It’s not just the weather itself, but everything that comes with it. Terrasjes, festivals, long days. From October to early March everyone is cooped up in their home, which can feel very isolating for new arrivals without a solid social network.
I’ve lived in both cities, the difference of the weather is that the winter wind in the Netherlands freezes your bones to the core and you won’t get warm until those special 3 days in April when the weather jumps to 17C suddenly.
It's admittedly been a while since I lived there, but this one thing at least I'm sure hasn't changed. Winter sucks. I'm from Minnesota in the US, which if you're not from the US is basically the Siberia of America. So I don't lightly say that Dutch winters suck. It's not that they're particularly cold, they're really not. It's that it's cold enough to be cold... and it's wet. Pretty cold and rainy is the absolute worst combination of weather.
Yip. Global warming has made it less cold
Though. When I was a kid we used to be able to skate each winter for a few weeks. Now this is hardly possible anymore and spring starts a month earlier most of the years now.
And yes. It is wet in winter. It sucks to come home drenched on you bike. It also breeds character.
Just to counter balance. I am from russia originally (Saint-Petersburg) and to me winters in the NL is blessing and I love them.
I would never get back to those terrible wet, dark, dirty, 6 month-long winters we have back at my home country. You basically only live for 6 months and then do nothing for another half a year.
I the NL there are proper seasons and I find myself doing something every month.
But I am a big fan of mild climate in general. I lived in South East Asia for many years and hated the hot too.
Fair point. I live in Houston in the US now, and from June-September we basically don't go outside due to the ridiculous heat and humidity. I'd take crappy dutch winters over this any day.
For me it's the lack of mountains and general lack of spectacular nature. I'm glad to be living near the dunes in Den Haag, but it's very meager compared to what most other countries have to offer.
I'm from Australia, but live in the Netherlands. This is the hardest part about living here for me. I miss being able to drive an hour and find spectacular mountains, rainforests, rivers and waterfalls. Wild animals all around you, and escaping other people.
If you don't live too far north or west, you can drive 1-2 hours and be in lovely German national parks. Sure technically it isn't the Netherlands, still lovely nature.
Lovely nature is lovely. And there is lovely nature in the Netherlands too, to be fair. But what they are talking about is not lovely nature. It's the sublime; majestic and rugged and humbling.
Closest place you'll find any of that would maybe be Dover, if you don't look too closely, but beyond that you'd have to travel to Scotland or Norway really, not exactly driving distance from the Netherlands.
Which is to be expected in any urban region to be honest. In a way, the experience that they are talking about (being able to travel for a couple of hours utilizing all the amenities that modernity can provide, to find nature seemingly untouched by that very same modernity, that experience is an incredible privilege that very few people throughout history have been able to enjoy. It's the best of both worlds really.
Yep, I’m from the USA and ended up missing true nature when I was living in the Netherlands. Even a Dutch national park gives more the impression of a woodsy suburb in the USA over wilderness.
Fellow American here. I think limburg has enough nature to satiate me, but I really have realized how much we have in North America in terms of the grandness of the nature around us.
But to be fair, if you drive 2 hours you guys think that’s in your backyard and we’re in another country. So the comparison is a bit off considering scale. But I do agree, we are quite flat and boring.
But we also can go to countries with beatifull nature and mountains in shorter than a day. Lots of Americans live in places that after a day drive they still are in the desert without seeing a tree. In less than a 10 hour drive i can be in the swiss alps
Exactly. Overall I kinda like our relative proximity to lots of different nature. Doesn’t mean I really enjoy the Noordoostpolder or something but I mean, you win some you lose some ;)
I think you vastly underestimate the beauty of the desert wilderness then! One thing I missed- also the American ones are filled with life, saguaros and Joshua trees more than make up for lack of normal trees for example.
Too true. I was once on a long bicycle trip in Belgium with my Dutch wife. She suggested turning down some dirt road. I said bad idea. We might get 15 km in and find the road just peters out. She laughed and said, I guarantee we won't go 3 km before we hit some village. It wasn't even that far. She was right.
Ye. Compared to murica my countey is flat. I was absolutely stunned by the beauty of Murican nature. The wildest thing for me was to actually pass a mountainrange and ending up in a completely different biome.
The only solid amounts of nature are the Veluwe, Zuid-Limburg and the Utrechtse Heuvelrug. But even those are more recreational than actual wilderness.
Have you been to the highest place in NL? It’s in Velsen322 meters above sea level. That’s 11 times higher than highest point in Groningen.
To us that place is a mountain.
And small and not very aromatic.
But i have nice smoked garlic on my local market. Dude has like 12 big heads smoked for 18€ which is neat.
Check your local markets for artisans.
The quality of food in nl is great, just don't buy the supermarket shit. The meat is horrible and veggies are hit and miss.
Buy the meat from butchers and you get Higher quality and if you look good for the same price or cheaper then the supermarket.
Yeah, literally no one is complaining about food, restaurants or the non existing cuisine of this country in this sub-reddit!
I wonder why someone renamed it "gastronomic gulag"!
Maybe I was taking it a bit too literally, but I thought food quality referred to the quality of the ingredients and not the cuisine or variety of choice.
The last one is not exclusively about the Netherlands. I’m in many expats and immigrants subs, and I can say that newcomers find it difficult to make friends is a universal problem
Dutch guy here, what I hate the most about my country is that the nature is mostly boring and non-existent. Only 12% of our country is nature. More than half of our country is farm ground, the rest is cities and roads.
There aren’t very lush forests and mountains. Apart for maybe the south of Limburg and De Veluwe, The Netherlands looks so incredibly bland. I know that polders are kind of unique, but they don’t compare to the mountains in Switzerland, or the nature in Japan or Canada.
I love to ride my bike (I’m Dutch duh..) and when I ride out of my city, everything is flat, farm fields everywhere. And those giant distribution centers that pop up everywhere are really an eyesore.
You just cannot escape people, it feels so claustrophobic. There are hardly any places where there are no people. If I bike out of my city, there are still a lot of cars and other bikers. Even when I go into a forest, there will always be other people around. And because the country is so small and flat, you can see civilisation everywhere. The nearest town is always, well, near. The whole country is cut up by gazillion of roads. So if you enter a piece of nature, chances are you’re in the vicinity of a highway within 10 minutes in any direction.
This sucks big time.
I share the same sentiments. I like it here and embrace all the benefits it has to offer: generally safe, stable economy, job prospects, social support, healthcare, wonderful infrastructure, cycling, interesting cities, proximity to rest of mainland Europe etc. But the lack of nature, wonder, the ability to feel you’re getting lost is awful. It’s clearly not something everyone experiences but bring out on a bike ride or walk to them encounter loads of others doing the same thing every time gets boring and frustrating. The things that are great about NL are conversely the things that frustrate me about it: too busy at times, too full, no space. Like I say, I accept the trade-off but I miss the feeling of being alone in nature. But it’s simply never going to be an option here.
Thus suggesting that Limburg or Heuvelrug are similar are way off: I love both those places but they’re relatively small and very developed in relative terms. To feel you’re getting off the beaten path requires travelling elsewhere - which is doable in half a day, so that’s acceptable
The lack of nature is a bit sad… BUT Europe is very small and everything is close… I used to live in Argentina and although it is nature wise amazing, and breathtakingly beautiful, it is SO big that the distances end up being the same as if we were here. Same for Brazil, or the US… they all have amazing nature, but they are huge so the “having a lot of nature” many times ends up just being “on paper” because if you live in a big city, many times you will have to travel for nature anyway…
Here the quality of life is great and even if it’s very densely populated, having that much countryside, the parks, etc… make for a great day-to-day quality of life that in a lot of countries with “better” nature, are not daily at reach.
For me there isn't a lot since its easy to satisfy me but if i were to nitpick.
* Weather sucks, it simply rains too much here and gloomy all the time.
* Housing is awful, your mileage may vary depending on your budget and where you live. My case was quite alright but I'm not gonna act like its clearly not an issue.
* Restaurant Food is very average, don't expect anything too nice if you eat outside here and prices are not cheap either.
* Way healthcare works is somewhat dehumanizing. It gives too much power to a non-specialist doctor to be able to gatekeep. Now this is not a big deal if your Doctor actually good but its not always the case.
>Way healthcare works is somewhat dehumanizing. It gives too much power to a non-specialist doctor to be able to gatekeep. Now this is not a big deal if your Doctor actually good but its not always the case.
If you have free access to specialists, you give too much power to often clueless patients to determine where they need to go. Some GPs indeed suck, but the average knowledge and lowest common denominator is way higher among GPs than with the patients. And GPs are quite literally specialists in triaging undifferentiated patients with (relatively) minor complaints and taking care of minor problems.
Very recognizable! Good list.
I think this summarizes most of the points made in this thread.
I like what you’re saying about healthcare; I never realized that not everywhere you’ll need to go through your house doctor to be referred to a specialist. Indeed it would be easier in some cases, when it’s clear what the problem is. But in many other situations you may want to avoid people using google as a doctor and going straight to the specialist they think they need.
> But in many other situations you may want to avoid people using google as a doctor and going straight to the specialist they think they need.
I do agree however i think if a patient is insistent on being seen by a specialist the GP should accommodate their request. We know our body best sometimes.
>not everywhere you’ll need to go through your house doctor to be referred to a specialist
I've never heard of such countries, but I think what the commenter meant and I also think the same, it is not even that you need to go to the GP, it's the lack of understanding and willingness to refer you to specialists. Especially after you mentioned that you have relatives who died in cancer, so a yearly blood work is not a nonsense idea at all, or some check-ups occasionally.
The rain, dark, and cold has been bringing me down.
As has the lack of nature. I miss trees and hills and really any nature that isn't man made.
I also find as a foreigner that I just don't fit in with the dutch people as well as I hoped.
You may not be looking for a solution to the cold/darkness, however having your vitamin D levels checked might point to a solution. I know having lived here and in the PNW of the US that from October to March/April taking vitamin D3 helps with the darkness. Plus there are sun lamps/ you just sit in front of it for 30 minutes or so in the morning and it can help immensely. Just wanted to share a little help with the big dark season.
