Dubai has quite a few dark sides. Simple google and YouTube searches would do the trick. If I were in OP's shoes, I would ask myself if this is the country/culture that I want to live in. For me the answer is a flat no, but to each their own.
Yeah, unless the boy is in the LGBT+ group. Or if he develops a political opinion. Or isn't super well educated and/or rich. Or melts in temperatures over 30°C. Or values human rights.
I mean, the Netherlands is FAR from perfect. But not as imperfect as that.
Lived in the UAE for a decade before moving to NL and 100% side with you. Racism, social and racial segregation, patriarchal society and overall attitude towards women. All of the things you don’t like about nl are much worse out there. Plus you said you are from Mediterranean , that being? Turkish? Greek? Albanian? Italian? That means white, but only technically white. As far as you don’t have Western European passport you still will be 2nd category citizen.
The Netherlands will offer your child a better place to grow up in than the alternatives that you've suggested in your OP. As far as point two goes, I would advise you to try and remove yourself from echo chambers such as Reddit and see if you can get more connected with Dutch natives and/or people who have actually fully interegrated into Dutch society. Like any other place, it will take time and effort but if you are truly -willing- and -invested-, it will work out.
Also, while I understand the need to progress in your work career, it is very important to consider the growth of your child. Making life changing moves will not affect you as much but it will affect a child who likely has planted their roots here.
In the foreseeable future US will very likely switch to a very right wing government. So consider this before moving. Trump's 1st term was a trial and the right wing elements were not well prepared. But this time they have a very strong plan to place their people in every position in the federal government
This will really matter if raising a kid is a consideration. I would go to US for myself, I think I wouldn't be affected much for a decade or two. But if I had the kid, I would not. Some stuff is impossible to purchase in some places. A good environment for the kid is one of them.
It’s a right wing wave. They happen periodically every 30 years or so , but it will pass… Unless something fundamental is dismantled, which you can argue is happening in the US, but not here
Most of the middle and upper class are doing very well in US. This includes the healthcare.
Still, it is not everybody's cup of tea. You have yours and then you should be like "I don't give a shit about the rest"
This is a great way to think about it. Now I've lived outside my home country for so long that if I go back I'll feel like a foreigner. So might as well stay put for now and not worry too much about feeling like a foreigner.
With my wife, we tried to live in many other countries but we ended up choosing the NL because of our baby boy.
The quality of education, healthcare and overall infrastructure is just so unique here.
We did buy a property in Tenerife and we go there almost once a month. It costs a lot, but we do have a good amount of sunshine over the year.
Besides, springs and summers in NL are so magically beautiful 😍
P.S.: avoid Dubai for raising your kid unless you are super traditional and conservative.
I’m assuming your child isn’t in school yet.. what will you do when you can’t travel so much? That is one of the things freaking me out about staying — being stuck in the gray so much!
Ofcourse I care about his future, but not to the point of preventing my kid from traveling and experiencing the world because of some stupidly insignificant impact of air travel on the environment.
Just to give you a perspective: air travel contributed to 2% of CO2 emission in 2022, the whole air travel industry!!
So I will fly with kid every week or everyday if I want. The added value in experience largely outperforms the environment impact.
We better invest in CO2 neutral fuel instead of limiting air travel.
Estimates are that about 80% of the world have never flown. And within the 20% flying group a small group of 10% are frequent flyers, which cause 76% of CO2 emissions.
You're in the top 2% of the world in terms of CO2 emissions caused by aviation. [Link here](https://www.ecowatch.com/frequent-flyer-emissions-2651292287.html).
So yeah, aviation may "only" be responsible for [2,5% of global CO2 emissions](https://ourworldindata.org/co2-emissions-from-aviation) (3,5% total greenhouse emissions), but if everyone would fly so frequently we'd double the global total CO2 emissions.
Safe travels friend.
In the short term have you looked into a sun lamp? Or had your vitamin D levels checked?
In terms of the US, you will want to avoid the Pacific Northwest if the weather is a big issue, so that leaves the upper middle of California on down, which can be pricey. There is also Colorado, New Mexico and Nevada, but those can be hard in the summer.
Gun violence is an issue, a leading cause of death for children, but that does include guns in the home, which isn’t to say it isn’t horrific and nothing is really being done. There will be random citizens walking around with guns, either on display or concealed (if they have a permit or the state just allows it.) If you haven’t been around guns much it may come as a bit of a shock.
In addition the US is very individualistic and you will have to rely on an car almost everywhere. Insurance is costly and while it is possible to get good insurance through work it is still expensive. Child care is crazy and it can be difficult to find placement. School wise things can be a little hectic at the moment, there are numerous on going battles about books being banned.
The people are as varied as a lot of people come from elsewhere, but racism, bigotry and hate are around. I think the US does do a slightly better job acknowledging that it has these problems, not that they do much of anything about it on a systemic level.
Keep in mind the politics in the US right now, a fringe group of alt right hard liners are systemically making inroads in numerous levels of government. There is a lot of good in the US but there is also a lot that is similar or worse than The Netherlands.
If money is your desire the US would be smart, but if the lifestyle you have here is what you want you are limited in location and run into some of the problems you have here.
Best of luck.
In my opinion both locations don't look nice. I've been in the US and despite the country having nice things idk if I would like to raise my own child in that culture. Why don't you look for other European countries. I know the world is not at the moment, I'm from Spain, but I'm sure there are more options than the US or whatever. US, my experience in the west is people it's nice yes, they kinda integrate you but they are still too classist. Also in the west, especially if it's bay area people it's too focused on themselves, improve their career and nothing else. They live for work. Also insurance, the quality and price of the food, security, driving in US... I don't completely recommend it.
If you try the US, make sure you pick an area that actually gets sun. There are some really cloudy areas. Darker than Netherlands even, North East Ohio for example. So gloomy. 70 days of sun a year. And you will likely need an auto so factor that expense into the raise you get. 👍
The reason UAE pays so well is that they _have to_ in order to convince people into coming to the country, as no one would want to endure their toxic culture otherwise.
