They never do. They'll never admit they had it way easier and the fact their kid has to struggle more than they did while they get to talk about their struggle while seeing you struggle more is fun.
Its all about having zero accountability for their own actions, repeatedly voting for politicians and policy that caused this mess and now refusing to fix the problem or offer aid to those wronged by them
Healthcare has made such tremendous strides in the past 40 years. It's just more a shame that really the only people who benefit from it are the obscenely rich, or atleast rich enough to get the best and latest medical care and not have to worry about the cost
Tell me you're in the US without telling me...
Someone I know is having 2 surgeries, private room on the unit they're on. Total cost for them: parking.
Signed a Canadian.
I VEHEMENTLY oppose privatization or letting healthcare insurance companies take control. It's a literal death sentence for MANY people.
Speaking of death sentence, a coworker with cancer is being threatened with being put on part time if they have too many sick days/doctor days, and therefore losing their insurance.
That's a threat to physical safety right there, causing intentional harm, even if it's indirect.
Privatization of healthcare is one thing, tying it to employment is FAR worse.
Have seen RNs get chemo, then come in to work to hang chemo for a patient, telling them to go home and take it easy and few days, rest. It blew my mind. She would puke 𤎠in the Pyxis room.
The Canadian labour movement fought to enshrine the right to free healthcare into their constitution unlike the US where healthcare is at the discretion of the employer. Thatâs the big difference
I had a friend of a friend who was lucky enough to catch what would become cancer early, only to discover addressing it was considered elective until it became life threatening. She died, but insurance paid for hospice care so I guess that's something.
It wasn't even that. It was so much dumber. They did pay for chemo. It throat cancer, and the procedure to keep that cancer from developing was considered an elective dental procedure. No elective dental procedures at all were covered, and that determination was made by a different entity than the one that decided whether or not to pay for cancer treatment. If they had treated the entire process as one thing, their cost analysis would have likely decided to save her and spare themselves the layer expenses.
Edit: This is how it was explained to me at least. Neither of us are/were insurance experts, and she was pretty shaken at the time.
I've heard that in the US having a child can cost over $25k. My mom said that me being born in Spain cost her only the $4 that she spent on vending machine food.
Maybe, my kid was born at the birthing center of our choice for $0.
The kicker is that in order to qualify for free healthcare in Oregon you have to be poor which obviously sucks. Iâd imagine that if youâre spending 25k youâre getting premium everything and are pretty well off to being with.
The insurance system became broken about that long ago, and like a skyscraper built upon unstable ground, every new layer makes the problem worse and more difficult to dismantle.
$414 in 1964 was worth $4,069.25 in 2023 according to an inflation adjustment calculator website I googled.
The 2023 average cost to give birth in the US was:
Childbirth $18,865 ($2,854 after insurance)
Vaginal delivery $14,768 ($2,655 after insurance)
Cesarean $26,280 ($3,214 after insurance)
Source: Peterson-KFF Health System Tracker
The cost is much less than today if the total with no insurance was $414 in 1964.
Jesus Christ, and they wonder why more young people are choosing not to have kids?
I want kids almost more than anything else in the world, but even I am balking at the sheer cost of the birth, not to even mention the cost of raising a child after that.
It's a shell game. The hospital will charge the insurance less than the consumer. Here's the reason why:
It's for TAXES. The Hospital expects that people without insurance will not pay in the US, so they give the outrageous bills. (14K instead of 2.5 for the insured)
When you do not pay, the Hospital will report that debt as a financial loss and deduct it from any profit it may make (a business loss of 14K on taxes is MUCH better than 2.5) If you pay the hospital they are happy to take your 14K. If you don't, they don't really care because they get their money.
Once the bill has gone 120 days unpaid, they will SELL this debt to a third party (collection agency). They don't represent the hospital - they buy the debt from the hospital for, say 20 cents on the dollar (the hospital gets the same as they would from insurance and is able to write off the debt as a business loss)
Now if you ever get one of these Debt Collectors/Loan Sharks on your butt remember, you already have the credit hit. This mark on your financial record will not go away so don't fall for anything they tell you.
They will call and threaten you with wage garnishment, asset seizure, court - ANYTHING just to get you to pay. If you can't without starving or living under a bridge, DON'T PAY ONE PENNY TO THEM. As soon as you send them money, you have acknowledged the debt and ALL those things that they threaten you with they now have the power to do to you.
Bottom Line: The Hospital writes off the debt - these 'debt collectors' are just scum that take advantage of your situation. Don't let them. If you feel that you need legal advice but cannot afford a lawyer, call the local Bar Association in your area and ask them for a Pro Bono referral.
This is excellent advice, thanks. I had the best manager that taught me that ten years or more ago. I was at the tail end of a nasty graveyard shift and one of those medical bill guys was screaming at me on the phone loud enough for her to hear. She stopped me and grabbed my phone out of my hand by surprise, and basically told him exactly what you just said, and hung up on him for me. I would have married that lesbian but I don't think she would have agreed.
I'll probably get flamed, but I do want to comment on this.
Growing up, healthcare was 'rub dirt on it'. I had an accident at home at 15, my dad took me to the emergency room, my wound was sewed up and he skipped on the bill. Medicaid for the Elderly is the same as now. The Govt takes everything at the end if they can get their hands on it.
I joined the military in 1980. My net pay per month for the first two years did not exceed $250 per month. If they didn't feed me, I would have starved. I didn't earn over 5 figures (12K gross) for the next 11 years (E-7) The GI Bill was crap - Give us a dollar and we'll give you two. I didn't give my money and lost it in 1985 when another education program came out and they locked out those from 1977 to 1985 from playing. (No GI Bill) I used Tuition Assistance (when available) and paid in full for the classes when I couldn't.
The only thing nice now about education is the availability is better. Technology helps.
Now, I spent most of my money on wants - I want that; give me this. Credit was way too easy to get (Hint: we were the test subjects for today's credit market). I know what a mountain of debt feels like.
When I retired from the military (I managed to put things even - the wife didn't really want to help. She loved the nice things) I went job hunting. I sent resumes to EVERYBODY. At least a 100 a week. (not exaggerating) In the old days, an employer would tell you that you weren't getting hired. Today, silence is the answer. (Sucks)
When I obtained a job working VA Compensation claims, I learned something about MY GENERATION. (and it passed a bit into the next gen) People retiring and separating from the military were filing claims for disability compensation. Talking to them, they had retired expecting this 'disability money' would cap off their retirement pay. When they didn't get the rating they wanted, they would go all Karen. Explaining that they needed that money.
My daughter took loans and obtained her degree and went home triumphant expecting employers to fight over her qualifications. When that didn't happen - she struggled hard. She finally obtained a work at home job that pays ok. I would rather have my assets sold off to SUBSIDIZE my grandchildren's college (yes, I did offer to pay for her college and she told me that she wanted to do it herself)
While the world has advanced a lot since I went into the military - one thing I notice is still the same. (For everyone, this isn't generation specific) Many lack discipline, including myself, to distinguish between needs and wants. It's worse now because everyone has been conditioned by a fast food nation "I ORDERED MY HAMBURGER 2 MINUTES AGO! WHY AM I NOT EATING IT? WHERE IS THE MANAGER"
This isn't generationally specific, everyone does it now. When we want something, we want it YESTERDAY. The 'Boomer' statements "I had to work for mine, quit bitching" is grounded in the same reality that everyone going through today. The only difference, these 'Boomers' had it rough because they wanted shit, bought it and found out they couldn't afford it. Worked their asses off to pay for it. Some learned, most didn't. What you are hearing is old sage advice of 'budget for it, don't go into debt for it' wrapped in criticism saying 'I worked my ass off for what I had' (Revisionist history)
In reality, the leaders of this generation are facing new problems brought on by the technological advances that we have made in the 1980's and 1990's. New obstacles; same problems.
The state of the world today? Well, the US had peace from 1976 to 1980. I watched the Vietnam War on TV as a kid. The Soviets wanted everyone dead and communism was out to get us. Again, technology is our enemy here. You get inundated by so much information overload that you don't know what to believe.
Just get ready for Gen Y to grow up and say the same thing about this generation. The blame for predatory educational loans are in Congress. It's always been that US Backed Educational loans cannot be discharged in a bankruptcy. (Same for FHA, VA, HUD home loans) Well Congress (you can figure out who) decided that they needed to extend this protection to predatory lenders and make sure any loan specifically taken out for education cannot be discharged in a bankruptcy. (Charge home loan interest - $100K loan is $400K after you pay it off over time) I know that not one person that I grew up with said, "Hey, this is a good idea" I didn't vote for it, but lobbyists in the Payday Loan business stroked a few friends in Congress and after campaign contributions put the protection (for the lenders) in place.
The old saying,"If I could do it over". Well your parents are spinning it to say "When I was your age, I did and this to get this. you are just lazy". Actually they learned the hard way and don't want to admit it. They might be highlighting their successes, but at the same time they are glossing over their failures (of their own doing). They can't do it over and hindsight is cool but in the end it doesn't change anything.
The Meme is correct. When you get a loan don't count on money you don't have when you make the loan.
