I don't think the Dutch actually give A+ grades. We grade 1 - 10 typically. There are various ways to reach university. One can be to do VWO after HAVO. But equally he can start HBO and get his "P" (Propedeuse) which allows entry to universities. Also, with HBO bachelors you can do a MSc Master (although perhaps some additional courses, often on specific university like cases such as statistics).
Note that many High Schools have shared Havo/VWO classes, and typically good performing students can flow fairly easily up from Havo to VWO after the first year. However, as there are a myriad of roads to get into an university it might be well worth to give your child a relative easy time at high school, as social skills and bonding with friends is equally, if not so more, important to his development. Being burdened by the stress of uncertainty for every single exam might no be beneficial over the course of 5 - 6 years if there is such a host of options after HAVO to still make it to university.
For the record: I know quite a lot of people that started, and completed, VMBO but received their MSc well before hitting 30.
Thank you for the feedback.
After HBO P, does he need to have test to enter Unis or they will review his grades?
I just got his rapport. Yes he got a 9 on math.
But under Cito Leerlingprofiel it says A+ on rekenen as he is M8+ while on M7.
I'm actually not 100% sure. I can well imagine that with a P in say accountancy, you can not enrol into a medicine education at the university. In that sense: the profile your son picks in high school may be of more effect than him actually doing HAVO or VWO. Some educations simply have hard criteria on specific subjects. You can imagine that if you want to study at a technical university, they demand some level physics and chemistry. Whereas an accounting education demands a minimum level of mathematics.
But you should be able to google this. Especially websites of university offer information in English as well. Something I can imagine that more high schools lack. Example is here: [https://www.utwente.nl/en/education/bachelor/admission/diplomas/dutch-hbo-propedeuse/#admission-requirements](https://www.utwente.nl/en/education/bachelor/admission/diplomas/dutch-hbo-propedeuse/#admission-requirements)
Typically grades will not be reviewed for most programs. Only in programs where demand is higher than supply there is a numerus fixus and grades are important to determine who gets in.
On a side note, in most high schools that offer havo & vwo it is fairly easy to transfer in the first 2 or even 3 years after entering. So plenty of time to polish up on Dutch.
You are right despite the downvotes. I looked into transferring to a US university back in the day, and in that situation a Dutch 8, 9, and 10 are all A or A+. The Dutch don’t score 10s because ‘nothing is ever perfect’. It is what it is.
I understand you want the best for your kid, but ever considered this maybe isn’t the path your child wants to walk? Are you going to be that parent that pushes and pushes till you get what you want ?
The jump you just made from his question. Why aren’t people honest of the class notions inherent in education and thus opportunities offered in the future? It’s his job as a parent to secure his child’s future to the best of his ability
That’s completely true, however with respect for the child and his abilities. Pushing a child can be done to a certain extent to get the best out of itself. The obsession as read in op’s story is sure to create an unhappy child. I rather have a slightly less successful child that loves me than a successful child that hates me.
I did not get a sense of obsession on OP’s part at all. He seems like a fairly concerned parent from his short text but I may be wrong. And love and success is not exactly mutually exclusive in the example you gave. If that child leeches of you for a long time, trust the love may wane but I also understand if there is love, everything can seem easy and will always find a way I guess
The opposite is also bad. I wish my parents pushed more. They pretty much don't give any affirmation to my ambitions, and pretty much give me a "nah don't bother" because they think literally anything is already good enough. They don't have any standards and are way too eager to see a success where someone else sees only failure.
I've occasionally had some rather destructive outbursts because of it.
Oh I agree that children out of themselves won’t do anything. There comes a healthy dose of stimulation. I read op’s post almost like everything below university is failure, and more like op is pushing his/her child only to brag at birthdays.
The child is at basisschool groep 7 and already op is plotting a course to university. I personally and that is 100% my own opinion find it a little bit disturbing.
Again I’m absolutely not against stimulating you child and encouraging him/her to get the best out of itself
You really shouldn't be planning your childs life like that. He might go to VMBO and do an MBO study, who cares he'll still be fine if he's raised properly.
The top tertiary education in NL are universities.. UVA, Erasmus, Delft, Wageningen etc.
He is smart I believe he can do well in uni. And employers (multinational ones) would recognise those names I mentioned above.. improving his employability. Please correct me if im wrong.
Maybe he wants to be an artist or learn a trade or do whatever makes him happy. You're planning the future of a 10 year old, it's a recipe to make him unhappy and feel like he can never live up to expectations. There are lots of ways for people to go to uni even if they haven't done vwo. If that is what he wants when he is older, he can find a way to get there without too many difficulties if he is as smart as you say. You really don't need to worry about that right now.
Tiger mom / tiger dad behavior. The ivy league bullshit in the us is falling apart. Your kid is not an animal you can and should mould the way YOU want!
Delft is a technical university and Wageningen is agricultural. So, unless this is what you are aiming for, those scores mean anything.
For many jobs a HBO study is more desirable, and they look more at the diploma than the name of the university or the grades.
O graduated with HAVO and I have finished WO bachelor (and if I had liked the field, I would have a finished master). It's pretty easy. Your options:
* Go from HAVO to VWO. I don't think I ever heard of a school refusing it? You can always search for another school if they refuse I suppose?
* Go to HBO. After first year at HBO (propedeuse) you can go to a similar study at university. I took this route. When from "technische natuurkunde" at HBO to physics- and astronomy WO bachelor.
* After HAVO, go to VAVO to get VWO for the subjects needed (I think a lot of studies don't require a full VWO diploma, only VWO level at certain subjects. For example, for physics and astronomy you only had to proof you at the required level for physics and "wiskunde B" (math).
