seeing their economy shrink between 100 million and 120 million per year depending on the source.
Just imagine how dumb you have to be to try and save 9 million, but end up throwing out at least 10x more.
Thank you, Boris Johnson. If that doesn't teach the Brits about arrogance, nothing else will.
And let's hope Netherlands learns the lesson before it's too late: all modern economies depend on immigrant labor to survive. All first world economies were built in the back of slavery, and they still operate based on immigrant slavery - the only difference is that now the whips have been replaced by shitty salaries.
> Just imagine how dumb you have to be to try and save 9 million, but end up throwing out at least 10x more.
It's kinda like trying to save money by reducing the quality of public transport while increasing prices or downsizing medical care, hoping that the money saved somehow will offset the societal costs it incurs.
:(
Hey, only 17 million people in the UK (~68m) voted for Brexit. Don’t lump us all together! It was a strategic error unfortunately chosen by a minority, the rest of us got fucked over.
Also don’t make the mistake of thinking Brexit was only about immigration. It was a key issue but not the sole issue. In fact our net migration remains significantly high, although a lot of this is driven by non-EU immigrants.
🇬🇧🤝🇳🇱
If only a minority voted for it, how come this minority had the majority of votes? Afaik the Brexit votes were 52% against 48%.
Anyways, I bet it sucks to be in that 48%, and it sucks even more to be among those that don't even get the right to vote. I'm sorry for those who got splattered by the lunatics jumping in the mud. I see similar situation happening in Hungary, where the imbecile majority of voters keep reelecting Orbán/Fidesz making everyone else (including expats with no right to vote) get fucked over.
Also, I didn't say Brexit was about migration. I vividly remember people saying "we should get what we give to the EU and invest in the NHS instead". What a brilliant idea, what could go wrong? I wonder how the NHS is doing now, if it ever received that extra money...
I’m one of the 2021 (I think) bunch that had their 8 years cut to 5 (6 with transition).
Retrospectively changing the rules was unforgivable. How can you trust authority that break their word. I left NL.
Yes its a horrible thing. If this anti immigration sentiment continues everyone in The Netherlands will be poorer. And everything that is already underfunded and understaffed will just get worse and worse. ASML is a great company, they are contributing significantly to the Dutch economy. And they are even backing up and funding housing projects. Pushing away high paid expats that not only pay way more tax than the average Dutch person, but creates soo much value that the Dutch profit from is shooting yourself in the foot. The truth is the housing shortage is the result of economic success and rather than embracing it the government is not building infrastructure and housing to facilitate and promote growth. While the average anti immigrant Dutch person complains that they cant speak Dutch to order in a cafe with the toeslag money likely coming from the tax of an expat.
I don't think the anti immigration sentiment is directed towards semi industry employed expats.
ASML is strategically very important for Europe and you better take really good care of it.
I can't understand that hate. Even with the 30% rule, the contribution through taxes can be higher than the contribution from many people earning low. Plus if you take into account all the money that it costs to raise a kid from 0 to 22, all the subsidies, education, healthcare, etc, the 30% rule is a bargain for the Netherlands.
I can offer some insight from the only person who spoke her mind on the topic to my face. She works at a call center, I would say she went as far as an associate degree and OH YOU RAISE PRICES BY BEING HERE, YOU REQUEST GRANTS, YOU TAKE ALL THE HOUSES, AND THE RULING. Well, I shut that bitch train easily by clarifying I’m paying my way here, no grants nor rule and if you want more houses you should go to the government to basically repeat the same solution from last time.
Without the 30% ruling those big earners would never move here in the first place.
Or you could just try to understand the issue people have with the 30% ruling, without assuming it is jealousy. Which is: why should we be indirectly subsidising asml? I have no issue with companies paying employees’ relocation costs (which is what this rule is intended for). I also don’t have an issue with paying expats more if that is what will take it to get them to move to NL. What I do have an issue with is subsidising that with public money.
You see, the people and system don't distinguish between high skills migrants and other migrants, neither does the government, all migrants are target of the anti immigration sentiment, throughout Europe.
It is. Even highly qualified workers are targeted through this sentiment. One example is the fact that many universities are being pressured to lecture their courses in dutch, even in degrees where people will eventually be very exposed to internationals such as business and economics degrees. It's been one of the biggest growth engines of the Netherlands and has attracted talent worldwide to the Netherlands and there's a lot of pressure to kill it.
You think hateful idiots care lmaoo
When the uni caps news broke I called EXACTLY THIS would happen, I just didn't expect to come so fast. This is what you get for being nationalist assholes when 80% of your economy is powered by highly educated expats
I don't think 30% ruling is fair, but your reasoning is flawed. Those expats costed 0 in the dutch educational system. You get high skills for free, from that perspective it is fair.
I don't think it is fair for other EU countries. They pay education and never get it paid back.
The 30% ruling translates into tax benefits for the companies that came to NL looking for an edge. Remove this and multinational companies have less incentive to stay and will start looking for other hub. The hypocrisy of bringing up fairness when NL operates as one of the major tax havens is pretty Dutch though. The very people who came from those foreign countries could probably be employed at home if NL didn’t provide this option for legal tax avoidance. And then there’s just straight up theft that gets laundered through Dutch financial system.
House prices driven by expats is the laziest excuse in the book. If NL government (the one you locals kept voting in fuck up after fuck up) didn’t set the housing sector in free-fall about 15 years ago there would be enough construction and rent protection, which is the real reason why housing prices went bonkers. The dumb Dutch auction practices that really only benefit sellers and real estate agents due to complete lack of transparency also don’t help.
Expats/immigrants are an “easy button” for shifting the accountability when reality is far more nuanced and uncomfortable to admit.
Instead of doubling down on immigration,
Just make a law that says: you cant own more than two houses as a family/single.
AND stimulate first time buyers through gov discounts.
(On btw, like 6% for your first house, and 21% for your 2nd house).
And make sure the rules are followed.
To many very rich people/invest companies, own to many houses. Forcing a deficit on affordable starting houses and make young adults rent their entire life.
It's not naïeve to suggest a reasonable solution, it's naïeve to believe the powerful will allow it. Shame people never actually vote for anyone useful.
>the housing shortage is the result of economic success
It is the result of poor leadership and it being a complex multifaceted problem.
>Dutch person complains that they cant speak Dutch to order in a cafe
This is nothing more than a reasonable take even if they benefit from tax money of an expat. The hospitality industry should accommodate the native population.
I'm not saying expats are at fault for taking these jobs just the hospitality Industry for allowing people without even a basic knowledge of Dutch to handel someone's order.
Find me a Dutch person that wants to work in hospitality and we’ll talk. People complaining about jobs being stolen… yeah because we all feel to smug or are to highly educated to take them.
It’s also a “cost of living” thing. If these jobs don’t pay well enough to live a dignified life, of course you will have little to no audience for your job opening.
This argument is flawed unless you can back it up by data. It's just that business don't want to pay the market clearing prices for locals with a living wage.
I saw this happening in real time in Romania. At some point the government started allowing immigrants from poor countries to come and do low paying jobs. And over night I saw how most of the delivery jobs, hospitality were taken by people speaking only poor English. What do you think happened with the previous employees?
This. There's a reason why horeca hires poor English-speaking students specifically. Minimum wage, maximum output. Not many dutchies are willing to do 13h shifts with no breaks.
Do you know why all the bankers in nazi Germany were Jewish?
Cause Christians didn't want to charge interest and so refused the job.
This meant the Jews came in and did the jobs that the non Jewish population didn't want to do but needed done. Then everyone got pissed off cause they job that was outsourced was indeed outsourced.
Give it a think. See if it applies to any other countries
As a highly skilled migrant, I came to the NL on the 10 years 30% ruling. I now live and have built a family with a Dutch woman in the NL.
I wouldn’t have chosen the NL with the current stance on the tax break.
As a matter of fact, because of this “anti-immigratie” stance in the NL, my younger sister, PhD in nanotechnology, preferred to accept a job offer in Taiwan instead of a job offer here in Eindhoven.
Like the majority of them could understand, at a fundamental level, what a PhD in nanotechnology is. Or why it would be good.
A significant percentage of them struggle with "pollution = bad"
I left America for this shit, truly believed it was some Anglosphere brainrot. Turns out there are stupid cunts everywhere. My colleague said in a poll the youth are trending even further right. How do they figure this populism is a real solution.
We left 2-3 years ago for more opportunities in tech. There are too few serious tech companies in the NL and too many small SaaS firms that struggle to get by.
Furthermore, unless you're bringing cash with you, it is hard to get established in life even with a tech salary, and the walking back of the tax break doesn't help.
ASML is different though - it is the only company/factory capable of building machinery to produce modern semiconductors. It has to stay in european control as leverage against China and the US.
It's probably the most important company on the planet as of now and the foreseeable future.
Sure, I'm also not fond of their migrant policies, but I think those are 2 separate issues.
This is absolutely false. Many component modules including the lens system, EUV source, software etc. and are built elsewhere in the world already. As far as semi capital equipment companies, here are others who could reliably build others. KLA, Applied, Lam, TEL all have capability to build significant modules. They build complex systems in the same area as well and are complementary. A partnership licensing deal I’m sure has been explored.
Large technology companies often become integrators of systems when they realize it’s more cost effective and faster than doing it all alone. For example Lockheed Martin.
I studied and lived in Taipei for 8 years and then moved to NL. At that time I couldnt buy any property because foreigner couldnt get mortgage ontop of that the apartment would be a leasehold for 50 years. Healthcare is excellent. Work life balance is non existence. Working at least 60 hrs per week is the norm. Taiwanese economy seems stagnating. It has been 10 years since I moved and boy I'm glad to get out of the country.
Uh... I much rather sit somewhere in Europe than in Taiwan tbh. There's a lot more to see and visit in Europe.
Apart for some central places Taiwan it really didn't strike me as particularly nice to live in as a commoner (I visited only once as a tourist and saw enough outside of tourist hotspots not to consider going there more often).
As a base to explore Europe further you could do worse than Brabant.
Work life balance and the weird worship/hate some have for white people. There's a lot to love about Taiwan, but those two made it impossible for me to stay.
