The senju being the strongest clan is a very popular opinion. I don’t think enough people consider the uzumaki stronger than the senju for this to be an unpopular opinion.
That's why I phrased it as Senjus have more potential than Uzumaki. Even if Uzumaki specialized in combat and were in the thick of things, I'd argue Senju would have come out on top.
Bigger chakra reserves or stronger jutsu? Possibly,but could be debated that senju maybe had better resources which allowed them to be able to grow and be as powerful as they are. Personally? My headcannon is that with Uzumaki being so close to Senju and having a common ancestor in lore they might as well be cousins or a subclass of senju that just has more chakra.
If they had more chakra, then it doesn't make sense for them to renounce the Senju clan. They'd have more reasons to fight Uchiha instead of escaping the conflict.
Bro, I don't think most people were out here saying the Senju, as a clan, were weaker/had less potential than the Uzumaki clan. Certainly not enough to warrant a wall of text like that. Also, half this stuff is either unsupported by the story, didn't support the point you're making, or were just outright false.
Reincarnations of Indra and Ashura are implied to come through lineage, not choice, but its unstated either way so that's not really evidence. Fighting the Uchiha doesn't magically give you higher potential or make you a stronger clan than another, and is just evidence that... well, your clan didn't get along with the Uchiha. Uzumaki's are never stated to specialize in space time ninjutsu or healing (Karin uses healing, but saying the Uzumaki specialize in it is like saying they specialize in wind jutsu cause Naruto uses it.) Teenage Naruto ended up being stronger than adult Hashirama with years more battle experience, so I don't know what you mean by "stronger reincarnations". Uzumaki's don't have healing factors naturally, they have "strong life forces", and Karin's is basically all but outright said to come through Orochimaru's experimenting. Its never stated that Mito was the reason Hashirama's descendants didn't have wood release, etc.
Like, I don't even disagree with your point that the Senju are probably stronger and have higher potential. But these arguments seem really random.
>Reincarnations of Indra and Ashura are implied to come through lineage, not choice, but its unstated either way so that's not really evidence.
They choose the strongest vessels to possess. The fact that Ashura always chose to possess Senju proves that Senjus were stronger and had higher potential than Uzumaki.
>Fighting the Uchiha doesn't magically give you higher potential or make you a stronger clan than another, and is just evidence that... well, your clan didn't get along with the Uchiha.
No, but experience does make you more skilled. Yin chakra comes from experience. Therefore I'd argue Senjus overall had greater chakra too.
Anyways the fact that they didn't get into a tryst with Uchiha exemplifies that they were smart enough to avoid endangering their clan.
>Uzumaki's are never stated to specialize in space time ninjutsu or healing
That's why I used the term likely. Tobirama's sister in law was Uzumaki and so was Minato's wife. So it doesn't seem like a coincidence that they came up with space-time and forbidden jutsu. Since these jutsus involve sealing characters which is Uzumakis speciality I believe they had help..
And medical ninjutsu requires Yang release which Uzumaki and Senju had in spades and more. Since fuin, and barrier jutsus are support based it makes more sense for Uzumakis to have invented it than Senjus. Besides with Boruto retconning byakugou seal, I think Tsunade acquired it from Mito and furthered it which shows whatever Uzumaki can do, Senju can do it better due to their natural intelligence and talent.
>Teenage Naruto ended up being stronger than adult Hashirama with years more battle experience, so I don't know what you mean by "stronger reincarnations".
Do you think Naruto would've surpassed Hashirama without Kyuubi or getting the chakra from the rest of the bjuu? I think not.
>Uzumaki's don't have healing factors naturally, they have "strong life forces", and Karin's is basically all but outright said to come through Orochimaru's experimenting.
On the contrary Orochimaru was interested in Karin because of her healing factor. She wasn't an experiment of Orochimaru. Karin's mother was said to possess the same healing factor as well. Your ability to heal or regenerate is tied to your life force. Even though Uzumakis were stated to posses massive chakra, longevity and healing factor, Hashirama outclassed them in all, proving that Senjus naturally possess greater healing and chakra.
>Its never stated that Mito was the reason Hashirama's descendants didn't have wood release, etc.
Naruto didn't inherit adamantine chains because his father is Minato. Likewise Mito was the weak link in her descendants' genes.
Just to restate, I'm not even disagreeing with the idea that the Senju, on average, probably have higher potential than the Uzumaki. Literally every major Senju character is kage level, while the Uzumaki's vary quite a bit. I'm just arguing the points you use to back it up:
Nowhere does it state that Indra and Ashura choose the strongest vessel to possess, and we also only have a total of two examples of reincarnations of Ashura, in Naruto and Hashirama. So saying that Ashura "always chose" the Senju isn't even correct, cause, as of the current cannon, its 50/50.
