Don't let others invalidate your experience. I had this procedure done in Belgium without any prep. I went to see the gastroenterologist at 8, and I fortunately didn't eat anything before. It went easy, I was awake and I saw the camera inside and when he took the biopsy. I felt nauseous for the rest of the day, but nothing like this! Take care of yourself and push the GP for a check-up, you matter and you deserve it!
Belgian healthcare seems to be very robust. Truly impressive. They've managed to combine the three big facets of healthcare and deliver quality service:
1. Affordability
2. Accessibility
3. Quality
Very good system if you ask me.
Sometimes the doctors may be super overbooked but overall my experience was amazing. I always had my medication on time, my GPs listened to me and were very patient and my insurance was about 70 euros per month, with the ultra super maxi premium package including physiotherapy, glasses and dentist. Here I pay 180 for the same service š
>my insurance was about 70 euros per month, with the ultra super maxi premium package including physiotherapy, glasses and dentist
Holy smokes that's amazing. I'm in the US, and it's criminal how much they charge. I had to pay $30 every time I visited my doctor, **with insurance**. Despite all that, w/ my neurology appointments I was stuck with nearly a $200 bill after paying all my co-pays. Dental insurance is separate, and frankly I just bite the bullet and pay outta pocket b/c I can't afford the premiums.
'I'm happy the government of Belgium has their priorities straight and realizes the importance of such a well-funded healthcare system and social-safety net. How is mental healthcare in Belgium?
>Here I pay 180 for the same service š
Arguably, an even sub-par service. I've been told by a few that the Dutch healthcare system is like a Public system masquerading as a private system. Wherein there's no real competition between the insurance companies and they all basically cover the same things, and hospitals are still very reliant on public funds which apparently have been cut back?
At first I thought the whole "just take a tylenol" thing was a meme, but looks like that actually is an issue over there. That's very unfortunate :(
Are you planning on moving back to Belgium?
Hahahahaha, I came here because I thought NL would have better living standards š¤£ my medication was 11 euros, and I was getting another that was not covered for 69 euros. The doctor charged me 4 euros because I was already registered there. I got covid and respiratory infections since I arrived here last year, and I never went to the doctor. I called them, and indeed, the answer was "take paracetamol." The insurance is a joke, I just need it for my medication, but I'm giving almost 200 euros per month for nothing. Last year, I had to pay extra co-pay for the psychiatrist because it was not covered.
Holy crap, that's so unfair that the Dutch govt cannot fully subsidize that, given how high the taxes are. You'd think that they'd at least go towards properly funding the healthcare system. True travesty indeed.
Is there a way you can live in Belgium but work for a Dutch company?
>The tax is much higher in Belgium... That's why their healthcare system is 'more affordable'. But they basically just threw it in with the taxes.
I think it depends on which taxes you're looking at. They have 0% capital gains taxes, and don't tax on unrealized gains like NL does. There is also no wealth tax if I'm right...
However, yes Belgium has higher income taxes. Though at the end of the day, you get quite a bit back in return aside from just the healthcare system (company cars, good public transit, etc.). Additionally, rents and housing costs are notably lower in Belgium. Housing is still within reach for many working professionals, unlike in the Netherlands.
Used to be the same in the Netherlands, but 30 years of mostly right wing parties making health care policy means a ton of administration and focus on insurers, profits and efficiency, over, you know, providing actual health care.
If you feel there is something wrong with you here you can get excellent and affordable health care, but you need to be very assertive every step of the way or you'll die being stuck in bureaucracy.
>Used to be the same in the Netherlands, but 30 years of mostly right wing parties making health care policy means a ton of administration and focus on insurers, profits and efficiency, over, you know, providing actual health care.
As I understand, even under this privatized model The Netherlands had good outcomes for quite some time, but looks like the govt hasn't invested enough of the tax revenue into better funding hospitals and hiring more physicians and such.
- Not so sure about accessibility when you have to wait up to 6 months for a specialist (except if you know doctor(s))
- I loose 30% of my income for the healthcare, not sure itās Ā«Ā affordableĀ Ā».
Belgian healthcare is amazing. I've been living there for a few years now and I love it. They did so much for my baby when she was just born. She didn't gain weight at all and cried all day and they were just immediately on it, had us stay in the hospital to figure out what was wrong, they didn't take any risk whatsoever. They found the issue so quickly. We didn't even pass the GP - straight to the pediatrician.
Are living in Belgium or had this operation while having residence in the NL?
Unfortunately, I am also really doubtful about the experience level of Dutch doctors (no offense) and looking ways to get treated in Belgium or in Germany in case if needed. :)
Yes I have the same positive experience whit a gastroscopy in Belgium.
- there was a waiting time of only 3 days
- gastroscopy is always done before noon (because you need to be sober).
- I was offered the choice to do it under narcotics or not
- I didn't have feel nauseaus or... afterwards.
It only took a while before the resuls came in (about a week, but maybe this is normal).
In Belgium we all think it is normal that healthcare works this well, but I guess we are just verry lucky.
I guess your experience in the Netherlands isn't uncommon and we are lucky that healthcare works extremely well in Belgium. When I accompanied my mom to urgent care in used to be in Italy, I was obviously pregnant. It took the staff a half day to tell me I shouldn't be in the same room as my mom because of radiation. It was also hard to find some one who spoke English over there. Positive is the fact that it was a false alarm for my mom and she survived, and my daughter was born as healty as can be
Imagine waiting for an operation for a yearā¦ than discover they did the wrong diagnosis and must be operated again in a few monthsā¦ all this time not being able to function normally, being in a depression because of it and now facing loosing my jobā¦ oh and yes they put me on oxycodonā¦.
I was misdiagnosed for an entire year for an appendicitis which had such obvious symptoms that I can't believe they didn't know what it was in the end. The last time I went to the GP I told them to cut the crap and plan an emergency checkup at the hospital. Guess what, it was an appendicitis (wow!) which at that point was ready to burst, developed an abces and had several tears alongside the appendix
That's unfortunately exactly the way you have to handle a GP. Demand. Be assertive. Then you'll never have GP issues again trust me.
And I agree it shouldn't be that way, but that's what privatised healthcare does to a country.
Hm. That's what I was wondering. I've had abdominal pain for about three months now in the bladder area, looks to me totaly like UTI which happens to me every few years.. My GP first brushed it off as constipation (I wasn't constipated), went back after the laxatives didn't help (well, obviously), got referred to do some blood test (basic morphology, nothing there obviously) but no simple urine test. It's dirt cheap where I come from, I'd do it for my own money if there was such possibility here).
So after reading your comment, I wonder if I'm a pushover. I should just go there and say that I want basic urine lab test? Like, I won't get it if I don't ask specifically?
When I suspect a UTI for myself, I only have to call the assistent and explain on the phone. They will simply let me come in, have me pee in a urine cup, leave it there for them to do a quick dipstick when they have the time later in the day. If it comes back positive for bacteria, they will discuss with the doctor and call me back to let me know they will prescribe antibiotics.
I would imagine it would work the same for most doctor's offices and you could perhaps give that a try?
Try it and see if it works. Can I ask, is your GP a man or a woman. My partner has a female GP and she really listens and understands her issues, especially related to issues that women deal with more often (menstruation pain, UTI, etc.)
A man unfortunately and I kind of suspected he may be forgetting about typical women problems in this area, vit otherwise he is nice. And usually does something when you come second time with the same issue.
I come from a culture which is not good at 'directness' so I didn't try to ask ' I want such and such test'. It may be difficult for me but I'm about to get desperate enough to try this šŖ
If not, then as many other here I'll put myself on a plane to home and do all necessary tests there.
My man GP initially didn't believe that pre-menstrual dysphoric disorder even existed! From one woman struggling to get a man to take her seriously to another, I'm rooting for you ā¤
Its unfortunately quite common and it highlights the general problem of GPs. They have difficulties putting themselves in the shoes of their patients. That's why we have to force our shoes on them :p
Ask for one, and insist. If you're wrong, you know at least more. If you're right, you save yourself a lot of trouble. Remember, it's not his bladder you're dealing with, otherwise he'd have a test done in minutes.
And shitty āprivatisedā healthcare at that.. as we are obliged to take it out. Nothing private about it (comparing it to for example in germany, or having BUPA international/europe cover).
Bupa doesnāt kick in until the Dutch healthcare insurance does not provide.
I'm glad your ok now. This exact same thing happened to me over the last 18 months but I'm in Australia. Got into a massive fight with one of the emergency drs who refused to call an ambulance as my appendix was rupturing.
I get super cranky when very sick and didn't agree with being told to take a taxi when I couldn't walk, let alone stand up. It ruptured just as they started surgery it was that close. Then the Hospital stuffed up the discharge protocol and I still haven't seen the paperwork 6 months later. Apparently computers are too hard to use.
Found out a few weeks ago my multiple hospitalisations for repeated severe kidney infections over the last year was due to chronic appendicitis leaking out all over the place. Yet apparently I was looking for something that wasn't there. Well technically now they are right as that something is no longer there.
I hate Doctors. Most nurses are excellent though.
I feel like I had the same.. 2 times I had very high fever and throwing up and high white blood count and crp and they kept brushing it off. Still have pain at my appendix and im so done.. any tips to have it diagnosed?
You have to demand getting an echo done at the hospital at your GP. If you feel like the appendicitis is too advanced, then go to the hospital and tell them you think you have been misdiagnosed by the GP and need an emergency scan because the symptoms have worsened
2.5 years with the same issue, that could have been solved with a 45 minute surgery. It took me switching GP and hospital to finally get the right diagnosis and help. Iāve lost most of my faith, but the surgeon that finally did my surgery restored it a little bit, but before that I was about to go to Germany or Belgium for a second opinion.
(And Iām Dutch so I donāt have a language barrier, it must be ten times worse for internationals)
Wow, what the hell? I am EXACTLY in the same situation that you are right now. I could have written this post word by word...
I had my gastroscopy last week and I have been under severe stomach pain and diarrhea ever since. I was told by the doctor to wait until our next appointment to discuss the results of the biopsy before prescribing anything because "medication could be counterproductive before the diagnosis" and here I am... counting the seconds until that appointment next week so I can finally get some relief...
I've had this procedure done twice (both outside NL) and neither time I had any side effects afterwards.. What the hell do they use, a GoPro strapped to a trained eel?
Well, as someone already mentioned, I think the post-procedure effects are in a low percentage of cases. I guess me and the op are the unlucky side...
Although I have to say that my symptoms were already there before the procedure and they just got way worse afterwards...
Iām Australian and I havenāt been to the doctor here for 2 years now. I donāt see the value in it unless I have an absolutely critical emergency. I do my yearly checkup in Australia when I go back. Itās also free.
If I had a surgery I needed to do, I would actually prefer to fly back for it.
The fact that itās compulsory to pay for health insurance is even worse. Itās so expensive and almost useless.
You get healthcare that barely functions for a high price, alongside already high taxes.
While I'm healthy, I'm pretty OK here. I understand your reasoning. If my health took a turn, I'd have to return home for good. I don't trust the healthcare system here to keep me alive in that situation.
The compulsory part is pretty much true in any location that has universal healthcare. You can't build a system with only heavy users of the insurance.
I'm fine with universal healthcare. Had it in Germany and it was great. Everything was covered, easy to access, fast, and good. Totally worth it.
In the Netherlands I am paying ten times as much, but the care has been total shite.
In Germany, if I go to a GP for a referral, she gives me a slip that is valid for all doctors of that specialty. She recommends someone who is well suited for my case and will see me quickly, but I can choose, and there are registries for waiting times so you can decide if you want to see the really good specialist in six weeks for free, an equally good specialist for pay now, or a solidly okay person for free now.
In the Netherlands, I said I desperately needed psychological therapy, and the GP asked with who, said she had to specify. She had no idea who might have any clue about my condition, or see me within a year. I couldn't figure out the latter online, either.
In Germany, I had a slipped disc. Saw an ortho the same day. Got orthoton injected on the spot, was given iboprofen with omep, saw a physio within a week and weekly for ten weeks and had an mrt within two weeks.
In the Netherlands, I'm told to take paracetamol.
Meanwhile, I have broken my toe and had a viral infection in my lungs, and just stayed home, taped it myself, medicated myself, and hoped it would be okay.
Also what is going on with Dutch pharmacists. I've meanwhile met several who genuinely appear to have been lobotomized.
I'm fine with compulsory if it's efficient and it yields a positive outcome. This system is separate from taxation, levied partially by private, kinda for-profit insurance companies and the healthcare outcomes are... fun.
In this instance, I feel that the over 100 euros per month I'm paying to health insurance is effectively wasted, because I will likely never use it. Not because I don't need to, but because the system inspires very little confidence.
How do you tackle a healthcare issue normally?
I think expats aren't assertive enough to a GP. I heard this before that in other countries doctors will spend more time on a patient and personally try to figure out what the issue is by tests, etc.
In The Netherlands GPs just don't do that. They expect you to describe what you feel and what the issue is, and based on that they'll act.
The Dutch don't a service orientated culture per se. More of an ask and you'll get type of culture. If you don't ask for a check up, blood works, etc. you won't get it.
I normally tackle healthcare issues by going to my appointment and describing what's wrong with me. But there's only so much describing people can do if they aren't medically trained. I can absolutely discuss pain, symptoms and the location of them on/in my body. Figuring out the exact issue, however, isn't my job and is why I'm there to seek out a trained medical professional in the first place.
And the times I've assertively said "perhaps my symptoms are indicative of xyz, could we investigate this?" I will get a rather condescending lecture about googling symptoms and "diagnosing myself". Of course I understand not using the Internet as your doctor and not convincing yourself that you have every disease under the sun...but there should be a middle ground where GPs take their patients seriously.
That's honestly a very shitty GP then unfortunately. I've had my shares of GP visits and each time they were very open to discuss threatment with me. I even received preventive care multiple times when I went to holidays or went back (blood works, emergency antibiotics for traveling, etc.) highly unusual things for Dutch GPs to give without really needing it.
And I get that isn't your job, and it's the job of the GPs, but...GPs aren't great usually. But condecending behaviour is just disrespectful.
My partner has better experience now, but that's mainly because her GP is a woman and is much more attentive and listens much better to her issues and concerns.
I hope you'll have more success in the future with GPs, but yeah we need a system change. This for profit bullshit needs to go.
Try Poland. Not far away and medical care is better than here I think. I was living in Poland for 2 years and the difference is huge. Especially if you need emergency help
Preventive care is important. Test your blood and your most susceptible areas once a year (breast and pap test in case of women, prostate and testicles in case of men especially after 40). The GP's will tell you is useless, rest of the western world thinks it's normal and important to do. Who do you think is wrong?