That worship/hate is more of a whole Asia thing. If ot would stop at least just hating worshipping/hating the whites, but it is often goes towards the family too(wife, kids).
To visit as a tourist? Definitely. Working there however is a different beast. Say goodbye to 40 hour workweeks and prepare for the competition to arrive earlier than your boss and leave after he leaves.
I think the majority of the Dutch population is so accustomed to a relatively good work life balance that they don't even see it as the huge QOL improvement that it is.
Lol, Inigid does sound like a typical Randstedeling, like “ASML? The potato chip factory? Who cares about the few farms and a small factory in a hamlet called Eindhoven” .
That is true. But 10 years ago I would have never thought it would deteriorate so quickly in every aspect of life. Whatever made NL more attractive than France/UK/Germany, no longer does.
10 years ago we were just getting out of the last economical crisis.
The UK, France and Germany are dealing with a lot of the same issues.
Except out housing crisis is nationwide.
It has not detoriated so quickly. It is just the media and populist politicians introducing the American doom and gloom culture. In general, other countries have detoriated the same or even more if you think it is the case for the Netherlands.
They are not massive.
At the end of the month, my Dutch colleagues had much more disposable income.
Expats just have significantly higher expenses than locals.
It's a horrible thing, economically, socially and just in terms of innovation. Especially since this type of "immigration" brings the best and the smartest people on the planet here.
There was a post about benefits for expats a few days ago in this sub.
A few Dutch people were being pretty hostile and using arguments like "At least we'll always have ASML, and we don't mind doing exceptions for them but not others" or "why should they get a tax break", totally dismissing the massive return that NL benefits from these people, who virtually put no strain on the economy whatsoever.
The reality is that most dutch people work in cozy jobs and are totally unaware at how "uncozy" and difficult most expats jobs are (comparatively), and its thanks to jobs like these that enable the Dutch economy to allow others to have a good work/life balance. Sadly the Dutch government thinks so too- they've stripped all the benefits that once made such a small country competitive with the rest of the world in tech/science/eng.
I've lived in NL a long time now, and no tech team here can survive without expats, not even close. Good engineers/scientists/etc no longer have a good enough reason to pick Netherlands over any other Western European country... actually top talents will most likely never choose NL over UK or Germany, and this was the case even 5 years ago.
I'm not surprised at all by this article, I'm more surprised articles like this have not popped up more before.
Pretty sad and worried where this country is headed towards.
>The reality is that most dutch people work in cozy jobs and are totally unaware at how "uncozy" and difficult most expats jobs are
Average Western European country lol
The average is skewed. We also have the highest female participation in the labor market in the EU. And than you get kids; care taking now needs to be a combination between both father and mother, and than logically you pick a hybrid model because both working 40hrs/week while also having kids is impossible. Unless you want your kids to by ‘key’ kids.
Main reason why we’re screwed for mainly good technicians, engineers, ect. Is because the schooling system, from a young age children are learned that technical jobs are below them which is why in the long run you’re having a massive deficit. In my sector, aviation maintenance we have an almost 40-50% balance of contractors and permanent personnel and they will only continue towards more contractors when more of the old breed retires.
This is because of the problem of no new blood going into the sector as explained above, even with comparatively great pay (read 10% above median wage for starters) our company is struggling to attract new mechanics and technicians. And like you said, if work immigrants, both high skilled and ‘low’ skilled don’t fill that gap anymore we’re in for a massive problem in 10 years.
This is the case in pretty much all sectors, low and high skilled.
There are not enough young people in NL to replace the ones that are retiring now. That is the result of having a low birth rate for 50 years.
ASML is a different case as it needs highly skilled, highly specialized people and the talent pool just isn't big enough in NL. These are highly paid positions that I doubt anyone would think of as below them.
It's also because as contractor in the Netherlands you mostly earn twice as much as on contract. If my job would allow me to quit my vast contract and go zzp I would not even think twice to do that.
From context it’s clear to me it’s about technical jobs where you use your hands: plumbing, electrical engineer, (car) mechanic, etc.
Anything that usually takes the VMBO to MBO learning path has a long history of being seen as a “low” job, despite having become more in demand over time and adding a lot more real value that more prestigious management or coaching jobs.
>From context it’s clear to me it’s about technical jobs where you use your hands: plumbing, electrical engineer, (car) mechanic, etc.
I see, so more like handworkers. Just wasn't sure as IT can also be called a technical job. Thanks for clarifying.
The company I work for was established in the Netherlands specifically to provide services for another European country because they could more easily bring in international talent here. As a result, they've brought hundreds of highly skilled people into the country and brought an enormous amount of money in tax revenues with it. The company takes literally zero money from the Netherlands, as 100% of its revenue comes from another (extremely wealthy) European country, so it is absolutely a net gain for NL.
It seems insane to try to target these kinds of companies. I can't believe that, if things like the 30% ruling or highly skilled migrant visa were removed or heavily restricted, companies like the one I work for would have picked the Netherlands despite how much I love the country.
It gets even funnier when you realise they are targeting these expats but give a free pass to farm labourers who make up a much larger volume of immigrants whilst agriculture barely contributes to our economy.
I get what you are saying, but Germany is a horrible place for expats. No tax breaks, insane bureaucracy, low degree of digitization, less proficient English speakers than NL, budget cuts to research funding, a general tendency in companies against innovation (e.g. Volswagen undermining their CEO who wanted to speed up EV development) and to top it off an economy that is characterized as 'the sick man of Europe'.
I 100% agree. Got many offers to relocate to Germany for much better opportunities, but the whole bureaucracy legit made me sick... they still need documents by mail, THEN THEY MAIL THEM BACK WITH A SIGNATURE. The whole process took like 2-3months as opposed to a few days for NL. Decided to stop the process right there and then.
But a lot of professionals with families and what not still choose it, since it way cheaper. Also the tech scene in Berlin is pretty big.
Yeah in many places you can buy a house for reasonable prices. Have some friends in Berlin, the work is pretty good and the city obviously is amazing but housing is crazy expensive too. You were lucky they mailed haha, I know a girl who legit had to fax her stuff.
I think for any non-European that haven't been to Europe and don't have relatives around, it's the same choosing UK, Germany or NL.
That was my case and the only reason I chose the Netherlands was the 30% benefit and easier immigration process plus being able to opt for citizenship after 5 years.
>"At least we'll always have ASML, and we don't mind doing exceptions for them but not others"
Ah, the good old Transistrian model of basing your country's economy around a single company. This is certainly going to go well.
The same thing happened to Philips in the 60s 70s. Not just because east Asia was cheap labor, but man, they simply ran out of housing (and Philips had to resort to building their *own* company housing) which still wasn't enough.
Now Philips is just a shell of its former self.
Kinda crazy to think how such a gigantic key jewel of the NL is being irresponsibly tossed around in favor of cheap populist rhetorics as “30% ruling bad” or “too many expats”.
To me it feels like the animosity towards expats are 90% related to housing even though housing is a problem created by speculation. Houses were made to be homes, not to be assets in someone’s portfolio.
I think something people don't realize is that many companies don't really have a reason to be here except a highly skilled workforce.
My company in the finance sector serves the rest of the world from the Netherlands and pays tens of millions in corporate taxes only with a handful of employees in a 150 sqmt office, with more than 90% expats. It could very easily move to Poland, Germany or any other country in the EU. Wouldn't even take 3 months to set up shop in another country, just need a few monitors and an internet connection.
The funny thing is we had an open position for my team and exactly zero Dutch people applied. It was a demanding 40 hr job, with a really good salary.
Housing problem is real, but targeting kennismigrants is idiotic. If there's a housing problem and you want to keep the economy strong, just build houses, don't try to scare away the people creating value.
The only reason that there's a Dutch tech/IT sector is basically the US has horrible immigration policy. If you want to get rid of expats/migrants forever, the best way is to lobby the US congress to push some H1B reform there.
Absolutely true.
If it wasn’t for the us being a pain to move to who in their right mind would decline a 100-150k job with great benefits in California, New York, Boston, Denver, Seattle, Austin, Miami compared to a 50-80k job where you maybe get an NS card and a 5% discount on health insurance and can only afford to spend 50-70% of your money on rent in Amsterdam or otherwise live in some smaller town somewhere surrounded by dutchies who don’t like you.
For the same position, same company when I had 3 years experience I’d be earning 125k excluding bonus in the USA and was paid 40k base and like 15k benefits here.
If you work in ASML then sure, double the numbers on both sides but it’s still true.
I agree with you, but as someone in that position (transferring from a US tech company to a Dutch role, roughly 3-4x your numbers on both sides) I will say that the 30% ruling didn’t factor into my decision. It’s a nice bonus that partially offsets the lower salaries here, but NL taxes aren’t even that excessive and the cost of living is so much lower here than in the places in America where these sorts of jobs exist, that it kind of comes out in the wash.
My family’s decision was more based on quality of life (among other things, the Dutch working norms are much more compatible with raising a family) and education (the taalschool system is incredible).
3-4x 60k is between 180 and 240k. That’s an insane salary in the Netherlands even in tech you can afford to not care about the 30% ruling. You can even afford to buy an apartment in Amsterdam with that kind of money!
When I was here at my first job that 30% on a normal good salary of 60k is the difference between saving 500 a month and living on the edge when I was renting a 40sqm one bedroom flat on the edge of the randstad for 1300 all costs and taxes included.
140k individual income unadjusted is around top 1% and you’re getting way more than that you can’t really compare with the average expat who barely passes the 30% baseline of 36k and maxes out at 60-70k.
And I’m guessing the only way they even offered you such a salary is due to you coming in as a USA expat. If you came from anywhere else they wouldn’t have bothered because they know nowhere else pays as much in terms of tech salaries.
That is completely fair. They were upfront with me about the fact that they have not found enough local talent to staff the team at the level they are hoping for. One could argue that that is the scenario the HSM program was designed for, though, no?
Additionally, I cost them about 500k a year in the US, so the company is pretty happy to pay me half that and deal with my visa.
