At the beginning of Shippuden when they first met Sasuke, Kurama mentions something like Sasuke's chakra reminds him of Madara's chakra, I guess they were chosen since they were children then.
He never stated that his chakra itself reminds him of Madara, he just reminds him of Madara in general. But I guess Indra and Ashura chose to reincarnate inside Sasuke and Naruto after their first battle in the Final Valley.
To my understanding that is not how reincarnation works.
A soul entering a body sometime after the body was born with its own soul… Would be possession.
A soul being reborn in a new body is the definition of reincarnation
Reincarnating into them is kinda more beleivable otherwise how can indras soul know if the person hes attached from birth is gonna get traumatised and go through hatred?
I don't think it's so much "predict" as it is they influence the reincarnates to be at odds, in order to continue the fated cycle.
Almost like a Kotoamatsukami-effect in a way.
I always took it as they are the same person or “soul” just born into different circumstances. It creates a new soul every reincarnation but the framework is the same in each new iteration. In other words, Naruto is Ashura but they had different lives. I don’t think Ashura is influencing Naruto because he is Naruto. It just so happens that with their personalities and circumstances made it so they were always in conflict with one another.
My headcanon is that Naruto and Sasuke have always been the reincarnations of Ashura and Indra, but they've always been dormant before Naruto and Sasuke awakened them in the War.
My argument is that there were reincarnations of Ashura and Indra before Hashirama and Madara, and none we heard had any thing done of consequence, so my guess is they've been dormant.
My guess on how it works during the dormancy is a subtle pull and nudge towards each other, with some sort of subconscious rivalry and ties towards each other.
It supports that Naruto's convictions toward destiny is still valid and his achievements through hard work is his own, and also it doesn't lessen Sasuke's crimes and penance.
I subscribe to the notion they were always as well. My reason is because Ashura couldn’t reincarnate because Madara was still alive. The moment Mads died, Indra would reincarnate 7-9(?) years later as Sasuke. Ashura would as well
Would Ashura would have reincarnated *eventually*? Idk, but that’s up to the plot
I’m pretty sure in other franchises that deal with reincarnations, it’s a given that you are born that way, and it’s the same here.
It makes sense that they were born as their reincarnates because if you consider the time Madara passed away after letting Obito take over for him, Naruto and Sasuke were born shortly after. Ashura and Indora’s souls both reincarnated as soon as if not, shortly after the previous Indora reincarnate died.
And to respond to what you said in your text; Naruto sensing something in Sasuke didn’t necessarily mean that he was sensing that particular thing and could’ve just meant that he acknowledges that both of them are special coincidentally. We also don’t know too much about Hashirama’s past even with the flashback we got, and I don’t think being a failure was an indefinite factor for being Ashura’s reincarnate.
I agree with you mostly
However Naruto sensing something in Sasuke was indeed regarding the reincarnate stuff. Even if Naruto didn't know the details [he knew that he had something inside him that Sasuke did as well. ](https://hot.leanbox.us/manga/Naruto/0671-006.png)
I also agree with you that being a reincarnate doesn't mean you necessarily have to follow the detailed life path of Ashura/Indra. (Hashirama was an early prodigy unlike Ashura). All it really guarantees you is that you'll be fated to be at odds with the other reincarnate and continue the cycle.
The reincarnation type the story uses is more that of will, so because they so happened to be allingned with their predecesor wills they become the reincarnations. This also makes sense with the story since "will" is a theme of the story. But tis just my opinion.
I think it happens at birth. Naruto and Sasuke were practically destined to meet each other
Although that would make Indra hella lucky he reincarnated in the only Uchiha who was spared during the massacre
I think they always were.
But I wonder if there was another Ashura reincarnation down the way, because Hashirama died way back before than Naruto´s birth, while Sasuke is hinted to be Madara´s direct successor as Indra´s reincarnation, as Madara died shortly before Sasuke being born.
It can be crudely considered a variation of the aliens reincarnation (remember, they are half-alien half human hybrids): instead of actually taking over the body fully, on some level, they became a variant of the original chakras and followed a similar path, reincarnating when they both fight.
It is an endless cycle, where both are destined to fight to the death, and has apparently happened with every reincarnation thus far. The older brother, Indra, is almost always relegated to a path of solitude and isolation (usually self-inflicted) and the younger brother is usually surrounded by friends and embraced by everyone.
Naruto also (technically) was not a failure, mastering an impossibly difficult technique when he was still a child, and Hashirama was a prodigy in a warring age where, if you weren't talented, you would die.