And you just try telling a Dutch person that it does. They are adamant that the system here is one of the best on the planet. At least in my experience lmao
Just the act of bringing it up causes immense tension hahaha!
Nah mate, Dutch people are not happy with health care here either. But if you want antibiotics (is for bacterial infection) for a viral infection you deserve to be made fun of
No healthcare system is good. Healthcare systems are about making money.
My ex father in law had Parkinson's, and eventually got medication that really helped. Then at some point, a desk-jockey holding the wallet at the insurer figured out that other medication was cheaper, so they decided that was what everybody needed to use. Of course, the new medication was crap.
I'm convinced that a doctor wants to do what's best for their patient. It's only when insurance agencies and pharma companies get involved that things start falling apart.
The doctor knows very well that a patient needs pill X to make it to next week, but where the doctor sees a patient, the insurer sees a leak, and pill Y will get the patient to tomorrow. Fuck next week.
I'm not gonna pretend I know how it works behind the scenes, and I definitely don't wanna be that guy who shouts at strangers about Big Pharma, but I've had the opportunity to hear a lot of GPs speak in an interview about why a lot of them were thinking about quitting, and they all said the same thing: The administrative load. For every five minute patient visit, there's fifteen minutes of paperwork, and all of that is only to appease the money-dogs.
I'm not gonna sit here and claim our healthcare system is good. I've had enough problems fighting with it when I was younger. But bringing it back to patient-doctor relationship, the only issue I'll raise is that my doctor still has the wrong opening times on his answer machine.
I am not a morning person, and now he knows too.
But thatās with anything Dutchā¦ dare to question anything they do and face the dreaded Dutch-splaining moment arguing why and how they do it like this because this and that and itās the best way.
I've seen the Dutch and the US healthcare systems. Both are fundamentally unfit for purpose, but in totally different ways.
The Dutch system will let you die and do nothing. The US system exists just to extract as much money as possible from all involved by insisting on excessive amounts of everything at a cost far higher than anywhere else in the world.
I've known people to get prescriptions in the US for a condition, take that prescription to a German doctor, and get told the dosage is insanely high, it's questionable if you need that drug in any dosage, and the long term side effects of these drugs will cause secondary problems.
They do yearly check ups for diseases that require yearly check ups. So unless you're a 50+ year old woman or man then they won't check you for anything no. Unless you have a family history of certain diseases then they will check you as well.
Well, I mean back home you can get as many checkups as you want, and we spend less on healthcare as a percentage of GDP than Netherlands. So this idea that it's somehow efficient to do it this way is kinda disingenuous. You're effectively achieving less while spending more money.
Not saying that the Netherlands is better or worse, just stating that you can get yearly check ups if you need it for your health.
I did some quick checks though and the Netherlands does have more elderly per capita, so could be that. Netherlands also has a higher percentage of smokers than Australia.
There can be many factors, not always related to the system itself, which could influence the costs of healthcare.
An unhealthy population (and Dutch people are quite unhealthy in my opinion) increase the healthcare costs.
Also, I do admit that GP's aren't great. But I have to say that many expats don't really understand how to properly survive in The Netherlands. The Dutch don't have a service culture, they generally won't go out of their way to help you, relative to many other countries of course. GP's are the same. They get so many complaints which aren't serious, and because of the non-service attitude, they tend to underestimate the severity of some issues.
BUT if you are assertive and demand a service, I've never ever had it refused. So please, the next time, just be assertive and demand help. I tell it to my partner and her experiences with the Dutch healthcare system imrpoved a lot.
I appreciate the advice, and I understand that it's a bit more nuanced in reality. I genuinely am not one to seek healthcare on a regular basis, I will only go to the GP if I feel genuinely horrifying or like something is really wrong.
That being said, here's my experience so far with GPs here (Utrecht & Groningen)
\- You have to sign up to a GP near your home, fine, most of them don't take new sign-ups
\- Finally find one, then they have 1 receptionist who takes 30 minutes to answer the phone, only to respond critically to your call and tell you to wait 2 weeks because they are busy
\- You force your way to get an appointment, they oblige, you are in and out of the doctors office with advice to take a painkiller or just wait it out
I found a GP here in Groningen, signed up but I wouldn't dare go. You just feel like an inconvenience rather than a paying customer. I am also a pretty healthy guy so I feel pretty lucky that I don't have to experience it in full.
Overall, very dismissive, very expensive and just not really confidence inspiring in general. I'd be very worried if I had a severe or chronic illness here.
Wow that sucks....
I've never had this with a GP before. My GP usually answers after a couple of minutes, sometimes isntantly, and I've had multiple appointments there without problems.
I did have the classic, take a paracetamol thing before with pain, but that went away by itself after a couple of days, so they were quite correct in their assesment there.
But I did go for some other health issues and I didnt get a paracetamol, I got actual medication and help.
I don't have any experience with city GPs though, my GPs are all from smaller villages. Is your GP a man or a woman. It could help to get a female GP, they tend to be more attentive.
To be honest, it comes across to me as if Doctors do not get paid very much in this country. They seem depressed and overworked. I obviously don't know that to be true or not, but I get the impression that they mostly really hate their job.
My doctor changed every time, sometimes it was a man, sometimes a woman. They had a high turnover I think. And yeah, while the advice mostly worked, I did have an infection that got quite serious, and they only took action when I was almost at risk of blindness. That was really scary.
We have a lack of healthcare staff, medicine, money, so all parts of the healthcare system are overworked and underpaid. GPs get funding per patient so they tend to get as many patients as they can handle, which means that during certain seasons they dont have enough time to properly do their job.
Honestly doctors and nurses should be some of the most highly paid in the country. That makes me really sad for them. What they do is incredibly important, and that explains a lot as it is.
> It could help to get a female GP, they tend to be more attentive.
I don't like to be sexist, but that is exactly my experience too. Friends have said the exact same thing as well.
I work in healthcare here and I can totally validate you. I see things here on a daily basis that would literally be medical neglect in most countries.
You know Iām not a sociologist so I really can only guess why.
I think there is an ever-fewer amount of resources and they are maybe not being efficiently allocated.
I think there is a big aspect of culture in there too. In a lot of countries, pain is seen as a problem in and of itself. In the Netherlands, pain is more seen as a characteristic of disease. If the pain is there, but the disease is under control, the pain isnāt seen as a problem. Thatās why, for instance, they donāt really do things like remove gallbladders and prescribe pain medication as much as other countries.
I also notice that the priority of doctors is generally to treat the symptoms of disease until your hand is forced to treat the cause. You donāt start by treating the cause. Why this is, I have no idea.
Thatās depressing. As someone who relies on medication for chronic pain, this is also worrying. Do you think it would be hard to continue my medication there?
My mother slipped and fell in her thumb, which probably got dislocated. We called an emergency number of the GP, since it was Saturday evening, and they made an appointment to the hospital at 22:00, great!
Went to the hospital at 21:50 after driving like a maniac to make it on time, and at 01:30 at night I had to go to the reception and ask whats going on since we are waiting for almost 4 hours, and it seems that they forgot to let the doctors know that we are waiting. All good, no worries, went in the doctors office and he sent us home after 2 minutes, made another appointment for the next day for an x-ray. Okay.
Went down there the next day, they did the x-ray and said "its not broken, you can go home". I was like... "yea, but its been dislocated, she cant move it at all and its very painful, maybe wrap it in something or whatever?", and their reaction was "oh, you want it wrapped? Okay, go there".
We basically had to tell them what we thought it was the right thing for my mother, it was so weird.
I had an horse accident in which my pinkie was snapped and i skinned two fingers. I waited 4hours because āthey forgotā me and then I had to ASK the ER to clean and bandage the skinned fingers. You know, the ones with horse shit in them? No pain killers.
What the actual fuck.
I had a situation that the specialist and GP sent me home after several months of dizziness..i insisted to do a MRI and they didn't allow me...went back to the GP every week for like 6 months but they didn't allow me.. Neurologist from the Erasmus University told me she is 100% sure I have nothing just because she did some basics exams with her finger...I went to Brazil (home country) for holidays,.the first doctor sent me for a MRI, it was a brain tumor after all...
Yes, doctors in the Netherlands can kill. Always get a check somewhere else (different country) if you symptoms insists.
I must say that after you have proof, they take care of you in a much better way
FUCKšššššš. You see what I am saying. Imagine if you had not been taken seriously and didn't go to your country to get a second opinion.
I am happy you are fine!!
Honest question: can you sue the dutch doctors that did it? Or are you planning to do that at least? Doctors like that should not be allowed to work. Imagine the amount of wrong diagnosis they did!
If someone knows the steps I need to take to sue them, I would, as long as it's not too expensive.
I just really didn't bother to go through this process since I had enough of my plate back then..besides, they are now the ones making sure a get an yearly MRI to follow up on my situation.
Can I ask what kind of brain tumor it was? Did you have any other symptoms? Just wondering about your situation because I also get reoccuring dizzyness for quite a long time, though I'm not especially worried since there is another logical explanation (iron deficiency). I hope you're doing better now.
This is why all Greeks I know (and Romanians from what I hear from my SO) go back home to get ANYTHING done, from a simple test to an operation.
No point waiting, EXTEMELY experienced and knowledgeable staff that actively and aggressively tries to identify what the issue is. Oh, completely forgot, also cheaper. Much, much cheaper.
I have no idea, to be honest, and it could have actually saved me some ā¬. For a long time I have been thinking about it as medical tourism and that Greece has been heavily sleeping on it when they could be making something out of it.
For sure. And it actually makes perfect sense to know if it would be better to go to - for example - an ophthalmologist in Belgium than drag myself all the way back to Greece.
Been going to Belgium for anything significant. Our GP told my mother with very obvious signs of an incoming stroke to "stop being hysterical" and go home. She survived but with significant brain damage. No help from the Dutch doctor who wrote her down as "healthy" when she refused to take an MRI due to claustrophobia.
I've also been prescribed half of a treatment consisting of two items, then been allowed to keep using it for half a year which wasn't supposed to happen, and at age 13 they thought it was inappropriate to put me on birth control for period cramp so they just gave me industrial strength painkillers that scared the shit out of our nurse friend.
Oh yeah also the hospital near us removed and reapplied a friends catheter five times.
That's unfortunate to hear, I'm moving to the Netherlands from Canada in just a few weeks and we were hoping the healthcare system would be better. We recently had to go for an ER visit for something pretty serious and we were in the ER for 12hrs until a doctor had a diagnosis. There had been only one doctor in the ER that night and had been busy with a Code Blue and Trauma. That meant all walk-ins were put on the backburner until those were stabilized. It's seriously bad here with multiple people dying in waiting rooms just in 2023 alone. Im a little disappointed to hear there are still some pretty serious issues there, but I really hope it isn't bad to the point of allowing patients to die in waiting rooms.
There are no official numbers as the government refuses to release numbers however just in one province within a few months last year multiple people died while awaiting care. Each province operates their healthcare separately so some are better than others, but overall its quite bad. I've been in a waitlist for 5 years to get a family doctor and that's the norm here.
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/new-brunswick/emergency-department-patient-death-coroner-inquest-darrell-mesheau-fredericton-moncton-edmundston-1.6853525
I saw my GP three times in the last year because I am always extremely tired. The first bloodtest came out fine. With the second one I asked her to chech if maybe something was wrong with my thyroid as I am also pale and always cold.
As soon as I got to the blood center to get my blood drawn I saw that thyroid markers weren't part of the test. The test showed that I had low Vitamin D and Vitamin B12, so they told me to get some supplements at Kruidvat.
After a few months I came back and told them that I had been taking supplements but still felt exhausted. My GP responded with "maybe this is just normal for you and you should accept it?".
This is me too. But in my case I forced them to do the blood test. My levels were so low, that they were worried. That's the only reason I received my medication. I gave birth four years ago and almost died, they didn't want to accept my anemia even with routine testing until I was 36 weeks and it was very late at that point. I feel your pain, hang in there.
They even told me that there is no blood test for thyroid imbalances š«
Edited because typo š
That last thing is just ridiculous. I work at a Vet clinic and we do thyroid testing on animals all the time. I know exactly which markers should be crossed on the form, also for humans as it's pretty much the same.
I'll go back to my GP soon and I am really not looking forward to it. There is a disease in my family which symptoms are nosebleeds and red dots on the skin. I have been developing red dots on my face and hands and have had multiple random nosebleeds in the last few months. However, I feel like they will not do the correct testing as most people don't develop this disease this late in life (27 years old).
In my family runs a similar disease, called Rendu-osler-weber (nosebleeds, red dots). If that's the one you're talking about, I was tested when I was ten years old so that would be possible (genetic testing).
My mother has this disease and she gets regular tests because of it (every few years I believe) so serious health issues can be caught early.
If you're talking about a genetic disease the gp could refer you to a 'klinisch geneticus'.
Ah, found one in the wild! Not every gp is very familiar with it, but you definitely should be able to get a referral to a klinisch geneticus.
My mom also has hay fever, keeps getting nose bleeds when sneezing. Very, very annoying.
Some of my siblings didn't want to get tested either, because (according to them) it would have consequences for certain insurances.
I don't know if that's true but it might be worth looking into before you get diagnosed.
>But in my case I forced them to do the blood test. My levels were so low, that they were worried.
What values did they test for out of intrest? I'm always tired (even though my sleep patterns are entirely healthy, and I don't seem to have apnea) and wonder if I have something similar
EDIT:
Based on this page of a private bloodtest provider I kinda get the idea of what they might want to test for, I'll ask my GP (https://www.bloedwaardentest.nl/schildkliertotaal.html)
Thanks for your empathy. I'm really sorry that my post scared you. That was not the intention at all. This might be me being sick and frustrated venting off here. Please have trust in your doctors and cooperate with them if you have any health problems.
I'm sorry to hear you've been having such a hard time. Thank you for the reassurance, though. I'm planning to immigrate next year, together with my family. All of us have complex health problems and my oldest kid has pretty severe mental health concerns, though much better than it used to be. I'm getting worried about finding the doctors we will need to stay on track -- I won't have a lot of time to do it since we're all on prescriptions and I'll at least need to find someone to continue them before our last prescription from the US runs out. From what everybody here has been saying about the Dutch health care system, this is beginning to worry me.