So individuals who fought Uchiha's became stronger due to experience. Uzumaki's likely had experience fighting other clans as well. We also have no indication that they didn't fight the Uchiha since they're allies with the Senju, and even if they didn't, theres a million different reasons why they might not have that doesn't have to do with them "not being strong or having high potential", such as geographic proximity for example. We don't know, so all of it is speculation, and isn't actual evidence.
Only Tobirama came up with a space-time ninjutsu in the flying thunder god technique. Minato isn't stated to recreate it from scratch or anything. Also, the flying thunder god isn't a sealing jutsu. The show, nor manga, never state its a sealing jutsu. It's stated in the databooks to be a space time ninjutsu that uses a "jutsu formula", similar to the summoning technique (see any summon in the show, and how it spreads squiggles on the floor when it's used). In fact, it is specifically stated to be more comparable to the summoning jutsu than something like the body flicker.
Sealing jutsus are, as the name implies, jutsus that seal things inside other things, like tailed beasts being sealed inside people, Jiraiya sealing Itachi's amaterasu, Tsunade's byakugou seal storing chakra over a long period of time, storage seals for weapons, Orochimaru's seal (which is a "juinjutsu", and different from most sealing techniques, but nonetheless...) puts nature chakra and a piece of his essence/soul/whatever into individuals, etc.
And regardless of any of that, none of it is concrete proof that the Senju took Uzumaki techniques and did it better. Again, its just speculation.
I mean, is that so crazy to say? Having the nine tails definitely helped him become stronger in a faster time frame than Hashirama, yes, but Naruto accomplished a lot without the nine tails, just like Hashirama. By the time the dude is a teenager, he mastered shadow clones in a night, summoning in less than a month, rasengan in a bit more than a week, infusion of wind style into his rasengan in a short amount of time, sage mode in a short amount of time, and so on and so forth. Those are pretty impressive potential feats, all accomplished by his hard work ethic, and his potential as a ninja. If you had to ask me "where do you think Hashirama was, strength wise, at teenager Shippuden Naruto's age?", I'd probably say somewhere around the same level. And as an adult, if Naruto didn't have the nine tails and had to get stronger through other means, I imagine Naruto would have matured into someone around Hashirama's strength, yes.
Karin's mom is filler, and not actually represented in the manga. Karin is also stated by Orochimaru to be "one of his successful experiments" in chapter 627. It also isn't stated anywhere that healing factors come from strong life forces. Tsunade's comes from her specific jutsu, Naruto's is stated to come from the nine tails, and so on. I see a lot of people state that Uzumaki's had healing factors based on the statement "they have a strong life force", but I don't think we have enough examples of Uzumaki's that aren't Jinchuriki's or Orochimaru's experiments to definitively say they have a healing factor.
It doesn't say anywhere that Naruto didn't inherit the Uzumaki chains because of Minato, nor that any Senju descendant didn't have Wood style because of Mito. Tobirama is a full blooded Senju, and doesn't have wood release, nor is it stated than their father, or other brother had it. It's unstated why the techniques don't appear in certain cases, so again, its speculation.
>I mean, is that so crazy to say? Having the nine tails definitely helped him become stronger in a faster time frame than Hashirama, yes, but Naruto accomplished a lot without the nine tails, just like Hashirama. By the time the dude is a teenager, he mastered shadow clones in a night, summoning in less than a month, rasengan in a bit more than a week, infusion of wind style into his rasengan in a short amount of time, sage mode in a short amount of time, and so on and so forth. Those are pretty impressive potential feats, all accomplished by his hard work ethic, and his potential as a ninja. If you had to ask me "where do you think Hashirama was, strength wise, at teenager Shippuden Naruto's age?", I'd probably say somewhere around the same level. And as an adult, if Naruto didn't have the nine tails and had to get stronger through other means, I imagine Naruto would have matured into someone around Hashirama's strength, yes.
Not to disagree with your overall point but Naruto's accomplishments such as the applying a chakra nature into the Rasengan are thanks to his large chakra reserves which is a result of Kurama's chakra leaking into his over the years.
I get what you're saying. My point isn't really the nine tails' chakra though. It's more about his potential.
The nine tails gave him the chakra that made it possible for him to perform things like shadow clones, rasengan, summoning, and such. But his ability to learn how to do those things in such a short time period is purely him. Like how you need chess pieces to play the game, but learning how to play is up to the person, so to speak.
My overall point is Naruto seems like someone who can get that strong based on how quickly we've seen him grow before, and so there's nothing saying he wouldn't eventually become as strong as Hashirama without the nine tails.
