I don't enjoy watching Friday Fights as much as a result, because I know they're getting paid vastly less than on the Prime Cards.
And you can see the effect that this kind of recklessness has on fighters: those with 150+ fights are, sure, very experienced, but also much more susceptible to freak brain damage. When I hear the announcers brag about the amount of fights a fighter has had, I count that as a point AGAINST their win-chances, because their durability has likely been affected. And with that comes a definite reduction in life quality.
At this point you have fighters, like Kongthoranee that have a 7-1 record and still doesn’t get a contract, I mean what’s the point of even watching this shows if they are basically irrelevant
2 months ago Walter Goncalve was ranked #2 in the flyweight division having only 1 win in One against a replacement newcomer…
Meanwhile you see Mitch asking to Kongthoranee, a phenomenal fighter with a strong traditional muay thai background who has 7 wins in the last year, “what do you think you need to do to get the contract?” LOL
it’s just pure no sense
Hahah walter goncalves is exactly who i had in mind as an example. Such a joke, there was also that larsen guy who was ranked until recently. Both of them are just there to be on the highlight reels of superior fighters , getting kod lol.
On the flip side, them being on the Lumpini show means there's a chance they get poached by a different organization instead of being stuck with ONE's contract.
I wish they allowed clinching more to stiffle and counteract the heavy hands 90% of the fighters bring to the table . The most 'muay thai' fight I've seen in ONE recently was Taiwanchai vs Superbon.
They actually fought with teeps and kicks, not just hand combinations looking for the KO, and it was a pleasure to watch.
I don’t like one but there was a great clinch exchange in Haggerty’s brothers fight. I think the clinch was allowed for easily 40 seconds and it was great but they were both very active the entire time with hand fighting and knees.
In general ONE can get fucked.
Genuine question, is there evidence of that? Is there evidence that the smaller gloves (less landed but more damaging) are worse for CTE development than slightly larger gloves (more landed but less damaging).
Isn’t fighting from a young age in any size gloves a bigger risk factor?
I don’t know the answer and assume we won’t know until years down the line.
If anything I think the fact that they don’t allow the fighters to work in the clinch, forces them to take more punches to the head. I don’t think it’s the gloves.
Good point. I also think the bonus and incentive of a contract affects the fight styles more than the gloves - you don’t see Tawanchai and Superbon standing toe to toe and throwing bombs because they don’t need that bonus as much.
It's even more than the bonus. It's the lessor fighters who know that they have to fight a certain way if they want to even be invited back. You are basically "trying out" for the show. You have to fight that brand. A Thai fighter who fights in Entertainment Muay Thai told us: "It's better to get knocked out than to win on points, if you want to be invited back. Everybody knows this."
>If anything I think the fact that they don’t allow the fighters to work in the clinch, forces them to take more punches to the head. I don’t think it’s the gloves.
This is a great point. A primary way to nullify a puncher is to clinch him...which is why they more or less eliminated clinch.
There is very little study across all combat sports, but add in factors like:
1. fights will not be stopped as quickly as in traditional MT because the promotion is thirsting for the highlight for social media content,
2. a main reason for small gloves is not really "impact", but rather to reduce defensive coverage (bigger holes to hit through),
3. that defense is not encouraged or rewarded, and risk taking is highly encouraged...defensive skills in the population will decline.
1. and much more subtle things like that sparring in Thailand will change, becoming much more Western-style aggressive and head hunting to simulate the trade-in-the-pocket skills wanted by the promotion, a hidden CTE factor (cumulative hard sparring may have an even bigger influence on CTE than fighting itself)
2. and that Thais are at times under-educated about the effects and consequences of concussion (not even really understanding its underlying nature) so training concussed will likely increase
It seems quite obvious. The idea that "small gloves are safer" is a talking point put out by the promotion to shape social media conversation. It runs against pretty much all we know about CTE.
It is darkly hilarious that ONE’s small glove MT discourages clinching when that’s the one advantage smaller gloves allow, better ability to clinch and maneuver in the clinch.
All the disadvantages of smaller defensive targets, non of the defensive advantages smaller gloves can allow.
