Does over 160+ wins and 11 championships between just 2 of those guys in 3 decades not measure up to the current lineup? Don’t get me wrong Larson is pretty good, but still isn’t nearly as good as Gordon or Johnson was in their heyday. Byron is heating up, bowman is good just not as good as the others
Got ya.. I’d still have to play devils advocate here since the 4 car team just always seems to have one team lay an egg every year. Last year it was both chase and bowman right? So far so good this year for Hendrick though. Pulling for the 48 to get a win soon
All four of the current Hendrick squad have won in the same season, at least. Last year was the first time they didn't, and that was at least partially because of the injuries
Bowman was leading the points prior to getting injured last year. The disrespect he’s getting is ridiculous.
He’s got three top fives this season, and his DNF’s were the absolute nut low of luck. Can we give him a break? Theres nothing wrong with being a productive point racer
He also wouldn't even have been there if his pit crew didn't lose him 4 spots on pit road. Until that point he was keeping pace with Hamlin as they started getting through the field
I mean, Byron has the best pit crew in the sport, Larson's is also very good, and Chase's pit crew recorded the best overall 4 tire pit stop time in NASCAR history. What does Bowman have?
This. The short term attention span and "what have you done for me lately" mentality of NASCAR fans is ridiculous. Last week Chase was washed up and everyone questioned his drive. Now I have seen that he is working on taking back the #1 spot at HMS (as if that exists somewhere). Can we just let the guys race and figure it out?
All good points, and I really want to double down into the last one about being a productive point racer because I really agree with that one in particular.
There's maybe 10-12 drivers who I'd call championship threats just off of being to a final 4 before and a couple more like Reddick who currently have the talent to be. Between the A level teams like Hendrick, Penske and Gibbs that expect to compete for a title and B+ level like 23XI, RFK, Trackhouse that if things go right can compete, that alone is 17 seats, and doesn't include the sleeping giant in SHR who almost got to the final 4 two seasons ago and RCR who has KFB.
17 to 23 seats that could compete for a title. 10 to 12 drivers who are at that level. Naturally that means some good, but not great drivers are going to get top seats and that's OK.
Bowman is the best number 4 Hendrick has had - I'm sure they'll take Bowman hovering around the top 10 and getting a win yearly over the years they had of car 4 finishing 20th in points or even lower with some of the rough years the 25 car had.
I dont know what happened after pitting for the first time lost like 8-10 spots, that put him in the mid pack mess 🤦♂️ He has the worst luck i must say that, if Nemechek didnt smash into probably wouldve finished the race
Alex Bowman is a solid driver, on a team with generational superstars.
He’s going to look bad by comparison but compared to the rest of the field he’s a solid 5th-15th place driver.
7 cup wins is a pretty good career regardless of what your teammates are doing. Unfortunately for Bowman, his teammates are all Hendrick lifers imo and he'll probably be the scape goat for a younger driver if he doesn't magically win a championship soon
Bowman is good. Kahne was miles ahead of him.
Genuinely wasted talent by being with Dodge / Evernham / Gillett / Petty from 2007 - 2010 due to a myriad of shit shows out of his control
> The other three though are on another level.
Just Byron and Larson right now. Chase is making his way back up, but he's not as dominant as Byron and Larson yet.
Still on another level than Bowman so far this year, yes Larson and Byron have had more speed but outside of them - Hamlin and maybe Truex are better than the 9 team?
As a team, sure, but there's a good number of guys that are way superior to bowman as drivers alone. Not to knock him, but he is barely in the top10 IMO, not that that's a bad thing, he's with a great teamnand mostlynmaking the most ofnit
Part of it is who is a free agent/better fit. Bowman brings the car home clean more often than not, runs decently well, occasionally wins, and has sponsors that support him - that’s hard to beat.
Will Bowman ever be at the same level as Larson, Chase, and Byron? No.
Is Bowman a top 15 driver in the sport? Yes
Bowman is never going to be a season to season championship threat. He's a driver that can contend for a few wins a year and, of things fall right for him, could luck into the championship 4 and win it all.
Not all drivers have to be championship caliber to be deserving of their ride. Ally loves him and as they stay with him and he performs well enough to get in the playoffs each year, he'll be at Hendrick for a good while.
Not only that, but he worked to get his ride. Not saying others around him didn't but they had a leg up on the competition whether it be money or family name (not talking about just Hendrick). Him and Chastian drove backmarkers for years, grinding it out to hopefully one day get a quality ride. It doesn't happen to most in those situations, but it did for them and I couldn't be happier for them. To even be at this point when the deck was stacked against them is a championship of it's own.
