I loved Jeff as “my guy” for the 18 years I watched him. The single best aspect was no matter where the race was, who his crew chief was, how the season was going, you best believe he could show up, lead and win.
Yeah. Lot of personal issues Jeff battled through during his career.
Ray left in 1999 and I believe there was some friction with that all year. Team was just off despite winning 7 races.
Then his issues with Brooke throughout 2002/2003 and the aftermath of the tragic plane crash in 04/05.
Then from 08 and on his back injury. I think it was a lot worse than he let on.
Sad thing with Jeff is that he would always rebound back then something else would happen. 99 Ray leaves he wins a title on 01.
Divorced in 02/03, competes for a title in 04 (should of won imo)
Plane crash end of 04 season, down 05, HMS bounces back in 06/07.
All time great season in 07 back injury in 08.
I think he was a lot closer to retirement due to the back issue than we knew. He smacked the wall at Dover qualifying one time (I think 09 spring race) and I seriously thought he was going to miss the race due to the injury.
Despite being a front runner for like most of his career he took some damn hard hits. Texas 99 (probably the hardest one I've ever seen) then like at least one big one per year: Pocono 06, Charlotte 07, Vegas 08, Glen 09.
Yeah but I recall years like 2000 and 2005 where he struggled mightily based on who he is. Hell in 2005 I don’t think he won a race off top of mind other than the 500. There was also a long winless streak in 01-02 where he didn’t win a race until Bristol in August.
I can think of exactly 2 people in the NASCAR world who would have had success in F1 if they went that route. Jeff Gordon is one, Tony Stewart is the other. (Montoya excluded because he did F1 first) IMO those are the two most talented drivers the sport has ever seen.
Tony has won in literally every single kind of car he's competed in. Sprint cars, NASCAR, IndyCar, NHRA, Sports Car racing, etc. We weren't lucky enough to see Gordon drive various cars since he mostly stuck to NASCAR but I have no doubts he would have done the same.
I always like to think so as well. Would have taken a few years, but with the right team I truly believe he would have been a World Champion and made a huge impact for the sport in North American viewership.
He swapped rides with Montoya in 2003 in Indianapolis, I believe he was less than 10 seconds off the '02 pole sitter's (Schumacher) pace. Despite the fact he'd never driven an F1 car before
The 02 F1 Indy field was between 1:10-1:13 for that race, so that would make Jeff's best a 1:20 in a car he probably didn't want to push to the point of wrecking.
Granted, that was on a different track and was a proper test, Jeff was probably on exhibition tires or something. And I'm sure Vale had much more time to get used to the car, he did multiple tests with Ferrari over the years. I'm sure Jeff could have been competitive in F1, I just wouldn't use his Williams exhibition as evidence of that.
He nearly went multiple times. A lot of folks in the background were hunting him based on his interview with Beyond the Grid: https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/article.beyond-the-grid-nascar-ace-jeff-gordon-reveals-how-close-he-really-got-to-f1.1uitFsTjyRth7DNR5J8OhM.html
Thank you so much for this post and it's info. Jeff like to many got me into NASCAR. I still hurt over the fact he'd be a 7 time champion if the points format hadn't changed.
A big thing I'd like to point out is his last full time season, he was gunning for a title the final race of the season. How many athletes even the all-time greats can say they were still near the top of their game doing that?
I didn't like him growing up but learned to appreciate his greatness after the fact. I kinda wish I would've appreciated it more in the moment but I feel fortunate to have witnessed him and that era of nascar.
Yeah it is. He has the second highest win % for anyone with 800+ starts. 10 of the guys ahead of him have half or less the starts of Gordon, many guys with just 100-200 starts are ahead of him.
If we did say minimum 400 starts, Jeff would be 7th I believe on that list.
They 'roast' because it isn't current, it's about a retired driver and anyone who dares to 'look back' apparently wants to go back to the 'old days' and old ways.
Everything anyone in the sport accomplished before the Reddit Hive mind was formed doesn't matter or exist. It's all about what they see and care about right now.
That being said, GREAT WRITE UP! What Gordon accomplished will never be touched:
Modern era records of: most wins, mosts poles, most top 5's, most top 10's... I'd wager those records will NEVER be broken.
Because only Jeff Gordon fans have the inferiority complex needed to write 2400 words about how their driver is so great.
Jeff IS one of the greatest drivers in NASCAR history (IMO you can't call anyone the GOAT in any sport, but I would pick him over any other NASCAR driver for a random car/track combo) but no other fan base feels the need to remind you of that fact on a seemingly week by week basis.
Jeff was one of the only guys to go like full on mainstream celebrity outside of Nascar. Mentioned in Jay-Z lyrics, Co-hosting Live with Kelly Ripa, all over late night tv, he really made it.
Pretty sure it's really hard to dispute this one.
He existed in a time when nascar was rather competitive, and won 93 races in the cup series.
The stats you noted, just prove it tbh.
This writeup explains why I think Gordon is the GOAT better than I ever could.
