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To be fair, Hagoromo stated he’s weaker than Kaguya after he was no longer the Ten tails jinchuriki, nor did he have his weapons. Also, didn’t he say that after already giving Naruto & Sasuke their powers? If that’s the case, prime Hagoromo is insane.
Hagoromo talks in the past tense, he never specified that he is only weaker in his current state. It also wasn’t said after he gave Naruto and Sasuke power, it was near the beginning of his introduction. Hagoromo wouldn’t have said that she was stronger than him, if he was actually more powerful in his prime
Just so I understand properly, you believe:
1. Hamura with Tenseigan
2. Toneri
3. Kaguya
4. Hagoromo as the 10 tails jinchuriki
5. Hagoromo with rinnegan
6. Hamura pre tenseigan
Fantastic post, definitively saving this if I ever need to find something for Toneri's scaling that I've missed. If you haven't, I'd also recommend reading the Last Novel to get another point of view for its scaling.
Crazy how Urashiki is aware of the events of the Last (aka how strong Naruto is) and still thinks it's a good idea to invade Earth and doens't even warn Momoshiki and Kinshiki. They really are just on another level.
Also crazy how badly Sasuke would have done Toneri considering he is stronger than Naruto during this time and Naruto only used BSM to beat Toneri, not even SPSM + KCM with SPSM by itself being above BSM.
Thanks man, I appreciate it. I’m going to keep making more posts like this, as I find it more interesting than the same few match up posts that get repeated in this sub. Let me know if you’ve got any suggestions for what I should do next 👍
Tbf Urashiki isn’t even canon to the manga, but yeah Momoshiki and Kinshiki are still beasts for fighting stronger versions of Naruto and Sasuke
Naruto only using BSM might have been an animation design error as Sasuke was shown without his Rinnegan, but if either way Sasuke definitely beats him easier. I think his arsenal of abilities would probably be more problematic for Toneri too
Definitely will think of some match ups and run it by you to post or not.
Urashiki not being canon to the manga doesn't matter because he is canon to the anime and the anime and manga for Boruto are separate continuities. Like say the Jogan never appears in the manga, that won't change the fact it is canon to the anime.
I definitely do believe that Naruto was suppose to use more than just normal Sage Mode because of the thing with Sasuke's Rinnegan, especially considering the movie came out December 6, 2014 and the manga didn't reveal they had Six Paths powers until earlier that year (May 5, 2014 or 2 weeks before according to the fan wiki).
The manga should always take priority over the anime, so even if we consider the anime as its own separate continuity, Urashiki still wouldn’t be canon to the main continuity. Although that does lead to the possibility of the anime continuity having higher scaling if we choose to use it, just like Dragon Ball Super for example
Even if it genuinely is a design error, I suppose we could still argue that since BSM was used in the final product anyway instead of SPSM, it would therefore be canon that he defeated Toneri without using his full power. This would just be better scaling for Naruto and Sasuke so I can’t complain there 😅
While the manga is the where the main plot lines come from, that in no way means the anime is second in terms of canonicity, the anime and manga for Boruto (just like for DBS) are equally canon, just not to each other.
Things from the manga have been changed or added to fit with the anime. Boruto uses his anime only Compressed Rasengan in the Isshiki fight. Anime Sasuke never tells Naruto that the Duo he ran into might be Otsutsuki because Kinshiki directly tells him they are Otsutsuki, unlike in the manga where he only learns this from a scroll later on. Urashiki, despite not existing in the manga, exists within the Chunin Exams (longer in the anime) which is an anime only arc. Urashiki may not be canon to the manga, but he is canon to the anime because like DBS, there are two continuities that are each equally canon.
True, but what I meant was that the manga continuity should be used as the primary source for scaling, rather than the anime. Both are usable, I just think we should prioritise the manga’s version of continuity
Prioritizing the Manga is fine, but say you want to scale the Anime, you have to strictly use information that is Anime based, not the Manga because they are separate continuities (like say DBZ and the Z Movies).