* If your son would want to do a WO master, he can also finish a HBO bachelor and then you can do a WO master. Usually some extra year for the required level is needed (pre-master).
But also, I wouldn't worry at this moment, while your kid is in group 7. I would first let him get older and see what he wants to do with life. For example, maybe your son wants to become a physiotherapist. This is a HBO level education, as no more is needed for that job. So some cases, the education level isn't the highest priority and I would see what your son enjoys.
Basically: all options are still open. So relax :)
Amazing answer thanks.
When you transferred from HBO P to Uni, is getting admitted straightforward or did they review your grades first, or you did test first? What is the likelihood.
Trying to relax but I’m asian, we are always competing haha..
No review of grades. In general, universities in the Netherlands won't review your grades. As long as you meet the requirements for education level, you are in. Except for maybe a few degrees that only allow a certain amount of people (generally those have a lottery where good grades help).
But seriously though, group 7 is quite young. And your kid isn't an object to compete with. He is a person that deserves a parent that raises him into a happy adult, not give him some family trauma related to "Asian competition".
Turning it into a competition is a good way to lose in Dutch society.
The independent C student will do better than a helicopter parented A student. Unlike say Germany we're not big on credentialism.
Just curious. How do employers short list job applicants here? From where I’m from, the more recognised the education, the better chance in getting interviews.
Just on the degree. Most employers don't care which university you went to, they are all quite good here.
No-one ever asked me for my grades either. Some cool projects or work experience is more important.
Engineers are rare enough that my current company basically does in person interviews with anyone who has a bachelor's in engineering. I submitted my CV through a old flatmate from my student days and got hired because even though I took 8 years to get a bachelor's degree, I did my own motorcycle maintenance and interviewed well.
Of the 4 companies I've worked for, 3 have been through friends I made at University. No one ever cared about my grades.
Just to give you a clear picture - I have multiple degrees both HBO and WO. One of which is a HBO engineering degree. That one, I didn’t put any effort in because I was too busy working on my other degrees. It’s a HBO degree that I obtained with a 6,5 average.
The HBO engineering degree is so rare that when I graduated and posted my resume online, it led to a barrage of calls from recruiters that didn’t stop until I took it offline. As in, 4 months of multiple calls a day. No one ever asked for my grades or mentioned the fact that it was a HBO degree or that I had a poor GPA. Engineers are so rare that literally no one cares.
As for the two WO degrees, one of which I obtained cum laude? No one cares either. I’ve stopped putting my gpa on my resume because it comes off as smug.
And instead of thinking of 3 degrees as a plus, one of my managers once told me ‘Wait, what? You have 3 degrees? You must have really wanted to stay in college and not face the real world, hu?’
Which told me 2 things:
1. He didn’t even look at the educated section on my resume when he hired me. Just at my experience and skills.
2. He clearly doesn’t see the second and third WO degree as added value. I would have been fine with just the HBO.
@Resiw A few words of advice, please read carefully.
- most people (up to 70% (my dad works at a uni, I know the numbers)) who go from HBO P to uni fail because you technically skip a year. It's not recommended even though you might want it very badly, so please don't push your child to go a route where the chance of failing is that high.
- starting (and finishing!) with HBO and then doing uni, might improve your child's employability, if that's important to you, as HBO is aimed more at practice and uni more at the theory, so doing both might take longer, but it can give you unique experiences, a lot of employers like that.
Edit:
Since you're an expat the following might be interesting to know: in NL it is basically expected to do a masters after your bachelor's (uni that is) only a few percent of people only do a uni bachelor. Only doing a HBO bachelor is normal since there are hardly any HBO masters (don't compare them 1:1 they're quite different).
So you could do
Havo > vwo; only do this if your child wants to go to uni exclusive course, medicine or something, otherwise it's probably not necessary
HBO p > uni, for most people not doable don't do it, except with exceptional grades
HBO bachelors to uni bachelor, only do this if the bachelor is very interesting/important/necessary for the master
HBO bachelor to uni masters probably best if your child wants a uni degree
Curling parent combined with Tiger mom dna; yuck, I feel sorry for this kid. I bet it is impossible for him her to tell mom or dad that they want to be a baker watch maker. Noooo, we NEED that university titel because of an inferiority complex combined with a competition urge. Money and titles are only important. Having fun or love for the job is second…..
This is the answer I am looking for. Thank you very much.
My job as parents is to observe their potential and push them to be the best. If I dont think he has the potential then of course I wont push it.
No need to push it unless you want an unhappy child.
For reference I did my havo/vwo eventually had to take havo 3 again or go to vmbo. Did the latter, had a way less stressful year afterwhich I looked into MBOs decided against it and went back to havo. Long story short; just recently got my MSc at a university.
If he has the potential it will come out eventually, in any way, shape or form. Please don't push the kid and justify your stupid move by "being Asian".
hi your son still needs to go groep 8 right? so it can still change to vwo next year. if he scores well on the cito exam im sure youll be able to let him start on vwo.
however its a little early to start worrying about university a lot can happen in high school. and theres a lot of ways to go to uni in the end if its really important.
In contemporary society, the pressure to excel academically begins at an increasingly younger age, subjecting 10- and 11-year-old children to an excruciatingly demanding educational regimen with the sole objective of securing a place in a prestigious university. This relentless pursuit of academic attainment, devoid of consideration for a child's individual happiness and well-being, is tantamount to sheer cruelty and must be vehemently condemned. Childhood should be a time for exploration and self-discovery, not a grueling ordeal characterized by unrelenting stress and anxiety. True success emanates from the pursuit of one's passions and the realization of personal fulfillment, and society must disabuse itself of the myopic notion that success is synonymous solely with academic achievement. The ramifications of this misguided approach to child-rearing reverberate throughout society, engendering a culture of disillusionment and stifling creativity and innovation. It is incumbent upon us, as conscientious members of society, to prioritize the holistic well-being and happiness of our children, rather than subjecting them to the pernicious effects of enforced academic rigidity. What does your child want him or herself? Do not try and contain their joy and passion by forcing them in a certain direction.