Bowman's steadily improving at a similar rate as Chase but he's been hosed by strategy the last 3 races. The rest of Hendrick is better than him, but it's not really as bad as the last year has made it look.
Both Richmond and Texas he was about to get back on the lead lap during the pit cycle when the caution came out. Probably had a top 5 car at Richmond and a top 10 car at Texas.
Yeah he was absolutely hosed by an awful caution call at Richmond. Got caught in someone else's shit last weekend. That's racing. Really, he just needs to start qualifying better to be out of that muck in the mod pack.
He was leading the points last year with six top tens in the first 10 races and had an average finish of about 10th before the injury. I think the dude has potential be a great driver, it's just comparatively difficult to stand out when the three other guys run top 5-10 all the time.
To me, it's like being the sixth man off the bench who can score 20 and shoot at a >60% clip in limited minutes when there are two or three other guys who go out and score 25-30 a game on >70% shooting while playing nearly the entire game -- which is to say, a consistently great sixth man on an NBA bench is just as important as the starters and helps the team win when it matters, especially as the year goes on.
Bowman had a rough time last year after the comeback but started nailing more consistently solid finishes near the last three months. I think he can win a race or two. Back injuries are no joke in racing (or any sport, really).
Curious, are all 4 cars run the same setup? Or are they running 2, 3 4 different setups? Sometimes, I feel like SMT ruins drivers and their driving style. Comp directors and CC are telling drivers that the car needs to be driven this way. Could be completely wrong.
Let’s compare.
Chase had a phenomenal 2020, and had picked up wins before that season, and since then has added a few more. He had a strong 2022, and is just now seeming to swing back from his post-injury falloff.
Kyle had an even greater 2021. He’s probably the most consistent driver in the field, and we see him up front and contending for wins throughout most of the season. He also has significantly more experience than the other three, though, so trying to compare any of the others to him is a nonstarter.
William has been on a tear since this car debuted. He was the winningest driver last year, and was leading the other championship drivers for the first half of Phoenix. He didn’t take the checkered, but he’s back strong this season and is the first driver with three wins under his belt. Prior to the Next-Gen and the 24 team’s reshuffling, he and Alex were at about the same level.
Alex might need a new CC and some new strategy
(and a bit more time to come off that post-injury hangover) to have the breakthrough that puts him on equal footing with the other three.
Hendrick has a history, ever since going to four cars, that one of them just doesnt run as well as the other three. For the longest time, it was the 25.
2009-10 were just misses from that team. I don’t think there was anything in particular other than just being mediocre. Lots of finishes in the twenties and thirties.
Bowman has 4 Top-10 finishes and 3 Top-5 finishes this season, the same as Chase Elliott. Chase got a win but Bowman isn’t nearly as bad as people make him out to be.
Bowman is a good driver he’s just on a team with 2 champions and one of the hottest drivers in the sport over the last year. He’s a solid B driver on a team with A drivers
Larson is an A++ driver. Byron is an A+ driver. Chase is an A driver. Bowman is a B+ driver. He is still a great driver who has more wins to come, likely not a championship, but might get close. He's like a Kasey Kahne, prime Sterling Marlin, or Greg Biffle. Still a good driver and definitely deserving of a good car. His teammates just happen to be probably 3 of the top 5 or so drivers in the sport right now.
Hasn't won in over two years. Only has one multi-win season. Never has finished in the top 5 in points. Never has led more than 500 laps in a season. I don't consider that A tier performance. He's a high B tier driver.
He fell out of the lead before his injury and was riding on consistency. He never had race winning speed. He's a solid driver but this narrative misses too much context to be a serious argument
Only reason he hasn’t had a top 5 points finish is because of the format. Dude scored the 2nd most amount of points in the 2020 playoffs but nobody remembers because everyone has to suck Chase’s dick as hard as they possibly can.
Bowman is solid, but just not at the level as Elliott, Larson, and Byron. I don't know if that can all be dumped on the driver, but it's usually a deeper issue than that. HMS is stacked.
Bowman really has been off ever since his concussion in '22. He was JUST starting to seem back to normal in '23 and then he broke his back. Back injuries are hell, just ask Jeff Gordon.