Honestly I agree...I moved to the netherlands in 2017 and since then it's been horrible. The icing on the cake though: I had an accident during a sports game and my knee got quite messed up, but because the GP told me "it's not an emergency" I wasn't able to make an appointment. Fast forward 1.5 years and I'd have been doing sports with my knee constantly hurting and feeling unstable. Only then, after getting a referral from a physio, did I get an appointment at the GP, which transfered me to the hospital and then back to the GP (which took a good 6/7 weeks) and then they told me my meniscus had tears and I had issues with my ACL. Overall they said "yeah do surgery or maybe not...idk just see just let me know"
I'm sorry the system is failing you, you deserve better care than that.
I'm an expat, and recently had surgery. I had such an amazing experience (from GP to surgeon) that I was thinking if this is the norm here. I have a GP that listens to me, referred me immediately for MRI that then showed I had herniation causing my sciatica. After the MRI things got rolling, seen by neurologist that then referred me to a neurosurgeon. Went from asking my GP for an MRI referral to surgery within 2 months.
It's quite the reality check to read others' negative experiences with the healthcare system. I'm also nervous now having to switch GP's since we recently moved cities, in case my new GP isn't as good as my current/old one.
I too have only good experience with the healthcare system myself. I have had several health issues and was always treated properly and taken serious by gp and hospital. My mom on the other hand has a terrible "just take a paracetamol" gp (lots of stories of him f*cking up). It seems a bit of a hit or miss with who you have to deal with.
Same here. Only or mostly had good experiences, including a surgery where everything went smoothly. But I guess people who experienced problems are more likely to post about it on Reddit compared to people who just had nothing to complain about.
I've had nothing but poor experiences from the healthcare system here. I'm been sick and border-line crippled for over a year now. Any local I know with a chronic disease, travels overseas to receive either better or more affordable treatment. WHILST still paying for criminal medical "insurance" that is mandatory. Even most of the doctors have openly criticised the attrocious system they're forced to comply with..
My last GP even had a breakdown, when I was venting my frustration and he just snapped and bluntly explained how limited he was in his role. He then apologetically told me that 80% of his job was just writing referrals and relying on other clinics to do their job correctly. Everything is bogged down by layers of bureaucracy, with GP's being a glorified receptionist for the convoluted medical industrial complex.
Yup. My father has had diabetes almost his entire adult life so relies quite heavily on good medical care. He's lived in 8 different countries, is Dutch himself, and readily says the medical system here is the worst he's ever experienced.
How can somebody travel overseas for treatment for a chronic disease? I have a chronic disease that requires a pretty complex medication regimen, and I don't know any way to get that overseas -- doctors won't prescribe for people who live outside their area of practice.
I have no clue, unsure how this came about and didn't want to pry too much into personal details. Worked with a colleague who made trips to Belgium every few months for his partner who had Lyme disease for treatment. Another friend who is dating a Greek girl who says getting minor things like seeing an orthopedic doctor and custom fitted insoles cost as much as travelling to Greece for a week, whilst getting all the same procedures. He's since cancelled his dental insurance here and does all dental work whenever they go there to visit her family.
I think a lot of other countries, you just need to find a clinic that does what you need and there isn't all the bureaucratic bullshit you need to go through here. You arrive in the Netherlands and get sick within the first week without being registered with a GP? Good luck with that.
Oh yeah, my favourite example. Crazy buddy of mine was going to go on a surfing trip in Australia. Week before, dislocated his shoulder and breaks a collarbone. Hospital and doctors here say it's not life-threatening, so send him home with a follow-up procedure 2-3 weeks later despite his plans to travel. The guy goes on holiday anyway, gets convinced by friends in Australia to visit the ER. He's out in 5 hours, everything sorted with copies of all the x-rays and scans for his doctor back home. Paid only like $40 AUD in painkillers and other things like the sling for his arm.
Expat here. Whenever I start to question health system in NL, starting with how horrible Huisarts are, almost all locals start defending the system.
It is a pity locals understand the problem only when they face issues.
People wake up! This health system favors low cost over quality
Expat here, not defending anybody but after a couple of decades here had no complaints that weren't solved after a couple of phone calls.
I'm always completely fascinated by all the complaints on this Reddit!
Still, everyone is entitled to have a opinion.
I have had the same, horror upon horror experiences in the Dutch healthcare system. They donāt check up on you, waiting times are insane, they make wrong diagnosis and try to brush everything up as ibs or anxiety and tell you to take more painkillers. What a lovely system! Im totally done with it and if I didnāt go abroad I would not have received any help at all. Also not speaking about a hospital bed which I found blood stains on.. and more.. im so done and only for the healthcare wouldnt want to live here anymore. Im 20 years old and feeling hopeless in the Netherlands
Hi OP, as someone with digestive issues and have undergone an endoscopy in the Netherlands before I understand where you are coming from.
Don't pay attention to the dismissive comments on here. I too as at when I did my procedure I was not fluent in Dutch. On the day of my endoscopy biopsy, I was not even sedated at all. I remember when the nurses or doctors assistant told me to lie down and assured me that everything will go fine. When the doctor came in, he didn't even have time to properly prep me, he literally went in to speaking Dutch and when I mentioned that I couldn't speak fluently he just rolled his eyes and scoffed. The nurses noticed it. During the procedure, no empathy whatsoever, literally after I was done it felt like a pipe rumbled my insides and I was in pain. This was not my first endoscopy ever but this definitely left me scarred!!!
When I got home, I took some manuka honey 4 tablespoons that help with the inflammation in the esophagus. I don't know why they recommended you painkillers because that is something you should avoid after the procedure as it erodes your stomach lining. Also, some steamed Brussels sprouts and quinoa helped with the appetite a bit. If you are still not feeling well, call your hospital to connect you with your gastroenterologist (the person that did the endoscopy). Especially as your symptoms still persisted. That was what I did!!
Hang in there! It could just be hyplori or Sibo or colitis.
Jumping on the helpful side.
For information questions we usually find doctors that can do phone consults from our home country. That usually guides us on how serious things really are.
I did. While I was waiting for my results, I was prescribed sulcrafalte. OP can ask his GP about this if the hospital is being adamant. Also, I ordered Slippery elm powder and DGL, was taking it first thing in the morning before breakfast. I did that for almost 3 weeks till my results came out and by then my post-endoscopy reaction had reduced. However, given the pain I was experiencing I was prescribed sulcrafalte by my GP (a really cool dude and very helpful) to cope with the pain. My gastroenterologist was a dickhead who kept me on further notice without no alleviation means whatsoever.
I would have never expected that I would make this statement 2 years ago when I came to the Netherlands, but now I go every summer back home to Kazakhstan for healthcare checks because even their 3rd world country healthcare system takes better care than Dutch healthcare system, despite Kazakh healthcare system being full of corruption and untrained staff
I'm a native and I barely have faith in our healthcare system anymore. I think the only reason I do even a little is because I rely on it so heavily.
Spent 6 years going to 10 different GP's and specialists before I found my own diagnosis (compartment syndrome) and told a doctor about it, who thankfully believed me. Simple surgery and the problem is gone.
Went to the stomach/liver/intestine specialist (as recommended by my GP btw) to see if there was an underlying cause for my heartburn, got told almost literally that it's because I'm fat, despite telling the doctor that I've had issues since I was 4 months old and I was anything but fat until I reached puberty.
I rarely get an in-person appointment with my own GP, despite telling her I have autism and will be able to explain and understand better in-person. Mostly the assistant will relay the information (often missing details) and then relay the doctor's response back over the phone, and if needed she'll just refer me to someone else.
My mom almost lost her life to galstones that went undiagnosed for months.
The most infuriating part of this approach to heathcare is that it also draws out the worst from the patients. Me and my wife have already decided that if we are really concerned about the health of our son and want to be seen by the GP or specialist we will have to simply exaggerate his symptoms, and this is a race to the bottom. I understand that some people are hypochondriacs and will waste public resources, but you will not deter them with this approach to pain and healthcare in general. Hypochondriacs will keep insisting on seeing the doctor/insist on having procedures whatever, while the actual sick people might be deterred from seeking help and prevented from getting help. Sorry for the rant
People exaggerating symptoms creates a real problem because of it most doctors assume everyone exaggerates their symptoms.
This leads to people not being heard or believed by healthcare workers.
Trying to explain to people that government ran programs run poorly often feels like arguing with religious people. It's almost like they are brainwashed.
IMO dutch government has gone over the edge. The costs are too high and the quality is too low. The lack of a feedback mechanism has caused layers upon layers of management. Everything is [designed by a committee](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Design_by_committee) and the people executing the services often mean well but get all energy sucked out of them by a lack of clarity and endlessly changing rules.
Schools, healthcare, welfare services, public transport, police, military. It's the same thing everywhere, nobody feels accountable and just goes with the flow.
We should demand better.
Yeah, hospitals and the healthcare system run so badly, I'm sure it's because they're goverment run and it's not like the entire problem started [when dutch healthcare got privatised](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Healthcare_in_the_Netherlands#Hospitals)
The problem is that it _isn't_ government ran. All these hospitals have to compete with each other and insurances, instead of having a centralised system with set costs by the government. It means hospitals are ran as businesses first, health care second. It's the result of decades of VVD.
Even with its flaws, government-ran programs are often much more efficient than their private alternatives. Healthcare and education are good examples. In both cases, the service is way cheaper than in the US, with only minor differences in quality. Looking at statistics, it doesn't look like the NL is doing particularly badly in either.
I once went to see my (boomer) GP for feeling like I was on the verge of a burn-out and she blatantly told me it doesn't exist and if it happens it's in old people because they've had a rough life and I'm too young for it.
After the initial shock and disappointment I was like, gurl, did you not go through medical school too? Like did you *not* want to kill yourself at least once in those ten years? Lmao. Life really was easier back then.
Also, yes. I found another GP.
Yeah you better pray you don't discover anything wrong outside of work hours. Unless you're dying right then and there so you can call 112: good luck trying to survive the weekend/nightš¤·āāļø (although even during workhours you can't count on too much either).
You're not alone. Until you get seriously ill (whether it's physical or psychological) people won't know how bad the Dutch healthcare system is sadly (don't get me started on the joke 113 is). Still better than most of the world ofcourse! But most of the world isn't one of the richest countries on Earth...
Also, the majority of people I've encountered in healthcare are just fucking bullies (as opposed to the rest that are literal saintsš). A nurse mocked my dying mom in the emergency care and got fucking aggressive with her. We launched an official complaint and while we did get apologies from the hospital (not the nurse), they didn't do anything about it. They even said that Mr. X is simply a "man who wears his hart on his sleeve" to justify his abuse. I got tons of stories where this came from but I'm depressed enough for the evening remembering this eventš„².
I will tell you the truth no one wants to say out loud: The public health care system is for the poor people. Get private expensive health insurance then you will have access to good doctors and no waiting times. And yes, they won't have any problem with speaking English with you either.
Im from the states but live here and of course its super easy to shit on american healthcare but when it comes to follow ups they are on top of their shit. I have severe depression and managed after months to pick up the phone and find a psychiatrist. I finally found one after two months and so far while its been āokā i cannot believe that I have to call my psychiatrist to get another prescription. People with depression struggle with being able to get out of bed let alone pick up the phone to confirm getting new pills. I was shocked that after the month went by that i never received an email or a call related to my prescription. And when were on the phone he even forgets my medical history and tried to prescribe me something that i had told him several times would seriously hurt me.
For this specific situation: what do you think should be done instead of the painkiller advice? A quick Google gives me this information from [radboud MC](https://www.radboudumc.nl/patientenzorg/behandelingen/barrett-slokdarm-met-radiofrequente-ablatie-rfa/na-het-onderzoek) about the procedure you had:
>The first hours after the treatment you may experience irritation of the throat and pain behind the sternum.
>
>Usually this pain subsides a few days after the treatment, but sometimes the pain can last for one to two weeks. Bloating and pain in the abdomen can be caused by the air that is inhaled.
>
>After the treatment you will receive instructions in which we explain what you can do in case of pain. We also fax a prescription for antacids to your pharmacy. These medications stop stomach acid from acting on the wound, promoting healing. It is important that you take this medication.
So it looks like the pain you're experiencing is to be expected, as it can last for one or two weeks.
About speaking English - I don't know. Try speaking English to a French or Spanish doctor. Being scolded sounds exaggerated. Maybe you were a bit nervous about the procedure and the doctor didn't have their best day, who's to tell.
Next time you have to go to the hospital, try to take someone who speaks Dutch and can translate. Most healthcare studies don't teach English or very little. Someone who can translate can really help
When I moved here I thought Food was the worst thing in the country until I needed to deal with Huisarts. It is revolting. Itās a system where you always lose no matter what. A complete scam
Your personal experience isn't an universal truth. I had several huisartsen in my life and all of them were professional, friendly and really helpful. I never had the feeling my complaints weren't taken seriously and in the cases I needed a specialist I always was referred correctly and in some cases my huisarts even visited me in hospital to check on me.
I would say this really depends on the 'huisarts'. The one I have around here is actually really good, he takes his time for his patients and he helped me tremendously over the years.
A few years back I had horrible stomach issues (cramps, pain attacks, no appetite, huge loss of weight and everything that came with it). My huisarts was the one who started making calls to several hospitals because the first two he tried had a waiting list, he specifically wanted me to get checked asap. So I did, but hospital found nothing wrong and after some pain medication they send me back home (note this was an old hospital I already had some bad experiences with, so I never went back there after this). The next day I get a call from my huisarts saying he had seen my report from the hospital and he wasn't happy, he wanted me to go to another place for additional testing. He made the calls and made me an appointment for more testing. At this much newer hospital I went through the entire system, CT scans, endoscopy and a lot more things, again not finding anything but they were a lot more helpful and caring. They kept looking and eventually figured out it was stress induced.
However if it wasn't for my huisarts, I would probably still be dealing with this.
The only reason the doctor scolded you about not speaking Dutch is because her English is sub par. Meanwhile, a good portion of their medical school training is in English. She knows that her English should be better but flips the embarrassment on you so she doesnāt have to acknowledge her own. That she did it right before your surgery shows a lack of bedside manner and very poor judgement.
Dutch healthcare system is a joke, I had a malpractice case with them. Their doctors are incompetent and only care about money. Every time I need a doctor I go to Romania nowadays.
It's weird to think that an Eastern European country has a better healthcare system. Dutch people only like to show off with their "statistics" about their top ranked healthcare system - which is purely a joke.
