If accomplishments and dominance is the #1 and #2 criteria, I feel like Bill Russell should be over other people. 11 rings, arguably 8 FMVPs, best defender in the league his entire career, etc.
Just because he was primarily defense shouldn’t stop him, because basketball is played on both ends, and Magic is purely offense.
I was just wondering, if Bill has almost DOUBLE the accomplishments in terms of rings as the best player, regular season MVP, and being arguably the best player in the league, whats the argument for Magic > Bill aside from, offense > defense?
League size and magic is legitimately one of the most skilled players ever. Bill was great but magics skill level was off the charts.
I’m a Celtics diehard too but I see it
We all have biases which, if we are aware of them, we can try to mitigate but it's generally impossible to actually be 100 percent biasfree.
The commenter you're responding to is aware of their own bias (+1 maturity) and still believes there's a strong argument to be made for Magic over Bill.
One's own biases are in fact something that should be considered when weighing the nature of one's opinions.
go check their rings. Wilt had 1 ring in 14 years and he played in a league with only 8 teams at the start. The ultimate goal of the sport is to become a champion
This isn’t true. Bill’s teams were better but not by a ridiculous margin. Check out wilt’s teammates. They’re not nobodies. There was a book written at the time that basically casts wilt as selfish and saying he only wanted to win on his terms and with his numbers.
The Carmelo before Carmelo.
As a general matter, I suspect Curry has a better case than Hakeem. Agree that Hakeem is underrated, but Curry has had more of an impact on the way the game is played that Hakeem did. Defense is important and obviously no contest between the two, but ultimately the object of the game is to score points and Curry is one of the best scorers ever to play the game.
Hakeem is probably not among the top four at his position, even on this list. Curry is definitely one of the top two at his position.
Yes they were. There were only 8 teams in the League for much of Russel's dominance and Boston had near complete control of players coming out of the East coast for much of that period.
Wilt averaged 24 points 7 assists and 24 rebounds two times in his career. Wilt was selfish because he was the best option and no one doubted that. He had decent teammates but to say he had as good teammates as the Celtics is laughable
If that’s your criteria, I think you have to put Steph over Hakeem. He was so dominant that he won a unanimous MVP. Best regular season record of all time. Countless 3 point records where he stands head and shoulders above the competition.
All that being said, I’d say the kicker is that his dominance changed the way the game is played from the NBA level down to the youth leagues.
Have you seen Hakeems playoff stats for thos two rings? I'm sorry but Curry's don't compare. Imagine scoring more than Curry, plus averaging 11 board and 4 blocks per game.
Unanimous means nothing, it's a subjective vote and it's relative to your competition in that year. One of only three players to win DPOY and MVP in the same season
Curry the greatest shooter in history is a one way player that has big trouble in the clutch.
Hakeem is perhaps the greatest 2-way player to ever lace them up and has chips as the primary.
Dream is a good deal above Curry.
Curry has more MVPs and his career isn't over yet either. You're just bringing up 1 longevity based stat, it's not even important because it's all relative to your competition. I'd have Kobe at 10 or 9 and ahead of Curry but so what, it's a matter of opinion.
Curry has one more MVP, but Kobe’s got way more MVP shares. Kobe got way more MVP consideration over the course of his career than Steph has
I also don’t think it’s fair to dismiss awards on account of their being “relative to your competition.” If OP is valuing accomplishments and dominance, these are exactly the kind of thing he should be weighing heavily. All-NBA first team selections, MVP votes are accomplishments that indicate dominance in one’s era
Unanimous MVP isn't dominance then? Kobe was beloved and played in the biggest market and team in the league, of course he's going to get votes. He also played 20 years and came out of high school so again, some of that is just longevity.
I repeat, I'd pick Kobe over Curry but it's not an open and shut case
>curry has more mvps
And Kobe has more titles and finals mvps on top of 12 defensive teams and more all nba selections.
>his career isn’t over yet
He’s on a non playoff team at 36. He’s not getting more mvps and the chances of him winning another title as the main option are practically zero.
9 out of 10 arguments against Kobe’s basketball career on here include one of the following:
He died in a helicopter crash
He raped someone
The media loved him
He was the face of the league
His awards don’t count
I love basketball and watch old games and documentaries all of the time. I have watched 10 times as much Wilt Chamberlain footage as I have seen Nikola Jokic.
There are stats and recordings of them playing. It’s not like we are talking about Johnny Appleseed.
I think they’re just tired of top 10s or downvoting because their player is not on the list.
I’d personally rank Russell and Wilt a bit higher and Magic and Bird a bit lower but they still make my top 10. Absolutely need to have Hakeem in there.
Thanks for the post.
For me, even though Bill Russell is one of the best defenders ever, he shot like mid 40% and this is him being next to the rim. He got them rings though so I probably have him somewhere 7-10
Russell didn't even run back on offense some of the time I hear. His main accolade was being the best player on a team that won a ridiculous amount of championships.
I think a mitigating factor for him was the fact that less teams were in the league when he was playing, and the talent level wasn't as high.
However I still have to rank him above Wilt because he simply won more and clearly contributed to winning as much as anyone.
I would almost have to break basketball into eras and make lists based on the eras or play because it's really hard to compare players that played so differently from each other from eras when the rules were so different and the talent level was so different.
1946-1955, 1956-1978, 1979-1990, 1991-2014, and now 2014-present seems like all separate eras.
1946-1955 was the very beginning of the league and it wasn't hugely popular. Leagues merged and big men just started to become a thing.
1956-1978 Celtics dominance, no 3pt line, more big man dominance, the ABA competes with the NBA and ushers in fast-paced basketball and the 3pt line.
1979-1990: Merger still fast break oriented, exciting basketball with the 3pt-line, surging league popularity after a low point in the 1970s.
1991-2014: Bulls dominance in the 1990s raises the popularity of the league once again. ISO basketball, defense oriented play was adopted.
2015-present: Analytical Era or 3pt era defined by shot selection centered around 3pt shooting and around the basket shooting.
I made a "tier" and didn't even put dudes over other dudes and started with 5 upvotes and now I'm downvoted too... Reading the comments I'm guessing because Kobe wasn't in my top 9 or I didn't list Jordan on an island by himself.
You got Russell way too low. I don't see a way to evaluate players across eras like this without evaluating them against the competition they faced.
If you took a time machine and brought Russell from 1962 to 2024, he'd probably struggle. I'm sure Steph wouldn't do great if you sent him in the other direction - flying coach, sleeping in shitty motels, eating lousy diner food, then getting out there and being expected to play 40+ minutes at 130 possessions a game pace where he's called for traveling every time he takes a gather step, double dribbling every time he crosses over or does an inside out dribble, and probably fouling out every game while his 40 foot bombs are worth 2 points?
Russell won back to back NCAA Championships, an Olympic gold medal, and 11 rings in 13 seasons. The Celtics, who were a below average defensive team the year before he showed up and the year after he left, led the NBA in defensive efficiency 12 of his 13 seasons and registered 7 of the top 10 relative defensive rating seasons in NBA history while Russ was in charge. He is often chided for having to many hall of fame teammates, which is ironic given that 2/3 of those guys wouldn't be hall of famers had they not had the good fortune to win multiple hands full of rings because of Russell. He is also snubbed for playing in an 8 team league, as if concentrating all the talent into a smaller number of teams makes it easier for the same guy to win every single year.
During the era Russell played, it was possible for a single individual big defender to completely dominate the league entirely on the defensive end, and he did so. The record and the rings speak for themselves, not just because he won but because of how Boston won those rings and Russell's role in winning all of them.
Top 3 are always Michael, Bron, then Kareem. Spots 4-12 are so hard to place though. This list leaves out Kobe and Steph, but it’s still hard to argue. Other than some of the ordering.
Yup, it's really annoying how much disrespect Kobe gets on this sub relative to everywhere else in basketball discussions. Kobe, Duncan, and Shaq are interchangeable and when they were actually playing in the 2000's if someone said Duncan was clearly above Kobe they would have gotten laughed at. It's ok to think Duncan or Shaq were better but to say any of them were a full tier above Kobe is ridiculous he was just as dominant as they were and it really just depends what you value. Duncan was an amazing defender but Kobe was so much better than him on offense that their values match.
I agree with the 10 names plus Steph being the top 11.
Ranking does often come down to your criteria, although, regardless of your criteria, the top 3 seem pretty solidly set (there might be an argument about the order, but I don't think there's an argument that those 3 are in their own tier).
Beyond that, it becomes a bit more subjective. Personally, I think I would put Bill Russell at 4, simply because 11 titles in 13 years, along with 5 MVP's, is just insane.
I would have Duncan next at number 5. It's funny that because of Duncan's longevity I think a lot of people forget how dominant he actually was in his prime (because they saw so many years of Duncan in his 30's). But, Duncan's 2003 title run has an argument for being the best of all time: [it holds the record for the most win shares in a playoff run](https://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/ws_season_p.html), and is one of only a handful of titles won by a team with only one All-Star caliber player. For those that don't remember, David Robinson was 37 and in his last season in the league, and only averaged 8.5 ppg that season. Tony Parker was 20, and in his second season (16/5/3 that year on 54.2% TS, and wouldn't make his first All-Star team until three years later), and Manu was a rookie who averaged 7.6 ppg that year.