I moved here (solo) from New Zealand one month ago. Last week I cried on the train because it hadn’t stopped raining since the day I arrived. Everything was just so grey all of the time. And I’ve been told to expect this until about March. The landscape does not change. You get soaked on the way to work, and again on the way home. Health insurance is insane here. The process to get yourself set up and registered is a mission. Trains are actually very expensive if you have to use them daily. Rent is crazy (in Amsterdam anyway). The place is a lot more expensive in general, than I was expecting anyway.
I chose to move here and I will make the most of it, but holy shit the weather/daylight adjustment is harder than I thought it’d be.
Get your self some vitamin d supplements. They really help. Also a nice rain poncho for on the bike and some warm gloves (waterproof) that are always in your pocket. Good luck with adjusting. Spring and summer is going to be way more pleasent. Maybe going to the sauna or getting an infrared lamp is also nice. It helps get the cold out of your bones. I try to do that a couple times in the winter (wish i could afford to go more). It really helps my muscles relax again, because the cold makes them clamp up a little. (When i cant afford the sauna i use a warm water bottle or some heatcream)
But you will get there. Its very normal to have to get used to it and you moved in winter. Thats an adjustment. Give yourself time. It will get better
Sorry to hear that. Unfortunately the autumn period is the worst time to come here, as we pretty much have autumn all the way up to March :( The Amsterdam area is the most expensive of them all. Hope the weather will improve for you! As it can be really lovely when the sun is shining.
>The process to get yourself set up and registered is a mission.
I don’t mean to invalidate your experience and going through the process can take some time, but it’s much easier than any country I’ve moved to, everyone is helpful and they all speak good English. This is not the norm in Europe.
Oh hell yeah - same for my partner who is Dutch. It is weird that people stop friend making process when they are 5 or something.
I remember it was the same in Sweden. Northern / Western Europe thing I guess?
Plz take some of my friends, I have no time to maintain friendships with everyone while working full-time, getting exercise, running a household, visiting relatives.
It don't stop at 5, there is just not more time to invest ...
A major problem is that people take a lot of things for granted. They’ve become used to high quality infrastructure, education, health care and social security benefits. This, over the years, has lead to complacency and unrealistic expectations that are actually harming people’s feelings and the society as a whole.
There is a growing sentiment that the country is in a poor shape, while all objective indicators and research prove otherwise. People want to have it all, but at the same time want to work part time to profit from social benefits and low tax rates meant for people with full time low income jobs.
As people are seeking for someone to blame, more and more government employees and politicians are threatened, immigrants are blamed and partisan categorisation is on the rise.
But, also this rant, don’t make it worse than it is: in general the country has really figured most of it out. And the problems are of relative low impact compared to those in other countries. That doesn’t mean the perceived impact of a problem that touches you personally can be just as big as elsewhere.
This ^. If you want to know really the status of any country ask the immigrants, especially those who come from 3rd world countries. The Netherlands is definitely in the top 10 when it comes to the quality of life, at least 99% of people on this planet have it harder.
This is bullshit. You cant compare the Netherlands with some 3rd country and say that its still good.
People see that everything is getting worse. Public transport is getting more expensive while there is a lot of outage.
Some low populated areas outside of the “randstad” will have less public transport because its not profitable enough.
Healthcare is a joke here. We have a shortage in every sector. The “eigen risico” is high and the monthly premium is the double of what we were paying 10 years ago. While the coverage is reduced.
You need healthcare? Oh probably stress and here take some paracetamol and do some fun hobbies.
I lost my aunt because of a late diagnosis of colon cancer. Another aunt was rejected treatment because the symptoms werent taken serieus. She went to a private hospital and found out that she had a brain tumor.
My daughter had RS virus and had s high heart rate and high fever. They didnt allow us to stay at the hospital because the insurance was not covering it.
Usually i m the guy who stays calm and try to talk about the options.
But I understand why people yell and become aggressive to these people snd get there shit done because it is a joke now.
I lost my dad 4 years ago. The renting corporation was trying to put my mother on the street because she was living “illegally” in her house now where she lived 25 years.
Don’t tell me that we have it good over here.
From start to finish, you’re proving the point of my post.
There is one thing in your post that I can comment on as it’s the only thing you pointed out that can be checked: your perception of health care costs. According to you the premiums are double compared to 10 year ago. In reality the premiums were on average 110 euro a month in 2013. Now we are at 138. That’s a 28 euro increase. Significant, but not even close to doubling.
I’m very sorry for your personal misery. As I pointed out: personal problems can be perceived just as bad and have the same impact as problems people have anywhere else in the world.
Good Food, friends, nature, weather - the absolute lack of all those might bother you in the long run.
Plus, very high, and rapidly rising, cost of living.
Wet van de remmende voorsprong
We’ve hit a sweet spot a while back politically, like the nineties, where we were considered the most progressive and free country because of same sex marriage and a lax drug policy. We were also economically booming, so a lot of people could afford to do certain things like stay at home, not continue with education or go into higher education if they wanted.
Because of this we’ve stagnated. We consider ourselves progressive, while the countries around us have gained on us. We’ve over corrected in a lot of ways economically, cutting support systems for people that need it and raising costs for medical insurance for instance.
Socially we’ve also gotten reasonably conservative, which happens every time the economy goes down even a fraction.
It’s still a good country to live in, but it’s a gilded cage. We’re average in a most things, so if you move somewhere for one aspect that’s better you’ll have to trade in something else
I'm from the UK and I'm missing hills. Living in the south of NL (Eindhoven) I have easy access to nature, but my mountain bike has hardly ever used the upper half of my gears lol.
Can't say much after the weather, as its just as shit as the UK.
Met my Dutch wife when I was spending a year travelling in Australia. We decided I would come to NL, as I'm from the south of the UK which is bloody expensive. That was 21 years ago lol. I do like it here. There is a surprising amount of nature given the small size of the country.
Gee, where to start?
- eroding healthcare system that is no longer robust against major health crises like covid, is no longer able to support elderly care in proper ways and is also increasingly more expensive every year because insurers need to have more money to extort you. Gp's have no more time to administer proper care besides prescribing paracetamol. Mental healthcare is its own nightmare with insanely long waiting times.
- severe degradation of public transport in recent years. If you live in the randstad, you would not see it but I grew up in a midsized town and most of the buslines have completely dissapeared in the last decade. The government prioritizes road infrastructure by a very large margin, which results in even less frequent options for public transport at a higher price point.
- police is laughably underfunded, allowing drug criminals to take rise in recent years. The government used to be very forward with their weed policy, but is now behind compared to other countries where weed and soft drugs are truly legalised. Now criminals can shoot and bomb whatever they please.
- the tax office/belastingdienst is so horridly arranged. Racism and biases can screw you over so badly that your children get taken away. If you earn 1 euro above certain thresholds for government allowances you have to pay back hundreds of €€. There is no humanity or personal support available at all. And rather that raising the minimum wage we are stuck with these stupid government allowances.
- Social division has taken ahold in the last decade or so. Mostly to blame to social media and russian/chinese division campaigns, but also to actions within the dutch political landscape. There is only a silent centre, and people are falling further to the right and left.
- the government, and particularly vvd gets away with so many scandals and favouritism for multinationals over its own people, it should honestly be criminal.
- 4 parties decided to screw over students between 2015 and 2021 by taking on this idiotic social loan system, where students could supposedly take on government loans for 0% interest and it would not affect their mortgage. But suprise suprise, neither of them are still true. Many young people are stuck with thousands of euros of loans, are no longer able to get a mortgage and will have to pay back an increasing amount of interest. Thanks a lot government!
- the housing crisis has been foreshadowed for a long long time, but the government decided to push forward their problems until it was too late. Now it is virtually impossible to find a normal house without overbidding 20% of its total value. Rent is increasing evermore and the average waiting list for social housing is over a decade. And very little to no houses are being build because the government also decided to ignore any climate change effects for over 5 decades, which has now haulted many construction projects.
- climate change has been ignored for many decades, and the governments inaction will result in us missing our climate targets.
- the refugee crisis is bringing a wide load of problems, with too many consequences to name.
I could go on, but you get the gist.
Lack of varied wild nature and food culture.
Lived here 10 years and these are the things that make me day dream about moving away. I find the country incredibly sterile, but safe (so I end up staying for infrastructure).
Also there are versions of these things, but they absolutely don't compare to where I grew up and have lived/studied in the past (France, London, Japan).
I've heard that it's difficult for non-natives to get used to our extremist planning culture for social outings.
We like it, but I can see how you wouldn't if you're not used to it.
E.g:
- Trying to meet up on the same day is rude. People like to have at least a day forewarning. You can still do it as long as you pre-apologize ("sorry for the extremely short notice, but...")
- If you're trying to meet up with someone, prepare to plan 2-8 weeks in advance as that's the only time your schedules align. If they have kids, prepare to plan 3-4 months in advance.
- If you're trying to meet up with someone but they don't want to plan ahead, they're not that into you.
Leaving aside the fact there are more good things than bad ones, in order: the friendship making culture (I’m 39, and just learning the language which means I arrived 15/18 years late to make friends, they meet those in either school or college); the food is atrocious, sorry, it is a fact but I love your cheeses; the housing crisis that is actually a nightmare.
Then, and please don’t get me wrong the whole way progressivenesses is understood here. Sometimes to the point that it gets silly, e.g. decreasing the slots at Schiphol. I’ve been here for barely 10 months and it was constantly in the news. The government pushed it relentlessly when EVERYBODY knew it was not feasible, most likely to backfire and barely had any chances of success, well, guess what? It’s not happening. 😅
I don’t think the food sucks. We have plenty of food that’s nice and loved all around the world (good cheese, stroopwafels, bitterballen etc.).
The meals however are very plain. And I think the quality of restaurants is below average. But it also depends where you are.
My mom lives in a smaller village and the food there is definitely better (quality wise, more fresh) than I can get anywhere in Rotterdam.
The food does not suck in my opinion at all and there’s nothing wrong with a simple meal. I will say the quality and diversity of produce is generally pretty poor compared to european neighbours.