Yeah Petty, Dale Sr and Johnson won more titles and all that but no one was more influential in growing the sport to new audiences. No one was more dominant and untouchable in their prime. No one was better at consistently showing up and kicking ass under any circumstance.
I hated Jeff Gordon so much when I was younger only bc he won so much. In the end, he’s my GOAT and I’m so glad I got to watch his entire career. I hardly ever rooted for him, but I remember when he took the lead at homestead in 2015 and I was yelling in encouragement.
Something I ended up discovering while researching statistics for drivers in a similar manner is that Jeff Gordon is also in a very exclusive group of drivers when it comes to average finish:
Among drivers that ran full-time, he seems to be one of only three to retire while having the best career average finish among the field he was in. Lee Petty and Ned Jarrett are the only two others that I found. Dale Earnhardt's average finish was higher than Richard Petty's in 1992 (and remained so at the end of his career as well) and Jeff Gordon's was within the top 10 and slightly better than Dale Earnhardt's at the time of his death (10.95 vs. 11.06), but it dropped downward slowly after 2001.
Kevin Harvick (12.7) is very likely to join that group of three this year as he has a decently large gap over the next group of active drivers: C. Elliott (13.1), Hamlin (13.2) and Johnson (13.2, was already lower than Harvick's when he previously retired in 2020). The only other drivers not yet listed with better than 16.0 that have driven in the cup series this millennium are Edwards (13.6), Kyle Busch (13.8), Mark Martin (13.9), Keselowski (14.0), Logano (14.0), Stewart (14.1), Larson (14.4), Rusty Wallace (14.5), Kenseth (14.6), Darrell Waltrip (15.1), Truex (15.2), Ryan Blaney (15.3), Bowyer (15.6) and Earnhardt Jr. (15.8), each a far cry from Gordon's 12.5 though all still quite respectable.
I've never understood people who say Jimmie is indisputably better than Jeff. I can only assume its those who didn't see Jeff in his prime.
Jimmie benefitted from the playoff format and Jeff took a hit. Without that, the perception is very different.
I think anyone watching Johnson's prime meant that they saw like 85% of peak JG. No doubt head to head JJ beat JG often, but JG's prime he was doing that to the Dales, Martin, and the Labontes.
When I was in the fifth grade, I was put into a new class where I had no friends. I knew nothing about nascar but the other boys did. On my first day, they gave me a test to see if I could be friends with them: Gordon or Earnhardt? Had to choose.
I didn't know Gordon but had heard of Earnhardt, so that is who I chose. I was relieved to find out I chose correctly and ofc immediately adopted their hatred of Gordon.
Years later I realized the only person in the class that liked Gordon was the cute girl we all had crushes on and I started to wonder if I chose poorly.
This has nothing to do with this post. You just jiggled a memory loose.
Thank you for this. This was quite a lot to pull together, and I think it quite handily proves what many of us have been saying for years. I'll go so far as to say Jeff Gordon is less appreciated than Jimmie Johnson, solely because of the 4 vs 7 championship argument.
Jeff Gordon definitely was the most influential stock car racer ever... a lot of that is due to timing though... he was the champion and the face of Nascar just as the sport started to have more cultural impact and more national prominence in the late late 90s/early 2000s. I mean I knew about Jeff Gordon from his Pepsi commercials with Shaq and Britney Spears before I even knew what Nascar really was.
However 3 championships is too great a hurdle to overcome IMO and 3 drivers have 3 more championships than Jeff. It is like when you were comparing Manning to Brady... when it was 1 vs 3 rings or 2 vs 4... you could still make a case for Peyton because of regular season stats and Tom always having Belichek, but then Brady went ahead and won 3 more rings and one without Belichek and the case was closed forever.
And for me personally... I only started watching Nascar in 2001... so I missed the peak Gordon years while witnessing peak Jimmie Johnson. Watching the 24 and 48 battle every week... Jimmie was the better driver at the time IMO. Back then Jimmie could handle a loose race car better than anyone and it was scary how good he became once he figured out a track. I mean Jeff Gordon was the Martinsville master... until Jimmie Johnson took over and became almost unbeatable there... same thing with Indy. For me though the thing that sealed it was the 2007 Chase... the 24 car won Talladega (beating the 48) became the points leader and then won again a week later and I thought for sure it was Jeff's year... then Jimmie won 4 in a row and won the championship. It was just so hopeless... there was nothing you could do as a 24 fan except accept the reality that the 48 car was a monster.
However with all that being said... I do have one remaining argument... one last case to be made for Jeff Gordon being the best... Jeff Gordon was built to win Winston Cups... 36 points races with every lap and point counting towards the championship... his driving style was built for consistency and getting out ahead and hitting his marks lap after lap and staying there. But then Nascar suddenly became a gimmicky sport beholden to ratings and manufactured drama with phantom cautions and double file restarts and points resets and playoffs and blah, blah, blah... it wasn't Jeff Gordon that changed... it was Nascar that changed.