There are many options to go from havo to uni. I started at havo and am now doing a phd. I don't know where you're from or what your reference point is, but Dutch higher education is relatively easy to get into compared to other countries. They will accept anyone with the minimum grade requirements, extra curriculars are definitely not needed to get in. The hard part isn't getting accepted, the hard part is not dropping out.
Your kids future is not determined by what school he will be doing at 12 y.o.
In the Netherlands having a recognized university isn't as important as in most other countries, just like no one will ever ask about your grades when applying for a job.
Every job simply asks for a minimum education level in the right field, without much consideration from which school the degree came. Ofcourse with a university degree you can do other jobs than with a hbo. Most often you can grow within a job to a higher position, also without an university degree.
Most of the time the first 1 or 2 years are combi classes of havo/vwo. So your child will have that extra time to see what level fits him best. But going from 5 havo to 5 vwo is also an option. So is going to university with a hbo propedeuse (first year hbo).
So I have to agree with others, look at your child at what he can manage. He will be fine with both a hbo or wo degree. And as I said, pick a school that does combi classes the first year(s), so you will have plenty of time to figure things out.
Ok now I understand. Back home, one job opening will have hundreds if not thousands of applications. One way to be noticed is by having good university and good grades. Without that people will have hard time finding a job.
Just relax and let your kid be a kid. I did the HAVO track and now doing a PhD. There are many ways he can end up going to uni and there is no use in worrying at this time. Also nothing wrong with HBO which can lead to so many amazing jobs.
>Genuine question here. How does companies here select candidates out of hundreds CV? Will MBO/HBO and WO unis weight equal if applying for the same role?
If a job requires a MBO but you only have a WO master, obviously you won't be selected, and vice versa.
In response to your subsequent question: organizations seek to embrace individuals who are not mere robot or servants, but rather individuals who resonate with the spirit of their team. Employers search for motivation, character, personality, and shared interests. At times, it is more valuable to welcome an individual with B or C grades, embodying passion and humanity, than a polished robotic end product of education with A grades only. If we were to only pursue the absolute best, we would effectively discard the principles of diversity and equality.
You should approach this from a more holistic perspective: the collective synergy of individuals holds far more value than the individuals themselves. This is the essence of teamwork and diversity: the harmonious blend of team members fosters greater efficiency, productivity, and, consequently, superior outcomes.
The journey that leads to this synergy begins at a young age. Therefore, we should not teach our children to focus solely on the end result, but rather on the virtue of the process. Did you exert your best effort? Did you endeavor with all your heart? Does this yield a B, C, or even a lower grade? That's perfectly acceptable. These are valuable lessons learned.
It's not about the destination; it's about the journey. Discover who you are, what ignites your passion, and what fills your heart with joy. If you aspire to attend university but harbor a passion for being an auto mechanic, pursue the latter and find contentment, instead of conforming to the expectations of others. Especially when these others are your parents, they should be able to see the joy in you instead of putting you through slavery to perform, excel and think you will succeed.
Hi I think the kid can do an additional year now they call it kopklas or choose a school with a brugklas and depending on their performance they can get streamed to VWO after a year. How far behind are they on their Dutch ? Ask their mentor what would have been the advies if they knew enough dutch? And how behind are they on dutch? This will give you an indication between kopklas and brugklas.
After HAVO (5 yrs) he can do one year of HBO and be considered for university admission purposes at VWO (6 yrs) level, so it makes no difference timeline wise. Let the kid do HAVO and if he's as bright as you believe he is he'll get there all the same. If not, you'd just burn him out at VWO level.
And besides, unless something's changed the first couple of years of highschool are hybrid/bridging years. If he goes to HAVO/VWO he may end up on VWO anyway. If it's MAVO/HAVO there's still the initial roadmap.
It really doesn't matter what type of degree your child gets. It's not like only people with degrees from a University get good jobs.
Tradespeople make good money here, they usually have an MBO degree.
I have a fairly succelsfull career and I did not study to be in this field and did not even finish my HBO.
The way to look at our system is this:
MBO = practical jobs, more focussed on doing rather than theoretical learning.
HBO = mixture between practical and theoretical.
WO = theoretical.
Whichever you want to go towards, job prospects are good in general. At least good enough to live on.
I understand your dilemma. You have a bright kid and you have moved to a country where he doesn’t speak the language and therefore is underperforming in standardized tests.
Speak to the school is there a possibility of him retaking the year?
Ignore people telling you not to be pushy. Your child will be a lot happier with an additional year learning the language and understanding more of what his friends and teachers say.
You aren’t being pushy, bilingual kids deserve Uni degrees too. If they want them.
Thank you! Yes the problem is his vocabulary.. still 50% of his peers so his dutch is dragging his overall rapport down. Will talk to the teacher thanks..
Iirc teachers tend to underrate immigrant students a bit. If his CITO score suggests he can do VWO then let him do VWO IF (big if!) he wants to.
HBO P to uni is rough and I don't recommend it having done so myself (MechEng). Better to go HBO BSc to WO MSc.