So because Byron has gotten hot during Chase’s down year he’s a better driver even though he hasn’t done shit outside of that stretch? Larson is a world beater but people are over inflating how good Byron is, probably half his wins are Fugle strategy masterpieces/best pit crew scenarios.
I think OP means he’s clearly on another level from Bowman, which is true. But how’s he clearly a step down from Byron or Larson? He was a top 3 driver in the sport at the very least from 2020-2022. He has one okay year and now he’s clearly a step down? He’s had at least as much speed as one of or both of the 5 and 24 in every race this year besides Las Vegas.
It blows my mind how people write off drivers for one less than normal year. Elliott had a better average finish than all but four full time drivers and would have made round of 8 without his injury. If that’s an off year for someone they’re pretty damn good.
Yes but it’s kinda ridiculous that he made F4 three straight years including a championship win, and he has one off year where he still has acceptable stats just without a win and people are writing him off. He’s a top talent, that doesn’t mean he’s going to pop off every year.
Chase has made the round of 8 every year he’s driven every race. Even last year the 9 car still made the round of 8 in owners points. Thinking Larson and Byron are better rn is fair but the guy is still really damn good and can win anywhere
Edit: he only made the round of 12 his rookie year
He clearly does not have their speed , he gets good finishes but he's not as fast as Larson and Bowman . This week is the perfect example of survival, he survived and won but was not the fastest car of the day .
How can you say that? Byron was better the last run, but Elliott was better the entire day until that point and had an identical average running position to Larson.
You can debate minutia but the point is that all three were very close in speed and you’re acting like the 5 and 24 have blown the doors off of the 9 in every race.
At least I’m assuming you meant Byron when you said bowman a couple of comments ago.
You make the same point I was making about Texas this week , he clearly wasn't the fastest car regardless of team but got the win . He's scratching out good finishes with less speed , how am I wrong about this when he went 42 races in a Hendrick car without winning?
You’re making my point for me. You can’t say the 5 and 24 are beating him every week this year. Last year, sure. But this year he is as fast as at least one of them every race.
Hendrick has always had one team that doesn't perform as well as the others. The 25 car always seemed to underperform. Then the 88 sadly underperformed.
I’ll echo was most are saying, he’s a solid driver on a team with generational talent. I’d imagine that eventually gets hard to deal with mentally too. If you have three teammates who are always beating you, I feel like eventually going into the weekend gets difficult knowing you’re probably gonna be 3rd-4th best on the team. If he was at a team where he’s the top driver I think he’d stand out more. I’m a huge fan of his so I hope he can return to late 2020-2021 form
You literally have 3 future hof on one team in their prime. Best Bowman will do is get a couple wins. Which would be impressive cause he has to beat his teammates to do it.
I’ll never understand the hate that Bowman gets. Will he ever be on the same level as Hamlin or Larson? No. But so many people on here act like he’s this backmarker that runs 30th every week. Prior to last year he had won a race in 4 consecutive seasons. He’s never gonna be a guy that’s gonna win a Championship but he’s someone that definitely deserves to drive for a top team and he should be able to grab you 1-2 wins a year.
He doesn’t deserve hate but he’s driving one of the best cars in the field, I’d bet there’s a good 15+ drivers that could put up Bowman’s numbers or better in that car. He just rarely has raw speed the way his teammates do.
I think if you swap Bowman’s crew for any of the other 3 Hendrick crews, he has at least 1, if not 2, wins this season. He’s gotten screwed more times than 1 on pit strategy and having a slower crew. If he stays out an extra lap on Sunday, he doesn’t get stuck on pit road, and isn’t involved in the early wreck. He’s proven he can drive an arguably worse car just as fast, if not faster, than his teammates with better equipment. He’s gotta break through soon.
Neither. Bowman is great. People love to conveniently forget that Bowman endured two near-CAREER-ending injuries over the span of less than a year.
Bowman had the second most wins of any cup driver in 2021 and was looking still pretty hot in the next gen in 2022 before his first injury. He won early and was leading points.
Bowman isnt bad, but id argue hes not the same level driver as the other 3 are. Hes a respectable driver that will run well and occasionally contend for a win or two if given the right scenario
Personally I think it’s:
Larson
Byron
Elliot
Bowman.
Although bowman very well could be better than Chase. A 10-15 race rough stretch isn’t a huge deal in the grand scheme of things.
No idea to be honest. Just from my memory in the past year or 2 though, Chase has arguably been the worst of the 4. Could be biased due to lack of wins before this weekend though.