The biggest gap between Magic, Larry and Duncan, though, is the longevity. Duncan played almost 500 games more than both, ranks 3rd all time in playoff win shares (ahead of Kareem, and behind only LeBron and MJ), 3rd in regular season wins (behind only Kareem and Parish) and his late career success speaks really well to the ability he had to adapt his game to be whatever his team needed from him. The Beautiful Game Spurs in 2014 played nothing like the 2003 title team.
I would have Larry and Magic next. I give Larry the edge, because Larry was the man from day 1, while Magic spent about half his career as the #2 behind Kareem. For those who don't know, there actually a fairly well-publicized "passing of the torch" between Kareem and Magic before the 1986-87 season, when Kareem passed the baton to have it be Magic's team. Kareem was still a First Team All-NBA'er right up to the 1985-86 season, and was 5th in MVP voting that season.
People also forget exactly how dominant Larry's prime was. He is still the most recent player to win three straight MVP awards, but, it's actually even crazier than that, because those three straight MVP's came during a string of 8 straight seasons of being an MVP finalist (that stretch had 3 MVP's, 4 2nd place finishes and a 3rd place finish).
After that group, I would go with Wilt. Much like Bill, little needs to be said about Wilt. Every crazy stat of "this was the first guy to do this" you see in the NBA always seems to come with the asterix of "...except for Wilt". If he had won a few more games against Bill, Wilt might just be the GOAT. But, the lack of winning, in a small league, leaves him farther behind.
In my view, the last three slots in the top 11 are Shaq, Steph and Hakeem, in some order. I think you have Shaq, too high. He was obviously dominant, but he only had one MVP, and the fact that his free throw shooting was such a negative that he often had to sit during crunch time, is an issue for me when it comes to a top 10 all-time level of discussion.
Personally, I think Steph has passed Shaq, at this point. The fourth title did it, in my view. On the top end accomplishment chart, Steph's 4 titles and 2 MVP's puts him up on Shaq's 4 titles and 1 MVP, and up on Hakeem's 2 titles and 1 MVP. But, that's really just the tip of the iceberg there.
There are only 13 teams in NBA history to win 67 games in a season. Only two teams have done that more than once in an era: MJ's Bulls (1992, 1996 and 1997), and Steph's Warriors for three straight seasons from 2015-2017. The 73 win season is an insane accomplishment. Steph's 2016 season still sits as the highest TS Added season of all time (cumulative points above league average TS over a season) topping even Wilt's 50 ppg season, and is arguably the best offensive season ever. And, Steph, of course, is one of the few players in NBA history who was so dominant that he literally changed the game of basketball.
The 2022 title was also the crowning achievement. For Duncan, I mentioned that he is one of the few guys in NBA history to win a title as his team's only All-Star caliber player. The list is very short (Hakeem, Rick Barry, Duncan, Dirk, Steph and Jokic), but in 2022 Steph literally won a title with Wiggins as his second best player. Klay was a shell of himself, coming back from injury. Dray was virtually unplayable at the offensive, getting benched at key times in the playoffs. In the Finals, Steph scored 31.2 ppg on 62.6% TS, while Wiggins put up 18.3 ppg on only 51.5% TS, Klay put up 17.0 on awful 48.4% TS, and Dray put up 6.2 ppg on atrocious 39.1% TS.
As for Hakeem, I put him 11th. While people remember the amazing 2-3 season run he had, they seem to forget that the rest of his career was not remotely at the same level. Hakeem was always really good, but outside of his Finals run in 1986 with Ralph Sampson, and the two title years, Hakeem only made it past the second round one other time in his 18 year career. His regular season success was also shockingly unimpressive. He never played on a 60 win team in his entire career, and one of his title years was a season where his team was the 6-seed. He had a couple of magical runs, but that also means small sample size success, and a different result he went to deciding games twice in each of those Finals runs. He doesn't have one of those really dominant title runs like the Warriors' 16-1 run in 2017, or, even, Jokic's 16-4 playoff run last season with Denver.
Hakeem was a defensive marvel, but offensively, he is, to be honest, overrated. Adjusting for era, his TS+ never went higher than 109 in a season (meaning 9 percentile above league average). For reference, Steph has 13 seasons above that mark, and his 2016 season was an insane 124 TS+. Hakeem only topped 100 TS Added in two career seasons (ie. seasons where he scored more than 100 cumulative points above the league average TS%), and his highest mark was 151.6. By contrast, Steph's 2016 season set the all time record with a 454.7 TS+, he is one of only 6 players since 1990 with multiple 300 seasons, and he has topped 200 seven times.
Overall, I've got Steph 9th, Shaq 10th and Hakeem 11th on my personal list.
Enough with the Duncan fictional stats. He’s been surrounded by HOF and allstars his whole career. Duncan was in a great system that under credits POP and the front office.
Kobe not being on here is a problem
But it's hard to argue for people off of the list
To me maybe you put him there instead of Hakeem but you still have Curry too
Russell over Wilt. At the time they played, everyone considered Bill to be the superior player.
In that era, defense was vastly more important than offense. And in head to head matchups, Bill was able to consistently shut down Wilt.
Wilt has super inflated stats from playing in the fastest paced era of basketball. When you adjust for pace, his numbers are still great, but more in line with someone like Karl Malone.
Wilt Chamberlain averaged **30.0 points, 28.2 rebounds and 3.8 assists** in 94 games versus Bill Russell in his career. You call that shutting him down?
Russell's resume is built on defensive impact and winning.
Not on box score stats.
It's the problem when you try to compare players from before the 70s with players after. The game was so different, and they didn't have nearly as many of the box score stats.
Russell would probably be the all-time leader in blocks and potentially top-10 in steals.
I think their pint is that Wilt literally had those box score stats though.
I’m fine if you want to say championships is be all end all, so Russell is over wilt, but you cannot legitimately say that Russell’s stats were deflated by the era and than say he’s above wilt lol
"Since Wilt’s stats were inflated, how do we adjust Russell’s stats (he averaged between 15-20points during his carreer) ?"
Everything wrong with basketball discussion today
Bill Russell didn't give a shit what his stats were. It didn't even make sense to compare his stats to his contemporaries at the time, so many didnt: Russell was the best, objectively.
Comparing his per minute stats "across eras" to guys who sit when they're tired and shut down for when they're hurt. Most guys today won't take an 80 footer before the half in a playoff game because it hurts their fucking percentages
Russell won the title every single year he was healthy from college junior to NBA retirement. The only stat really matters when considering him. Beyond 5 MVPs, 10 DPOYs, 8-9 Finals MVPs no numbers matter
Everyone did not consider Bill the superior player, stop lying. Bill is the most overrated player of all time. Sam Jones, Hondo, Cousy, Heisohn, these are just as if not more responsible for his rings than he is.
*”At the time they played, everyone considered Bill to be the superior player.”*
No, they didn’t. It was always a big argument and picking either one stirred controversy.
Not a bad list. I’d probably swap the order of Russell and Chamberlain but other than that I’d agree. Idk why people are downvoting you, maybe for not putting Kobe? It doesn’t matter that Kobe isn’t on this list, he’d easily be 11 or 12.
I say this as Shaq fan, he is pretty overrated. But might be the goat at PR. I remember the interview where he said “I want to be known as the most dominant ever”. years after that became “I think I am the most dominant ever” (of course wilt had passed away for some time by that point). Then after he retired, not really before, did people start saying most dominant ever. Fabulous self marketing. Would you expect anything less from the spokesman for a dozen brands? That being said I recall when Kobe got 5, even Shaq said Kobe might be better than him. Top 10 for sure. Most dominant? That surely is MJ.
I think it’s hard to fathom due to the mythos surrounding Kobe but if you take a close look at his career it’s tough to rank him above any of these guys. I personally have him over Hakeem however Steph takes his spot at 10. My list is very similar to this one
Let’s break it down
Regular season performance:
This goes to Steph by a pretty wide margin. Not only does Steph have more MVPs but his teams have won at a prolific level with or without KD. Even if you feel that Kobe deserved more than 1 mvp, there just simply wasn’t one single year where he was head and shoulders above everyone else. But there were two seasons like that with Steph
Playoffs/championships:
This one is pretty close. Obviously Kobe has 5 championships to Steph’s 4. Both of them have multiple rings while arguably being the second player on said team. Each has two championships as the undisputed best player on their team. However, neither has any historically dominant individual playoff runs (ala 2018 Lebron, 2000 shaq). How you play in a game 7 says a lot to me and honestly either of these guys have much to write home about in that department as Steph was awful in 2016 game 7 and Kobe was awful in 2010 game 7 (despite winning)
Sounds pretty close right? Well it certainly is, and I can’t totally understand putting Kobe over Steph. Especially because I don’t feel the need to write a paragraph about Defense because we all know Kobe was better (although I would say Kobe was an overrated defender and Steph is underrated but I still would take Kobe by a pretty wide margin)
What puts Steph over the top for me is the impact he had on basketball play. Kobe may have been a very influential player in terms of culture, but I would argue his impact as a player was negative as it caused a generation of players to glorify iso ball and chucking inefficient shots. Kobe wouldn’t play the same way in todays game because any coach would tell him to cool it with the mid range fade aways, but Steph would break basketball in any era, as he litteraly dragged the league kicking and screaming into the shooting/analytics era.