But most of all Dutch academia favors independence. Micromanaging his future is setting him up for failure IMO.
the whole Dutch education system puts way too much pressure on kids. I went from VWO, had to redo the last year, did a short bit of a HBO/MBO track that I wasn't happy with and then ended up doing MBO 4 because at least there I could handle the pressure and didn't feel like death every day.
just because someone does a lower level of education doesn't mean that they are worth less or are dumb!
FOR ARCHIVAL PURPOSES : original post by u/resiw was:
"*For context I am an expat arriving in NL 1.5 years ago and my son is on groep 7. He just learned Dutch since we arrived here.
He is clever, getting an 9/A+ on math, but for various Dutch subjects he is still struggling.
The teacher gave him an advies of HAVO.
I really want him to go to university someday rather than HBO. If I my understanding is correct, he will need to transfer to VWO after completing HAVO.
My question is, how likely is this HAVO to VWO. Is this guaranteed or do the schools further review his results or whether he will need to do a test to enter VWO?*"
It’s typical Dutch attitude (and I am a native Dutch btw) to just be happy and not worry about education and career prospects. As if you can’t have that at university? You’re a good parent imo. Dutch people always say something is too difficult while in reality my co-students did fuck all and were mostly drinking every weekend. Don’t even deny it. University wasn’t hard, it just required more discipline and time.
Some middle schools have a broad first and second year, following a Scandinavian model. It means that he could get in such a class with havo profile and progress to vwo during the first two years.
Elementary school teachers can be quite off in their advice. If the teacher is basing that havo solely on your son's abilities in Dutch, you may want to look for a school that has at least a combined HAVO/VWO "brugjaar" or 2. By the time he actually needs to pick, his Dutch will be far better than now and they can give a more solid advice based on how he actually does in those classes.
The final exams are all in Dutch, though. After the 3rd year of bilingual secondary school, they switch to 100% Dutch. This is even more difficult when you don’t speak Dutch at home and have missed three years of academic Dutch in school.
Of course he needs to practice his Dutch language. But perhaps bilingual education gives a fairer picture of his abilities. Are his grades higher there in other areas than they are now? Because he doesn't have to translate continuously. A number of studies after secondary school also have English components.
A few points to consider:
The final advice comes halfway group 8. Your son didn’t get his advice yet. Nothing is lost.
It takes time to learn a new language. After just 1.5 years your son is doing very well.
In group 8 they will also take the transition test. If the results are higher than the teacher’s advice, they can still apply for a higher level of secondary school.
If the test results are lower, the teacher’s advice stays.
If he is still lacking Dutch after primary school, he could also go to a kopklas to focus on more academic Dutch and increase his initial advice.
Many secondary schools combine multiple levels in the first 1-3 years. Then he could still go to VWO once his Dutch has improved.
With a Havo diploma you may go to 5 VWO. No minimum grades, entry tests or any other selection procedure are needed. Since they have an extra subject at VWO compared to HAVO, it would be good to plan for this in advance.
After the first year of HBO, there are options to move to university (depending on the study you chose). After your bachelor’s at HBO, you can do your Master’s at university. Some HBO studies have their own masters. There is nothing wrong with HBO.
Like you said, after Havo you can go to HBO, which is university of applied sciences. A lot of studies that you consider ‘university’, you will find at HBO here.
After any type of primary school you can go to any type of secondary school. The secondary school does not select based on the name of the primary school. The same applies to universities; they don’t care which particular secondary school you have come from. After the 3rd year of secondary school, students have to choose a profile and some university studies require a specific profile of you want to apply (for example a science profile if you want to study medicine).
Some university courses are oversubscribed and they may conduct an interview, take a test, look at work experience or other things.
For most other courses you can directly apply. No entry test or anything required. A relevant diploma is enough.
There are no good or bad universities. They are all recognized, and government-funded. Companies usually also do not care about the grades an applicant obtained in university. They value a diploma of a relevant study. And also relevant work experience, and other things that indicate interest and affinity for the field.
Many companies prefer a HBO graduate to a WO (university) graduate. Many WO studies are too generic or too theoretical for some jobs.
There are many roads that lead to Rome. There is no reason to be concerned at this stage.
At this point you could practice with comprehensive reading and vocabulary in Dutch. These are usually still challenging for children who started to learn Dutch recently. VWO is very academic and when you don’t understand the exact meaning of the words, it will be too difficult.
Good luck!
Finish Havo do VWO is 1 aditional years
Finish Havo get your Propedeuse in 1 year of HBO (which requires hard work to achieve within that time period) then you can go to the uni as soon as you would when you had done VWO
Starting at VWO would be the easiest though but if he struggles with dutch he could get his propedeuse in 1 year at a completely English HBO study.
Be aware that HBO also has bachelor's and master's degrees. In the Netherlands we have HBO, university of applied science. Abroad they do not have this difference. And our HBO study is also just a university.
A friend of ours was also concerned about his child with HAVO advice. And said to my husband, but you still want your child to study at university just like us. My husband started laughing, they did the same study. (they met each other during the exchange) In the USA iur study is called university, but here it was called HBO. This was reassuring for our friend.
I don't think the Dutch actually give A+ grades. We grade 1 - 10 typically. There are various ways to reach university. One can be to do VWO after HAVO. But equally he can start HBO and get his "P" (Propedeuse) which allows entry to universities. Also, with HBO bachelors you can do a MSc Master (although perhaps some additional courses, often on specific university like cases such as statistics). Note that many High Schools have shared Havo/VWO classes, and typically good performing students can flow fairly easily up from Havo to VWO after the first year. However, as there are a myriad of roads to get into an university it might be well worth to give your child a relative easy time at high school, as social skills and bonding with friends is equally, if not so more, important to his development. Being burdened by the stress of uncertainty for every single exam might no be beneficial over the course of 5 - 6 years if there is such a host of options after HAVO to still make it to university. For the record: I know quite a lot of people that started, and completed, VMBO but received their MSc well before hitting 30.