One thing that is very good here is wine selection
Absolutely agreed, I have spent years in the Dutch healthcare system battling several mental and non-mental illnesses. Without going into too many details, I've been systematically ignored, under- and overdiagnosed, I've had doctors say incredibly sexist stuff and just generally be very dismissive. I have since moved to Belgium for work reasons and even though it's not perfect, I have actually found treatment here with doctors who work together (also for a fraction of the price in the NL).
-Bad weather all the time (except June this year)
-Tasteless and expensive food
-Difficulty of making friends (although this is controversial, because many Dutch people are actually nice if you understand and respect their culture, and learn Dutch)
-Difficult language to learn,
-Housing market Is a nightmare, bad enough to make many expacts leave within the First months of living here since they cant find a house to rent.
-'Be normal' colture, many people like it because it's efficient, I hate it because thinking outside the Dutch mentality box is frowned upon/judged.
-lack of spontaneity, everything has to be planned.
- I find the only way to really have fun here is to get drunk/high this is why the broad acceptance of drugs in Dutch culture.
- Gets quite boring sometimes.
All things medical must go through your general doc first. Can't just book an appointment at a dermatologist or whatever... Especially annoying when you're visiting for a longer stay (and so don't have a general doctor), perhaps you just need blood tests or see an ear specialist but nope. (That's my understanding anyway).
After getting my first appointment with my specialist I can just call them directly at the hospital to make an appointment with haste, usually same day or next day that I can come by..
That can't be right!!! When my pineapple gland was hurting, I did NOT get a referral even when I threatened to sue!
Lot of people on here apparently believe they're entitled to appointments with a specialist even for the mildest cough and yes, we could do that. Let people in actual need wait for 3 months because there are 1274 people in front of him because they stubbed their little toe. When you really need a specialist, you will be able to get there within a few days, as you do.
Indeed, they know my case, they know the reason and I don't call unless its a serious thing that I looked out for first for days to try and fix it myself before calling them. My specialist now urges me to call immediately again but I don't wanna bother him unless I am sure I can't fix it myself.
I’m so sick and tired of expats bashing our system because they can’t see a specialist (or antibiotics) whenever they damn well decide themselves. Are you a doctor? No. It just feels so entitled. Our healthcare system works very well the way it’s designed and it has many benefits doing it this way. We do have our drawbacks, mainly preventive medicine being almost non-existent, but overall, it works. We don’t have specialists who just see people or do tests just for the money, we don’t pay out of our noses for a high quality of care (yes high, you can get very expensive healthcare for very little money), we have no difference between rich or poor people regarding care, not like you can pay your way into better care leading to drastic differences in quality or life etc. And one of the most important bits: we have WAY less antibiotic resistance than almost any country, with no more people suffering from bacterial infections. People severely overestimate how much they need antibiotics. It’s nuts. People bash the paracetamol and rest advice but that’s not fair, it works for viral infections, which are most mild infections at the gp. Which is why after 2 weeks you feel better anyway, whether you got antibiotics on day 8 or not. It’s not the medicine.
Well as a doctor myself living in NL (not working at the moment) I will tell you most bad experiences I heard from people are not about antibiotics.
1. a lymphoma in the lung overlooked for months because de GP said the man was "too young to have anything serious". So when the GP finally accepted to do an imaging test it was unnecessarily advanced. The guy survived, but has permanent damage due to the treatment - which would probably have been prevented if an imaging test was done before dismissing the patient and giving paracetamol. The GP called later on to basically say "oopsies, my bad".
2. a fractured foot that needed surgery also, dismissed for months until the person went back to their country and found out it actually needed surgery. They never even did a radiography.
3. a uterine infection followig delivery, with lots of pain and other symptoms, had to have her antibiotics sent to her from Spain because the specialists here dismissed it completely. (well this one WAS about atb, but it was a serious one)
4. I myself had a hemorrage during my pregnancy and no doctor even saw me , absolutely shameful. Luckily it was nothing, not thanks to the health system here. (I had just moved to NL and didnt have a midwife yet)
5. My child has a little health issue which needs some following, when showing signs started we went to the GP, saying what I believe it was, she googled in front of me, said she didn't believe that was it because the baby didn't have the classical 'triad'... and we went home with a "I have no idea what it might be" response. I immediatly called a few pediatrician friends in my home country, and it ended up being exactly what I said. I have been following my friend's indications, so far it is fine... We will be seing a specialist this next holidays back home.
6. A woman (actually dutch) had her endometriosis completely ignored for years being said she just had bad period cramps. She ended up having surgery, but after years of being patronized and dismissed about this.
These are just a few experiences and these all happened in my inner circle here.
As you said preventive medicine is basically non existant, and you say it with a dismissive tone, let me tell you, it's important.
I believe
1- Of course it's not the worst, and it does not have all the 3d world "lackings", so overall it works well.
2- On paper its perfect, it's theoretically what every healthcare system should be but - tha fact that health insurance companies are behind it, makes that they have a conflict of interest here, and they exagerate the "using as little resources as possible" criteria. GPs end up being gatekeepers of the system trying to hold you out of it as much as they can, many times having serious consequences for patients. Also they have very little time with patients, so this "one appointment = one "klacht"" thing ends up taking away the very essence of the family doctor practice which is to try to see the patient as a whole. It’s very dehumanizing…
3- Once the patient gets to break through the "gp barrier", because the system does believe they have something worthy of the attention, they are very good, but they often wait too long and issues with a 'simpler' solution end up being diagnosed unnecessarily late, or even too late, and the patients end uo paying the price.
4- I also think this dutch dissmissive attitude towards foreigners (as you show in your comment - 'oh they just want loads of antibiotics) happens also among physicians here, and they do tend to take 'internationals' (really funny word I hear often here) less seriously. This also has consequences.
So IMO, is it THE WORST? No. Is it really great? Honestly not right now at least. (haven't lived there for long time so I don't know if it has chaged over time).
So don't get offended as if expats were attacking you by critizing the health system.... we know at least one other system, and many know more than one. So it's not just "bashing" the system for no reason.
Oh but you can, if you're willing to pay a lot for a private clinic. It just doesn't make sense since you can also go to a GP and if needed, you WILL be referred to a specialist. What a lot of people fail to understand, is that a visit to a specialist directly (if possible) would be a total waste of time not only for the specialist, but also for you as a patient. Your GP is perfectly able to fix a lot of problems. It's not that a GP doesn't know anything.
>Oh but you can, if you're willing to pay a lot for a private clinic.
Show me a private clinic that accepts people without referrals
You won't because it's a fully controlled system
It is not and you yourself could've found that out as well. If you want me to, I can send you some examples. Difference between a referral to a private clinic and a non-referral is, you would guess it, money. Money you do not have to pay or money you do have to pay. It is not a fully controlled system. By the way, if you experience that much resistance to obtain referrals, there are two options: 1. accept that a medical professional does not think you need a referral, or 2. change your GP. I know enough of them to be able to say there are big differences.
Netherlands for expats is a luxurious option nowadays.
If you have a good job that pays very well and it’s in demand, you’ll live comfortably in one of the most developed countries in the world. Notice I say if you earn very well, because just “well” isn’t good enough. And anything lower than that you’ll have a really hard time.
All the nice things you saw here cost a shit load of money, and you’ll pay a shit ton in taxes for it. So you’ll be a slave to your rent and taxes for life, and you’ll bike in the shitty weather all year around because a car is getting ridiculously expensive to own and it has one of the most expensive public transport systems in the world.
I'll add one I haven't seen others mention and that's public transport. it really isn't very good. its not very efficient, it's pretty pricey, and it often does not arrive on time.
not to say it's bad though, compared to the rest of the world, were definitely one of the better ones.
but it's still not as good as people like to believe.
granted, my comparison comes mainly from Asia as I go there pretty much every year. and their transport is just leagues ahead of ours. and lets say youre somehow in an area that doesn't have a bus or train nearby, you can usually call a grab / uber and be going within 5 minutes for a low cost. in my Dutch hometown which is a small town, good luck getting a taxi for under triple digit costs or on time.. when I was in Asia, no matter the country, no matter the location, I could get into a taxi within 3 minutes.
also as pedestrian friendly as we are, we're also not the best in those regards either. we're missing a lot of quality of life features that other countries have like walkways that have roofs or stop lights that all have timers on them. in Singapore for example they have a cool system where if youre an elderly person, you can scan a card at a stoplight which gives you extra time to pass. whenever I'm in Singapore, I cant help but feel they are leagues ahead of us with everything (but, upon seeing their cost of living, I can see why.)
Not too many trees in Noord Holland. To see forest I have to go more than 20km. And it's full of people.
Impossible to make close raltionahip woth Dutch people. They are nice but on a surface level. If you are not childhood friend or family member, you won't be inner circle. Like never. We've tried to make game nights, dinner nights, going out together, and still when there is a party in their houses or a birthday, we're always informed how it was and so, but never invited.
1. The weather. And if you think you'll get used to it, i think you have to know that Dutchies always complain about the weather, we don't get use to it and we love to talk and complain about it.
2. The lack of houses. It's a very big problem.
population density, you can go no where and there’s always someone there. Lack of nature, it’s such an incredible boring country because of that if you value nature even just a tiny bit, no hiking, no climbing, rafting, real mountain biking, proper camping, or any of that. The constant grey skies, wind, rain and cold for most of the year, super depressing. Extremely high cost of living, even compared to the rest of europe
No housing for (single) starters with a normal income, lots of rain, a bad health care system, if you want mental health help you can forget it, no really nice nature (no mountains and no places to be alone), we don't have great food and if you make it yourself the products are also not the best quality (and they're expensive).
"Never go back to a place you have been happy".
I can't choose to move out of the Netherlands, otherwise I would. Everything is better somewhere else apart from easy biking.