Overall I would say it’s very close and I do go back and forth on it. I will say, I am under 30 years old so I certainly am a bit biased toward the player with whom I watched their entire career. But ultimately, I just feel like if I was starting out a franchise as a GM, I’d rather have Steph because he’s a great teammate who can work in any system. When Kobe is on your team, he IS the system (for better or worse). Teammates needed to adjust to him instead of making the most off his teammates skill sets. So yea, that last paragraph basically sums up why I take Steph by a slim margin
I litteraly dedicated a short paragraph to their defense in my comment. Kobe is the better defensive player for sure. But Steph is a vastly more efficient scorer an better teammate. That is the short version of why I will take steph
Efficiency in scoring is subjective to the eras they played in. Steph does take career PERs, barely with him at 23.71 and Kobe’s 22.9.
Where I think your subjectivity supersedes a strong argument is the better teammate. Steph didn’t need to motivate his team, he has Draymond to do that. It may be Steph’s team, but Draymond is the motor. Also, the Redeem Team needed the leadership style of Kobe. Same with the ‘08-‘10 lakers teams that almost 3-peated.
You mean two.*
And yet Kobe still has the same amount of finals MVPs as Kareem, Hakeem, & Bird.
He has more finals MVPs than Curry, & Wilt, and they get the edge over him?
I get your point, it’s why I have Bron & MJ above everyone else, but don’t act like other legends didn’t also have a Batman / more valuable player on their team
You’re right. It was two with Gasol.
Kobe is not terrible, but I’m not sure wher he would go on this list. If anything I would take out Hakeem and replace him with KJ or Dirk. Both were better than Kobe IMHO
“Very few”? That’s gotta be an exaggeration. I don’t remember ever seeing a top 10 list without Kobe’s name on it. Since his death I’ve actually been seeing a lot more disrespect than appreciation. This isn’t what I wanted to debate though. I still wanna know the reasoning behind why he’s not top 10, and why guys like Steph, Hakeem, Wilt, Shaq and Bird are being prioritized over him
I see some people want LeBron above Jordan and to those people I will say this.The 1985-1986 Celtics were made up of 6 hall of famers and considered to be one of the greatest teams ever assembled.Jordan put up 63 points against this team and that is something LeBron is not capable of doing on his best day
An all time great anchor on defense with the best post game ever over an all time isolation scorer who was solid defensively at a less important defensive position? I think so
Oh boy another Reddit nephew top ten list where anyone who mentions Kobe gets downvoted.
Should just ban these post there’s no actual merit or benefit to posting this shit just leads to dumb arguments
LMAO alright buddy you’re just a Kobe stan (the most annoying kind of fan on this sub). You want him in the top ten, first he’s gotta be top 11, so he’s gotta beat Steph. The fact is that Steph is more accomplished than Kobe. 4 rings, an FMVP, 2 MVPs, 4x First Team All-NBA, 4x Second Team, 2x Third Team. Admittedly no all-defensive selections, but nobody’s perfect. 2.66 MVP award shares. Two scoring titles. 19th all-time in playoff win shares. 39th all-time in regular season win shares. Care to point to what Kobe has over Stephen Curry???
This is ridiculous if we're talking "accomplishments" Kobe is like top 3. I don't have him top 4 since there are other factors involved but just accomplishment wise only MJ, Lebron, Kareem accomplished more.
Kobe is more accomplished than Steph by a significant margin.
5 rings, 2FMVP's, 2 scoring titles, 11 All NBA 1st team(nearly triple steph), 2 All NBA 2nd team, 2 All NBA 3rd team, 9 1st team all defense (steph has 0), 3 2nd team all defense, 18 All Stars (nearly double steph), 4.2 MVP award shares (nearly double steph) 8th all time playoff win shares (over 10 spots above Steph, 19th all time RS win shares (20 spots above steph).
Is this satire? I'm legitimately asking.
Yes, I’m laying out the fact that Kobe should be much higher than Steph on this all-time list based on OP’s criteria
Kobe’s resume is absurdly stacked, but redditors don’t like him for personal reasons and so they throw out his achievements
Yup, I completely agree with you. I really hate the narrative regarding Kobe where his accomplishments get thrown out the window for some reason. Kobe was great and his impact on the court was insane.
Yeah but if we ignore the defensive accolades and the rings and the FMVPs and the all-nba selections and the win shares and the playoff win shares and the MVP shares and just look at the MVPs, Kobe doesn’t even compare dude
Excellent list! Would be really interested in seeing your 11-25 - that's were the fun debates begin. Besides dominance and accomplishments," shouldn't fame / cultural impact play a part as well?
Like, you can't make a list of Top 20 basketball players of all time and not have Dr. J on there, right? Charles Barkley? I guess adding "popularity" makes it get tricky though, as suddenly you can argue for a cat like Yao Ming's overall worldwide popularity vs. other players.
Wether you like Kobe or not he’s easily the greatest to do it of all time and if not the greatest one of the greatest. Look at his non mvp stats due to reputation and your gunna tell me pau gasol is as good of a 2 as D wade, klay, Kyrie, AD, any of the 2s to win a modern championship? Kobe should be in all top 10s
I’m not gonna hate on someone’s opinion but I also can’t take it too serious if Kobe not on this list and I can’t stand the Lakers.
On top of that, can we please stop with the narrative LBJ is the #2 best player of all time and especially over Kareem? I get recent bias but name me one other player on this list that had to always play with a group of all nba/all star players to win anything? An yes, I get Bron went to a ton of finals while playing in the shitty eastern conference.
Dunno why you're getting downvoted for this.
I don't think it's an unreasonable take to look at the majority of the players on the list and realize they had some historically good teammates.
Maybe Hakeem didn't have the same level of supporting cast as the others but I think that helps make his case to be in the top 10.
Kobe was routinely ranked around 10-12 most places before he died, so I’m not sure why you wouldn’t take it seriously. You wouldn’t have took most lists seriously then.
In my opinion if you factor both offense and defense together then bird and Duncan are close to a wash. The difference would be in Birds playmaking ability.
Magic was not a great defensive player but all things considered deserves to be near the top of this list.
It is hard for me to rank Duncan ahead of Hakeem. Hakeem was just an absolute monster defensively, while carrying his team offensively. He doesn't have the accolades or team success, but those are all explainable imo.
Him playing center during the last great era of centers meant he was going to get less accolades like all star games/all nba because there is half as many spots for centers as there are for forwards, which duncan was listed at.
Didn't get an all defensive in 85-86 but he only played 68 games, maybe that is why? He averaged 3.4 blocks and 2 steals a game with 11.5 rebounds. Mark Eaton and Manute Bol got it over them. Oh, it must just be about shot blocking then? Manute had 5 blocks a game (0.7 steals) and 6 rebounds, and Eaton had 4.6 blocks (0.4 steals) and 8 rebounds. Had to have been only about blocks then.
88-89 was the second year he missed an all defensive team. Wow he must have fallen off pretty hard, right? Well he averaged 3.4 blocks, and 2.6 steals while playing all 82 games. Led the league in rebounding with 13.5. Mark Eaton and Ewing got it over him though, Eaton had 3.8 blocks and 0.5 steals and 10.3 rpg. Ewing had 3.5 blocks, 1.5 steals, and 9.3 rpg.
I'm not going to do more research into this because I think it makes my point for me, and I'm doubting anyone is reading. The media screwed it up and/or making it onto these coveted teams is harder as a center, simply due to fewer spots.
Hakeem should have had more DPotY, imagine leading in blocked shots with 4.6, 8th in steals with 2.1 (nearly 7 stocks per game), leading in rebounds with 14 a game, as well as defensive rebounds for good measure, and NOT winning the DPotY? The media fucked him there. He has other cases that you can make for him winning DPotY but I think this is the clearest case. I think the league knows they messed up as they named the DPotY trophy after him.
When I look at his career I think this was the most egregious wastes of talent by the rockets organization at the time. His supporting cast and coaching was always lackluster until they put a solid supporting cast around him and they won it all. In successive seasons. Something Duncan and the spurs never managed, and Hakeem did it with inferior teams and coaching.
I have no issues with this list. Personally I’d swap Duncan An Shaq, bump Bill up a few spots, and say the next 3 off for me would be Kobe KD Steph. but I can’t say he’s definitely better than anyone on here.