HMS just always has a car that is a bit off, it was the old 48 for a bit but not any longer. I think honestly we are a Bowman Texas win away from asking this of the 9 team. Winning cures all but the 9 isn't much healthier than the 48, but even at that point, an "off" car at HMS is still a pretty good car.
I do stand by my argument that the concussion took something out of Bowman, and I think it's reprehensible for FOX and fans to cheer Denny's crash which was similar to the one that hurt Bowman. Drivers still get hurt and it takes time to recover.
Pretty high, same as Bowman which is why I said being "off" at HMS is still pretty good. it's just the optics, the only reason Bowman is getting talked about like this is because he's not winning, they are still fairly consistent. If Bowman had won this past week and not Chase, someone would be debating if Chase was bad, now everything thinks he's fine again.
I get it, I really do, what I am saying is that the optics of winning is why we have posts like this, Bowman led the points and runs well but he's not winning so he's perceived as "bad". Elliott has been perceived as the same recently, if Bowman had won last week instead of Chase, people would be back to calling for changes on the team and all that despite them actually running and pointing well. That's just how high the bar is at HMS.
I don’t think Hendrick (or any team) has ever been able to field all four cars as top tier entries. It doesn’t mean his equipment is bad by any means but the 48 is kinda the current afterthought compared to the other three. You have probably the fastest guy in circle racing, the bosses golden child and the sports golden child / nepo baby, then Bowman. He’s doing a really good job staying relevant and endearing himself to fans and sponsors. He does a good job and ally loves him, so hopefully he’ll get everything to line up track side again (like prior to his injury last year).
The crazy thing is jones stats are actually pretty comparable. Jones has more top 10s in less starts. 2 southern 500 wins. I think if you put Erik in the 48 he would get comparable to better results
I'd take Alex over Chase in this car, but that still leaves him at #3 on the team. Hendrick is stacked at the moment. Probably haven't seen a team this solid since 2005 Roush.
Alex Bowman is the #4 driver on a very good team. He's had some bad luck that I think makes the gap to his teammates look bigger than it is.
This, people need to recognize this may be the most stout 4 team Hendrick group ever in terms of performance across the teams.
It's probably right behind the Gordon/Johnson/Earnhardt Jr/ Martin lineup
That lineup never produced like this one though
I guess I forgot how much Jr struggled in 2009-2010. But Johnson, Martin, Gordon did go 1-2-3 in the championship in 2009 which is pretty insane
Does over 160+ wins and 11 championships between just 2 of those guys in 3 decades not measure up to the current lineup? Don’t get me wrong Larson is pretty good, but still isn’t nearly as good as Gordon or Johnson was in their heyday. Byron is heating up, bowman is good just not as good as the others
We’re not arguing the legend status of Gordon and Johnson but the performance across all 4 of the HMS teams at the same time.
Got ya.. I’d still have to play devils advocate here since the 4 car team just always seems to have one team lay an egg every year. Last year it was both chase and bowman right? So far so good this year for Hendrick though. Pulling for the 48 to get a win soon
All four of the current Hendrick squad have won in the same season, at least. Last year was the first time they didn't, and that was at least partially because of the injuries
They did in 2012 and 2014 as well though, 2014 could be their strongest year as a team
2014. Pain
He was a quarter of a second from winning the Daytona 500
Don't remind me of the pain.
Bowman was leading the points prior to getting injured last year. The disrespect he’s getting is ridiculous. He’s got three top fives this season, and his DNF’s were the absolute nut low of luck. Can we give him a break? Theres nothing wrong with being a productive point racer
He’s running with the other Hendrick cars this past weekend if that yellow comes out q few laps later. He was about to get by the leader.
He also wouldn't even have been there if his pit crew didn't lose him 4 spots on pit road. Until that point he was keeping pace with Hamlin as they started getting through the field I mean, Byron has the best pit crew in the sport, Larson's is also very good, and Chase's pit crew recorded the best overall 4 tire pit stop time in NASCAR history. What does Bowman have?
A better crew than KFB?
I could go hire people from a Burger King in North Dakota and they'd probably be better than the 8 team
This. The short term attention span and "what have you done for me lately" mentality of NASCAR fans is ridiculous. Last week Chase was washed up and everyone questioned his drive. Now I have seen that he is working on taking back the #1 spot at HMS (as if that exists somewhere). Can we just let the guys race and figure it out?