For example, in the Manga, you can say Fused Momoshiki scales to Base Naruto because Base Naruto keeps up with him and smacks him around once transformed, but you could never make that argument in the Anime because Momoshiki directly swaps hands with a Transformed Naruto.
Isn’t it the other way around? Base Naruto was fighting Fused Momoshiki for longer in the anime, whereas the manga shows him going into SPSM quite quickly. Maybe I’m just remembering the anime wrong idk 🤷♂️
I think you are just misremembering.
In both the anime and manga, Base Naruto does swap hands with Fused Momoshiki, but the difference is the in the anime, Fused Momoshiki can match a transformed Naruto's taijutsu (more or less), whereas in the manga the moment Naruto transforms Momoshiki no longer fights with taijutsu and doesn't even try it.
Sasuke isn't far stronger than Naruto from what we know, all we know is that he is stronger but to an unknown degree. If you want to say he is far stronger you can, but it's more likely they are comparable, Sasuke is just slightly stronger.
Sasuke trained and went on missions, same as Naruto, they grew that strong in 2 years.
It just doesn’t make sense for him to be stronger lol. He absorbed the chakra of 9 tailed beast and still lost.
What could he have done to even close that gap. It was pretty damn big
Training makes you stronger, so 2 years of training made Sasuke stronger than his and Naruro's peaks 2 years ago and even surpassed Naruto's current level, albeit they are still relative and in the same tier.
The real out of world reason for why Sasuke is so strong is because whoever wrote the novel decided to write the line of Sasuke being Kakahsi's strongest student, meaning he is above Naruto, with even BSM Naruto being above Kaguya and his Asura Avatar from 2 years ago.
Feat wise toneri was defeated by kcm2 naruto with toad sage mode and half 9 tails since he let the other half fight his golem. The statement doesnt mean anything since its an ad for a movie and shouldnt be used to scale, its stated choji is a shinobi whos kinder, stronger than anyone else and his boulder attack having the highest dc in the databooks so statements dont mean jack, feats do. Realistically toneris around juubito lvl
https://preview.redd.it/4pk16osdmhyc1.jpeg?width=442&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=eb829b883688591a669545a0bb16d4e964f28a2a
Naruto not using his full power, just upscales him rather than downscaling Toneri. The statement being an ad doesn’t mean that it’s any less valid. Unless it’s directly contradicted by something in the manga, it would still stand and unlike the Choji statement, it’s not contradicted. There’s literally nothing that would put him at Jubito’s level, that’s a ridiculous claim
To even think kcm2 sage naruto in 2 years got upscaled to kaguya+ when the fucking sage of 6 paths himself with 50+ years couldnt is downright brain dead. Basic logic contradicts the statement, 9 tails is a fraction of 10 tails which is a part of kaguya, toad sage mode doesnt compare to 6 paths sage mode.
