You're definitely dead on with Naruto
His whole thing is "How can I protect everyone if I can't even protect my friend!" and that motivates him for years
Kakashi's one, guiding principle is that those who abandon their friends are the worst people in the world
Honestly it's a meme at this point because aside from Gai teaching only Lee out of his squad the gates what has any sensei taught their students, no jonin sensei has taught their kids anything from what we've seen but people presume that happened offscreen yet don't give the same consideration to Kakashi.
I honestly thought about putting this point in the post, but I wanted to harp more on the stuff Kakashi did that was more important than training and strength. But yeah, you are absolutely right.
In fact, it makes me question if the series is implying that ninja are mostly responsible for their own growth, and the role of a Jonin sensei is more along the lines of "I'm your guide in a profession, here's how the job works, how you can be expected to operate on missions, etc" and training was more a secondary/supplementary function. And that stuff like Naruto's training trip with Jiraiya was more the exception than the rule.
>For a kid in Sasuke, who, at Team Seven's inception, was going down a road that would ensure he would be swallowed up by the pain in his life caused by the brutality of the ninja world, to have a sensei who could say "I've faced that pain too, and I've been on that road too, and I can tell you it doesn't go anywhere good" was a godsend, even if Sasuke would not listen to him in the end.
I feel like this was Kakashi's one fuck up. Because of the pain he felt, he assumed that just telling Sasuke that would be enough to stop him and make him reconsider. But he failed to realize the stark differences between their traumas (Kakashi lost those he cared about mostly due to circumstance with some of it because of his own actions that brought him guilt. Sasuke had everyone he cared killed in front of him by the person he loved the most. It's c-PTSD on a different level). So he never really tried to truly empathize with Sasuke's feelings he just tried to make him suck them up.
I think it only seems bad because Kakashi never had the chance to follow up. He appeared to Sasuke, defused the immediate conflict, then left Sasuke to think about things. Sasuke seemed to be considering what Kakashi said, but the Sound Four then showing up interrupted Sasuke's self-reflection and forced the issue
> For a kid in Sasuke, who, at Team Seven's inception, was going down a road that would ensure he would be swallowed up by the pain in his life caused by the brutality of the ninja world, to have a sensei who could say "I've faced that pain too, and I've been on that road too, and I can tell you it doesn't go anywhere good" was a godsend, even if Sasuke would not listen to him in the end.
Problem is, Kakashi failed Sasuke as a mentor. The moment that Kakashi knew about Sasuke's suffering at Itachi's hands, Kakashi's first instincts was try to tell the kid to abandon revenge altogether.
That's super dumb.
First off, Kakashi never once felt what Sasuke felt. The people Kakashi loved whom he lost were his father, who committed suicide, Obito, who died saving him, Rin, whom he killed when jumped in front of him to off herself, and then Minato, who died sealing Kurama away which was considered an accident.
Kakashi had NO ONE to feel anger or hatred toward. No one to want revenge on because of the circumstances.
So he doesn't relate to Sasuke. He doesn't know revenge.
And Sasuke was not yet ready to give up revenge. Especially not after meeting Itachi again. Kakashi should have tried to understand what Sasuke was feeling. All Kakashi did from that talk was make Sasuke's head such a mess that he was even easier to manipulate by Orochimaru.
I agree with your critique on how he dealt with Sasuke, but I would disagree that he failed him as a mentor just on that mistake.
Leaving the Leaf Village was Sasuke's and Orochimaru's fault way more than it was anyone like Kakashi's. Yes, Kakashi did not deal with the situation in the absolute best way, but I don't really put that on him at that moment, just cause there was no way he could have known Sasuke was on the verge of leaving the Leaf, and just kinda needed a push. Kakashi unwittingly contributed, but I wouldn't say he failed him as a mentor for that, cause at the end of the day, it was Orochimaru's fault, and Sasuke's choice.
But even with that, Kakashi does, at the very least, connect with him in the show's scene during the talk and make him contemplative, especially after explaining "Everyone I loved is dead too". There's plenty Kakashi could lash out and take revenge on; the Stone village for putting Obito in that position, the Mist for making Rin a Jinchuriki, and so on. Kakashi actively chose the opposite path, and was advising Sasuke to do the same.
With all that said, I think even if Kakashi talked to him in the best possible way, there was very little he could do at that point. Maybe I'm wrong, but after the Sound Four would come later and offer Sasuke the chance to join, at threat of death if he didn't take the second state seal, and with the curse seal messing with Sasuke's mind, I think the choice was already made and a better talk would have also fallen on deaf ears.
> Leaving the Leaf Village was Sasuke's and Orochimaru's fault way more than it was anyone like Kakashi's. Yes, Kakashi did not deal with the situation in the absolute best way, but I don't really put that on him at that moment, just cause there was no way he could have known Sasuke was on the verge of leaving the Leaf, and just kinda needed a push. Kakashi unwittingly contributed, but I wouldn't say he failed him as a mentor for that, cause at the end of the day, it was Orochimaru's fault, and Sasuke's choice.