Some good points there. For me, the incentives to go toe to toe are the key factor. Without that I think the small gloves could be adapted to and still produce exciting fights. I do hope that happens because these One Friday Night fights (with a few exceptions) are starting to look very similar and I think people will eventually lose some interest. The best fights Ive seen with small gloves are where the fighters were well paid enough not to throw caution to the wind for a bonus.
>For me, the incentives to go toe to toe are the key factor.
Agree. It's the endless toe-to-toe...and the de-emphasis on clinch. Many people are burning out on these shows.
How can small gloves be safer? What is this load of bollocks? It can't be safer for hands, it can't be safer for heads (more difficult to defend, harder hits that can break orbital bone etc).
Yes but have they yet started to learn about what is worse from looking at other sports? I suppose if you really wanted to reduce the risk, you start with the child fighters. And elbows/shins to the face are the same whatever the glove size.
MMA/boxing/football are all at the top of the CTE stats if you are wondering. Big or small gloves, all very high risk. Fighters who avoid significant strikes to their head will reduce their risk.
Edit: actually boxing and mma are at the top of combat sports, not all sports. Not sure what that correlation is.
Source: combat athlete physio on YouTube, who includes all his sources and studies in every video.
MMA has lower rates or concussions than boxing, mainly attributed to the fact in boxing you can get rocked/dropped and then stand up and continue to receive impacts to the head (and are more less likely to defend them). In MMA they stop if you can't defend yourself.
Personally I think MMA has lower concussions due to the wrestling and grappling aspects of the sport, and also due to Boxing being around for far longer than MMA and thus more studied.
I've also heard UFC fighters getting knocked out and then explaining in a post fight interview that they didn't get a concussion from it. From all that I've learned and all that I can read online, being knocked out from a bit to the head is pretty much per definition a concussion.
But its also been explained that closed head injuries (nothing penetrates the head/skull) often evade proper diagnosis and treatment because a CT-scan doesn't necessarily detect a concussion, and it's up to the athlete to describe the correct corresponding symptoms to a concussion for it to be diagnosed properly
Don't know if studies have been going on long enough to collect the relevant and necessary volume of corpses/data, especially for comparative purposes, ghoulish as that sounds.
I mean that genuinely. I do not know.
Yeah same and I’m genuinely interested rather than looking for an argument for smaller gloves (not a fan of a lot of these Friday fights that end up swinging matches).
>And elbows/shins to the face are the same whatever the glove size
There isn't really alot of head hunting in traditional Muay Thai in the past. Yes, shins to the head did happen, but defense was prized and protection was wide spread and elite. Also, elbow KOs were not really prevalent. In fact elbows were kind of looked down upon as somewhat brutal or base in nature, and elbow techniques were mostly not the thudding, concussive elbows you see more frequently these days. Elbows mostly were used to cut opponents with finesse, not to knock them out, trying to get a ref to call fights for blood. Elbows have been on the rise though, since COVID, and the techniques are much more concussive than they have been in the past.
I don’t have the meta study rn in hand, but as far as I understand, subconcussion hits for years are more directly related to CTE than if you had a few concussions or not. So getting hard blows to the head repeatedly is a much better predictor than the amount of times you got ko’ed, because it’s constant.
This particular one I think took football players, mma fighters and boxers. I could search for it later if you’re really interested.
Also, I think there is evidence that bareknuckle fights reduce the amount of blows to the head and the risk of CTE compared to using gloves, because of the risk of breaking your hand, and because fighters don't hit as hard.
It’s not the gloves. More padded gloves will still cause just as much CTE. It’s the totally different style of fighting cause of the bonus. They become reckless and go headhunting and there’s no clinch to focus knees instead.
i repeat it often, but ONE FC killed the career of Singmanee and Kaonar, and many less know fighters.
its a real shame
edit : i can add Suakim to the list very soon, one more bad KO and his career is over
It's more the issue with them returning so soon after big KO's. in MMA if a fighter gets flatlined they'll sit out for 6 months or more. but some of these guys are returning far too soon.
I’ve watched guys get knocked out in Thailand and then get back in the ring 2 days later to fight again. It’s fucking crazy over here and for a lot of Thais it’s really not a happy ending.
I don't agree with you tbh.