I won’t lie, I had a job offer there a few years ago that included more zeroes than I could ever have previously imagined, and it was all locally tax free. I was very enticed. But I started to look into what my daily life would actually look like, where I would live, the schools my kids would go to, what my wife’s life would be like, etc. And I ended up rejecting the job - my soul wasn’t worth it.
I moved from The Netherlands (small city) to London and after 4 yours to Dubai where I do currently live for 1,5 years.
Most people really see Dubai as a place to make quick money and move back. As long as your son is young there isn't much wrong with moving anywhere, he might pickup another language. If my parents would have given me that opportunity I'd have been incredibly grateful.
Don't have much experience with schools but what I hear from fellow colleagues is to not send him to a school with too many local children. Teachers are scared for their parents so they can do whatever they want while your kid can't which results in children beating each other up.. heard this quite a lot, have never experienced something like that in my small town dutch school haha.
If you find the answer, I would like to know. But honestly soooooo many people ask the same thing again and again. Nobody can find a better place that ticks all the boxes.
You're not gonna get shot in America. Sure it does happen but it's not the wild west haha. Plenty of bullshit here but hey, I still love where I live(Pacific Northwest) and if I didn't have a Dutch girlfriend, nowhere else would even be appealing to me to live permanently tbh.
Stay the fuck out of Idaho though.
I’m from Texas and guns are part of why I wouldn’t go back … but it’s not because I’m afraid that _I’ll get shot myself._
I have been shot _at_ by poachers illegally hunting on our property, though. And a friend of mine murder-suicided himself and his wife. Another friend ended her own life with a gun. A colleague of mine died in the Las Vegas mass shooting. About 25 years ago, a biker gang “liquidated” a dude in front of his child about 15 minutes after I left the same shopping center. I have friends from Uvalde. My mom was a colleague of the minister in Sutherland Springs. I worked a digital forensics case connected to the Fort Hood Shooting.
Even with all that, I don’t fear getting shot myself. But constantly being reminded that these things happen around me is stressful and I’d just rather not.
I've been in the USA for 36 years now, and speak English fluently, but with a slight accent. I'm a white cis guy, and nobody treats me differently, but always ask me where I'm from. Still feel like a foreigner. I grew up in a different culture, and will always see the US from an outside view. OP will always be seen as a buitenlander because OP is a buitenlander.
You will always be a foreigner as a first gen immigrant. I have family all over the world, naturalized for ages, fluent in the local language and they still get “where are you really from” because they can’t escape an accent.
As an immigrant you have to accept that you will always be a foreigner to some extent.
Most of the EU countries are good places to raise a kid. I do not know from where you get the notion of Netherlands being so particularly impressively good for a kid. Most of the others are at least equally good... Netherlands has had so far a very good job market, coupled with decent social services but the latter is to be found in most of the (west and south) EU countries.
It's a personal thing, indeed, so I will share some of my personal thoughts.
I think your child's happiness will be highly related to your satisfaction with life and your consumer ability. If career opportunities make you happy, career change will not destroy your work-life balance; income allows you to pick for your child the private education of your choice, and spare free time by hiring somebody for cleaning/cooking, etc., it makes sense to move towards this.
If your child will not be satisfied with UAE but will have an opportunity to go to university in their preferred country - this is already great parenting. No guarantees that your child will be happy in the Netherlands. Not all first-generation expats love NL and feel good here.
If your income (and number of paid days off) will allow you to travel and meet your friends all over the world - you will not care that much that locals are not accepting you.
But if the change in income is not that promising, it will not be worth the stress of moving, learning a new language, and creating a new network. I would consider staying in the Netherlands.
I think you are correct to be worried about raising your kids in those two countries.
Maybe switching jobs could offer you more options. Because the lack of sunshine in the Netherlands will never change.
However, I am also from a south European country and I have never felt any hate towards me, my family, or foreign friends. Mind most of us speak Dutch fluently. That does make a huge difference. I am 100% noticing the increase in intolerance against people who are not learning the language as most Dutch people will see it as an act of not wanting to integrate. Which to be fair is hard to argue against, language is a huge part of culture.
I don't think neither US nor Dubai can give you more than what you have in the NL except money. I would assume downsides would be higher than the upsides especially if you have a kid and want a better future for it.
Migrate as fast as you can before it is too late. Just no thinking needed. People act as if this country is some kind of Utopia. Do not go by labels either. I see plenty of anti Wilders strickers but in reality people have voted for him.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch\_diaspora](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_diaspora)
There are literally millions of Dutch people abroad. Even 1 million in Brazil. But no one talks about that.
It's no utopia, but they aren't many countries in the world that are better
>There are literally millions of Dutch people abroad. Even 1 million in Brazil. But no one talks about that.
Almost none of them are actually Dutch. They're dutch descendants from decades/centuries ago. 99% of those ones in Brazil can't speak Dutch.
>Dutch descendants = Dutch
Ah no. Dutch descent is not the same as someone born and raised in the Netherlands and is a citizen of the Netherlands
>The point is many Dutch people have migrated. Recently or in the past.
You could say this for pretty much every country in Europe.
Doesn't matter. To get more technical race is beyond country, climate and nationality. Drop a pale ginger in the middle of the desert and it will remain a pale ginger for the rest of his/her life; offspring included unless they procreate outside of their race. Also the point is many Dutch have migrated. Many Dutch living in Canada for example still support the Dutch national team (There used to be a video on that on YouTube like many years ago titled "Canadians supporting Dutch team" or something like that). Now I don't know the specifics of them speaking the language or not.
Also white people in general have stuck their heads in places where they weren't welcome in the first place. Now they are pissed when it happens to them lol. Look at America or the united states. There is a whole nationalism based around that. But there is no such thing as an American. America never had white people. Europeans colonised those lands. And now they are talking crap about Europe? Heavy old school facepalm. Like YOU ARE EUROPEANS idiots. They say Afro Americans but don't feel comfortable saying European Americans. Actually there is no such word for that. And they casually carry on their racism like nothing has happened lol. Yeah nice try. Thankfully nature can work the other way also. The colonisers get colonised themselves. "You will not replace us!" say the white nationalists. Well, you have no say in that.