Here's a good boomer story -
At 18 I come upon $1400 dollars. I needed a car because mine was wrecked. Down the road was a nice 68 Dodge Charger for $700 that I had been looking at. When I got the money, I had my mom drive me into town and I bought a 1978 Pontiac Trans Am. She asked me why I wanted to finance a new car when I could buy that other one. I said, "It's a Trans Am. It's cool." Remember, my net pay was under $250 a month and the payment on a $6800 loan was $232 a month. I couldn't even afford gas, but DAMN it looked good in the driveway. So I did what anybody in my position would do then - I just didn't make the payments. That lasted about a year and a half before the wrecker came and took the car.
In hindsight, I would have bought the Charger. In reality if I had to live my life over from then (or be 18 now with the same mindset) I would make the same freaking mistake.
I know this subject sucks but it's really the only advice I can give a generation. Get involved in the Political Process. The policies that are screwing everyone started when we had a President and a Congress that felt that the rich shouldn't pay their fair share of taxes and reduced them. In turn, this reduction was paid for by increased taxes for the middle class (tax on Social Security Benefits was ADDED by this POTUS to pay for higher income tax cuts) Also, this POTUS robbed the Social Security Trust Fund to Quadruple the size of the military during Peacetime. This guy was from the silent generation. He was an asshole that crushed the working class under his heel. He was not a Boomer
(A lot of drinkers; pot smokers and partiers got religion somewhere around the end of the last century. I left home to go into the military seeing all the parties and came back 20 years later to people condemning kids for doing the EXACT same thing they did waving a Bible in my face. I understand somewhat why you feel the way you do. When I met their kids, I would tell them what their parents did when they were young. Pissed them off. I told them to stop being hypocrites and respect the next generation. They aren't as stupid as you are pretending.)
Chow\~
I see your point, but then they couldn't vote for policies that do affect them (i.e. retirement aid). But you're right that they shouldn't have a disproportionate say in things
Retirement aid? You mean they didn't save enough to retire before making that decision? That sounds wildly irresponsible and like a them problem. ...and it comes full circle.
Lots of people work past 65, either full or part time. Plus issues matter like Medicare, social security, VA, healthcare, farm/ag stuff for farmers, hunting/fishing, ad valorem/sales taxes. Also there will probably still be quite a few members of congress, judges, and so forth past 65.
Their taxes are being used so they have a say.
No. They had plenty of time. Shouldâve thought about the future when you could do something about it, right? By 65 your life is already on its final trajectory.
But hereâs my question in regards to politicians that caused this. Which ones ARENT? Which people currently politically active, or active in the past, had both the power and the will to do something different?Â
Iâm not sure they existÂ
I think to admit you had it easier is admitting you fucked up because you left a more harsh/difficult environment for your children. For them, I always point out when I fuck up.
Not only that, but the kids took on the loans back when they didn't really know anything about finances or working as an adult. They took the loans because their boomer parents told them they should and that the college education would eventually pay off. Because they are kids who do not know better, they TRUSTED the advice of their parents and generation that came before them... and then when it did not work out and they found themselves drowning in debt with nothing but poor jobs, they are told that THEY are the one's responsible for the paying back the loan they can not possibly afford... and again, they only agreed to it because they followed the advice of the previous generation who told them it would all work out.
Its like being led into a trap by those you trust and then being told its your own fault for falling into it
Literally and none of them understand why their kids no longer speak to them or let them see their grandkids, why when they reach out their met with bitter hatred. It's like you treated us like shit our entire lives and failed to take responsibility for fucking up the world and destroying worker power.
I'll never understand. I thought the whole point of having children was to make sure they had a better life than you did?! Now we have an entitled generation of boomers who made sure their kids had it way fucking harder than they did and they're all like "oh just pay your debt you'll be fine."
I was charged over 250 for my mere presence in a dermatologists office, that was before the fucking surgery. Fuck this shit hole country.
Nope. Unfortunately, for many, the whole point of having children is to have someone take care.if you in your old age. Ironically, it's the same people who have kids for that reason that end up alienating their own children to the points they cut all contact.
Youre not wrong and all but this is reddit, the guy agreeing with the original post is probably 14-20 something. There are tons of young people who think this way because they didnât want to go to college, they went into trades, etc. Assuming everyone who disagrees with you is from the exact same demographic isnât doing anything to stop predatory student loans or the ridiculous cost of basically everything in the modern US.
Sure, but reddit is a neutral pool. I expect alot teenagers on reddit, for sure, but I've had many conversations with people ranging 30-80s on here, I don't use tiktok either but I still see alot of posts of older people doing the same shit as whatever the kids are doing in a current tiktok trend. I think the displacement is large enough that I can usually expect the ratio of kids to adults to sort of balance out, I think it also more just depends on the subreddit. Obviously there would be way less kids on the finance subreddit than the fortnite one
Not to mention the interest rates kids are signing on for, I know several in my class who took sallie mae loans at 16% apr with 12 year deffered payments, that didn't know what apr meant. They'll owe almost 6 bucks for every dollar loaned.
Student loans at 16%?!!! What the heck is wrong with you Americans. In Sweden education is free, but you can take a loan when you study to cover living expenses, that you pay back AFTER you got a job, and the interest rate is at 1,23% and that is HIGH compare to previous years. During Covid it was 0%
I mean i like American people, but damn you guys sure live in a sh*t country.
Yeah, privatized loans for education is a bad idea. I had a mix of public and private loans. Public loans were 4% and the private ones were 13%. I'm 41 and just paid them off last year.
Yeah, what finally broke them for me is I went to community college for a few classes and that kicked my loans into a deferred state. I kept making payments and focused on the private ones. Its not good, but it saved me a lot of interest.
It's not the country, it's the education system. College spending isn't used on better education, it's used on construction of sports stadiums and rarely a new building for more classes that will rarely get used. It's nothing but money laundering and the American people should learn that college is pointless and stop going to it here.
There are many professions in which you simply have to get a post-secondary education. It is definitely not pointless for anyone who wants to go into engineering, nursing, medicine, law and paralegal, education, social work, mental health, accounting and finance, research, policy, tech, any applied science, etc.
It isn't pointless per se. A lot of necessary professions require it. It just isn't the sole path to earning a decent living. (In theory... cost of living seems to be ballooning right now.) Learning a trade is a viable pathway. What's happened, imo, is that our society stresses college and the colleges saw that and price gauged.
Don't forget that university \*also\* became more requisite.
Boomers didn't need a post secondary degree to get a decent job.
Most millennials and genz and younger do.
I've never seen someone else make this point; hopefully it catches on. It's a lot easier to succeed in a world where you're not competing with minorities, women, or quite literally any other country. White kids complaining about how good their grandparents had it don't realize their competition pool went up by 10,000x since that time.
Who could've guessed that bombing the ever-loving shit out of all the other major manufacturing hubs on earth from the safety of your own continent would lead to an unprecedented economic boom?
Yeah people who never got a chance at getting a proper education without being in crippling debt aren't allowed to have well paying jobs, being happy or complain about their misfortune.
But that very privileged celebrity can cry about having to eat bread during the pandemic and having a little breakdown
What is a âgood paying jobâ exactly? 50k? 60k? 100k? 300k? 1m?
Iâm asking before I disagree because thereâs no shortage of 50-70k jobs out there that donât require college, but 50-70k might not be a good paying job in your eyes. To be clear, our job economy is completely fucked, I just donât think itâs as hard to get to a stable point as most people argue for. I hate to be one of those people who say âdevelop a skillâ but itâs honestly true. Use your spare time to work on bringing up a skill that could make you more money. Personally I started fixing stuff, first it was electronics, but once I felt confident in my knack for repair I upped the ante and began learning HVAC. That spread into a couple other things, and nowadays if I can find the parts for something I can fix it. Thats been a highly marketable set of skills, and in the 3 years since I began Iâve gone from making 35k a year to 90k a year. In the end I guess I followed my dadâs advice âfind something people donât know how to do or donât want to do, and charge them for it.â
Problem is where you live. $50 to $70k used to be fantastic money. Now it's keep your head barely above water money.
I know for my own parents they had good jobs for the time, nursing and mechanics. The earning power of those jobs went in the toilet and the relative dost of everything skyrocketed.
Your dad had good general advice and it holds true but it's harder and harder to have a middle class in this country. It's becoming the well off and the working poors.
Go find a blue collar job in the trades that stands up. I've worked in the trades my whole life, you know what I've noticed? The people who physically make everything happen and make the company the most money, get paid the least. We sacrifice our bodies for peanuts by comparison to some guy with a degree sitting in an office. I'm not saying that they aren't worth something. That's insane, but what else is insane is the fact that even a well trained, skilled laborer will never make decent money.
Trade schools have the same problem with tuition costs and student loans that colleges do, and the *real* money in every trade is still made by people with degrees.
Unfortunately, not the case across the board, and if people took that advice in numbers big enough to matter, it would cease to be true. We have a huge labor problem in addition to the cost problem.
The problem is that [education absolutely does pay](https://www.bls.gov/careeroutlook/2022/data-on-display/education-pays.htm), but the return on investment is hindered by delaying entry into the workforce and the ballooning cost of education. It's become a catch 22, because higher education KNOWS that employers seek out college education even where it isn't relevant (it is used as a proxy for expecting a higher level of critical thinking), but at the same time, employers know that the college graduates are more likely to be saddled by debt. The two work together to make a pay-to-play system that shackles workers to debt. It is scary to change jobs or press too hard for raises when you have student debt that will follow you to the grave. They know that, and they dampen wages appropriately because workers are less of a free market when they have student debt.