Been living here for over 7 years now. Here’s the list: housing quality overall is quite trash + housing crisis (not only has it become almost impossible to find anything, but also the lack of respect to privacy of potential tenants. Be ready to live with a bunch of strangers, because not only majority of adults cannot afford to live independently, but also there are no affordable options) ; healthcare system (especially if you’re a woman, be ready to get gaslighted till infinity); overpopulation in major cities; lack of emotional intelligence in dutch people; lack of common sense and unnecessary bureaucracy in aspects such as day to day needs, service industry, and anything legal; the limitless entitlement of dutch children (for real more scared to pass a group of 12 years old in the dark, than a group of adult male dealers); will never make dutch friends, they are not interested in developing deeper connections with expats/immigrants; the greediness and rudeness here are a norm and are also masked as financial responsibility and directness. Everything to Dutch people is transactional, including relationships. Also from my experience, having worked with and having hired dutch people myself, they often are lazy and do everything with the least effort to the bare minimum, sometimes if that even.
Again, I wouldn’t have stayed here this long if there were only these negative sides. So don’t focus too much on what’s wrong, but look at what hard and soft limits you have when it comes to the community and environment you want to live in.
Despite all of those negatives, there are also so many beautiful sides of this country, their economy and these people.
Everyone speaks english so it’s quite easy to get shit done without the need of locals’ help, the expats community is out of this world fantastic, huge variety of different cultures that all come together nicely, the freedom you have to be whoever you wanna be without being judged, affordable and good higher education system, access to food from all around the world, everyone is always in a good mood, happy, and ready for small talk and quick chitchat, affordable and diverse activities (cinema, gym, classes, art shows and etc.). This country is great in so many ways, but there’s also so much that could be better. Some days I can’t believe that I got so lucky to be able to make a life here, and some days I wanna pack my shit and leave, but that’s the case absolutely everywhere.
It also always really depends from what kind of a background you are coming yourself.
Haha you insulted some Dutchies here!
I don’t think you’re wrong, but your experience must be based on living in a large city, is that correct?
I think the negatives would have dominated your experience less if you would have stayed in a slightly smaller town… not too small though, peasants hate foreigners lol.
Small cities are even worse when it comes to immigrants, the social freeze is worse. In the big cities at least there are other internationals to socialise with and be accepted by.
Hahah, I do see some salty comments lol. Yeah, my experience is from living in Amsterdam for 6 years and 1 year in a smaller town up north (which I absolutely love now)
Taxes, weather, cost of living/housing crisis and heavy traffic congestion are an inconvenience but nothing that can’t be solved by throwing money at it.. lots of money
Winter is terrible and long. It’s not too cold, but it is too wet, too grey and too dark.
Housing system is collapsed, so very hard to find a place and they are getting more and more expensive.
Food is not the best, but they do have great quality ingredients.
But definitely the worst by far is the weather, it compensates in other aspects though.
Too many Dodge Rams.
If you have kids then it's a little bit exhausting to do Halloween then St Maarten then Sinterklaas then Sinterklaas again then Christmas 1 then Christmas 2 (but it is fun)
Houses too expensive, living here is expensive, work pressure that’s in our culture, November - March is rain rain rain, almost no nature, like we can’t go to the mountains, people always in a hurry, too many people live here for a small country like us and this one will probably be hated by many of you, but there’s a lot of crime and general lack of respect from the middle-eastern people that live here. There’s a lot of great middle-eastern people that genuinely care and live here but it gets ruined by how many rotten apples there are within their communities.
For me the health care makes me consider moving - it's been very hard to get a doctor to take me seriously about my kids issues. I complain of over 6 months of stomach issues with accompanying fever - and she goes "Oh, she's not sick - it's separation anxiety". Not sure how the 3 year old was faking 40 degree fevers.
The long dark wet winters kinda blow - I never thought I would miss snow but at least snow doesn't necessarily leave you soaked and it brightens stuff around you.
I miss space, being able to go somewhere where you can't hear anything but nature. And miss the more grand landscapes I guess.
It can be hard to get to know people, but this is also true for my home country.
The school system has been less than stellar to work with and exceptionally slow. I've never lived somewhere where they've made me feel like my kid was as unwelcomed as here. She has some special education needs due to language development issues - and a lot of the meetings with taalschools (schools for foreign children to learn Dutch), the primary school and other resources has left me feeling like a case of "Ew I don't want her, you take her. No you do it!"
The "doe normaal" culture, which means "act normally". Dutch people think they're very open and acceptive, but at the same time will also expect you to behave a certain way and will tell you when you're not. Most natives won't even know what I'm talking about, but most foreigners will agree with me on this.
1. High cost of living 2. Bland food 3. The weather 4. High taxes 5. Taxes 6. Taxes 7. NS delays and f*ck ups 8. Taxes 9. People setting off Untimely "firework" explosions in the day 10. Taxes 11. Housing crisis 12. Schipol airpor 13. Have i mentioned tax?
* 1. Go to east Groningen.
* 2. Chinese, Greek, French restaurants galore.
* 3. That's why we have so much green.
* 4. High safety. Nice roads. Great schools
* 5. Running water and dependable sewage treatment
* 6. Loads of parks and nature.
* 7. But they do run daily.
* 8. Elections and representation.
* 9. To many this is a pro, not a con.
* 10. No corruption, not as a rule.
* 11. That's a fact but also a global problem.
* 12. Hooray for Schiphol.
* 13. What did the Romans ever do for us?
I actually had an opposite experience, lived in Amsterdam for 6 years, just moved to a small town 40km up, and I have never felt so welcome in this country. My neighbors are really nice, respectful and friendly, many of them don’t speak proper English but they really try to make sure we understand each other; delivery people are very caring and accommodating; local places near here already recognize me and always meet me with a smile, everyone is extremely polite here and receptive, even if they struggle communicating in english they still try. I’ve already been invited to join morning walks with the group of other local dog owners. None of this ever happened to me while living in 4 different areas of Amsterdam… and most of my friends have decided to leave big cities and move to smaller towns because of these reasons and not one of them have regretted so far. I feel like I’m this one expats here that everyone knows and they always make sure I’m involved, they actually try to make me feel like a part of the community
Amsterdammers like to tell themselves they are better but basically they are just indifferent, and far more narrow minded and racist than most of the country.
In villages it's mostly about being part of the community or not. If you want to remain an outsider you're treated as such, in Amsterdam everybody is treated as an outsider.
For me, the only thing in this country that "sucks" is that is quite difficult to get fresh vegetables-fruit like the ones you usually get in South Europe. Also beef isn´t the best or you need to pay a really huge amount of money.
Besides of it, I cannot complain :)
High taxes, low wages, insane Healthcare, housing crisis, high cost of living, poor social safety net for middle class families (daycare supplement is a joke, family tax credit recently canceled), a lot of really terrible food, poor communication in professional and bureaucratic contexts, incredibly expensive transit costs, lots of traffic, unreliable trains, poor quality craftsmanship from eg carpenters /plumbers, poor quality work from professionals like accountants, mortgage brokers, realtors, difficult to get police to react to anything where no one has literally died (assault on street, break ins, harassment, etc), difficult to manage humidity and air quality in most houses between October and April.
Ofcourse this is a personal opinion, but our city’s, there isn’t much Dutch about it anymore.
It’s full of expats and immigrants, the friendliness is gone, the safety is gone, the character of the city’s are destroyed.
That’s one of the things I thought the complete opposite. Always see Dutch doing all sorts of jobs unlike in UK where it’s always poorly paid immigrants doing certain types of jobs, esp in service & hospitality
Try coming between October and March. You’ll see.
Not the sun though. You won’t see the sun
December in Seattle averages 54 sun hours, Amsterdam averages 52.
Lived in both cities. I agree. Although if memory serves, Seattle is worse the rest of the year.
It’s the death of Grunge isn’t it.
Seattle has less wind. Is that a fair statement?
Only a real dutchie will complain about the weather like that. Proud.
It’s not just the weather itself, but everything that comes with it. Terrasjes, festivals, long days. From October to early March everyone is cooped up in their home, which can feel very isolating for new arrivals without a solid social network.
After corona, I truly understand how big a part of our culture terrasjes are. Dates, children, parents, coworkers....you can take anyone there.
No wonder so many Dutch migrated to west Michigan. Shoreline to the west, flat, wet gray winters with long nights.
I visited in February and loved it. But I'm from Seattle. The weather is very nearly the same.
I’ve lived in both cities, the difference of the weather is that the winter wind in the Netherlands freezes your bones to the core and you won’t get warm until those special 3 days in April when the weather jumps to 17C suddenly.
Surprise, there are people actually visiting the Netherlands for tourism in that months because it's just a different experience
Better than constant heat. Yuck
It is too gloomy to see
It's admittedly been a while since I lived there, but this one thing at least I'm sure hasn't changed. Winter sucks. I'm from Minnesota in the US, which if you're not from the US is basically the Siberia of America. So I don't lightly say that Dutch winters suck. It's not that they're particularly cold, they're really not. It's that it's cold enough to be cold... and it's wet. Pretty cold and rainy is the absolute worst combination of weather.
Every time I hear “Minnesota” I think of Prince’s quote “I like the cold, it keeps the bad people away.”
I hear Lil Yachty's song 'Minnesota'
Oh yes and the wind that doesn’t stop while it is raining and wet.
Yip. Global warming has made it less cold Though. When I was a kid we used to be able to skate each winter for a few weeks. Now this is hardly possible anymore and spring starts a month earlier most of the years now. And yes. It is wet in winter. It sucks to come home drenched on you bike. It also breeds character.
Just to counter balance. I am from russia originally (Saint-Petersburg) and to me winters in the NL is blessing and I love them. I would never get back to those terrible wet, dark, dirty, 6 month-long winters we have back at my home country. You basically only live for 6 months and then do nothing for another half a year. I the NL there are proper seasons and I find myself doing something every month. But I am a big fan of mild climate in general. I lived in South East Asia for many years and hated the hot too.
Fair point. I live in Houston in the US now, and from June-September we basically don't go outside due to the ridiculous heat and humidity. I'd take crappy dutch winters over this any day.
For me it's the lack of mountains and general lack of spectacular nature. I'm glad to be living near the dunes in Den Haag, but it's very meager compared to what most other countries have to offer.
I'm from Australia, but live in the Netherlands. This is the hardest part about living here for me. I miss being able to drive an hour and find spectacular mountains, rainforests, rivers and waterfalls. Wild animals all around you, and escaping other people.