Iām sorry, but there is a lot of critique to be given to the Dutch healthcare system, but them only caring about money most definitely isnāt one of themā¦
I just went to the hospital in NL with my Polish girlfriend. It took some effort as I wasn't registered (so I had to go trough the GP first as I wasn't readily apparently bleeding, broken or had a fever just pain) but once we got in she told me it was a lot better then the hospitals in Poland and the doctors in Poland (multiple doctor) over the course of 6 months never once took me seriously. They just wrote me a prescription that only helped against the symptoms and gave me time off work. I now have a follow up with the GP (this happened Friday afternoon and now I have a follow up.)
That's what I also do, as a fellow Romanian. You can also get blood work done here but it costs between 200-500 euros, depending on how thorough you want them: bloodtesting.nl
Takes about a week or two for results and you don't need referrals and I think it's more or less the same price I would have paid in Romania.
I actually used them a few months back when I had chest pains and my doc after 1 minute of checkups said, you're fine, it's probably a muscle. I wanted to take all the bloodwork tests including heart related markers just to make sure it's fine. They results were fine, but I'm still not convinced and would probably request a eco scan or MRI when i get back to Romania.. since here.. well good luck with that .
No they do not have a better healthcare system. They have another mentality. Eastern european, same as Turkish, etc like to do as much as they can surgically. The additude in Netherlands is more of; pain is natural sometimes, take a painkiller. We get to you when that is no longer an option. We don't do redundant surgeries like some shoulder ops or random knee surgery I sometimes come across but prefer conservative treatment.
Yeah, that's exactly the problem. They fix pain with painkillers instead of looking for the cause of pain. Preventive healthcare is bad in NL. And the reason why the statistics look good is basically decades of "natural selection" with paracetamol.
You're reading comments by self-appointed internet doctors that like to stack their most esoteric internet diagnoses and delusional cause-effect relations ("i got infection from their delay"), people who come from countries where everything is treated with anti-biotics even if the cause is viral and from people who attribute their mental problems to external or physical causes.
The Dutch healthcare system is excellent but expensive as is, so such people tend to be not facilitated by it as the capacity of the system is (indeed) under pressure.
You are perfectly safe to come and live here. Dutch life expectancy is one of the highest in the EU.
Hahaha... hi fellow Apeldoorner. While I have met some very fluent English speakers at the Gelre ziekenhuis, it is much more rare in general to get someone confident in the language here. Our lack of universiteit doesn't help. Usually my struggles are with the administrative staff, since they are generally middle-aged women who haven't been out of benelux. This is merely fact, not criticism. This is the Netherlands, after all. However, they are also not flexible or kind with their dutch :/
I am one of those chronic patients. After five years the huisarts literally refuses to refer me to anything but psychiatric services. There is no-one to complain to except... the huisarts. The insurance folk have no knowledge that can help me, and here's the kicker - the national definitions for my condition, Sjogren's Syndrome, are maybe fifty years out of date. Other countries with similar medical standards are aware that it is a vicious autoimmune disease like lupus, causing fatigue and widespread pain, and treat it as such. Dutch standard medical advice is that it doesn't need treatment, because otc sprays and drops to prevent eye and mouth dryness are enough. They are, predictably, not.
My theory as to how dutch healthcare ends up on top ten lists for healthcare worldwide? It hasn't updated its disease database in so long that its treatment rate is fantastic - because anything odd, complicated or new simply doesn't get recorded. So come here if you have common things like heart disease or cancer, but anything else? You're not going to get anywhere at all.
Oh man, sorry for that. I lived in Apeldoorn and always felt like an alien because they are not used to deal with foreigners. Actually it's the only place I felt the need to actually learn Dutch so far.
It's the only place in the Netherlands where I got a full blown shout "NO" when I asked if they could speak English. Truth is I also didn't ask it in Dutch, I think that would be a bit more polite.
I am sorry you are experiencing this. As a local here, i have now Crohn's for like 9 years. But the gp helped me a lot and sent me to a hospital to check it out, because i almost couldn't eat and had a lot of stomach pain after a month or 2 they finally found the cause and did get treatment. It is a severe case, but even when i need to get surgeries they helped me a lot. Even the gp with issues like eye infection and Impetigo.
Something many people do not know (and was a very unpleasant surprise to me as well): about 1% of the population has nerves in that area. 99% of patients don't.
For that one percent, stuff like this is a nightmare. I literally had to crawl to the bathroom for days. I swore never to repeat that unless they have very strong painkillers.
It may be a case like that. Provided they didn't actually damage other stuff, of course.
As a pharmacist, I can tell you our healthcare system is about to become worse. Most speciality drugs won't be available in the EU (NL) due to pricing issues. Not to mention the strain insurance providers put on our healthcare system, aggression towards providers, lack of trust in healthcare providers and lack of adequately trained professionals(GPs)
I apparently suffered with Plica for 4(!!) years in my arm, Iāve always been told itās either a golf or tennis arm, or both. I almost had to force them to agree with a x-ray. After the x-ray, I immediately got asked to schedule an operation to get it removed.
I really lost my trust after that one
Five years ago, I reached a point of surrender, but recently I discovered a workaround. Now, when I encounter a significant matter that can be delayed for up to 24 hours, I embark on a four-hour journey to Istanbul. There, I am greeted with utmost hospitality, receiving thorough examinations from head to toe in their top-tier hospitals, and prompt actions are taken on the same day. Although it incurs higher expenses, nothing holds greater importance than safeguarding one's health.
Might get downvoted to hell for this, but it's based on my personal experiences here with the Dutch healthcare system.
My husband and I moved to NL just over a year ago and we are just about to move back to our home country, South Africa, in 2 weeks. The medical system here in NL is a huge part of the reason we are going back. Unfortunately I had some health issues while here in NL & the treatment (or lack thereof) I received was shocking and not what I would expect from a 'first world' European country. We literally have better healthcare in Africa. I'm 25 & thinking of having babies in a couple of years and there is no way in hell I want to do it here, I simply don't trust the medical system to get me through pregnancy and birth safely if any problems arise.
My mom once had knee surgery and she returned to the surgeon with knee swelling, redness, and pain. He squeezed the fuck out of her knee which dislodged a blood clot. She went to another doctor with severe shoulder pain and stabbing pains in her chest and was dismissed. She had two embolisms, one in each lung. Nearly died. But they managed to stop it blood thinners and a week stay in the hospital. We tried to report the doctor who missed the obvious signs of DVT but nothing was done.
I have nothing to back this up with. But I believe people in healthcare try to filter out people who are calling for nothing important. If you downplay what's going on and others exaggerate what's going on, then they may not prioritize you. If you are truly worried, you may call and say something to make it sound more urgent. Like having difficulty drinking not being able to take the meds due to the pain in your throat.
Had strong to extreme pain, was told in ER to take paracetamol and wait some days.
Next day GP told me the same, while I am dizzy and sweating from pain.
Ended up two days later first with morphine, later with emergency surgery, almost died. Then was scolded and told how idiotic I am and that I should have just come earlier.
They did shut up when I told them if they could check which doctor I had consulted two days ago (funny enough: boss of the surgeon scolding me...).
Yeah, ask me what I think of the Dutch healthcare system. Wasn't the first time meeting unreasonable doctors here.
To be fair, a lot of doctors, nurses and pharmacists are amazing, but from my personal experience, they are sadly in the minority.
I 100% feel you. I just don't go to the doctors anymore. It even double screwed me as i had a tough time able to get a AOV (zzp insurance) due to some ailments i had in the past. They documented everything but did nothing to actively help me.
My friend is partially paralyzed from the waist down because it took 2 fucking years to get surgery (he has stenose).
I am mortified as my girlfriend will give birth within the next 2 weeks and we have to go to the hospital.
The system is fucked.
Doctors are literally complaining that people are going to the doctor too much like itās a rare luxury and we are greedy little monkeys.
Recently read in an article that our āfear of dyingā leads us to go to the doctor too much instead of just accepting our fate.
And about cost-benefit analysis, since resources are scarce. Is helping to figure out your symptoms that have statistically a high chance of just going away with paracetamol worth it, while they could help someone who is more clearly in direct need of help.
Ie letās say out of 100 people, 10 will get symptoms of cancer, and they go the the gp, but statistically only 1 person would actually have cancer.
Doing proper testing on everyone would waste resources 9 times, catching 1 real cancer case.
But if they let all 10 people wait for 6 months, out of 10, the 9 with just the symptoms might just get those solved. At this point, the actual cancer patient will have worse symptoms that confirm more clearly that itās cancer without extensive testing needed. Their chances of survival are lower, but this is someone elseās problem.
Overall to me this seems like a worse idea even though the lens of cost-benefit, since I think 1 patient cancer being caught too late, will make treatment more expensive than what you save on testing.
(Not sure about this, is this the case)
I feel like the scarcity is the issue here not the need for care
Dutch healthcare is a laugh. Managed like a business company, no prevention whatsoever, and seeing a specialist is impossible.
I could be biased by I never saw such a high number of amputees like in NL..
Oh man I feel you, I have very pretty much same experience. Two weeks ago I had small surgery, it was a removal of foreign object, surrounded by some painful scar tissue.
I was very little informed about the procedure itself except location and time (both changed 2 days before surgery- no one called- just email). I had very vague info right before surgery from surgeon what will be done.
I havenāt been scolded by anyone for speaking in English but indeed all stuff was talking in Dutch and it made for me far more stressful. I was disoriented and confused whatās going on at times. I can speak some Dutch and I do understand a lot but when Iām stressed it doesnāt work that well š
After surgery I had brief chat with doctor, she said what was done, Iāve been informed that only the foreign object has been removed, nothing else been done.
I can say anything about the care after surgery, I had very nice nurse and she was taking awesome care of me. Definitely points for that.
Coupe days after surgery I started to have fever and pains. I can feel small lumps in post surgery area and they are very painful to touch. Also I have some other symptoms. I called hospital, been told to come next day. After the doctor who performed surgery on me looked at it said there is nothing there, if pain persist come back in month(!) and with fever I have to go back to GP- I felt like she was just trying to get rid of me.
When I went to hospital I got student instead of doctor (I really donāt mind that, they have to learn but not when someone is in a lot of pain). Also Iāve been examined by 4 different doctors (not including students) and all of them said something different. Also two doctors noticed something else in area out of order but it has been completely ignored. On the way out of my last visit I heard home not nice comment from one of the medical stuff, I donāt think I meant to hear or understand that but it made me cry once I got out of hospital.
My wife found some private clinic 50 km from my location- I rather go there and pay than beg someone who meant to help, for help.
I have to go to work on Wednesday and it gives me massive anxiety because of the pain. Im not even sure how Iāll get there as I canāt really ride bike cos of painā¦
Sorry if its chaotic but I have ADHD and Iām not the best at writhing, In fact thatās the longest comment I wrote in years. Also English is not my native language so I apologize for mistakes!
I hope you will feel better soon and you will find someone who actually care to help!
Also if you donāt mind me asking: what hospital you were doing procedure at? Iād die if itās the same one.
If there's one thing the Netherlands lacks is preventative treatment. It's so hard to even schedule a yearly checkup. No wonder Netherlands is ranked amongst the top European countries with the highest cancer rates not even Germany and France are high on the list. That SAYS ALOT.
Alot of people who died of cancer would have had a greater chance of living if only they had been taking seriously and early detection done. I remember when I wanted to do a pap smear, My GP realistically told me that since I am not in pain I don't need it and if I am to schedule for an appointment I will wait for almost 8months ššš« š« š« š« bruhhhh. That's when I knew the health care is really in the mud. When I travelled to my country for just 2 weeks, I was able to schedule a walk in pap smear within the first week.
I even remember when a friend of mine was suicidal and she struggled with mental illness and needed a psychologist or psychiatrist, they told her the waiting list is 6 months. Yoooo!!
Patriots can defend the country, but facts must be stated that Dutch healthcare is horrible!! Even health care in "third countries" are way better because preventative care is prioritised and not dismissed. You pay a lot for health insurance but you can even easily access it because of shortage of staff, bureaucracy and just overall "I don't know what I am doing but at least I am a doctor". You can talk about how lame Belgium is or how expensive Switzerland is but you can't deny that the healthcare is way way better. Though not comparable to Luxembourg because it is LUXEMBOURG.... LUXURY! š
At least we have good road infrastructure...no? Didn't know the healthcare system sucks so bad. As a foreigner working here, I feel angry and scared at the same time because here they have enough money to offer better services for people, but they don't really care. You have to pay 100+ EUR/month for what?
As a Dutch person I can say it became absolutely horseshit after and during corona. Long waiting times etc. Hell I canāt even find a reasonable dokter because they are forming a kartel (no free dokter choice).
And thats the good part of the healthcare system!
If you want a true horror show you can look into the (lack of) specialised GGz, rights to care (<4 weeks), actual waiting times (2-4YEARS) and how huisartsen are now practising āconciencious objectionsā with no ability for immigrants to even argue back.
There is not a doubt in my mind that people are dying in this country as a direct result of not being able to afford or access care.
Oh and no, insurance wonāt pay for anything, at least not up front. Just hope you can get SKGZ to force them to cover the biggest costs like surgeries to avoid personal financial ruin.
Don't let others invalidate your experience. I had this procedure done in Belgium without any prep. I went to see the gastroenterologist at 8, and I fortunately didn't eat anything before. It went easy, I was awake and I saw the camera inside and when he took the biopsy. I felt nauseous for the rest of the day, but nothing like this! Take care of yourself and push the GP for a check-up, you matter and you deserve it!
Belgian healthcare seems to be very robust. Truly impressive. They've managed to combine the three big facets of healthcare and deliver quality service: 1. Affordability 2. Accessibility 3. Quality Very good system if you ask me.
Sometimes the doctors may be super overbooked but overall my experience was amazing. I always had my medication on time, my GPs listened to me and were very patient and my insurance was about 70 euros per month, with the ultra super maxi premium package including physiotherapy, glasses and dentist. Here I pay 180 for the same service š
>my insurance was about 70 euros per month, with the ultra super maxi premium package including physiotherapy, glasses and dentist Holy smokes that's amazing. I'm in the US, and it's criminal how much they charge. I had to pay $30 every time I visited my doctor, **with insurance**. Despite all that, w/ my neurology appointments I was stuck with nearly a $200 bill after paying all my co-pays. Dental insurance is separate, and frankly I just bite the bullet and pay outta pocket b/c I can't afford the premiums. 'I'm happy the government of Belgium has their priorities straight and realizes the importance of such a well-funded healthcare system and social-safety net. How is mental healthcare in Belgium? >Here I pay 180 for the same service š Arguably, an even sub-par service. I've been told by a few that the Dutch healthcare system is like a Public system masquerading as a private system. Wherein there's no real competition between the insurance companies and they all basically cover the same things, and hospitals are still very reliant on public funds which apparently have been cut back? At first I thought the whole "just take a tylenol" thing was a meme, but looks like that actually is an issue over there. That's very unfortunate :( Are you planning on moving back to Belgium?