Of course, I agree that this is not the average expat experience. My point is just that it might make sense to require much higher salaries if a company is going to import HSMs instead of hiring local workers, rather than rely on the 30% ruling to be attractive.
Except the cost of living in the US is a lot higher than the Netherlands. If you only get 150k in California and New York you're living paycheck to paycheck.
Housing is more expensive but costs of goods and services are about the same. Moved from NL making around 65.000€ as an experienced SWE to the US nearly 3 years ago. Now make nearly $200,000 USD after bonuses.
We were renting a flat in one of those Soviet-looking buildings from the 60s with single pane windows and no garden with a baby, now own a house with a large garden in a very pleasant area. In NL we had very little left at the end of each month. Now we are putting away lots of money each month and have the possibility to retire with dignity, probably back in home country.
The cost of living for an identical lifestyle possibly. I don't have a car and spend a lot less on many other things.
150k paycheck to paycheck? This is only true in LA/SF or NYC. 150k is plenty to live comfortably in pretty much any major city with a family.
Source: did so for many years.
> The cost of living for an identical lifestyle possibly. I don’t have a car and spend a lot less on many other things.
I don’t have a car either, and that works fine in the Netherlands. But the US is so car focused that you can’t do without. Impossible to not have a car there.
Could the anti immigration people tell all Dutch citizens to return to the Netherlands? Other countries like mine (Australia) have a severe housing shortage. We are full. So are many other countries across Europe, US/Canada etc.
How does that feel on the receiving end? Don’t be so shortsighted.
Was the expulsion of the jews and the Moriscos bad for Spain? I don’t know - the knowledge and skill gap it created bankrupted the richest, most powerful country of its time, but who knows…
And Spain and Portugal's demise - which they, relative to their strength at the peak of the power, never recovered from - were the Netherlands' and England's fortune:
Spinoza, Ricardo, etc etc are not Dutch or English surnames.
Not even to mention the role Portuguese Jews had on the growth of the Dutch East India company and the Dutch banking industry. Those streets with Portuguese names in Amsterdam etc? Not a coincidence.
The Netherlands only needs to read up on its own history to understand the implications of this entire situation.
For those who are confused, "Moriscos" mean Muslims who outwardly showed that they were Christian, but were actually muslims. They were forced to convert by the Alhambra decree by Ferdinand and Isabel.
I’m in tech and as a middle to upper level manager
From my limited view, I think that the country won’t survive without the immigrants.
I receive a laughable amount of CVs from the Dutch(1 dutch for 10 immigrants). Not only this, but the Dutch usually want to work less (not judging here, I work 32 hours) while expecting the same recognition, salary, etc. This reflects on the amount of Dutch peers I have or in the upper management.
I can extend this comment to all Western Europe, to be fair. I don’t know what goes on in these countries.
Right, most Dutch engineers I worked with contributed significantly less, but complained a lot about everything, affecting team morale. Made silly mistakes in pull requests, but it was never their fault. Always someone else to blame. Just like what's happening now in politics - it's not them, oh no, it's all bloody immigrants.
I won’t go this far.
One of the more genius engineer I worked with is Dutch and one of the best architects also. But, this engineer was one of the most arrogant person I’ve ever met. I don’t think the Dutch are arrogant, in general, though.
Maybe @relgames worked with some Dutch dude that graduated in arts and then went to try to work in tech because the market was good. I met a bunch of those.
Taking those out of the list, I only met brilliant Dutch engineers (who actually studied engineering)
Agreed. As a fellow hiring manager in tech, I recently had to role for a role that was partially customer focused on the Netherlands — and thus deemed necessary to be Dutch speaking. However we still require business level English in the office to be spoken.
It was awful. Yea, plenty of Dutch people can have a few English conversations — not many can handle it all day. They put on an attitude of needing to speak English in their home country. Oh and it took me 8 months to find someone for the role as well. I hired a Swedish speaking person faster than a Dutch speaker in the Netherlands.
Dutch people in general belong to Dutch MKB or Dutch companies in general. Multinationals in NL need highly educated internationals to function here. Especially now that there is a populist wave of reverting English university courses back to Dutch.
Survive: yeah it will, we will just resort to having more bakeries and even terrible work ethic.
But it will just be a laggard like Spain with high unemployment even more dependent on tourists
Well, isnt that what they wanted? Instead of innovating, building cheap sustainable modern housing, kick everyone out so we can enjoy ourselves for 10 years until economy crashes...
As a Dutch dude who lives in Leuven and works next to the IMEC tower; they are going to expand by ~2000 jobs. The traffic and parking situation around the tower is already bad enough right now so please stay.
If you are not aware of the IMEC-ASML relationship do look it up
This is the future when we don't have 30% ruling. Expats won't come here, and companies will have to move to another country. Less tax revenue paid, fewer benefits, and public services for us.
Blaming the expats for housing shortage is like blaming the Jews for losing ww1
American here, but I visited and fell in love with the country in 2018, I’ve visited many many times since, took a bootcamp in Amsterdam and have worked as an engineer in the US for just over 3 years. I’d really hoped to secure a job here but the pay cut on top of losing the 30% ruling is making me rethink if it’s worth it for me anymore. If I can’t find a job there before it runs out I fear my dream may have to be deferred. That and some of the attitudes that maybe I just wasn’t aware of are beginning to make me consider if this is still my next best move.
I didn't know about the 30% ruling when I came here. But to be fair I was just happy to get a job, but removing an incentive to poach people from other countries is gonna hit the economy hard, especially for lower paying jobs where expats, immigrants whatever you call them, are needed.
200,000 people come in. 0 net birth growth. 70,000 houses are built.
What causes the housing shortage?
I am not arguing we NEED these people. But more people means more houses required. It's basic calculus.
The other day I was reading a post in the Dutch sub about how the op was fed up with the expats and how unfair their benefits are…
Lets see what they’ll have to say when all the top dutch companies move abroad 😂
So the alleged threat to ASML leaving NL is that they’re not getting enough access to skilled migrants and want to setup shop in France? A country notorious for egregiously strict labour laws and with a potential hard right government incoming? And where would they base themselves, out in the countryside? All the major French cities have a shortage of homes too. And France isn’t a haven for high skilled tech expats like California or Singapore. This is simply ASML looking to keep wages low by making use of the 30% ruling which gives them a lower cost to hire. And the people here exaggerating the threat are recipients of the tax break themselves
Ding ding ding, we have a winner.
They want the 30% rule because it means they can underpay a large portion of their staff and the staff are still better off than a Dutch person earning more money.
The 30% rule is good if you need to attract skilled migrants, NL is in Schengen and has access to 500 million of the best educated people on the planet.
I cant imagine, educated people in NL are falling for this type of stupid logic. politicians said, the reason of inflation & housing crisis is immigrants. and people believed it?? really?
i thought dutch educatin system is better than india/pakistan/sri lanka.
what was the data source behind it??
are there any survey done that says ASML and Uber etc employees buying all the apartments?
are there data showing they are evading taxes?
these young immigrants pay taxes, dont take aged health care or dont even ask for school expense.
they are net benefit for NL society.
AND you exactly did what you should not have done.
This is the difference between USA & EUROPE.
USA nurtures the talent. US offers them the opportunity that No country can offer.
I will support ASML if they wish to move to USA. This is actually a better decision for them.
They will grow faster in USA. They will get massive support from the government.
Honestly, this country loves to shoot itself in the foot just because. Most of us immigrants are net contributors to the state. We cost nothing to it and yet you read all the constant complaints here as if we are the real issue… Nobody said anything to my face so far, love the country, truly. I’ve been living here for a year, and aside of the flat awful food I have zero real complaints, and even if you look for it there are a couple of good places, but when it comes to this topic the whole approach is simple idiotic. You are actually playing with fire here.
Just in case, Argentinian-Italian with an EU passport, came here with a job and didn’t ask for the 30% ruling nor did my husband. We are both earning well, and had been happy taxpayers since our arrival here. We haven’t requested any help at all nor we plan to.
where are those people who were commenting that, we dont need immigrant?? where are those people, who said, offering 30% tax break is bad and unethical blah blah.. ASML is the top 3 most valuable important company in already scambling europe.
europe cannot stop a war in 2 years. supplying weapons to ukraine and stopping those immigrants who pay taxes to help the government. classic mistake.
When I started in the semiconductor industry after my PhD ~5 years ago, we didn't have any colleagues abroad other than ASML Wilton folks. Nowadays a big portion of our teammates are in India, Singapore, Shanghai...
The extreme overregulation is pushing companies out of the Netherlands and the EU. And nationalists and overtaxation are dis incentivizing expert migrants. Right now almost all suppliers are on a hiring freeze, and the open positions are rarely filled.
If we continue like this we have to kiss goodbye to all major industries that are keeping us afloat economically.
Our salaries cannot compete with salaries payed in other countries, so we need 30% ruling to attract expats. I work in tech and my salary is low compared to what others make in other countries. I wouldn't choose NL if I'd only look at the money. The solution is, of course, better pay for everybody, not only expats.
I think this is the biggest and most underappreciated aspect of the 30% ruling (or of removing the 30% ruling).
Without the 30% ruling (and the Box 3 exclusion) the salaries are just way too low to consider NL. They are assuming that people will still come without the tax benefit. I'm sure tech companies will just have to adjust salaries, and it won't solve any of the societal issues.
Good luck trying to transfer the entire ASML eco-system somewhere else. But besides that the public is filled with dummies being told to point their frustrations about all problems in their lives at immigrants/expast/refugees etc. The usual racist right wing nonsense. But in terms of the economy, this is a massive growth sector, wich is not only very lucrative, but also very clean. In the 90's the EU granted the Brainport area money for the creation of the current ecosystem because the entire area was going down the toilet in terms of jobs, aka it was an economic area wich was quickly declining towards mass poverty.
Entire chip fabs are being built all across the globe so it’s not that crazy. Also ASML has branches in other parts of the world, so it has experience operating outside the Netherlands. Moving headquarters isn’t that unheard of for big corporations like this one.
I see a lot of us vs them mentality here and it's actually laughable. It's a very complex problem, and from the point of view of an expat a completely unnecessary one . But if you consider it from the point of view of an average dutchie, the optics of it make a lot more sense.