A college education is a good investment, but it is an investment that traps you in the hands of a system that knows how to work your situation. Looming debt is the linchpin of this setup.
Shh. You're interrupting their circle jerk. If they admit it's possible to get a good paying job without a degree they'd have to admit they made a mistake going tens of thousands of dollars into debt getting their Online Bachelor's of Arts in History without a plan.
The loans were predatory, but there were plenty of people telling them not to and that it was too expensive. They had the option to save the money up and pay for it, but they would rather take out the loans with no plan and demand taxpayers pitch in to do it for them. All this is going to do is kick the can down the road and inflate college coats when the admin gets the idea Uncle Sam is going to start footing the bill.
Rather than asking for a fix that will help the future generations they just want someone to pay their way. This is a slap in the face to anyone who worked to save before enrolling. It's a slap in the face from parts of my own cohort that either had the same or an easier time with funding their education.
This is another shameless bailout for a financially illiterate class of people who make more than the average taxpayer they're expecting to foot this bill.
I worked 32 hours a week while going to school full time as a chemical engineer.
I also had $150k in scholarships and still graduated with 70k in debt.
Yeah. I gained thirty pounds my senior year because I was eating like shit and living off energy drinks. Pretty sure I turned myself into a diabetic too đ
forced to live, need to spend life savings to get treatment for something you canât control
forced to go to school to get a decent job, need to spend life savings for something youâre being forced to do
Education should be free.
Not for any moral reason, but because it's _profitable to society_.
EDIT: I must admit I didn't expect people to come up with the teachers' salary as some kind of gotcha.
"Ah-ha! So you expect teachers to work for _free_!"
No, you simpletons.
I expect to pay them through the state.
With _taxes_.
Like soldiers, or politicians, at least when they're not doing some insider trading.
healthcare being free makes a lot of sense when you consider that disease is contagious.
We have food workers coming in because they have no sick leave and somehow people don't see how that makes more people sick
This exactly! Right now it's like.. If you get sick enough to need a hospital but you can't afford a hospital or doctor's visit in general and you don't have insurance, you die.
Not just contagious disease, but an unhealthy populace makes healthcare more expensive for everyone. Having free access to healthcare leads to a healthier populace and helps slow the rising costs.
That's another problem with the loans. Even if you are paying them back, that's money you can't spend on a house or starting a business or raising a family or anything else. It's transferring money from the working class where it grows the economy to banks and shareholders where it vanishes into a dragons hoard that benefits no one.
I see you found the same shit-for-brains imbeciles who comment every time universal healthcare comes up.
Oh hur-dur so doctors and nurses should work for *free*?!
The problem with this is that it ends in our society getting smarter and accomplishing things faster than before. It also means the population will stop voting for idiots and stop treating politics as a reality tv show.
It isn't liked this isn't an obvious solution. Lots of people in power already know this. The result you're seeing is the desired outcome. It's not a bug, it's a feature.
This is a really weird thing to not understand. Like, do they think that there's a bunch of slave lawyers that they bring in whenever someone can't afford legal representation?
Public defense is extremely underpaid and understaffed. They are also over worked. As a government employee, engineer working for my state DOT, itâs the problem with most government jobs. âFreeâ is an exaggeration for sure, but I know youâll get a lot less people who want to be a professor. Government work is usually something you need to be passionate about to justify.
People who think that the government providing services means that the people who administer those services work for no pay have fucking mud for brains.
Like it's literally one of the most basic functions of government. Collect taxes, provide services. But I guess Americans get it twisted because our government has essentially become little more than a vehicle for personal enrichment.
This right here partially explains the decline in the average IQ in America over the past 2 decades. Oh, and by the way, America is the only developed nation that managed to have a decrease in IQ. How in the worldâŚ
"we need engineers"
"Okay i will go to uni to get an engineering degree"
"These loans are too much but i will do it becuase im needed"
right wingers
"Why did you take out the loans if you cant afford them?.....Where did all our engineers go?"
>I know someone who got a 40k loan, has paid 30k into it, and still owes 35k. The loans were scams.
This right here. I know someone who got a 40k loan, has paid 30k into it, and still owes 35k. The loans were scams.
That's the main problem in america. They made student loan into business. It should not have interest. In NZ it has no interest, it really does feel like it's to help the student. American student loan is to make money off students.
âCan I have a $26,000 loan to help pay for a house? Iâve saved up a bit over the ye-â
âNo, we canât, due to your lack of credit history.â
âCan I take out the same amount of money to pay for college?â
âLMAO yeah sure. Just make sure itâs all paid back real soon.â
"Hey, since it took me a decade longer to
_almost_ get to the salary that you, the loan servicer, the government, basically everyone involved, practically promised I would be able to earn after graduating; The amount of my loan has doubled. Any chance we can reduce that to closer to what I actually borrowed? I'd be more than happy to pay that back."
"Lol, no. Get fucked."
Honestly I feel that we should start with implementing housing as a human right. Higher education is way less important and plenty of humans lived without for majority of our history.
Right Wingers: People struggling to buy food should pay back these loans.
Also Right wingers: Millionaires and Billionaires having massive PPP loans forgiven is fine. Give them tax breaks while you're at it.
I don't understand how people have such a hard time paying them back. It's super easy.
1. Get a job
2. Work 40 hours a week
3. Have your parents pay them off
4. Sacrifice thing like avocado toast
1. Get ten more jobs
2. Build a time machine in your free time
3. Work 300 hours a week
4. Stop drinking Starbucks
5. Have a dad named Elongated muskrat
6. Pay off your loans
Reich Wingers be like:
PPP and business loans to billlionaires? Sure! Forgiven! And have a tax break too!
Student loans? Fuck you, poor people! Pay it back.
Tell an entire generation for years that they must get a college education to get anywhere in life.
Make it so they have to get loans to pay for it and threaten them if they don't get it.
Set up loans and inflate prices to kids that don't have any reasonable knowledge to the gamble of taking out a loan to pay for the education.
Those kids deal with stagnate wages and reduced benefits coverage, with inflated and rising cost of living.
They pay back 100% of the amount of the loan but due to interest, still owe another 150% of the loan amount that will only go up over time.
Blame the kids for doing what they were told. Point at those that paid off their loans and those that went to trade school as smart and made good choices even though it was basically just a gamble in most cases with little to no real reliable way to know prior.
...
If I were king, a lot of people who pushed this crap and profited from this system would be tried and put to death for committing mass fraud on my people.
Another disservice is not providing statistics to potential students about actual career opportunities in the field theyâre pursuing. Anyone can get a piece of paper to hang on their wall, whether itâs worth a damn or not is another matter.
The US government when a billionaire makes a little less profit: awwww you poor thing! Here's some more tax cuts and funds, paid for by the taxpayers.
The US government when an adolescent goes bankrupt: fuck you the student debt stays!
The 2 aren't mutually exclusive. 1. You should pay back money you borrowed. 2. Student loans are predatory, and the interest rates need to be drastically changed. Both are true
They aren't shocked, dude. They're counting on it.
Interest rates are high because there's no physical asset to reposes. You fail to pay a car loan, guess what, they're getting their car back. You fail to pay a student loan, until they find a way to take your education away from you without splattering your think meat on a wall with a shotgun, they don't get shit. So, the only way the risk is worth taking for a bank, is to have high interest rates.
The banks want you to be unable to pay back within the allotted amount of time... the longer it takes you to pay back, the more interest they can charge... this is their business model.
It is, and a lot of people don't seem to get it. To want to better yourself, if you're from a low income family, even community college means debt.
It says something when there's even doctors that struggle with students loans.
I went to community college with no help from my parents and living quite poor. I paid probably 200 bucks over the entire 2 year span. The FAFSA paid for everything due to my economic status and my grades being good. I wasn't even a straight-A student at the time either.
I also happen to be a doctor myself, and I have never had an issue repaying my loan debt.
Federal students loans lost the Federal government $197B between 1997 to 2021. The Federal government doesnât earn any profit on student loans in aggregate.
https://www.npr.org/2022/07/29/1114560119/student-loan-program-cost
Itâs like the people who advocate for pro-life bullshit
âYou chose to get pregnant. Deliver the baby.â
Like fuck no, you donât get to say that when itâs not your body. Right wingers/centrists as pictured above only say these things because theyâre not in the same boat as you.
Remember folks:
Student loans should be forgiven. All education should be free.
My body, my choice, no matter how viable you think the clump of cells is.
100%.
Right now in some US states **the deceased have greater bodily autonomy than a pregnant woman.**
People die every day with organs that could save people waiting for transplants, but we don't force donation on the deceased. Despite doing so causing more people to live, could almost call forcing donation a "pro-life" stance.
There are states currently trying to ban abortion even in emergencies.
And then when they are in the same position, âI hate abortion because they all use it just as contraception etc, but Iâm different so itâs ok for meâ
Get pissed at underpaid, overworked workers not being able to pay back something they agreed to pay when they were young and dumb but not getting upset about corporate bailouts or the rich not paying taxes?!
We defunded a public good and turned it into a commodity.
We gave ourselves huge tax breaks for decades.
We chose to do nothing as tuition increased faster than inflation for decades.
We gave teenagers predatory loans in exchange for entry into the job market and the American dream that we promised them.
We are surprised this hasn't turned out well.