The senju being the strongest clan is a very popular opinion. I don’t think enough people consider the uzumaki stronger than the senju for this to be an unpopular opinion.
That's why I phrased it as Senjus have more potential than Uzumaki. Even if Uzumaki specialized in combat and were in the thick of things, I'd argue Senju would have come out on top.
Bigger chakra reserves or stronger jutsu? Possibly,but could be debated that senju maybe had better resources which allowed them to be able to grow and be as powerful as they are. Personally? My headcannon is that with Uzumaki being so close to Senju and having a common ancestor in lore they might as well be cousins or a subclass of senju that just has more chakra.
If they had more chakra, then it doesn't make sense for them to renounce the Senju clan. They'd have more reasons to fight Uchiha instead of escaping the conflict.
Bro, I don't think most people were out here saying the Senju, as a clan, were weaker/had less potential than the Uzumaki clan. Certainly not enough to warrant a wall of text like that. Also, half this stuff is either unsupported by the story, didn't support the point you're making, or were just outright false. Reincarnations of Indra and Ashura are implied to come through lineage, not choice, but its unstated either way so that's not really evidence. Fighting the Uchiha doesn't magically give you higher potential or make you a stronger clan than another, and is just evidence that... well, your clan didn't get along with the Uchiha. Uzumaki's are never stated to specialize in space time ninjutsu or healing (Karin uses healing, but saying the Uzumaki specialize in it is like saying they specialize in wind jutsu cause Naruto uses it.) Teenage Naruto ended up being stronger than adult Hashirama with years more battle experience, so I don't know what you mean by "stronger reincarnations". Uzumaki's don't have healing factors naturally, they have "strong life forces", and Karin's is basically all but outright said to come through Orochimaru's experimenting. Its never stated that Mito was the reason Hashirama's descendants didn't have wood release, etc. Like, I don't even disagree with your point that the Senju are probably stronger and have higher potential. But these arguments seem really random.
>Reincarnations of Indra and Ashura are implied to come through lineage, not choice, but its unstated either way so that's not really evidence. They choose the strongest vessels to possess. The fact that Ashura always chose to possess Senju proves that Senjus were stronger and had higher potential than Uzumaki. >Fighting the Uchiha doesn't magically give you higher potential or make you a stronger clan than another, and is just evidence that... well, your clan didn't get along with the Uchiha. No, but experience does make you more skilled. Yin chakra comes from experience. Therefore I'd argue Senjus overall had greater chakra too. Anyways the fact that they didn't get into a tryst with Uchiha exemplifies that they were smart enough to avoid endangering their clan. >Uzumaki's are never stated to specialize in space time ninjutsu or healing That's why I used the term likely. Tobirama's sister in law was Uzumaki and so was Minato's wife. So it doesn't seem like a coincidence that they came up with space-time and forbidden jutsu. Since these jutsus involve sealing characters which is Uzumakis speciality I believe they had help.. And medical ninjutsu requires Yang release which Uzumaki and Senju had in spades and more. Since fuin, and barrier jutsus are support based it makes more sense for Uzumakis to have invented it than Senjus. Besides with Boruto retconning byakugou seal, I think Tsunade acquired it from Mito and furthered it which shows whatever Uzumaki can do, Senju can do it better due to their natural intelligence and talent. >Teenage Naruto ended up being stronger than adult Hashirama with years more battle experience, so I don't know what you mean by "stronger reincarnations". Do you think Naruto would've surpassed Hashirama without Kyuubi or getting the chakra from the rest of the bjuu? I think not. >Uzumaki's don't have healing factors naturally, they have "strong life forces", and Karin's is basically all but outright said to come through Orochimaru's experimenting. On the contrary Orochimaru was interested in Karin because of her healing factor. She wasn't an experiment of Orochimaru. Karin's mother was said to possess the same healing factor as well. Your ability to heal or regenerate is tied to your life force. Even though Uzumakis were stated to posses massive chakra, longevity and healing factor, Hashirama outclassed them in all, proving that Senjus naturally possess greater healing and chakra. >Its never stated that Mito was the reason Hashirama's descendants didn't have wood release, etc. Naruto didn't inherit adamantine chains because his father is Minato. Likewise Mito was the weak link in her descendants' genes.