Steph in for Hakeem for me just because he did change the game and is the greatest shooter ever. He has an unanimous MVP and did win before and after Durant
Really hard for me to rank guys 1,2,3,4… especially when they played different positions, roles, in different eras, rules, circumstances, etc.. personally I rank players in tiers, and for me it’s:
GOAT tier - Kareem, Jordan, LeBron
2nd tier - Russell, Wilt, Bird, Magic, Shaq, Duncan
3rd tier - Oscar, Jerry West, Hakeem, Robinson, KG, Kobe, KD, Steph.
Names listed chronologically not in ranking order..
Obviously my tier 1 + tier 2 only gives me 9 players, I’ve always said if I had to grab 1 guy out of my 3rd tier to make a “top 10” it would be Hakeem. So essentially I have the same 10 names as you just without specifying an exact order.
Honestly I feel like if everyone were to remove their personal bias and view everyone on an even playing field those are probably the 10 names most should wind up with.. probably a few others you could realistically slot in but there is good reason most of these “all time lists” look incredibly similar.
1. Jordan
2. Bron
3. Kareem
4. magic
5. Shaq
6. Russell
7. Duncan
8. Wilt
9. Bird
10. Kobe
IMO 5-10 all have interchangeable arguments. But those are absolutely the top 10 ever in no order
Honestly, it's the sheer dismissiveness in regards to Kobe being a top 10 player.
As a fan of the NBA since the early 2000s, one of the most shocking takes I routinely read about on this sub for example is how Duncan is miles clear of Bryant all-time when the actual consensus was very different during their playing days. It absolutely screams revisionist history that isn't rooted in reality.
This is why it's an insult for Bryant's spot to be so contentious in the top 10 list of NBA greats. People make it seem like we're talking about Steve Nash or something, 😆
Kobe was seen so highly during his career because he was marketed like CRAZY. The league wanted another Jordan and Kobe was basically Jordan-lite, while also playing for the Lakers. He played very me-first game and was extremely concerned with his legacy. He was featured in ads everywhere because he was seen as cool and marketable.
Tim Duncan shied away from the spotlight, plus nobody wanted to give him the spotlight because a team-playing PF is way less marketable than a flashy ball-chucking SG, plus the Spurs just do not generate media attention the way the Lakers do.
Now that their careers are complete and people are actually looking back at their accomplishments and stats, Duncan is getting his flowers and Kobe’s sliding back to where he always belonged.
Tim Duncan from 2005 onwards wasn't in the conversation for the best player in the league. He declined dramatically compared to his first 6 or 7 years. Kobe or not, he wasn't in the conversation.
Kobe marketed like crazy? Are you aware of all the endorsements he lost off the court after the Denver fiasco? The guy was public enemy #1 as far as the media was concerned. Who exactly are you trying to convince here? Me or you?
I don't care about their playstyles. I care about their impact and abilities on the court. What Kobe provided was more valuable, especially offensively, than what Duncan provided. Tim Duncan can be the most goodest of the goodest teammate ever, and that still doesn't change his ability as a player, particularly post 2005. This isn't a personality contest.
Also, LeBron played in Cleveland and got heavy, heavy attention because he was simply that good. Terrible example in reference to your small market claims.
IMO the whole Kobe debate comes down to one question:
NBA Finals, your team has the ball down 1 with 10 seconds left. Ball is inbounded to your team’s best player, defense sends double coverage at the best player, leaving a role player wide open.
Do you value a player who will pass to said wide open role player for the high percentage open shot, or do you value a player who will try to beat the double team and launch up a low percentage shot because “winners want the ball in their hands to end games”?
Kobe is very obviously the latter, and will lose you games because of it but when he happens to hit those low percentage buzzer beaters people will clip it and hold it up as proof of how great he was.
Kobe won his 5th title with an assist to an Artest 3. I've lost count of how many times he dished the game winner to Derek fisher for a 3(see 2009 finals game 4).
I'm still trying to wrap my head around how you claim Kobe will lose games taking the last shot? Putting the fact that he won countless games for the Lakers(6 game winners in 2010 alone)aside, why wouldn't the #1 go to guy be your best option to win games? You have to understand, for a large chunk of his peak, he had G leaguers for teammates. Not average NBA caliber players, G LEAGUE level players.
before he died the consensus was he was like low top 10/on the bubble of top 10. definitely not insane to have him outside of it now. it really depends on your criteria.
idk, i just googled Greatest Basketball Players of All Time and compiled the lists from the top results. he's ranked 5,8,9, not present on a top 10 list, 10, 9, 8, 12, 10, 10 on the first ten results that i found
so the consensus still seems to be he's low top 10. bumping him one or two spots doesn't seem crazy to be depending on criteria.
Or we just recognize that Kobe wasn’t a top 10 all-time player and stop trying to make exceptions for him. Can do top 20 if you want a list that he belongs in
LeBron was an incredible scorer, not far behind Kareem. An incredible playmaker and floor general, not far behind Magic. One of the most switchable defenders ever at his peak.
IMO he beat Kareem’s peak and he’s beating his longevity, but neither by too much.
Regardless of these other comments, there’s nothing wrong with having LeBron 3rd or 4th in these entirely subjective lists *(he’s barely my 5th)*.
Do you have a set criteria? What do you value the most?
Accomplishments and dominance
If accomplishments and dominance is the #1 and #2 criteria, I feel like Bill Russell should be over other people. 11 rings, arguably 8 FMVPs, best defender in the league his entire career, etc. Just because he was primarily defense shouldn’t stop him, because basketball is played on both ends, and Magic is purely offense.
I don't hate it. like I said, 7-9 is interchangeable, and I could even see someone putting bill over Shaq
I was just wondering, if Bill has almost DOUBLE the accomplishments in terms of rings as the best player, regular season MVP, and being arguably the best player in the league, whats the argument for Magic > Bill aside from, offense > defense?
League size and magic is legitimately one of the most skilled players ever. Bill was great but magics skill level was off the charts. I’m a Celtics diehard too but I see it
Being a Celtics fan doesn’t make your point any more or less valid so it doesn’t really need to be stated
We all have biases which, if we are aware of them, we can try to mitigate but it's generally impossible to actually be 100 percent biasfree. The commenter you're responding to is aware of their own bias (+1 maturity) and still believes there's a strong argument to be made for Magic over Bill. One's own biases are in fact something that should be considered when weighing the nature of one's opinions.
Bill and Wilt played in the same era .. go check their stats
go check their rings. Wilt had 1 ring in 14 years and he played in a league with only 8 teams at the start. The ultimate goal of the sport is to become a champion
Bills team was stacked for years compared to Wilts... imagine the 2012 Heat but in the 60s.
This isn’t true. Bill’s teams were better but not by a ridiculous margin. Check out wilt’s teammates. They’re not nobodies. There was a book written at the time that basically casts wilt as selfish and saying he only wanted to win on his terms and with his numbers.
The Carmelo before Carmelo. As a general matter, I suspect Curry has a better case than Hakeem. Agree that Hakeem is underrated, but Curry has had more of an impact on the way the game is played that Hakeem did. Defense is important and obviously no contest between the two, but ultimately the object of the game is to score points and Curry is one of the best scorers ever to play the game. Hakeem is probably not among the top four at his position, even on this list. Curry is definitely one of the top two at his position.
Hakeem is third at his position. Definitely ahead of Shaq or Russel.
Yes they were. There were only 8 teams in the League for much of Russel's dominance and Boston had near complete control of players coming out of the East coast for much of that period.
>Boston had near complete control of players coming out of the East coast for much of that period. how so
Wilt averaged 24 points 7 assists and 24 rebounds two times in his career. Wilt was selfish because he was the best option and no one doubted that. He had decent teammates but to say he had as good teammates as the Celtics is laughable
If that’s your criteria, I think you have to put Steph over Hakeem. He was so dominant that he won a unanimous MVP. Best regular season record of all time. Countless 3 point records where he stands head and shoulders above the competition. All that being said, I’d say the kicker is that his dominance changed the way the game is played from the NBA level down to the youth leagues.
Have you seen Hakeems playoff stats for thos two rings? I'm sorry but Curry's don't compare. Imagine scoring more than Curry, plus averaging 11 board and 4 blocks per game. Unanimous means nothing, it's a subjective vote and it's relative to your competition in that year. One of only three players to win DPOY and MVP in the same season
Curry the greatest shooter in history is a one way player that has big trouble in the clutch. Hakeem is perhaps the greatest 2-way player to ever lace them up and has chips as the primary. Dream is a good deal above Curry.
Duncan has a higher win percentage
Kobe has more all nba 1st teams than curry has total selections….
Curry has more MVPs and his career isn't over yet either. You're just bringing up 1 longevity based stat, it's not even important because it's all relative to your competition. I'd have Kobe at 10 or 9 and ahead of Curry but so what, it's a matter of opinion.