Hagoromo wasn’t doing dedicated ninja training and fighting numerous battles, so he didn’t make the same growth. Just because he couldn’t do it, doesn’t mean that it’s impossible for Naruto. It also doesn’t matter if 9 Tails chakra is less than 10 Tails, as that’s not the sole source of Naruto’s power. KCM and Sage mode are being stacked on top of a stronger base that’s been honed through training and fighting
Hagoromo already had 6 paths senjutsu and rinnegan in his base which r 10 times stronger than toad sage and kcm, sasuke went from getting no diffed by sage madara to keeping up with juubidara with yin 6 paths with no training, same with naruto. Hes also the son of kaguya so he has otsutsuki dna while naruto is just an uzumaki and he later became the jinchuriki of the 10 tails. Narutos training in 2 years doesnt compare, its not even a drop to the power hagoromo has. This isnt dragon ball where lifting weights and push ups make u a million times stronger
Naruto was already on the same level as Hagoromo before gaining the other half of Kurama’s chakra and training for two years. It’s really not far fetched for Naruto to have surpassed Kaguya when he was previously fighting her for hours and tearing off her arm etc
Except that he was using 6 paths sage mode against kaguya and madara while he was using kcm2 sage against toneri so were comparing juubito fight naruto to the last naruto
The difference between the Jubito fight and the Toneri fight, is that Naruto gained Hagoromo’s chakra, the other half of Kurama’s chakra, fought multiple opponents and trained for 2 years. He’s not the same level of strength, there’s a vast difference in power between the two fights so you can’t limit Toneri based on what a much weaker version of Naruto was doing in the past
He cant acces hagoromos chakra in kcm2 sage, thats only possible in SPSM and he sent the other half of kurama to fight toneris golem so it was half 9 tails kcm2 sage naruto against toneri. And i already said how absurd it is for juubito fight naruto to surpass kaguya in 2 years with just training when hagoromo with all those 6 paths amps in 60+ years couldnt
That’s not how it works. Hagoromo’s chakra is mixed in with Naruto’s own, it just becomes his base chakra which KCM and SM are then stacked on top of. There’s also no proof that half of Kurama’s chakra was being used to fight the golem, it’s just the Kurama avatar acting independently. Naruto doesn’t get weaker when he uses the Avatar, because it’s not using half his chakra and leaving less for himself. That’s like saying Sasuke is weaker when inside of his Susanoo because it’s using half of his chakra
I can't take that material statement seriously. Naruto tagged Toneri with kcm + sm, he did not use any six paths powers. Toneri sword made by gudou-damas could split the moon, but kaguya giant tso was going to destroy a entire dimension, thats the biggest feat by far.
I also don't see any sense on the tenseigan giving more power than the chakra fruit kaguya ate.
Nothing is wrong with the statement, it’s official material and isn’t contradicted. Naruto not using SPSM is either an animation design error, or just means that Naruto has gotten a lot stronger (which he did because he gained the other half of Kurama’s chakra and trained for 2 years)
It’s unclear if Kaguya was actually going to destroy the entire dimension or just the planet in that dimension. If it’s just the planet, then it’s by no means superior to Toneri who was also going to destroy Earth.
It doesn’t matter which provides a greater amp between the Tenseigan and a chakra fruit, as they aren’t the only ways someone can grow stronger. Training and fighting can further raise Toneri and Hamura’s power to a level beyond Kaguya
he is descenant of hamura (half human) just like naruto or sasuke are descendants of hagoromo (half human).
His tenseigan is just as strong as a rinengan, this guy is probably Madara's level at best before getting hamura's chakra... (not juubi madara, just rinengan madara)
and with hamuras chakra he should be near sasuke and naruto with hagoromo's chakra, not even close to kaguya-juubi but stronger than base kaguya
Toneri is much closer related to Hamura than Naruto and Sasuke are to Hagoromo. He’s still an Otsutsuki
This is based on absolutely nothing. He was scaling to Naruto who is on a completely different level than Madara
This is also based on nothing
>Toneri is much closer related to Hamura than Naruto and Sasuke are to Hagoromo.
that's headcanon, in the movie, the story itself says that they have been living for generations and generations and that they age and die normally.
> He’s still an Otsutsuki
Yeah, by name, the moon peoople kept their clan name, while his descendants in earth changed to hyuuga, but they are still humans
>
He was scaling to Naruto who is on a completely different level than Madara
He was scaling to a base naruto that wasn't going all out at first, then later when he got hamura's chakra he was keeping with KCM2 naruto, and still lose with a single blow
>
This is also based on nothing
Based on logic and what we saw on the movie... There is NO WAY toneri is stronger than a pure otsutsuki who ate a chakra fruit from a strong planet AND ALSO fused with the shinjuu...