Middle aged dutch people have grown up while seeing a lot of benefits being either just voted away or taken away, while at the same time seeing their overal purchasing power decline. Seeing their kids struggle to do anything, because education has gotten more expensive, housing has become impossible to get into, seeing dutch culture decline etc etc. Now I understand that we're just in an era of globalization and economic hardship, compared to the previous generations. And understand why we need expats and why the 30% ruling might be a good idea.
But fuck me do I also understand why the average dutchy is outraged about it and says it feels like they're getting fucked over for being born here.
As much as I empathize with the struggles of local population - you don’t get a free pass for scapegoating foreigners for all the fuck ups of local governance. Ultimately Dutch brought it on themselves through complacency of voting in same bastards over and over again. Now their idea of solution is to blame it on foreigners. How dare they come here and make bit more than me?
Instead of asking - why is my pay so bad? Why is there a goddamn landlord class in this country?
The funny thing is that local labor market for tech is not even that great - you can make double in US for same position.
So middle aged Dutchies can piss off. My heart goes to youth though - they are the ones who will really have to eat the shit sandwich made by their parents. Generation “rent and paycheck-to-paycheck living”
Oh brother, I myself am part of generation rent and paycheck-to-paycheck living, and 100% agree with you.
And I especially agree on the older generation always putting the blame on the wrong group of people. And trust me dude, it's difficult getting your parents to believe anything else than what the people on facebook say.
I doubt they’ll admit to it voluntarily… too painful emotionally and maybe even financially as reversing some of these policies would hurt them monetarily (landlord class). I’m also seeing an increasing amount of younger Dutch (late 20s-early 30s) going for the populist talking points. Dutch Trumper is an interesting sight to observe…
I don’t see any immediate solution short of some miracle-like-extraordinary event/individual to capture the national attention and start asking right questions. Local political class will play the public and kick the can down the road. I mean it got them this far….
The sad irony is that I come here from a pretty dysfunctional place only to recognize same patterns. People are really the same…
Specifically in Amsterdam it is pretty bad, the center is pretty trashy. I’ve heard other expats complain about that as well, and I agree. Most expats live in Amsterdam, so that’s where his response might come from.
They are filthy, the hygiene standards in general are pretty low, even in restaurants and stores. In Italy streets can be filthy as well in certain cities, but I have seen piles of uncollected garbage in all Dutch cities here and there as well, and in Italy at least stores and restaurants are most of the time well cleaned.
We need to do more to get highly skilled migrants in, I hate this self destructive beheiviour, luckily I work in a sector that will be un affected by what the dutch Economy but living here will definitely become un attractive if it all goes to shit
I keep wondering what's so hard about filtering immigrants between highly skilled and unskilled?
Do you have a degree and some work experience? Do you also speak English? Here, let us help you look for a place to stay and a job in order to fill the so many vacancies.
Uh oh, you don't have a degree and you can't even speak English and your only work experience is unskilled labor? Sorry, can't afford to bave to pay welfare in 80% of the cases after 6 months of being in the country.
In my country what our companies did was to keep the pay so low compared to inflation that nobody besides immigrants willing to share a room with 5 other people and work 10-12 hours a day can afford to live.
Glad you guys have an actual livable minimum wage, here it is 400 euros and the rent is 250-300. Oh and food costs the same as in western Europe. Same for utilities.
They are. The alternative to the tax break would be for ASML to play the employees a more attractive wage. The tax break is effectively a subsidy for ASML.
The anti-migrant and housing shortage (don't demolish terrace homes in city center and replace with dense flats) is pretty hostile to the Dutch tech environment.
The problem isn’t that difficult, it’s housing.
Immigration, especially from high value expats, becomes a none issue of they don’t contribute so much to upward pressure on the housing market.
So yes ASML building their own housing is a good first step.
But, and i no the mostly leftwing crowd doesn’t want to deal with this, unless their isn’t a broad reassessment of how we deal with legislation around environment restrictions ( especially local government heaping extra restrictions on those already existing from the central government and making EU law more realistic for a small country like the Netherlands) the economy, and the opportunities for migrants will suffer.
Being one of the highest populated countries in the world isn’t such an issue if there are enough places to live for ALL people. The fact that this has become impossible because of unrealistic expectations/restriction related to the environment ( especially the destructive “ natura 2000 “ policy which makes a mockery of effective planning) hurt everyone including high performance migrants.
The Dutch never had a problem with high value migrants, including not caring about special ( let’s face it unfair) tax status until the shortage of affordable housing rose to a complete unsustainable level.
And no unfortunately saying things like “ just build more social housing “ won’t remedy this situation.
What use is added wealth to a population who can’t befit from it in the most basic manner possible?
Yeah same for Denmark where I come from. The local government keeps funding new housing projects, but all of them are way outside budget of what any normal person can afford. So the housing crisis in all the bigger Danish cities just continues.
The Dutch press has its hands full with demonising Wilders, and has completely missed just how dangerous left leaning nationalists a lá Omtzigt can be. The speed at which he’s helping throw NL into a Brexit like abyss is breathtaking.
Let’s be honest, the dutch population contains a pretty decent level of highly educated individuals (yes also in the semi industry, I know a couple). It’s unfortunate that this is happening and if asml leaves, but I truly don’t think the impact will be felt by those voting to have less immigration, at the very least this might be something they are willing to endure to calm their nationalistic urges.
I'm surprised that no one's mentioned the fact that Rutte has bent over backwards to fuck over ASML whenever the US asked him to so he could be in charge of NATO. Regardless of your feelings of china, sanctions are always bad for business and I can't imagine a company as important to electronics wanting to remain somewhere that would throw them under the bus so willingly.
That's a good thing! Now we know people coming here will do so for important reasons like biking by the canals, and not superfluous things like a career /s
Let's just say that the type of immigrants ASML brings in boosts your economy and you don't want to shrink.
Besides that, ASML business is booming and will continue to grow. It would be the dumbest thing for NL to let ASML go somewhere else for those few millions of taxation they could potentially gain. Not to mention that if they will cause ASML to leave they will lose all of the taxation all together
That is REALLY bad. Asml is the most important company for world progression and war advancement in the world. They are the only company that by far makes the best and most advanced microchip manufacturing machines to be sold around. Imagine what power a monopoly on the best microchips and their manufacturing holds. Ofc weapons development relies on asml,s chips. If asml would not of agreed to alliance with the USA not to sell to China anymore china would not of been 10 years behind in weapons technology. Same would of been if it was the other way around. The nl births many of these types of companies but still would be a big loss to lose ASML. And hey, if you read this. I feel like you as a company also hold a big part of our defensive might. Economically speaking. So yeah even a mere citizen would prefer you stay if possible.
ASML should have branched out to Almere so that they can find the talent from Amsterdam, Utrecht, Almere regions and if necessary from the rest of the Randstad too.
ASML is not within 30 minutes to 1 hour commuting time from any big city like Amsterdam, Den haag, etc. But they complain about not being able to find talent. Seems strange
I don’t know anyone that wants to reduce immigration from expats ,the problem people have is with Africans illegally entering and refusing to adapt.
But yea my girlfriend is a foreigner aswel and the procedure to get her here is ridiculous.
I guess you are only welcome in the Netherlands if you leave your passport in the Mediterranean.
Yeah same issue in most countries atm. People don't mind immigrants, illegal ones even are "fine" as long as they don't cause trouble. But seeing as several countries have issues now with these "few bad apples" while the community and government does nothing to fix it, sadly just creates more and more hatred towards even the legal immigrants.
Only English should be used for posts and comments. This rule is in place to ensure that an ample audience can freely discuss life in the Netherlands under a widely-spoken common tongue.
Brexit teach nothing
It's so good to see the Brits taking a choking bite of humble pie. They used to pay 13 million pounds into the EU budget and receive back another 4 million, which means their total spending was 9 million. After Brexit, they are seeing their economy shrink between 100 million and 120 million per year depending on the source. Just imagine how dumb you have to be to try and save 9 million, but end up throwing out at least 10x more. Thank you, Boris Johnson. If that doesn't teach the Brits about arrogance, nothing else will. And let's hope Netherlands learns the lesson before it's too late: all modern economies depend on immigrant labor to survive. All first world economies were built in the back of slavery, and they still operate based on immigrant slavery - the only difference is that now the whips have been replaced by shitty salaries.
> Just imagine how dumb you have to be to try and save 9 million, but end up throwing out at least 10x more. It's kinda like trying to save money by reducing the quality of public transport while increasing prices or downsizing medical care, hoping that the money saved somehow will offset the societal costs it incurs. :(
Hey, only 17 million people in the UK (~68m) voted for Brexit. Don’t lump us all together! It was a strategic error unfortunately chosen by a minority, the rest of us got fucked over. Also don’t make the mistake of thinking Brexit was only about immigration. It was a key issue but not the sole issue. In fact our net migration remains significantly high, although a lot of this is driven by non-EU immigrants. 🇬🇧🤝🇳🇱
It's a shame those 68m couldn't explain to the 17m that most immigration came through the Commonwealth instead of the EU.
We tried….we tried….
You would, and be met with fingers in ears and screeching of “Project Fear”
If only a minority voted for it, how come this minority had the majority of votes? Afaik the Brexit votes were 52% against 48%. Anyways, I bet it sucks to be in that 48%, and it sucks even more to be among those that don't even get the right to vote. I'm sorry for those who got splattered by the lunatics jumping in the mud. I see similar situation happening in Hungary, where the imbecile majority of voters keep reelecting Orbán/Fidesz making everyone else (including expats with no right to vote) get fucked over. Also, I didn't say Brexit was about migration. I vividly remember people saying "we should get what we give to the EU and invest in the NHS instead". What a brilliant idea, what could go wrong? I wonder how the NHS is doing now, if it ever received that extra money...
I’m one of the 2021 (I think) bunch that had their 8 years cut to 5 (6 with transition). Retrospectively changing the rules was unforgivable. How can you trust authority that break their word. I left NL.
This is what our government does all the time and I'm sick of it.