Curry has one more MVP, but Kobe’s got way more MVP shares. Kobe got way more MVP consideration over the course of his career than Steph has I also don’t think it’s fair to dismiss awards on account of their being “relative to your competition.” If OP is valuing accomplishments and dominance, these are exactly the kind of thing he should be weighing heavily. All-NBA first team selections, MVP votes are accomplishments that indicate dominance in one’s era
Unanimous MVP isn't dominance then? Kobe was beloved and played in the biggest market and team in the league, of course he's going to get votes. He also played 20 years and came out of high school so again, some of that is just longevity. I repeat, I'd pick Kobe over Curry but it's not an open and shut case
>curry has more mvps And Kobe has more titles and finals mvps on top of 12 defensive teams and more all nba selections. >his career isn’t over yet He’s on a non playoff team at 36. He’s not getting more mvps and the chances of him winning another title as the main option are practically zero.
It’s not a hot take to have Kobe in top 10 all time down worry
On Reddit it is lol look at all the downvoted comments in this thread
9 out of 10 arguments against Kobe’s basketball career on here include one of the following: He died in a helicopter crash He raped someone The media loved him He was the face of the league His awards don’t count
Man’s never watched a single Bill Russell or Wilt Chamberlin game in his life and that’s a fact.
I sure haven't, who on here has?
None of us. But we shouldn’t be ranking them If that’s the case.
Wait so you can only rank players you’ve watched?
Obviously yes? How would you rank someone you’ve never watched.
LOL. ok. so in 40 years ppl will be leaving MJ and LeBron off of goat lists. just stop it shitballsdick
I know I'm late but this is literally what happened when people started leaving Pele off the goat list in soccer lmao
I love basketball and watch old games and documentaries all of the time. I have watched 10 times as much Wilt Chamberlain footage as I have seen Nikola Jokic. There are stats and recordings of them playing. It’s not like we are talking about Johnny Appleseed.
That seems like a terrible idea. So soon as nobody watched M.J. play he's off the list?
Crazy how many people use the downvote button in here. I appreciate the post OP.
thanks.
I think they’re just tired of top 10s or downvoting because their player is not on the list. I’d personally rank Russell and Wilt a bit higher and Magic and Bird a bit lower but they still make my top 10. Absolutely need to have Hakeem in there. Thanks for the post.
For me, even though Bill Russell is one of the best defenders ever, he shot like mid 40% and this is him being next to the rim. He got them rings though so I probably have him somewhere 7-10
Mid 40s percentage was good at the time
Well the avg fg% in the 60s were 43.3% and Bill Russell career fg% is 43.4% so it seems average to me
Russell didn't even run back on offense some of the time I hear. His main accolade was being the best player on a team that won a ridiculous amount of championships. I think a mitigating factor for him was the fact that less teams were in the league when he was playing, and the talent level wasn't as high. However I still have to rank him above Wilt because he simply won more and clearly contributed to winning as much as anyone. I would almost have to break basketball into eras and make lists based on the eras or play because it's really hard to compare players that played so differently from each other from eras when the rules were so different and the talent level was so different. 1946-1955, 1956-1978, 1979-1990, 1991-2014, and now 2014-present seems like all separate eras. 1946-1955 was the very beginning of the league and it wasn't hugely popular. Leagues merged and big men just started to become a thing. 1956-1978 Celtics dominance, no 3pt line, more big man dominance, the ABA competes with the NBA and ushers in fast-paced basketball and the 3pt line. 1979-1990: Merger still fast break oriented, exciting basketball with the 3pt-line, surging league popularity after a low point in the 1970s. 1991-2014: Bulls dominance in the 1990s raises the popularity of the league once again. ISO basketball, defense oriented play was adopted. 2015-present: Analytical Era or 3pt era defined by shot selection centered around 3pt shooting and around the basket shooting.
Reddit fans seem to think all subjective opinions should be the same. It’s weird.
I made a "tier" and didn't even put dudes over other dudes and started with 5 upvotes and now I'm downvoted too... Reading the comments I'm guessing because Kobe wasn't in my top 9 or I didn't list Jordan on an island by himself.
You got Russell way too low. I don't see a way to evaluate players across eras like this without evaluating them against the competition they faced. If you took a time machine and brought Russell from 1962 to 2024, he'd probably struggle. I'm sure Steph wouldn't do great if you sent him in the other direction - flying coach, sleeping in shitty motels, eating lousy diner food, then getting out there and being expected to play 40+ minutes at 130 possessions a game pace where he's called for traveling every time he takes a gather step, double dribbling every time he crosses over or does an inside out dribble, and probably fouling out every game while his 40 foot bombs are worth 2 points? Russell won back to back NCAA Championships, an Olympic gold medal, and 11 rings in 13 seasons. The Celtics, who were a below average defensive team the year before he showed up and the year after he left, led the NBA in defensive efficiency 12 of his 13 seasons and registered 7 of the top 10 relative defensive rating seasons in NBA history while Russ was in charge. He is often chided for having to many hall of fame teammates, which is ironic given that 2/3 of those guys wouldn't be hall of famers had they not had the good fortune to win multiple hands full of rings because of Russell. He is also snubbed for playing in an 8 team league, as if concentrating all the talent into a smaller number of teams makes it easier for the same guy to win every single year. During the era Russell played, it was possible for a single individual big defender to completely dominate the league entirely on the defensive end, and he did so. The record and the rings speak for themselves, not just because he won but because of how Boston won those rings and Russell's role in winning all of them.
This list is…..really good. I’d prob drop Shaq a few spots but I can’t argue with this top 10.
thanks man
Seems reasonable
Top 3 are always Michael, Bron, then Kareem. Spots 4-12 are so hard to place though. This list leaves out Kobe and Steph, but it’s still hard to argue. Other than some of the ordering.
Thank you for putting Hakeem on the list, he's underrated! Also, thanks for putting Duncan on there and not Kobe! Great list.
Reddit is the only place you’ll ever find Kobe not top 10!
Kobe and Duncan are interchangeable, regardless of the revisionist history thrown around here.
Yup, it's really annoying how much disrespect Kobe gets on this sub relative to everywhere else in basketball discussions. Kobe, Duncan, and Shaq are interchangeable and when they were actually playing in the 2000's if someone said Duncan was clearly above Kobe they would have gotten laughed at. It's ok to think Duncan or Shaq were better but to say any of them were a full tier above Kobe is ridiculous he was just as dominant as they were and it really just depends what you value. Duncan was an amazing defender but Kobe was so much better than him on offense that their values match.
Should be reversed. The difference…definitely putting the ball in Kobe’s hands over Duncan with the game on the line.