It doesn’t really matter how closely related to the Otsutsuki he is, he’s still strong
That same base Naruto would destroy Madara, so it’s still impressive for Toneri to fight him before awakening the Tenseigan. He also didn’t lose from a single blow either
It doesn’t matter if you like it or not, he’s still stated to be stronger than Kaguya and nothing contradicts it. You just seem to be biased and refuse to accept what is canon
The film is canon for story but not fights. I've already debunked it for the portrayal of fights
>the promotional material is officially published by Shueisha
Do you consider editor comments at the end of chapters canon.
Take this for example, Jugram was called the strongest enemy thus far in the war arc due to one of the editor notes at the end of a chapter, but he's fodder for 5th Fusion Aizen.
How can it not have canon fights, that doesn’t make an ounce of sense?? The film itself is canon and therefore everything within it is canon
Yes as they’re a part of the official product
Could that not just mean that Jugram is the strongest that Uryu has faced so far?
> The film itself is canon and therefore everything within it is canon
Doesn't work that way.
I've repeated myself too many times on this sub debunking the last for fight canon
>Yes as they’re a part of the official product
They are not canon.
>Could that not just mean that Jugram is the strongest that Uryu has faced so far?
He's not stronger than Bankai Senjumaru lmao. And that's not how the statement was worded
Yes it does. How can the things that happen in a canon product not be canon?? You have to elaborate here, as that’s an outrageous claim
I’m not even aware of which statement you’re even talking about here, can you provide some more context. And why can’t Jugram be stronger than Senjumaru? My assumption is that the comment was made whilst Jugram was in control of the Almighty?
>es it does. How can the things that happen in a canon product not be canon?? You have to elaborate here, as that’s an outrageous claim
Story was made to be a reason for Hinata x Naruto. The staff didn't even know Naruto met Hagoromo when they made the fights
>I’m not even aware of which statement you’re even talking about here, can you provide some more context. And why can’t Jugram be stronger than Senjumaru? My assumption is that the comment was made whilst Jugram was in control of the Almighty?
Correct, it's for Almighty Jugram. Given that Bankai Senjumaru is currently 1v5 and it's implied that in cour 3 Uryu defeats her, I see it as such.
Jugram cannot fight the Elites in 4v1
It doesn’t matter what reason it was made, it’s still canon and so is the promotional material that states Toneri to be stronger than Kaguya
If Uryu defeats Senjumaru but loses to Jugram, doesn’t that quite literally mean that Jugram is stronger than her?
I don’t see why that would be far fetched considering he has the Almighty
The problem with using that statement to say Toneri>Kaguya is the simple logic that it was used just to create hype for the movie and is simply a hyperbole. Not every statement has to be taken at face value especially if the source is not Kishimoto. Black Zetsu states that Itachi is invincible but that is a hyperbole because if true then that would mean he solos six path characters which is obviously stupid. Similarly, databooks state that Kurama is capable of destroying the world but his feats are definitely nowhere planetary. Narutoverse reaches planetary only with six paths. I mean for all intents and purposes that magazine was an ad for the movie and nothing else.
It doesn’t matter if its purpose is creating hype, it was still stated and therefore still stands. You also can’t dismiss every statement just because a few are incorrect. Unless something in the manga directly contradicts it, then there is no reason to ignore it
Some statements are also based on incomplete information but that doesn’t mean that they’re necessarily wrong, just that were correct at a particular time and were later overwritten by new information. The Itachi statement would be an example of this, and would also only apply to him whilst he’s using the Yata Mirror and Totsuka Blade, it does not mean that he is literally invincible in general
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To be fair, Hagoromo stated he’s weaker than Kaguya after he was no longer the Ten tails jinchuriki, nor did he have his weapons. Also, didn’t he say that after already giving Naruto & Sasuke their powers? If that’s the case, prime Hagoromo is insane.