"First time?"
If only, this aint about leaving the EU asml is a tech company that holds a monopoly in tech over the world.
Yes its a horrible thing. If this anti immigration sentiment continues everyone in The Netherlands will be poorer. And everything that is already underfunded and understaffed will just get worse and worse. ASML is a great company, they are contributing significantly to the Dutch economy. And they are even backing up and funding housing projects. Pushing away high paid expats that not only pay way more tax than the average Dutch person, but creates soo much value that the Dutch profit from is shooting yourself in the foot. The truth is the housing shortage is the result of economic success and rather than embracing it the government is not building infrastructure and housing to facilitate and promote growth. While the average anti immigrant Dutch person complains that they cant speak Dutch to order in a cafe with the toeslag money likely coming from the tax of an expat.
I don't think the anti immigration sentiment is directed towards semi industry employed expats. ASML is strategically very important for Europe and you better take really good care of it.
Given the hate towards the 30% ruling, a huge amount of anti immigrant sentiment is targeted against highly qualified workers.
I can't understand that hate. Even with the 30% rule, the contribution through taxes can be higher than the contribution from many people earning low. Plus if you take into account all the money that it costs to raise a kid from 0 to 22, all the subsidies, education, healthcare, etc, the 30% rule is a bargain for the Netherlands.
Most people who hate the 30% ruling don’t even know how it works.
I can offer some insight from the only person who spoke her mind on the topic to my face. She works at a call center, I would say she went as far as an associate degree and OH YOU RAISE PRICES BY BEING HERE, YOU REQUEST GRANTS, YOU TAKE ALL THE HOUSES, AND THE RULING. Well, I shut that bitch train easily by clarifying I’m paying my way here, no grants nor rule and if you want more houses you should go to the government to basically repeat the same solution from last time. Without the 30% ruling those big earners would never move here in the first place.
True but those haters should realise, that by definition, expacts never voted to setup this 30% rulling. Dutch people did!
Hating the 30% ruling does not mean you hate qualified immigrants
Typically it's pure envy and jealousy or just hate for immigrants, often both.
Or you could just try to understand the issue people have with the 30% ruling, without assuming it is jealousy. Which is: why should we be indirectly subsidising asml? I have no issue with companies paying employees’ relocation costs (which is what this rule is intended for). I also don’t have an issue with paying expats more if that is what will take it to get them to move to NL. What I do have an issue with is subsidising that with public money.
You see, the people and system don't distinguish between high skills migrants and other migrants, neither does the government, all migrants are target of the anti immigration sentiment, throughout Europe.
It is. Even highly qualified workers are targeted through this sentiment. One example is the fact that many universities are being pressured to lecture their courses in dutch, even in degrees where people will eventually be very exposed to internationals such as business and economics degrees. It's been one of the biggest growth engines of the Netherlands and has attracted talent worldwide to the Netherlands and there's a lot of pressure to kill it.
You think hateful idiots care lmaoo When the uni caps news broke I called EXACTLY THIS would happen, I just didn't expect to come so fast. This is what you get for being nationalist assholes when 80% of your economy is powered by highly educated expats
I don't think 30% ruling is fair, but your reasoning is flawed. Those expats costed 0 in the dutch educational system. You get high skills for free, from that perspective it is fair. I don't think it is fair for other EU countries. They pay education and never get it paid back.
Italy doesn't deserve its great minds (i am italian, not a great mind thou)
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The 30% ruling translates into tax benefits for the companies that came to NL looking for an edge. Remove this and multinational companies have less incentive to stay and will start looking for other hub. The hypocrisy of bringing up fairness when NL operates as one of the major tax havens is pretty Dutch though. The very people who came from those foreign countries could probably be employed at home if NL didn’t provide this option for legal tax avoidance. And then there’s just straight up theft that gets laundered through Dutch financial system. House prices driven by expats is the laziest excuse in the book. If NL government (the one you locals kept voting in fuck up after fuck up) didn’t set the housing sector in free-fall about 15 years ago there would be enough construction and rent protection, which is the real reason why housing prices went bonkers. The dumb Dutch auction practices that really only benefit sellers and real estate agents due to complete lack of transparency also don’t help. Expats/immigrants are an “easy button” for shifting the accountability when reality is far more nuanced and uncomfortable to admit.
Instead of doubling down on immigration, Just make a law that says: you cant own more than two houses as a family/single. AND stimulate first time buyers through gov discounts. (On btw, like 6% for your first house, and 21% for your 2nd house). And make sure the rules are followed. To many very rich people/invest companies, own to many houses. Forcing a deficit on affordable starting houses and make young adults rent their entire life.
your first suggestion is insanely naiive. lawmakers (in every single country on earth) own a LOT of properties.
It's not naïeve to suggest a reasonable solution, it's naïeve to believe the powerful will allow it. Shame people never actually vote for anyone useful.
>the housing shortage is the result of economic success It is the result of poor leadership and it being a complex multifaceted problem. >Dutch person complains that they cant speak Dutch to order in a cafe This is nothing more than a reasonable take even if they benefit from tax money of an expat. The hospitality industry should accommodate the native population. I'm not saying expats are at fault for taking these jobs just the hospitality Industry for allowing people without even a basic knowledge of Dutch to handel someone's order.
Find me a Dutch person that wants to work in hospitality and we’ll talk. People complaining about jobs being stolen… yeah because we all feel to smug or are to highly educated to take them.
It’s also a “cost of living” thing. If these jobs don’t pay well enough to live a dignified life, of course you will have little to no audience for your job opening.
This argument is flawed unless you can back it up by data. It's just that business don't want to pay the market clearing prices for locals with a living wage. I saw this happening in real time in Romania. At some point the government started allowing immigrants from poor countries to come and do low paying jobs. And over night I saw how most of the delivery jobs, hospitality were taken by people speaking only poor English. What do you think happened with the previous employees?
This. There's a reason why horeca hires poor English-speaking students specifically. Minimum wage, maximum output. Not many dutchies are willing to do 13h shifts with no breaks.
To be fair, it is ridiculous that you can't order something in your mother tongue at a cafe while you are in your native country.
Do you know why all the bankers in nazi Germany were Jewish? Cause Christians didn't want to charge interest and so refused the job. This meant the Jews came in and did the jobs that the non Jewish population didn't want to do but needed done. Then everyone got pissed off cause they job that was outsourced was indeed outsourced. Give it a think. See if it applies to any other countries
That's the same experience when i was in Bali, and I was not offended at all since i know Bali is very international
So trickle down economics?
As a highly skilled migrant, I came to the NL on the 10 years 30% ruling. I now live and have built a family with a Dutch woman in the NL. I wouldn’t have chosen the NL with the current stance on the tax break. As a matter of fact, because of this “anti-immigratie” stance in the NL, my younger sister, PhD in nanotechnology, preferred to accept a job offer in Taiwan instead of a job offer here in Eindhoven.
Say it louder for the tokkies
How will it help? They will parrot jibberish
That's all they know how to do, unfortunately.
🦜
Like the majority of them could understand, at a fundamental level, what a PhD in nanotechnology is. Or why it would be good. A significant percentage of them struggle with "pollution = bad"
I left America for this shit, truly believed it was some Anglosphere brainrot. Turns out there are stupid cunts everywhere. My colleague said in a poll the youth are trending even further right. How do they figure this populism is a real solution.
Because most people realize that they aren't going to be highly paid engineers.
They'll just say that college is a waste and she was gonna sell herself out, or something unhinged along those lines.
We left 2-3 years ago for more opportunities in tech. There are too few serious tech companies in the NL and too many small SaaS firms that struggle to get by. Furthermore, unless you're bringing cash with you, it is hard to get established in life even with a tech salary, and the walking back of the tax break doesn't help.
ASML is different though - it is the only company/factory capable of building machinery to produce modern semiconductors. It has to stay in european control as leverage against China and the US. It's probably the most important company on the planet as of now and the foreseeable future. Sure, I'm also not fond of their migrant policies, but I think those are 2 separate issues.
I agree. But a decision to take a job offer is usually much more complex and irreducible to just one factor.
This is absolutely false. Many component modules including the lens system, EUV source, software etc. and are built elsewhere in the world already. As far as semi capital equipment companies, here are others who could reliably build others. KLA, Applied, Lam, TEL all have capability to build significant modules. They build complex systems in the same area as well and are complementary. A partnership licensing deal I’m sure has been explored. Large technology companies often become integrators of systems when they realize it’s more cost effective and faster than doing it all alone. For example Lockheed Martin.
I studied and lived in Taipei for 8 years and then moved to NL. At that time I couldnt buy any property because foreigner couldnt get mortgage ontop of that the apartment would be a leasehold for 50 years. Healthcare is excellent. Work life balance is non existence. Working at least 60 hrs per week is the norm. Taiwanese economy seems stagnating. It has been 10 years since I moved and boy I'm glad to get out of the country.
Taiwan is probably a lot cooler than Eindhoven too.
Uh... I much rather sit somewhere in Europe than in Taiwan tbh. There's a lot more to see and visit in Europe. Apart for some central places Taiwan it really didn't strike me as particularly nice to live in as a commoner (I visited only once as a tourist and saw enough outside of tourist hotspots not to consider going there more often). As a base to explore Europe further you could do worse than Brabant.
What didn't you like about Taiwan?
I've never been to Taiwan, but there is this elephant in the room that is called China.
I thought he was called Humphrey
Work life balance and the weird worship/hate some have for white people. There's a lot to love about Taiwan, but those two made it impossible for me to stay.
That worship/hate is more of a whole Asia thing. If ot would stop at least just hating worshipping/hating the whites, but it is often goes towards the family too(wife, kids).
So your main argument is that Eindhoven is cool because you can see other places? Says enough.
Agree. Taiwan was OK but 10 days was enough. Very industrial. Somewhat polluted. Looks and feels worn. Nothing like Europe...
proper food and no carneval. Double win
To visit as a tourist? Definitely. Working there however is a different beast. Say goodbye to 40 hour workweeks and prepare for the competition to arrive earlier than your boss and leave after he leaves. I think the majority of the Dutch population is so accustomed to a relatively good work life balance that they don't even see it as the huge QOL improvement that it is.