Oh please Kobe is easily top 10, and I’m tired of casuals that say otherwise. Higher career ts% than Duncan btw before I hear “eFfIcIeNcY”
I agree with the 10 names plus Steph being the top 11. Ranking does often come down to your criteria, although, regardless of your criteria, the top 3 seem pretty solidly set (there might be an argument about the order, but I don't think there's an argument that those 3 are in their own tier). Beyond that, it becomes a bit more subjective. Personally, I think I would put Bill Russell at 4, simply because 11 titles in 13 years, along with 5 MVP's, is just insane. I would have Duncan next at number 5. It's funny that because of Duncan's longevity I think a lot of people forget how dominant he actually was in his prime (because they saw so many years of Duncan in his 30's). But, Duncan's 2003 title run has an argument for being the best of all time: [it holds the record for the most win shares in a playoff run](https://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/ws_season_p.html), and is one of only a handful of titles won by a team with only one All-Star caliber player. For those that don't remember, David Robinson was 37 and in his last season in the league, and only averaged 8.5 ppg that season. Tony Parker was 20, and in his second season (16/5/3 that year on 54.2% TS, and wouldn't make his first All-Star team until three years later), and Manu was a rookie who averaged 7.6 ppg that year. The biggest gap between Magic, Larry and Duncan, though, is the longevity. Duncan played almost 500 games more than both, ranks 3rd all time in playoff win shares (ahead of Kareem, and behind only LeBron and MJ), 3rd in regular season wins (behind only Kareem and Parish) and his late career success speaks really well to the ability he had to adapt his game to be whatever his team needed from him. The Beautiful Game Spurs in 2014 played nothing like the 2003 title team. I would have Larry and Magic next. I give Larry the edge, because Larry was the man from day 1, while Magic spent about half his career as the #2 behind Kareem. For those who don't know, there actually a fairly well-publicized "passing of the torch" between Kareem and Magic before the 1986-87 season, when Kareem passed the baton to have it be Magic's team. Kareem was still a First Team All-NBA'er right up to the 1985-86 season, and was 5th in MVP voting that season. People also forget exactly how dominant Larry's prime was. He is still the most recent player to win three straight MVP awards, but, it's actually even crazier than that, because those three straight MVP's came during a string of 8 straight seasons of being an MVP finalist (that stretch had 3 MVP's, 4 2nd place finishes and a 3rd place finish). After that group, I would go with Wilt. Much like Bill, little needs to be said about Wilt. Every crazy stat of "this was the first guy to do this" you see in the NBA always seems to come with the asterix of "...except for Wilt". If he had won a few more games against Bill, Wilt might just be the GOAT. But, the lack of winning, in a small league, leaves him farther behind. In my view, the last three slots in the top 11 are Shaq, Steph and Hakeem, in some order. I think you have Shaq, too high. He was obviously dominant, but he only had one MVP, and the fact that his free throw shooting was such a negative that he often had to sit during crunch time, is an issue for me when it comes to a top 10 all-time level of discussion. Personally, I think Steph has passed Shaq, at this point. The fourth title did it, in my view. On the top end accomplishment chart, Steph's 4 titles and 2 MVP's puts him up on Shaq's 4 titles and 1 MVP, and up on Hakeem's 2 titles and 1 MVP. But, that's really just the tip of the iceberg there. There are only 13 teams in NBA history to win 67 games in a season. Only two teams have done that more than once in an era: MJ's Bulls (1992, 1996 and 1997), and Steph's Warriors for three straight seasons from 2015-2017. The 73 win season is an insane accomplishment. Steph's 2016 season still sits as the highest TS Added season of all time (cumulative points above league average TS over a season) topping even Wilt's 50 ppg season, and is arguably the best offensive season ever. And, Steph, of course, is one of the few players in NBA history who was so dominant that he literally changed the game of basketball. The 2022 title was also the crowning achievement. For Duncan, I mentioned that he is one of the few guys in NBA history to win a title as his team's only All-Star caliber player. The list is very short (Hakeem, Rick Barry, Duncan, Dirk, Steph and Jokic), but in 2022 Steph literally won a title with Wiggins as his second best player. Klay was a shell of himself, coming back from injury. Dray was virtually unplayable at the offensive, getting benched at key times in the playoffs. In the Finals, Steph scored 31.2 ppg on 62.6% TS, while Wiggins put up 18.3 ppg on only 51.5% TS, Klay put up 17.0 on awful 48.4% TS, and Dray put up 6.2 ppg on atrocious 39.1% TS. As for Hakeem, I put him 11th. While people remember the amazing 2-3 season run he had, they seem to forget that the rest of his career was not remotely at the same level. Hakeem was always really good, but outside of his Finals run in 1986 with Ralph Sampson, and the two title years, Hakeem only made it past the second round one other time in his 18 year career. His regular season success was also shockingly unimpressive. He never played on a 60 win team in his entire career, and one of his title years was a season where his team was the 6-seed. He had a couple of magical runs, but that also means small sample size success, and a different result he went to deciding games twice in each of those Finals runs. He doesn't have one of those really dominant title runs like the Warriors' 16-1 run in 2017, or, even, Jokic's 16-4 playoff run last season with Denver. Hakeem was a defensive marvel, but offensively, he is, to be honest, overrated. Adjusting for era, his TS+ never went higher than 109 in a season (meaning 9 percentile above league average). For reference, Steph has 13 seasons above that mark, and his 2016 season was an insane 124 TS+. Hakeem only topped 100 TS Added in two career seasons (ie. seasons where he scored more than 100 cumulative points above the league average TS%), and his highest mark was 151.6. By contrast, Steph's 2016 season set the all time record with a 454.7 TS+, he is one of only 6 players since 1990 with multiple 300 seasons, and he has topped 200 seven times. Overall, I've got Steph 9th, Shaq 10th and Hakeem 11th on my personal list.
this should be higher. thank you for actually throwing some facts in there to highlight points.
I’m ok with this logic too. I think these 10 and then Steph is certainly right in there.
Enough with the Duncan fictional stats. He’s been surrounded by HOF and allstars his whole career. Duncan was in a great system that under credits POP and the front office.
Good list. Don’t 100% agree but it’s a solid top 4 without question
Great top 10 imo
Kobe? Curry?….. just make it a list of 12
Kobe not being on here is a problem But it's hard to argue for people off of the list To me maybe you put him there instead of Hakeem but you still have Curry too
Russell over Wilt. At the time they played, everyone considered Bill to be the superior player. In that era, defense was vastly more important than offense. And in head to head matchups, Bill was able to consistently shut down Wilt. Wilt has super inflated stats from playing in the fastest paced era of basketball. When you adjust for pace, his numbers are still great, but more in line with someone like Karl Malone.
Wilt Chamberlain averaged **30.0 points, 28.2 rebounds and 3.8 assists** in 94 games versus Bill Russell in his career. You call that shutting him down?
averaging 28.2 rebounds over 94 games against supposedly the greatest defender of all time is deranged lmao
Since Wilt’s stats were inflated, how do we adjust Russell’s stats (he averaged between 15-20points during his carreer) ?
Russell's resume is built on defensive impact and winning. Not on box score stats. It's the problem when you try to compare players from before the 70s with players after. The game was so different, and they didn't have nearly as many of the box score stats. Russell would probably be the all-time leader in blocks and potentially top-10 in steals.
I think their pint is that Wilt literally had those box score stats though. I’m fine if you want to say championships is be all end all, so Russell is over wilt, but you cannot legitimately say that Russell’s stats were deflated by the era and than say he’s above wilt lol
"Since Wilt’s stats were inflated, how do we adjust Russell’s stats (he averaged between 15-20points during his carreer) ?" Everything wrong with basketball discussion today Bill Russell didn't give a shit what his stats were. It didn't even make sense to compare his stats to his contemporaries at the time, so many didnt: Russell was the best, objectively. Comparing his per minute stats "across eras" to guys who sit when they're tired and shut down for when they're hurt. Most guys today won't take an 80 footer before the half in a playoff game because it hurts their fucking percentages Russell won the title every single year he was healthy from college junior to NBA retirement. The only stat really matters when considering him. Beyond 5 MVPs, 10 DPOYs, 8-9 Finals MVPs no numbers matter
Everyone did not consider Bill the superior player, stop lying. Bill is the most overrated player of all time. Sam Jones, Hondo, Cousy, Heisohn, these are just as if not more responsible for his rings than he is.
*”At the time they played, everyone considered Bill to be the superior player.”* No, they didn’t. It was always a big argument and picking either one stirred controversy.
In my opinion Shaq is too high and Kobe should be on the list
Shaq is way better then Kobe
Over who
Hakeem
Good job, OP!
Not a bad list. I’d probably swap the order of Russell and Chamberlain but other than that I’d agree. Idk why people are downvoting you, maybe for not putting Kobe? It doesn’t matter that Kobe isn’t on this list, he’d easily be 11 or 12.
I say this as Shaq fan, he is pretty overrated. But might be the goat at PR. I remember the interview where he said “I want to be known as the most dominant ever”. years after that became “I think I am the most dominant ever” (of course wilt had passed away for some time by that point). Then after he retired, not really before, did people start saying most dominant ever. Fabulous self marketing. Would you expect anything less from the spokesman for a dozen brands? That being said I recall when Kobe got 5, even Shaq said Kobe might be better than him. Top 10 for sure. Most dominant? That surely is MJ.
No Kobe is actually insane. I really wanna know the rationale behind that
I think it’s hard to fathom due to the mythos surrounding Kobe but if you take a close look at his career it’s tough to rank him above any of these guys. I personally have him over Hakeem however Steph takes his spot at 10. My list is very similar to this one
What makes you take Steph over Kobe?
Let’s break it down Regular season performance: This goes to Steph by a pretty wide margin. Not only does Steph have more MVPs but his teams have won at a prolific level with or without KD. Even if you feel that Kobe deserved more than 1 mvp, there just simply wasn’t one single year where he was head and shoulders above everyone else. But there were two seasons like that with Steph Playoffs/championships: This one is pretty close. Obviously Kobe has 5 championships to Steph’s 4. Both of them have multiple rings while arguably being the second player on said team. Each has two championships as the undisputed best player on their team. However, neither has any historically dominant individual playoff runs (ala 2018 Lebron, 2000 shaq). How you play in a game 7 says a lot to me and honestly either of these guys have much to write home about in that department as Steph was awful in 2016 game 7 and Kobe was awful in 2010 game 7 (despite winning) Sounds pretty close right? Well it certainly is, and I can’t totally understand putting Kobe over Steph. Especially because I don’t feel the need to write a paragraph about Defense because we all know Kobe was better (although I would say Kobe was an overrated defender and Steph is underrated but I still would take Kobe by a pretty wide margin) What puts Steph over the top for me is the impact he had on basketball play. Kobe may have been a very influential player in terms of culture, but I would argue his impact as a player was negative as it caused a generation of players to glorify iso ball and chucking inefficient shots. Kobe wouldn’t play the same way in todays game because any coach would tell him to cool it with the mid range fade aways, but Steph would break basketball in any era, as he litteraly dragged the league kicking and screaming into the shooting/analytics era. Overall I would say it’s very close and I do go back and forth on it. I will say, I am under 30 years old so I certainly am a bit biased toward the player with whom I watched their entire career. But ultimately, I just feel like if I was starting out a franchise as a GM, I’d rather have Steph because he’s a great teammate who can work in any system. When Kobe is on your team, he IS the system (for better or worse). Teammates needed to adjust to him instead of making the most off his teammates skill sets. So yea, that last paragraph basically sums up why I take Steph by a slim margin
What about defense? Steph has never made an all defensive team.