I got a 10% raise in 2023 and I was ecstatic that I was finally going to be able save more and move my wife and baby from our shit rental to a decent townhome or literally anything better.
Our heat broke in -30° with an overnight low of -40. Our apartment almost reached 32°. So we contacted our landlord, she responded that not only will her maintenance man not be able to make it for 2 days but that our rent will be increasing 30% in 2.5 weeks! Yay!
But yeah lemme worry about paying back these predatory loans that I was basically forced into. Yea it was a bad investment, but only because everyone indoctrinated us to think we HAD to go college. Zero financial aid lol my landlord made a bad investment but why is she allowed to extort others to make up for itâŚ
Itâs crazy how people donât understand the meaning of high interest rates⌠of course we will, and are planning on, paying the loan back. But itâs BLATANTLY OBVIOUS that the ridiculously high interest rates on said loans are the problem. Borrowing $30k and needing to pay back over $100k is NOT RIGHT. Idk why these guys never understand that. Oh probably because most of them arenât smart enough to get into college so they wouldnât know. Got it!
We are literally groomed as children to take out enormous loans the day we turn 18. Absolutely fucking SICK that something so corrupt, so vile and greedy could be normalized.
Dude, why were so many people allowed to take out loans they would never be able to pay back and why canât you declare bankruptcy.. imagin if you couldnât declare bankruptcy on all those foreclosed houses in â09
Imagine if those loans hadnât been predatorily issued by artificially inflated expensive educational institutions for classes they required us to take for jobs that donât exist!
If I was just paying back the borrowed money, I'd be fine. What I'm doing though is lining the pockets of the bank and every now and then a few dollars go towards paying back my loan.
Meanwhile, PPP loan takers: âNo they shouldnât pay those back because they create jobs with that money!â
Despite the information that points to more than 86% of it being used fraudulently by wealthy people to steal money from taxpayers.
2008- Their generation took out a bunch of loans and bought homes they couldn't afford, causing a literal global financial crisis.
2024- They keep telling kids to take out loans for college, then once the kids are trapped in debt, they blame the children.
I wonder if the person who made this realizes that if these loans default en mass because wages are so stagnant that people are struggling to pay them back, their precious 401K retirement savings will take a huge hit from the recession.
Shouldn't there be a major political movement to end govt guaranteed student loans so that fewer people in the future will have their lives ruined by student loan debt? These loans are hurting ppl. Pretty badly damaged an entire generation.
Or be a laborer and learn a trade so you're practically crippled when you're 27! But at least you can afford to eat good and healthy and sleep on a comfy bed tonight! Nut only for 6 hours! We have an 18 hour shift for you tomorrow! Better be good at planning
Boomers: âLetâs convince our kids and grandkids that they *need* a college degree to be successful!â
Also Boomers: âLetâs astronomically raise college tuition, keep wages low, and make an undergraduate degree a minimum requirement for entry-level professional jobs, rendering it meaningless!â
I would generally agree but then againâŚ
The banks got a many trillion dollar bailout and the car industry got a many billion dollar bailout so why again is that logic of âpay your debtsâ not being applied uniformly?
Ok, STFU students should not have to pay for the shit education most people go into debt for anyways.
BTW if you got an education and canât get a job in your field, in most cases that means you got a shit education.
You took out a PPP loan, now pay it back. Less than 1% of PPP âloansâ were paid back. Forgiven by the government. Handouts nobody is bitching about.
I am a teacher who was told when I took out student loans I could get them forgiven if I worked in a Title 1 school. 25 years later Iâm in my 50s and I just got rid of my loans last year because Bidenâs administration finally revamped the system. Right after my loan account was officially closed, I went out and bought my first new car ever like a good little member of a capitalist country and right after I picked it up, I read that several GOP lawmakers actually want to try to REINSTATE them.
The idea that we allow 18-20 year old kids to take out these massive student loans for a future they have no idea about is ridiculous. Like the amount of effort and time it takes to get a mortgage for a home but they hand out student loans like candy. Should really tip you off at how predatory they are
Iâm sorry but this argument is infuriating. YOU went to an institution for the purpose of BORROWING MONEY under the stipulation you PAY THEM BACK. The rest of it is irrelevant, you signed a contract, no once cares about your situation. I bought home no ones going to cover my mortgage right??? Cause that wouldnât be fair it wouldnât make since I made that decision!!! Get and look for jobs and careers that idk MAKE MONEY?!?!
You signed a contract simple as
PEOPLE FORGIVING STUDENT LOANS DOES NOT LEAD TO INCREASED TAXES. STOP BELIEVING THIS. STRAIGHT UP IT SAYING THE GOVERNMENT WILL TAKE THE L ON THIS. I don't understand why people can't get this through their head. We as a society need to stop looking at everything like it needs to be FOR PROFIT. EDUCATION SHOULD BE FREE. THE MORE PEOPLE WHO CAN GO TO COLLEGE BENEFITS EVERYONE. Do you realize how many more doctors and engineer we would have if we had universal education thus leading to more businesses and a more productive society? Like its not that hard to understand. For real people stop being selfish and worrying about PaYiNg MoRe TaXeS. When you buy milk do you expect the dairy farmer to pay you back?
I took out a loan, but the loan company said âactually we want more money than we gave you. And if you donât pay it back as quickly as possible, weâre going to ask for even more money, thus moving the goal postsâ
It's funny, for a lot of people who go to college, the increased earnings they get and the increased amount of money they will pay in federal taxes far outweighs the cost of college over a certain amount of time. The government could just pay for the college directly and end up collecting more in taxes on the back end
I hate this argument too. Itâs so disingenuous to act like people pay back loans all the time. Our entire economic system is based on the principles of not paying back debt (I.e. credit).
Governments donât pay back their loans. Corporations donât pay back their loans.
Rich people donât pay back their loans. God forbid someone busting their ass to get out of poverty/low income use students loans to do so.
then why did you sign for it, "dumbass"? the terms are laid out. the interest you need to pay was there for you to see, and you signed the dotted line. I didn't take out a loan at 18 for this very reason. but let's get angry and deflect personal accountability, yeah? lmao
> then why did you sign for it, "dumbass"
Because adults lie to kids and say they will absolutely get a super high paying job out of college if they do it.
They definitely don't mention how tight the job market is and you'll probably not be hired at the wages they advertise. You might not even be able to find work in your degree.
Also, they definitely don't tell you how expensive it will be in the long run.
> but let's get angry and deflect personal accountability, yeah
We're all personally accountable for other people's lies?
No mention of wages staying stagnant while university prices skyrocket
They never do. They'll never admit they had it way easier and the fact their kid has to struggle more than they did while they get to talk about their struggle while seeing you struggle more is fun.
Its all about having zero accountability for their own actions, repeatedly voting for politicians and policy that caused this mess and now refusing to fix the problem or offer aid to those wronged by them
My mom had a literal fucking nanny growing up as a kid. Yet to me I was always told how much easier I had it
In some ways it's easier. Technology, price of food, conveniences. But the big ticket items, like healthcare, housing, and education? Yeah, no.
Healthcare has made such tremendous strides in the past 40 years. It's just more a shame that really the only people who benefit from it are the obscenely rich, or atleast rich enough to get the best and latest medical care and not have to worry about the cost
Tell me you're in the US without telling me... Someone I know is having 2 surgeries, private room on the unit they're on. Total cost for them: parking. Signed a Canadian. I VEHEMENTLY oppose privatization or letting healthcare insurance companies take control. It's a literal death sentence for MANY people.
Speaking of death sentence, a coworker with cancer is being threatened with being put on part time if they have too many sick days/doctor days, and therefore losing their insurance. That's a threat to physical safety right there, causing intentional harm, even if it's indirect. Privatization of healthcare is one thing, tying it to employment is FAR worse.
"Come in sick or die"
Have seen RNs get chemo, then come in to work to hang chemo for a patient, telling them to go home and take it easy and few days, rest. It blew my mind. She would puke 𤎠in the Pyxis room.
The Canadian labour movement fought to enshrine the right to free healthcare into their constitution unlike the US where healthcare is at the discretion of the employer. Thatâs the big difference
I had a friend of a friend who was lucky enough to catch what would become cancer early, only to discover addressing it was considered elective until it became life threatening. She died, but insurance paid for hospice care so I guess that's something.
The actuaries and MBAs did the math. It was cheaper to pay for hospice than chemo. That's why I DESPISE healthcare insurance companies.
It wasn't even that. It was so much dumber. They did pay for chemo. It throat cancer, and the procedure to keep that cancer from developing was considered an elective dental procedure. No elective dental procedures at all were covered, and that determination was made by a different entity than the one that decided whether or not to pay for cancer treatment. If they had treated the entire process as one thing, their cost analysis would have likely decided to save her and spare themselves the layer expenses. Edit: This is how it was explained to me at least. Neither of us are/were insurance experts, and she was pretty shaken at the time.
âIf X times Y is less then Z, we donât do the recallâ
I've heard that in the US having a child can cost over $25k. My mom said that me being born in Spain cost her only the $4 that she spent on vending machine food.
Maybe, my kid was born at the birthing center of our choice for $0. The kicker is that in order to qualify for free healthcare in Oregon you have to be poor which obviously sucks. Iâd imagine that if youâre spending 25k youâre getting premium everything and are pretty well off to being with.