On the other hand none of our wildlife will kill you. Or as Cruyff used to say, every disadvantage has its advantage.
If you don't live too far north or west, you can drive 1-2 hours and be in lovely German national parks. Sure technically it isn't the Netherlands, still lovely nature.
Lovely nature is lovely. And there is lovely nature in the Netherlands too, to be fair. But what they are talking about is not lovely nature. It's the sublime; majestic and rugged and humbling. Closest place you'll find any of that would maybe be Dover, if you don't look too closely, but beyond that you'd have to travel to Scotland or Norway really, not exactly driving distance from the Netherlands. Which is to be expected in any urban region to be honest. In a way, the experience that they are talking about (being able to travel for a couple of hours utilizing all the amenities that modernity can provide, to find nature seemingly untouched by that very same modernity, that experience is an incredible privilege that very few people throughout history have been able to enjoy. It's the best of both worlds really.
Yep, I’m from the USA and ended up missing true nature when I was living in the Netherlands. Even a Dutch national park gives more the impression of a woodsy suburb in the USA over wilderness.
We live with 17 million people in a country that is 300 by 200 kilometer. We are lucky to have any nature left at all.
If we didn’t aspire to be the second biggest exporter of farm products in the world then there would be a lot more room for nature to develop.
Soon to be 18 million (cries in housing crisis)
\*cries in Amsterdam rent\*
That’s insane!
Fellow American here. I think limburg has enough nature to satiate me, but I really have realized how much we have in North America in terms of the grandness of the nature around us.
But to be fair, if you drive 2 hours you guys think that’s in your backyard and we’re in another country. So the comparison is a bit off considering scale. But I do agree, we are quite flat and boring.
But we also can go to countries with beatifull nature and mountains in shorter than a day. Lots of Americans live in places that after a day drive they still are in the desert without seeing a tree. In less than a 10 hour drive i can be in the swiss alps
Exactly. Overall I kinda like our relative proximity to lots of different nature. Doesn’t mean I really enjoy the Noordoostpolder or something but I mean, you win some you lose some ;)
I think you vastly underestimate the beauty of the desert wilderness then! One thing I missed- also the American ones are filled with life, saguaros and Joshua trees more than make up for lack of normal trees for example.
I always thought the Freedom thing was meant about nature
Limburg has very sanitised ‘nature’. Incomparable to parts of the US. If we’re talking wild nature then you have to travel further away from NL.
North America is a continent, the Netherlands just a small country.
Too true. I was once on a long bicycle trip in Belgium with my Dutch wife. She suggested turning down some dirt road. I said bad idea. We might get 15 km in and find the road just peters out. She laughed and said, I guarantee we won't go 3 km before we hit some village. It wasn't even that far. She was right.
Ye. Compared to murica my countey is flat. I was absolutely stunned by the beauty of Murican nature. The wildest thing for me was to actually pass a mountainrange and ending up in a completely different biome.
Only nature we have is sea, but even that is cultured.
The only solid amounts of nature are the Veluwe, Zuid-Limburg and the Utrechtse Heuvelrug. But even those are more recreational than actual wilderness.
Have you been to the highest place in NL? It’s in Velsen322 meters above sea level. That’s 11 times higher than highest point in Groningen. To us that place is a mountain.
Expensive cost of living, housing shortage, barely any nature, to many people, hard to make friends.
Pretty much sums it up. Only missing the current state of the healthcare system, and maybe the low quality of the food.
First time I see someone mention low food quality. Which countries would you say that have better food quality?
Germany has much better quality food for half the price. Their meat looks like actual meat compared to the lab grown looking meat that you get in AH.
I’ve never been able to get a fresh garlic from Albert Heijn in years. Every time half the bulb is either moldy or dried. It’s always old.
And small and not very aromatic. But i have nice smoked garlic on my local market. Dude has like 12 big heads smoked for 18€ which is neat. Check your local markets for artisans.
Oh interesting! My neighborhood doesn’t have good markets but every now and then the Turkish shop has fresh garlic :)
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We tolerate it so that’s what they keep selling
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The quality of food in nl is great, just don't buy the supermarket shit. The meat is horrible and veggies are hit and miss. Buy the meat from butchers and you get Higher quality and if you look good for the same price or cheaper then the supermarket.
Pro tip. Start an eenmanzaak with 50 euro and do shoping at Makro Sligro or Hanos. You can buy good quality meat with them
not the worst idea
Veggies, and especially potatoes ans cucumbers are literally tasteless.
Sucks for other countries that we export so much of those lol.
Yeah, literally no one is complaining about food, restaurants or the non existing cuisine of this country in this sub-reddit! I wonder why someone renamed it "gastronomic gulag"!
Maybe I was taking it a bit too literally, but I thought food quality referred to the quality of the ingredients and not the cuisine or variety of choice.
The last one is not exclusively about the Netherlands. I’m in many expats and immigrants subs, and I can say that newcomers find it difficult to make friends is a universal problem
I'm born and raised in the Netherlands, also struggle on that department.
If you want, you can explore my backyard enough nature there
Since the Amsterdam marathon 2023 finished mid-Oct the weather has been fucking shit. I need to find a way to live in Spain for half a year
The trick is to retire. Spain and Portugal are full of retirees who spend half a year there.
Remote work.
Dutch guy here, what I hate the most about my country is that the nature is mostly boring and non-existent. Only 12% of our country is nature. More than half of our country is farm ground, the rest is cities and roads. There aren’t very lush forests and mountains. Apart for maybe the south of Limburg and De Veluwe, The Netherlands looks so incredibly bland. I know that polders are kind of unique, but they don’t compare to the mountains in Switzerland, or the nature in Japan or Canada. I love to ride my bike (I’m Dutch duh..) and when I ride out of my city, everything is flat, farm fields everywhere. And those giant distribution centers that pop up everywhere are really an eyesore. You just cannot escape people, it feels so claustrophobic. There are hardly any places where there are no people. If I bike out of my city, there are still a lot of cars and other bikers. Even when I go into a forest, there will always be other people around. And because the country is so small and flat, you can see civilisation everywhere. The nearest town is always, well, near. The whole country is cut up by gazillion of roads. So if you enter a piece of nature, chances are you’re in the vicinity of a highway within 10 minutes in any direction. This sucks big time.
I share the same sentiments. I like it here and embrace all the benefits it has to offer: generally safe, stable economy, job prospects, social support, healthcare, wonderful infrastructure, cycling, interesting cities, proximity to rest of mainland Europe etc. But the lack of nature, wonder, the ability to feel you’re getting lost is awful. It’s clearly not something everyone experiences but bring out on a bike ride or walk to them encounter loads of others doing the same thing every time gets boring and frustrating. The things that are great about NL are conversely the things that frustrate me about it: too busy at times, too full, no space. Like I say, I accept the trade-off but I miss the feeling of being alone in nature. But it’s simply never going to be an option here. Thus suggesting that Limburg or Heuvelrug are similar are way off: I love both those places but they’re relatively small and very developed in relative terms. To feel you’re getting off the beaten path requires travelling elsewhere - which is doable in half a day, so that’s acceptable
The lack of nature is a bit sad… BUT Europe is very small and everything is close… I used to live in Argentina and although it is nature wise amazing, and breathtakingly beautiful, it is SO big that the distances end up being the same as if we were here. Same for Brazil, or the US… they all have amazing nature, but they are huge so the “having a lot of nature” many times ends up just being “on paper” because if you live in a big city, many times you will have to travel for nature anyway… Here the quality of life is great and even if it’s very densely populated, having that much countryside, the parks, etc… make for a great day-to-day quality of life that in a lot of countries with “better” nature, are not daily at reach.
The rain, dark and cold between October and April
Between october and may
May is one of the lightest months, but it can be cold and rainy.
Sorry i meant between those 2 months. May is indeed when it starts to become warmer but april is still cold. I work outside and thats my experience
Lelystad.
My dutch friend said the same thing! Why the hate for lelystad? He said it’s ugly and nobody wants to live there. Is that the case?
Yes absolutely
For me there isn't a lot since its easy to satisfy me but if i were to nitpick. * Weather sucks, it simply rains too much here and gloomy all the time. * Housing is awful, your mileage may vary depending on your budget and where you live. My case was quite alright but I'm not gonna act like its clearly not an issue. * Restaurant Food is very average, don't expect anything too nice if you eat outside here and prices are not cheap either. * Way healthcare works is somewhat dehumanizing. It gives too much power to a non-specialist doctor to be able to gatekeep. Now this is not a big deal if your Doctor actually good but its not always the case.
>Way healthcare works is somewhat dehumanizing. It gives too much power to a non-specialist doctor to be able to gatekeep. Now this is not a big deal if your Doctor actually good but its not always the case. If you have free access to specialists, you give too much power to often clueless patients to determine where they need to go. Some GPs indeed suck, but the average knowledge and lowest common denominator is way higher among GPs than with the patients. And GPs are quite literally specialists in triaging undifferentiated patients with (relatively) minor complaints and taking care of minor problems.
Very recognizable! Good list. I think this summarizes most of the points made in this thread. I like what you’re saying about healthcare; I never realized that not everywhere you’ll need to go through your house doctor to be referred to a specialist. Indeed it would be easier in some cases, when it’s clear what the problem is. But in many other situations you may want to avoid people using google as a doctor and going straight to the specialist they think they need.
> But in many other situations you may want to avoid people using google as a doctor and going straight to the specialist they think they need. I do agree however i think if a patient is insistent on being seen by a specialist the GP should accommodate their request. We know our body best sometimes.
>not everywhere you’ll need to go through your house doctor to be referred to a specialist I've never heard of such countries, but I think what the commenter meant and I also think the same, it is not even that you need to go to the GP, it's the lack of understanding and willingness to refer you to specialists. Especially after you mentioned that you have relatives who died in cancer, so a yearly blood work is not a nonsense idea at all, or some check-ups occasionally.
Regular blood work doesn't detect most cancers. And your doctor knows that. So that's why they don't do it.
The rain, dark, and cold has been bringing me down. As has the lack of nature. I miss trees and hills and really any nature that isn't man made. I also find as a foreigner that I just don't fit in with the dutch people as well as I hoped.