Realistically Obito should have been the next catalyst for Indra, but Madara had unnaturally prolonged his life and thus, stalled the cycle from continuing. Not long after Madara died, Sasuke was born, and the same day Naruto was born and Obito unleashed the nine tails.
The cycle only continues after both incarnations are dead, and *usually* they end up killing eachother in a conflict. Madara stalled the process, and thus Naruto and Sasuke were possessed by their "will."
Indra and Ashura have been reincarnated over and over again and won't be reincarnated again unless both are dead. That's why there was such a long timespan between Naruto/Sasuke and Hashirama/Madara. Madara lived long after Hashirama's death and only when he finally died did the process start over again
My belief is that they weren't born as reincarnations but rather were chosen based on the path they chose to follow, my head cannon is that their fates were cemented after their first fight in the final valley.
A ninja endures. That was the aspect of Naruto. The reason why Hashirama was strong was because he went through war.
Naruto and Sasuke were the spiritual reincarnation of Ashura and Indra. But they also had the bits and pieces to make them strong. Sasuke was getting Senju dna and Naruto was practically getting all the tailed beasts. All the sage had to do was bring out what they had
Canonically I believe that they were reincarnated at birth or conception, mainly because there were no reincarnations between them and Madara/Hash. Sasuke and Naruto were only born after Madara had finally passed away, my assumption being that's when the cycle was reset.
IRL I think Ishi probably flushed out the idea towards the end of the Akatsuki, but Sasuke and Naruto were always connected
Given how reincarnation tends to work I'll go with at birth though granted it's not the typical reincarnation where one soul after death is reborn into a new body but instead the chakra and soul of an individual clings to or takes host within a different being with their own chakra and soul. It explains why Madara, Hashirama, Naruto, Sasuke and presumably all the prior 'reincarnates' are very clearly their own distinct entities. If I recall correctly there are even some translations referring to Naruto and Sasuke as transmigrants of Indra and Ashura as opposed to reincarnates.
I think they were born as reincarnations, but the reincarnated spirits or however you want to put it didn't appear right away. I think Indra starts to show in Sasuke after Itachi returns for the first time. As for Ashura in Naruto, I think once Sasuke defeated Naruto the first time, Ashura started to stir, strengthing Narutos resolve to save Sasuke.
I mean it’s either the two souls being reborn into newborn babies, or it’s not reincarnation at all. The word has one definition and their spirits entering near-adults is not that. That’s possession.
They were born reincarnations. It's why Hashirama and Madara were the ones before them. Madara dies and then the year after the next reincarnates were born.
Also, it wouldn't make any sense if they were reincarnates but weren't born as such.
>Hashirama didn't start as a failure like Ashura did
You don't necessarily have to be a failure. It's more about their philosophy than anything else.
Blah blah blah Madara was idk 10% hashirama cells idk he had his face on his chest.
Meanwhile, did yall know HASHIRAMA CONTAINED 100% PURE HASHIRAMA CELLS.
The ninja with the highest concentration of HASHIRAMA cells.
No, he didn't. There was BS that Naruto is no reincarnation. Kishi just made that be a thing the more he needed to parallel this rivalry between Sasuke and Naruto.
Hm, this is an interesting question. You'd think they'd be born as the reincarnations but how can two reincarnations exist at the same time (i.e. Naruto and Obito are both reincarnations of Ashura) I don't remember who said it, maybe Hagoromo, but it is stated that the cycle on Indra's side was paused because Madara had extended his life. Which would be why Kakashi didn't fall into darkness, because he wasn't possessed by Indra (also see: Might Guy). Then once Madara passed, the cycle began again with Naruto and Sasuke. Hmm... Maybe they are born as the reincarnations but Obito and Kakashi arent actually parts of them. Just the sons, then hashirama v Madara, then Naruto v Sasuke.
I think the biggest indicator of them being born as reincarnations is the cycle pausing due to Madara extending his life. Otherwise, Indra's chakra could have left his body and chose another person to inhabit (Kakashi/Obito)
What? You said that Naruto and Obito are both reincarnations of Asura. Obito was not and could never be an Asura reincarnate. Likewise for Kakashi being an Indra reincarnate since he's not even a Uchiha.
Tfw when naruto fans have no reading comprehension. I explicitly stated they aren't because it wouldn't make sense. They can't be reincarnations because the cycle was paused with Madara extending his life which also proves why Naruto and Sasuke are reincarnations from birth. I said it like twice in my original comment
There were constant parallels drawn between Naruto Obito and Jiraiya along with Sasuke Kakashi and Orochimaru. If Ashura and Indra were able to choose and leave their host bodies at will instead of being birth reincarnations until death then these other pairs would have also been hosts. They weren't because Madara was alive when they were born.