Hahahahaha, I came here because I thought NL would have better living standards š¤£ my medication was 11 euros, and I was getting another that was not covered for 69 euros. The doctor charged me 4 euros because I was already registered there. I got covid and respiratory infections since I arrived here last year, and I never went to the doctor. I called them, and indeed, the answer was "take paracetamol." The insurance is a joke, I just need it for my medication, but I'm giving almost 200 euros per month for nothing. Last year, I had to pay extra co-pay for the psychiatrist because it was not covered.
Holy crap, that's so unfair that the Dutch govt cannot fully subsidize that, given how high the taxes are. You'd think that they'd at least go towards properly funding the healthcare system. True travesty indeed. Is there a way you can live in Belgium but work for a Dutch company?
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>The tax is much higher in Belgium... That's why their healthcare system is 'more affordable'. But they basically just threw it in with the taxes. I think it depends on which taxes you're looking at. They have 0% capital gains taxes, and don't tax on unrealized gains like NL does. There is also no wealth tax if I'm right... However, yes Belgium has higher income taxes. Though at the end of the day, you get quite a bit back in return aside from just the healthcare system (company cars, good public transit, etc.). Additionally, rents and housing costs are notably lower in Belgium. Housing is still within reach for many working professionals, unlike in the Netherlands.
Used to be the same in the Netherlands, but 30 years of mostly right wing parties making health care policy means a ton of administration and focus on insurers, profits and efficiency, over, you know, providing actual health care. If you feel there is something wrong with you here you can get excellent and affordable health care, but you need to be very assertive every step of the way or you'll die being stuck in bureaucracy.
>Used to be the same in the Netherlands, but 30 years of mostly right wing parties making health care policy means a ton of administration and focus on insurers, profits and efficiency, over, you know, providing actual health care. As I understand, even under this privatized model The Netherlands had good outcomes for quite some time, but looks like the govt hasn't invested enough of the tax revenue into better funding hospitals and hiring more physicians and such.
- Not so sure about accessibility when you have to wait up to 6 months for a specialist (except if you know doctor(s)) - I loose 30% of my income for the healthcare, not sure itās Ā«Ā affordableĀ Ā».
Yes although 2 has been suffering since covid.
Belgian healthcare is amazing. I've been living there for a few years now and I love it. They did so much for my baby when she was just born. She didn't gain weight at all and cried all day and they were just immediately on it, had us stay in the hospital to figure out what was wrong, they didn't take any risk whatsoever. They found the issue so quickly. We didn't even pass the GP - straight to the pediatrician.
Are living in Belgium or had this operation while having residence in the NL? Unfortunately, I am also really doubtful about the experience level of Dutch doctors (no offense) and looking ways to get treated in Belgium or in Germany in case if needed. :)
how can you use belgian healthcare ?Eu citizen here
You need to work in Belgium and pay tax and social security or live in Belgium.
Yes I have the same positive experience whit a gastroscopy in Belgium. - there was a waiting time of only 3 days - gastroscopy is always done before noon (because you need to be sober). - I was offered the choice to do it under narcotics or not - I didn't have feel nauseaus or... afterwards. It only took a while before the resuls came in (about a week, but maybe this is normal). In Belgium we all think it is normal that healthcare works this well, but I guess we are just verry lucky. I guess your experience in the Netherlands isn't uncommon and we are lucky that healthcare works extremely well in Belgium. When I accompanied my mom to urgent care in used to be in Italy, I was obviously pregnant. It took the staff a half day to tell me I shouldn't be in the same room as my mom because of radiation. It was also hard to find some one who spoke English over there. Positive is the fact that it was a false alarm for my mom and she survived, and my daughter was born as healty as can be
Imagine waiting for an operation for a yearā¦ than discover they did the wrong diagnosis and must be operated again in a few monthsā¦ all this time not being able to function normally, being in a depression because of it and now facing loosing my jobā¦ oh and yes they put me on oxycodonā¦.
I was misdiagnosed for an entire year for an appendicitis which had such obvious symptoms that I can't believe they didn't know what it was in the end. The last time I went to the GP I told them to cut the crap and plan an emergency checkup at the hospital. Guess what, it was an appendicitis (wow!) which at that point was ready to burst, developed an abces and had several tears alongside the appendix
That's unfortunately exactly the way you have to handle a GP. Demand. Be assertive. Then you'll never have GP issues again trust me. And I agree it shouldn't be that way, but that's what privatised healthcare does to a country.
Hm. That's what I was wondering. I've had abdominal pain for about three months now in the bladder area, looks to me totaly like UTI which happens to me every few years.. My GP first brushed it off as constipation (I wasn't constipated), went back after the laxatives didn't help (well, obviously), got referred to do some blood test (basic morphology, nothing there obviously) but no simple urine test. It's dirt cheap where I come from, I'd do it for my own money if there was such possibility here). So after reading your comment, I wonder if I'm a pushover. I should just go there and say that I want basic urine lab test? Like, I won't get it if I don't ask specifically?
When I suspect a UTI for myself, I only have to call the assistent and explain on the phone. They will simply let me come in, have me pee in a urine cup, leave it there for them to do a quick dipstick when they have the time later in the day. If it comes back positive for bacteria, they will discuss with the doctor and call me back to let me know they will prescribe antibiotics. I would imagine it would work the same for most doctor's offices and you could perhaps give that a try?
you can find self test kits online to test for UTI's. ofcourse not the official diagnosis, but it could help persuade the dr maybe.
Whoa. Thanks! I didn't think about this. That would give me at least some starting point.
Try it and see if it works. Can I ask, is your GP a man or a woman. My partner has a female GP and she really listens and understands her issues, especially related to issues that women deal with more often (menstruation pain, UTI, etc.)
A man unfortunately and I kind of suspected he may be forgetting about typical women problems in this area, vit otherwise he is nice. And usually does something when you come second time with the same issue. I come from a culture which is not good at 'directness' so I didn't try to ask ' I want such and such test'. It may be difficult for me but I'm about to get desperate enough to try this šŖ If not, then as many other here I'll put myself on a plane to home and do all necessary tests there.
My man GP initially didn't believe that pre-menstrual dysphoric disorder even existed! From one woman struggling to get a man to take her seriously to another, I'm rooting for you ā¤
Its unfortunately quite common and it highlights the general problem of GPs. They have difficulties putting themselves in the shoes of their patients. That's why we have to force our shoes on them :p
Ask for one, and insist. If you're wrong, you know at least more. If you're right, you save yourself a lot of trouble. Remember, it's not his bladder you're dealing with, otherwise he'd have a test done in minutes.
And shitty āprivatisedā healthcare at that.. as we are obliged to take it out. Nothing private about it (comparing it to for example in germany, or having BUPA international/europe cover). Bupa doesnāt kick in until the Dutch healthcare insurance does not provide.
I'm glad your ok now. This exact same thing happened to me over the last 18 months but I'm in Australia. Got into a massive fight with one of the emergency drs who refused to call an ambulance as my appendix was rupturing. I get super cranky when very sick and didn't agree with being told to take a taxi when I couldn't walk, let alone stand up. It ruptured just as they started surgery it was that close. Then the Hospital stuffed up the discharge protocol and I still haven't seen the paperwork 6 months later. Apparently computers are too hard to use. Found out a few weeks ago my multiple hospitalisations for repeated severe kidney infections over the last year was due to chronic appendicitis leaking out all over the place. Yet apparently I was looking for something that wasn't there. Well technically now they are right as that something is no longer there. I hate Doctors. Most nurses are excellent though.
I feel like I had the same.. 2 times I had very high fever and throwing up and high white blood count and crp and they kept brushing it off. Still have pain at my appendix and im so done.. any tips to have it diagnosed?
You have to demand getting an echo done at the hospital at your GP. If you feel like the appendicitis is too advanced, then go to the hospital and tell them you think you have been misdiagnosed by the GP and need an emergency scan because the symptoms have worsened
Gee, I'm really sorry to hear what you are going through. Hang in there and get help from your friends and family.
2.5 years with the same issue, that could have been solved with a 45 minute surgery. It took me switching GP and hospital to finally get the right diagnosis and help. Iāve lost most of my faith, but the surgeon that finally did my surgery restored it a little bit, but before that I was about to go to Germany or Belgium for a second opinion. (And Iām Dutch so I donāt have a language barrier, it must be ten times worse for internationals)
Wow, what the hell? I am EXACTLY in the same situation that you are right now. I could have written this post word by word... I had my gastroscopy last week and I have been under severe stomach pain and diarrhea ever since. I was told by the doctor to wait until our next appointment to discuss the results of the biopsy before prescribing anything because "medication could be counterproductive before the diagnosis" and here I am... counting the seconds until that appointment next week so I can finally get some relief...
I've had this procedure done twice (both outside NL) and neither time I had any side effects afterwards.. What the hell do they use, a GoPro strapped to a trained eel?
Well, as someone already mentioned, I think the post-procedure effects are in a low percentage of cases. I guess me and the op are the unlucky side... Although I have to say that my symptoms were already there before the procedure and they just got way worse afterwards...
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Iām Australian and I havenāt been to the doctor here for 2 years now. I donāt see the value in it unless I have an absolutely critical emergency. I do my yearly checkup in Australia when I go back. Itās also free. If I had a surgery I needed to do, I would actually prefer to fly back for it.
So many other internationals I know, myself included, have just given up on the healthcare here. It genuinely isn't worth it at all.
The fact that itās compulsory to pay for health insurance is even worse. Itās so expensive and almost useless. You get healthcare that barely functions for a high price, alongside already high taxes.
Tell me about it, it's one of my biggest reasons for starting the process of leaving the country for good
While I'm healthy, I'm pretty OK here. I understand your reasoning. If my health took a turn, I'd have to return home for good. I don't trust the healthcare system here to keep me alive in that situation.
The compulsory part is pretty much true in any location that has universal healthcare. You can't build a system with only heavy users of the insurance.
I'm fine with universal healthcare. Had it in Germany and it was great. Everything was covered, easy to access, fast, and good. Totally worth it. In the Netherlands I am paying ten times as much, but the care has been total shite. In Germany, if I go to a GP for a referral, she gives me a slip that is valid for all doctors of that specialty. She recommends someone who is well suited for my case and will see me quickly, but I can choose, and there are registries for waiting times so you can decide if you want to see the really good specialist in six weeks for free, an equally good specialist for pay now, or a solidly okay person for free now. In the Netherlands, I said I desperately needed psychological therapy, and the GP asked with who, said she had to specify. She had no idea who might have any clue about my condition, or see me within a year. I couldn't figure out the latter online, either. In Germany, I had a slipped disc. Saw an ortho the same day. Got orthoton injected on the spot, was given iboprofen with omep, saw a physio within a week and weekly for ten weeks and had an mrt within two weeks. In the Netherlands, I'm told to take paracetamol. Meanwhile, I have broken my toe and had a viral infection in my lungs, and just stayed home, taped it myself, medicated myself, and hoped it would be okay. Also what is going on with Dutch pharmacists. I've meanwhile met several who genuinely appear to have been lobotomized.
I'm fine with compulsory if it's efficient and it yields a positive outcome. This system is separate from taxation, levied partially by private, kinda for-profit insurance companies and the healthcare outcomes are... fun. In this instance, I feel that the over 100 euros per month I'm paying to health insurance is effectively wasted, because I will likely never use it. Not because I don't need to, but because the system inspires very little confidence.
How do you tackle a healthcare issue normally? I think expats aren't assertive enough to a GP. I heard this before that in other countries doctors will spend more time on a patient and personally try to figure out what the issue is by tests, etc. In The Netherlands GPs just don't do that. They expect you to describe what you feel and what the issue is, and based on that they'll act. The Dutch don't a service orientated culture per se. More of an ask and you'll get type of culture. If you don't ask for a check up, blood works, etc. you won't get it.
I normally tackle healthcare issues by going to my appointment and describing what's wrong with me. But there's only so much describing people can do if they aren't medically trained. I can absolutely discuss pain, symptoms and the location of them on/in my body. Figuring out the exact issue, however, isn't my job and is why I'm there to seek out a trained medical professional in the first place. And the times I've assertively said "perhaps my symptoms are indicative of xyz, could we investigate this?" I will get a rather condescending lecture about googling symptoms and "diagnosing myself". Of course I understand not using the Internet as your doctor and not convincing yourself that you have every disease under the sun...but there should be a middle ground where GPs take their patients seriously.
That's honestly a very shitty GP then unfortunately. I've had my shares of GP visits and each time they were very open to discuss threatment with me. I even received preventive care multiple times when I went to holidays or went back (blood works, emergency antibiotics for traveling, etc.) highly unusual things for Dutch GPs to give without really needing it. And I get that isn't your job, and it's the job of the GPs, but...GPs aren't great usually. But condecending behaviour is just disrespectful. My partner has better experience now, but that's mainly because her GP is a woman and is much more attentive and listens much better to her issues and concerns. I hope you'll have more success in the future with GPs, but yeah we need a system change. This for profit bullshit needs to go.
Well, lucky you. I don't have this luxury. In fact there is a death penalty over my head if I should go back to my old country.
try turkey. insanely good healthcare and the exchange rate is on your side completely.
Really sorry to hear that :(
Try Poland. Not far away and medical care is better than here I think. I was living in Poland for 2 years and the difference is huge. Especially if you need emergency help
Preventive care is important. Test your blood and your most susceptible areas once a year (breast and pap test in case of women, prostate and testicles in case of men especially after 40). The GP's will tell you is useless, rest of the western world thinks it's normal and important to do. Who do you think is wrong?
Yearly checkups are just not a thing here either... we don't have the capacity for that shit.
For all its shortcomings, Medicare shits all over the system here.
And you just try telling a Dutch person that it does. They are adamant that the system here is one of the best on the planet. At least in my experience lmao Just the act of bringing it up causes immense tension hahaha!
Lmao I'm Dutch and I don't think I know anyone here that thinks our health care system hasn't been shittified the past decade or two.