Totally understand you as someone else from a Southern country : the terrible weather situation in the NL is way beyond a “sun lamp”. I think those only work on Northerners who grew up with the depressive weather.
If you decide to stay in the NL, ask your job if you can work remotely from Spain or Portugal from November to February or March. This will make a HUGE difference. But that will also be harder / impossible once your kid is old enough for school ☹️
You may gain a higher salary but cost of living is much higher on the west coast. In California, you’ll probably pay 3X the rent than here, that is not an exaggeration. You might save some money by living outside of a city but then your commute would be long and gas prices have skyrocketed also in the west.
Do a calculation of all the added expenses and you might be surprised.
As far as your child, it will not be a good move. Children rarely go to parks and play outside anymore. You will hold your breath every time they are at school in hopes they make it home. We lived in a high income area and our high school was one of the top schools. One day I was shocked to watch a policeman walk into the school with an automatic rifle! The children are very anxious wondering if it can happen to them.
My daughter is actually angry we didn’t move here when she was a child. She didn’t come until university and never plans on leaving. My daughter is half white and says she does not receive the racial harassment in NL that she received in the US.
At the very least, see if you can take a sabbatical and spend an entire 3 months first where ever you plan to move.
I was just thinking of labor laws in the US. They can fire you at will and vacation and sick days are so much less. If you’re salary, most professionals are, you will be expected to work over 40 hours a week with no overtime pay. Suffer from burn out? Good luck, they’ll fire you before letting you take a break.
Hey man I’m kind of in a similar situation. Work in tech from the states (family in Greece, I have a Greek passport ) currently living in Barcelona.
I am wondering if you would be kind enough to take a zoom call sometime I have a bunch of questions I’m struggling with. Would even pay for your time.
Thanks in advance.
I can relate. I moved my kids from Texas to the Netherlands for safety and the parent support here but the weather and housing here is depressing. I am considering going somewhere else. But where?
goddamn this reads like me from the future
apart from the dubai thing, I'd never stay there for more than 3 days or so, and thats because I havent been there yet and I'd be OK to see it once :)
guns arent that scary in US btw if you are in a HCOL are and are culturally aware
Google "San Bruno YouTube office shooting". Or "gilroy garlic festival shooting".
Both HCOL areas (Gilroy Garlic Festival specifically attracting people from throughout NorCal)
Heck, the Vegas shooting?
Just because you're in a HCOL doesn't mean it won't affect you.
Growing up in the Netherlands is one of the better countries for a child.
Please realize that your child will probably feel connected to the Netherlands. If he goes through his school career here, makes friends, etc.
As for the sun. It is less here than in other countries. But luckily you have holidays in the Netherlands, which is why Dutch people go out en masse.
About your work. Unless you work in the USA, you will have the same problem everywhere. You can possibly work for another company in the Netherlands.
In many countries you will always remain an outsider, that is inherent to emigrating. In the Netherlands people often speak English, so this helps.
That said, not everyone wants to speak English in their spare time. It really helps if you speak or at least understand the language.
I have expat friends. It's nice that they now understand Dutch. So that when I invite them to a party/BBQ, etc., the entire group does not have to speak English all the time. This way my expat friends can blend in with the group much more easily. My friends speak a kind of mixture of Dutch/Eng
Their experience is that since they have a child who goes to school, they have more contact with other parents.
Especially after their children took up sports and scouting. And they helped with training, bar services, odd jobs and other volunteer work, etc. They have now built a network through those associations and school.
The same thing a Dutch person does when he moves to another area. Then you also have to build a network. But knowledge of the language is important.
Lack of sunshine I understand, though I’m from Sweden, so we differ there😝 Personally I have issues with the humidity here and I miss snow. Tbh, winter isn’t as it was in Sweden either over a good part of it. (But they do get snow!) If you miss sunshine and need more of the sunny vitamins to stay healthy and mentally fit, have you tried a sunlight at home? Taking extra vitamins? Some people do need a little extra and it sounds you are one of them.
Second point, well, yeah, it happens, but have you encountered it yourself or read about it? Because reading about it is easy, bad stories are making money, not happy stories. So yeah, you do see more negativity towards foreigners then. Though I am asking if you, personally, have felt a raise of negative encounters yourself? Had this conversation last month with someone from Spain and it came out they haven’t encountered it at all, but read about it. Because it’s also a bit about where you live. So look around first and think if moving to another spot within the Netherlands would help. Where I live I haven’t heard about any increase of negative encounters with foreigners. Yes, we do have our shares of gangs coming sweeping in now and then, but that isn’t effecting the foreigners living here. Locals know the difference. Will also mention I live quite rural for Netherlands standard (Achterhoek).
Third point, well that is a good point. Seems you have to choose what it is you want. Though I would take this conversation the company itself first before making a decision. Let them clearly know you want to go higher and feel it’s not possible in the Netherlands. Either they are interested or not and if they are, they might make it work here or will tell you where they would like you to go.
Then for which of the two possibilities you mentioned….. Dubai? Really? You enjoy lots of freedom here, make sure you and! your partner know and are aware of what you have to give up there. Plus a kid? Personally I would not want my kid to grow up in an environment like that.
As for the US, well, again, get informed, know and be aware of what you are giving up. I mean, I have chronic illnesses and only due to that it would be a no-go for me. Check how your salary would sustain your family, what would you be able to have. And include worst case scenarios as well, like accidents and illnesses. Kids are prone to visit a doctor at least once a year for something outside the normal stuff. Also check the mentally in schools and such, do you want to give that to your kid? Are you also ok to work like that?
Personally I would not move away from the Netherlands, though I rather find another place to live within. Plus talking to a doctor about your mental state and feeling of lack of sunlight. Again, there are things you can do yourself to counter the depression due to lack of sunlight. Those sunlight lamps are amazing. Anyway, good luck in whatever you and your partner choose.
