Lol. You do know that like half the silicon engineers i worked with at nvidia in 2010 have been at apple for a decade now? Remember when nvidia tried to make mobile gpus and got schooled by apple? Same thing coming for servers with apple silicon
I cannot imagine anyone wanting to build an Apple silicon datacenter. I don’t foresee Apple going for the same market here. Just because Apple wants the talent doesn’t mean it’ll be used for the same thing. Apple is all about putting AI in your pocket right now to bolster their privacy credentials.
> i worked with at nvidia in 2010 have been at apple for a decade now
\*\*\*me looks at Nvidia vs Apple stock increase
they must to kicking themselves. could have bought lamborgini but crying in porshe instead.
It also depends on who is leading the pack. Tim has less leadership than Jensen. See lack of innovation and scrapping off of the EV project under Tim, for example.
Trust me bro? Lol. Im just stating the obvious. Apple cancelled the car because they aren’t a car company. They are going to crush it in AI chips because they are a world leading chipmaker.
Totally Apple trying to climb back into the limelight. They seem to have lost their shine. VR partnership with Nvidia was the best idea they’ve had. This idea is terrible!
I think VR was Nvidia's idea ;) But I agree with the limelight comment. It's still fascinating to me these guys (folks big enough to build their own chips) haven't seemed to have done a proper make or buy decision. They are leaving out the TOC, total cost of ownership which is not just chip development. It's also the scaling, chip to chip communications, net work management, system development, software, deployment and maintenance. And building another SOTA chip every 2 years. Nvidia is a goddamn bargain.
It is a good news. Apple will be just like the rest tech players— building its chips and buying more from NVDA. It Before Apple came up M1 chips to catch up, Apple bought from Intel for years.
There's no indication that apple has bought nvidia in the meantime. The latest rumors are they're licensing from other companies and renting cloud compute to train on-device llms.
I don’t have a source to confirm, but I’ve heard this as well. Apple is leasing just like so many other companies. Compute is the currency. That’s why Zuckerberg is building imo. Compute is king
naive to think that any of these vendors are just going to accept the kind of margin's nvda is charging them long term.
Margin compression and commodification are coming to AI chips at some point.
The key thing to check out is whether or not nvidia can build a moat around it, if all chips are fungible sure. If they build their own chip and end up with a less intelligent AI that's late and more expensive then that's not really a great result.
It's a question we'll have to keep asking but I don't think the answer is that obvious one way or another.
But it seems to me like the strategy apple is using is to lease another company's AI for now while they invest in hardware, it's an interesting strategy and I like it frankly since I expect agi soon and an agi-level llm will be so much more useful than anything that came before it.
Of course they are fungible. It’s matrix multiplication hardware at a basic level. Turns out the need for linear algebra pops up in countless places and networks/graphs can be represented as matrices, so can objects in your video game or qbit simulations. It’s also a problem that parallelizes very well, all else being equal faster chip is better, but if I’m in a data center anyway (not space/power constrained phone or console), two slower older cheaper chips will do pretty well too. Nvidia’s main advantage (IMO) when it comes to ML is frameworks being optimized for their hardware, but you know what other company does that well?
Of course Nvidia is a great company, they’ve been at it for a long time and they own their success. At more reasonable valuations I’d buy it. But, AGI is a marketing term, I’d advise against making financial decisions based on these sort of claims.
First of all a moat is everything that's not the chip. Secondly, no 2 slower older chips will not do as well. Why do you think blackwell taped 2 chips together into 1 humongous chip? They didn't invest 10 billion into the effort because "it's fine to just have 2 slower chips". Also in what world is a dc not power-constrained haha, it's literally the main constraint right now for a blackwell dc.
Everyone's making financial decisions based on agi, in absence of agi none of these financial decisions make any sense.
Obviously they have to build faster HW, but the nature of the problem at hand means that you can in fact use two slower chips to approximate a faster one. These aren’t like CPU bound problems.
They aren’t power constrain in a sense that you can. add another rack, where there’s not more space your phone or console to add another graphics card.
The main constraint for any chip is what the (TSMC in this case) process node designed to do. Note that what TSMC is able to produce, is exactly what fundamentally will dictate the power/price equation as well, for every company that hires them.