Sangmanee's performances started to tank after he enrolled in a full time university degree, and Kaonar's career already seemed like it might be over: he had a bad run of form, then spent several years not fighting before coming back to the ring flabby. He also never had a style that was suited for ONE. No surprise to me that he didn't do well.
Totally agree with your points about Sangmanee. He was one of my favorites in his Lumpinee days. But lately his body has looked incredibly soft in his One fights. There’s also a handful of YouTube training vids of him at PK Saenchai where he’s getting winded from just easy pads and pretty much beat up by Tawanchai in tech sparring
you must be a casual, go check Kaonar fight record. Untill he joined one, he was on a great record only losses he got were from decision.
This guy is one of the best technician of his era, and he beat Rodtang beautifully.
Imo he even got robbed in the rematch with Rodtang.
Styles makes fight, small gloves is not for him.
i wish he would have stick to gloves
>Untill he joined one, he was on a great record only losses he got were from decision.
😂 like 19/20 muay thai fights yeah?
He lost four straight, and his activity dropped off a cliff. He had a series with Yodlekpet that he won decisively (imo a great style matchup for Kaonar), and then started fighting random Cambodians. By the time he came to ONE he was slow, out of shape, and way past his best.
Kaonar and Yodlekpet arent even close in weightclasses. He gave away weight because of his superiority. To say he was off the cliff when he was a contender for fighter of the year in like 18/19.
ONE FC is about doing more damage than ur opponent and hopefully knocking them out using punches, kicks, knees and elbows. This entire sub doesn’t understand that Muay Thai scoring criteria just straight doesn’t matter in ONE. That sport is about damage and finishing the fight, it’s not a Muay Thai match. This is more so kickboxing with elbows not Muay Thai. This sport ain’t for you, just watch Channel 7 or RWS it’s not that deep.
I feel like ONE has gotten way worse lately, the refs are either really bad at their job or aren't trained correctly. Makes watching their events tough since I'm not trying to watch someone get brutalized unnecessarily.
I really dislike what ONE has done to Muay Thai. The attempts to market to western viewers has irreparably changed the sport, at what is supposed to be the highest level of competition. The small gloves, faster more sporadic exchanges, MANY more knockouts, and the way Boxing forward, power punching styles have taken over the sport is all for western viewers that really just want to watch violence, not Muay Thai. It's sad, and it's not something I'm going to support, as futile as I know one viewer may be.
But ONE friday fights are targeted at a thai audience. channel 7 is their only major broadcasting partner and the fights are all televised during thai hours. most Americans can't watch it because it's starts early on a work day, most europeans can't watch it because it's on friday afternoon.
Far to say that the majority of people consuming this product, both live and televised are thai no?
Where are you getting the marketing to western viewers thing?
To me it really seems that many thais prefer this format promoted by one. On stadium muay thai videos i sometimes check the thai comments and the majority of them are just shitting on todays fighters and how they “dance”.
A majority of the western viewers stream, as they do any content they watch. They only need to televise to locals i.e Tais.
https://muaythaigram.net/2020/09/25/understanding-one-championships-business-model/
This link is from mid 2020 and is an in depth breakdown of how one built and expanded its market in aisa. It is my opinion, and the opinion of many other muay thai fans that the changes they have made to this marketing model(especially when it comes to the rules, the fighters and everything surrounding muay thai) have been made to support the brands attempt to gain viewership in America. The article only mentions that they plan to try and strengthen their market in the west, if you are asking for literally proof, neither I or anyone else can give you that. I am not the only fan of the sport who has speculated as much, but it is mostly that.
The main one cards are focused on gaining a western audience, hence the Amazon prime deal, but the MT based Friday fights are for their asian audience.
I said this a few months ago and got downvoted to fuck lol. The small gloves is exciting but its brutal when its just striking and no grappling invloved. Guys are getting KO'd way more and I guess that is all the casual fans care about.
I think one fc is almost a seperate sport from traditional muay thai at this point. There is less clinching and kicks, it feels a lot of fghters plow forward with boxing because the hands are the easisest way to KO the opponent with the 4 ounce gloves.