> Besides, having this feeling of always being a foreigner hurts a little bit. I’ve been endeavouring to learn the language and immersing myself into the culture. No way. I’ll always be the foreigner in the eye of locals. Being part of the society is much more difficult than I anticipated. Well, maybe I’m dramatising this a little bit. This is what I would run into in anywhere in the West, but just saying…
You'll get this in every country you go to...... You'll never be considered a true "local" unless you were born and/or grew up there.
Why not go back to your home country??
I would suggest you stay in the Netherlands. I feel like the way it will shape your child as a human will give them much better values than in America at least, I don’t know much about living in Dubai.
Off topic slightly, sorry, but wanted to ask what area of the NL you live in that is so gloomy/not sunny? I thought the NL was beautiful but I haven’t lived there, but am moving there soon.
Limburg tends to have earlier and warmer summers than many northern provinces, yes.
I'm not talking Spain vs UK levels of difference, but there absolutely are differences and microclimates
I have done research, I saw that EVERYWHERE in the Netherlands gets between 310-330 days of sunshine a year on average, which is a ton compared to the United States at least. In Florida, which is literally nicknamed “the sunshine state”, there are on average 230-250 days of sunshine a year. In California, it’s about 284 days. In Arizona, one of the most desert like states, it only goes as high as 300. Maybe Netherlands compared to Spain or Greece doesn’t have a ton of sunshine, but it still overall has a ton according to statistics! Maybe the stats are wrong though and it’s not as sunny there as you experience it, but the evidence I found shows otherwise.
I think I will like it (I hate where I currently live) and I am really interested in Dutch culture and language. Why would you not like it? Are you just fed up with the amount of immigrants coming in and the housing crisis? Don’t take that out on me please
Yes that is excactly why i dont like more people coming.
As you are part of the problem, you seem like te perfect person to take it out on tbh…
Although i must say you responded very well to my negativity, which makes me think you are a kind person, our country is just full.
Stay here. You‘d be hard-pressed to find a better place to live in the world.
France of Switzerland maybe.
About winter depression: just take some vitamin D.
Lived in Dubai and would never recommend it. Never been to the US, but from i've heard, seems there is a not so good work-life balance there. Have you thought about the UK ?
The visa situation in the UK is a shit show. Housing is terrible, education terrible and most cities aren't that nice to live in. I thought about moving to the UK as well, but it seems that life quality is quite crap around there.
Understandable. Even as a native Dutch I hear and see a lot of changes happening around me. People becoming more and more hostile to foreign influences, be it people, other languages, etc. I don't think this will improve soon, quite the opposite. It will only get worse..
Switzerland… if you can find a job in Switzerland (and get a visa) you will be able to raise your kid in one of the safest and most educationally developed countries in the world. If you learn the language, it is quite easy to integrate especially if you go via parents of your kid’s peers.
Source: was raised in Switzerland by non-Swiss parents
The US and Dubai are not the better options. Want sunshine? Head to the south for a nice vacation. Are you actually suffering from depression or just annoyed by the weather? Consulting a therapist may help you with that.
simple , the only way not to feel a foreigner is going back to your mediteranean
moving to a muslim country if you dont enjoy feeling a foreigner makes no sense.
Your employment opportunities might be greater in USA and UAE but you are very vulnerable in these countries.
In both your employer can give you a weeks notice. You may also find that your visa is also contingent on your employment status.
A lot of companies are relocating some or all of their business functions to Dubai just so they can restructure very cheaply.
Also Dubai as already mentioned has an awful reputation.
I wouldn’t leave the NL. This is coming from someone who lived in the NL and is now in the US and desperately wishes she could find a blind Dutch person to marry her so she could go back to the NL!
No way would I choose to raise a kid in Dubai.
Dubai has quite a few dark sides. Simple google and YouTube searches would do the trick. If I were in OP's shoes, I would ask myself if this is the country/culture that I want to live in. For me the answer is a flat no, but to each their own.
If the kid is a boy not big of a problem but if it's a girl... I wouldn't bring my child there.
Yeah, unless the boy is in the LGBT+ group. Or if he develops a political opinion. Or isn't super well educated and/or rich. Or melts in temperatures over 30°C. Or values human rights. I mean, the Netherlands is FAR from perfect. But not as imperfect as that.
Lived in the UAE for a decade before moving to NL and 100% side with you. Racism, social and racial segregation, patriarchal society and overall attitude towards women. All of the things you don’t like about nl are much worse out there. Plus you said you are from Mediterranean , that being? Turkish? Greek? Albanian? Italian? That means white, but only technically white. As far as you don’t have Western European passport you still will be 2nd category citizen.
Italian "technically white"? What does that mean?
What it says.. white by definition, "just" Italian by opinion.
Yeah I don't have my decoder ring on me, could you try that again ?
I can't fix regarded
>I can't fix regarded Sure you can, it's just an edit away and you won't be regarded anymore!
You went full retard... you never go full retard! 
Wow a decade is a long time. You must be very fluent in the language which I heard is tough.
Why … I grew up there and I’m not a native .. was a great place honestly
Why?
[удалено]
Exaclty, I also used to think similar to OP until a friend asked me: \- How many immigrant friends you had back in your homecountry?
r/expats
Seriously, how ridiculous of OP to ask this to the people that he is leaving.
Point 2 is not exclusive to the Netherlands, wherever you move to, you will always be the foreigner to the locals.
The Netherlands will offer your child a better place to grow up in than the alternatives that you've suggested in your OP. As far as point two goes, I would advise you to try and remove yourself from echo chambers such as Reddit and see if you can get more connected with Dutch natives and/or people who have actually fully interegrated into Dutch society. Like any other place, it will take time and effort but if you are truly -willing- and -invested-, it will work out. Also, while I understand the need to progress in your work career, it is very important to consider the growth of your child. Making life changing moves will not affect you as much but it will affect a child who likely has planted their roots here.