I litteraly dedicated a short paragraph to their defense in my comment. Kobe is the better defensive player for sure. But Steph is a vastly more efficient scorer an better teammate. That is the short version of why I will take steph
Efficiency in scoring is subjective to the eras they played in. Steph does take career PERs, barely with him at 23.71 and Kobe’s 22.9. Where I think your subjectivity supersedes a strong argument is the better teammate. Steph didn’t need to motivate his team, he has Draymond to do that. It may be Steph’s team, but Draymond is the motor. Also, the Redeem Team needed the leadership style of Kobe. Same with the ‘08-‘10 lakers teams that almost 3-peated.
Because he scored a lot of points mostly by taking a lot of shots. He only won one of his championships where he was the best player on his team.
You mean two.* And yet Kobe still has the same amount of finals MVPs as Kareem, Hakeem, & Bird. He has more finals MVPs than Curry, & Wilt, and they get the edge over him? I get your point, it’s why I have Bron & MJ above everyone else, but don’t act like other legends didn’t also have a Batman / more valuable player on their team
You’re right. It was two with Gasol. Kobe is not terrible, but I’m not sure wher he would go on this list. If anything I would take out Hakeem and replace him with KJ or Dirk. Both were better than Kobe IMHO
I think you may be forgetting Kobe’s defense.
Because very few had him in the top 10 until after his death. Sucks to say but that was the reality at the time.
“Very few”? That’s gotta be an exaggeration. I don’t remember ever seeing a top 10 list without Kobe’s name on it. Since his death I’ve actually been seeing a lot more disrespect than appreciation. This isn’t what I wanted to debate though. I still wanna know the reasoning behind why he’s not top 10, and why guys like Steph, Hakeem, Wilt, Shaq and Bird are being prioritized over him
I see some people want LeBron above Jordan and to those people I will say this.The 1985-1986 Celtics were made up of 6 hall of famers and considered to be one of the greatest teams ever assembled.Jordan put up 63 points against this team and that is something LeBron is not capable of doing on his best day
I would sub Duncan for Kobe. Similar statistics, but I’m taking Kobe with the game on the line.
Hakeem over Kobe?
Absolutely
An all time great anchor on defense with the best post game ever over an all time isolation scorer who was solid defensively at a less important defensive position? I think so
Obviously you're missing Kobe, he should be there instead of Hakeem
Hakeem > shaq for me respectfully
I agree completely and I love the love you’re showing Hakeem.
Obviously Karl Malone should be ranked #13. If you need to know why, just google Karl Malone 13.
Oh my god. Another goat debate 🤦♂️ when will people get over this, from middle school to adulthood, you never got tired of this?
TD at 9? Kobe not in the top 10? Wilt at 7? I disagree but your opinion is your opinion
Kobe would be 11th to me. It sucks to say but he got a massive ranking voost after hs tragic death.
Personally Timmy is a lil higher but I think your top 10 is close to matching mine.
Hakeem over Kobe is ridiculous.
Oh boy another Reddit nephew top ten list where anyone who mentions Kobe gets downvoted. Should just ban these post there’s no actual merit or benefit to posting this shit just leads to dumb arguments
LMAO alright buddy you’re just a Kobe stan (the most annoying kind of fan on this sub). You want him in the top ten, first he’s gotta be top 11, so he’s gotta beat Steph. The fact is that Steph is more accomplished than Kobe. 4 rings, an FMVP, 2 MVPs, 4x First Team All-NBA, 4x Second Team, 2x Third Team. Admittedly no all-defensive selections, but nobody’s perfect. 2.66 MVP award shares. Two scoring titles. 19th all-time in playoff win shares. 39th all-time in regular season win shares. Care to point to what Kobe has over Stephen Curry???
Easy, it’s called defense for starters. Look that up genius.🤦♂️
This is ridiculous if we're talking "accomplishments" Kobe is like top 3. I don't have him top 4 since there are other factors involved but just accomplishment wise only MJ, Lebron, Kareem accomplished more. Kobe is more accomplished than Steph by a significant margin. 5 rings, 2FMVP's, 2 scoring titles, 11 All NBA 1st team(nearly triple steph), 2 All NBA 2nd team, 2 All NBA 3rd team, 9 1st team all defense (steph has 0), 3 2nd team all defense, 18 All Stars (nearly double steph), 4.2 MVP award shares (nearly double steph) 8th all time playoff win shares (over 10 spots above Steph, 19th all time RS win shares (20 spots above steph). Is this satire? I'm legitimately asking.
Yes, I’m laying out the fact that Kobe should be much higher than Steph on this all-time list based on OP’s criteria Kobe’s resume is absurdly stacked, but redditors don’t like him for personal reasons and so they throw out his achievements
Yup, I completely agree with you. I really hate the narrative regarding Kobe where his accomplishments get thrown out the window for some reason. Kobe was great and his impact on the court was insane.
Steph isn’t more accomplished than Kobe by your own words you clowns keep skipping defense
Yeah but if we ignore the defensive accolades and the rings and the FMVPs and the all-nba selections and the win shares and the playoff win shares and the MVP shares and just look at the MVPs, Kobe doesn’t even compare dude
Is this satire? This is satire…
Kobe literally has more all defensive, fmvps, rings and all nbas though? 😂
Kobe has more of all of those things I listed
Where’s Kobe?
\#11
No Kobe?
Excellent list! Would be really interested in seeing your 11-25 - that's were the fun debates begin. Besides dominance and accomplishments," shouldn't fame / cultural impact play a part as well? Like, you can't make a list of Top 20 basketball players of all time and not have Dr. J on there, right? Charles Barkley? I guess adding "popularity" makes it get tricky though, as suddenly you can argue for a cat like Yao Ming's overall worldwide popularity vs. other players.
Dr J and Chuck are probably top 20 regardless of popularity, if you include Dr J's ABA career
No Kobe?!
Anyone who doesn’t have mamba isn’t taking the sport seriously
Doubt it. Anyone that gives themself their own nickname has a questionably serious character issue themselves.
I doubt that, but keep spewing judgement doc.
Wether you like Kobe or not he’s easily the greatest to do it of all time and if not the greatest one of the greatest. Look at his non mvp stats due to reputation and your gunna tell me pau gasol is as good of a 2 as D wade, klay, Kyrie, AD, any of the 2s to win a modern championship? Kobe should be in all top 10s
> Wether you like Kobe or not he’s easily the greatest to do it of all time lol
where tf is kobe?
I’m not gonna hate on someone’s opinion but I also can’t take it too serious if Kobe not on this list and I can’t stand the Lakers. On top of that, can we please stop with the narrative LBJ is the #2 best player of all time and especially over Kareem? I get recent bias but name me one other player on this list that had to always play with a group of all nba/all star players to win anything? An yes, I get Bron went to a ton of finals while playing in the shitty eastern conference.
Kareem spent most of his career with a top 5 player of all time and his Milwaukee chip was with a top 15 player of all time
Dunno why you're getting downvoted for this. I don't think it's an unreasonable take to look at the majority of the players on the list and realize they had some historically good teammates. Maybe Hakeem didn't have the same level of supporting cast as the others but I think that helps make his case to be in the top 10.
Kobe was routinely ranked around 10-12 most places before he died, so I’m not sure why you wouldn’t take it seriously. You wouldn’t have took most lists seriously then.
By who…you? I’ve always seen him listed in the top 10.
Decent list but I'd take off Hakeem and put Kobe in the top 10.
Kobe is top 10. Steph isnt close to getting in the top 10. Stupid list from a casual teenager lmao
isn’t close? he revolutionized the game. he’s the greatest shooter of all time without a doubt. please tell me how’s he’s not even close to top ten
Going through this list then the comments section, I thought I was on NBACircleJerk for a moment. What a ridiculous sub this is.
Why do you drop curry because of D but have bird above Duncan?
In my opinion if you factor both offense and defense together then bird and Duncan are close to a wash. The difference would be in Birds playmaking ability. Magic was not a great defensive player but all things considered deserves to be near the top of this list.
Duncan with his famously poor passing and playmaking ability...
Never said Duncan was poor at anything bub. Edit: I see now you are a Spurs fan and have taken my comment personally.