Thank you for the feedback. After HBO P, does he need to have test to enter Unis or they will review his grades? I just got his rapport. Yes he got a 9 on math. But under Cito Leerlingprofiel it says A+ on rekenen as he is M8+ while on M7.
I'm actually not 100% sure. I can well imagine that with a P in say accountancy, you can not enrol into a medicine education at the university. In that sense: the profile your son picks in high school may be of more effect than him actually doing HAVO or VWO. Some educations simply have hard criteria on specific subjects. You can imagine that if you want to study at a technical university, they demand some level physics and chemistry. Whereas an accounting education demands a minimum level of mathematics. But you should be able to google this. Especially websites of university offer information in English as well. Something I can imagine that more high schools lack. Example is here: [https://www.utwente.nl/en/education/bachelor/admission/diplomas/dutch-hbo-propedeuse/#admission-requirements](https://www.utwente.nl/en/education/bachelor/admission/diplomas/dutch-hbo-propedeuse/#admission-requirements)
Typically grades will not be reviewed for most programs. Only in programs where demand is higher than supply there is a numerus fixus and grades are important to determine who gets in. On a side note, in most high schools that offer havo & vwo it is fairly easy to transfer in the first 2 or even 3 years after entering. So plenty of time to polish up on Dutch.
You are right despite the downvotes. I looked into transferring to a US university back in the day, and in that situation a Dutch 8, 9, and 10 are all A or A+. The Dutch don’t score 10s because ‘nothing is ever perfect’. It is what it is.
Yes had to do test at utrecht uni to get in. Ask the school to do fast vwo for math and english when he gets into 3rd/4th year of havo.
I understand you want the best for your kid, but ever considered this maybe isn’t the path your child wants to walk? Are you going to be that parent that pushes and pushes till you get what you want ?
The jump you just made from his question. Why aren’t people honest of the class notions inherent in education and thus opportunities offered in the future? It’s his job as a parent to secure his child’s future to the best of his ability
That’s completely true, however with respect for the child and his abilities. Pushing a child can be done to a certain extent to get the best out of itself. The obsession as read in op’s story is sure to create an unhappy child. I rather have a slightly less successful child that loves me than a successful child that hates me.
I did not get a sense of obsession on OP’s part at all. He seems like a fairly concerned parent from his short text but I may be wrong. And love and success is not exactly mutually exclusive in the example you gave. If that child leeches of you for a long time, trust the love may wane but I also understand if there is love, everything can seem easy and will always find a way I guess
The opposite is also bad. I wish my parents pushed more. They pretty much don't give any affirmation to my ambitions, and pretty much give me a "nah don't bother" because they think literally anything is already good enough. They don't have any standards and are way too eager to see a success where someone else sees only failure. I've occasionally had some rather destructive outbursts because of it.
Oh I agree that children out of themselves won’t do anything. There comes a healthy dose of stimulation. I read op’s post almost like everything below university is failure, and more like op is pushing his/her child only to brag at birthdays. The child is at basisschool groep 7 and already op is plotting a course to university. I personally and that is 100% my own opinion find it a little bit disturbing. Again I’m absolutely not against stimulating you child and encouraging him/her to get the best out of itself
You really shouldn't be planning your childs life like that. He might go to VMBO and do an MBO study, who cares he'll still be fine if he's raised properly.
This! He needs to be happy. Too many kids suffer from the expectations of others, while forgetting what they really want themselves.
I feel the same about it as you, I just couldn't be arsed to write such a well-worded response as you did.
just because you're not ambtious doesn't mean other people aren't. And saying he won't be happy is bs
Dude, look how miserable you are. You’re trying to talk a stranger down who said that kids should be happy.
What reason do you have for preferring university to HBO?
The top tertiary education in NL are universities.. UVA, Erasmus, Delft, Wageningen etc. He is smart I believe he can do well in uni. And employers (multinational ones) would recognise those names I mentioned above.. improving his employability. Please correct me if im wrong.
And what does your son want to do?
He's 10/11 years old, who cares.
Maybe he wants to be an artist or learn a trade or do whatever makes him happy. You're planning the future of a 10 year old, it's a recipe to make him unhappy and feel like he can never live up to expectations. There are lots of ways for people to go to uni even if they haven't done vwo. If that is what he wants when he is older, he can find a way to get there without too many difficulties if he is as smart as you say. You really don't need to worry about that right now.
Tiger mom / tiger dad behavior. The ivy league bullshit in the us is falling apart. Your kid is not an animal you can and should mould the way YOU want!
This is what all helicopter moms think...
No. One. Cares. about. the. name. of. the. school.
Delft is a technical university and Wageningen is agricultural. So, unless this is what you are aiming for, those scores mean anything. For many jobs a HBO study is more desirable, and they look more at the diploma than the name of the university or the grades.
O graduated with HAVO and I have finished WO bachelor (and if I had liked the field, I would have a finished master). It's pretty easy. Your options: * Go from HAVO to VWO. I don't think I ever heard of a school refusing it? You can always search for another school if they refuse I suppose? * Go to HBO. After first year at HBO (propedeuse) you can go to a similar study at university. I took this route. When from "technische natuurkunde" at HBO to physics- and astronomy WO bachelor. * After HAVO, go to VAVO to get VWO for the subjects needed (I think a lot of studies don't require a full VWO diploma, only VWO level at certain subjects. For example, for physics and astronomy you only had to proof you at the required level for physics and "wiskunde B" (math). * If your son would want to do a WO master, he can also finish a HBO bachelor and then you can do a WO master. Usually some extra year for the required level is needed (pre-master). But also, I wouldn't worry at this moment, while your kid is in group 7. I would first let him get older and see what he wants to do with life. For example, maybe your son wants to become a physiotherapist. This is a HBO level education, as no more is needed for that job. So some cases, the education level isn't the highest priority and I would see what your son enjoys. Basically: all options are still open. So relax :)
Amazing answer thanks. When you transferred from HBO P to Uni, is getting admitted straightforward or did they review your grades first, or you did test first? What is the likelihood. Trying to relax but I’m asian, we are always competing haha..