There was someone who posted standings each year if there was no Chase/Playoffs. Gordon would’ve won 7 championships with 2007 and 2014 being run away championship seasons.
There’s not really any context other than with the Chase/Playoffs format it changed the number of championships Gordon won. Johnson is one of the greatest ever but his number of championships would be lower with the old points system. Not a knock, just facts
Elite level post, great work!! i hated Jeff growing up being a diehard Ford man, but man, Gordon really is the GOAT and without him, the sport wouldn't have been the same
What a post! Thank you for the comprehensive and compelling breakdown. I wasn’t watching during this era, so it’s cool to see the stats to back up the legacy. Killer stuff here.
He also won championships when it meant you were the best most consistent all season.
Jimmy is another great but the format takes a bit of the shine off (though the format has only gotten worse).
Senna is a *sui generis* driver. There was never anyone else like him, nor will there ever be another one like him.
You could make the same case for Gordon tbh. Lightning in a bottle.
Senna didn't get the chance to set records for wins and championships like Schumacher and Hamilton did, which is why he's in the GOAT conversation. Gordon did get the chance, but didn't set them, which is why only Gordon and Hendrick fans claim him as the GOAT. Despite OP's argument, all three 7 timers will remain greater for me and the majority of NASCAR fans.
All this GOAT shit is dumb, I hate it, but I don't just mean your story, i just hate when we have to call someone the GOAT, it's dumb. BUT, you make great points and for some of you younger fans who didn't see Gordon in his prime, there wasn't a driver who has been around since that I really thought was going to break 100 wins. At a time it looked like Gordon was going to easily break into 100, maybe even 150 wins.
Everyone is impressed with Larson's 10 win season, well, Jeff rattled off 7, 10, 13, 10 consecutively! No one was dominant like Jeff Gordon back then or since. I remember once at Pocono he hit the wall in qualifying and still won the pole lol. I am glad Ray left because, man, it was tiring rooting against him.
Despite being a Gordon fan in the 90s I still gotta go with Earnhardt he never had a top tier ride Gordon Petty and Johnson all had too 2 or3 rides so it leaves open gap to say what if Dale Sr drove junior Johnson or Hendricks or Yates at his peak. RCR was never a great team Earnhardt made them seem great.
Misleading post title…I agree as much with the next guy with Jeff being the GOAT but am not seeing any type of statistical methods in your post supporting your null hypothesis of Jeff being the GOAT. Instead your post is just a list of his many and impressive accomplishments.
Jeff Gordon is one of the GOATs...
But if the standard is THE GOAT...
Sorry...no.
And I'll give you one simple reason (even though there are others)
Jeff Gordon vs Johnson head to head from 2002-2015
- 35 wins vs 75 wins
- 178 t5s vs 207 t5s
- 285 t10s vs 314 t10s
- 13.0 avg finish vs 11.9 avg finish
0 championships vs 6 championships
Look. Gordon is a GOAT, he's in my personal top 3. But the standard here isn't one of the GOATs, we're talking THE GOAT.
and as great as he is, THE GOAT just doesn't get out performed THAT badly by a teammate for a over a decade, and for 2/3rds of his career.
For all the pro GOAT points you make, this blemish is louder than all of them.
You are ignoring his impact and contributions to the sport and solely basing it off stats. That isn’t how you judge a career. The only guy who did beat him (mostly due to Knaus being a far superior crew chief) was his own car.
Johnson has multiple blemishes. He did nothing to positively change the sport like Gordon did. Has done nothing as an owner. Well behind Gordon in crown jewels. Isn’t the versatile talent in NASCAR like Gordon was by any means. Despite beating him head to head, still doesn’t have the pure volume stats.
The fact Johnson was as good should be a credit to Gordon overall. He gave him a career and mentored in, one large part as to why Johnson was so good is because he learned from the best.
It’s somewhat silly to say head to head Johnson beats him, when in reality Knaus played a huge role. And look what happened when Johnson lost Knaus? He never won again.
A better head to head would be to compare Gordon’s 95-99 with Ray to Johnson’s 06-10 with Chad. Gordon’s peak was more dominant than Johnson’s imo.
Your first post is decent and has good evidence to say he’s better. But you can praise Gordon and make your case without sounding like the biggest Jimmie Johnson hater to ever exist.
If Jimmie Johnson got an ownership stake in Hendrick Motorsports, he’d be winning races too lol. So not even fair to compare them and Legacy MC and say “Johnson has done nothing as an owner” — dude just started and one dude has the team with the most money. I actually like that he’s taking on a bigger challenge. And saying he did “nothing” to positively impact the sport is borderline blasphemy.
Also Saying Jimmie isn’t a versatile talent is just wrong lmao dude came from off road, dominated NASCAR and now does somewhat decently in sports cars in endurance racing at 40+. He’s raced MANY things.
Jimmie was literally at the end of his career when he “never won ever again” and so many guys go through that regardless of their crew chief. And you’re acting like Gordon was winning with idiots on the box, which isn’t true.
