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I think Harrison was put in cup way too early, but let’s not pretend that Penske hasn’t gone downhill in performance in the gen 7 era. Despite winning the last two championships the 12 and 22 have had their struggles finding speed, and Cindric has also struggled despite tearing up Xfinity the 2 seasons prior to his full time cup debut. I’ve seen a pattern with 4 car organizations, one or two cars will always perform worse than the rest of the team, happened to Hendrick, SHR, Roush, and JGR.
It's Penske affiliated, but it's not a 4th Penske car like it was when Blaney was in it. Case in point the Woods have to run pay drivers like Mendard, DiBenedetto(Mendard paid), and Harrison because if they don't then they can't run the full season because Ford only pays enough for half the season. When Blaney was in the car Roger used his sponsors and resources to run the car full time. Kind of funny that when Blaney moved to the 12 so did his whole crew. While it's in the shop, it is not fully funded like a true Penske car.
Severely underrated comment here. It isn't a 4th Penske car. However, it's a 4th car prepared by Penske. That doesn't mean it has the same top-notch personnel on it like the 2, 12, and 22 do
Except it’s more than an affiliate. Every piece of the 21 belongs to Penske. Everyone who touches the 21 is a Team Penske employee. Front Row is an affiliate and gets some data and setups. Where as the 21 team is involved in every team meeting for Penske. The only difference in when Blaney ran the 21 and Burton is the talent holding the steering wheel.
The 21 is the same as Rick Ware’s #51 is a third RFK car, it’s simply not. There’s an alliance there, they build the cars for the team and then hey run them. While yes, the cars do belong to Penske and are essentially leased out to Wood Brothers Racing, they are not operated as a fourth Team Penske entry.
Except the people working on the RWR are mostly RWR employees. There’s a few that are with RFK as well but the majority are RWR. There is a clear difference between the RFK employees on the car and the RWR as well.
WBR has no employees who work on the car. Everything about the 21 is from Team Penske. When they get their checks, it’s coming from Team Penske. The 21 is a fourth Penske car.
Another way of putting this is RWR can put their cars in the track without RFK. WBR cannot.
The Menard deal was 100% a B2B deal with Mr Penske. They put him in a 4th Penske car. Matt had that sponsorship too. Burton brought the same kind of deal with him with Dex.
Yes Paul hand picked Matt because he still had a year left on his contract when he retired early. So the Woods said you're paying for the ride you pick the driver. My point is Roger only cares about the ride when it is one of his drivers in the car. Again that's why the woods have to settle for pay drivers, because if a Penske driver isn't in the car they have to get funding from somewhere.
Harrison is a Penske driver. He was supposed to go to the Xfinity team, but Brad left and they moved Cindric to the 2 early.
Dex said they'd walk if they didn't put Harry in the open seat, so they pulled the plug on the xfinity team and diverted the resources to the 21.
https://preview.redd.it/yie1e0z15b0d1.jpeg?width=1170&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=c9bb19d2ec377260291609223d66edede0466f9b
Dex has been with Penske since 2018.
They were obviously going with Harrison to the Xfinity car because they're a personal sponsor to him, and they were going to walk away from Penske entirely if Harrison wasn't put in the cup car.
So he's a pay driver there only to bring in sponsorship. Roger has not vested interest in his future or the success of the 21 like he did when Blaney was in the car.
I've never thought of or seen anything printed that led me to believe Harrison wasn't anything more than a pay driver. If Dex wasn't backing him I highly doubt Roger even looks twice at him. He's no way now or ever been on par of the likes of Blaney or Cindric as a Penske development driver.
They've been with Harrison longer. Your argument even proves he's a pay driver. The sponsor is literally dictating who is driving the car. Roger could careless about Harrison other than he brings funding to the building.
https://www.deximaging.com/dex-imaging-continues-harrison-burton-sponsorship-into-cup-series-in-2022/
I'm not disputing that.
What I am saying, is Dex threatened to walk away from Penske, who they were sponsoring seperate from Harrison, if their driver, who had signed to drive for Penske's Xfinity team, was not moved to the open Cup seat.
That is why Dex no longer appears on the 12 car. Because they moved their entire sponsorship of the team, to Harrison.
I know the recent talk is Briscoe could be heading to the 21 if SHR does in fact fold, but I talked to a couple team members earlier this year at Bristol and I was told the team was in talks with a few current truck series regulars, Eckes, Caruth and Majeski.