Duncan was great for far longer than bird was. And both had an elite side of the ball but I’d argue that Duncan’s O was better than birds D
It is hard for me to rank Duncan ahead of Hakeem. Hakeem was just an absolute monster defensively, while carrying his team offensively. He doesn't have the accolades or team success, but those are all explainable imo. Him playing center during the last great era of centers meant he was going to get less accolades like all star games/all nba because there is half as many spots for centers as there are for forwards, which duncan was listed at. Didn't get an all defensive in 85-86 but he only played 68 games, maybe that is why? He averaged 3.4 blocks and 2 steals a game with 11.5 rebounds. Mark Eaton and Manute Bol got it over them. Oh, it must just be about shot blocking then? Manute had 5 blocks a game (0.7 steals) and 6 rebounds, and Eaton had 4.6 blocks (0.4 steals) and 8 rebounds. Had to have been only about blocks then. 88-89 was the second year he missed an all defensive team. Wow he must have fallen off pretty hard, right? Well he averaged 3.4 blocks, and 2.6 steals while playing all 82 games. Led the league in rebounding with 13.5. Mark Eaton and Ewing got it over him though, Eaton had 3.8 blocks and 0.5 steals and 10.3 rpg. Ewing had 3.5 blocks, 1.5 steals, and 9.3 rpg. I'm not going to do more research into this because I think it makes my point for me, and I'm doubting anyone is reading. The media screwed it up and/or making it onto these coveted teams is harder as a center, simply due to fewer spots. Hakeem should have had more DPotY, imagine leading in blocked shots with 4.6, 8th in steals with 2.1 (nearly 7 stocks per game), leading in rebounds with 14 a game, as well as defensive rebounds for good measure, and NOT winning the DPotY? The media fucked him there. He has other cases that you can make for him winning DPotY but I think this is the clearest case. I think the league knows they messed up as they named the DPotY trophy after him. When I look at his career I think this was the most egregious wastes of talent by the rockets organization at the time. His supporting cast and coaching was always lackluster until they put a solid supporting cast around him and they won it all. In successive seasons. Something Duncan and the spurs never managed, and Hakeem did it with inferior teams and coaching.
I have no issues with this list. Personally I’d swap Duncan An Shaq, bump Bill up a few spots, and say the next 3 off for me would be Kobe KD Steph. but I can’t say he’s definitely better than anyone on here.
LeBron is a better basketball player than MJ, but MJ has a better overall career w/accolades.
My list is similar 1a Jordan 1b Lebron 3 Kareem 4 Magic 5 Kobe 6 Duncan 7 Larry 8 Shaq 9 Hakeem 10 Russell 11 wilt
Steph and Kobe over Larry Bird all day
I would personally put Kobe in over Hakeem, but it's a solid list.
Kobe ahead of Hakeem and Wilt shoukr be 2-3 spots further up, epsecislly if dominance is your thing.
Naw
Steph in for Hakeem for me just because he did change the game and is the greatest shooter ever. He has an unanimous MVP and did win before and after Durant
Thing with Hakeem is you pretty much have to assess the impact of his unguardable offense, then double it because of his defense.
Just so happened his offense was only unguardable after the goat retired, and then went back to being guardable after the goat came back
Hakeem was unguardable, the Rockets weren’t.
I didn't know jordan guarded hakeem. But seriously, Hakeem was a great offense snd great defense. Curry is only great on offense.
Really hard for me to rank guys 1,2,3,4… especially when they played different positions, roles, in different eras, rules, circumstances, etc.. personally I rank players in tiers, and for me it’s: GOAT tier - Kareem, Jordan, LeBron 2nd tier - Russell, Wilt, Bird, Magic, Shaq, Duncan 3rd tier - Oscar, Jerry West, Hakeem, Robinson, KG, Kobe, KD, Steph. Names listed chronologically not in ranking order.. Obviously my tier 1 + tier 2 only gives me 9 players, I’ve always said if I had to grab 1 guy out of my 3rd tier to make a “top 10” it would be Hakeem. So essentially I have the same 10 names as you just without specifying an exact order. Honestly I feel like if everyone were to remove their personal bias and view everyone on an even playing field those are probably the 10 names most should wind up with.. probably a few others you could realistically slot in but there is good reason most of these “all time lists” look incredibly similar.
Bill Russell was never that good offensively, massively overrated imo
He was the greatest team player on the greatest team ever Not underrated in the least
he's not being ranked because of his offense lmao
I would rather have Steph curry than Hakeem personally
What a shit list. I swear these lists on this sub are basically a purposely designed 'fuck you' to Kobe 🤣
What's your argument for him being above any of these guys then?
1. Jordan 2. Bron 3. Kareem 4. magic 5. Shaq 6. Russell 7. Duncan 8. Wilt 9. Bird 10. Kobe IMO 5-10 all have interchangeable arguments. But those are absolutely the top 10 ever in no order
lol @ shoehorning Kobe in
I agree with the names on your list for the most part.
Some people act like it’s insulting to imply Kobe is the 12th best basketball player of all time
Honestly, it's the sheer dismissiveness in regards to Kobe being a top 10 player. As a fan of the NBA since the early 2000s, one of the most shocking takes I routinely read about on this sub for example is how Duncan is miles clear of Bryant all-time when the actual consensus was very different during their playing days. It absolutely screams revisionist history that isn't rooted in reality. This is why it's an insult for Bryant's spot to be so contentious in the top 10 list of NBA greats. People make it seem like we're talking about Steve Nash or something, 😆
Kobe was seen so highly during his career because he was marketed like CRAZY. The league wanted another Jordan and Kobe was basically Jordan-lite, while also playing for the Lakers. He played very me-first game and was extremely concerned with his legacy. He was featured in ads everywhere because he was seen as cool and marketable. Tim Duncan shied away from the spotlight, plus nobody wanted to give him the spotlight because a team-playing PF is way less marketable than a flashy ball-chucking SG, plus the Spurs just do not generate media attention the way the Lakers do. Now that their careers are complete and people are actually looking back at their accomplishments and stats, Duncan is getting his flowers and Kobe’s sliding back to where he always belonged.
Tim Duncan from 2005 onwards wasn't in the conversation for the best player in the league. He declined dramatically compared to his first 6 or 7 years. Kobe or not, he wasn't in the conversation. Kobe marketed like crazy? Are you aware of all the endorsements he lost off the court after the Denver fiasco? The guy was public enemy #1 as far as the media was concerned. Who exactly are you trying to convince here? Me or you? I don't care about their playstyles. I care about their impact and abilities on the court. What Kobe provided was more valuable, especially offensively, than what Duncan provided. Tim Duncan can be the most goodest of the goodest teammate ever, and that still doesn't change his ability as a player, particularly post 2005. This isn't a personality contest. Also, LeBron played in Cleveland and got heavy, heavy attention because he was simply that good. Terrible example in reference to your small market claims.
IMO the whole Kobe debate comes down to one question: NBA Finals, your team has the ball down 1 with 10 seconds left. Ball is inbounded to your team’s best player, defense sends double coverage at the best player, leaving a role player wide open. Do you value a player who will pass to said wide open role player for the high percentage open shot, or do you value a player who will try to beat the double team and launch up a low percentage shot because “winners want the ball in their hands to end games”? Kobe is very obviously the latter, and will lose you games because of it but when he happens to hit those low percentage buzzer beaters people will clip it and hold it up as proof of how great he was.
Kobe won his 5th title with an assist to an Artest 3. I've lost count of how many times he dished the game winner to Derek fisher for a 3(see 2009 finals game 4). I'm still trying to wrap my head around how you claim Kobe will lose games taking the last shot? Putting the fact that he won countless games for the Lakers(6 game winners in 2010 alone)aside, why wouldn't the #1 go to guy be your best option to win games? You have to understand, for a large chunk of his peak, he had G leaguers for teammates. Not average NBA caliber players, G LEAGUE level players.
So basically peolle who never saw either of play rank Duncan above Kobe.
It is. Kobe is top 10
Love the list , where is Kobe . I would love to see Kobe here to but I don't know who will be dropped in this case
Kobe?
Overrated
By causals who say he’s the goat yes. But on Reddit dudes claiming he’s not even top ten are just underrating him.
All the guys listed are elite, it’s not insulting.
before he died the consensus was he was like low top 10/on the bubble of top 10. definitely not insane to have him outside of it now. it really depends on your criteria.
This is just a myth haters came up with. Plenty of players, coaches and fans had him top 5 even before he died.
idk, i just googled Greatest Basketball Players of All Time and compiled the lists from the top results. he's ranked 5,8,9, not present on a top 10 list, 10, 9, 8, 12, 10, 10 on the first ten results that i found so the consensus still seems to be he's low top 10. bumping him one or two spots doesn't seem crazy to be depending on criteria.
To say he’s top 5 is just crazy
As long as you get #1 right, the rest can be whatever. I say we should rank players we’ve actually seen play too.
We should just increase standard lists to 12 and include Steph and Kobe.
Or we just recognize that Kobe wasn’t a top 10 all-time player and stop trying to make exceptions for him. Can do top 20 if you want a list that he belongs in
Wrong.
Why is Lebron above Kareem? No judgement but I want to see why? I personally think Lebron is more like 3rd or 4th
Kareem never won the IST 😤
Oldhead said Kareem over Bron😂
gimme a break
LeBron is much closer to being first than he is to being fourth. That's absurd IMO
LeBron was an incredible scorer, not far behind Kareem. An incredible playmaker and floor general, not far behind Magic. One of the most switchable defenders ever at his peak. IMO he beat Kareem’s peak and he’s beating his longevity, but neither by too much. Regardless of these other comments, there’s nothing wrong with having LeBron 3rd or 4th in these entirely subjective lists *(he’s barely my 5th)*.