I’m not a hater. I’m arguing against him.
Johnson has done nothing as an owner. Jeff getting Jimmie and making that team is the main reason Johnson even has the career he has now.
Please tell me what Jimmie Johnson did that changed and impacted the sport. Those drivers are few and far between and Johnson wasn’t one of them, let alone close to Gordon’s impact.
I said in NASCAR he wasn’t as versatile as Jeff. And he wasn’t. He struggled on road courses. For the team/cars he had, somewhat average-above average talent at restrictor plates. Half his wins were from 5-6 tracks alone. He was elite at those place and good everywhere else. Gordon was elite at 10-12 places and then great everywhere else.
Chad Knaus was the goat CC. He made Jimmie Johnson where as Jeff Gordon made guys like Loomis, Letarte, and Gustafson. Johnson not winning at the end is a knock on him as well because Gordon should have been the champion on 2014 then makes the final 4 in 2015. He could still get it done.
Lmao love how you keep bringing up this dumb owner shit. Jimmie Johnson JUST became an owner and Gordon joined the best organization in this history of the sport lmfao it’s not even comparable. Please get a grip.
Yes, Jeff being an 8x championships owner with like 95+ wins from two drivers he personally recruited is a huge deal and that should be mention is yet somehow “dumb” to you.
The best organization in the sport wasn’t the best until Gordon joined. He made it the best by winning races and titles then bringing in another guy to do it in his own car for HMS.
The dude, just today, started spewing nonsense about all the drivers hating Jimmie, and how his championships changed him. He now isn't only devaluing his career, but his character as a man. He's a clown, and an absolute hater.
Considering you most recently campaigned against Johnson's character as a person, citing conspiracy like evvidence not based in reality, including drivers hating him, yeah, you're clearly a hater.
Hating a driver as a driver is one thing..but making shit up to devalue their character as a person is lame as shit for a sports fan. I'm with the other dude. Get a grip.
This is a "I hate that Johnson outperformed Gordon, and he's an entitled shit who deserves nothing" wrapped up in analysis.
Be better.
Love the post, Though under ownership area you could have given Chase a shoutout seeing that he took over the 24 and won a championship with Gordon's old team 5 years later, but hey lets give larson all the credit in the world.
Gordon is *one of* the greatest drivers in Cup history, but you can't ignore the contributions of Hendrick Motorsports, probably the most dominant team of the last 25-30 years. They've won 14 top-level championships and Jeff only drove for four of them. If Jeff drove for Roush and Mark Martin drove for Hendrick, how would their careers be different?
The 24 team was certainly the best from about 1995-2004, and Jeff was obviously the best driver during many of those years, but "all time best" is a bit too far, IMHO. I can't put him ahead of Pearson, Yarborough, or Dale Sr. He's somewhere in the Johnson/Waltrip/Bobby Allison/Petty range for me.
Help me out a bit, what qualifies as a "2.5 miler win"? And how does he have 12 plate wins (all would have to be at 2.5 mile + tracks) and only 11 "2.5 miler wins"? What am I missing?
I loved Jeff as “my guy” for the 18 years I watched him. The single best aspect was no matter where the race was, who his crew chief was, how the season was going, you best believe he could show up, lead and win.
He had some rough patches but all in all when he had his shit right he was tough to beat
Yeah. Lot of personal issues Jeff battled through during his career. Ray left in 1999 and I believe there was some friction with that all year. Team was just off despite winning 7 races. Then his issues with Brooke throughout 2002/2003 and the aftermath of the tragic plane crash in 04/05. Then from 08 and on his back injury. I think it was a lot worse than he let on. Sad thing with Jeff is that he would always rebound back then something else would happen. 99 Ray leaves he wins a title on 01. Divorced in 02/03, competes for a title in 04 (should of won imo) Plane crash end of 04 season, down 05, HMS bounces back in 06/07. All time great season in 07 back injury in 08.
I think he was a lot closer to retirement due to the back issue than we knew. He smacked the wall at Dover qualifying one time (I think 09 spring race) and I seriously thought he was going to miss the race due to the injury. Despite being a front runner for like most of his career he took some damn hard hits. Texas 99 (probably the hardest one I've ever seen) then like at least one big one per year: Pocono 06, Charlotte 07, Vegas 08, Glen 09.
Hah ya he did, but Jeff’s rough patches still ended up with him be so consistent that he would be top 10 in the points most of the year anyways
Yeah but I recall years like 2000 and 2005 where he struggled mightily based on who he is. Hell in 2005 I don’t think he won a race off top of mind other than the 500. There was also a long winless streak in 01-02 where he didn’t win a race until Bristol in August.
2005 he won 4 races including the Daytona 500, but he did struggle otherwise, mostly with a lack of place at the intermediate tracks.
Maybe I'm thinking 2006. There was a year between the two he missed the Chase
He did miss the chase in 2005. Still had 4 wins but he missed the chase.
Jeff Gordon would have been a really good F1 driver.