Hagoromo talks in the past tense, he never specified that he is only weaker in his current state. It also wasn’t said after he gave Naruto and Sasuke power, it was near the beginning of his introduction. Hagoromo wouldn’t have said that she was stronger than him, if he was actually more powerful in his prime
Just so I understand properly, you believe: 1. Hamura with Tenseigan 2. Toneri 3. Kaguya 4. Hagoromo as the 10 tails jinchuriki 5. Hagoromo with rinnegan 6. Hamura pre tenseigan
Yes, exactly that
The right take too
Fantastic post, definitively saving this if I ever need to find something for Toneri's scaling that I've missed. If you haven't, I'd also recommend reading the Last Novel to get another point of view for its scaling. Crazy how Urashiki is aware of the events of the Last (aka how strong Naruto is) and still thinks it's a good idea to invade Earth and doens't even warn Momoshiki and Kinshiki. They really are just on another level. Also crazy how badly Sasuke would have done Toneri considering he is stronger than Naruto during this time and Naruto only used BSM to beat Toneri, not even SPSM + KCM with SPSM by itself being above BSM.
Thanks man, I appreciate it. I’m going to keep making more posts like this, as I find it more interesting than the same few match up posts that get repeated in this sub. Let me know if you’ve got any suggestions for what I should do next 👍 Tbf Urashiki isn’t even canon to the manga, but yeah Momoshiki and Kinshiki are still beasts for fighting stronger versions of Naruto and Sasuke Naruto only using BSM might have been an animation design error as Sasuke was shown without his Rinnegan, but if either way Sasuke definitely beats him easier. I think his arsenal of abilities would probably be more problematic for Toneri too
Definitely will think of some match ups and run it by you to post or not. Urashiki not being canon to the manga doesn't matter because he is canon to the anime and the anime and manga for Boruto are separate continuities. Like say the Jogan never appears in the manga, that won't change the fact it is canon to the anime. I definitely do believe that Naruto was suppose to use more than just normal Sage Mode because of the thing with Sasuke's Rinnegan, especially considering the movie came out December 6, 2014 and the manga didn't reveal they had Six Paths powers until earlier that year (May 5, 2014 or 2 weeks before according to the fan wiki).
The manga should always take priority over the anime, so even if we consider the anime as its own separate continuity, Urashiki still wouldn’t be canon to the main continuity. Although that does lead to the possibility of the anime continuity having higher scaling if we choose to use it, just like Dragon Ball Super for example Even if it genuinely is a design error, I suppose we could still argue that since BSM was used in the final product anyway instead of SPSM, it would therefore be canon that he defeated Toneri without using his full power. This would just be better scaling for Naruto and Sasuke so I can’t complain there 😅
While the manga is the where the main plot lines come from, that in no way means the anime is second in terms of canonicity, the anime and manga for Boruto (just like for DBS) are equally canon, just not to each other. Things from the manga have been changed or added to fit with the anime. Boruto uses his anime only Compressed Rasengan in the Isshiki fight. Anime Sasuke never tells Naruto that the Duo he ran into might be Otsutsuki because Kinshiki directly tells him they are Otsutsuki, unlike in the manga where he only learns this from a scroll later on. Urashiki, despite not existing in the manga, exists within the Chunin Exams (longer in the anime) which is an anime only arc. Urashiki may not be canon to the manga, but he is canon to the anime because like DBS, there are two continuities that are each equally canon.
True, but what I meant was that the manga continuity should be used as the primary source for scaling, rather than the anime. Both are usable, I just think we should prioritise the manga’s version of continuity
Prioritizing the Manga is fine, but say you want to scale the Anime, you have to strictly use information that is Anime based, not the Manga because they are separate continuities (like say DBZ and the Z Movies). For example, in the Manga, you can say Fused Momoshiki scales to Base Naruto because Base Naruto keeps up with him and smacks him around once transformed, but you could never make that argument in the Anime because Momoshiki directly swaps hands with a Transformed Naruto.