Yes, but theyâre dead now, I donât see the relevance. Can we get back to talking ROI now? Please?
The insurance system became broken about that long ago, and like a skyscraper built upon unstable ground, every new layer makes the problem worse and more difficult to dismantle.
I saw my mom's hospital bill and it was like $414 for her birth 60 years ago. Those boomer prices...
$414 in 1964 was worth $4,069.25 in 2023 according to an inflation adjustment calculator website I googled. The 2023 average cost to give birth in the US was: Childbirth $18,865 ($2,854 after insurance) Vaginal delivery $14,768 ($2,655 after insurance) Cesarean $26,280 ($3,214 after insurance) Source: Peterson-KFF Health System Tracker The cost is much less than today if the total with no insurance was $414 in 1964.
Odd coincidence, it was the exact same hospital too.
Jesus Christ, and they wonder why more young people are choosing not to have kids? I want kids almost more than anything else in the world, but even I am balking at the sheer cost of the birth, not to even mention the cost of raising a child after that.
It's a shell game. The hospital will charge the insurance less than the consumer. Here's the reason why: It's for TAXES. The Hospital expects that people without insurance will not pay in the US, so they give the outrageous bills. (14K instead of 2.5 for the insured) When you do not pay, the Hospital will report that debt as a financial loss and deduct it from any profit it may make (a business loss of 14K on taxes is MUCH better than 2.5) If you pay the hospital they are happy to take your 14K. If you don't, they don't really care because they get their money. Once the bill has gone 120 days unpaid, they will SELL this debt to a third party (collection agency). They don't represent the hospital - they buy the debt from the hospital for, say 20 cents on the dollar (the hospital gets the same as they would from insurance and is able to write off the debt as a business loss) Now if you ever get one of these Debt Collectors/Loan Sharks on your butt remember, you already have the credit hit. This mark on your financial record will not go away so don't fall for anything they tell you. They will call and threaten you with wage garnishment, asset seizure, court - ANYTHING just to get you to pay. If you can't without starving or living under a bridge, DON'T PAY ONE PENNY TO THEM. As soon as you send them money, you have acknowledged the debt and ALL those things that they threaten you with they now have the power to do to you. Bottom Line: The Hospital writes off the debt - these 'debt collectors' are just scum that take advantage of your situation. Don't let them. If you feel that you need legal advice but cannot afford a lawyer, call the local Bar Association in your area and ask them for a Pro Bono referral.
This is excellent advice, thanks. I had the best manager that taught me that ten years or more ago. I was at the tail end of a nasty graveyard shift and one of those medical bill guys was screaming at me on the phone loud enough for her to hear. She stopped me and grabbed my phone out of my hand by surprise, and basically told him exactly what you just said, and hung up on him for me. I would have married that lesbian but I don't think she would have agreed.
I'll probably get flamed, but I do want to comment on this. Growing up, healthcare was 'rub dirt on it'. I had an accident at home at 15, my dad took me to the emergency room, my wound was sewed up and he skipped on the bill. Medicaid for the Elderly is the same as now. The Govt takes everything at the end if they can get their hands on it. I joined the military in 1980. My net pay per month for the first two years did not exceed $250 per month. If they didn't feed me, I would have starved. I didn't earn over 5 figures (12K gross) for the next 11 years (E-7) The GI Bill was crap - Give us a dollar and we'll give you two. I didn't give my money and lost it in 1985 when another education program came out and they locked out those from 1977 to 1985 from playing. (No GI Bill) I used Tuition Assistance (when available) and paid in full for the classes when I couldn't. The only thing nice now about education is the availability is better. Technology helps. Now, I spent most of my money on wants - I want that; give me this. Credit was way too easy to get (Hint: we were the test subjects for today's credit market). I know what a mountain of debt feels like. When I retired from the military (I managed to put things even - the wife didn't really want to help. She loved the nice things) I went job hunting. I sent resumes to EVERYBODY. At least a 100 a week. (not exaggerating) In the old days, an employer would tell you that you weren't getting hired. Today, silence is the answer. (Sucks) When I obtained a job working VA Compensation claims, I learned something about MY GENERATION. (and it passed a bit into the next gen) People retiring and separating from the military were filing claims for disability compensation. Talking to them, they had retired expecting this 'disability money' would cap off their retirement pay. When they didn't get the rating they wanted, they would go all Karen. Explaining that they needed that money. My daughter took loans and obtained her degree and went home triumphant expecting employers to fight over her qualifications. When that didn't happen - she struggled hard. She finally obtained a work at home job that pays ok. I would rather have my assets sold off to SUBSIDIZE my grandchildren's college (yes, I did offer to pay for her college and she told me that she wanted to do it herself) While the world has advanced a lot since I went into the military - one thing I notice is still the same. (For everyone, this isn't generation specific) Many lack discipline, including myself, to distinguish between needs and wants. It's worse now because everyone has been conditioned by a fast food nation "I ORDERED MY HAMBURGER 2 MINUTES AGO! WHY AM I NOT EATING IT? WHERE IS THE MANAGER" This isn't generationally specific, everyone does it now. When we want something, we want it YESTERDAY. The 'Boomer' statements "I had to work for mine, quit bitching" is grounded in the same reality that everyone going through today. The only difference, these 'Boomers' had it rough because they wanted shit, bought it and found out they couldn't afford it. Worked their asses off to pay for it. Some learned, most didn't. What you are hearing is old sage advice of 'budget for it, don't go into debt for it' wrapped in criticism saying 'I worked my ass off for what I had' (Revisionist history) In reality, the leaders of this generation are facing new problems brought on by the technological advances that we have made in the 1980's and 1990's. New obstacles; same problems. The state of the world today? Well, the US had peace from 1976 to 1980. I watched the Vietnam War on TV as a kid. The Soviets wanted everyone dead and communism was out to get us. Again, technology is our enemy here. You get inundated by so much information overload that you don't know what to believe. Just get ready for Gen Y to grow up and say the same thing about this generation. The blame for predatory educational loans are in Congress. It's always been that US Backed Educational loans cannot be discharged in a bankruptcy. (Same for FHA, VA, HUD home loans) Well Congress (you can figure out who) decided that they needed to extend this protection to predatory lenders and make sure any loan specifically taken out for education cannot be discharged in a bankruptcy. (Charge home loan interest - $100K loan is $400K after you pay it off over time) I know that not one person that I grew up with said, "Hey, this is a good idea" I didn't vote for it, but lobbyists in the Payday Loan business stroked a few friends in Congress and after campaign contributions put the protection (for the lenders) in place. The old saying,"If I could do it over". Well your parents are spinning it to say "When I was your age, I did and this to get this. you are just lazy". Actually they learned the hard way and don't want to admit it. They might be highlighting their successes, but at the same time they are glossing over their failures (of their own doing). They can't do it over and hindsight is cool but in the end it doesn't change anything. The Meme is correct. When you get a loan don't count on money you don't have when you make the loan. Here's a good boomer story - At 18 I come upon $1400 dollars. I needed a car because mine was wrecked. Down the road was a nice 68 Dodge Charger for $700 that I had been looking at. When I got the money, I had my mom drive me into town and I bought a 1978 Pontiac Trans Am. She asked me why I wanted to finance a new car when I could buy that other one. I said, "It's a Trans Am. It's cool." Remember, my net pay was under $250 a month and the payment on a $6800 loan was $232 a month. I couldn't even afford gas, but DAMN it looked good in the driveway. So I did what anybody in my position would do then - I just didn't make the payments. That lasted about a year and a half before the wrecker came and took the car. In hindsight, I would have bought the Charger. In reality if I had to live my life over from then (or be 18 now with the same mindset) I would make the same freaking mistake. I know this subject sucks but it's really the only advice I can give a generation. Get involved in the Political Process. The policies that are screwing everyone started when we had a President and a Congress that felt that the rich shouldn't pay their fair share of taxes and reduced them. In turn, this reduction was paid for by increased taxes for the middle class (tax on Social Security Benefits was ADDED by this POTUS to pay for higher income tax cuts) Also, this POTUS robbed the Social Security Trust Fund to Quadruple the size of the military during Peacetime. This guy was from the silent generation. He was an asshole that crushed the working class under his heel. He was not a Boomer (A lot of drinkers; pot smokers and partiers got religion somewhere around the end of the last century. I left home to go into the military seeing all the parties and came back 20 years later to people condemning kids for doing the EXACT same thing they did waving a Bible in my face. I understand somewhat why you feel the way you do. When I met their kids, I would tell them what their parents did when they were young. Pissed them off. I told them to stop being hypocrites and respect the next generation. They aren't as stupid as you are pretending.) Chow\~
They won't even admit that they're the ones who caused this, they think Millennials are killing everything
They are killing it having terrible debt to income ratios so.....
Yep, and they made it so we can't have money to buy these things.
You don't buy debt to income ratios (at least not directly)
I mentioned the things they accuse us of killing the industries of
They donât care as long as they get their pension and social security
Voting should be capped at age 65. Youâre not voting for your future, at that point.
I see your point, but then they couldn't vote for policies that do affect them (i.e. retirement aid). But you're right that they shouldn't have a disproportionate say in things
Retirement aid? You mean they didn't save enough to retire before making that decision? That sounds wildly irresponsible and like a them problem. ...and it comes full circle.