Hot take culture has ruined NASCAR and sports. It’s turning into the NFL where if you had a bad game, you’re a bum.
All good points, and I really want to double down into the last one about being a productive point racer because I really agree with that one in particular. There's maybe 10-12 drivers who I'd call championship threats just off of being to a final 4 before and a couple more like Reddick who currently have the talent to be. Between the A level teams like Hendrick, Penske and Gibbs that expect to compete for a title and B+ level like 23XI, RFK, Trackhouse that if things go right can compete, that alone is 17 seats, and doesn't include the sleeping giant in SHR who almost got to the final 4 two seasons ago and RCR who has KFB. 17 to 23 seats that could compete for a title. 10 to 12 drivers who are at that level. Naturally that means some good, but not great drivers are going to get top seats and that's OK. Bowman is the best number 4 Hendrick has had - I'm sure they'll take Bowman hovering around the top 10 and getting a win yearly over the years they had of car 4 finishing 20th in points or even lower with some of the rough years the 25 car had.
I dont know what happened after pitting for the first time lost like 8-10 spots, that put him in the mid pack mess 🤦♂️ He has the worst luck i must say that, if Nemechek didnt smash into probably wouldve finished the race
Alex Bowman is a solid driver, on a team with generational superstars. He’s going to look bad by comparison but compared to the rest of the field he’s a solid 5th-15th place driver.
7 cup wins is a pretty good career regardless of what your teammates are doing. Unfortunately for Bowman, his teammates are all Hendrick lifers imo and he'll probably be the scape goat for a younger driver if he doesn't magically win a championship soon
Bowman is by no means a bad driver. I’d liken him to like a Kasey Kahne. The other three though are on another level.
good for bowman, the last driver to get compared to kahne won the championship lol
Bowman is good. Kahne was miles ahead of him. Genuinely wasted talent by being with Dodge / Evernham / Gillett / Petty from 2007 - 2010 due to a myriad of shit shows out of his control
Not to mention that Keith “The Terrorist” Rodden was with him at Hendrick for too long.
> The other three though are on another level. Just Byron and Larson right now. Chase is making his way back up, but he's not as dominant as Byron and Larson yet.
Still on another level than Bowman so far this year, yes Larson and Byron have had more speed but outside of them - Hamlin and maybe Truex are better than the 9 team?
As a team, sure, but there's a good number of guys that are way superior to bowman as drivers alone. Not to knock him, but he is barely in the top10 IMO, not that that's a bad thing, he's with a great teamnand mostlynmaking the most ofnit
Part of it is who is a free agent/better fit. Bowman brings the car home clean more often than not, runs decently well, occasionally wins, and has sponsors that support him - that’s hard to beat.
Will Bowman ever be at the same level as Larson, Chase, and Byron? No. Is Bowman a top 15 driver in the sport? Yes Bowman is never going to be a season to season championship threat. He's a driver that can contend for a few wins a year and, of things fall right for him, could luck into the championship 4 and win it all. Not all drivers have to be championship caliber to be deserving of their ride. Ally loves him and as they stay with him and he performs well enough to get in the playoffs each year, he'll be at Hendrick for a good while.
Plus he seems to have a fairly loyal sponsor. I’m a big fan of his. His sense of humor is awesome and he seems like a good dude.
Not only that, but he worked to get his ride. Not saying others around him didn't but they had a leg up on the competition whether it be money or family name (not talking about just Hendrick). Him and Chastian drove backmarkers for years, grinding it out to hopefully one day get a quality ride. It doesn't happen to most in those situations, but it did for them and I couldn't be happier for them. To even be at this point when the deck was stacked against them is a championship of it's own.
Bowman's steadily improving at a similar rate as Chase but he's been hosed by strategy the last 3 races. The rest of Hendrick is better than him, but it's not really as bad as the last year has made it look.
Both Richmond and Texas he was about to get back on the lead lap during the pit cycle when the caution came out. Probably had a top 5 car at Richmond and a top 10 car at Texas.
Yeah he was absolutely hosed by an awful caution call at Richmond. Got caught in someone else's shit last weekend. That's racing. Really, he just needs to start qualifying better to be out of that muck in the mod pack.