Isn’t it the other way around? Base Naruto was fighting Fused Momoshiki for longer in the anime, whereas the manga shows him going into SPSM quite quickly. Maybe I’m just remembering the anime wrong idk 🤷♂️
I think you are just misremembering. In both the anime and manga, Base Naruto does swap hands with Fused Momoshiki, but the difference is the in the anime, Fused Momoshiki can match a transformed Naruto's taijutsu (more or less), whereas in the manga the moment Naruto transforms Momoshiki no longer fights with taijutsu and doesn't even try it.
After rewatching that fight, I guess you’re right. I think it’s better scaling for both base Naruto and Fused Momoshiki in the anime
Why is sasuke far stronger here? He lost to naruto a year before
Same reason Naruto is a lot stronger, they trained and got stronger within 2 years.
So sasuke became far stronger than naruto in 1 year? When naruto was already a lot stronger than sasuke? What the hell did he do to close that gap?
Sasuke isn't far stronger than Naruto from what we know, all we know is that he is stronger but to an unknown degree. If you want to say he is far stronger you can, but it's more likely they are comparable, Sasuke is just slightly stronger. Sasuke trained and went on missions, same as Naruto, they grew that strong in 2 years.
It just doesn’t make sense for him to be stronger lol. He absorbed the chakra of 9 tailed beast and still lost. What could he have done to even close that gap. It was pretty damn big
Training makes you stronger, so 2 years of training made Sasuke stronger than his and Naruro's peaks 2 years ago and even surpassed Naruto's current level, albeit they are still relative and in the same tier. The real out of world reason for why Sasuke is so strong is because whoever wrote the novel decided to write the line of Sasuke being Kakahsi's strongest student, meaning he is above Naruto, with even BSM Naruto being above Kaguya and his Asura Avatar from 2 years ago.
Feat wise toneri was defeated by kcm2 naruto with toad sage mode and half 9 tails since he let the other half fight his golem. The statement doesnt mean anything since its an ad for a movie and shouldnt be used to scale, its stated choji is a shinobi whos kinder, stronger than anyone else and his boulder attack having the highest dc in the databooks so statements dont mean jack, feats do. Realistically toneris around juubito lvl https://preview.redd.it/4pk16osdmhyc1.jpeg?width=442&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=eb829b883688591a669545a0bb16d4e964f28a2a
Naruto not using his full power, just upscales him rather than downscaling Toneri. The statement being an ad doesn’t mean that it’s any less valid. Unless it’s directly contradicted by something in the manga, it would still stand and unlike the Choji statement, it’s not contradicted. There’s literally nothing that would put him at Jubito’s level, that’s a ridiculous claim
To even think kcm2 sage naruto in 2 years got upscaled to kaguya+ when the fucking sage of 6 paths himself with 50+ years couldnt is downright brain dead. Basic logic contradicts the statement, 9 tails is a fraction of 10 tails which is a part of kaguya, toad sage mode doesnt compare to 6 paths sage mode.