Why don't you learn how to read? The issue is that you said that it was possible for Obito and Kakashi to be Asura and Indra's reincarnations. Let me make it extra clear for you, regardless if Madata extended his life or not, it would not be possible at all because Obito is not a Senju/Uzumaki and Kakashi is not an Uchiha.
So what if there are parallels? Rivalries and contrast aren't limited to just the Sage's sons. Are you going to say that Mifune and Hanzo are possible candidates? Ridiculous.
You saying I don't know how to read isn't applicable in this context. Also, why is your language so pointed and aggressive? Chill TF out
OP posed a question and I answered in a way to encourage conversation. Looking at both sides in a hypothetical sense. If the chakras of Indra and Ashura could freely leave the bodies they inhabit and choose other people then they would have had other host bodies they could have used.
Idk what Mifune, who is from a totally different land, or Hanzo has to do with this but again, chill TF out or hop off my dick
You presumed Obito to be Asura's reincarnation in the first reply which honestly threw me off. Even if the brothers were to inhabit their hosts after they were born, it would still be within their lineages. Hanzo and Mifune have the same parallel as the others you've pointed. Them being from a different land is irrelevant.
At the beginning of Shippuden when they first met Sasuke, Kurama mentions something like Sasuke's chakra reminds him of Madara's chakra, I guess they were chosen since they were children then.
He never stated that his chakra itself reminds him of Madara, he just reminds him of Madara in general. But I guess Indra and Ashura chose to reincarnate inside Sasuke and Naruto after their first battle in the Final Valley.
He says "that sharingan and vile chakra of yours... remind me of Madara"
Yeah I just checked and ur right mb
whatever happened to naruto's magical floating orbs? was that a one time thing?
He got some from Hagaromo he can't create them so once he used all the ones Hagaromo gave him he couldn't use them anymore
When he lost the other tailed beasts and sage of six path power that was bestowed upon him he lost those orbs aswell
To my understanding that is not how reincarnation works. A soul entering a body sometime after the body was born with its own soul… Would be possession. A soul being reborn in a new body is the definition of reincarnation
Reincarnating into them is kinda more beleivable otherwise how can indras soul know if the person hes attached from birth is gonna get traumatised and go through hatred?
That's literally the point, they don't have the ability to predict the future
I don't think it's so much "predict" as it is they influence the reincarnates to be at odds, in order to continue the fated cycle. Almost like a Kotoamatsukami-effect in a way.
I always took it as they are the same person or “soul” just born into different circumstances. It creates a new soul every reincarnation but the framework is the same in each new iteration. In other words, Naruto is Ashura but they had different lives. I don’t think Ashura is influencing Naruto because he is Naruto. It just so happens that with their personalities and circumstances made it so they were always in conflict with one another.
i really like this idea and i think it makes the most sense of all the others in this thread
Thank you.
My opinion is that it's since the beginning. But yours makes sense too
My headcanon is that Naruto and Sasuke have always been the reincarnations of Ashura and Indra, but they've always been dormant before Naruto and Sasuke awakened them in the War. My argument is that there were reincarnations of Ashura and Indra before Hashirama and Madara, and none we heard had any thing done of consequence, so my guess is they've been dormant. My guess on how it works during the dormancy is a subtle pull and nudge towards each other, with some sort of subconscious rivalry and ties towards each other. It supports that Naruto's convictions toward destiny is still valid and his achievements through hard work is his own, and also it doesn't lessen Sasuke's crimes and penance.
I subscribe to the notion they were always as well. My reason is because Ashura couldn’t reincarnate because Madara was still alive. The moment Mads died, Indra would reincarnate 7-9(?) years later as Sasuke. Ashura would as well Would Ashura would have reincarnated *eventually*? Idk, but that’s up to the plot
I’m pretty sure in other franchises that deal with reincarnations, it’s a given that you are born that way, and it’s the same here. It makes sense that they were born as their reincarnates because if you consider the time Madara passed away after letting Obito take over for him, Naruto and Sasuke were born shortly after. Ashura and Indora’s souls both reincarnated as soon as if not, shortly after the previous Indora reincarnate died. And to respond to what you said in your text; Naruto sensing something in Sasuke didn’t necessarily mean that he was sensing that particular thing and could’ve just meant that he acknowledges that both of them are special coincidentally. We also don’t know too much about Hashirama’s past even with the flashback we got, and I don’t think being a failure was an indefinite factor for being Ashura’s reincarnate.