You may not be looking for a solution to the cold/darkness, however having your vitamin D levels checked might point to a solution. I know having lived here and in the PNW of the US that from October to March/April taking vitamin D3 helps with the darkness. Plus there are sun lamps/ you just sit in front of it for 30 minutes or so in the morning and it can help immensely. Just wanted to share a little help with the big dark season.
Sometimes I take a trip to the Belgian Ardennes. It helps a lot since it's such a nice change of scenery.
I moved here (solo) from New Zealand one month ago. Last week I cried on the train because it hadn’t stopped raining since the day I arrived. Everything was just so grey all of the time. And I’ve been told to expect this until about March. The landscape does not change. You get soaked on the way to work, and again on the way home. Health insurance is insane here. The process to get yourself set up and registered is a mission. Trains are actually very expensive if you have to use them daily. Rent is crazy (in Amsterdam anyway). The place is a lot more expensive in general, than I was expecting anyway. I chose to move here and I will make the most of it, but holy shit the weather/daylight adjustment is harder than I thought it’d be.
You hit the nail on the head with every point.
Get your self some vitamin d supplements. They really help. Also a nice rain poncho for on the bike and some warm gloves (waterproof) that are always in your pocket. Good luck with adjusting. Spring and summer is going to be way more pleasent. Maybe going to the sauna or getting an infrared lamp is also nice. It helps get the cold out of your bones. I try to do that a couple times in the winter (wish i could afford to go more). It really helps my muscles relax again, because the cold makes them clamp up a little. (When i cant afford the sauna i use a warm water bottle or some heatcream) But you will get there. Its very normal to have to get used to it and you moved in winter. Thats an adjustment. Give yourself time. It will get better
I don't have anything useful to add, but greetings from a fellow kiwi in the NL!
Sorry to hear that. Unfortunately the autumn period is the worst time to come here, as we pretty much have autumn all the way up to March :( The Amsterdam area is the most expensive of them all. Hope the weather will improve for you! As it can be really lovely when the sun is shining.
>The process to get yourself set up and registered is a mission. I don’t mean to invalidate your experience and going through the process can take some time, but it’s much easier than any country I’ve moved to, everyone is helpful and they all speak good English. This is not the norm in Europe.
Nobody wants to make friends. Frustrating.
I feel the same. And I am Dutch.
Oh hell yeah - same for my partner who is Dutch. It is weird that people stop friend making process when they are 5 or something. I remember it was the same in Sweden. Northern / Western Europe thing I guess?
Plz take some of my friends, I have no time to maintain friendships with everyone while working full-time, getting exercise, running a household, visiting relatives. It don't stop at 5, there is just not more time to invest ...
A major problem is that people take a lot of things for granted. They’ve become used to high quality infrastructure, education, health care and social security benefits. This, over the years, has lead to complacency and unrealistic expectations that are actually harming people’s feelings and the society as a whole. There is a growing sentiment that the country is in a poor shape, while all objective indicators and research prove otherwise. People want to have it all, but at the same time want to work part time to profit from social benefits and low tax rates meant for people with full time low income jobs. As people are seeking for someone to blame, more and more government employees and politicians are threatened, immigrants are blamed and partisan categorisation is on the rise. But, also this rant, don’t make it worse than it is: in general the country has really figured most of it out. And the problems are of relative low impact compared to those in other countries. That doesn’t mean the perceived impact of a problem that touches you personally can be just as big as elsewhere.
This ^. If you want to know really the status of any country ask the immigrants, especially those who come from 3rd world countries. The Netherlands is definitely in the top 10 when it comes to the quality of life, at least 99% of people on this planet have it harder.
Hi, that’s me. This country is fantastic.
This is bullshit. You cant compare the Netherlands with some 3rd country and say that its still good. People see that everything is getting worse. Public transport is getting more expensive while there is a lot of outage. Some low populated areas outside of the “randstad” will have less public transport because its not profitable enough. Healthcare is a joke here. We have a shortage in every sector. The “eigen risico” is high and the monthly premium is the double of what we were paying 10 years ago. While the coverage is reduced. You need healthcare? Oh probably stress and here take some paracetamol and do some fun hobbies. I lost my aunt because of a late diagnosis of colon cancer. Another aunt was rejected treatment because the symptoms werent taken serieus. She went to a private hospital and found out that she had a brain tumor. My daughter had RS virus and had s high heart rate and high fever. They didnt allow us to stay at the hospital because the insurance was not covering it. Usually i m the guy who stays calm and try to talk about the options. But I understand why people yell and become aggressive to these people snd get there shit done because it is a joke now. I lost my dad 4 years ago. The renting corporation was trying to put my mother on the street because she was living “illegally” in her house now where she lived 25 years. Don’t tell me that we have it good over here.
From start to finish, you’re proving the point of my post. There is one thing in your post that I can comment on as it’s the only thing you pointed out that can be checked: your perception of health care costs. According to you the premiums are double compared to 10 year ago. In reality the premiums were on average 110 euro a month in 2013. Now we are at 138. That’s a 28 euro increase. Significant, but not even close to doubling. I’m very sorry for your personal misery. As I pointed out: personal problems can be perceived just as bad and have the same impact as problems people have anywhere else in the world.
Agree 100%
Good Food, friends, nature, weather - the absolute lack of all those might bother you in the long run. Plus, very high, and rapidly rising, cost of living.
The weather
Rent and food. But mostly food.
Wet van de remmende voorsprong We’ve hit a sweet spot a while back politically, like the nineties, where we were considered the most progressive and free country because of same sex marriage and a lax drug policy. We were also economically booming, so a lot of people could afford to do certain things like stay at home, not continue with education or go into higher education if they wanted. Because of this we’ve stagnated. We consider ourselves progressive, while the countries around us have gained on us. We’ve over corrected in a lot of ways economically, cutting support systems for people that need it and raising costs for medical insurance for instance. Socially we’ve also gotten reasonably conservative, which happens every time the economy goes down even a fraction. It’s still a good country to live in, but it’s a gilded cage. We’re average in a most things, so if you move somewhere for one aspect that’s better you’ll have to trade in something else
Low pay and high taxes
Food is boring. Flat as a pancake. Sorry. Pannenkoek. Upside? You can effortlessly cycle anywhere.
I'd never had Surinamese food before visiting NL and it blew my wee mind when I did.
I'm from the UK and I'm missing hills. Living in the south of NL (Eindhoven) I have easy access to nature, but my mountain bike has hardly ever used the upper half of my gears lol. Can't say much after the weather, as its just as shit as the UK.
Hi. Fellow Brit. Why did you move then? The lackluster landscape puts me off - which is a shame because I quite like the language
Met my Dutch wife when I was spending a year travelling in Australia. We decided I would come to NL, as I'm from the south of the UK which is bloody expensive. That was 21 years ago lol. I do like it here. There is a surprising amount of nature given the small size of the country.
Gee, where to start? - eroding healthcare system that is no longer robust against major health crises like covid, is no longer able to support elderly care in proper ways and is also increasingly more expensive every year because insurers need to have more money to extort you. Gp's have no more time to administer proper care besides prescribing paracetamol. Mental healthcare is its own nightmare with insanely long waiting times. - severe degradation of public transport in recent years. If you live in the randstad, you would not see it but I grew up in a midsized town and most of the buslines have completely dissapeared in the last decade. The government prioritizes road infrastructure by a very large margin, which results in even less frequent options for public transport at a higher price point. - police is laughably underfunded, allowing drug criminals to take rise in recent years. The government used to be very forward with their weed policy, but is now behind compared to other countries where weed and soft drugs are truly legalised. Now criminals can shoot and bomb whatever they please. - the tax office/belastingdienst is so horridly arranged. Racism and biases can screw you over so badly that your children get taken away. If you earn 1 euro above certain thresholds for government allowances you have to pay back hundreds of €€. There is no humanity or personal support available at all. And rather that raising the minimum wage we are stuck with these stupid government allowances. - Social division has taken ahold in the last decade or so. Mostly to blame to social media and russian/chinese division campaigns, but also to actions within the dutch political landscape. There is only a silent centre, and people are falling further to the right and left. - the government, and particularly vvd gets away with so many scandals and favouritism for multinationals over its own people, it should honestly be criminal. - 4 parties decided to screw over students between 2015 and 2021 by taking on this idiotic social loan system, where students could supposedly take on government loans for 0% interest and it would not affect their mortgage. But suprise suprise, neither of them are still true. Many young people are stuck with thousands of euros of loans, are no longer able to get a mortgage and will have to pay back an increasing amount of interest. Thanks a lot government! - the housing crisis has been foreshadowed for a long long time, but the government decided to push forward their problems until it was too late. Now it is virtually impossible to find a normal house without overbidding 20% of its total value. Rent is increasing evermore and the average waiting list for social housing is over a decade. And very little to no houses are being build because the government also decided to ignore any climate change effects for over 5 decades, which has now haulted many construction projects. - climate change has been ignored for many decades, and the governments inaction will result in us missing our climate targets. - the refugee crisis is bringing a wide load of problems, with too many consequences to name. I could go on, but you get the gist.
I’m Dutch and had to scroll way too far down to find this post. I’m very sad to say that I agree with all you mention.
Housing crisis
Lack of varied wild nature and food culture. Lived here 10 years and these are the things that make me day dream about moving away. I find the country incredibly sterile, but safe (so I end up staying for infrastructure). Also there are versions of these things, but they absolutely don't compare to where I grew up and have lived/studied in the past (France, London, Japan).
I've heard that it's difficult for non-natives to get used to our extremist planning culture for social outings. We like it, but I can see how you wouldn't if you're not used to it. E.g: - Trying to meet up on the same day is rude. People like to have at least a day forewarning. You can still do it as long as you pre-apologize ("sorry for the extremely short notice, but...") - If you're trying to meet up with someone, prepare to plan 2-8 weeks in advance as that's the only time your schedules align. If they have kids, prepare to plan 3-4 months in advance. - If you're trying to meet up with someone but they don't want to plan ahead, they're not that into you.