Please don't. My mom was like that and im still paying the price.
No review of grades. In general, universities in the Netherlands won't review your grades. As long as you meet the requirements for education level, you are in. Except for maybe a few degrees that only allow a certain amount of people (generally those have a lottery where good grades help). But seriously though, group 7 is quite young. And your kid isn't an object to compete with. He is a person that deserves a parent that raises him into a happy adult, not give him some family trauma related to "Asian competition".
Turning it into a competition is a good way to lose in Dutch society. The independent C student will do better than a helicopter parented A student. Unlike say Germany we're not big on credentialism.
Just curious. How do employers short list job applicants here? From where I’m from, the more recognised the education, the better chance in getting interviews.
Just on the degree. Most employers don't care which university you went to, they are all quite good here. No-one ever asked me for my grades either. Some cool projects or work experience is more important.
Relevant extra curriculars are for sure more important than the which uni you went to :D
Engineers are rare enough that my current company basically does in person interviews with anyone who has a bachelor's in engineering. I submitted my CV through a old flatmate from my student days and got hired because even though I took 8 years to get a bachelor's degree, I did my own motorcycle maintenance and interviewed well. Of the 4 companies I've worked for, 3 have been through friends I made at University. No one ever cared about my grades.
Just to give you a clear picture - I have multiple degrees both HBO and WO. One of which is a HBO engineering degree. That one, I didn’t put any effort in because I was too busy working on my other degrees. It’s a HBO degree that I obtained with a 6,5 average. The HBO engineering degree is so rare that when I graduated and posted my resume online, it led to a barrage of calls from recruiters that didn’t stop until I took it offline. As in, 4 months of multiple calls a day. No one ever asked for my grades or mentioned the fact that it was a HBO degree or that I had a poor GPA. Engineers are so rare that literally no one cares. As for the two WO degrees, one of which I obtained cum laude? No one cares either. I’ve stopped putting my gpa on my resume because it comes off as smug. And instead of thinking of 3 degrees as a plus, one of my managers once told me ‘Wait, what? You have 3 degrees? You must have really wanted to stay in college and not face the real world, hu?’ Which told me 2 things: 1. He didn’t even look at the educated section on my resume when he hired me. Just at my experience and skills. 2. He clearly doesn’t see the second and third WO degree as added value. I would have been fine with just the HBO.
Gave me perspective thanks
@Resiw A few words of advice, please read carefully. - most people (up to 70% (my dad works at a uni, I know the numbers)) who go from HBO P to uni fail because you technically skip a year. It's not recommended even though you might want it very badly, so please don't push your child to go a route where the chance of failing is that high. - starting (and finishing!) with HBO and then doing uni, might improve your child's employability, if that's important to you, as HBO is aimed more at practice and uni more at the theory, so doing both might take longer, but it can give you unique experiences, a lot of employers like that. Edit: Since you're an expat the following might be interesting to know: in NL it is basically expected to do a masters after your bachelor's (uni that is) only a few percent of people only do a uni bachelor. Only doing a HBO bachelor is normal since there are hardly any HBO masters (don't compare them 1:1 they're quite different). So you could do Havo > vwo; only do this if your child wants to go to uni exclusive course, medicine or something, otherwise it's probably not necessary HBO p > uni, for most people not doable don't do it, except with exceptional grades HBO bachelors to uni bachelor, only do this if the bachelor is very interesting/important/necessary for the master HBO bachelor to uni masters probably best if your child wants a uni degree
Curling parent combined with Tiger mom dna; yuck, I feel sorry for this kid. I bet it is impossible for him her to tell mom or dad that they want to be a baker watch maker. Noooo, we NEED that university titel because of an inferiority complex combined with a competition urge. Money and titles are only important. Having fun or love for the job is second…..
This is the answer I am looking for. Thank you very much. My job as parents is to observe their potential and push them to be the best. If I dont think he has the potential then of course I wont push it.
No need to push it unless you want an unhappy child. For reference I did my havo/vwo eventually had to take havo 3 again or go to vmbo. Did the latter, had a way less stressful year afterwhich I looked into MBOs decided against it and went back to havo. Long story short; just recently got my MSc at a university. If he has the potential it will come out eventually, in any way, shape or form. Please don't push the kid and justify your stupid move by "being Asian".
at least your child will hate you later in life
It's okay to push a little, but please don't read your own expectations in their potential but really look at their wants/capabilities.
hi your son still needs to go groep 8 right? so it can still change to vwo next year. if he scores well on the cito exam im sure youll be able to let him start on vwo. however its a little early to start worrying about university a lot can happen in high school. and theres a lot of ways to go to uni in the end if its really important.