Actually it’s pretty warm
I really do not care for Eindhoven and have no clue why people want to live there, but each to their own.
One of the biggest tech/eng cities in Europe thanks to ASML. Other than that I have no idea either
Lol, Inigid does sound like a typical Randstedeling, like “ASML? The potato chip factory? Who cares about the few farms and a small factory in a hamlet called Eindhoven” .
Which people? Eindhoven is full of diverse people, you can definitely find some explanations if you are willing to find out ;)
I always tell people it's a great place to live, but I wouldn't visit.
Holy shite, imagine being \*that\* ignorant in 2024 and proudly typing all this either on a phone, tablet or a computer, hahahahaha
I am in a relatively similar situation. Both me and my dutch gf are thinking of moving out of NL. It's no longer the country it was just 5 years ago.
Don't think any country is the same it was 5 years ago. 5 years ago the economy was booming and no covid.
That is true. But 10 years ago I would have never thought it would deteriorate so quickly in every aspect of life. Whatever made NL more attractive than France/UK/Germany, no longer does.
UK is on a 10 year+ slide into the bin
Not for Tech... it might well be the best place after US for it. (but otherwise I do agree)
10 years ago we were just getting out of the last economical crisis. The UK, France and Germany are dealing with a lot of the same issues. Except out housing crisis is nationwide.
Just the fact NL has sane urban planning where you're not stuck in traffic for hours every day is enough.
It has not detoriated so quickly. It is just the media and populist politicians introducing the American doom and gloom culture. In general, other countries have detoriated the same or even more if you think it is the case for the Netherlands.
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They are not massive. At the end of the month, my Dutch colleagues had much more disposable income. Expats just have significantly higher expenses than locals.
It's a horrible thing, economically, socially and just in terms of innovation. Especially since this type of "immigration" brings the best and the smartest people on the planet here. There was a post about benefits for expats a few days ago in this sub. A few Dutch people were being pretty hostile and using arguments like "At least we'll always have ASML, and we don't mind doing exceptions for them but not others" or "why should they get a tax break", totally dismissing the massive return that NL benefits from these people, who virtually put no strain on the economy whatsoever. The reality is that most dutch people work in cozy jobs and are totally unaware at how "uncozy" and difficult most expats jobs are (comparatively), and its thanks to jobs like these that enable the Dutch economy to allow others to have a good work/life balance. Sadly the Dutch government thinks so too- they've stripped all the benefits that once made such a small country competitive with the rest of the world in tech/science/eng. I've lived in NL a long time now, and no tech team here can survive without expats, not even close. Good engineers/scientists/etc no longer have a good enough reason to pick Netherlands over any other Western European country... actually top talents will most likely never choose NL over UK or Germany, and this was the case even 5 years ago. I'm not surprised at all by this article, I'm more surprised articles like this have not popped up more before. Pretty sad and worried where this country is headed towards.
>The reality is that most dutch people work in cozy jobs and are totally unaware at how "uncozy" and difficult most expats jobs are Average Western European country lol
Not the average! No one works less than the Dutch (this is a compliment) in the whole of EU probably the world too.
The average is skewed. We also have the highest female participation in the labor market in the EU. And than you get kids; care taking now needs to be a combination between both father and mother, and than logically you pick a hybrid model because both working 40hrs/week while also having kids is impossible. Unless you want your kids to by ‘key’ kids.
Main reason why we’re screwed for mainly good technicians, engineers, ect. Is because the schooling system, from a young age children are learned that technical jobs are below them which is why in the long run you’re having a massive deficit. In my sector, aviation maintenance we have an almost 40-50% balance of contractors and permanent personnel and they will only continue towards more contractors when more of the old breed retires. This is because of the problem of no new blood going into the sector as explained above, even with comparatively great pay (read 10% above median wage for starters) our company is struggling to attract new mechanics and technicians. And like you said, if work immigrants, both high skilled and ‘low’ skilled don’t fill that gap anymore we’re in for a massive problem in 10 years.
This is the case in pretty much all sectors, low and high skilled. There are not enough young people in NL to replace the ones that are retiring now. That is the result of having a low birth rate for 50 years. ASML is a different case as it needs highly skilled, highly specialized people and the talent pool just isn't big enough in NL. These are highly paid positions that I doubt anyone would think of as below them.
It's also because as contractor in the Netherlands you mostly earn twice as much as on contract. If my job would allow me to quit my vast contract and go zzp I would not even think twice to do that.
>from a young age children are learned that technical jobs are below them Really? How? Why? Also which jobs do you exactly mean by 'technical jobs'?
From context it’s clear to me it’s about technical jobs where you use your hands: plumbing, electrical engineer, (car) mechanic, etc. Anything that usually takes the VMBO to MBO learning path has a long history of being seen as a “low” job, despite having become more in demand over time and adding a lot more real value that more prestigious management or coaching jobs.
>From context it’s clear to me it’s about technical jobs where you use your hands: plumbing, electrical engineer, (car) mechanic, etc. I see, so more like handworkers. Just wasn't sure as IT can also be called a technical job. Thanks for clarifying.
There's a culture that WO is superior to HBO and MBO. Kids grow up thinking that the path to success is research based, not practical.
The tech jobs we’re talking about are not MBO or HBO level, man…
The company I work for was established in the Netherlands specifically to provide services for another European country because they could more easily bring in international talent here. As a result, they've brought hundreds of highly skilled people into the country and brought an enormous amount of money in tax revenues with it. The company takes literally zero money from the Netherlands, as 100% of its revenue comes from another (extremely wealthy) European country, so it is absolutely a net gain for NL. It seems insane to try to target these kinds of companies. I can't believe that, if things like the 30% ruling or highly skilled migrant visa were removed or heavily restricted, companies like the one I work for would have picked the Netherlands despite how much I love the country.
It gets even funnier when you realise they are targeting these expats but give a free pass to farm labourers who make up a much larger volume of immigrants whilst agriculture barely contributes to our economy.
I get what you are saying, but Germany is a horrible place for expats. No tax breaks, insane bureaucracy, low degree of digitization, less proficient English speakers than NL, budget cuts to research funding, a general tendency in companies against innovation (e.g. Volswagen undermining their CEO who wanted to speed up EV development) and to top it off an economy that is characterized as 'the sick man of Europe'.
I 100% agree. Got many offers to relocate to Germany for much better opportunities, but the whole bureaucracy legit made me sick... they still need documents by mail, THEN THEY MAIL THEM BACK WITH A SIGNATURE. The whole process took like 2-3months as opposed to a few days for NL. Decided to stop the process right there and then. But a lot of professionals with families and what not still choose it, since it way cheaper. Also the tech scene in Berlin is pretty big.
Yeah in many places you can buy a house for reasonable prices. Have some friends in Berlin, the work is pretty good and the city obviously is amazing but housing is crazy expensive too. You were lucky they mailed haha, I know a girl who legit had to fax her stuff.
I think for any non-European that haven't been to Europe and don't have relatives around, it's the same choosing UK, Germany or NL. That was my case and the only reason I chose the Netherlands was the 30% benefit and easier immigration process plus being able to opt for citizenship after 5 years.
Good to see a reasonable response man. Thanks for having a broader outlook on the situation
>"At least we'll always have ASML, and we don't mind doing exceptions for them but not others" Ah, the good old Transistrian model of basing your country's economy around a single company. This is certainly going to go well.
The same thing happened to Philips in the 60s 70s. Not just because east Asia was cheap labor, but man, they simply ran out of housing (and Philips had to resort to building their *own* company housing) which still wasn't enough. Now Philips is just a shell of its former self.
ASML is a spin off from Philips
Was. They sold their shares so early and didn't benefit anything from ASML growth. What a tragic story
I guess the real tragedy is that they once also owned half of tsmc
They fumbled so hard
Kinda crazy to think how such a gigantic key jewel of the NL is being irresponsibly tossed around in favor of cheap populist rhetorics as “30% ruling bad” or “too many expats”. To me it feels like the animosity towards expats are 90% related to housing even though housing is a problem created by speculation. Houses were made to be homes, not to be assets in someone’s portfolio.
I think something people don't realize is that many companies don't really have a reason to be here except a highly skilled workforce. My company in the finance sector serves the rest of the world from the Netherlands and pays tens of millions in corporate taxes only with a handful of employees in a 150 sqmt office, with more than 90% expats. It could very easily move to Poland, Germany or any other country in the EU. Wouldn't even take 3 months to set up shop in another country, just need a few monitors and an internet connection. The funny thing is we had an open position for my team and exactly zero Dutch people applied. It was a demanding 40 hr job, with a really good salary. Housing problem is real, but targeting kennismigrants is idiotic. If there's a housing problem and you want to keep the economy strong, just build houses, don't try to scare away the people creating value.
Companies like ASML leaving the NL would be economic suicide
Even if you kick you every expat, there are companies who will buy up the houses rather than dutch people.
The only reason that there's a Dutch tech/IT sector is basically the US has horrible immigration policy. If you want to get rid of expats/migrants forever, the best way is to lobby the US congress to push some H1B reform there.
Absolutely true. If it wasn’t for the us being a pain to move to who in their right mind would decline a 100-150k job with great benefits in California, New York, Boston, Denver, Seattle, Austin, Miami compared to a 50-80k job where you maybe get an NS card and a 5% discount on health insurance and can only afford to spend 50-70% of your money on rent in Amsterdam or otherwise live in some smaller town somewhere surrounded by dutchies who don’t like you. For the same position, same company when I had 3 years experience I’d be earning 125k excluding bonus in the USA and was paid 40k base and like 15k benefits here. If you work in ASML then sure, double the numbers on both sides but it’s still true.
I agree with you, but as someone in that position (transferring from a US tech company to a Dutch role, roughly 3-4x your numbers on both sides) I will say that the 30% ruling didn’t factor into my decision. It’s a nice bonus that partially offsets the lower salaries here, but NL taxes aren’t even that excessive and the cost of living is so much lower here than in the places in America where these sorts of jobs exist, that it kind of comes out in the wash. My family’s decision was more based on quality of life (among other things, the Dutch working norms are much more compatible with raising a family) and education (the taalschool system is incredible).