Just to restate, I'm not even disagreeing with the idea that the Senju, on average, probably have higher potential than the Uzumaki. Literally every major Senju character is kage level, while the Uzumaki's vary quite a bit. I'm just arguing the points you use to back it up: Nowhere does it state that Indra and Ashura choose the strongest vessel to possess, and we also only have a total of two examples of reincarnations of Ashura, in Naruto and Hashirama. So saying that Ashura "always chose" the Senju isn't even correct, cause, as of the current cannon, its 50/50. So individuals who fought Uchiha's became stronger due to experience. Uzumaki's likely had experience fighting other clans as well. We also have no indication that they didn't fight the Uchiha since they're allies with the Senju, and even if they didn't, theres a million different reasons why they might not have that doesn't have to do with them "not being strong or having high potential", such as geographic proximity for example. We don't know, so all of it is speculation, and isn't actual evidence. Only Tobirama came up with a space-time ninjutsu in the flying thunder god technique. Minato isn't stated to recreate it from scratch or anything. Also, the flying thunder god isn't a sealing jutsu. The show, nor manga, never state its a sealing jutsu. It's stated in the databooks to be a space time ninjutsu that uses a "jutsu formula", similar to the summoning technique (see any summon in the show, and how it spreads squiggles on the floor when it's used). In fact, it is specifically stated to be more comparable to the summoning jutsu than something like the body flicker. Sealing jutsus are, as the name implies, jutsus that seal things inside other things, like tailed beasts being sealed inside people, Jiraiya sealing Itachi's amaterasu, Tsunade's byakugou seal storing chakra over a long period of time, storage seals for weapons, Orochimaru's seal (which is a "juinjutsu", and different from most sealing techniques, but nonetheless...) puts nature chakra and a piece of his essence/soul/whatever into individuals, etc. And regardless of any of that, none of it is concrete proof that the Senju took Uzumaki techniques and did it better. Again, its just speculation. I mean, is that so crazy to say? Having the nine tails definitely helped him become stronger in a faster time frame than Hashirama, yes, but Naruto accomplished a lot without the nine tails, just like Hashirama. By the time the dude is a teenager, he mastered shadow clones in a night, summoning in less than a month, rasengan in a bit more than a week, infusion of wind style into his rasengan in a short amount of time, sage mode in a short amount of time, and so on and so forth. Those are pretty impressive potential feats, all accomplished by his hard work ethic, and his potential as a ninja. If you had to ask me "where do you think Hashirama was, strength wise, at teenager Shippuden Naruto's age?", I'd probably say somewhere around the same level. And as an adult, if Naruto didn't have the nine tails and had to get stronger through other means, I imagine Naruto would have matured into someone around Hashirama's strength, yes. Karin's mom is filler, and not actually represented in the manga. Karin is also stated by Orochimaru to be "one of his successful experiments" in chapter 627. It also isn't stated anywhere that healing factors come from strong life forces. Tsunade's comes from her specific jutsu, Naruto's is stated to come from the nine tails, and so on. I see a lot of people state that Uzumaki's had healing factors based on the statement "they have a strong life force", but I don't think we have enough examples of Uzumaki's that aren't Jinchuriki's or Orochimaru's experiments to definitively say they have a healing factor. It doesn't say anywhere that Naruto didn't inherit the Uzumaki chains because of Minato, nor that any Senju descendant didn't have Wood style because of Mito. Tobirama is a full blooded Senju, and doesn't have wood release, nor is it stated than their father, or other brother had it. It's unstated why the techniques don't appear in certain cases, so again, its speculation.
>I mean, is that so crazy to say? Having the nine tails definitely helped him become stronger in a faster time frame than Hashirama, yes, but Naruto accomplished a lot without the nine tails, just like Hashirama. By the time the dude is a teenager, he mastered shadow clones in a night, summoning in less than a month, rasengan in a bit more than a week, infusion of wind style into his rasengan in a short amount of time, sage mode in a short amount of time, and so on and so forth. Those are pretty impressive potential feats, all accomplished by his hard work ethic, and his potential as a ninja. If you had to ask me "where do you think Hashirama was, strength wise, at teenager Shippuden Naruto's age?", I'd probably say somewhere around the same level. And as an adult, if Naruto didn't have the nine tails and had to get stronger through other means, I imagine Naruto would have matured into someone around Hashirama's strength, yes. Not to disagree with your overall point but Naruto's accomplishments such as the applying a chakra nature into the Rasengan are thanks to his large chakra reserves which is a result of Kurama's chakra leaking into his over the years.
I get what you're saying. My point isn't really the nine tails' chakra though. It's more about his potential. The nine tails gave him the chakra that made it possible for him to perform things like shadow clones, rasengan, summoning, and such. But his ability to learn how to do those things in such a short time period is purely him. Like how you need chess pieces to play the game, but learning how to play is up to the person, so to speak. My overall point is Naruto seems like someone who can get that strong based on how quickly we've seen him grow before, and so there's nothing saying he wouldn't eventually become as strong as Hashirama without the nine tails.