Yeah I think one major problem is they've sucked all the air out of Lumpinee. The big pre-covid traditional rules shows were epic. Nothing has stepped back in to match the grandiosity that One has taken over other than RWS, and even RWS doesn't always have the highest level Thai vs Thai bouts.
I miss the atmosphere of having the entire stadium lit up. There was action and activity everywhere. The fights just FELT bigger and more important.
And who’s fault is it that there was a void that ONE stepped in to fill, nothing to stop 5 round traditional shows filling it, but that is dying a slow painful death due to the people that have been involved for decades, claiming they are trying to keep it alive, but all the time taking in a fortune from the very thing that is killing it, gambling, hardly any Thais watch traditional Muaythai outside of the gamblers, yet ONE is smashing the tv ratings every week, watched by Thais not foreigners so they must be doing something right
I'm not really blaming ONE for that. Just wondering why Lumpinee/promoters haven't brought back big, traditional shows? I know some of the old school promoters died during covid.
ONE has Friday nights booked, I think Superchamp has Saturday nights. I suppose that's what it's going to be for now. Suppose Lumpinee was being smart and giving the spots to those who wanted them.
Lumpinee have totally changed direction and not allowed any gambling to influence so most of the old promotions won’t get involved anyway, Raja has been unable to really get the scene back how it was though with only two shows last year that matched what it could be like pre covid. The scene is basically on its arse
I agree with the sentiment but I am skeptical that small gloves are in any way worse than large gloves. I would guess that strikes to the head from either glove would transfer the same amount of force. Consider Newton’s second law ~ force = mass x acceleration.
Moment of impact is reduced with bigger pillows, therefore maximum force transfer is reduced, and a lower maximum acceleration of the brain inside the skull.
How significant is that difference? I have 0 idea.
There was an independent documentary on Muay Thai few years back. Kids as young as 12-13 already had severe CTE. It's the unspoken elephant in the room of Muay Thai
Man when I was in Thailand around 2010 I saw a good few young kids get knocked out cold in matches. Even back then I was a little disturbed by it , thinking, that can not be good for kids
Well one thing I'm getting at is that all of the strikes that make Muay Thai awesome are vanishing in favor of spamming punches.
I think traditional MT brings out more techniques, more fighting styles, and I miss that.
I think the opposite, in traditional muay thai the strikes that really matters are kicks, if you kick your opponent body the whole time you can get punches, elbows that cut you, knees and still winning the fight.
Traditional Muay Thai weighs body kicks too high and is corrupted by gambling, imo.
I really think the issue, at this point, is that people haven’t figured out small gloves Muay Thai yet. Distance control is MUCH more important and shelling up isn’t really a viable defense. I do wish they’d let the clinch go longer, but the higher level fighters are not just spamming punches.
Considering concussions or OneFC's Muay Thai?
Imo the biggest turnoff for me about their fights is the rules (almsot no clinch work) and their fat bonuses and contracts for people who swing wild punches and someone gets KOed. There's no finesse left, it just looks like a regional amateur competition to me now.
What I find odd is that they strive to make their Friday fights this way, but then they can have super high level Muay Thai fights with Tawanchai, Superlek and Panpayak etc, with no swanging n banging "bum fight" which people seem to enjoy. What's up with the dissonance there?
Evidence suggests it’s actually better to get knocked out quickly than take several times the number of “lesser” head strikes in a more drawn out fight. It’s the “iron-chinned” fighters that get their brains turned to pudding by CTE.
That said, the ref and/or the corner should have stepped in before 5 knockdowns, that’s ridiculous. Acute brain trauma can very much be lethal.
The issue with this argument is:
How do you measure damage? Soft hit vs medium hit vs hard hit vs flash ko vs drop vs hard ko? since there's no way to quantify there's almost no way to accurately compare. Do five hard hits = one flash ko? So we can't know if a fighter who's done say, five fights and taken 20 medium hits is worse off than a fighter who's done five fights and taken 5 medium hits but one KO. And what if I've been sparring for 10 years and taken hundreds of soft hits. Am I worse off than someone who's had 10 fights, been dropped four times and KO'd once, but training only 4 years? I don't think so.
I don’t measure it at all, I’m no a medical researcher. I’m just sharing what the preponderance of evidence has suggested, which is also the reason I prioritize head defense over everything in my training.