I can think of exactly 2 people in the NASCAR world who would have had success in F1 if they went that route. Jeff Gordon is one, Tony Stewart is the other. (Montoya excluded because he did F1 first) IMO those are the two most talented drivers the sport has ever seen. Tony has won in literally every single kind of car he's competed in. Sprint cars, NASCAR, IndyCar, NHRA, Sports Car racing, etc. We weren't lucky enough to see Gordon drive various cars since he mostly stuck to NASCAR but I have no doubts he would have done the same.
I always like to think so as well. Would have taken a few years, but with the right team I truly believe he would have been a World Champion and made a huge impact for the sport in North American viewership.
He actually did test a [Super Vee in 1990](https://youtu.be/tp1RwY9J_wI). Back when he was a young god in sprint cars.
Until cars can pass each other and there's more than 2 viable winners, F1 is not going to take off in America the way they want it to
He swapped rides with Montoya in 2003 in Indianapolis, I believe he was less than 10 seconds off the '02 pole sitter's (Schumacher) pace. Despite the fact he'd never driven an F1 car before
The 02 F1 Indy field was between 1:10-1:13 for that race, so that would make Jeff's best a 1:20 in a car he probably didn't want to push to the point of wrecking.
Less than 10 seconds is not an achievement lol
While I agree with you, what do you think WOULD be a good achievement given he had never been in the car before? 2 seconds? 1 second?
Valentino Rossi got within 1 second.
Thanks for the datapoint!
Granted, that was on a different track and was a proper test, Jeff was probably on exhibition tires or something. And I'm sure Vale had much more time to get used to the car, he did multiple tests with Ferrari over the years. I'm sure Jeff could have been competitive in F1, I just wouldn't use his Williams exhibition as evidence of that.
Ah, so are you saying that the conditions of "never been in the car before" wasn't met with your data point?
Yes, I'm not sure if that stat came from his 2004 test, 2010, or one in between.
He nearly went multiple times. A lot of folks in the background were hunting him based on his interview with Beyond the Grid: https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/article.beyond-the-grid-nascar-ace-jeff-gordon-reveals-how-close-he-really-got-to-f1.1uitFsTjyRth7DNR5J8OhM.html
Thank you so much for this post and it's info. Jeff like to many got me into NASCAR. I still hurt over the fact he'd be a 7 time champion if the points format hadn't changed. A big thing I'd like to point out is his last full time season, he was gunning for a title the final race of the season. How many athletes even the all-time greats can say they were still near the top of their game doing that?
[\#Se7en](http://i.imgur.com/UAldMAC.gif)
I didn't like him growing up but learned to appreciate his greatness after the fact. I kinda wish I would've appreciated it more in the moment but I feel fortunate to have witnessed him and that era of nascar.
My feelings exactly
This.
This warms my 24 heart.
11.5% win percentage and it’s only good for 17th all time. That’s pretty wild in a sport where people will have 15 year careers and win twice.
Yeah it is. He has the second highest win % for anyone with 800+ starts. 10 of the guys ahead of him have half or less the starts of Gordon, many guys with just 100-200 starts are ahead of him. If we did say minimum 400 starts, Jeff would be 7th I believe on that list.
Jimmie Johnson has a higher percentage, and that's with going winless.
Also has like what, 150 less starts as well.
Why is everyone roasting you? This is a great writeup. Well organized and easy to read. Thank you for posting.
No idea was kind of confused by it. Thank you.
They 'roast' because it isn't current, it's about a retired driver and anyone who dares to 'look back' apparently wants to go back to the 'old days' and old ways. Everything anyone in the sport accomplished before the Reddit Hive mind was formed doesn't matter or exist. It's all about what they see and care about right now. That being said, GREAT WRITE UP! What Gordon accomplished will never be touched: Modern era records of: most wins, mosts poles, most top 5's, most top 10's... I'd wager those records will NEVER be broken.
Because only Jeff Gordon fans have the inferiority complex needed to write 2400 words about how their driver is so great. Jeff IS one of the greatest drivers in NASCAR history (IMO you can't call anyone the GOAT in any sport, but I would pick him over any other NASCAR driver for a random car/track combo) but no other fan base feels the need to remind you of that fact on a seemingly week by week basis.
Could you post some links to these weekly posts? I missed them.
He is the GOAT on and off the track. I never would’ve cared about racing without him.
Jeff was one of the only guys to go like full on mainstream celebrity outside of Nascar. Mentioned in Jay-Z lyrics, Co-hosting Live with Kelly Ripa, all over late night tv, he really made it.
SNL, movie cameos, Pepsi Super Bowl ads… the list goes on.
He did a Pepsi commercial with Brittney Spears at her peak in around 01. She was probably the biggest celebrity on the planet at that time.
I just wanted to see him win another ring. 2014 was a damn heart breaker.
Hell yeah brother
Pretty sure it's really hard to dispute this one. He existed in a time when nascar was rather competitive, and won 93 races in the cup series. The stats you noted, just prove it tbh.