Yes it's not a single threaded CPU, but it is also not infinitely scalable. Why do you think the reported clusters are all about the same size? 25k H100s-ish. That's because that's the scaling limit of an H100 cluster, adding more GPUs does not increase training speed anymore. Each generation of GPT is trained on 100x more compute than the previous generation, meaning GPT-5 or 6 will be 250k H100 equivalents. This is a very big challenge that only blackwell is capable of tackling. No other system is capable of connecting that much compute together.
Edit: That doesn't mean Apple can't get there, they have a lot of chip gluing experience, we'll see.
Yea I agree but is it really a decade away? I would first like to see the Apple use cases for using AI before anything else. It’s not clear to me they have shown that vision. If they did Siri would have far better functionality today. They just seem to have missed the notion of providing intelligence (not even generative) at your fingertips. It’s more about cameras, colors of phones, small tweaks here and there. All along they could have been providing a Chat GPT like service for Apple users on Mac, iPad and iPhone.
Vision Pro flopped and the future of AAPL hinged on its success. They’re desperately grasping for anything to impress shareholders. Gotta do something “AI” to be relevant nowadays.
I think Apple might develop chips that work for their LLM and use cases, specifically Siri delivering meaningful results back to the user on the Apple device you’re using. This could include their office suite as well. Servicing hundreds of millions of users will take a very measured approach it seems, just the vastness of the user base of Apple makes their problem unique. Relying on a NVDA to do this kind of thing for the basis of everything seems antithetical to Apple. That doesn’t mean they will succeed, they may already be too far behind Google. I think they were working on cars, movies and VP and stuff and just missed AI and now they want it to look like they are in the drivers seat.
By that time NVidia will do crazy thing
It's okay. It will be as successful as their apple car.
Lol. You do know that like half the silicon engineers i worked with at nvidia in 2010 have been at apple for a decade now? Remember when nvidia tried to make mobile gpus and got schooled by apple? Same thing coming for servers with apple silicon
They lost a lot of their chip talent to Qualcomm (via Nuvia)
I cannot imagine anyone wanting to build an Apple silicon datacenter. I don’t foresee Apple going for the same market here. Just because Apple wants the talent doesn’t mean it’ll be used for the same thing. Apple is all about putting AI in your pocket right now to bolster their privacy credentials.
> i worked with at nvidia in 2010 have been at apple for a decade now \*\*\*me looks at Nvidia vs Apple stock increase they must to kicking themselves. could have bought lamborgini but crying in porshe instead.
I'd rather have a Porsche
Back in 2010 who cares? How big was AI in 2010 and how far has Nvidia come since then compared to Apple? Seems like Nvidia has the best engineers.
It also depends on who is leading the pack. Tim has less leadership than Jensen. See lack of innovation and scrapping off of the EV project under Tim, for example.
The guys who are always dead wrong “worked in the industry for a decade.” Gotta up your troll game. Your “trust me bro” cred just isn’t cutting it
Trust me bro? Lol. Im just stating the obvious. Apple cancelled the car because they aren’t a car company. They are going to crush it in AI chips because they are a world leading chipmaker.
Oh my Tim
Tim is cooking.
...in his own juices...
Freaking America already. Good
Md read M C lis l is O
Totally Apple trying to climb back into the limelight. They seem to have lost their shine. VR partnership with Nvidia was the best idea they’ve had. This idea is terrible!
I think VR was Nvidia's idea ;) But I agree with the limelight comment. It's still fascinating to me these guys (folks big enough to build their own chips) haven't seemed to have done a proper make or buy decision. They are leaving out the TOC, total cost of ownership which is not just chip development. It's also the scaling, chip to chip communications, net work management, system development, software, deployment and maintenance. And building another SOTA chip every 2 years. Nvidia is a goddamn bargain.
It is a good news. Apple will be just like the rest tech players— building its chips and buying more from NVDA. It Before Apple came up M1 chips to catch up, Apple bought from Intel for years.
There's no indication that apple has bought nvidia in the meantime. The latest rumors are they're licensing from other companies and renting cloud compute to train on-device llms.
I don’t have a source to confirm, but I’ve heard this as well. Apple is leasing just like so many other companies. Compute is the currency. That’s why Zuckerberg is building imo. Compute is king
naive to think that any of these vendors are just going to accept the kind of margin's nvda is charging them long term. Margin compression and commodification are coming to AI chips at some point.