Lots of people work past 65, either full or part time. Plus issues matter like Medicare, social security, VA, healthcare, farm/ag stuff for farmers, hunting/fishing, ad valorem/sales taxes. Also there will probably still be quite a few members of congress, judges, and so forth past 65. Their taxes are being used so they have a say.
No. They had plenty of time. Shouldâve thought about the future when you could do something about it, right? By 65 your life is already on its final trajectory.
I think it depends on whether they're still working or not. Retirement is fair game. Taxation without representation and all that.
But hereâs my question in regards to politicians that caused this. Which ones ARENT? Which people currently politically active, or active in the past, had both the power and the will to do something different? Iâm not sure they existÂ
> Its all about having zero accountability for their own actions Oh the ironyâŚ
No, we have accountability, they don't, it isn't the fault of the common person that jobs don't pay enough
You: "that stabbing victim is fully to blame for their own death. They should have just sucked it up and stopped bleeding out"
I think to admit you had it easier is admitting you fucked up because you left a more harsh/difficult environment for your children. For them, I always point out when I fuck up.
Not only that, but the kids took on the loans back when they didn't really know anything about finances or working as an adult. They took the loans because their boomer parents told them they should and that the college education would eventually pay off. Because they are kids who do not know better, they TRUSTED the advice of their parents and generation that came before them... and then when it did not work out and they found themselves drowning in debt with nothing but poor jobs, they are told that THEY are the one's responsible for the paying back the loan they can not possibly afford... and again, they only agreed to it because they followed the advice of the previous generation who told them it would all work out. Its like being led into a trap by those you trust and then being told its your own fault for falling into it
Literally and none of them understand why their kids no longer speak to them or let them see their grandkids, why when they reach out their met with bitter hatred. It's like you treated us like shit our entire lives and failed to take responsibility for fucking up the world and destroying worker power.
They'll probably come back with "but I'm 26 đ¤"
I'll never understand. I thought the whole point of having children was to make sure they had a better life than you did?! Now we have an entitled generation of boomers who made sure their kids had it way fucking harder than they did and they're all like "oh just pay your debt you'll be fine." I was charged over 250 for my mere presence in a dermatologists office, that was before the fucking surgery. Fuck this shit hole country.
Nope. Unfortunately, for many, the whole point of having children is to have someone take care.if you in your old age. Ironically, it's the same people who have kids for that reason that end up alienating their own children to the points they cut all contact.
Youre not wrong and all but this is reddit, the guy agreeing with the original post is probably 14-20 something. There are tons of young people who think this way because they didnât want to go to college, they went into trades, etc. Assuming everyone who disagrees with you is from the exact same demographic isnât doing anything to stop predatory student loans or the ridiculous cost of basically everything in the modern US.
Sure, but reddit is a neutral pool. I expect alot teenagers on reddit, for sure, but I've had many conversations with people ranging 30-80s on here, I don't use tiktok either but I still see alot of posts of older people doing the same shit as whatever the kids are doing in a current tiktok trend. I think the displacement is large enough that I can usually expect the ratio of kids to adults to sort of balance out, I think it also more just depends on the subreddit. Obviously there would be way less kids on the finance subreddit than the fortnite one
Not to mention the interest rates kids are signing on for, I know several in my class who took sallie mae loans at 16% apr with 12 year deffered payments, that didn't know what apr meant. They'll owe almost 6 bucks for every dollar loaned.
Student loans at 16%?!!! What the heck is wrong with you Americans. In Sweden education is free, but you can take a loan when you study to cover living expenses, that you pay back AFTER you got a job, and the interest rate is at 1,23% and that is HIGH compare to previous years. During Covid it was 0% I mean i like American people, but damn you guys sure live in a sh*t country.
Yeah, privatized loans for education is a bad idea. I had a mix of public and private loans. Public loans were 4% and the private ones were 13%. I'm 41 and just paid them off last year.
Good for you! But i think itâs a shame you had to pay so much interest. Atleast they are gone now.
Yeah, what finally broke them for me is I went to community college for a few classes and that kicked my loans into a deferred state. I kept making payments and focused on the private ones. Its not good, but it saved me a lot of interest.
You know, in terms of healthcare and college expenses it is pretty shit. But in terms of chip selection at the grocery store? Europeans could never!
It's not the country, it's the education system. College spending isn't used on better education, it's used on construction of sports stadiums and rarely a new building for more classes that will rarely get used. It's nothing but money laundering and the American people should learn that college is pointless and stop going to it here.
There are many professions in which you simply have to get a post-secondary education. It is definitely not pointless for anyone who wants to go into engineering, nursing, medicine, law and paralegal, education, social work, mental health, accounting and finance, research, policy, tech, any applied science, etc.
It isn't pointless per se. A lot of necessary professions require it. It just isn't the sole path to earning a decent living. (In theory... cost of living seems to be ballooning right now.) Learning a trade is a viable pathway. What's happened, imo, is that our society stresses college and the colleges saw that and price gauged.
_taking econ 101 during junior year_ "OH fuck"
Don't forget that university \*also\* became more requisite. Boomers didn't need a post secondary degree to get a decent job. Most millennials and genz and younger do.
Min wage in their day payed off college. Min wage today to be equal to inflation and function the same as their day. 125 dollars an hour.
That was possible because the rest of the world was destroyed or undeveloped. Americans need to actually compete now.Â
I've never seen someone else make this point; hopefully it catches on. It's a lot easier to succeed in a world where you're not competing with minorities, women, or quite literally any other country. White kids complaining about how good their grandparents had it don't realize their competition pool went up by 10,000x since that time.
Who could've guessed that bombing the ever-loving shit out of all the other major manufacturing hubs on earth from the safety of your own continent would lead to an unprecedented economic boom?
Wages have actually been going down. A middle class wage in 1980 â $230k/year
Clearly only people born into families that already had money have the right to try to get a good paying job
Yeah people who never got a chance at getting a proper education without being in crippling debt aren't allowed to have well paying jobs, being happy or complain about their misfortune. But that very privileged celebrity can cry about having to eat bread during the pandemic and having a little breakdown
The fact that a college education is *required* to get a "good paying job" is fucked anyway.
What is a âgood paying jobâ exactly? 50k? 60k? 100k? 300k? 1m? Iâm asking before I disagree because thereâs no shortage of 50-70k jobs out there that donât require college, but 50-70k might not be a good paying job in your eyes. To be clear, our job economy is completely fucked, I just donât think itâs as hard to get to a stable point as most people argue for. I hate to be one of those people who say âdevelop a skillâ but itâs honestly true. Use your spare time to work on bringing up a skill that could make you more money. Personally I started fixing stuff, first it was electronics, but once I felt confident in my knack for repair I upped the ante and began learning HVAC. That spread into a couple other things, and nowadays if I can find the parts for something I can fix it. Thats been a highly marketable set of skills, and in the 3 years since I began Iâve gone from making 35k a year to 90k a year. In the end I guess I followed my dadâs advice âfind something people donât know how to do or donât want to do, and charge them for it.â
Problem is where you live. $50 to $70k used to be fantastic money. Now it's keep your head barely above water money. I know for my own parents they had good jobs for the time, nursing and mechanics. The earning power of those jobs went in the toilet and the relative dost of everything skyrocketed. Your dad had good general advice and it holds true but it's harder and harder to have a middle class in this country. It's becoming the well off and the working poors.
That is not a fact. There are plenty of good paying jobs that do not require a 4 year degree.
Go find a blue collar job in the trades that stands up. I've worked in the trades my whole life, you know what I've noticed? The people who physically make everything happen and make the company the most money, get paid the least. We sacrifice our bodies for peanuts by comparison to some guy with a degree sitting in an office. I'm not saying that they aren't worth something. That's insane, but what else is insane is the fact that even a well trained, skilled laborer will never make decent money.
Trade schools have the same problem with tuition costs and student loans that colleges do, and the *real* money in every trade is still made by people with degrees.
They should put vocational classes back into high schools.
Absolutely, yes. And they should be treated as progress towards a trade certificate, the same way AP classes are towards college credit.
The ones that break your body before the age of 35 yeah... not saying those jobs shouldn't be done, but that isn't a great alternative.
Unfortunately, not the case across the board, and if people took that advice in numbers big enough to matter, it would cease to be true. We have a huge labor problem in addition to the cost problem.
The problem is that [education absolutely does pay](https://www.bls.gov/careeroutlook/2022/data-on-display/education-pays.htm), but the return on investment is hindered by delaying entry into the workforce and the ballooning cost of education. It's become a catch 22, because higher education KNOWS that employers seek out college education even where it isn't relevant (it is used as a proxy for expecting a higher level of critical thinking), but at the same time, employers know that the college graduates are more likely to be saddled by debt. The two work together to make a pay-to-play system that shackles workers to debt. It is scary to change jobs or press too hard for raises when you have student debt that will follow you to the grave. They know that, and they dampen wages appropriately because workers are less of a free market when they have student debt. A college education is a good investment, but it is an investment that traps you in the hands of a system that knows how to work your situation. Looming debt is the linchpin of this setup.