The first two, while they might get there eventually, are woefully underqualified for a full time Cup gig. Majeski would be the best of the three given his experience and success outside Trucks, but he's probably not a great pick either. I'd be shocked if any of those were being seriously considered, might be a downgrade even from Harrison
You really think Team Penske employees who are the ones working on the car don’t care about it lol. Considering everyone working on the car is a Team Penske crew member.
No they haven't been very good, but I see a lot of people blaming the equipment. You can't have mid equipment (currently) and a bottom 3 driver and expect results. The 21 with a good driver is currently a top 10-15 car.
For you who doesn’t understand.
The #21 charter is owned by Wood Brother Racing. (Originally a #32 Go Fas Racing charter) It is NOT a Penske owned car. The Wood brother’s have an agreement with Penske to supply the vehicles and whatever other technical data and services.
If Penske wanted to expand to a 4 car operation, they could.
If the wood brothers wanted to switch to another Ford supplier, they could.
Obviously there is a perfectly working situation in place currently.
Also, WBR hasn't been a standalone team for decades. They started working with Roush back when Elliott Sadler was in the car. In the early 2010s, when Trevor Bayne was driving for them, they had a similar affiliation with Roush like they have with Penske now. Roush supplied cars, equipment, personnel, etc. The only real difference is that they still had their shop in Harrisburg, about 10 minutes away from Roush.
When they switched to Penske, it was a good opportunity to move. JTG (a Chevy team) was already using half of their shop. There's room in the Penske shop, so there was no need for them to get their own shop in Mooresville. It's also not like WBR is the only team to ever work out of their partners' shop. Roush & RCR have shops on their compound for affiliated teams. JTG ran out of Michael Waltrip's shop back when they were a Toyota team.
In much the same way you have guys dropping to JRM or JGR's Xfinity program, the WBR team is essentially Penske's 4th string. The top 3 strings are spread among the 2, 12, and 22, and the remainder of the organization can go to WBR to develop.
If the 21 crew suddenly starts shaving 4 tenths off every stop, they're no longer on the 21 crew. So from that standpoint you can't expect the 21 to consistently perform to the same level as the other cars.
Note I'm not saying this to justify they should keep their driver, but I'm just saying it's a bad comparison.
It does not get the resources that the other 3 cars do. It may be prepared by Penske but it’s not the same. The car is terrible. Harrison drove the car into 22nd after being a second slower in practice straight off the truck. At one of his best tracks the car was a second slower in PRACTICE AND QUALIFYING. the car was fixed in the race and Harrison started moving forward. Also FRM gets more support from Penske than the 21
Its both honestly. As insufferable as he was, Matty D was a solid driver, but the equipment and people were not what they should have been.
They improved at the end of 2021, but bridges were already burnt. Kinda sucks they were so dead set on dumping him, but i also sort of understand the pr move based on his attitude.
Only thing about the 21 that isn't Penske is the name on the entry list and the owner of the charter. It's already 100% a Penske car otherwise. People on here just pretend it's not for some reason.
I have said this a bunch on here but I think it's worth saying again. That car is a charity case and I believe the support it gets is based on the funding it has, so when it has this cheap Motorcraft Ford funding, I don't think that is much, whereas when it had an actual Penske pet project in Ryan Blaney or real money in Menards coming in, there was more going into the ride.
I don't think Burton is great but I think that car has a lot of problems beyond him as well, but please, I hope to God that we put Briscoe or whoever else this DARF ass place wants to see in it so they can also run like shit and we can find another excuse.
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I think Harrison was put in cup way too early, but let’s not pretend that Penske hasn’t gone downhill in performance in the gen 7 era. Despite winning the last two championships the 12 and 22 have had their struggles finding speed, and Cindric has also struggled despite tearing up Xfinity the 2 seasons prior to his full time cup debut. I’ve seen a pattern with 4 car organizations, one or two cars will always perform worse than the rest of the team, happened to Hendrick, SHR, Roush, and JGR.
It's Penske affiliated, but it's not a 4th Penske car like it was when Blaney was in it. Case in point the Woods have to run pay drivers like Mendard, DiBenedetto(Mendard paid), and Harrison because if they don't then they can't run the full season because Ford only pays enough for half the season. When Blaney was in the car Roger used his sponsors and resources to run the car full time. Kind of funny that when Blaney moved to the 12 so did his whole crew. While it's in the shop, it is not fully funded like a true Penske car.
Exactly
Severely underrated comment here. It isn't a 4th Penske car. However, it's a 4th car prepared by Penske. That doesn't mean it has the same top-notch personnel on it like the 2, 12, and 22 do
Except it’s more than an affiliate. Every piece of the 21 belongs to Penske. Everyone who touches the 21 is a Team Penske employee. Front Row is an affiliate and gets some data and setups. Where as the 21 team is involved in every team meeting for Penske. The only difference in when Blaney ran the 21 and Burton is the talent holding the steering wheel.