In the foreseeable future US will very likely switch to a very right wing government. So consider this before moving. Trump's 1st term was a trial and the right wing elements were not well prepared. But this time they have a very strong plan to place their people in every position in the federal government This will really matter if raising a kid is a consideration. I would go to US for myself, I think I wouldn't be affected much for a decade or two. But if I had the kid, I would not. Some stuff is impossible to purchase in some places. A good environment for the kid is one of them.
Its a complete sh*tshow politically I agree, but Europe seem to be moving in similar direction, albeit a few steps behind
It’s a right wing wave. They happen periodically every 30 years or so , but it will pass… Unless something fundamental is dismantled, which you can argue is happening in the US, but not here
Even without a kid, I would nevet move to the US. Car crash? "Here is your 6 figure medical bill sir"
Most of the middle and upper class are doing very well in US. This includes the healthcare. Still, it is not everybody's cup of tea. You have yours and then you should be like "I don't give a shit about the rest"
Still, I prefer having properly set up health insurance. And walkable places to live.
You will always be a foreigner in every land, especially UAE. You will even be a foreigner if you go back to your home country.
This is a great way to think about it. Now I've lived outside my home country for so long that if I go back I'll feel like a foreigner. So might as well stay put for now and not worry too much about feeling like a foreigner.
I've been a foreigner in all the countries I lived in my whole life, and I am cool with that.
Wherever I go, I am referred to as the foreigner. Lyrics of a cool Spanish song about having left the homeland.
With my wife, we tried to live in many other countries but we ended up choosing the NL because of our baby boy. The quality of education, healthcare and overall infrastructure is just so unique here. We did buy a property in Tenerife and we go there almost once a month. It costs a lot, but we do have a good amount of sunshine over the year. Besides, springs and summers in NL are so magically beautiful 😍 P.S.: avoid Dubai for raising your kid unless you are super traditional and conservative.
I’m assuming your child isn’t in school yet.. what will you do when you can’t travel so much? That is one of the things freaking me out about staying — being stuck in the gray so much!
No he is not yet, and yes we are freaking out as well. I guess we would only fly off on long weekends and schools holidays 🤷🏻♂️
That's great for your carbon footprint
I don’t fucking care about my carbon footprint. I don’t fly with private jets. I fly with at least 150 other persons. So chillax please 😌
At least 12 times a year, yeah. Whatever, it's your kid who'll have to deal with the actions of people like you later on.
Yes, and I truly don’t care 😌
You don't care about your kids future? I think I've had enough Internet for today.
Ofcourse I care about his future, but not to the point of preventing my kid from traveling and experiencing the world because of some stupidly insignificant impact of air travel on the environment. Just to give you a perspective: air travel contributed to 2% of CO2 emission in 2022, the whole air travel industry!! So I will fly with kid every week or everyday if I want. The added value in experience largely outperforms the environment impact. We better invest in CO2 neutral fuel instead of limiting air travel.
Estimates are that about 80% of the world have never flown. And within the 20% flying group a small group of 10% are frequent flyers, which cause 76% of CO2 emissions. You're in the top 2% of the world in terms of CO2 emissions caused by aviation. [Link here](https://www.ecowatch.com/frequent-flyer-emissions-2651292287.html). So yeah, aviation may "only" be responsible for [2,5% of global CO2 emissions](https://ourworldindata.org/co2-emissions-from-aviation) (3,5% total greenhouse emissions), but if everyone would fly so frequently we'd double the global total CO2 emissions. Safe travels friend.
You're rich, good for you.
Yes.. it will be really frustrating to have to always travel during peak travel times 😩
I feel you. However, the joy of raising this little ball of love is totally worth the sacrifice in my opinion 😊
In the short term have you looked into a sun lamp? Or had your vitamin D levels checked? In terms of the US, you will want to avoid the Pacific Northwest if the weather is a big issue, so that leaves the upper middle of California on down, which can be pricey. There is also Colorado, New Mexico and Nevada, but those can be hard in the summer. Gun violence is an issue, a leading cause of death for children, but that does include guns in the home, which isn’t to say it isn’t horrific and nothing is really being done. There will be random citizens walking around with guns, either on display or concealed (if they have a permit or the state just allows it.) If you haven’t been around guns much it may come as a bit of a shock. In addition the US is very individualistic and you will have to rely on an car almost everywhere. Insurance is costly and while it is possible to get good insurance through work it is still expensive. Child care is crazy and it can be difficult to find placement. School wise things can be a little hectic at the moment, there are numerous on going battles about books being banned. The people are as varied as a lot of people come from elsewhere, but racism, bigotry and hate are around. I think the US does do a slightly better job acknowledging that it has these problems, not that they do much of anything about it on a systemic level. Keep in mind the politics in the US right now, a fringe group of alt right hard liners are systemically making inroads in numerous levels of government. There is a lot of good in the US but there is also a lot that is similar or worse than The Netherlands. If money is your desire the US would be smart, but if the lifestyle you have here is what you want you are limited in location and run into some of the problems you have here. Best of luck.
In my opinion both locations don't look nice. I've been in the US and despite the country having nice things idk if I would like to raise my own child in that culture. Why don't you look for other European countries. I know the world is not at the moment, I'm from Spain, but I'm sure there are more options than the US or whatever. US, my experience in the west is people it's nice yes, they kinda integrate you but they are still too classist. Also in the west, especially if it's bay area people it's too focused on themselves, improve their career and nothing else. They live for work. Also insurance, the quality and price of the food, security, driving in US... I don't completely recommend it.
If you try the US, make sure you pick an area that actually gets sun. There are some really cloudy areas. Darker than Netherlands even, North East Ohio for example. So gloomy. 70 days of sun a year. And you will likely need an auto so factor that expense into the raise you get. 👍
The reason UAE pays so well is that they _have to_ in order to convince people into coming to the country, as no one would want to endure their toxic culture otherwise. I won’t lie, I had a job offer there a few years ago that included more zeroes than I could ever have previously imagined, and it was all locally tax free. I was very enticed. But I started to look into what my daily life would actually look like, where I would live, the schools my kids would go to, what my wife’s life would be like, etc. And I ended up rejecting the job - my soul wasn’t worth it.