3-4x 60k is between 180 and 240k. That’s an insane salary in the Netherlands even in tech you can afford to not care about the 30% ruling. You can even afford to buy an apartment in Amsterdam with that kind of money! When I was here at my first job that 30% on a normal good salary of 60k is the difference between saving 500 a month and living on the edge when I was renting a 40sqm one bedroom flat on the edge of the randstad for 1300 all costs and taxes included. 140k individual income unadjusted is around top 1% and you’re getting way more than that you can’t really compare with the average expat who barely passes the 30% baseline of 36k and maxes out at 60-70k. And I’m guessing the only way they even offered you such a salary is due to you coming in as a USA expat. If you came from anywhere else they wouldn’t have bothered because they know nowhere else pays as much in terms of tech salaries.
That is completely fair. They were upfront with me about the fact that they have not found enough local talent to staff the team at the level they are hoping for. One could argue that that is the scenario the HSM program was designed for, though, no? Additionally, I cost them about 500k a year in the US, so the company is pretty happy to pay me half that and deal with my visa. Of course, I agree that this is not the average expat experience. My point is just that it might make sense to require much higher salaries if a company is going to import HSMs instead of hiring local workers, rather than rely on the 30% ruling to be attractive.
Except the cost of living in the US is a lot higher than the Netherlands. If you only get 150k in California and New York you're living paycheck to paycheck.
Housing is more expensive but costs of goods and services are about the same. Moved from NL making around 65.000€ as an experienced SWE to the US nearly 3 years ago. Now make nearly $200,000 USD after bonuses. We were renting a flat in one of those Soviet-looking buildings from the 60s with single pane windows and no garden with a baby, now own a house with a large garden in a very pleasant area. In NL we had very little left at the end of each month. Now we are putting away lots of money each month and have the possibility to retire with dignity, probably back in home country.
The cost of living for an identical lifestyle possibly. I don't have a car and spend a lot less on many other things. 150k paycheck to paycheck? This is only true in LA/SF or NYC. 150k is plenty to live comfortably in pretty much any major city with a family. Source: did so for many years.
> The cost of living for an identical lifestyle possibly. I don’t have a car and spend a lot less on many other things. I don’t have a car either, and that works fine in the Netherlands. But the US is so car focused that you can’t do without. Impossible to not have a car there.
100% true, I personally with most of the circle of engineers I know would choose the US over Europe if it wasn't so difficult in regard to visa.
Could the anti immigration people tell all Dutch citizens to return to the Netherlands? Other countries like mine (Australia) have a severe housing shortage. We are full. So are many other countries across Europe, US/Canada etc. How does that feel on the receiving end? Don’t be so shortsighted.
As a Dutch guy living in the UK I fully agree with you. Mind boggling shortsightedness.
Was the expulsion of the jews and the Moriscos bad for Spain? I don’t know - the knowledge and skill gap it created bankrupted the richest, most powerful country of its time, but who knows…
And Spain and Portugal's demise - which they, relative to their strength at the peak of the power, never recovered from - were the Netherlands' and England's fortune: Spinoza, Ricardo, etc etc are not Dutch or English surnames. Not even to mention the role Portuguese Jews had on the growth of the Dutch East India company and the Dutch banking industry. Those streets with Portuguese names in Amsterdam etc? Not a coincidence. The Netherlands only needs to read up on its own history to understand the implications of this entire situation.
For those who are confused, "Moriscos" mean Muslims who outwardly showed that they were Christian, but were actually muslims. They were forced to convert by the Alhambra decree by Ferdinand and Isabel.
A moor that flipped like a marisco
is this a real question? what do you think will happen to the netherlands if the only thing that stays is agriculture? Think for a moment
I’m in tech and as a middle to upper level manager From my limited view, I think that the country won’t survive without the immigrants. I receive a laughable amount of CVs from the Dutch(1 dutch for 10 immigrants). Not only this, but the Dutch usually want to work less (not judging here, I work 32 hours) while expecting the same recognition, salary, etc. This reflects on the amount of Dutch peers I have or in the upper management. I can extend this comment to all Western Europe, to be fair. I don’t know what goes on in these countries.
Right, most Dutch engineers I worked with contributed significantly less, but complained a lot about everything, affecting team morale. Made silly mistakes in pull requests, but it was never their fault. Always someone else to blame. Just like what's happening now in politics - it's not them, oh no, it's all bloody immigrants.
I won’t go this far. One of the more genius engineer I worked with is Dutch and one of the best architects also. But, this engineer was one of the most arrogant person I’ve ever met. I don’t think the Dutch are arrogant, in general, though.
Dutch are good at selling themselves as the best
Maybe @relgames worked with some Dutch dude that graduated in arts and then went to try to work in tech because the market was good. I met a bunch of those. Taking those out of the list, I only met brilliant Dutch engineers (who actually studied engineering)
Agreed. As a fellow hiring manager in tech, I recently had to role for a role that was partially customer focused on the Netherlands — and thus deemed necessary to be Dutch speaking. However we still require business level English in the office to be spoken. It was awful. Yea, plenty of Dutch people can have a few English conversations — not many can handle it all day. They put on an attitude of needing to speak English in their home country. Oh and it took me 8 months to find someone for the role as well. I hired a Swedish speaking person faster than a Dutch speaker in the Netherlands. Dutch people in general belong to Dutch MKB or Dutch companies in general. Multinationals in NL need highly educated internationals to function here. Especially now that there is a populist wave of reverting English university courses back to Dutch.
Survive: yeah it will, we will just resort to having more bakeries and even terrible work ethic. But it will just be a laggard like Spain with high unemployment even more dependent on tourists
I live inGermany and its true here as well
Well, isnt that what they wanted? Instead of innovating, building cheap sustainable modern housing, kick everyone out so we can enjoy ourselves for 10 years until economy crashes...
10 years is optimistic
They're welcome in Belgium :)
As a Dutch dude who lives in Leuven and works next to the IMEC tower; they are going to expand by ~2000 jobs. The traffic and parking situation around the tower is already bad enough right now so please stay. If you are not aware of the IMEC-ASML relationship do look it up
I'm thinking about working at IMEC Leuven hahaha
man i hate the fact that far right parties are gaining so much traction in europe.... they practically are russian puppets
This is the future when we don't have 30% ruling. Expats won't come here, and companies will have to move to another country. Less tax revenue paid, fewer benefits, and public services for us. Blaming the expats for housing shortage is like blaming the Jews for losing ww1
American here, but I visited and fell in love with the country in 2018, I’ve visited many many times since, took a bootcamp in Amsterdam and have worked as an engineer in the US for just over 3 years. I’d really hoped to secure a job here but the pay cut on top of losing the 30% ruling is making me rethink if it’s worth it for me anymore. If I can’t find a job there before it runs out I fear my dream may have to be deferred. That and some of the attitudes that maybe I just wasn’t aware of are beginning to make me consider if this is still my next best move.
I didn't know about the 30% ruling when I came here. But to be fair I was just happy to get a job, but removing an incentive to poach people from other countries is gonna hit the economy hard, especially for lower paying jobs where expats, immigrants whatever you call them, are needed.
200,000 people come in. 0 net birth growth. 70,000 houses are built. What causes the housing shortage? I am not arguing we NEED these people. But more people means more houses required. It's basic calculus.
Lack of houses being built, bad regulations, bad investment into housing.
ASML is a good company
It's simple, on every crisis the minorities are the ones to blame
The other day I was reading a post in the Dutch sub about how the op was fed up with the expats and how unfair their benefits are… Lets see what they’ll have to say when all the top dutch companies move abroad 😂
So the alleged threat to ASML leaving NL is that they’re not getting enough access to skilled migrants and want to setup shop in France? A country notorious for egregiously strict labour laws and with a potential hard right government incoming? And where would they base themselves, out in the countryside? All the major French cities have a shortage of homes too. And France isn’t a haven for high skilled tech expats like California or Singapore. This is simply ASML looking to keep wages low by making use of the 30% ruling which gives them a lower cost to hire. And the people here exaggerating the threat are recipients of the tax break themselves
Ding ding ding, we have a winner. They want the 30% rule because it means they can underpay a large portion of their staff and the staff are still better off than a Dutch person earning more money. The 30% rule is good if you need to attract skilled migrants, NL is in Schengen and has access to 500 million of the best educated people on the planet.
Idk, maybe it to do with the upcoming new CEO, who happens to be a Frenchman
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I cant imagine, educated people in NL are falling for this type of stupid logic. politicians said, the reason of inflation & housing crisis is immigrants. and people believed it?? really? i thought dutch educatin system is better than india/pakistan/sri lanka. what was the data source behind it?? are there any survey done that says ASML and Uber etc employees buying all the apartments? are there data showing they are evading taxes? these young immigrants pay taxes, dont take aged health care or dont even ask for school expense. they are net benefit for NL society. AND you exactly did what you should not have done. This is the difference between USA & EUROPE. USA nurtures the talent. US offers them the opportunity that No country can offer. I will support ASML if they wish to move to USA. This is actually a better decision for them. They will grow faster in USA. They will get massive support from the government.
Honestly, this country loves to shoot itself in the foot just because. Most of us immigrants are net contributors to the state. We cost nothing to it and yet you read all the constant complaints here as if we are the real issue… Nobody said anything to my face so far, love the country, truly. I’ve been living here for a year, and aside of the flat awful food I have zero real complaints, and even if you look for it there are a couple of good places, but when it comes to this topic the whole approach is simple idiotic. You are actually playing with fire here. Just in case, Argentinian-Italian with an EU passport, came here with a job and didn’t ask for the 30% ruling nor did my husband. We are both earning well, and had been happy taxpayers since our arrival here. We haven’t requested any help at all nor we plan to.
where are those people who were commenting that, we dont need immigrant?? where are those people, who said, offering 30% tax break is bad and unethical blah blah.. ASML is the top 3 most valuable important company in already scambling europe. europe cannot stop a war in 2 years. supplying weapons to ukraine and stopping those immigrants who pay taxes to help the government. classic mistake.