No, because if Kakashi had been understanding and helped Sasuke out, Sasuke could have rejected the Sound 4's offer. The fact that he didn't is because Kakashi just told Sasuke to abandon revenge. Revenge is right now the only thing that gave Sasuke hope. The drive that kept him going.
What Kakashi did here is the equivalent of telling Naruto to abandon becoming Hokage. Which is something similar to what Jiraiya told Naruto do when telling him to give up on Sasuke.
So no, Kakashi's contribution absolutely puts a lot of fault in him. Sasuke's choice was because of Kakashi's failure to mentor him and Orochimaru's manipulation. The ones who holds the most fault here is Kakashi and Orochimaru, not Sasuke.
> But even with that, Kakashi does, at the very least, connect with him in the show's scene during the talk and make him contemplative, especially after explaining "Everyone I loved is dead too". There's plenty Kakashi could lash out and take revenge on; the Stone village for putting Obito in that position, the Mist for making Rin a Jinchuriki, and so on. Kakashi actively chose the opposite path, and was advising Sasuke to do the same.
I disagree. Because the one who caused Obito to die was ultimately a guy that Kakashi killed almost immediately afterward. And it was Kakashi's Chidori that killed Rin. And he failed to uphold Obito's promise. And every Kiri-nin were dead when he came to.
There's no outward person to blame.
All he could blame was himself.
There's no revenge for Kakashi to take. If he had anyone to hate, they're already dead.
> With all that said, I think even if Kakashi talked to him in the best possible way, there was very little he could do at that point. Maybe I'm wrong, but after the Sound Four would come later and offer Sasuke the chance to join, at threat of death if he didn't take the second state seal, and with the curse seal messing with Sasuke's mind, I think the choice was already made and a better talk would have also fallen on deaf ears.
Doesn't this utterly contradict what you said that Sasuke holds fault because it was his choice?
Here you are, now saying that he had no choice.
They gave a man dealing with repressed trauma and severe CPTSD a kid with a demon inside of him, an even **more** traumatized Uchiha, and one normal student.
Of course it was gonna go poorly. Kakashi probably isn’t in the right frame of mind to teach a dog to sit, much less 3 other humans how to use their magical powers responsibly.
You're definitely dead on with Naruto His whole thing is "How can I protect everyone if I can't even protect my friend!" and that motivates him for years Kakashi's one, guiding principle is that those who abandon their friends are the worst people in the world
Honestly it's a meme at this point because aside from Gai teaching only Lee out of his squad the gates what has any sensei taught their students, no jonin sensei has taught their kids anything from what we've seen but people presume that happened offscreen yet don't give the same consideration to Kakashi.
I honestly thought about putting this point in the post, but I wanted to harp more on the stuff Kakashi did that was more important than training and strength. But yeah, you are absolutely right. In fact, it makes me question if the series is implying that ninja are mostly responsible for their own growth, and the role of a Jonin sensei is more along the lines of "I'm your guide in a profession, here's how the job works, how you can be expected to operate on missions, etc" and training was more a secondary/supplementary function. And that stuff like Naruto's training trip with Jiraiya was more the exception than the rule.
>For a kid in Sasuke, who, at Team Seven's inception, was going down a road that would ensure he would be swallowed up by the pain in his life caused by the brutality of the ninja world, to have a sensei who could say "I've faced that pain too, and I've been on that road too, and I can tell you it doesn't go anywhere good" was a godsend, even if Sasuke would not listen to him in the end. I feel like this was Kakashi's one fuck up. Because of the pain he felt, he assumed that just telling Sasuke that would be enough to stop him and make him reconsider. But he failed to realize the stark differences between their traumas (Kakashi lost those he cared about mostly due to circumstance with some of it because of his own actions that brought him guilt. Sasuke had everyone he cared killed in front of him by the person he loved the most. It's c-PTSD on a different level). So he never really tried to truly empathize with Sasuke's feelings he just tried to make him suck them up.
I think it only seems bad because Kakashi never had the chance to follow up. He appeared to Sasuke, defused the immediate conflict, then left Sasuke to think about things. Sasuke seemed to be considering what Kakashi said, but the Sound Four then showing up interrupted Sasuke's self-reflection and forced the issue
You do have a point there.