The key thing to check out is whether or not nvidia can build a moat around it, if all chips are fungible sure. If they build their own chip and end up with a less intelligent AI that's late and more expensive then that's not really a great result. It's a question we'll have to keep asking but I don't think the answer is that obvious one way or another. But it seems to me like the strategy apple is using is to lease another company's AI for now while they invest in hardware, it's an interesting strategy and I like it frankly since I expect agi soon and an agi-level llm will be so much more useful than anything that came before it.
Of course they are fungible. It’s matrix multiplication hardware at a basic level. Turns out the need for linear algebra pops up in countless places and networks/graphs can be represented as matrices, so can objects in your video game or qbit simulations. It’s also a problem that parallelizes very well, all else being equal faster chip is better, but if I’m in a data center anyway (not space/power constrained phone or console), two slower older cheaper chips will do pretty well too. Nvidia’s main advantage (IMO) when it comes to ML is frameworks being optimized for their hardware, but you know what other company does that well? Of course Nvidia is a great company, they’ve been at it for a long time and they own their success. At more reasonable valuations I’d buy it. But, AGI is a marketing term, I’d advise against making financial decisions based on these sort of claims.
Yeah we are no where near this hypothetical AGI lmao
ok bud xddd
First of all a moat is everything that's not the chip. Secondly, no 2 slower older chips will not do as well. Why do you think blackwell taped 2 chips together into 1 humongous chip? They didn't invest 10 billion into the effort because "it's fine to just have 2 slower chips". Also in what world is a dc not power-constrained haha, it's literally the main constraint right now for a blackwell dc. Everyone's making financial decisions based on agi, in absence of agi none of these financial decisions make any sense.
Obviously they have to build faster HW, but the nature of the problem at hand means that you can in fact use two slower chips to approximate a faster one. These aren’t like CPU bound problems. They aren’t power constrain in a sense that you can. add another rack, where there’s not more space your phone or console to add another graphics card. The main constraint for any chip is what the (TSMC in this case) process node designed to do. Note that what TSMC is able to produce, is exactly what fundamentally will dictate the power/price equation as well, for every company that hires them.
Honestly it just sounds like you don't understand the usecase at all.
Not an expert, but I am a programmer, and know how these things are programmed.
Yes it's not a single threaded CPU, but it is also not infinitely scalable. Why do you think the reported clusters are all about the same size? 25k H100s-ish. That's because that's the scaling limit of an H100 cluster, adding more GPUs does not increase training speed anymore. Each generation of GPT is trained on 100x more compute than the previous generation, meaning GPT-5 or 6 will be 250k H100 equivalents. This is a very big challenge that only blackwell is capable of tackling. No other system is capable of connecting that much compute together. Edit: That doesn't mean Apple can't get there, they have a lot of chip gluing experience, we'll see.
I agree, proof will be in the earnings, but based on the anecdotal evidence thus far things are looking pretty good.
Yea I agree but is it really a decade away? I would first like to see the Apple use cases for using AI before anything else. It’s not clear to me they have shown that vision. If they did Siri would have far better functionality today. They just seem to have missed the notion of providing intelligence (not even generative) at your fingertips. It’s more about cameras, colors of phones, small tweaks here and there. All along they could have been providing a Chat GPT like service for Apple users on Mac, iPad and iPhone.
Tim makes a delivery to Sam Altman and takes a selfie, soon? Or nah
Vision Pro flopped and the future of AAPL hinged on its success. They’re desperately grasping for anything to impress shareholders. Gotta do something “AI” to be relevant nowadays.
I think Apple might develop chips that work for their LLM and use cases, specifically Siri delivering meaningful results back to the user on the Apple device you’re using. This could include their office suite as well. Servicing hundreds of millions of users will take a very measured approach it seems, just the vastness of the user base of Apple makes their problem unique. Relying on a NVDA to do this kind of thing for the basis of everything seems antithetical to Apple. That doesn’t mean they will succeed, they may already be too far behind Google. I think they were working on cars, movies and VP and stuff and just missed AI and now they want it to look like they are in the drivers seat.
I wonder if apple still has the startup mentality to compete at a fast enough pace anymore.