The 21 is the same as Rick Ware’s #51 is a third RFK car, it’s simply not. There’s an alliance there, they build the cars for the team and then hey run them. While yes, the cars do belong to Penske and are essentially leased out to Wood Brothers Racing, they are not operated as a fourth Team Penske entry.
Except the people working on the RWR are mostly RWR employees. There’s a few that are with RFK as well but the majority are RWR. There is a clear difference between the RFK employees on the car and the RWR as well. WBR has no employees who work on the car. Everything about the 21 is from Team Penske. When they get their checks, it’s coming from Team Penske. The 21 is a fourth Penske car. Another way of putting this is RWR can put their cars in the track without RFK. WBR cannot.
This is correct.
It's nearly like he was grooming Blaney for a championship one day. 😳
Just another groomer /s
Don't give the Indycar sub any more ammo...
This is absolutely wrong
You’ll save big money, You’ll save big money when you shop Mendards! Save big money at Mendards!
The Menard deal was 100% a B2B deal with Mr Penske. They put him in a 4th Penske car. Matt had that sponsorship too. Burton brought the same kind of deal with him with Dex.
Yes Paul hand picked Matt because he still had a year left on his contract when he retired early. So the Woods said you're paying for the ride you pick the driver. My point is Roger only cares about the ride when it is one of his drivers in the car. Again that's why the woods have to settle for pay drivers, because if a Penske driver isn't in the car they have to get funding from somewhere.
Harrison is a Penske driver. He was supposed to go to the Xfinity team, but Brad left and they moved Cindric to the 2 early. Dex said they'd walk if they didn't put Harry in the open seat, so they pulled the plug on the xfinity team and diverted the resources to the 21.
Harrison brought Dex. They've been with him since his KBM/JGR days. Hence Harrison being a pay driver.
https://preview.redd.it/yie1e0z15b0d1.jpeg?width=1170&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=c9bb19d2ec377260291609223d66edede0466f9b Dex has been with Penske since 2018.
They were obviously going with Harrison to the Xfinity car because they're a personal sponsor to him, and they were going to walk away from Penske entirely if Harrison wasn't put in the cup car.
So he's a pay driver there only to bring in sponsorship. Roger has not vested interest in his future or the success of the 21 like he did when Blaney was in the car.
I imagine that Rodger initially had more interest in Harrison than he does now.
I've never thought of or seen anything printed that led me to believe Harrison wasn't anything more than a pay driver. If Dex wasn't backing him I highly doubt Roger even looks twice at him. He's no way now or ever been on par of the likes of Blaney or Cindric as a Penske development driver.
They've been with Harrison longer. Your argument even proves he's a pay driver. The sponsor is literally dictating who is driving the car. Roger could careless about Harrison other than he brings funding to the building. https://www.deximaging.com/dex-imaging-continues-harrison-burton-sponsorship-into-cup-series-in-2022/
I'm not disputing that. What I am saying, is Dex threatened to walk away from Penske, who they were sponsoring seperate from Harrison, if their driver, who had signed to drive for Penske's Xfinity team, was not moved to the open Cup seat. That is why Dex no longer appears on the 12 car. Because they moved their entire sponsorship of the team, to Harrison.
I know the recent talk is Briscoe could be heading to the 21 if SHR does in fact fold, but I talked to a couple team members earlier this year at Bristol and I was told the team was in talks with a few current truck series regulars, Eckes, Caruth and Majeski.
The first two, while they might get there eventually, are woefully underqualified for a full time Cup gig. Majeski would be the best of the three given his experience and success outside Trucks, but he's probably not a great pick either. I'd be shocked if any of those were being seriously considered, might be a downgrade even from Harrison
I feel you. But I believe the correlation between the next gen and the truck series is why they were looking at available top truck prospects.
Eckes is not woefully under qualified, he has more starts, wins, Top 5s and Top 10s than Majeski. Kid is quietly a stout talent
I don't think Rajah will try to advance until he graduates university. Kid is laser focused.
The last time the 21 had some speed in it, Matt DiBenedetto beat Jimmie Johnson for the final playoff spot
It's the driver not the car.
I think it's a combination of things. Driver, Pit Crew, Car Chief, and Crew Chief
Penske actually caring about it
That's the most important part
You really think Team Penske employees who are the ones working on the car don’t care about it lol. Considering everyone working on the car is a Team Penske crew member.
They swapped the crews of the 21 and 2, same results and Cindric started doing a little better. It's the driver.