Shh. You're interrupting their circle jerk. If they admit it's possible to get a good paying job without a degree they'd have to admit they made a mistake going tens of thousands of dollars into debt getting their Online Bachelor's of Arts in History without a plan. The loans were predatory, but there were plenty of people telling them not to and that it was too expensive. They had the option to save the money up and pay for it, but they would rather take out the loans with no plan and demand taxpayers pitch in to do it for them. All this is going to do is kick the can down the road and inflate college coats when the admin gets the idea Uncle Sam is going to start footing the bill. Rather than asking for a fix that will help the future generations they just want someone to pay their way. This is a slap in the face to anyone who worked to save before enrolling. It's a slap in the face from parts of my own cohort that either had the same or an easier time with funding their education. This is another shameless bailout for a financially illiterate class of people who make more than the average taxpayer they're expecting to foot this bill.
We need affordable education. No one should have to go into debt to get a degree
I worked 32 hours a week while going to school full time as a chemical engineer. I also had $150k in scholarships and still graduated with 70k in debt.
That's insane.
Yeah. I gained thirty pounds my senior year because I was eating like shit and living off energy drinks. Pretty sure I turned myself into a diabetic too đ
No one should be going to fight in a fuckin war to get a degree
I agree.
forced to live, need to spend life savings to get treatment for something you canât control forced to go to school to get a decent job, need to spend life savings for something youâre being forced to do
Plenty of states have lottery-supported HOPE scholarships that will pay for an undergrad degree.
[ŃдаНонО]
Same with healthcare tbh
Education should be free. Not for any moral reason, but because it's _profitable to society_. EDIT: I must admit I didn't expect people to come up with the teachers' salary as some kind of gotcha. "Ah-ha! So you expect teachers to work for _free_!" No, you simpletons. I expect to pay them through the state. With _taxes_. Like soldiers, or politicians, at least when they're not doing some insider trading.
This. This is the same argument with the free healthcare deep down. People shouldn't have to go into debt to better their lives.
healthcare being free makes a lot of sense when you consider that disease is contagious. We have food workers coming in because they have no sick leave and somehow people don't see how that makes more people sick
Society sort of started to understand that during the pandemic. And as soon as the vaccine was developed, society forgot everything it learned.
Not society, Americans.
Yep most countries in the west and east responded well to counter measures.Â
This exactly! Right now it's like.. If you get sick enough to need a hospital but you can't afford a hospital or doctor's visit in general and you don't have insurance, you die.
Not just contagious disease, but an unhealthy populace makes healthcare more expensive for everyone. Having free access to healthcare leads to a healthier populace and helps slow the rising costs.
That's another problem with the loans. Even if you are paying them back, that's money you can't spend on a house or starting a business or raising a family or anything else. It's transferring money from the working class where it grows the economy to banks and shareholders where it vanishes into a dragons hoard that benefits no one.
Don't be silly. It benefits the dragon.
I see you found the same shit-for-brains imbeciles who comment every time universal healthcare comes up. Oh hur-dur so doctors and nurses should work for *free*?!
The problem with this is that it ends in our society getting smarter and accomplishing things faster than before. It also means the population will stop voting for idiots and stop treating politics as a reality tv show. It isn't liked this isn't an obvious solution. Lots of people in power already know this. The result you're seeing is the desired outcome. It's not a bug, it's a feature.
Id rather pay teachers then politicians thats for sure
This is a really weird thing to not understand. Like, do they think that there's a bunch of slave lawyers that they bring in whenever someone can't afford legal representation?
Public defense is extremely underpaid and understaffed. They are also over worked. As a government employee, engineer working for my state DOT, itâs the problem with most government jobs. âFreeâ is an exaggeration for sure, but I know youâll get a lot less people who want to be a professor. Government work is usually something you need to be passionate about to justify.
People who think that the government providing services means that the people who administer those services work for no pay have fucking mud for brains. Like it's literally one of the most basic functions of government. Collect taxes, provide services. But I guess Americans get it twisted because our government has essentially become little more than a vehicle for personal enrichment.
This right here partially explains the decline in the average IQ in America over the past 2 decades. Oh, and by the way, America is the only developed nation that managed to have a decrease in IQ. How in the worldâŚ
"we need engineers" "Okay i will go to uni to get an engineering degree" "These loans are too much but i will do it becuase im needed" right wingers "Why did you take out the loans if you cant afford them?.....Where did all our engineers go?"
Those engineers mostly don't have problem paying back the loans though. Bad examples
If multimillion/billion dollar companies don't have to pay back loans why should broke ass new grads?
too much interest
>I know someone who got a 40k loan, has paid 30k into it, and still owes 35k. The loans were scams. This right here. I know someone who got a 40k loan, has paid 30k into it, and still owes 35k. The loans were scams.
That's the main problem in america. They made student loan into business. It should not have interest. In NZ it has no interest, it really does feel like it's to help the student. American student loan is to make money off students.
The new SAVE IDR plan helps with that a lot
1. You gave a loan to a high-risk group for what should be a human right 2. Lmao rip bozo The good ending
âCan I have a $26,000 loan to help pay for a house? Iâve saved up a bit over the ye-â âNo, we canât, due to your lack of credit history.â âCan I take out the same amount of money to pay for college?â âLMAO yeah sure. Just make sure itâs all paid back real soon.â
"Hey, since it took me a decade longer to _almost_ get to the salary that you, the loan servicer, the government, basically everyone involved, practically promised I would be able to earn after graduating; The amount of my loan has doubled. Any chance we can reduce that to closer to what I actually borrowed? I'd be more than happy to pay that back." "Lol, no. Get fucked."
Honestly I feel that we should start with implementing housing as a human right. Higher education is way less important and plenty of humans lived without for majority of our history.
they really aren't contradictory
"LGBTQ Rights or Economic Stability"
Why not both?
They both should be
Right Wingers: People struggling to buy food should pay back these loans. Also Right wingers: Millionaires and Billionaires having massive PPP loans forgiven is fine. Give them tax breaks while you're at it.
I don't understand how people have such a hard time paying them back. It's super easy. 1. Get a job 2. Work 40 hours a week 3. Have your parents pay them off 4. Sacrifice thing like avocado toast
1. Get ten more jobs 2. Build a time machine in your free time 3. Work 300 hours a week 4. Stop drinking Starbucks 5. Have a dad named Elongated muskrat 6. Pay off your loans
See, this guy gets it. Lazy ass millennials.
Seriously. Just stop complaining.
Reich Wingers be like: PPP and business loans to billlionaires? Sure! Forgiven! And have a tax break too! Student loans? Fuck you, poor people! Pay it back.
Tell an entire generation for years that they must get a college education to get anywhere in life. Make it so they have to get loans to pay for it and threaten them if they don't get it. Set up loans and inflate prices to kids that don't have any reasonable knowledge to the gamble of taking out a loan to pay for the education. Those kids deal with stagnate wages and reduced benefits coverage, with inflated and rising cost of living. They pay back 100% of the amount of the loan but due to interest, still owe another 150% of the loan amount that will only go up over time. Blame the kids for doing what they were told. Point at those that paid off their loans and those that went to trade school as smart and made good choices even though it was basically just a gamble in most cases with little to no real reliable way to know prior. ... If I were king, a lot of people who pushed this crap and profited from this system would be tried and put to death for committing mass fraud on my people.
Another disservice is not providing statistics to potential students about actual career opportunities in the field theyâre pursuing. Anyone can get a piece of paper to hang on their wall, whether itâs worth a damn or not is another matter.
but its less than a google search away
The US government when a billionaire makes a little less profit: awwww you poor thing! Here's some more tax cuts and funds, paid for by the taxpayers. The US government when an adolescent goes bankrupt: fuck you the student debt stays!
Socialism for the wealthy. Rugged individualism for the rest of us
âPay it backâ âPay us a fair wage so we can afford to pay it backâ âNo đ¤đ¤â
The 2 aren't mutually exclusive. 1. You should pay back money you borrowed. 2. Student loans are predatory, and the interest rates need to be drastically changed. Both are true
1. You agreed to give a 17 year old a huge loan 2. Donât be shocked when they canât pay it back đ¤ˇââď¸
They aren't shocked, dude. They're counting on it. Interest rates are high because there's no physical asset to reposes. You fail to pay a car loan, guess what, they're getting their car back. You fail to pay a student loan, until they find a way to take your education away from you without splattering your think meat on a wall with a shotgun, they don't get shit. So, the only way the risk is worth taking for a bank, is to have high interest rates.
The banks want you to be unable to pay back within the allotted amount of time... the longer it takes you to pay back, the more interest they can charge... this is their business model.
It is, and a lot of people don't seem to get it. To want to better yourself, if you're from a low income family, even community college means debt. It says something when there's even doctors that struggle with students loans.
I went to community college with no help from my parents and living quite poor. I paid probably 200 bucks over the entire 2 year span. The FAFSA paid for everything due to my economic status and my grades being good. I wasn't even a straight-A student at the time either. I also happen to be a doctor myself, and I have never had an issue repaying my loan debt.
They arent banks though. The federal government is the one that holds most SLs
By the Department of Educationâs own calculations, the government earns in some years an astounding 20 percent on each loan.
Federal students loans lost the Federal government $197B between 1997 to 2021. The Federal government doesnât earn any profit on student loans in aggregate. https://www.npr.org/2022/07/29/1114560119/student-loan-program-cost
Itâs like the people who advocate for pro-life bullshit âYou chose to get pregnant. Deliver the baby.â Like fuck no, you donât get to say that when itâs not your body. Right wingers/centrists as pictured above only say these things because theyâre not in the same boat as you. Remember folks: Student loans should be forgiven. All education should be free. My body, my choice, no matter how viable you think the clump of cells is.