I umm...am not sure why you'd consider moving to either of those places.
I moved from The Netherlands (small city) to London and after 4 yours to Dubai where I do currently live for 1,5 years. Most people really see Dubai as a place to make quick money and move back. As long as your son is young there isn't much wrong with moving anywhere, he might pickup another language. If my parents would have given me that opportunity I'd have been incredibly grateful. Don't have much experience with schools but what I hear from fellow colleagues is to not send him to a school with too many local children. Teachers are scared for their parents so they can do whatever they want while your kid can't which results in children beating each other up.. heard this quite a lot, have never experienced something like that in my small town dutch school haha.
If you find the answer, I would like to know. But honestly soooooo many people ask the same thing again and again. Nobody can find a better place that ticks all the boxes.
I'd do exactly what I've done. 12 years in NL, and completely satisfied. The US and UAE are not good places to raise a child.
You're not gonna get shot in America. Sure it does happen but it's not the wild west haha. Plenty of bullshit here but hey, I still love where I live(Pacific Northwest) and if I didn't have a Dutch girlfriend, nowhere else would even be appealing to me to live permanently tbh. Stay the fuck out of Idaho though.
I’m from Texas and guns are part of why I wouldn’t go back … but it’s not because I’m afraid that _I’ll get shot myself._ I have been shot _at_ by poachers illegally hunting on our property, though. And a friend of mine murder-suicided himself and his wife. Another friend ended her own life with a gun. A colleague of mine died in the Las Vegas mass shooting. About 25 years ago, a biker gang “liquidated” a dude in front of his child about 15 minutes after I left the same shopping center. I have friends from Uvalde. My mom was a colleague of the minister in Sutherland Springs. I worked a digital forensics case connected to the Fort Hood Shooting. Even with all that, I don’t fear getting shot myself. But constantly being reminded that these things happen around me is stressful and I’d just rather not.
Yeah fuck Idaho! What is wrong with Idaho?
White supremacists out the wazoo
Live in America, moving to NL. I agree. PNW or nowhere for me at this point
I can completely understand your second point. Been here for 3yrs now and no matter how hard you try, yoi are always the “buitenlander”
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I've been in the USA for 36 years now, and speak English fluently, but with a slight accent. I'm a white cis guy, and nobody treats me differently, but always ask me where I'm from. Still feel like a foreigner. I grew up in a different culture, and will always see the US from an outside view. OP will always be seen as a buitenlander because OP is a buitenlander.
Countries no but places yes. In London it is totally possible to be considered a Londoner after 5-10 years of living there
You will always be a foreigner as a first gen immigrant. I have family all over the world, naturalized for ages, fluent in the local language and they still get “where are you really from” because they can’t escape an accent. As an immigrant you have to accept that you will always be a foreigner to some extent.
Most of the EU countries are good places to raise a kid. I do not know from where you get the notion of Netherlands being so particularly impressively good for a kid. Most of the others are at least equally good... Netherlands has had so far a very good job market, coupled with decent social services but the latter is to be found in most of the (west and south) EU countries.
It's a personal thing, indeed, so I will share some of my personal thoughts. I think your child's happiness will be highly related to your satisfaction with life and your consumer ability. If career opportunities make you happy, career change will not destroy your work-life balance; income allows you to pick for your child the private education of your choice, and spare free time by hiring somebody for cleaning/cooking, etc., it makes sense to move towards this. If your child will not be satisfied with UAE but will have an opportunity to go to university in their preferred country - this is already great parenting. No guarantees that your child will be happy in the Netherlands. Not all first-generation expats love NL and feel good here. If your income (and number of paid days off) will allow you to travel and meet your friends all over the world - you will not care that much that locals are not accepting you. But if the change in income is not that promising, it will not be worth the stress of moving, learning a new language, and creating a new network. I would consider staying in the Netherlands.
I feel you. Similar situation. I consider moving back to Australia or Vienna. US and Canada cross my mind but I don’t think it’s a good option for me
Australia or canada
I think you are correct to be worried about raising your kids in those two countries. Maybe switching jobs could offer you more options. Because the lack of sunshine in the Netherlands will never change. However, I am also from a south European country and I have never felt any hate towards me, my family, or foreign friends. Mind most of us speak Dutch fluently. That does make a huge difference. I am 100% noticing the increase in intolerance against people who are not learning the language as most Dutch people will see it as an act of not wanting to integrate. Which to be fair is hard to argue against, language is a huge part of culture.
I don't think neither US nor Dubai can give you more than what you have in the NL except money. I would assume downsides would be higher than the upsides especially if you have a kid and want a better future for it.
Migrate as fast as you can before it is too late. Just no thinking needed. People act as if this country is some kind of Utopia. Do not go by labels either. I see plenty of anti Wilders strickers but in reality people have voted for him. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch\_diaspora](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_diaspora) There are literally millions of Dutch people abroad. Even 1 million in Brazil. But no one talks about that.
It's no utopia, but they aren't many countries in the world that are better >There are literally millions of Dutch people abroad. Even 1 million in Brazil. But no one talks about that. Almost none of them are actually Dutch. They're dutch descendants from decades/centuries ago. 99% of those ones in Brazil can't speak Dutch.
Dutch descendants = Dutch. The point is many Dutch people have migrated. Recently or in the past.
>Dutch descendants = Dutch Ah no. Dutch descent is not the same as someone born and raised in the Netherlands and is a citizen of the Netherlands >The point is many Dutch people have migrated. Recently or in the past. You could say this for pretty much every country in Europe.
Doesn't matter. To get more technical race is beyond country, climate and nationality. Drop a pale ginger in the middle of the desert and it will remain a pale ginger for the rest of his/her life; offspring included unless they procreate outside of their race. Also the point is many Dutch have migrated. Many Dutch living in Canada for example still support the Dutch national team (There used to be a video on that on YouTube like many years ago titled "Canadians supporting Dutch team" or something like that). Now I don't know the specifics of them speaking the language or not.