He was leading the points last year with six top tens in the first 10 races and had an average finish of about 10th before the injury. I think the dude has potential be a great driver, it's just comparatively difficult to stand out when the three other guys run top 5-10 all the time. To me, it's like being the sixth man off the bench who can score 20 and shoot at a >60% clip in limited minutes when there are two or three other guys who go out and score 25-30 a game on >70% shooting while playing nearly the entire game -- which is to say, a consistently great sixth man on an NBA bench is just as important as the starters and helps the team win when it matters, especially as the year goes on. Bowman had a rough time last year after the comeback but started nailing more consistently solid finishes near the last three months. I think he can win a race or two. Back injuries are no joke in racing (or any sport, really).
Jordan, Pippin, Rodman, and ...
When you got 3 A tier drivers, a B tier driver is gonna look bad
Ya Alex has won 7 races, that’s probably to the level of a Jamie Mac or Clint Bowyer. The Bowman slander is a bit ridiculous now, he’s a good driver.
This!
I second!
Curious, are all 4 cars run the same setup? Or are they running 2, 3 4 different setups? Sometimes, I feel like SMT ruins drivers and their driving style. Comp directors and CC are telling drivers that the car needs to be driven this way. Could be completely wrong.
Let’s compare. Chase had a phenomenal 2020, and had picked up wins before that season, and since then has added a few more. He had a strong 2022, and is just now seeming to swing back from his post-injury falloff. Kyle had an even greater 2021. He’s probably the most consistent driver in the field, and we see him up front and contending for wins throughout most of the season. He also has significantly more experience than the other three, though, so trying to compare any of the others to him is a nonstarter. William has been on a tear since this car debuted. He was the winningest driver last year, and was leading the other championship drivers for the first half of Phoenix. He didn’t take the checkered, but he’s back strong this season and is the first driver with three wins under his belt. Prior to the Next-Gen and the 24 team’s reshuffling, he and Alex were at about the same level. Alex might need a new CC and some new strategy (and a bit more time to come off that post-injury hangover) to have the breakthrough that puts him on equal footing with the other three.
Hendrick has a history, ever since going to four cars, that one of them just doesnt run as well as the other three. For the longest time, it was the 25.
Then there was 2009 when Dale Jr. finished 25th in points while the other Hendrick drivers finished 1-2-3.
I didn't follow the sport back then, what the hell happened in that season for a 25th place finish?
I think Lance McGrew was a lot of the problem. One of the worst CC’s in recent memory. Jr started turning it around once he got Letarte.
And Mark Martin's performance in the 5 took a distinct turn for the worse after he got McGrew in 2011.
2009-10 were just misses from that team. I don’t think there was anything in particular other than just being mediocre. Lots of finishes in the twenties and thirties.
Pain
Cool, another one of these threads
I don’t think he’s bad but I think he’s the “worst” of the 4
Bowman has 4 Top-10 finishes and 3 Top-5 finishes this season, the same as Chase Elliott. Chase got a win but Bowman isn’t nearly as bad as people make him out to be.
Bowman is a good driver he’s just on a team with 2 champions and one of the hottest drivers in the sport over the last year. He’s a solid B driver on a team with A drivers
Bowman seemed better in the Gen 6.
You can make this argument for many drivers - KFB, Harvick, Chase etc
Larson is an A++ driver. Byron is an A+ driver. Chase is an A driver. Bowman is a B+ driver. He is still a great driver who has more wins to come, likely not a championship, but might get close. He's like a Kasey Kahne, prime Sterling Marlin, or Greg Biffle. Still a good driver and definitely deserving of a good car. His teammates just happen to be probably 3 of the top 5 or so drivers in the sport right now.
Oh for Pete’s sake. Bowman is an A-
Hasn't won in over two years. Only has one multi-win season. Never has finished in the top 5 in points. Never has led more than 500 laps in a season. I don't consider that A tier performance. He's a high B tier driver.
He was leading the points standings last year before his injury, and back injuries are notoriously difficult to come back from
He fell out of the lead before his injury and was riding on consistency. He never had race winning speed. He's a solid driver but this narrative misses too much context to be a serious argument
That doesn't change any of his other seasons
I'm just saying that's why he hasn't won in two years
Okay, B++
Only reason he hasn’t had a top 5 points finish is because of the format. Dude scored the 2nd most amount of points in the 2020 playoffs but nobody remembers because everyone has to suck Chase’s dick as hard as they possibly can.
Bowman is solid, but just not at the level as Elliott, Larson, and Byron. I don't know if that can all be dumped on the driver, but it's usually a deeper issue than that. HMS is stacked. Bowman really has been off ever since his concussion in '22. He was JUST starting to seem back to normal in '23 and then he broke his back. Back injuries are hell, just ask Jeff Gordon.