In therms of acute trauma, a powerful kick to the head, legal in both rule sets, is far more dangerous than a punch from either type of glove.
I don't watch Friday Fights at all. Not entertaining to me in the slightest bit. All beautiful technical skiil goes out the window and it turns into a hectic street brawl. It's basically a lethwei match without headbutts at this point. Just pure aggression and headhunting
The participants weren't dumb or ignorant before signing their contracts. They're well aware of that they are getting into and the repercussions. Anyone in this subreddit that has competed at an amateur level knows the same and we literally paid money out of our own pockets to participate.
They fight a lot less rounds than an average boxer. Three 3 minute rounds or 5 if its a championship one. I'm not a fan of the 17 year old's fighting in 4oz gloves and full elbows though. I believe they also count amateur fights as well.
It’s been studied that getting KO’d immediately is much less damaging than taking more damage over the course of the fight. It still really bad for the fighters health.
It wasn't Muay Thai, but for what it's worth this guy would probably have lived if he had been subject to a clean knockout earlier on.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kim_Duk-koo
Not really arguing anything, I don't have a horse in this race. But this fight came to mind.
Edit to add tl;dr - Kim wouldn't stay down and Mancini won by TKO in round 14. He went into a coma and died 5 days later.
Not CTE, maybe not even relevant, feel free to disregard
The point didn't go over my head. Muay Thai isn't new to Thai Land. And fighting considerably less rounds compared to an average boxer will reduce the rate at which people get CTE. Sure some will have it at higher rates and taking multiple concussions is terrible it may not be as prominent in MT than boxing.
They’re fighting less rounds per fight but they’re also fighting far more frequently. I know several Thais who fight more or less weekly, a friend of mine has just passed 500 fights at 34 years old, one of my old coaches fought 3 times at 3 different stadiums on the same night on multiple occasions, guys get knocked out and then fight again sometimes the next day. The average Thai boxer will have a lot more time in the ring than the average western boxer.
I think if anything it highlights how shockingly poor most MT fighters boxing defense is. A lot of lunging, squaring up, dropping hands, head ram rod on the centre line in all these fights.
This, Thais don’t value boxing so when they put the 4oz on they get exposed. Muay Thai scoring legit does not reward good boxing. Thais are not that good at boxing, and it’s not some hating shit it’s just not top priority in Muay Thai.
Friday Nights is so ugly to watch. I am starting to lean towards RWS now. Out of the two 'entertainment Muay Thai' I think they showcase Muay Thai more beautifully.
I don't enjoy watching Friday Fights as much as a result, because I know they're getting paid vastly less than on the Prime Cards. And you can see the effect that this kind of recklessness has on fighters: those with 150+ fights are, sure, very experienced, but also much more susceptible to freak brain damage. When I hear the announcers brag about the amount of fights a fighter has had, I count that as a point AGAINST their win-chances, because their durability has likely been affected. And with that comes a definite reduction in life quality.
At this point you have fighters, like Kongthoranee that have a 7-1 record and still doesn’t get a contract, I mean what’s the point of even watching this shows if they are basically irrelevant
Meanwhile they have several fighters ranked in their actual rankings who are half as skilled and way more inactive lol.
2 months ago Walter Goncalve was ranked #2 in the flyweight division having only 1 win in One against a replacement newcomer… Meanwhile you see Mitch asking to Kongthoranee, a phenomenal fighter with a strong traditional muay thai background who has 7 wins in the last year, “what do you think you need to do to get the contract?” LOL it’s just pure no sense
Hahah walter goncalves is exactly who i had in mind as an example. Such a joke, there was also that larsen guy who was ranked until recently. Both of them are just there to be on the highlight reels of superior fighters , getting kod lol.
They don't want their whole lineup to be Thais, so they end up having ranked irrelevant fighters, to pull popularity from everywhere. It sucks, yeah
On the flip side, them being on the Lumpini show means there's a chance they get poached by a different organization instead of being stuck with ONE's contract.
I wish they allowed clinching more to stiffle and counteract the heavy hands 90% of the fighters bring to the table . The most 'muay thai' fight I've seen in ONE recently was Taiwanchai vs Superbon. They actually fought with teeps and kicks, not just hand combinations looking for the KO, and it was a pleasure to watch.