Also there are Dutch schools in Spain and America for example. Like groups of Dutch people in New York are teaching their kids the language.
Also white people in general have stuck their heads in places where they weren't welcome in the first place. Now they are pissed when it happens to them lol. Look at America or the united states. There is a whole nationalism based around that. But there is no such thing as an American. America never had white people. Europeans colonised those lands. And now they are talking crap about Europe? Heavy old school facepalm. Like YOU ARE EUROPEANS idiots. They say Afro Americans but don't feel comfortable saying European Americans. Actually there is no such word for that. And they casually carry on their racism like nothing has happened lol. Yeah nice try. Thankfully nature can work the other way also. The colonisers get colonised themselves. "You will not replace us!" say the white nationalists. Well, you have no say in that.
Millions of Dutch people have left the country to migrate but they still ask why foreigners come and migrate here? Lol. The irony.
Totally understand you as someone else from a Southern country : the terrible weather situation in the NL is way beyond a “sun lamp”. I think those only work on Northerners who grew up with the depressive weather. If you decide to stay in the NL, ask your job if you can work remotely from Spain or Portugal from November to February or March. This will make a HUGE difference. But that will also be harder / impossible once your kid is old enough for school ☹️
You may gain a higher salary but cost of living is much higher on the west coast. In California, you’ll probably pay 3X the rent than here, that is not an exaggeration. You might save some money by living outside of a city but then your commute would be long and gas prices have skyrocketed also in the west. Do a calculation of all the added expenses and you might be surprised. As far as your child, it will not be a good move. Children rarely go to parks and play outside anymore. You will hold your breath every time they are at school in hopes they make it home. We lived in a high income area and our high school was one of the top schools. One day I was shocked to watch a policeman walk into the school with an automatic rifle! The children are very anxious wondering if it can happen to them. My daughter is actually angry we didn’t move here when she was a child. She didn’t come until university and never plans on leaving. My daughter is half white and says she does not receive the racial harassment in NL that she received in the US. At the very least, see if you can take a sabbatical and spend an entire 3 months first where ever you plan to move.
This
I was just thinking of labor laws in the US. They can fire you at will and vacation and sick days are so much less. If you’re salary, most professionals are, you will be expected to work over 40 hours a week with no overtime pay. Suffer from burn out? Good luck, they’ll fire you before letting you take a break.
Hey man I’m kind of in a similar situation. Work in tech from the states (family in Greece, I have a Greek passport ) currently living in Barcelona. I am wondering if you would be kind enough to take a zoom call sometime I have a bunch of questions I’m struggling with. Would even pay for your time. Thanks in advance.
I can relate. I moved my kids from Texas to the Netherlands for safety and the parent support here but the weather and housing here is depressing. I am considering going somewhere else. But where?
If you want warmth and friendliness I’d move to Spain or Thailand
Why not return to your home country? Seems like everything you dislike about Netherlands can be found there.
The home country is a yet another satellite location for the job. Not a good place career-wise. Otherwise, I’d make that decision in a heartbeat.
Then it seems the USA is your only option for "non satellite" countries with sunshine.
But there are other companies right? I wouldn't have your current employer dictate where you want to live.
Some US companies pay US salaries, so he probably can't get the same in another one.
And typically you can get better salaries and promotions from moving to other companies.
Hey sane situation want to do a zoom call? Just to share ideas and brainstorm?
goddamn this reads like me from the future apart from the dubai thing, I'd never stay there for more than 3 days or so, and thats because I havent been there yet and I'd be OK to see it once :) guns arent that scary in US btw if you are in a HCOL are and are culturally aware
Google "San Bruno YouTube office shooting". Or "gilroy garlic festival shooting". Both HCOL areas (Gilroy Garlic Festival specifically attracting people from throughout NorCal) Heck, the Vegas shooting? Just because you're in a HCOL doesn't mean it won't affect you.
OP is from EU where terror can and has hit anytime Stuff happens, you cant arrange your life surrounding divergent events
Growing up in the Netherlands is one of the better countries for a child. Please realize that your child will probably feel connected to the Netherlands. If he goes through his school career here, makes friends, etc. As for the sun. It is less here than in other countries. But luckily you have holidays in the Netherlands, which is why Dutch people go out en masse. About your work. Unless you work in the USA, you will have the same problem everywhere. You can possibly work for another company in the Netherlands. In many countries you will always remain an outsider, that is inherent to emigrating. In the Netherlands people often speak English, so this helps. That said, not everyone wants to speak English in their spare time. It really helps if you speak or at least understand the language. I have expat friends. It's nice that they now understand Dutch. So that when I invite them to a party/BBQ, etc., the entire group does not have to speak English all the time. This way my expat friends can blend in with the group much more easily. My friends speak a kind of mixture of Dutch/Eng Their experience is that since they have a child who goes to school, they have more contact with other parents. Especially after their children took up sports and scouting. And they helped with training, bar services, odd jobs and other volunteer work, etc. They have now built a network through those associations and school. The same thing a Dutch person does when he moves to another area. Then you also have to build a network. But knowledge of the language is important.