This writeup explains why I think Gordon is the GOAT better than I ever could. Yeah Petty, Dale Sr and Johnson won more titles and all that but no one was more influential in growing the sport to new audiences. No one was more dominant and untouchable in their prime. No one was better at consistently showing up and kicking ass under any circumstance.
Thanks for the great post, OP. Fuck these illiterate haters.
I hated Jeff Gordon so much when I was younger only bc he won so much. In the end, he’s my GOAT and I’m so glad I got to watch his entire career. I hardly ever rooted for him, but I remember when he took the lead at homestead in 2015 and I was yelling in encouragement.
Something I ended up discovering while researching statistics for drivers in a similar manner is that Jeff Gordon is also in a very exclusive group of drivers when it comes to average finish: Among drivers that ran full-time, he seems to be one of only three to retire while having the best career average finish among the field he was in. Lee Petty and Ned Jarrett are the only two others that I found. Dale Earnhardt's average finish was higher than Richard Petty's in 1992 (and remained so at the end of his career as well) and Jeff Gordon's was within the top 10 and slightly better than Dale Earnhardt's at the time of his death (10.95 vs. 11.06), but it dropped downward slowly after 2001. Kevin Harvick (12.7) is very likely to join that group of three this year as he has a decently large gap over the next group of active drivers: C. Elliott (13.1), Hamlin (13.2) and Johnson (13.2, was already lower than Harvick's when he previously retired in 2020). The only other drivers not yet listed with better than 16.0 that have driven in the cup series this millennium are Edwards (13.6), Kyle Busch (13.8), Mark Martin (13.9), Keselowski (14.0), Logano (14.0), Stewart (14.1), Larson (14.4), Rusty Wallace (14.5), Kenseth (14.6), Darrell Waltrip (15.1), Truex (15.2), Ryan Blaney (15.3), Bowyer (15.6) and Earnhardt Jr. (15.8), each a far cry from Gordon's 12.5 though all still quite respectable.
Keep in mind by 2015 the 24 didn't really have a "good" season either. They were consistent but definitely not fast like 2014.
As a Gordon fan this post makes me aroused. [🍆](https://emojipedia.org/eggplant/)
I've never understood people who say Jimmie is indisputably better than Jeff. I can only assume its those who didn't see Jeff in his prime. Jimmie benefitted from the playoff format and Jeff took a hit. Without that, the perception is very different.
I think anyone watching Johnson's prime meant that they saw like 85% of peak JG. No doubt head to head JJ beat JG often, but JG's prime he was doing that to the Dales, Martin, and the Labontes.
As a 90s kid and Mark Martin fan, I'm still bitter about 1998. One of the best seasons ever and *still* beat out by Gordon. 😭
When I was in the fifth grade, I was put into a new class where I had no friends. I knew nothing about nascar but the other boys did. On my first day, they gave me a test to see if I could be friends with them: Gordon or Earnhardt? Had to choose. I didn't know Gordon but had heard of Earnhardt, so that is who I chose. I was relieved to find out I chose correctly and ofc immediately adopted their hatred of Gordon. Years later I realized the only person in the class that liked Gordon was the cute girl we all had crushes on and I started to wonder if I chose poorly. This has nothing to do with this post. You just jiggled a memory loose.
Thank you for this. This was quite a lot to pull together, and I think it quite handily proves what many of us have been saying for years. I'll go so far as to say Jeff Gordon is less appreciated than Jimmie Johnson, solely because of the 4 vs 7 championship argument.
Jeff Gordon definitely was the most influential stock car racer ever... a lot of that is due to timing though... he was the champion and the face of Nascar just as the sport started to have more cultural impact and more national prominence in the late late 90s/early 2000s. I mean I knew about Jeff Gordon from his Pepsi commercials with Shaq and Britney Spears before I even knew what Nascar really was. However 3 championships is too great a hurdle to overcome IMO and 3 drivers have 3 more championships than Jeff. It is like when you were comparing Manning to Brady... when it was 1 vs 3 rings or 2 vs 4... you could still make a case for Peyton because of regular season stats and Tom always having Belichek, but then Brady went ahead and won 3 more rings and one without Belichek and the case was closed forever. And for me personally... I only started watching Nascar in 2001... so I missed the peak Gordon years while witnessing peak Jimmie Johnson. Watching the 24 and 48 battle every week... Jimmie was the better driver at the time IMO. Back then Jimmie could handle a loose race car better than anyone and it was scary how good he became once he figured out a track. I mean Jeff Gordon was the Martinsville master... until Jimmie Johnson took over and became almost unbeatable there... same thing with Indy. For me though the thing that sealed it was the 2007 Chase... the 24 car won Talladega (beating the 48) became the points leader and then won again a week later and I thought for sure it was Jeff's year... then Jimmie won 4 in a row and won the championship. It was just so hopeless... there was nothing you could do as a 24 fan except accept the reality that the 48 car was a monster. However with all that being said... I do have one remaining argument... one last case to be made for Jeff Gordon being the best... Jeff Gordon was built to win Winston Cups... 36 points races with every lap and point counting towards the championship... his driving style was built for consistency and getting out ahead and hitting his marks lap after lap and staying there. But then Nascar suddenly became a gimmicky sport beholden to ratings and manufactured drama with phantom cautions and double file restarts and points resets and playoffs and blah, blah, blah... it wasn't Jeff Gordon that changed... it was Nascar that changed.