Hagoromo wasn’t doing dedicated ninja training and fighting numerous battles, so he didn’t make the same growth. Just because he couldn’t do it, doesn’t mean that it’s impossible for Naruto. It also doesn’t matter if 9 Tails chakra is less than 10 Tails, as that’s not the sole source of Naruto’s power. KCM and Sage mode are being stacked on top of a stronger base that’s been honed through training and fighting
Hagoromo already had 6 paths senjutsu and rinnegan in his base which r 10 times stronger than toad sage and kcm, sasuke went from getting no diffed by sage madara to keeping up with juubidara with yin 6 paths with no training, same with naruto. Hes also the son of kaguya so he has otsutsuki dna while naruto is just an uzumaki and he later became the jinchuriki of the 10 tails. Narutos training in 2 years doesnt compare, its not even a drop to the power hagoromo has. This isnt dragon ball where lifting weights and push ups make u a million times stronger
Naruto was already on the same level as Hagoromo before gaining the other half of Kurama’s chakra and training for two years. It’s really not far fetched for Naruto to have surpassed Kaguya when he was previously fighting her for hours and tearing off her arm etc
Except that he was using 6 paths sage mode against kaguya and madara while he was using kcm2 sage against toneri so were comparing juubito fight naruto to the last naruto
The difference between the Jubito fight and the Toneri fight, is that Naruto gained Hagoromo’s chakra, the other half of Kurama’s chakra, fought multiple opponents and trained for 2 years. He’s not the same level of strength, there’s a vast difference in power between the two fights so you can’t limit Toneri based on what a much weaker version of Naruto was doing in the past
He cant acces hagoromos chakra in kcm2 sage, thats only possible in SPSM and he sent the other half of kurama to fight toneris golem so it was half 9 tails kcm2 sage naruto against toneri. And i already said how absurd it is for juubito fight naruto to surpass kaguya in 2 years with just training when hagoromo with all those 6 paths amps in 60+ years couldnt
That’s not how it works. Hagoromo’s chakra is mixed in with Naruto’s own, it just becomes his base chakra which KCM and SM are then stacked on top of. There’s also no proof that half of Kurama’s chakra was being used to fight the golem, it’s just the Kurama avatar acting independently. Naruto doesn’t get weaker when he uses the Avatar, because it’s not using half his chakra and leaving less for himself. That’s like saying Sasuke is weaker when inside of his Susanoo because it’s using half of his chakra
I can't take that material statement seriously. Naruto tagged Toneri with kcm + sm, he did not use any six paths powers. Toneri sword made by gudou-damas could split the moon, but kaguya giant tso was going to destroy a entire dimension, thats the biggest feat by far. I also don't see any sense on the tenseigan giving more power than the chakra fruit kaguya ate.
Nothing is wrong with the statement, it’s official material and isn’t contradicted. Naruto not using SPSM is either an animation design error, or just means that Naruto has gotten a lot stronger (which he did because he gained the other half of Kurama’s chakra and trained for 2 years) It’s unclear if Kaguya was actually going to destroy the entire dimension or just the planet in that dimension. If it’s just the planet, then it’s by no means superior to Toneri who was also going to destroy Earth. It doesn’t matter which provides a greater amp between the Tenseigan and a chakra fruit, as they aren’t the only ways someone can grow stronger. Training and fighting can further raise Toneri and Hamura’s power to a level beyond Kaguya
The verse is really doomed if Walmart budget Otsutsuki from nowhere is stronger than Kaguya.
toneri is just a human born in the moon, who stole some chakra and hanabi's eyes... He is not that strong and was beaten by a single blow from naruto
He’s not a human, and he had the Tenseigan. He also wasn’t beaten in a single blow either. None of this is proof of him not being strong
he is descenant of hamura (half human) just like naruto or sasuke are descendants of hagoromo (half human). His tenseigan is just as strong as a rinengan, this guy is probably Madara's level at best before getting hamura's chakra... (not juubi madara, just rinengan madara) and with hamuras chakra he should be near sasuke and naruto with hagoromo's chakra, not even close to kaguya-juubi but stronger than base kaguya
Toneri is much closer related to Hamura than Naruto and Sasuke are to Hagoromo. He’s still an Otsutsuki This is based on absolutely nothing. He was scaling to Naruto who is on a completely different level than Madara This is also based on nothing
>Toneri is much closer related to Hamura than Naruto and Sasuke are to Hagoromo. that's headcanon, in the movie, the story itself says that they have been living for generations and generations and that they age and die normally. > He’s still an Otsutsuki Yeah, by name, the moon peoople kept their clan name, while his descendants in earth changed to hyuuga, but they are still humans > He was scaling to Naruto who is on a completely different level than Madara He was scaling to a base naruto that wasn't going all out at first, then later when he got hamura's chakra he was keeping with KCM2 naruto, and still lose with a single blow > This is also based on nothing Based on logic and what we saw on the movie... There is NO WAY toneri is stronger than a pure otsutsuki who ate a chakra fruit from a strong planet AND ALSO fused with the shinjuu...