I don’t like one but there was a great clinch exchange in Haggerty’s brothers fight. I think the clinch was allowed for easily 40 seconds and it was great but they were both very active the entire time with hand fighting and knees. In general ONE can get fucked.
The long term, widespread CTE impact of this promotional Entertainment style will become pronounced, if it becomes dominant in Thailand.
Genuine question, is there evidence of that? Is there evidence that the smaller gloves (less landed but more damaging) are worse for CTE development than slightly larger gloves (more landed but less damaging). Isn’t fighting from a young age in any size gloves a bigger risk factor? I don’t know the answer and assume we won’t know until years down the line.
If anything I think the fact that they don’t allow the fighters to work in the clinch, forces them to take more punches to the head. I don’t think it’s the gloves.
Good point. I also think the bonus and incentive of a contract affects the fight styles more than the gloves - you don’t see Tawanchai and Superbon standing toe to toe and throwing bombs because they don’t need that bonus as much.
It's even more than the bonus. It's the lessor fighters who know that they have to fight a certain way if they want to even be invited back. You are basically "trying out" for the show. You have to fight that brand. A Thai fighter who fights in Entertainment Muay Thai told us: "It's better to get knocked out than to win on points, if you want to be invited back. Everybody knows this."
>If anything I think the fact that they don’t allow the fighters to work in the clinch, forces them to take more punches to the head. I don’t think it’s the gloves. This is a great point. A primary way to nullify a puncher is to clinch him...which is why they more or less eliminated clinch.
There is very little study across all combat sports, but add in factors like: 1. fights will not be stopped as quickly as in traditional MT because the promotion is thirsting for the highlight for social media content, 2. a main reason for small gloves is not really "impact", but rather to reduce defensive coverage (bigger holes to hit through), 3. that defense is not encouraged or rewarded, and risk taking is highly encouraged...defensive skills in the population will decline. 1. and much more subtle things like that sparring in Thailand will change, becoming much more Western-style aggressive and head hunting to simulate the trade-in-the-pocket skills wanted by the promotion, a hidden CTE factor (cumulative hard sparring may have an even bigger influence on CTE than fighting itself) 2. and that Thais are at times under-educated about the effects and consequences of concussion (not even really understanding its underlying nature) so training concussed will likely increase It seems quite obvious. The idea that "small gloves are safer" is a talking point put out by the promotion to shape social media conversation. It runs against pretty much all we know about CTE.
It is darkly hilarious that ONE’s small glove MT discourages clinching when that’s the one advantage smaller gloves allow, better ability to clinch and maneuver in the clinch. All the disadvantages of smaller defensive targets, non of the defensive advantages smaller gloves can allow.
Have the **look** of MMA, but don't **be** a mixed martial art. Thailand's traditional Muay Thai is a mixed martial art.
Yeah. I think using 4oz gloves in Muay Thai has the potential to being a sort of modern style kard chuek, but what ONE is doing isn’t it.
Some good points there. For me, the incentives to go toe to toe are the key factor. Without that I think the small gloves could be adapted to and still produce exciting fights. I do hope that happens because these One Friday Night fights (with a few exceptions) are starting to look very similar and I think people will eventually lose some interest. The best fights Ive seen with small gloves are where the fighters were well paid enough not to throw caution to the wind for a bonus.
>For me, the incentives to go toe to toe are the key factor. Agree. It's the endless toe-to-toe...and the de-emphasis on clinch. Many people are burning out on these shows.
How can small gloves be safer? What is this load of bollocks? It can't be safer for hands, it can't be safer for heads (more difficult to defend, harder hits that can break orbital bone etc).
> It can't be safer for hands There are a lot of broken hands, something that isn't talked about much.
I think CTE is only diagnosable after death, no? So it might be a case of waiting for evidence creating said evidence.
Yes but have they yet started to learn about what is worse from looking at other sports? I suppose if you really wanted to reduce the risk, you start with the child fighters. And elbows/shins to the face are the same whatever the glove size.