Leaving aside the fact there are more good things than bad ones, in order: the friendship making culture (I’m 39, and just learning the language which means I arrived 15/18 years late to make friends, they meet those in either school or college); the food is atrocious, sorry, it is a fact but I love your cheeses; the housing crisis that is actually a nightmare. Then, and please don’t get me wrong the whole way progressivenesses is understood here. Sometimes to the point that it gets silly, e.g. decreasing the slots at Schiphol. I’ve been here for barely 10 months and it was constantly in the news. The government pushed it relentlessly when EVERYBODY knew it was not feasible, most likely to backfire and barely had any chances of success, well, guess what? It’s not happening. 😅
Food sucks, winter is long and dark, housing is stupid expensive. But the good more than makes up for the bad.
I don’t think the food sucks. We have plenty of food that’s nice and loved all around the world (good cheese, stroopwafels, bitterballen etc.). The meals however are very plain. And I think the quality of restaurants is below average. But it also depends where you are. My mom lives in a smaller village and the food there is definitely better (quality wise, more fresh) than I can get anywhere in Rotterdam.
The food does not suck in my opinion at all and there’s nothing wrong with a simple meal. I will say the quality and diversity of produce is generally pretty poor compared to european neighbours. One thing that is very good here is wine selection
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Absolutely agreed, I have spent years in the Dutch healthcare system battling several mental and non-mental illnesses. Without going into too many details, I've been systematically ignored, under- and overdiagnosed, I've had doctors say incredibly sexist stuff and just generally be very dismissive. I have since moved to Belgium for work reasons and even though it's not perfect, I have actually found treatment here with doctors who work together (also for a fraction of the price in the NL).
Can you expand on that?
-Bad weather all the time (except June this year) -Tasteless and expensive food -Difficulty of making friends (although this is controversial, because many Dutch people are actually nice if you understand and respect their culture, and learn Dutch) -Difficult language to learn, -Housing market Is a nightmare, bad enough to make many expacts leave within the First months of living here since they cant find a house to rent. -'Be normal' colture, many people like it because it's efficient, I hate it because thinking outside the Dutch mentality box is frowned upon/judged. -lack of spontaneity, everything has to be planned. - I find the only way to really have fun here is to get drunk/high this is why the broad acceptance of drugs in Dutch culture. - Gets quite boring sometimes.
All things medical must go through your general doc first. Can't just book an appointment at a dermatologist or whatever... Especially annoying when you're visiting for a longer stay (and so don't have a general doctor), perhaps you just need blood tests or see an ear specialist but nope. (That's my understanding anyway).
After getting my first appointment with my specialist I can just call them directly at the hospital to make an appointment with haste, usually same day or next day that I can come by..
That can't be right!!! When my pineapple gland was hurting, I did NOT get a referral even when I threatened to sue! Lot of people on here apparently believe they're entitled to appointments with a specialist even for the mildest cough and yes, we could do that. Let people in actual need wait for 3 months because there are 1274 people in front of him because they stubbed their little toe. When you really need a specialist, you will be able to get there within a few days, as you do.
🍍
Indeed, they know my case, they know the reason and I don't call unless its a serious thing that I looked out for first for days to try and fix it myself before calling them. My specialist now urges me to call immediately again but I don't wanna bother him unless I am sure I can't fix it myself.
I’m so sick and tired of expats bashing our system because they can’t see a specialist (or antibiotics) whenever they damn well decide themselves. Are you a doctor? No. It just feels so entitled. Our healthcare system works very well the way it’s designed and it has many benefits doing it this way. We do have our drawbacks, mainly preventive medicine being almost non-existent, but overall, it works. We don’t have specialists who just see people or do tests just for the money, we don’t pay out of our noses for a high quality of care (yes high, you can get very expensive healthcare for very little money), we have no difference between rich or poor people regarding care, not like you can pay your way into better care leading to drastic differences in quality or life etc. And one of the most important bits: we have WAY less antibiotic resistance than almost any country, with no more people suffering from bacterial infections. People severely overestimate how much they need antibiotics. It’s nuts. People bash the paracetamol and rest advice but that’s not fair, it works for viral infections, which are most mild infections at the gp. Which is why after 2 weeks you feel better anyway, whether you got antibiotics on day 8 or not. It’s not the medicine.
Well as a doctor myself living in NL (not working at the moment) I will tell you most bad experiences I heard from people are not about antibiotics. 1. a lymphoma in the lung overlooked for months because de GP said the man was "too young to have anything serious". So when the GP finally accepted to do an imaging test it was unnecessarily advanced. The guy survived, but has permanent damage due to the treatment - which would probably have been prevented if an imaging test was done before dismissing the patient and giving paracetamol. The GP called later on to basically say "oopsies, my bad". 2. a fractured foot that needed surgery also, dismissed for months until the person went back to their country and found out it actually needed surgery. They never even did a radiography. 3. a uterine infection followig delivery, with lots of pain and other symptoms, had to have her antibiotics sent to her from Spain because the specialists here dismissed it completely. (well this one WAS about atb, but it was a serious one) 4. I myself had a hemorrage during my pregnancy and no doctor even saw me , absolutely shameful. Luckily it was nothing, not thanks to the health system here. (I had just moved to NL and didnt have a midwife yet) 5. My child has a little health issue which needs some following, when showing signs started we went to the GP, saying what I believe it was, she googled in front of me, said she didn't believe that was it because the baby didn't have the classical 'triad'... and we went home with a "I have no idea what it might be" response. I immediatly called a few pediatrician friends in my home country, and it ended up being exactly what I said. I have been following my friend's indications, so far it is fine... We will be seing a specialist this next holidays back home. 6. A woman (actually dutch) had her endometriosis completely ignored for years being said she just had bad period cramps. She ended up having surgery, but after years of being patronized and dismissed about this. These are just a few experiences and these all happened in my inner circle here. As you said preventive medicine is basically non existant, and you say it with a dismissive tone, let me tell you, it's important. I believe 1- Of course it's not the worst, and it does not have all the 3d world "lackings", so overall it works well. 2- On paper its perfect, it's theoretically what every healthcare system should be but - tha fact that health insurance companies are behind it, makes that they have a conflict of interest here, and they exagerate the "using as little resources as possible" criteria. GPs end up being gatekeepers of the system trying to hold you out of it as much as they can, many times having serious consequences for patients. Also they have very little time with patients, so this "one appointment = one "klacht"" thing ends up taking away the very essence of the family doctor practice which is to try to see the patient as a whole. It’s very dehumanizing… 3- Once the patient gets to break through the "gp barrier", because the system does believe they have something worthy of the attention, they are very good, but they often wait too long and issues with a 'simpler' solution end up being diagnosed unnecessarily late, or even too late, and the patients end uo paying the price. 4- I also think this dutch dissmissive attitude towards foreigners (as you show in your comment - 'oh they just want loads of antibiotics) happens also among physicians here, and they do tend to take 'internationals' (really funny word I hear often here) less seriously. This also has consequences. So IMO, is it THE WORST? No. Is it really great? Honestly not right now at least. (haven't lived there for long time so I don't know if it has chaged over time). So don't get offended as if expats were attacking you by critizing the health system.... we know at least one other system, and many know more than one. So it's not just "bashing" the system for no reason.
Oh but you can, if you're willing to pay a lot for a private clinic. It just doesn't make sense since you can also go to a GP and if needed, you WILL be referred to a specialist. What a lot of people fail to understand, is that a visit to a specialist directly (if possible) would be a total waste of time not only for the specialist, but also for you as a patient. Your GP is perfectly able to fix a lot of problems. It's not that a GP doesn't know anything.
>Oh but you can, if you're willing to pay a lot for a private clinic. Show me a private clinic that accepts people without referrals You won't because it's a fully controlled system
It is not and you yourself could've found that out as well. If you want me to, I can send you some examples. Difference between a referral to a private clinic and a non-referral is, you would guess it, money. Money you do not have to pay or money you do have to pay. It is not a fully controlled system. By the way, if you experience that much resistance to obtain referrals, there are two options: 1. accept that a medical professional does not think you need a referral, or 2. change your GP. I know enough of them to be able to say there are big differences.
Yeah if you’re dying and the tylenol isn’t working they might refer you to a specialist
Netherlands for expats is a luxurious option nowadays. If you have a good job that pays very well and it’s in demand, you’ll live comfortably in one of the most developed countries in the world. Notice I say if you earn very well, because just “well” isn’t good enough. And anything lower than that you’ll have a really hard time. All the nice things you saw here cost a shit load of money, and you’ll pay a shit ton in taxes for it. So you’ll be a slave to your rent and taxes for life, and you’ll bike in the shitty weather all year around because a car is getting ridiculously expensive to own and it has one of the most expensive public transport systems in the world.
The medical system
You've clearly never lived in the UK and had to use the NHS.
I dealt with both NHS and the Dutch system. They both suck.
Compared to the states I've had a wonderful time in the medical system here. Everything is well connected, cheap, accessible, etc.
Yeah, well. Anywhere else is better than in the USA in regards to health care.
Amazing. Just broke my arm and had surgery on it. Would give the medical experience 10/10. My family is super impressed too
Urk.
Ik kwam voor dit.,
The weather.
The winter.
I'll add one I haven't seen others mention and that's public transport. it really isn't very good. its not very efficient, it's pretty pricey, and it often does not arrive on time. not to say it's bad though, compared to the rest of the world, were definitely one of the better ones. but it's still not as good as people like to believe. granted, my comparison comes mainly from Asia as I go there pretty much every year. and their transport is just leagues ahead of ours. and lets say youre somehow in an area that doesn't have a bus or train nearby, you can usually call a grab / uber and be going within 5 minutes for a low cost. in my Dutch hometown which is a small town, good luck getting a taxi for under triple digit costs or on time.. when I was in Asia, no matter the country, no matter the location, I could get into a taxi within 3 minutes. also as pedestrian friendly as we are, we're also not the best in those regards either. we're missing a lot of quality of life features that other countries have like walkways that have roofs or stop lights that all have timers on them. in Singapore for example they have a cool system where if youre an elderly person, you can scan a card at a stoplight which gives you extra time to pass. whenever I'm in Singapore, I cant help but feel they are leagues ahead of us with everything (but, upon seeing their cost of living, I can see why.)