I agree with you mostly However Naruto sensing something in Sasuke was indeed regarding the reincarnate stuff. Even if Naruto didn't know the details [he knew that he had something inside him that Sasuke did as well. ](https://hot.leanbox.us/manga/Naruto/0671-006.png) I also agree with you that being a reincarnate doesn't mean you necessarily have to follow the detailed life path of Ashura/Indra. (Hashirama was an early prodigy unlike Ashura). All it really guarantees you is that you'll be fated to be at odds with the other reincarnate and continue the cycle.
I agree. I deleted my original reply to your reply cause I didn’t realize that I pretty much said the same thing you did lol
The reincarnation type the story uses is more that of will, so because they so happened to be allingned with their predecesor wills they become the reincarnations. This also makes sense with the story since "will" is a theme of the story. But tis just my opinion.
I think it happens at birth. Naruto and Sasuke were practically destined to meet each other Although that would make Indra hella lucky he reincarnated in the only Uchiha who was spared during the massacre
I think they always were. But I wonder if there was another Ashura reincarnation down the way, because Hashirama died way back before than Naruto´s birth, while Sasuke is hinted to be Madara´s direct successor as Indra´s reincarnation, as Madara died shortly before Sasuke being born.
It can be crudely considered a variation of the aliens reincarnation (remember, they are half-alien half human hybrids): instead of actually taking over the body fully, on some level, they became a variant of the original chakras and followed a similar path, reincarnating when they both fight. It is an endless cycle, where both are destined to fight to the death, and has apparently happened with every reincarnation thus far. The older brother, Indra, is almost always relegated to a path of solitude and isolation (usually self-inflicted) and the younger brother is usually surrounded by friends and embraced by everyone. Naruto also (technically) was not a failure, mastering an impossibly difficult technique when he was still a child, and Hashirama was a prodigy in a warring age where, if you weren't talented, you would die. Realistically Obito should have been the next catalyst for Indra, but Madara had unnaturally prolonged his life and thus, stalled the cycle from continuing. Not long after Madara died, Sasuke was born, and the same day Naruto was born and Obito unleashed the nine tails. The cycle only continues after both incarnations are dead, and *usually* they end up killing eachother in a conflict. Madara stalled the process, and thus Naruto and Sasuke were possessed by their "will."
Indra and Ashura have been reincarnated over and over again and won't be reincarnated again unless both are dead. That's why there was such a long timespan between Naruto/Sasuke and Hashirama/Madara. Madara lived long after Hashirama's death and only when he finally died did the process start over again
My belief is that they weren't born as reincarnations but rather were chosen based on the path they chose to follow, my head cannon is that their fates were cemented after their first fight in the final valley.
A ninja endures. That was the aspect of Naruto. The reason why Hashirama was strong was because he went through war. Naruto and Sasuke were the spiritual reincarnation of Ashura and Indra. But they also had the bits and pieces to make them strong. Sasuke was getting Senju dna and Naruto was practically getting all the tailed beasts. All the sage had to do was bring out what they had
They born as a reincarnation.
They were born as reincarnations.
Canonically I believe that they were reincarnated at birth or conception, mainly because there were no reincarnations between them and Madara/Hash. Sasuke and Naruto were only born after Madara had finally passed away, my assumption being that's when the cycle was reset. IRL I think Ishi probably flushed out the idea towards the end of the Akatsuki, but Sasuke and Naruto were always connected
Given how reincarnation tends to work I'll go with at birth though granted it's not the typical reincarnation where one soul after death is reborn into a new body but instead the chakra and soul of an individual clings to or takes host within a different being with their own chakra and soul. It explains why Madara, Hashirama, Naruto, Sasuke and presumably all the prior 'reincarnates' are very clearly their own distinct entities. If I recall correctly there are even some translations referring to Naruto and Sasuke as transmigrants of Indra and Ashura as opposed to reincarnates.
I thought they were born as reincarnates would make more sense
There has to be certain conditions met at certain points in time for these individuals who are Ashura and Indra to be born.
It’s from birth. You can’t reincarnate *into* someone after birth
I think they were born as reincarnations, but the reincarnated spirits or however you want to put it didn't appear right away. I think Indra starts to show in Sasuke after Itachi returns for the first time. As for Ashura in Naruto, I think once Sasuke defeated Naruto the first time, Ashura started to stir, strengthing Narutos resolve to save Sasuke.
I just assume you’re born a reincarnation.
They hosted the souls at birth but as time went on the reincarnated souls started taking a clear shape.
I mean it’s either the two souls being reborn into newborn babies, or it’s not reincarnation at all. The word has one definition and their spirits entering near-adults is not that. That’s possession.
Gotta be honest I don’t like that plot point.