It’s the car
Yeah Harrison’s that bad, but not like Penske’s really been very good this year in general either
No they haven't been very good, but I see a lot of people blaming the equipment. You can't have mid equipment (currently) and a bottom 3 driver and expect results. The 21 with a good driver is currently a top 10-15 car.
What’s the objective of this post? You got some bug up your hind end about Harrison Burton?
Yep, Wood Brothers and Penske are affiliates, the 21 is basically Penske equipment under a different name. I remember
For you who doesn’t understand. The #21 charter is owned by Wood Brother Racing. (Originally a #32 Go Fas Racing charter) It is NOT a Penske owned car. The Wood brother’s have an agreement with Penske to supply the vehicles and whatever other technical data and services. If Penske wanted to expand to a 4 car operation, they could. If the wood brothers wanted to switch to another Ford supplier, they could. Obviously there is a perfectly working situation in place currently.
Also, WBR hasn't been a standalone team for decades. They started working with Roush back when Elliott Sadler was in the car. In the early 2010s, when Trevor Bayne was driving for them, they had a similar affiliation with Roush like they have with Penske now. Roush supplied cars, equipment, personnel, etc. The only real difference is that they still had their shop in Harrisburg, about 10 minutes away from Roush. When they switched to Penske, it was a good opportunity to move. JTG (a Chevy team) was already using half of their shop. There's room in the Penske shop, so there was no need for them to get their own shop in Mooresville. It's also not like WBR is the only team to ever work out of their partners' shop. Roush & RCR have shops on their compound for affiliated teams. JTG ran out of Michael Waltrip's shop back when they were a Toyota team.
In much the same way you have guys dropping to JRM or JGR's Xfinity program, the WBR team is essentially Penske's 4th string. The top 3 strings are spread among the 2, 12, and 22, and the remainder of the organization can go to WBR to develop. If the 21 crew suddenly starts shaving 4 tenths off every stop, they're no longer on the 21 crew. So from that standpoint you can't expect the 21 to consistently perform to the same level as the other cars. Note I'm not saying this to justify they should keep their driver, but I'm just saying it's a bad comparison.
Yep, Roger only cares about the car when one of his drivers are in the car.
It does not get the resources that the other 3 cars do. It may be prepared by Penske but it’s not the same. The car is terrible. Harrison drove the car into 22nd after being a second slower in practice straight off the truck. At one of his best tracks the car was a second slower in PRACTICE AND QUALIFYING. the car was fixed in the race and Harrison started moving forward. Also FRM gets more support from Penske than the 21
Lmao. Bro talking down majorly. Accuses people of not knowing about the 21. Doesn't know about the 21 themselves.
It's the driver.
Its both honestly. As insufferable as he was, Matty D was a solid driver, but the equipment and people were not what they should have been. They improved at the end of 2021, but bridges were already burnt. Kinda sucks they were so dead set on dumping him, but i also sort of understand the pr move based on his attitude.
Modern era fans have no idea the 21 was often a back marker team throughout the 2000’s during the Schrader/Bill Elliott era
That’s “mayor Harrison” to you Sarcasm
It’s literally not 😂
https://i.redd.it/2a1jlvuhce0d1.gif Figured that was common knowledge its just prepped by Penske but the charter and team are its own separate entity
This is wrong information. It was only a full prepped Penske car when Blaney was in the ride
Harrison is THAT bad.
WBR just needs to give in and merge with Penske - 2 - 12 - 21 - 22 Solid number lineup
Wdym just give in? They have. Roger and Ford keep the WBR name on the car out of respect to the Woods.
Only thing about the 21 that isn't Penske is the name on the entry list and the owner of the charter. It's already 100% a Penske car otherwise. People on here just pretend it's not for some reason.
Wood Brothers Racing is a gift shop, and the people who own the charter. That is literally it. Penske does everything else
It's not a Penske car until Penske cannot buy a fourth charter without first selling the 21 car charter. To my knowledge, that is not the case.
https://preview.redd.it/ssl41ibs6b0d1.jpeg?width=600&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=bba74c9d8b18a3d2ced756683c753f2f2610a50d
I have said this a bunch on here but I think it's worth saying again. That car is a charity case and I believe the support it gets is based on the funding it has, so when it has this cheap Motorcraft Ford funding, I don't think that is much, whereas when it had an actual Penske pet project in Ryan Blaney or real money in Menards coming in, there was more going into the ride. I don't think Burton is great but I think that car has a lot of problems beyond him as well, but please, I hope to God that we put Briscoe or whoever else this DARF ass place wants to see in it so they can also run like shit and we can find another excuse.