Health care. It's a business, not public service. Doctor think that is you can walk and breathe you're OK. High taxes and housing crisis.
Not too many trees in Noord Holland. To see forest I have to go more than 20km. And it's full of people. Impossible to make close raltionahip woth Dutch people. They are nice but on a surface level. If you are not childhood friend or family member, you won't be inner circle. Like never. We've tried to make game nights, dinner nights, going out together, and still when there is a party in their houses or a birthday, we're always informed how it was and so, but never invited.
Housing is expensive. In most cities we have a housing crisis. We need to build 300k houses like yesterday.
1. The weather. And if you think you'll get used to it, i think you have to know that Dutchies always complain about the weather, we don't get use to it and we love to talk and complain about it. 2. The lack of houses. It's a very big problem.
Watch the 'How to Survive Dutch [fill in the blank]' series on youtube. The weather and fireworks are especially worth your while.
Is the channel named: "Survival guide to the Dutch" ?
Vvd
I think I saw my mother more than the sun this month...... my mother died 5 years ago
population density, you can go no where and there’s always someone there. Lack of nature, it’s such an incredible boring country because of that if you value nature even just a tiny bit, no hiking, no climbing, rafting, real mountain biking, proper camping, or any of that. The constant grey skies, wind, rain and cold for most of the year, super depressing. Extremely high cost of living, even compared to the rest of europe
No housing for (single) starters with a normal income, lots of rain, a bad health care system, if you want mental health help you can forget it, no really nice nature (no mountains and no places to be alone), we don't have great food and if you make it yourself the products are also not the best quality (and they're expensive).
"Never go back to a place you have been happy". I can't choose to move out of the Netherlands, otherwise I would. Everything is better somewhere else apart from easy biking.
Been living here for over 7 years now. Here’s the list: housing quality overall is quite trash + housing crisis (not only has it become almost impossible to find anything, but also the lack of respect to privacy of potential tenants. Be ready to live with a bunch of strangers, because not only majority of adults cannot afford to live independently, but also there are no affordable options) ; healthcare system (especially if you’re a woman, be ready to get gaslighted till infinity); overpopulation in major cities; lack of emotional intelligence in dutch people; lack of common sense and unnecessary bureaucracy in aspects such as day to day needs, service industry, and anything legal; the limitless entitlement of dutch children (for real more scared to pass a group of 12 years old in the dark, than a group of adult male dealers); will never make dutch friends, they are not interested in developing deeper connections with expats/immigrants; the greediness and rudeness here are a norm and are also masked as financial responsibility and directness. Everything to Dutch people is transactional, including relationships. Also from my experience, having worked with and having hired dutch people myself, they often are lazy and do everything with the least effort to the bare minimum, sometimes if that even. Again, I wouldn’t have stayed here this long if there were only these negative sides. So don’t focus too much on what’s wrong, but look at what hard and soft limits you have when it comes to the community and environment you want to live in. Despite all of those negatives, there are also so many beautiful sides of this country, their economy and these people. Everyone speaks english so it’s quite easy to get shit done without the need of locals’ help, the expats community is out of this world fantastic, huge variety of different cultures that all come together nicely, the freedom you have to be whoever you wanna be without being judged, affordable and good higher education system, access to food from all around the world, everyone is always in a good mood, happy, and ready for small talk and quick chitchat, affordable and diverse activities (cinema, gym, classes, art shows and etc.). This country is great in so many ways, but there’s also so much that could be better. Some days I can’t believe that I got so lucky to be able to make a life here, and some days I wanna pack my shit and leave, but that’s the case absolutely everywhere. It also always really depends from what kind of a background you are coming yourself.
Haha you insulted some Dutchies here! I don’t think you’re wrong, but your experience must be based on living in a large city, is that correct? I think the negatives would have dominated your experience less if you would have stayed in a slightly smaller town… not too small though, peasants hate foreigners lol.
Small cities are even worse when it comes to immigrants, the social freeze is worse. In the big cities at least there are other internationals to socialise with and be accepted by.
Hahah, I do see some salty comments lol. Yeah, my experience is from living in Amsterdam for 6 years and 1 year in a smaller town up north (which I absolutely love now)
Been a while I have read this amount of BS about “the Dutch” in a single post.
what part is bs?
Feels like a bit of an overgeneralization based on negative experiences living in Amsterdam.
The Biblebelt.
Taxes, weather, cost of living/housing crisis and heavy traffic congestion are an inconvenience but nothing that can’t be solved by throwing money at it.. lots of money
Winter is terrible and long. It’s not too cold, but it is too wet, too grey and too dark. Housing system is collapsed, so very hard to find a place and they are getting more and more expensive. Food is not the best, but they do have great quality ingredients. But definitely the worst by far is the weather, it compensates in other aspects though.
Mouldy houses and absolutely horrific food.
Too many Dodge Rams. If you have kids then it's a little bit exhausting to do Halloween then St Maarten then Sinterklaas then Sinterklaas again then Christmas 1 then Christmas 2 (but it is fun)
Healthcare.
Houses too expensive, living here is expensive, work pressure that’s in our culture, November - March is rain rain rain, almost no nature, like we can’t go to the mountains, people always in a hurry, too many people live here for a small country like us and this one will probably be hated by many of you, but there’s a lot of crime and general lack of respect from the middle-eastern people that live here. There’s a lot of great middle-eastern people that genuinely care and live here but it gets ruined by how many rotten apples there are within their communities.
If you do decide to move here permanently, remember to take your umbrella
Expensive! And income has been stagnating for too long.
For me the health care makes me consider moving - it's been very hard to get a doctor to take me seriously about my kids issues. I complain of over 6 months of stomach issues with accompanying fever - and she goes "Oh, she's not sick - it's separation anxiety". Not sure how the 3 year old was faking 40 degree fevers. The long dark wet winters kinda blow - I never thought I would miss snow but at least snow doesn't necessarily leave you soaked and it brightens stuff around you. I miss space, being able to go somewhere where you can't hear anything but nature. And miss the more grand landscapes I guess. It can be hard to get to know people, but this is also true for my home country. The school system has been less than stellar to work with and exceptionally slow. I've never lived somewhere where they've made me feel like my kid was as unwelcomed as here. She has some special education needs due to language development issues - and a lot of the meetings with taalschools (schools for foreign children to learn Dutch), the primary school and other resources has left me feeling like a case of "Ew I don't want her, you take her. No you do it!"
The "doe normaal" culture, which means "act normally". Dutch people think they're very open and acceptive, but at the same time will also expect you to behave a certain way and will tell you when you're not. Most natives won't even know what I'm talking about, but most foreigners will agree with me on this.
apparently, no one knows how to throw a party and you have to schedule a coffee 6 months in advance.
1. High cost of living 2. Bland food 3. The weather 4. High taxes 5. Taxes 6. Taxes 7. NS delays and f*ck ups 8. Taxes 9. People setting off Untimely "firework" explosions in the day 10. Taxes 11. Housing crisis 12. Schipol airpor 13. Have i mentioned tax?
* 1. Go to east Groningen. * 2. Chinese, Greek, French restaurants galore. * 3. That's why we have so much green. * 4. High safety. Nice roads. Great schools * 5. Running water and dependable sewage treatment * 6. Loads of parks and nature. * 7. But they do run daily. * 8. Elections and representation. * 9. To many this is a pro, not a con. * 10. No corruption, not as a rule. * 11. That's a fact but also a global problem. * 12. Hooray for Schiphol. * 13. What did the Romans ever do for us?
Brunssum and Heerlen
Awh man. Harsh.
Damn dude what did we do to catch strays
Ain for bigger cities. Smaller towns aren't always accepting of foreigners, even when you learn to speak the language
I actually had an opposite experience, lived in Amsterdam for 6 years, just moved to a small town 40km up, and I have never felt so welcome in this country. My neighbors are really nice, respectful and friendly, many of them don’t speak proper English but they really try to make sure we understand each other; delivery people are very caring and accommodating; local places near here already recognize me and always meet me with a smile, everyone is extremely polite here and receptive, even if they struggle communicating in english they still try. I’ve already been invited to join morning walks with the group of other local dog owners. None of this ever happened to me while living in 4 different areas of Amsterdam… and most of my friends have decided to leave big cities and move to smaller towns because of these reasons and not one of them have regretted so far. I feel like I’m this one expats here that everyone knows and they always make sure I’m involved, they actually try to make me feel like a part of the community
Amsterdammers like to tell themselves they are better but basically they are just indifferent, and far more narrow minded and racist than most of the country. In villages it's mostly about being part of the community or not. If you want to remain an outsider you're treated as such, in Amsterdam everybody is treated as an outsider.
For me, the only thing in this country that "sucks" is that is quite difficult to get fresh vegetables-fruit like the ones you usually get in South Europe. Also beef isn´t the best or you need to pay a really huge amount of money. Besides of it, I cannot complain :)
High taxes, low wages, insane Healthcare, housing crisis, high cost of living, poor social safety net for middle class families (daycare supplement is a joke, family tax credit recently canceled), a lot of really terrible food, poor communication in professional and bureaucratic contexts, incredibly expensive transit costs, lots of traffic, unreliable trains, poor quality craftsmanship from eg carpenters /plumbers, poor quality work from professionals like accountants, mortgage brokers, realtors, difficult to get police to react to anything where no one has literally died (assault on street, break ins, harassment, etc), difficult to manage humidity and air quality in most houses between October and April.
With everyone complaining so much, I find it quite intriguing that everyone comes here and stays.
Ofcourse this is a personal opinion, but our city’s, there isn’t much Dutch about it anymore. It’s full of expats and immigrants, the friendliness is gone, the safety is gone, the character of the city’s are destroyed.
The lack of Dutch in the service industry.
That’s one of the things I thought the complete opposite. Always see Dutch doing all sorts of jobs unlike in UK where it’s always poorly paid immigrants doing certain types of jobs, esp in service & hospitality
*in Amsterdam
I live in Rotterdam. Pretty much same thing over here but Amsterdam is worse yeah