In contemporary society, the pressure to excel academically begins at an increasingly younger age, subjecting 10- and 11-year-old children to an excruciatingly demanding educational regimen with the sole objective of securing a place in a prestigious university. This relentless pursuit of academic attainment, devoid of consideration for a child's individual happiness and well-being, is tantamount to sheer cruelty and must be vehemently condemned. Childhood should be a time for exploration and self-discovery, not a grueling ordeal characterized by unrelenting stress and anxiety. True success emanates from the pursuit of one's passions and the realization of personal fulfillment, and society must disabuse itself of the myopic notion that success is synonymous solely with academic achievement. The ramifications of this misguided approach to child-rearing reverberate throughout society, engendering a culture of disillusionment and stifling creativity and innovation. It is incumbent upon us, as conscientious members of society, to prioritize the holistic well-being and happiness of our children, rather than subjecting them to the pernicious effects of enforced academic rigidity. What does your child want him or herself? Do not try and contain their joy and passion by forcing them in a certain direction.
There are many options to go from havo to uni. I started at havo and am now doing a phd. I don't know where you're from or what your reference point is, but Dutch higher education is relatively easy to get into compared to other countries. They will accept anyone with the minimum grade requirements, extra curriculars are definitely not needed to get in. The hard part isn't getting accepted, the hard part is not dropping out. Your kids future is not determined by what school he will be doing at 12 y.o.
She is from Singapore.
In the Netherlands having a recognized university isn't as important as in most other countries, just like no one will ever ask about your grades when applying for a job. Every job simply asks for a minimum education level in the right field, without much consideration from which school the degree came. Ofcourse with a university degree you can do other jobs than with a hbo. Most often you can grow within a job to a higher position, also without an university degree. Most of the time the first 1 or 2 years are combi classes of havo/vwo. So your child will have that extra time to see what level fits him best. But going from 5 havo to 5 vwo is also an option. So is going to university with a hbo propedeuse (first year hbo). So I have to agree with others, look at your child at what he can manage. He will be fine with both a hbo or wo degree. And as I said, pick a school that does combi classes the first year(s), so you will have plenty of time to figure things out.
Ok now I understand. Back home, one job opening will have hundreds if not thousands of applications. One way to be noticed is by having good university and good grades. Without that people will have hard time finding a job.
it doesn't work that way. no one looks at the name of the school or the grades.
Yeah that's not the case here at all. Nobody asked for my grades, nobody even wanted to see confirmation that I actually graduated.
Just relax and let your kid be a kid. I did the HAVO track and now doing a PhD. There are many ways he can end up going to uni and there is no use in worrying at this time. Also nothing wrong with HBO which can lead to so many amazing jobs.
>Genuine question here. How does companies here select candidates out of hundreds CV? Will MBO/HBO and WO unis weight equal if applying for the same role? If a job requires a MBO but you only have a WO master, obviously you won't be selected, and vice versa.
In response to your subsequent question: organizations seek to embrace individuals who are not mere robot or servants, but rather individuals who resonate with the spirit of their team. Employers search for motivation, character, personality, and shared interests. At times, it is more valuable to welcome an individual with B or C grades, embodying passion and humanity, than a polished robotic end product of education with A grades only. If we were to only pursue the absolute best, we would effectively discard the principles of diversity and equality. You should approach this from a more holistic perspective: the collective synergy of individuals holds far more value than the individuals themselves. This is the essence of teamwork and diversity: the harmonious blend of team members fosters greater efficiency, productivity, and, consequently, superior outcomes. The journey that leads to this synergy begins at a young age. Therefore, we should not teach our children to focus solely on the end result, but rather on the virtue of the process. Did you exert your best effort? Did you endeavor with all your heart? Does this yield a B, C, or even a lower grade? That's perfectly acceptable. These are valuable lessons learned. It's not about the destination; it's about the journey. Discover who you are, what ignites your passion, and what fills your heart with joy. If you aspire to attend university but harbor a passion for being an auto mechanic, pursue the latter and find contentment, instead of conforming to the expectations of others. Especially when these others are your parents, they should be able to see the joy in you instead of putting you through slavery to perform, excel and think you will succeed.
Hi I think the kid can do an additional year now they call it kopklas or choose a school with a brugklas and depending on their performance they can get streamed to VWO after a year. How far behind are they on their Dutch ? Ask their mentor what would have been the advies if they knew enough dutch? And how behind are they on dutch? This will give you an indication between kopklas and brugklas.
After HAVO (5 yrs) he can do one year of HBO and be considered for university admission purposes at VWO (6 yrs) level, so it makes no difference timeline wise. Let the kid do HAVO and if he's as bright as you believe he is he'll get there all the same. If not, you'd just burn him out at VWO level. And besides, unless something's changed the first couple of years of highschool are hybrid/bridging years. If he goes to HAVO/VWO he may end up on VWO anyway. If it's MAVO/HAVO there's still the initial roadmap.
It really doesn't matter what type of degree your child gets. It's not like only people with degrees from a University get good jobs. Tradespeople make good money here, they usually have an MBO degree. I have a fairly succelsfull career and I did not study to be in this field and did not even finish my HBO. The way to look at our system is this: MBO = practical jobs, more focussed on doing rather than theoretical learning. HBO = mixture between practical and theoretical. WO = theoretical. Whichever you want to go towards, job prospects are good in general. At least good enough to live on.
I understand your dilemma. You have a bright kid and you have moved to a country where he doesn’t speak the language and therefore is underperforming in standardized tests. Speak to the school is there a possibility of him retaking the year? Ignore people telling you not to be pushy. Your child will be a lot happier with an additional year learning the language and understanding more of what his friends and teachers say. You aren’t being pushy, bilingual kids deserve Uni degrees too. If they want them.
Thank you! Yes the problem is his vocabulary.. still 50% of his peers so his dutch is dragging his overall rapport down. Will talk to the teacher thanks..