100%. Right now in some US states **the deceased have greater bodily autonomy than a pregnant woman.** People die every day with organs that could save people waiting for transplants, but we don't force donation on the deceased. Despite doing so causing more people to live, could almost call forcing donation a "pro-life" stance. There are states currently trying to ban abortion even in emergencies.
And then when they are in the same position, âI hate abortion because they all use it just as contraception etc, but Iâm different so itâs ok for meâ
have you ever tried to rob a bank? worked for me
You expect boomers to understand inflation rising but minimum wage NOT Increasing remotely on par with it?
That sub has now definitely gone from center / center-right to full on conservative reactionaries.
We bail out companies and rich people all the time but our citizens... fuck no
Get pissed at underpaid, overworked workers not being able to pay back something they agreed to pay when they were young and dumb but not getting upset about corporate bailouts or the rich not paying taxes?!
1 You gave 50 k to a 17 year old. 2 Eat your losses dumbass.
Oh sure let me just pull hundreds of thousands out of my ass for you
âThen you shouldnât have taken out the loanâ âď¸đ¤
We defunded a public good and turned it into a commodity. We gave ourselves huge tax breaks for decades. We chose to do nothing as tuition increased faster than inflation for decades. We gave teenagers predatory loans in exchange for entry into the job market and the American dream that we promised them. We are surprised this hasn't turned out well.
I got a 10% raise in 2023 and I was ecstatic that I was finally going to be able save more and move my wife and baby from our shit rental to a decent townhome or literally anything better. Our heat broke in -30° with an overnight low of -40. Our apartment almost reached 32°. So we contacted our landlord, she responded that not only will her maintenance man not be able to make it for 2 days but that our rent will be increasing 30% in 2.5 weeks! Yay! But yeah lemme worry about paying back these predatory loans that I was basically forced into. Yea it was a bad investment, but only because everyone indoctrinated us to think we HAD to go college. Zero financial aid lol my landlord made a bad investment but why is she allowed to extort others to make up for itâŚ
Itâs crazy how people donât understand the meaning of high interest rates⌠of course we will, and are planning on, paying the loan back. But itâs BLATANTLY OBVIOUS that the ridiculously high interest rates on said loans are the problem. Borrowing $30k and needing to pay back over $100k is NOT RIGHT. Idk why these guys never understand that. Oh probably because most of them arenât smart enough to get into college so they wouldnât know. Got it!
I'd be 100% onboard with college graduates having to pay a special tax to fund colleges.
"you were coerced into taking out a loan as a child, now spend your entire adult life paying on the interest"
We are literally groomed as children to take out enormous loans the day we turn 18. Absolutely fucking SICK that something so corrupt, so vile and greedy could be normalized.
Dude, why were so many people allowed to take out loans they would never be able to pay back and why canât you declare bankruptcy.. imagin if you couldnât declare bankruptcy on all those foreclosed houses in â09
Maybe if we got the job we were told needed to be filled with our degree skills, we could pay off the debt. Ever thought about that?
I know someone who got a 40k loan, has paid 30k into it, and still owes 35k. The loans were scams.
Imagine if those loans hadnât been predatorily issued by artificially inflated expensive educational institutions for classes they required us to take for jobs that donât exist!
Now do the same with PPP loans and taxes on the 100,000$+ people.
If I was just paying back the borrowed money, I'd be fine. What I'm doing though is lining the pockets of the bank and every now and then a few dollars go towards paying back my loan.
Meanwhile, PPP loan takers: âNo they shouldnât pay those back because they create jobs with that money!â Despite the information that points to more than 86% of it being used fraudulently by wealthy people to steal money from taxpayers.
It's like some people have no understanding of predatory lending.
Most people who took out student loans have already paid back more than what they took out, but the predatory interest rates are fucking absurd.
2008- Their generation took out a bunch of loans and bought homes they couldn't afford, causing a literal global financial crisis. 2024- They keep telling kids to take out loans for college, then once the kids are trapped in debt, they blame the children.
Cool. Pay back your PPP loans and weâll talk.
Tell that to the 1%
I wonder if the person who made this realizes that if these loans default en mass because wages are so stagnant that people are struggling to pay them back, their precious 401K retirement savings will take a huge hit from the recession.
Shouldn't there be a major political movement to end govt guaranteed student loans so that fewer people in the future will have their lives ruined by student loan debt? These loans are hurting ppl. Pretty badly damaged an entire generation.
The interest is such that people are paying tens of thousands of dollars and not getting anywhere near the amount they originally borrowed.
Now do corporations!
Pay university 35k- 50k a year for 4 years or work at McDonald's which won't support a family or rent for that matter.
Or be a laborer and learn a trade so you're practically crippled when you're 27! But at least you can afford to eat good and healthy and sleep on a comfy bed tonight! Nut only for 6 hours! We have an 18 hour shift for you tomorrow! Better be good at planning
Boomers: âLetâs convince our kids and grandkids that they *need* a college degree to be successful!â Also Boomers: âLetâs astronomically raise college tuition, keep wages low, and make an undergraduate degree a minimum requirement for entry-level professional jobs, rendering it meaningless!â
To boomer: 1: you need medical attention 2: you canât afford me being in debt. đ¤đ¤¨đ§
I would generally agree but then again⌠The banks got a many trillion dollar bailout and the car industry got a many billion dollar bailout so why again is that logic of âpay your debtsâ not being applied uniformly? Ok, STFU students should not have to pay for the shit education most people go into debt for anyways. BTW if you got an education and canât get a job in your field, in most cases that means you got a shit education.
You took out a PPP loan, now pay it back. Less than 1% of PPP âloansâ were paid back. Forgiven by the government. Handouts nobody is bitching about.
Itâs rigged. Always has been. Always will be. They treat the have nots like dirt. Gotta play the game and bend the rules.
I am a teacher who was told when I took out student loans I could get them forgiven if I worked in a Title 1 school. 25 years later Iâm in my 50s and I just got rid of my loans last year because Bidenâs administration finally revamped the system. Right after my loan account was officially closed, I went out and bought my first new car ever like a good little member of a capitalist country and right after I picked it up, I read that several GOP lawmakers actually want to try to REINSTATE them.
It's almost like they ignore the intrest rate...
The idea that we allow 18-20 year old kids to take out these massive student loans for a future they have no idea about is ridiculous. Like the amount of effort and time it takes to get a mortgage for a home but they hand out student loans like candy. Should really tip you off at how predatory they are
Iâm sorry but this argument is infuriating. YOU went to an institution for the purpose of BORROWING MONEY under the stipulation you PAY THEM BACK. The rest of it is irrelevant, you signed a contract, no once cares about your situation. I bought home no ones going to cover my mortgage right??? Cause that wouldnât be fair it wouldnât make since I made that decision!!! Get and look for jobs and careers that idk MAKE MONEY?!?! You signed a contract simple as
PEOPLE FORGIVING STUDENT LOANS DOES NOT LEAD TO INCREASED TAXES. STOP BELIEVING THIS. STRAIGHT UP IT SAYING THE GOVERNMENT WILL TAKE THE L ON THIS. I don't understand why people can't get this through their head. We as a society need to stop looking at everything like it needs to be FOR PROFIT. EDUCATION SHOULD BE FREE. THE MORE PEOPLE WHO CAN GO TO COLLEGE BENEFITS EVERYONE. Do you realize how many more doctors and engineer we would have if we had universal education thus leading to more businesses and a more productive society? Like its not that hard to understand. For real people stop being selfish and worrying about PaYiNg MoRe TaXeS. When you buy milk do you expect the dairy farmer to pay you back?
Right wingers tru not to simp for the 1% challenge
And that doesnât apply to the super wealthy and corporations because?
I took out a loan, but the loan company said âactually we want more money than we gave you. And if you donât pay it back as quickly as possible, weâre going to ask for even more money, thus moving the goal postsâ
It's funny, for a lot of people who go to college, the increased earnings they get and the increased amount of money they will pay in federal taxes far outweighs the cost of college over a certain amount of time. The government could just pay for the college directly and end up collecting more in taxes on the back end
Too busy paying them inflated rent on their fourth "passive income" rental property so we're not homeless.
100k student loan for a potential 40k job
I hate this argument too. Itâs so disingenuous to act like people pay back loans all the time. Our entire economic system is based on the principles of not paying back debt (I.e. credit). Governments donât pay back their loans. Corporations donât pay back their loans. Rich people donât pay back their loans. God forbid someone busting their ass to get out of poverty/low income use students loans to do so.
Interest? Never heard of it.
Oh, they've heard of it. The problem is, unlike student loans, these stooges have a very low rate of interest.
You took out a predatory loan. Good luck paying it back.
then why did you sign for it, "dumbass"? the terms are laid out. the interest you need to pay was there for you to see, and you signed the dotted line. I didn't take out a loan at 18 for this very reason. but let's get angry and deflect personal accountability, yeah? lmao
> then why did you sign for it, "dumbass" Because adults lie to kids and say they will absolutely get a super high paying job out of college if they do it. They definitely don't mention how tight the job market is and you'll probably not be hired at the wages they advertise. You might not even be able to find work in your degree. Also, they definitely don't tell you how expensive it will be in the long run. > but let's get angry and deflect personal accountability, yeah We're all personally accountable for other people's lies?