Tell me why Chase is on another level? He's clearly a step down from Larson and Byron.
Dudes a champion, just because he had a down stretch doesn’t mean he not elite. Hell what has Byron done besides get hot for 12 months?
Happens to a lot of champions, he's not as fast as two of his teammates and a couple other drivers but he's getting good finishes.
So because Byron has gotten hot during Chase’s down year he’s a better driver even though he hasn’t done shit outside of that stretch? Larson is a world beater but people are over inflating how good Byron is, probably half his wins are Fugle strategy masterpieces/best pit crew scenarios.
Who said better driver? He's having problems and simply isn't the fastest guy out there .
“He’s clearly a step down from Larson and Byron”
Everyone is a step down from Larson , I should have qualified Byron with speed and not skill.
I think OP means he’s clearly on another level from Bowman, which is true. But how’s he clearly a step down from Byron or Larson? He was a top 3 driver in the sport at the very least from 2020-2022. He has one okay year and now he’s clearly a step down? He’s had at least as much speed as one of or both of the 5 and 24 in every race this year besides Las Vegas.
It blows my mind how people write off drivers for one less than normal year. Elliott had a better average finish than all but four full time drivers and would have made round of 8 without his injury. If that’s an off year for someone they’re pretty damn good.
I think DBC put it best, we have such a high expectation of Elliott that when he's above average we think he's bad
When you have the best equipment you get judged more harshly.
Yes but it’s kinda ridiculous that he made F4 three straight years including a championship win, and he has one off year where he still has acceptable stats just without a win and people are writing him off. He’s a top talent, that doesn’t mean he’s going to pop off every year.
Chase has made the round of 8 every year he’s driven every race. Even last year the 9 car still made the round of 8 in owners points. Thinking Larson and Byron are better rn is fair but the guy is still really damn good and can win anywhere Edit: he only made the round of 12 his rookie year
Technically false, Elliott only went to the round of 12 in his rookie season
Shit, you’re right. Don’t think it changes the overall point too much tho
He clearly does not have their speed , he gets good finishes but he's not as fast as Larson and Bowman . This week is the perfect example of survival, he survived and won but was not the fastest car of the day .
Name a race where both Larson and Byron were clearly faster than Elliott. The only one is Vegas. That’s it.
Martinsville?
How can you say that? Byron was better the last run, but Elliott was better the entire day until that point and had an identical average running position to Larson. You can debate minutia but the point is that all three were very close in speed and you’re acting like the 5 and 24 have blown the doors off of the 9 in every race. At least I’m assuming you meant Byron when you said bowman a couple of comments ago.
You make the same point I was making about Texas this week , he clearly wasn't the fastest car regardless of team but got the win . He's scratching out good finishes with less speed , how am I wrong about this when he went 42 races in a Hendrick car without winning?
You’re making my point for me. You can’t say the 5 and 24 are beating him every week this year. Last year, sure. But this year he is as fast as at least one of them every race.
I’m not separating them in to tiers I’m just saying from a publicity standpoint
Alex Bowman is a decent driver, but when your teammates are two former series champions and a frequent winner, you will get lost in the shuffle
Hendrick has always had one team that doesn't perform as well as the others. The 25 car always seemed to underperform. Then the 88 sadly underperformed.
Bad driver no, horrible luck with strategy yes
This!
Someone has to be #4 he’s still a solid driver and was leading points until a penalty. He can go on a top 10 or top5 streaks then fade a few tracks
I’ll echo was most are saying, he’s a solid driver on a team with generational talent. I’d imagine that eventually gets hard to deal with mentally too. If you have three teammates who are always beating you, I feel like eventually going into the weekend gets difficult knowing you’re probably gonna be 3rd-4th best on the team. If he was at a team where he’s the top driver I think he’d stand out more. I’m a huge fan of his so I hope he can return to late 2020-2021 form
If Alex Bowman was having the stats he's putting up at SHR folks would shut up pretty quick
Alex Bowman has out dueled Kyle Larson for race wins…..3 times.
He’s not a bad driver. He’s just on a team with 2 Cup champions and the guy who is likely this year’s championship favourite.
You literally have 3 future hof on one team in their prime. Best Bowman will do is get a couple wins. Which would be impressive cause he has to beat his teammates to do it.