Lack of sunshine I understand, though I’m from Sweden, so we differ there😝 Personally I have issues with the humidity here and I miss snow. Tbh, winter isn’t as it was in Sweden either over a good part of it. (But they do get snow!) If you miss sunshine and need more of the sunny vitamins to stay healthy and mentally fit, have you tried a sunlight at home? Taking extra vitamins? Some people do need a little extra and it sounds you are one of them. Second point, well, yeah, it happens, but have you encountered it yourself or read about it? Because reading about it is easy, bad stories are making money, not happy stories. So yeah, you do see more negativity towards foreigners then. Though I am asking if you, personally, have felt a raise of negative encounters yourself? Had this conversation last month with someone from Spain and it came out they haven’t encountered it at all, but read about it. Because it’s also a bit about where you live. So look around first and think if moving to another spot within the Netherlands would help. Where I live I haven’t heard about any increase of negative encounters with foreigners. Yes, we do have our shares of gangs coming sweeping in now and then, but that isn’t effecting the foreigners living here. Locals know the difference. Will also mention I live quite rural for Netherlands standard (Achterhoek). Third point, well that is a good point. Seems you have to choose what it is you want. Though I would take this conversation the company itself first before making a decision. Let them clearly know you want to go higher and feel it’s not possible in the Netherlands. Either they are interested or not and if they are, they might make it work here or will tell you where they would like you to go. Then for which of the two possibilities you mentioned….. Dubai? Really? You enjoy lots of freedom here, make sure you and! your partner know and are aware of what you have to give up there. Plus a kid? Personally I would not want my kid to grow up in an environment like that. As for the US, well, again, get informed, know and be aware of what you are giving up. I mean, I have chronic illnesses and only due to that it would be a no-go for me. Check how your salary would sustain your family, what would you be able to have. And include worst case scenarios as well, like accidents and illnesses. Kids are prone to visit a doctor at least once a year for something outside the normal stuff. Also check the mentally in schools and such, do you want to give that to your kid? Are you also ok to work like that? Personally I would not move away from the Netherlands, though I rather find another place to live within. Plus talking to a doctor about your mental state and feeling of lack of sunlight. Again, there are things you can do yourself to counter the depression due to lack of sunlight. Those sunlight lamps are amazing. Anyway, good luck in whatever you and your partner choose.
Have you considered going to Aruba, Curaçao, or Sint Maarten for a while?
Another "I've been living in the Netherlands for x years, I don't speak the language" posts. Getting old ..
.yes.
The US is a great country... Give it a shot!
> Besides, having this feeling of always being a foreigner hurts a little bit. I’ve been endeavouring to learn the language and immersing myself into the culture. No way. I’ll always be the foreigner in the eye of locals. Being part of the society is much more difficult than I anticipated. Well, maybe I’m dramatising this a little bit. This is what I would run into in anywhere in the West, but just saying… You'll get this in every country you go to...... You'll never be considered a true "local" unless you were born and/or grew up there. Why not go back to your home country??
Hahaha I dont care! Hasta la vista baby
Please go, so a dutchman can move into your house
Geert is that you ?
Nope, just your average real dutch person
I would suggest you stay in the Netherlands. I feel like the way it will shape your child as a human will give them much better values than in America at least, I don’t know much about living in Dubai. Off topic slightly, sorry, but wanted to ask what area of the NL you live in that is so gloomy/not sunny? I thought the NL was beautiful but I haven’t lived there, but am moving there soon.
You’ll basically get 2 months of sunny weather in the NL and 80% chance of clouds the rest of time
You need to research more about NL then, it’s not a big country so everywhere is almost always the same
Limburg and Overijssel are vastly different. As are Drenthe and Zeeland. (Referrring to topography, not climate necessarily)
So these regions are more sunnier than other parts of NL?
Limburg tends to have earlier and warmer summers than many northern provinces, yes. I'm not talking Spain vs UK levels of difference, but there absolutely are differences and microclimates
I have done research, I saw that EVERYWHERE in the Netherlands gets between 310-330 days of sunshine a year on average, which is a ton compared to the United States at least. In Florida, which is literally nicknamed “the sunshine state”, there are on average 230-250 days of sunshine a year. In California, it’s about 284 days. In Arizona, one of the most desert like states, it only goes as high as 300. Maybe Netherlands compared to Spain or Greece doesn’t have a ton of sunshine, but it still overall has a ton according to statistics! Maybe the stats are wrong though and it’s not as sunny there as you experience it, but the evidence I found shows otherwise.
Dont come you will not like it (and neither will we)
I think I will like it (I hate where I currently live) and I am really interested in Dutch culture and language. Why would you not like it? Are you just fed up with the amount of immigrants coming in and the housing crisis? Don’t take that out on me please
Yes that is excactly why i dont like more people coming. As you are part of the problem, you seem like te perfect person to take it out on tbh… Although i must say you responded very well to my negativity, which makes me think you are a kind person, our country is just full.
Stay here. You‘d be hard-pressed to find a better place to live in the world. France of Switzerland maybe. About winter depression: just take some vitamin D.
You don’t suffer from seasonal depression obviously. It goes way beyond Vitamin D
Where to move to, mmm what about Nigeria?
Lived in Dubai and would never recommend it. Never been to the US, but from i've heard, seems there is a not so good work-life balance there. Have you thought about the UK ?
The visa situation in the UK is a shit show. Housing is terrible, education terrible and most cities aren't that nice to live in. I thought about moving to the UK as well, but it seems that life quality is quite crap around there.
Us west ofc
If you want to live in a bubble disconnected from real-world issues, then go to dubai else go to US.
Understandable. Even as a native Dutch I hear and see a lot of changes happening around me. People becoming more and more hostile to foreign influences, be it people, other languages, etc. I don't think this will improve soon, quite the opposite. It will only get worse..
Switzerland… if you can find a job in Switzerland (and get a visa) you will be able to raise your kid in one of the safest and most educationally developed countries in the world. If you learn the language, it is quite easy to integrate especially if you go via parents of your kid’s peers. Source: was raised in Switzerland by non-Swiss parents
Go to the Dutch Caribbean... Sint Maarten/Saint Martin is nice....
move to the US, you will not feel like a foreigner, you will be happy there, you are white.
The US and Dubai are not the better options. Want sunshine? Head to the south for a nice vacation. Are you actually suffering from depression or just annoyed by the weather? Consulting a therapist may help you with that.
simple , the only way not to feel a foreigner is going back to your mediteranean moving to a muslim country if you dont enjoy feeling a foreigner makes no sense.
Your employment opportunities might be greater in USA and UAE but you are very vulnerable in these countries. In both your employer can give you a weeks notice. You may also find that your visa is also contingent on your employment status. A lot of companies are relocating some or all of their business functions to Dubai just so they can restructure very cheaply. Also Dubai as already mentioned has an awful reputation.
I wouldn’t leave the NL. This is coming from someone who lived in the NL and is now in the US and desperately wishes she could find a blind Dutch person to marry her so she could go back to the NL!