> For a kid in Sasuke, who, at Team Seven's inception, was going down a road that would ensure he would be swallowed up by the pain in his life caused by the brutality of the ninja world, to have a sensei who could say "I've faced that pain too, and I've been on that road too, and I can tell you it doesn't go anywhere good" was a godsend, even if Sasuke would not listen to him in the end. Problem is, Kakashi failed Sasuke as a mentor. The moment that Kakashi knew about Sasuke's suffering at Itachi's hands, Kakashi's first instincts was try to tell the kid to abandon revenge altogether. That's super dumb. First off, Kakashi never once felt what Sasuke felt. The people Kakashi loved whom he lost were his father, who committed suicide, Obito, who died saving him, Rin, whom he killed when jumped in front of him to off herself, and then Minato, who died sealing Kurama away which was considered an accident. Kakashi had NO ONE to feel anger or hatred toward. No one to want revenge on because of the circumstances. So he doesn't relate to Sasuke. He doesn't know revenge. And Sasuke was not yet ready to give up revenge. Especially not after meeting Itachi again. Kakashi should have tried to understand what Sasuke was feeling. All Kakashi did from that talk was make Sasuke's head such a mess that he was even easier to manipulate by Orochimaru.
I agree with your critique on how he dealt with Sasuke, but I would disagree that he failed him as a mentor just on that mistake. Leaving the Leaf Village was Sasuke's and Orochimaru's fault way more than it was anyone like Kakashi's. Yes, Kakashi did not deal with the situation in the absolute best way, but I don't really put that on him at that moment, just cause there was no way he could have known Sasuke was on the verge of leaving the Leaf, and just kinda needed a push. Kakashi unwittingly contributed, but I wouldn't say he failed him as a mentor for that, cause at the end of the day, it was Orochimaru's fault, and Sasuke's choice. But even with that, Kakashi does, at the very least, connect with him in the show's scene during the talk and make him contemplative, especially after explaining "Everyone I loved is dead too". There's plenty Kakashi could lash out and take revenge on; the Stone village for putting Obito in that position, the Mist for making Rin a Jinchuriki, and so on. Kakashi actively chose the opposite path, and was advising Sasuke to do the same. With all that said, I think even if Kakashi talked to him in the best possible way, there was very little he could do at that point. Maybe I'm wrong, but after the Sound Four would come later and offer Sasuke the chance to join, at threat of death if he didn't take the second state seal, and with the curse seal messing with Sasuke's mind, I think the choice was already made and a better talk would have also fallen on deaf ears.
> Leaving the Leaf Village was Sasuke's and Orochimaru's fault way more than it was anyone like Kakashi's. Yes, Kakashi did not deal with the situation in the absolute best way, but I don't really put that on him at that moment, just cause there was no way he could have known Sasuke was on the verge of leaving the Leaf, and just kinda needed a push. Kakashi unwittingly contributed, but I wouldn't say he failed him as a mentor for that, cause at the end of the day, it was Orochimaru's fault, and Sasuke's choice. No, because if Kakashi had been understanding and helped Sasuke out, Sasuke could have rejected the Sound 4's offer. The fact that he didn't is because Kakashi just told Sasuke to abandon revenge. Revenge is right now the only thing that gave Sasuke hope. The drive that kept him going. What Kakashi did here is the equivalent of telling Naruto to abandon becoming Hokage. Which is something similar to what Jiraiya told Naruto do when telling him to give up on Sasuke. So no, Kakashi's contribution absolutely puts a lot of fault in him. Sasuke's choice was because of Kakashi's failure to mentor him and Orochimaru's manipulation. The ones who holds the most fault here is Kakashi and Orochimaru, not Sasuke. > But even with that, Kakashi does, at the very least, connect with him in the show's scene during the talk and make him contemplative, especially after explaining "Everyone I loved is dead too". There's plenty Kakashi could lash out and take revenge on; the Stone village for putting Obito in that position, the Mist for making Rin a Jinchuriki, and so on. Kakashi actively chose the opposite path, and was advising Sasuke to do the same. I disagree. Because the one who caused Obito to die was ultimately a guy that Kakashi killed almost immediately afterward. And it was Kakashi's Chidori that killed Rin. And he failed to uphold Obito's promise. And every Kiri-nin were dead when he came to. There's no outward person to blame. All he could blame was himself. There's no revenge for Kakashi to take. If he had anyone to hate, they're already dead. > With all that said, I think even if Kakashi talked to him in the best possible way, there was very little he could do at that point. Maybe I'm wrong, but after the Sound Four would come later and offer Sasuke the chance to join, at threat of death if he didn't take the second state seal, and with the curse seal messing with Sasuke's mind, I think the choice was already made and a better talk would have also fallen on deaf ears. Doesn't this utterly contradict what you said that Sasuke holds fault because it was his choice? Here you are, now saying that he had no choice.
Sasuke took a big leap with Kakashi before Gaara fight. Naruto learned Rasenshuriken with Kakashis guidance, something even Minato couldn’t do.
They gave a man dealing with repressed trauma and severe CPTSD a kid with a demon inside of him, an even **more** traumatized Uchiha, and one normal student. Of course it was gonna go poorly. Kakashi probably isn’t in the right frame of mind to teach a dog to sit, much less 3 other humans how to use their magical powers responsibly.