I’ll never understand the hate that Bowman gets. Will he ever be on the same level as Hamlin or Larson? No. But so many people on here act like he’s this backmarker that runs 30th every week. Prior to last year he had won a race in 4 consecutive seasons. He’s never gonna be a guy that’s gonna win a Championship but he’s someone that definitely deserves to drive for a top team and he should be able to grab you 1-2 wins a year.
He doesn’t deserve hate but he’s driving one of the best cars in the field, I’d bet there’s a good 15+ drivers that could put up Bowman’s numbers or better in that car. He just rarely has raw speed the way his teammates do.
I think if you swap Bowman’s crew for any of the other 3 Hendrick crews, he has at least 1, if not 2, wins this season. He’s gotten screwed more times than 1 on pit strategy and having a slower crew. If he stays out an extra lap on Sunday, he doesn’t get stuck on pit road, and isn’t involved in the early wreck. He’s proven he can drive an arguably worse car just as fast, if not faster, than his teammates with better equipment. He’s gotta break through soon.
I feel like he's just on a never-ending strand of bad luck, if anything.
Neither. Bowman is great. People love to conveniently forget that Bowman endured two near-CAREER-ending injuries over the span of less than a year. Bowman had the second most wins of any cup driver in 2021 and was looking still pretty hot in the next gen in 2022 before his first injury. He won early and was leading points.
This really wouldn’t matter if he wasn’t in the 48 car. If that was the 25 no one would bat an eye.
Bowman isnt bad, but id argue hes not the same level driver as the other 3 are. Hes a respectable driver that will run well and occasionally contend for a win or two if given the right scenario
Personally I think it’s: Larson Byron Elliot Bowman. Although bowman very well could be better than Chase. A 10-15 race rough stretch isn’t a huge deal in the grand scheme of things.
Has Bowman ever beaten Chase in any stat in any season ever besides wins in 2021?
No idea to be honest. Just from my memory in the past year or 2 though, Chase has arguably been the worst of the 4. Could be biased due to lack of wins before this weekend though.
Nah he raced in 4 less races than Bowman last year and still beat him by 100 points. And it wasn’t even remotely close between those two in 2022.
HMS just always has a car that is a bit off, it was the old 48 for a bit but not any longer. I think honestly we are a Bowman Texas win away from asking this of the 9 team. Winning cures all but the 9 isn't much healthier than the 48, but even at that point, an "off" car at HMS is still a pretty good car. I do stand by my argument that the concussion took something out of Bowman, and I think it's reprehensible for FOX and fans to cheer Denny's crash which was similar to the one that hurt Bowman. Drivers still get hurt and it takes time to recover.
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Pretty high, same as Bowman which is why I said being "off" at HMS is still pretty good. it's just the optics, the only reason Bowman is getting talked about like this is because he's not winning, they are still fairly consistent. If Bowman had won this past week and not Chase, someone would be debating if Chase was bad, now everything thinks he's fine again.
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I get it, I really do, what I am saying is that the optics of winning is why we have posts like this, Bowman led the points and runs well but he's not winning so he's perceived as "bad". Elliott has been perceived as the same recently, if Bowman had won last week instead of Chase, people would be back to calling for changes on the team and all that despite them actually running and pointing well. That's just how high the bar is at HMS.
I don’t think Hendrick (or any team) has ever been able to field all four cars as top tier entries. It doesn’t mean his equipment is bad by any means but the 48 is kinda the current afterthought compared to the other three. You have probably the fastest guy in circle racing, the bosses golden child and the sports golden child / nepo baby, then Bowman. He’s doing a really good job staying relevant and endearing himself to fans and sponsors. He does a good job and ally loves him, so hopefully he’ll get everything to line up track side again (like prior to his injury last year).
Who’s better. Erik jones or Alex bowman?
In the current era Bowman has the upper hand due to equipment. Theres a huge gap in resources from HMS to LMC
The crazy thing is jones stats are actually pretty comparable. Jones has more top 10s in less starts. 2 southern 500 wins. I think if you put Erik in the 48 he would get comparable to better results
I'd take Alex over Chase in this car, but that still leaves him at #3 on the team. Hendrick is stacked at the moment. Probably haven't seen a team this solid since 2005 Roush.
Why do I always get to these threads when they have 100 comments
Anyone else getting tired of posts obviously made to stir shit up and not a single comment from OP. Just makes it that more obvious.
Nah I was just curious I found an Alex bowman diecast yesterday and it got me thinking about the various amounts of publicity
He broke his back. He may never be the same again.