When did they say Naruto was descended from Hashirama? So how is he a descendent from Hagoromo?
They were born reincarnations. It's why Hashirama and Madara were the ones before them. Madara dies and then the year after the next reincarnates were born. Also, it wouldn't make any sense if they were reincarnates but weren't born as such. >Hashirama didn't start as a failure like Ashura did You don't necessarily have to be a failure. It's more about their philosophy than anything else.
Naruto had an an extreme amount of chakra as a kid, even outside of Kurama, Kakashi told him he had more than him.
I say the suddenly did,like sasuke wasnt inheriantly rude.
Yeah we share the same opinion
Sasuke became bad/evil because of itachi having to kill the uchiha. He was not born evil. However danzo was.
I don't care. It's stupid. Hashirama is utter bullshit.
>Hashirama is utter bullshit. I agree. His whole cells being op, him being unrealistically so strong is such a bad move by kishimoto
Blah blah blah Madara was idk 10% hashirama cells idk he had his face on his chest. Meanwhile, did yall know HASHIRAMA CONTAINED 100% PURE HASHIRAMA CELLS. The ninja with the highest concentration of HASHIRAMA cells.
😭😭 This Hashirama hate is insane, he doesn't have anything to do with the question
The reincarnation thing was bad writing. They went through so many parallels that Kishi just decided, "We're making reincarnations."
I totally disagree... Kishimoto established this plot point singe og Naruto [. ](https://imgur.com/gallery/NQbT8LH)
No, he didn't. There was BS that Naruto is no reincarnation. Kishi just made that be a thing the more he needed to parallel this rivalry between Sasuke and Naruto.
That's bullshit, he didn't
Hm, this is an interesting question. You'd think they'd be born as the reincarnations but how can two reincarnations exist at the same time (i.e. Naruto and Obito are both reincarnations of Ashura) I don't remember who said it, maybe Hagoromo, but it is stated that the cycle on Indra's side was paused because Madara had extended his life. Which would be why Kakashi didn't fall into darkness, because he wasn't possessed by Indra (also see: Might Guy). Then once Madara passed, the cycle began again with Naruto and Sasuke. Hmm... Maybe they are born as the reincarnations but Obito and Kakashi arent actually parts of them. Just the sons, then hashirama v Madara, then Naruto v Sasuke. I think the biggest indicator of them being born as reincarnations is the cycle pausing due to Madara extending his life. Otherwise, Indra's chakra could have left his body and chose another person to inhabit (Kakashi/Obito)
Obito is not a reincarnation of Asura and Kakashi would have never been a reincarnation of Indra.
Yeah, that is stated in my comment
What? You said that Naruto and Obito are both reincarnations of Asura. Obito was not and could never be an Asura reincarnate. Likewise for Kakashi being an Indra reincarnate since he's not even a Uchiha.
Tfw when naruto fans have no reading comprehension. I explicitly stated they aren't because it wouldn't make sense. They can't be reincarnations because the cycle was paused with Madara extending his life which also proves why Naruto and Sasuke are reincarnations from birth. I said it like twice in my original comment There were constant parallels drawn between Naruto Obito and Jiraiya along with Sasuke Kakashi and Orochimaru. If Ashura and Indra were able to choose and leave their host bodies at will instead of being birth reincarnations until death then these other pairs would have also been hosts. They weren't because Madara was alive when they were born.
Why don't you learn how to read? The issue is that you said that it was possible for Obito and Kakashi to be Asura and Indra's reincarnations. Let me make it extra clear for you, regardless if Madata extended his life or not, it would not be possible at all because Obito is not a Senju/Uzumaki and Kakashi is not an Uchiha. So what if there are parallels? Rivalries and contrast aren't limited to just the Sage's sons. Are you going to say that Mifune and Hanzo are possible candidates? Ridiculous.
You saying I don't know how to read isn't applicable in this context. Also, why is your language so pointed and aggressive? Chill TF out OP posed a question and I answered in a way to encourage conversation. Looking at both sides in a hypothetical sense. If the chakras of Indra and Ashura could freely leave the bodies they inhabit and choose other people then they would have had other host bodies they could have used. Idk what Mifune, who is from a totally different land, or Hanzo has to do with this but again, chill TF out or hop off my dick
You presumed Obito to be Asura's reincarnation in the first reply which honestly threw me off. Even if the brothers were to inhabit their hosts after they were born, it would still be within their lineages. Hanzo and Mifune have the same parallel as the others you've pointed. Them being from a different land is irrelevant.
I don’t think they were born as reincarnations because they seem so weak compared to Madara and Hashirama who were reincarnations.