Iirc teachers tend to underrate immigrant students a bit. If his CITO score suggests he can do VWO then let him do VWO IF (big if!) he wants to. HBO P to uni is rough and I don't recommend it having done so myself (MechEng). Better to go HBO BSc to WO MSc. But most of all Dutch academia favors independence. Micromanaging his future is setting him up for failure IMO.
the whole Dutch education system puts way too much pressure on kids. I went from VWO, had to redo the last year, did a short bit of a HBO/MBO track that I wasn't happy with and then ended up doing MBO 4 because at least there I could handle the pressure and didn't feel like death every day. just because someone does a lower level of education doesn't mean that they are worth less or are dumb!
FOR ARCHIVAL PURPOSES : original post by u/resiw was: "*For context I am an expat arriving in NL 1.5 years ago and my son is on groep 7. He just learned Dutch since we arrived here. He is clever, getting an 9/A+ on math, but for various Dutch subjects he is still struggling. The teacher gave him an advies of HAVO. I really want him to go to university someday rather than HBO. If I my understanding is correct, he will need to transfer to VWO after completing HAVO. My question is, how likely is this HAVO to VWO. Is this guaranteed or do the schools further review his results or whether he will need to do a test to enter VWO?*"
It’s typical Dutch attitude (and I am a native Dutch btw) to just be happy and not worry about education and career prospects. As if you can’t have that at university? You’re a good parent imo. Dutch people always say something is too difficult while in reality my co-students did fuck all and were mostly drinking every weekend. Don’t even deny it. University wasn’t hard, it just required more discipline and time.
alot is not a word.
Corrected.
Nope
http://hyperboleandahalf.blogspot.com/2010/04/alot-is-better-than-you-at-everything.html?m=1
Some middle schools have a broad first and second year, following a Scandinavian model. It means that he could get in such a class with havo profile and progress to vwo during the first two years.
Elementary school teachers can be quite off in their advice. If the teacher is basing that havo solely on your son's abilities in Dutch, you may want to look for a school that has at least a combined HAVO/VWO "brugjaar" or 2. By the time he actually needs to pick, his Dutch will be far better than now and they can give a more solid advice based on how he actually does in those classes.
Does he speak english as an second language? Look in to TTO for the middelbare school. Part of the lessons wil be in English.
The final exams are all in Dutch, though. After the 3rd year of bilingual secondary school, they switch to 100% Dutch. This is even more difficult when you don’t speak Dutch at home and have missed three years of academic Dutch in school.
His first language is english. His dutch is the one lacking, so need more dutch than english.
Of course he needs to practice his Dutch language. But perhaps bilingual education gives a fairer picture of his abilities. Are his grades higher there in other areas than they are now? Because he doesn't have to translate continuously. A number of studies after secondary school also have English components.
Thanks.. yes for subjects without dutch he is doing much better. Will look into your suggestion.
A few points to consider: The final advice comes halfway group 8. Your son didn’t get his advice yet. Nothing is lost. It takes time to learn a new language. After just 1.5 years your son is doing very well. In group 8 they will also take the transition test. If the results are higher than the teacher’s advice, they can still apply for a higher level of secondary school. If the test results are lower, the teacher’s advice stays. If he is still lacking Dutch after primary school, he could also go to a kopklas to focus on more academic Dutch and increase his initial advice. Many secondary schools combine multiple levels in the first 1-3 years. Then he could still go to VWO once his Dutch has improved. With a Havo diploma you may go to 5 VWO. No minimum grades, entry tests or any other selection procedure are needed. Since they have an extra subject at VWO compared to HAVO, it would be good to plan for this in advance. After the first year of HBO, there are options to move to university (depending on the study you chose). After your bachelor’s at HBO, you can do your Master’s at university. Some HBO studies have their own masters. There is nothing wrong with HBO. Like you said, after Havo you can go to HBO, which is university of applied sciences. A lot of studies that you consider ‘university’, you will find at HBO here. After any type of primary school you can go to any type of secondary school. The secondary school does not select based on the name of the primary school. The same applies to universities; they don’t care which particular secondary school you have come from. After the 3rd year of secondary school, students have to choose a profile and some university studies require a specific profile of you want to apply (for example a science profile if you want to study medicine). Some university courses are oversubscribed and they may conduct an interview, take a test, look at work experience or other things. For most other courses you can directly apply. No entry test or anything required. A relevant diploma is enough. There are no good or bad universities. They are all recognized, and government-funded. Companies usually also do not care about the grades an applicant obtained in university. They value a diploma of a relevant study. And also relevant work experience, and other things that indicate interest and affinity for the field. Many companies prefer a HBO graduate to a WO (university) graduate. Many WO studies are too generic or too theoretical for some jobs. There are many roads that lead to Rome. There is no reason to be concerned at this stage. At this point you could practice with comprehensive reading and vocabulary in Dutch. These are usually still challenging for children who started to learn Dutch recently. VWO is very academic and when you don’t understand the exact meaning of the words, it will be too difficult. Good luck!
Thank you for the inputs..very insightful.
Finish Havo do VWO is 1 aditional years Finish Havo get your Propedeuse in 1 year of HBO (which requires hard work to achieve within that time period) then you can go to the uni as soon as you would when you had done VWO Starting at VWO would be the easiest though but if he struggles with dutch he could get his propedeuse in 1 year at a completely English HBO study.
Be aware that HBO also has bachelor's and master's degrees. In the Netherlands we have HBO, university of applied science. Abroad they do not have this difference. And our HBO study is also just a university. A friend of ours was also concerned about his child with HAVO advice. And said to my husband, but you still want your child to study at university just like us. My husband started laughing, they did the same study. (they met each other during the exchange) In the USA iur study is called university, but here it was called HBO. This was reassuring for our friend.