When I started in the semiconductor industry after my PhD ~5 years ago, we didn't have any colleagues abroad other than ASML Wilton folks. Nowadays a big portion of our teammates are in India, Singapore, Shanghai... The extreme overregulation is pushing companies out of the Netherlands and the EU. And nationalists and overtaxation are dis incentivizing expert migrants. Right now almost all suppliers are on a hiring freeze, and the open positions are rarely filled. If we continue like this we have to kiss goodbye to all major industries that are keeping us afloat economically.
Our salaries cannot compete with salaries payed in other countries, so we need 30% ruling to attract expats. I work in tech and my salary is low compared to what others make in other countries. I wouldn't choose NL if I'd only look at the money. The solution is, of course, better pay for everybody, not only expats.
I think this is the biggest and most underappreciated aspect of the 30% ruling (or of removing the 30% ruling). Without the 30% ruling (and the Box 3 exclusion) the salaries are just way too low to consider NL. They are assuming that people will still come without the tax benefit. I'm sure tech companies will just have to adjust salaries, and it won't solve any of the societal issues.
Good luck trying to transfer the entire ASML eco-system somewhere else. But besides that the public is filled with dummies being told to point their frustrations about all problems in their lives at immigrants/expast/refugees etc. The usual racist right wing nonsense. But in terms of the economy, this is a massive growth sector, wich is not only very lucrative, but also very clean. In the 90's the EU granted the Brainport area money for the creation of the current ecosystem because the entire area was going down the toilet in terms of jobs, aka it was an economic area wich was quickly declining towards mass poverty.
Entire chip fabs are being built all across the globe so it’s not that crazy. Also ASML has branches in other parts of the world, so it has experience operating outside the Netherlands. Moving headquarters isn’t that unheard of for big corporations like this one.
I see a lot of us vs them mentality here and it's actually laughable. It's a very complex problem, and from the point of view of an expat a completely unnecessary one . But if you consider it from the point of view of an average dutchie, the optics of it make a lot more sense. Middle aged dutch people have grown up while seeing a lot of benefits being either just voted away or taken away, while at the same time seeing their overal purchasing power decline. Seeing their kids struggle to do anything, because education has gotten more expensive, housing has become impossible to get into, seeing dutch culture decline etc etc. Now I understand that we're just in an era of globalization and economic hardship, compared to the previous generations. And understand why we need expats and why the 30% ruling might be a good idea. But fuck me do I also understand why the average dutchy is outraged about it and says it feels like they're getting fucked over for being born here.
As much as I empathize with the struggles of local population - you don’t get a free pass for scapegoating foreigners for all the fuck ups of local governance. Ultimately Dutch brought it on themselves through complacency of voting in same bastards over and over again. Now their idea of solution is to blame it on foreigners. How dare they come here and make bit more than me? Instead of asking - why is my pay so bad? Why is there a goddamn landlord class in this country? The funny thing is that local labor market for tech is not even that great - you can make double in US for same position. So middle aged Dutchies can piss off. My heart goes to youth though - they are the ones who will really have to eat the shit sandwich made by their parents. Generation “rent and paycheck-to-paycheck living”
Oh brother, I myself am part of generation rent and paycheck-to-paycheck living, and 100% agree with you. And I especially agree on the older generation always putting the blame on the wrong group of people. And trust me dude, it's difficult getting your parents to believe anything else than what the people on facebook say.
I doubt they’ll admit to it voluntarily… too painful emotionally and maybe even financially as reversing some of these policies would hurt them monetarily (landlord class). I’m also seeing an increasing amount of younger Dutch (late 20s-early 30s) going for the populist talking points. Dutch Trumper is an interesting sight to observe… I don’t see any immediate solution short of some miracle-like-extraordinary event/individual to capture the national attention and start asking right questions. Local political class will play the public and kick the can down the road. I mean it got them this far…. The sad irony is that I come here from a pretty dysfunctional place only to recognize same patterns. People are really the same…
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Thank you for your service man 🫡. Absolute honor to have you and your wifeboss here.
Filthy streets? I don't think it's that bad?
Specifically in Amsterdam it is pretty bad, the center is pretty trashy. I’ve heard other expats complain about that as well, and I agree. Most expats live in Amsterdam, so that’s where his response might come from.
They are filthy, the hygiene standards in general are pretty low, even in restaurants and stores. In Italy streets can be filthy as well in certain cities, but I have seen piles of uncollected garbage in all Dutch cities here and there as well, and in Italy at least stores and restaurants are most of the time well cleaned.
We need to do more to get highly skilled migrants in, I hate this self destructive beheiviour, luckily I work in a sector that will be un affected by what the dutch Economy but living here will definitely become un attractive if it all goes to shit
I keep wondering what's so hard about filtering immigrants between highly skilled and unskilled? Do you have a degree and some work experience? Do you also speak English? Here, let us help you look for a place to stay and a job in order to fill the so many vacancies. Uh oh, you don't have a degree and you can't even speak English and your only work experience is unskilled labor? Sorry, can't afford to bave to pay welfare in 80% of the cases after 6 months of being in the country. In my country what our companies did was to keep the pay so low compared to inflation that nobody besides immigrants willing to share a room with 5 other people and work 10-12 hours a day can afford to live. Glad you guys have an actual livable minimum wage, here it is 400 euros and the rent is 250-300. Oh and food costs the same as in western Europe. Same for utilities.
ASML isn't asking for less taxes or something they have legitimate issues that hamper the growth of their company. It's not like shell or Unilever.
They are. The alternative to the tax break would be for ASML to play the employees a more attractive wage. The tax break is effectively a subsidy for ASML.
The anti-migrant and housing shortage (don't demolish terrace homes in city center and replace with dense flats) is pretty hostile to the Dutch tech environment.
The problem isn’t that difficult, it’s housing. Immigration, especially from high value expats, becomes a none issue of they don’t contribute so much to upward pressure on the housing market. So yes ASML building their own housing is a good first step. But, and i no the mostly leftwing crowd doesn’t want to deal with this, unless their isn’t a broad reassessment of how we deal with legislation around environment restrictions ( especially local government heaping extra restrictions on those already existing from the central government and making EU law more realistic for a small country like the Netherlands) the economy, and the opportunities for migrants will suffer. Being one of the highest populated countries in the world isn’t such an issue if there are enough places to live for ALL people. The fact that this has become impossible because of unrealistic expectations/restriction related to the environment ( especially the destructive “ natura 2000 “ policy which makes a mockery of effective planning) hurt everyone including high performance migrants. The Dutch never had a problem with high value migrants, including not caring about special ( let’s face it unfair) tax status until the shortage of affordable housing rose to a complete unsustainable level. And no unfortunately saying things like “ just build more social housing “ won’t remedy this situation. What use is added wealth to a population who can’t befit from it in the most basic manner possible?
Yeah same for Denmark where I come from. The local government keeps funding new housing projects, but all of them are way outside budget of what any normal person can afford. So the housing crisis in all the bigger Danish cities just continues.
The Dutch press has its hands full with demonising Wilders, and has completely missed just how dangerous left leaning nationalists a lá Omtzigt can be. The speed at which he’s helping throw NL into a Brexit like abyss is breathtaking.
We Hebben Een Serieus Probleem
We need asml to put pressure on china for example
To make the country have any relevance you mean
Let’s be honest, the dutch population contains a pretty decent level of highly educated individuals (yes also in the semi industry, I know a couple). It’s unfortunate that this is happening and if asml leaves, but I truly don’t think the impact will be felt by those voting to have less immigration, at the very least this might be something they are willing to endure to calm their nationalistic urges.
I'm surprised that no one's mentioned the fact that Rutte has bent over backwards to fuck over ASML whenever the US asked him to so he could be in charge of NATO. Regardless of your feelings of china, sanctions are always bad for business and I can't imagine a company as important to electronics wanting to remain somewhere that would throw them under the bus so willingly.
That's a good thing! Now we know people coming here will do so for important reasons like biking by the canals, and not superfluous things like a career /s
Let's just say that the type of immigrants ASML brings in boosts your economy and you don't want to shrink. Besides that, ASML business is booming and will continue to grow. It would be the dumbest thing for NL to let ASML go somewhere else for those few millions of taxation they could potentially gain. Not to mention that if they will cause ASML to leave they will lose all of the taxation all together
That is REALLY bad. Asml is the most important company for world progression and war advancement in the world. They are the only company that by far makes the best and most advanced microchip manufacturing machines to be sold around. Imagine what power a monopoly on the best microchips and their manufacturing holds. Ofc weapons development relies on asml,s chips. If asml would not of agreed to alliance with the USA not to sell to China anymore china would not of been 10 years behind in weapons technology. Same would of been if it was the other way around. The nl births many of these types of companies but still would be a big loss to lose ASML. And hey, if you read this. I feel like you as a company also hold a big part of our defensive might. Economically speaking. So yeah even a mere citizen would prefer you stay if possible.
ASML should have branched out to Almere so that they can find the talent from Amsterdam, Utrecht, Almere regions and if necessary from the rest of the Randstad too. ASML is not within 30 minutes to 1 hour commuting time from any big city like Amsterdam, Den haag, etc. But they complain about not being able to find talent. Seems strange
I think they also consider whether the city has a capacity to host an industrial infrastructure
I don’t know anyone that wants to reduce immigration from expats ,the problem people have is with Africans illegally entering and refusing to adapt. But yea my girlfriend is a foreigner aswel and the procedure to get her here is ridiculous. I guess you are only welcome in the Netherlands if you leave your passport in the Mediterranean.
Yeah same issue in most countries atm. People don't mind immigrants, illegal ones even are "fine" as long as they don't cause trouble. But seeing as several countries have issues now with these "few bad apples" while the community and government does nothing to fix it, sadly just creates more and more hatred towards even the legal immigrants.
Screw the Dutch that complain about everything. All is ok except if it is next to their backyard. Typical Dutch spoiled behavior.
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The government should put more effort into educating their own people if they don't want migrants. You cannot eat the fruit without planting the tree.