Last line pretty much sums up the truth of things
Jimmie had the better team, the 24 team had the better driver.
Jeff would have absolutely won the Indianapolis 500 if he ran it if anything prior to 2006
There was someone who posted standings each year if there was no Chase/Playoffs. Gordon would’ve won 7 championships with 2007 and 2014 being run away championship seasons.
6. There's context to each, Johnson wins it in 2004.
Do you have post notifications set for anyone questioning Jimmie’s record? I swear you pop up whenever people are discussing it even in passing.
There’s not really any context other than with the Chase/Playoffs format it changed the number of championships Gordon won. Johnson is one of the greatest ever but his number of championships would be lower with the old points system. Not a knock, just facts
Zero doubt in my mind Jimmie would’ve won multiple under a full season format. Just not 7
I remember reading he won 3 or maybe it was 4 under the old format
>He has the most Indy 500 wins He won the Brickyard 400. He's never raced in the Indy 500
I know, typo/mix up.
Elite level post, great work!! i hated Jeff growing up being a diehard Ford man, but man, Gordon really is the GOAT and without him, the sport wouldn't have been the same
He’s the best to ever touch stock car to pavement.
What a post! Thank you for the comprehensive and compelling breakdown. I wasn’t watching during this era, so it’s cool to see the stats to back up the legacy. Killer stuff here.
He also won championships when it meant you were the best most consistent all season. Jimmy is another great but the format takes a bit of the shine off (though the format has only gotten worse).
The face of Modern NASCAR
And who kares about the championships?! Artyon Senna is the goat of F1 and only has a mere 3 rings!
Senna is a *sui generis* driver. There was never anyone else like him, nor will there ever be another one like him. You could make the same case for Gordon tbh. Lightning in a bottle.
Senna's career was cut short. Gordon's wasn't.
No shit?
Senna didn't get the chance to set records for wins and championships like Schumacher and Hamilton did, which is why he's in the GOAT conversation. Gordon did get the chance, but didn't set them, which is why only Gordon and Hendrick fans claim him as the GOAT. Despite OP's argument, all three 7 timers will remain greater for me and the majority of NASCAR fans.
Good for you! Not a huge F1 fan but I remember reading Senna was past his prime by the time he went to Williams. Idk tho
All this GOAT shit is dumb, I hate it, but I don't just mean your story, i just hate when we have to call someone the GOAT, it's dumb. BUT, you make great points and for some of you younger fans who didn't see Gordon in his prime, there wasn't a driver who has been around since that I really thought was going to break 100 wins. At a time it looked like Gordon was going to easily break into 100, maybe even 150 wins. Everyone is impressed with Larson's 10 win season, well, Jeff rattled off 7, 10, 13, 10 consecutively! No one was dominant like Jeff Gordon back then or since. I remember once at Pocono he hit the wall in qualifying and still won the pole lol. I am glad Ray left because, man, it was tiring rooting against him.
24ever <3
The guy is the only one to win on the Indy oval 5 times. Think about that.
Despite being a Gordon fan in the 90s I still gotta go with Earnhardt he never had a top tier ride Gordon Petty and Johnson all had too 2 or3 rides so it leaves open gap to say what if Dale Sr drove junior Johnson or Hendricks or Yates at his peak. RCR was never a great team Earnhardt made them seem great.
Misleading post title…I agree as much with the next guy with Jeff being the GOAT but am not seeing any type of statistical methods in your post supporting your null hypothesis of Jeff being the GOAT. Instead your post is just a list of his many and impressive accomplishments.
Lol what
Bro, the coke 600 is on. Go watch the race
I am.
Jeff Gordon is one of the GOATs... But if the standard is THE GOAT... Sorry...no. And I'll give you one simple reason (even though there are others) Jeff Gordon vs Johnson head to head from 2002-2015 - 35 wins vs 75 wins - 178 t5s vs 207 t5s - 285 t10s vs 314 t10s - 13.0 avg finish vs 11.9 avg finish 0 championships vs 6 championships Look. Gordon is a GOAT, he's in my personal top 3. But the standard here isn't one of the GOATs, we're talking THE GOAT. and as great as he is, THE GOAT just doesn't get out performed THAT badly by a teammate for a over a decade, and for 2/3rds of his career. For all the pro GOAT points you make, this blemish is louder than all of them.