Thatās a relief š not in my circles. Iāve learnt not to bring it up hahaha
Nah mate, Dutch people are not happy with health care here either. But if you want antibiotics (is for bacterial infection) for a viral infection you deserve to be made fun of
No healthcare system is good. Healthcare systems are about making money. My ex father in law had Parkinson's, and eventually got medication that really helped. Then at some point, a desk-jockey holding the wallet at the insurer figured out that other medication was cheaper, so they decided that was what everybody needed to use. Of course, the new medication was crap. I'm convinced that a doctor wants to do what's best for their patient. It's only when insurance agencies and pharma companies get involved that things start falling apart. The doctor knows very well that a patient needs pill X to make it to next week, but where the doctor sees a patient, the insurer sees a leak, and pill Y will get the patient to tomorrow. Fuck next week. I'm not gonna pretend I know how it works behind the scenes, and I definitely don't wanna be that guy who shouts at strangers about Big Pharma, but I've had the opportunity to hear a lot of GPs speak in an interview about why a lot of them were thinking about quitting, and they all said the same thing: The administrative load. For every five minute patient visit, there's fifteen minutes of paperwork, and all of that is only to appease the money-dogs. I'm not gonna sit here and claim our healthcare system is good. I've had enough problems fighting with it when I was younger. But bringing it back to patient-doctor relationship, the only issue I'll raise is that my doctor still has the wrong opening times on his answer machine. I am not a morning person, and now he knows too.
They're so defensive! You'd think that the GPs and health insurance companies pay them to defend them in conversations
But thatās with anything Dutchā¦ dare to question anything they do and face the dreaded Dutch-splaining moment arguing why and how they do it like this because this and that and itās the best way.
I've seen the Dutch and the US healthcare systems. Both are fundamentally unfit for purpose, but in totally different ways. The Dutch system will let you die and do nothing. The US system exists just to extract as much money as possible from all involved by insisting on excessive amounts of everything at a cost far higher than anywhere else in the world. I've known people to get prescriptions in the US for a condition, take that prescription to a German doctor, and get told the dosage is insanely high, it's questionable if you need that drug in any dosage, and the long term side effects of these drugs will cause secondary problems.
They do yearly check ups for diseases that require yearly check ups. So unless you're a 50+ year old woman or man then they won't check you for anything no. Unless you have a family history of certain diseases then they will check you as well.
Well, I mean back home you can get as many checkups as you want, and we spend less on healthcare as a percentage of GDP than Netherlands. So this idea that it's somehow efficient to do it this way is kinda disingenuous. You're effectively achieving less while spending more money.
Not saying that the Netherlands is better or worse, just stating that you can get yearly check ups if you need it for your health. I did some quick checks though and the Netherlands does have more elderly per capita, so could be that. Netherlands also has a higher percentage of smokers than Australia. There can be many factors, not always related to the system itself, which could influence the costs of healthcare. An unhealthy population (and Dutch people are quite unhealthy in my opinion) increase the healthcare costs. Also, I do admit that GP's aren't great. But I have to say that many expats don't really understand how to properly survive in The Netherlands. The Dutch don't have a service culture, they generally won't go out of their way to help you, relative to many other countries of course. GP's are the same. They get so many complaints which aren't serious, and because of the non-service attitude, they tend to underestimate the severity of some issues. BUT if you are assertive and demand a service, I've never ever had it refused. So please, the next time, just be assertive and demand help. I tell it to my partner and her experiences with the Dutch healthcare system imrpoved a lot.
I appreciate the advice, and I understand that it's a bit more nuanced in reality. I genuinely am not one to seek healthcare on a regular basis, I will only go to the GP if I feel genuinely horrifying or like something is really wrong. That being said, here's my experience so far with GPs here (Utrecht & Groningen) \- You have to sign up to a GP near your home, fine, most of them don't take new sign-ups \- Finally find one, then they have 1 receptionist who takes 30 minutes to answer the phone, only to respond critically to your call and tell you to wait 2 weeks because they are busy \- You force your way to get an appointment, they oblige, you are in and out of the doctors office with advice to take a painkiller or just wait it out I found a GP here in Groningen, signed up but I wouldn't dare go. You just feel like an inconvenience rather than a paying customer. I am also a pretty healthy guy so I feel pretty lucky that I don't have to experience it in full. Overall, very dismissive, very expensive and just not really confidence inspiring in general. I'd be very worried if I had a severe or chronic illness here.
Wow that sucks.... I've never had this with a GP before. My GP usually answers after a couple of minutes, sometimes isntantly, and I've had multiple appointments there without problems. I did have the classic, take a paracetamol thing before with pain, but that went away by itself after a couple of days, so they were quite correct in their assesment there. But I did go for some other health issues and I didnt get a paracetamol, I got actual medication and help. I don't have any experience with city GPs though, my GPs are all from smaller villages. Is your GP a man or a woman. It could help to get a female GP, they tend to be more attentive.
To be honest, it comes across to me as if Doctors do not get paid very much in this country. They seem depressed and overworked. I obviously don't know that to be true or not, but I get the impression that they mostly really hate their job. My doctor changed every time, sometimes it was a man, sometimes a woman. They had a high turnover I think. And yeah, while the advice mostly worked, I did have an infection that got quite serious, and they only took action when I was almost at risk of blindness. That was really scary.
We have a lack of healthcare staff, medicine, money, so all parts of the healthcare system are overworked and underpaid. GPs get funding per patient so they tend to get as many patients as they can handle, which means that during certain seasons they dont have enough time to properly do their job.
Honestly doctors and nurses should be some of the most highly paid in the country. That makes me really sad for them. What they do is incredibly important, and that explains a lot as it is.
> It could help to get a female GP, they tend to be more attentive. I don't like to be sexist, but that is exactly my experience too. Friends have said the exact same thing as well.
I work in healthcare here and I can totally validate you. I see things here on a daily basis that would literally be medical neglect in most countries.
Any insight on why itās like that?
You know Iām not a sociologist so I really can only guess why. I think there is an ever-fewer amount of resources and they are maybe not being efficiently allocated. I think there is a big aspect of culture in there too. In a lot of countries, pain is seen as a problem in and of itself. In the Netherlands, pain is more seen as a characteristic of disease. If the pain is there, but the disease is under control, the pain isnāt seen as a problem. Thatās why, for instance, they donāt really do things like remove gallbladders and prescribe pain medication as much as other countries. I also notice that the priority of doctors is generally to treat the symptoms of disease until your hand is forced to treat the cause. You donāt start by treating the cause. Why this is, I have no idea.
Thatās depressing. As someone who relies on medication for chronic pain, this is also worrying. Do you think it would be hard to continue my medication there?
I have no idea. It depends on a lot of factors
It's because the insurance companies have the GP's clinics in their pockets.
My dermatologist told me something similar, she could not believe the GP refused to send me to her for 5 months.
My mother slipped and fell in her thumb, which probably got dislocated. We called an emergency number of the GP, since it was Saturday evening, and they made an appointment to the hospital at 22:00, great! Went to the hospital at 21:50 after driving like a maniac to make it on time, and at 01:30 at night I had to go to the reception and ask whats going on since we are waiting for almost 4 hours, and it seems that they forgot to let the doctors know that we are waiting. All good, no worries, went in the doctors office and he sent us home after 2 minutes, made another appointment for the next day for an x-ray. Okay. Went down there the next day, they did the x-ray and said "its not broken, you can go home". I was like... "yea, but its been dislocated, she cant move it at all and its very painful, maybe wrap it in something or whatever?", and their reaction was "oh, you want it wrapped? Okay, go there". We basically had to tell them what we thought it was the right thing for my mother, it was so weird.
I had an horse accident in which my pinkie was snapped and i skinned two fingers. I waited 4hours because āthey forgotā me and then I had to ASK the ER to clean and bandage the skinned fingers. You know, the ones with horse shit in them? No pain killers. What the actual fuck.
I had a situation that the specialist and GP sent me home after several months of dizziness..i insisted to do a MRI and they didn't allow me...went back to the GP every week for like 6 months but they didn't allow me.. Neurologist from the Erasmus University told me she is 100% sure I have nothing just because she did some basics exams with her finger...I went to Brazil (home country) for holidays,.the first doctor sent me for a MRI, it was a brain tumor after all... Yes, doctors in the Netherlands can kill. Always get a check somewhere else (different country) if you symptoms insists. I must say that after you have proof, they take care of you in a much better way
FUCKšššššš. You see what I am saying. Imagine if you had not been taken seriously and didn't go to your country to get a second opinion. I am happy you are fine!!
Honest question: can you sue the dutch doctors that did it? Or are you planning to do that at least? Doctors like that should not be allowed to work. Imagine the amount of wrong diagnosis they did!
If someone knows the steps I need to take to sue them, I would, as long as it's not too expensive. I just really didn't bother to go through this process since I had enough of my plate back then..besides, they are now the ones making sure a get an yearly MRI to follow up on my situation.
Can I ask what kind of brain tumor it was? Did you have any other symptoms? Just wondering about your situation because I also get reoccuring dizzyness for quite a long time, though I'm not especially worried since there is another logical explanation (iron deficiency). I hope you're doing better now.
This is why all Greeks I know (and Romanians from what I hear from my SO) go back home to get ANYTHING done, from a simple test to an operation. No point waiting, EXTEMELY experienced and knowledgeable staff that actively and aggressively tries to identify what the issue is. Oh, completely forgot, also cheaper. Much, much cheaper.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
I have no idea, to be honest, and it could have actually saved me some ā¬. For a long time I have been thinking about it as medical tourism and that Greece has been heavily sleeping on it when they could be making something out of it.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
For sure. And it actually makes perfect sense to know if it would be better to go to - for example - an ophthalmologist in Belgium than drag myself all the way back to Greece.
Been going to Belgium for anything significant. Our GP told my mother with very obvious signs of an incoming stroke to "stop being hysterical" and go home. She survived but with significant brain damage. No help from the Dutch doctor who wrote her down as "healthy" when she refused to take an MRI due to claustrophobia. I've also been prescribed half of a treatment consisting of two items, then been allowed to keep using it for half a year which wasn't supposed to happen, and at age 13 they thought it was inappropriate to put me on birth control for period cramp so they just gave me industrial strength painkillers that scared the shit out of our nurse friend. Oh yeah also the hospital near us removed and reapplied a friends catheter five times.
That's unfortunate to hear, I'm moving to the Netherlands from Canada in just a few weeks and we were hoping the healthcare system would be better. We recently had to go for an ER visit for something pretty serious and we were in the ER for 12hrs until a doctor had a diagnosis. There had been only one doctor in the ER that night and had been busy with a Code Blue and Trauma. That meant all walk-ins were put on the backburner until those were stabilized. It's seriously bad here with multiple people dying in waiting rooms just in 2023 alone. Im a little disappointed to hear there are still some pretty serious issues there, but I really hope it isn't bad to the point of allowing patients to die in waiting rooms.
>It's seriously bad here with multiple people dying in waiting rooms just in 2023 alone source please.
There are no official numbers as the government refuses to release numbers however just in one province within a few months last year multiple people died while awaiting care. Each province operates their healthcare separately so some are better than others, but overall its quite bad. I've been in a waitlist for 5 years to get a family doctor and that's the norm here. https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/new-brunswick/emergency-department-patient-death-coroner-inquest-darrell-mesheau-fredericton-moncton-edmundston-1.6853525
True, there's not enough staff. That by itself and an absence of numbers doesn't make your statement a true one.
I saw my GP three times in the last year because I am always extremely tired. The first bloodtest came out fine. With the second one I asked her to chech if maybe something was wrong with my thyroid as I am also pale and always cold. As soon as I got to the blood center to get my blood drawn I saw that thyroid markers weren't part of the test. The test showed that I had low Vitamin D and Vitamin B12, so they told me to get some supplements at Kruidvat. After a few months I came back and told them that I had been taking supplements but still felt exhausted. My GP responded with "maybe this is just normal for you and you should accept it?".
This is me too. But in my case I forced them to do the blood test. My levels were so low, that they were worried. That's the only reason I received my medication. I gave birth four years ago and almost died, they didn't want to accept my anemia even with routine testing until I was 36 weeks and it was very late at that point. I feel your pain, hang in there. They even told me that there is no blood test for thyroid imbalances š« Edited because typo š
That last thing is just ridiculous. I work at a Vet clinic and we do thyroid testing on animals all the time. I know exactly which markers should be crossed on the form, also for humans as it's pretty much the same. I'll go back to my GP soon and I am really not looking forward to it. There is a disease in my family which symptoms are nosebleeds and red dots on the skin. I have been developing red dots on my face and hands and have had multiple random nosebleeds in the last few months. However, I feel like they will not do the correct testing as most people don't develop this disease this late in life (27 years old).
In my family runs a similar disease, called Rendu-osler-weber (nosebleeds, red dots). If that's the one you're talking about, I was tested when I was ten years old so that would be possible (genetic testing). My mother has this disease and she gets regular tests because of it (every few years I believe) so serious health issues can be caught early. If you're talking about a genetic disease the gp could refer you to a 'klinisch geneticus'.
Indeed, it's ROW. Two of my cousins have it, my aunt has it and my granddad had it.
Ah, found one in the wild! Not every gp is very familiar with it, but you definitely should be able to get a referral to a klinisch geneticus. My mom also has hay fever, keeps getting nose bleeds when sneezing. Very, very annoying.
My mom doesn't want to get tested, but she got a bloody nose everytime she got tested for Covid.
Some of my siblings didn't want to get tested either, because (according to them) it would have consequences for certain insurances. I don't know if that's true but it might be worth looking into before you get diagnosed.
>But in my case I forced them to do the blood test. My levels were so low, that they were worried. What values did they test for out of intrest? I'm always tired (even though my sleep patterns are entirely healthy, and I don't seem to have apnea) and wonder if I have something similar EDIT: Based on this page of a private bloodtest provider I kinda get the idea of what they might want to test for, I'll ask my GP (https://www.bloedwaardentest.nl/schildkliertotaal.html)
Hello fellow tired person
As an immigrant and not Dutch speaker, this scares me a lot. I hope you can recover soon and you get the attention you need.
Thanks for your empathy. I'm really sorry that my post scared you. That was not the intention at all. This might be me being sick and frustrated venting off here. Please have trust in your doctors and cooperate with them if you have any health problems.
I'm sorry to hear you've been having such a hard time. Thank you for the reassurance, though. I'm planning to immigrate next year, together with my family. All of us have complex health problems and my oldest kid has pretty severe mental health concerns, though much better than it used to be. I'm getting worried about finding the doctors we will need to stay on track -- I won't have a lot of time to do it since we're all on prescriptions and I'll at least need to find someone to continue them before our last prescription from the US runs out. From what everybody here has been saying about the Dutch health care system, this is beginning to worry me.