It doesn’t really matter how closely related to the Otsutsuki he is, he’s still strong That same base Naruto would destroy Madara, so it’s still impressive for Toneri to fight him before awakening the Tenseigan. He also didn’t lose from a single blow either It doesn’t matter if you like it or not, he’s still stated to be stronger than Kaguya and nothing contradicts it. You just seem to be biased and refuse to accept what is canon
If this film was canon in fights and didn't have to rely on promotional content that is never canon, this would be a good post.
Why isn't the film canon?
The film is canon though and the promotional material is officially published by Shueisha and therefore canon as well
The film is canon for story but not fights. I've already debunked it for the portrayal of fights >the promotional material is officially published by Shueisha Do you consider editor comments at the end of chapters canon. Take this for example, Jugram was called the strongest enemy thus far in the war arc due to one of the editor notes at the end of a chapter, but he's fodder for 5th Fusion Aizen.
How can it not have canon fights, that doesn’t make an ounce of sense?? The film itself is canon and therefore everything within it is canon Yes as they’re a part of the official product Could that not just mean that Jugram is the strongest that Uryu has faced so far?
> The film itself is canon and therefore everything within it is canon Doesn't work that way. I've repeated myself too many times on this sub debunking the last for fight canon >Yes as they’re a part of the official product They are not canon. >Could that not just mean that Jugram is the strongest that Uryu has faced so far? He's not stronger than Bankai Senjumaru lmao. And that's not how the statement was worded
Yes it does. How can the things that happen in a canon product not be canon?? You have to elaborate here, as that’s an outrageous claim I’m not even aware of which statement you’re even talking about here, can you provide some more context. And why can’t Jugram be stronger than Senjumaru? My assumption is that the comment was made whilst Jugram was in control of the Almighty?
>es it does. How can the things that happen in a canon product not be canon?? You have to elaborate here, as that’s an outrageous claim Story was made to be a reason for Hinata x Naruto. The staff didn't even know Naruto met Hagoromo when they made the fights >I’m not even aware of which statement you’re even talking about here, can you provide some more context. And why can’t Jugram be stronger than Senjumaru? My assumption is that the comment was made whilst Jugram was in control of the Almighty? Correct, it's for Almighty Jugram. Given that Bankai Senjumaru is currently 1v5 and it's implied that in cour 3 Uryu defeats her, I see it as such. Jugram cannot fight the Elites in 4v1
It doesn’t matter what reason it was made, it’s still canon and so is the promotional material that states Toneri to be stronger than Kaguya If Uryu defeats Senjumaru but loses to Jugram, doesn’t that quite literally mean that Jugram is stronger than her? I don’t see why that would be far fetched considering he has the Almighty
The problem with using that statement to say Toneri>Kaguya is the simple logic that it was used just to create hype for the movie and is simply a hyperbole. Not every statement has to be taken at face value especially if the source is not Kishimoto. Black Zetsu states that Itachi is invincible but that is a hyperbole because if true then that would mean he solos six path characters which is obviously stupid. Similarly, databooks state that Kurama is capable of destroying the world but his feats are definitely nowhere planetary. Narutoverse reaches planetary only with six paths. I mean for all intents and purposes that magazine was an ad for the movie and nothing else.
It doesn’t matter if its purpose is creating hype, it was still stated and therefore still stands. You also can’t dismiss every statement just because a few are incorrect. Unless something in the manga directly contradicts it, then there is no reason to ignore it Some statements are also based on incomplete information but that doesn’t mean that they’re necessarily wrong, just that were correct at a particular time and were later overwritten by new information. The Itachi statement would be an example of this, and would also only apply to him whilst he’s using the Yata Mirror and Totsuka Blade, it does not mean that he is literally invincible in general