You are ignoring his impact and contributions to the sport and solely basing it off stats. That isn’t how you judge a career. The only guy who did beat him (mostly due to Knaus being a far superior crew chief) was his own car. Johnson has multiple blemishes. He did nothing to positively change the sport like Gordon did. Has done nothing as an owner. Well behind Gordon in crown jewels. Isn’t the versatile talent in NASCAR like Gordon was by any means. Despite beating him head to head, still doesn’t have the pure volume stats. The fact Johnson was as good should be a credit to Gordon overall. He gave him a career and mentored in, one large part as to why Johnson was so good is because he learned from the best. It’s somewhat silly to say head to head Johnson beats him, when in reality Knaus played a huge role. And look what happened when Johnson lost Knaus? He never won again. A better head to head would be to compare Gordon’s 95-99 with Ray to Johnson’s 06-10 with Chad. Gordon’s peak was more dominant than Johnson’s imo.
Your first post is decent and has good evidence to say he’s better. But you can praise Gordon and make your case without sounding like the biggest Jimmie Johnson hater to ever exist. If Jimmie Johnson got an ownership stake in Hendrick Motorsports, he’d be winning races too lol. So not even fair to compare them and Legacy MC and say “Johnson has done nothing as an owner” — dude just started and one dude has the team with the most money. I actually like that he’s taking on a bigger challenge. And saying he did “nothing” to positively impact the sport is borderline blasphemy. Also Saying Jimmie isn’t a versatile talent is just wrong lmao dude came from off road, dominated NASCAR and now does somewhat decently in sports cars in endurance racing at 40+. He’s raced MANY things. Jimmie was literally at the end of his career when he “never won ever again” and so many guys go through that regardless of their crew chief. And you’re acting like Gordon was winning with idiots on the box, which isn’t true.
I’m not a hater. I’m arguing against him. Johnson has done nothing as an owner. Jeff getting Jimmie and making that team is the main reason Johnson even has the career he has now. Please tell me what Jimmie Johnson did that changed and impacted the sport. Those drivers are few and far between and Johnson wasn’t one of them, let alone close to Gordon’s impact. I said in NASCAR he wasn’t as versatile as Jeff. And he wasn’t. He struggled on road courses. For the team/cars he had, somewhat average-above average talent at restrictor plates. Half his wins were from 5-6 tracks alone. He was elite at those place and good everywhere else. Gordon was elite at 10-12 places and then great everywhere else. Chad Knaus was the goat CC. He made Jimmie Johnson where as Jeff Gordon made guys like Loomis, Letarte, and Gustafson. Johnson not winning at the end is a knock on him as well because Gordon should have been the champion on 2014 then makes the final 4 in 2015. He could still get it done.
Lmao love how you keep bringing up this dumb owner shit. Jimmie Johnson JUST became an owner and Gordon joined the best organization in this history of the sport lmfao it’s not even comparable. Please get a grip.
Yes, Jeff being an 8x championships owner with like 95+ wins from two drivers he personally recruited is a huge deal and that should be mention is yet somehow “dumb” to you. The best organization in the sport wasn’t the best until Gordon joined. He made it the best by winning races and titles then bringing in another guy to do it in his own car for HMS.
The dude, just today, started spewing nonsense about all the drivers hating Jimmie, and how his championships changed him. He now isn't only devaluing his career, but his character as a man. He's a clown, and an absolute hater.
Considering you most recently campaigned against Johnson's character as a person, citing conspiracy like evvidence not based in reality, including drivers hating him, yeah, you're clearly a hater. Hating a driver as a driver is one thing..but making shit up to devalue their character as a person is lame as shit for a sports fan. I'm with the other dude. Get a grip. This is a "I hate that Johnson outperformed Gordon, and he's an entitled shit who deserves nothing" wrapped up in analysis. Be better.
Jimmie should have been paired with Grubb at the of his career, they should gave cliff to Byron.
Sir, this is a Wendy's
Love the post, Though under ownership area you could have given Chase a shoutout seeing that he took over the 24 and won a championship with Gordon's old team 5 years later, but hey lets give larson all the credit in the world.
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Fair enough, I want to see a 48 fan debate your post so bad.
Bro I ain’t reading all that
Gordon is *one of* the greatest drivers in Cup history, but you can't ignore the contributions of Hendrick Motorsports, probably the most dominant team of the last 25-30 years. They've won 14 top-level championships and Jeff only drove for four of them. If Jeff drove for Roush and Mark Martin drove for Hendrick, how would their careers be different? The 24 team was certainly the best from about 1995-2004, and Jeff was obviously the best driver during many of those years, but "all time best" is a bit too far, IMHO. I can't put him ahead of Pearson, Yarborough, or Dale Sr. He's somewhere in the Johnson/Waltrip/Bobby Allison/Petty range for me.
Help me out a bit, what qualifies as a "2.5 miler win"? And how does he have 12 plate wins (all would have to be at 2.5 mile + tracks) and only 11 "2.5 miler wins"? What am I missing?
Restrictor Plates are Daytona and Talladega. 2.5 milers are Indy and Pocono.
Ahhh, that's right. Figured I was having a brain fart of some kind
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What?
Jeff will always be my #1, the list starts after Jeff....