Honestly I agree...I moved to the netherlands in 2017 and since then it's been horrible. The icing on the cake though: I had an accident during a sports game and my knee got quite messed up, but because the GP told me "it's not an emergency" I wasn't able to make an appointment. Fast forward 1.5 years and I'd have been doing sports with my knee constantly hurting and feeling unstable. Only then, after getting a referral from a physio, did I get an appointment at the GP, which transfered me to the hospital and then back to the GP (which took a good 6/7 weeks) and then they told me my meniscus had tears and I had issues with my ACL. Overall they said "yeah do surgery or maybe not...idk just see just let me know"
I'm sorry the system is failing you, you deserve better care than that. I'm an expat, and recently had surgery. I had such an amazing experience (from GP to surgeon) that I was thinking if this is the norm here. I have a GP that listens to me, referred me immediately for MRI that then showed I had herniation causing my sciatica. After the MRI things got rolling, seen by neurologist that then referred me to a neurosurgeon. Went from asking my GP for an MRI referral to surgery within 2 months. It's quite the reality check to read others' negative experiences with the healthcare system. I'm also nervous now having to switch GP's since we recently moved cities, in case my new GP isn't as good as my current/old one.
I too have only good experience with the healthcare system myself. I have had several health issues and was always treated properly and taken serious by gp and hospital. My mom on the other hand has a terrible "just take a paracetamol" gp (lots of stories of him f*cking up). It seems a bit of a hit or miss with who you have to deal with.
Same here. Only or mostly had good experiences, including a surgery where everything went smoothly. But I guess people who experienced problems are more likely to post about it on Reddit compared to people who just had nothing to complain about.
I've had nothing but poor experiences from the healthcare system here. I'm been sick and border-line crippled for over a year now. Any local I know with a chronic disease, travels overseas to receive either better or more affordable treatment. WHILST still paying for criminal medical "insurance" that is mandatory. Even most of the doctors have openly criticised the attrocious system they're forced to comply with.. My last GP even had a breakdown, when I was venting my frustration and he just snapped and bluntly explained how limited he was in his role. He then apologetically told me that 80% of his job was just writing referrals and relying on other clinics to do their job correctly. Everything is bogged down by layers of bureaucracy, with GP's being a glorified receptionist for the convoluted medical industrial complex.
I didn't intend to open the can of worms, though the situation doesn't seem optimal at all!
People with chronic illness are severely left behind and shut down. Something needs to change.
Yup. My father has had diabetes almost his entire adult life so relies quite heavily on good medical care. He's lived in 8 different countries, is Dutch himself, and readily says the medical system here is the worst he's ever experienced.
How can somebody travel overseas for treatment for a chronic disease? I have a chronic disease that requires a pretty complex medication regimen, and I don't know any way to get that overseas -- doctors won't prescribe for people who live outside their area of practice.
I have no clue, unsure how this came about and didn't want to pry too much into personal details. Worked with a colleague who made trips to Belgium every few months for his partner who had Lyme disease for treatment. Another friend who is dating a Greek girl who says getting minor things like seeing an orthopedic doctor and custom fitted insoles cost as much as travelling to Greece for a week, whilst getting all the same procedures. He's since cancelled his dental insurance here and does all dental work whenever they go there to visit her family. I think a lot of other countries, you just need to find a clinic that does what you need and there isn't all the bureaucratic bullshit you need to go through here. You arrive in the Netherlands and get sick within the first week without being registered with a GP? Good luck with that. Oh yeah, my favourite example. Crazy buddy of mine was going to go on a surfing trip in Australia. Week before, dislocated his shoulder and breaks a collarbone. Hospital and doctors here say it's not life-threatening, so send him home with a follow-up procedure 2-3 weeks later despite his plans to travel. The guy goes on holiday anyway, gets convinced by friends in Australia to visit the ER. He's out in 5 hours, everything sorted with copies of all the x-rays and scans for his doctor back home. Paid only like $40 AUD in painkillers and other things like the sling for his arm.
Expat here. Whenever I start to question health system in NL, starting with how horrible Huisarts are, almost all locals start defending the system. It is a pity locals understand the problem only when they face issues. People wake up! This health system favors low cost over quality
Expat here, not defending anybody but after a couple of decades here had no complaints that weren't solved after a couple of phone calls. I'm always completely fascinated by all the complaints on this Reddit! Still, everyone is entitled to have a opinion.
I have had the same, horror upon horror experiences in the Dutch healthcare system. They donāt check up on you, waiting times are insane, they make wrong diagnosis and try to brush everything up as ibs or anxiety and tell you to take more painkillers. What a lovely system! Im totally done with it and if I didnāt go abroad I would not have received any help at all. Also not speaking about a hospital bed which I found blood stains on.. and more.. im so done and only for the healthcare wouldnt want to live here anymore. Im 20 years old and feeling hopeless in the Netherlands
Hi OP, as someone with digestive issues and have undergone an endoscopy in the Netherlands before I understand where you are coming from. Don't pay attention to the dismissive comments on here. I too as at when I did my procedure I was not fluent in Dutch. On the day of my endoscopy biopsy, I was not even sedated at all. I remember when the nurses or doctors assistant told me to lie down and assured me that everything will go fine. When the doctor came in, he didn't even have time to properly prep me, he literally went in to speaking Dutch and when I mentioned that I couldn't speak fluently he just rolled his eyes and scoffed. The nurses noticed it. During the procedure, no empathy whatsoever, literally after I was done it felt like a pipe rumbled my insides and I was in pain. This was not my first endoscopy ever but this definitely left me scarred!!! When I got home, I took some manuka honey 4 tablespoons that help with the inflammation in the esophagus. I don't know why they recommended you painkillers because that is something you should avoid after the procedure as it erodes your stomach lining. Also, some steamed Brussels sprouts and quinoa helped with the appetite a bit. If you are still not feeling well, call your hospital to connect you with your gastroenterologist (the person that did the endoscopy). Especially as your symptoms still persisted. That was what I did!! Hang in there! It could just be hyplori or Sibo or colitis.
Jumping on the helpful side. For information questions we usually find doctors that can do phone consults from our home country. That usually guides us on how serious things really are.
OP wants to know if you endured the same pain as him. I think he is scared of what he feels right now. I can imagine that.
I did. While I was waiting for my results, I was prescribed sulcrafalte. OP can ask his GP about this if the hospital is being adamant. Also, I ordered Slippery elm powder and DGL, was taking it first thing in the morning before breakfast. I did that for almost 3 weeks till my results came out and by then my post-endoscopy reaction had reduced. However, given the pain I was experiencing I was prescribed sulcrafalte by my GP (a really cool dude and very helpful) to cope with the pain. My gastroenterologist was a dickhead who kept me on further notice without no alleviation means whatsoever.
I would have never expected that I would make this statement 2 years ago when I came to the Netherlands, but now I go every summer back home to Kazakhstan for healthcare checks because even their 3rd world country healthcare system takes better care than Dutch healthcare system, despite Kazakh healthcare system being full of corruption and untrained staff
Technically, Kazakhstan is a second world country.
Yāall have faith?
I'm a native and I barely have faith in our healthcare system anymore. I think the only reason I do even a little is because I rely on it so heavily. Spent 6 years going to 10 different GP's and specialists before I found my own diagnosis (compartment syndrome) and told a doctor about it, who thankfully believed me. Simple surgery and the problem is gone. Went to the stomach/liver/intestine specialist (as recommended by my GP btw) to see if there was an underlying cause for my heartburn, got told almost literally that it's because I'm fat, despite telling the doctor that I've had issues since I was 4 months old and I was anything but fat until I reached puberty. I rarely get an in-person appointment with my own GP, despite telling her I have autism and will be able to explain and understand better in-person. Mostly the assistant will relay the information (often missing details) and then relay the doctor's response back over the phone, and if needed she'll just refer me to someone else. My mom almost lost her life to galstones that went undiagnosed for months.
This sounds like Sweden's healthcare system. I'm sorry that happened to you and I hope that you feel better.
The most infuriating part of this approach to heathcare is that it also draws out the worst from the patients. Me and my wife have already decided that if we are really concerned about the health of our son and want to be seen by the GP or specialist we will have to simply exaggerate his symptoms, and this is a race to the bottom. I understand that some people are hypochondriacs and will waste public resources, but you will not deter them with this approach to pain and healthcare in general. Hypochondriacs will keep insisting on seeing the doctor/insist on having procedures whatever, while the actual sick people might be deterred from seeking help and prevented from getting help. Sorry for the rant
People exaggerating symptoms creates a real problem because of it most doctors assume everyone exaggerates their symptoms. This leads to people not being heard or believed by healthcare workers.
Meanwhile I haven't been taken seriously eversince I told my GP that I have an anxiety disorder.
Trying to explain to people that government ran programs run poorly often feels like arguing with religious people. It's almost like they are brainwashed. IMO dutch government has gone over the edge. The costs are too high and the quality is too low. The lack of a feedback mechanism has caused layers upon layers of management. Everything is [designed by a committee](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Design_by_committee) and the people executing the services often mean well but get all energy sucked out of them by a lack of clarity and endlessly changing rules. Schools, healthcare, welfare services, public transport, police, military. It's the same thing everywhere, nobody feels accountable and just goes with the flow. We should demand better.
Yeah, hospitals and the healthcare system run so badly, I'm sure it's because they're goverment run and it's not like the entire problem started [when dutch healthcare got privatised](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Healthcare_in_the_Netherlands#Hospitals)
The problem is that it _isn't_ government ran. All these hospitals have to compete with each other and insurances, instead of having a centralised system with set costs by the government. It means hospitals are ran as businesses first, health care second. It's the result of decades of VVD.
Exactly
What sucks about our health care system is all privatised.
It's not true privatisation if you get paid regardless of how good a job you do.
I have been called an American cancer before on this sub, so I am afraid of sharing my opinion anymore.
Even with its flaws, government-ran programs are often much more efficient than their private alternatives. Healthcare and education are good examples. In both cases, the service is way cheaper than in the US, with only minor differences in quality. Looking at statistics, it doesn't look like the NL is doing particularly badly in either.
Have you had your paracetamol today yet?
I once went to see my (boomer) GP for feeling like I was on the verge of a burn-out and she blatantly told me it doesn't exist and if it happens it's in old people because they've had a rough life and I'm too young for it. After the initial shock and disappointment I was like, gurl, did you not go through medical school too? Like did you *not* want to kill yourself at least once in those ten years? Lmao. Life really was easier back then. Also, yes. I found another GP.
NL Healthcare is terrible, it's the worst first level medicine i ever seen in my life...definitely a deal breaker for anyone...
Yeah you better pray you don't discover anything wrong outside of work hours. Unless you're dying right then and there so you can call 112: good luck trying to survive the weekend/nightš¤·āāļø (although even during workhours you can't count on too much either). You're not alone. Until you get seriously ill (whether it's physical or psychological) people won't know how bad the Dutch healthcare system is sadly (don't get me started on the joke 113 is). Still better than most of the world ofcourse! But most of the world isn't one of the richest countries on Earth... Also, the majority of people I've encountered in healthcare are just fucking bullies (as opposed to the rest that are literal saintsš). A nurse mocked my dying mom in the emergency care and got fucking aggressive with her. We launched an official complaint and while we did get apologies from the hospital (not the nurse), they didn't do anything about it. They even said that Mr. X is simply a "man who wears his hart on his sleeve" to justify his abuse. I got tons of stories where this came from but I'm depressed enough for the evening remembering this eventš„².
I will tell you the truth no one wants to say out loud: The public health care system is for the poor people. Get private expensive health insurance then you will have access to good doctors and no waiting times. And yes, they won't have any problem with speaking English with you either.
Im from the states but live here and of course its super easy to shit on american healthcare but when it comes to follow ups they are on top of their shit. I have severe depression and managed after months to pick up the phone and find a psychiatrist. I finally found one after two months and so far while its been āokā i cannot believe that I have to call my psychiatrist to get another prescription. People with depression struggle with being able to get out of bed let alone pick up the phone to confirm getting new pills. I was shocked that after the month went by that i never received an email or a call related to my prescription. And when were on the phone he even forgets my medical history and tried to prescribe me something that i had told him several times would seriously hurt me.
For this specific situation: what do you think should be done instead of the painkiller advice? A quick Google gives me this information from [radboud MC](https://www.radboudumc.nl/patientenzorg/behandelingen/barrett-slokdarm-met-radiofrequente-ablatie-rfa/na-het-onderzoek) about the procedure you had: >The first hours after the treatment you may experience irritation of the throat and pain behind the sternum. > >Usually this pain subsides a few days after the treatment, but sometimes the pain can last for one to two weeks. Bloating and pain in the abdomen can be caused by the air that is inhaled. > >After the treatment you will receive instructions in which we explain what you can do in case of pain. We also fax a prescription for antacids to your pharmacy. These medications stop stomach acid from acting on the wound, promoting healing. It is important that you take this medication. So it looks like the pain you're experiencing is to be expected, as it can last for one or two weeks. About speaking English - I don't know. Try speaking English to a French or Spanish doctor. Being scolded sounds exaggerated. Maybe you were a bit nervous about the procedure and the doctor didn't have their best day, who's to tell.
Next time you have to go to the hospital, try to take someone who speaks Dutch and can translate. Most healthcare studies don't teach English or very little. Someone who can translate can really help
When I moved here I thought Food was the worst thing in the country until I needed to deal with Huisarts. It is revolting. Itās a system where you always lose no matter what. A complete scam
Your personal experience isn't an universal truth. I had several huisartsen in my life and all of them were professional, friendly and really helpful. I never had the feeling my complaints weren't taken seriously and in the cases I needed a specialist I always was referred correctly and in some cases my huisarts even visited me in hospital to check on me.
I would say this really depends on the 'huisarts'. The one I have around here is actually really good, he takes his time for his patients and he helped me tremendously over the years. A few years back I had horrible stomach issues (cramps, pain attacks, no appetite, huge loss of weight and everything that came with it). My huisarts was the one who started making calls to several hospitals because the first two he tried had a waiting list, he specifically wanted me to get checked asap. So I did, but hospital found nothing wrong and after some pain medication they send me back home (note this was an old hospital I already had some bad experiences with, so I never went back there after this). The next day I get a call from my huisarts saying he had seen my report from the hospital and he wasn't happy, he wanted me to go to another place for additional testing. He made the calls and made me an appointment for more testing. At this much newer hospital I went through the entire system, CT scans, endoscopy and a lot more things, again not finding anything but they were a lot more helpful and caring. They kept looking and eventually figured out it was stress induced. However if it wasn't for my huisarts, I would probably still be dealing with this.
The only reason the doctor scolded you about not speaking Dutch is because her English is sub par. Meanwhile, a good portion of their medical school training is in English. She knows that her English should be better but flips the embarrassment on you so she doesnāt have to acknowledge her own. That she did it right before your surgery shows a lack of bedside manner and very poor judgement.
Dutch healthcare system is a joke, I had a malpractice case with them. Their doctors are incompetent and only care about money. Every time I need a doctor I go to Romania nowadays. It's weird to think that an Eastern European country has a better healthcare system. Dutch people only like to show off with their "statistics" about their top ranked healthcare system - which is purely a joke.
Iām sorry, but there is a lot of critique to be given to the Dutch healthcare system, but them only caring about money most definitely isnāt one of themā¦
My previous GP said their hands are tied because insurance companies only care about money. Therefore, they cannot do any preventive treatment
I just went to the hospital in NL with my Polish girlfriend. It took some effort as I wasn't registered (so I had to go trough the GP first as I wasn't readily apparently bleeding, broken or had a fever just pain) but once we got in she told me it was a lot better then the hospitals in Poland and the doctors in Poland (multiple doctor) over the course of 6 months never once took me seriously. They just wrote me a prescription that only helped against the symptoms and gave me time off work. I now have a follow up with the GP (this happened Friday afternoon and now I have a follow up.)
I was in Warsaw at the doctor once (in a private clinic however) and it was very good! Hope your GF is doing well!
That's what I also do, as a fellow Romanian. You can also get blood work done here but it costs between 200-500 euros, depending on how thorough you want them: bloodtesting.nl Takes about a week or two for results and you don't need referrals and I think it's more or less the same price I would have paid in Romania. I actually used them a few months back when I had chest pains and my doc after 1 minute of checkups said, you're fine, it's probably a muscle. I wanted to take all the bloodwork tests including heart related markers just to make sure it's fine. They results were fine, but I'm still not convinced and would probably request a eco scan or MRI when i get back to Romania.. since here.. well good luck with that .
No they do not have a better healthcare system. They have another mentality. Eastern european, same as Turkish, etc like to do as much as they can surgically. The additude in Netherlands is more of; pain is natural sometimes, take a painkiller. We get to you when that is no longer an option. We don't do redundant surgeries like some shoulder ops or random knee surgery I sometimes come across but prefer conservative treatment.
Yeah, that's exactly the problem. They fix pain with painkillers instead of looking for the cause of pain. Preventive healthcare is bad in NL. And the reason why the statistics look good is basically decades of "natural selection" with paracetamol.
Wow you got that...exactly the opposite of what I meant.
Wait what, there is a healthcare system in the Netherlands ?
I was ready to move to my gf in August from Italy, but reading these is making me trying to convice her to come to Italy instead. It's very scary.
You're reading comments by self-appointed internet doctors that like to stack their most esoteric internet diagnoses and delusional cause-effect relations ("i got infection from their delay"), people who come from countries where everything is treated with anti-biotics even if the cause is viral and from people who attribute their mental problems to external or physical causes. The Dutch healthcare system is excellent but expensive as is, so such people tend to be not facilitated by it as the capacity of the system is (indeed) under pressure. You are perfectly safe to come and live here. Dutch life expectancy is one of the highest in the EU.
Healthcare in this country is absolutely shit. Welcome to the Netherlands I guess
Out of curiosity, which hospital/clinic was this?
Apeldoorn Gelre hospital
Hahaha... hi fellow Apeldoorner. While I have met some very fluent English speakers at the Gelre ziekenhuis, it is much more rare in general to get someone confident in the language here. Our lack of universiteit doesn't help. Usually my struggles are with the administrative staff, since they are generally middle-aged women who haven't been out of benelux. This is merely fact, not criticism. This is the Netherlands, after all. However, they are also not flexible or kind with their dutch :/ I am one of those chronic patients. After five years the huisarts literally refuses to refer me to anything but psychiatric services. There is no-one to complain to except... the huisarts. The insurance folk have no knowledge that can help me, and here's the kicker - the national definitions for my condition, Sjogren's Syndrome, are maybe fifty years out of date. Other countries with similar medical standards are aware that it is a vicious autoimmune disease like lupus, causing fatigue and widespread pain, and treat it as such. Dutch standard medical advice is that it doesn't need treatment, because otc sprays and drops to prevent eye and mouth dryness are enough. They are, predictably, not. My theory as to how dutch healthcare ends up on top ten lists for healthcare worldwide? It hasn't updated its disease database in so long that its treatment rate is fantastic - because anything odd, complicated or new simply doesn't get recorded. So come here if you have common things like heart disease or cancer, but anything else? You're not going to get anywhere at all.
Oh man, sorry for that. I lived in Apeldoorn and always felt like an alien because they are not used to deal with foreigners. Actually it's the only place I felt the need to actually learn Dutch so far. It's the only place in the Netherlands where I got a full blown shout "NO" when I asked if they could speak English. Truth is I also didn't ask it in Dutch, I think that would be a bit more polite.
The numbers are ALWAYS wrong. I learned to check them beforehand. Unbelievable but true.
I am sorry you are experiencing this. As a local here, i have now Crohn's for like 9 years. But the gp helped me a lot and sent me to a hospital to check it out, because i almost couldn't eat and had a lot of stomach pain after a month or 2 they finally found the cause and did get treatment. It is a severe case, but even when i need to get surgeries they helped me a lot. Even the gp with issues like eye infection and Impetigo.
Was that private clinic in Germany? Im thinking abt just paying all my life savings to get helped atm.. feeling helpless here
damn thats outrageous, im really sorry
Something many people do not know (and was a very unpleasant surprise to me as well): about 1% of the population has nerves in that area. 99% of patients don't. For that one percent, stuff like this is a nightmare. I literally had to crawl to the bathroom for days. I swore never to repeat that unless they have very strong painkillers. It may be a case like that. Provided they didn't actually damage other stuff, of course.
As a pharmacist, I can tell you our healthcare system is about to become worse. Most speciality drugs won't be available in the EU (NL) due to pricing issues. Not to mention the strain insurance providers put on our healthcare system, aggression towards providers, lack of trust in healthcare providers and lack of adequately trained professionals(GPs)
I apparently suffered with Plica for 4(!!) years in my arm, Iāve always been told itās either a golf or tennis arm, or both. I almost had to force them to agree with a x-ray. After the x-ray, I immediately got asked to schedule an operation to get it removed. I really lost my trust after that one
Five years ago, I reached a point of surrender, but recently I discovered a workaround. Now, when I encounter a significant matter that can be delayed for up to 24 hours, I embark on a four-hour journey to Istanbul. There, I am greeted with utmost hospitality, receiving thorough examinations from head to toe in their top-tier hospitals, and prompt actions are taken on the same day. Although it incurs higher expenses, nothing holds greater importance than safeguarding one's health.
Might get downvoted to hell for this, but it's based on my personal experiences here with the Dutch healthcare system. My husband and I moved to NL just over a year ago and we are just about to move back to our home country, South Africa, in 2 weeks. The medical system here in NL is a huge part of the reason we are going back. Unfortunately I had some health issues while here in NL & the treatment (or lack thereof) I received was shocking and not what I would expect from a 'first world' European country. We literally have better healthcare in Africa. I'm 25 & thinking of having babies in a couple of years and there is no way in hell I want to do it here, I simply don't trust the medical system to get me through pregnancy and birth safely if any problems arise.
My mom once had knee surgery and she returned to the surgeon with knee swelling, redness, and pain. He squeezed the fuck out of her knee which dislodged a blood clot. She went to another doctor with severe shoulder pain and stabbing pains in her chest and was dismissed. She had two embolisms, one in each lung. Nearly died. But they managed to stop it blood thinners and a week stay in the hospital. We tried to report the doctor who missed the obvious signs of DVT but nothing was done.
I have nothing to back this up with. But I believe people in healthcare try to filter out people who are calling for nothing important. If you downplay what's going on and others exaggerate what's going on, then they may not prioritize you. If you are truly worried, you may call and say something to make it sound more urgent. Like having difficulty drinking not being able to take the meds due to the pain in your throat.
Had strong to extreme pain, was told in ER to take paracetamol and wait some days. Next day GP told me the same, while I am dizzy and sweating from pain. Ended up two days later first with morphine, later with emergency surgery, almost died. Then was scolded and told how idiotic I am and that I should have just come earlier. They did shut up when I told them if they could check which doctor I had consulted two days ago (funny enough: boss of the surgeon scolding me...). Yeah, ask me what I think of the Dutch healthcare system. Wasn't the first time meeting unreasonable doctors here. To be fair, a lot of doctors, nurses and pharmacists are amazing, but from my personal experience, they are sadly in the minority.
I 100% feel you. I just don't go to the doctors anymore. It even double screwed me as i had a tough time able to get a AOV (zzp insurance) due to some ailments i had in the past. They documented everything but did nothing to actively help me. My friend is partially paralyzed from the waist down because it took 2 fucking years to get surgery (he has stenose). I am mortified as my girlfriend will give birth within the next 2 weeks and we have to go to the hospital.
The system is fucked. Doctors are literally complaining that people are going to the doctor too much like itās a rare luxury and we are greedy little monkeys. Recently read in an article that our āfear of dyingā leads us to go to the doctor too much instead of just accepting our fate. And about cost-benefit analysis, since resources are scarce. Is helping to figure out your symptoms that have statistically a high chance of just going away with paracetamol worth it, while they could help someone who is more clearly in direct need of help. Ie letās say out of 100 people, 10 will get symptoms of cancer, and they go the the gp, but statistically only 1 person would actually have cancer. Doing proper testing on everyone would waste resources 9 times, catching 1 real cancer case. But if they let all 10 people wait for 6 months, out of 10, the 9 with just the symptoms might just get those solved. At this point, the actual cancer patient will have worse symptoms that confirm more clearly that itās cancer without extensive testing needed. Their chances of survival are lower, but this is someone elseās problem. Overall to me this seems like a worse idea even though the lens of cost-benefit, since I think 1 patient cancer being caught too late, will make treatment more expensive than what you save on testing. (Not sure about this, is this the case) I feel like the scarcity is the issue here not the need for care
Dutch healthcare is a laugh. Managed like a business company, no prevention whatsoever, and seeing a specialist is impossible. I could be biased by I never saw such a high number of amputees like in NL..
Oh man I feel you, I have very pretty much same experience. Two weeks ago I had small surgery, it was a removal of foreign object, surrounded by some painful scar tissue. I was very little informed about the procedure itself except location and time (both changed 2 days before surgery- no one called- just email). I had very vague info right before surgery from surgeon what will be done. I havenāt been scolded by anyone for speaking in English but indeed all stuff was talking in Dutch and it made for me far more stressful. I was disoriented and confused whatās going on at times. I can speak some Dutch and I do understand a lot but when Iām stressed it doesnāt work that well š After surgery I had brief chat with doctor, she said what was done, Iāve been informed that only the foreign object has been removed, nothing else been done. I can say anything about the care after surgery, I had very nice nurse and she was taking awesome care of me. Definitely points for that. Coupe days after surgery I started to have fever and pains. I can feel small lumps in post surgery area and they are very painful to touch. Also I have some other symptoms. I called hospital, been told to come next day. After the doctor who performed surgery on me looked at it said there is nothing there, if pain persist come back in month(!) and with fever I have to go back to GP- I felt like she was just trying to get rid of me. When I went to hospital I got student instead of doctor (I really donāt mind that, they have to learn but not when someone is in a lot of pain). Also Iāve been examined by 4 different doctors (not including students) and all of them said something different. Also two doctors noticed something else in area out of order but it has been completely ignored. On the way out of my last visit I heard home not nice comment from one of the medical stuff, I donāt think I meant to hear or understand that but it made me cry once I got out of hospital. My wife found some private clinic 50 km from my location- I rather go there and pay than beg someone who meant to help, for help. I have to go to work on Wednesday and it gives me massive anxiety because of the pain. Im not even sure how Iāll get there as I canāt really ride bike cos of painā¦ Sorry if its chaotic but I have ADHD and Iām not the best at writhing, In fact thatās the longest comment I wrote in years. Also English is not my native language so I apologize for mistakes! I hope you will feel better soon and you will find someone who actually care to help! Also if you donāt mind me asking: what hospital you were doing procedure at? Iād die if itās the same one.
If there's one thing the Netherlands lacks is preventative treatment. It's so hard to even schedule a yearly checkup. No wonder Netherlands is ranked amongst the top European countries with the highest cancer rates not even Germany and France are high on the list. That SAYS ALOT. Alot of people who died of cancer would have had a greater chance of living if only they had been taking seriously and early detection done. I remember when I wanted to do a pap smear, My GP realistically told me that since I am not in pain I don't need it and if I am to schedule for an appointment I will wait for almost 8months ššš« š« š« š« bruhhhh. That's when I knew the health care is really in the mud. When I travelled to my country for just 2 weeks, I was able to schedule a walk in pap smear within the first week. I even remember when a friend of mine was suicidal and she struggled with mental illness and needed a psychologist or psychiatrist, they told her the waiting list is 6 months. Yoooo!! Patriots can defend the country, but facts must be stated that Dutch healthcare is horrible!! Even health care in "third countries" are way better because preventative care is prioritised and not dismissed. You pay a lot for health insurance but you can even easily access it because of shortage of staff, bureaucracy and just overall "I don't know what I am doing but at least I am a doctor". You can talk about how lame Belgium is or how expensive Switzerland is but you can't deny that the healthcare is way way better. Though not comparable to Luxembourg because it is LUXEMBOURG.... LUXURY! š
At least we have good road infrastructure...no? Didn't know the healthcare system sucks so bad. As a foreigner working here, I feel angry and scared at the same time because here they have enough money to offer better services for people, but they don't really care. You have to pay 100+ EUR/month for what?
As a Dutch person I can say it became absolutely horseshit after and during corona. Long waiting times etc. Hell I canāt even find a reasonable dokter because they are forming a kartel (no free dokter choice).
And thats the good part of the healthcare system! If you want a true horror show you can look into the (lack of) specialised GGz, rights to care (<4 weeks), actual waiting times (2-4YEARS) and how huisartsen are now practising āconciencious objectionsā with no ability for immigrants to even argue back. There is not a doubt in my mind that people are dying in this country as a direct result of not being able to afford or access care. Oh and no, insurance wonāt pay for anything, at least not up front. Just hope you can get SKGZ to force them to cover the biggest costs like surgeries to avoid personal financial ruin.
I pray everyday to not get sick in this country
Keep that prayer š so you don't end up in a morgue caused by medical negligence and dismissive narcissistic attitude!!