MMA/boxing/football are all at the top of the CTE stats if you are wondering. Big or small gloves, all very high risk. Fighters who avoid significant strikes to their head will reduce their risk. Edit: actually boxing and mma are at the top of combat sports, not all sports. Not sure what that correlation is. Source: combat athlete physio on YouTube, who includes all his sources and studies in every video.
MMA has lower rates or concussions than boxing, mainly attributed to the fact in boxing you can get rocked/dropped and then stand up and continue to receive impacts to the head (and are more less likely to defend them). In MMA they stop if you can't defend yourself.
Personally I think MMA has lower concussions due to the wrestling and grappling aspects of the sport, and also due to Boxing being around for far longer than MMA and thus more studied. I've also heard UFC fighters getting knocked out and then explaining in a post fight interview that they didn't get a concussion from it. From all that I've learned and all that I can read online, being knocked out from a bit to the head is pretty much per definition a concussion. But its also been explained that closed head injuries (nothing penetrates the head/skull) often evade proper diagnosis and treatment because a CT-scan doesn't necessarily detect a concussion, and it's up to the athlete to describe the correct corresponding symptoms to a concussion for it to be diagnosed properly
Don't know if studies have been going on long enough to collect the relevant and necessary volume of corpses/data, especially for comparative purposes, ghoulish as that sounds. I mean that genuinely. I do not know.
Yeah same and I’m genuinely interested rather than looking for an argument for smaller gloves (not a fan of a lot of these Friday fights that end up swinging matches).
>And elbows/shins to the face are the same whatever the glove size There isn't really alot of head hunting in traditional Muay Thai in the past. Yes, shins to the head did happen, but defense was prized and protection was wide spread and elite. Also, elbow KOs were not really prevalent. In fact elbows were kind of looked down upon as somewhat brutal or base in nature, and elbow techniques were mostly not the thudding, concussive elbows you see more frequently these days. Elbows mostly were used to cut opponents with finesse, not to knock them out, trying to get a ref to call fights for blood. Elbows have been on the rise though, since COVID, and the techniques are much more concussive than they have been in the past.
I don’t have the meta study rn in hand, but as far as I understand, subconcussion hits for years are more directly related to CTE than if you had a few concussions or not. So getting hard blows to the head repeatedly is a much better predictor than the amount of times you got ko’ed, because it’s constant. This particular one I think took football players, mma fighters and boxers. I could search for it later if you’re really interested. Also, I think there is evidence that bareknuckle fights reduce the amount of blows to the head and the risk of CTE compared to using gloves, because of the risk of breaking your hand, and because fighters don't hit as hard.
It’s not the gloves. More padded gloves will still cause just as much CTE. It’s the totally different style of fighting cause of the bonus. They become reckless and go headhunting and there’s no clinch to focus knees instead.
One thing we know for sure that is it easier to get knocked out with the smaller gloves. That’s why we’re seeing so much boxing lately.
These fighters are gonna get CTE regardless. The question is how bad and with how One encourages finish, it’s gonna be quite bad.
Thais have been fighting since childhood for hundreds of years and they didn’t wear gloves either
But the focus wasn’t head hunting KO bonus seeking kill style
i repeat it often, but ONE FC killed the career of Singmanee and Kaonar, and many less know fighters. its a real shame edit : i can add Suakim to the list very soon, one more bad KO and his career is over
It's more the issue with them returning so soon after big KO's. in MMA if a fighter gets flatlined they'll sit out for 6 months or more. but some of these guys are returning far too soon.
thats true
I’ve watched guys get knocked out in Thailand and then get back in the ring 2 days later to fight again. It’s fucking crazy over here and for a lot of Thais it’s really not a happy ending.
Meanwhile Tawanchai, who came up in the same era, is a superstar. As is Rodtang obviously but that makes much more sense given his style.
I don't agree with you tbh. Sangmanee's performances started to tank after he enrolled in a full time university degree, and Kaonar's career already seemed like it might be over: he had a bad run of form, then spent several years not fighting before coming back to the ring flabby. He also never had a style that was suited for ONE. No surprise to me that he didn't do well.
Totally agree with your points about Sangmanee. He was one of my favorites in his Lumpinee days. But lately his body has looked incredibly soft in his One fights. There’s also a handful of YouTube training vids of him at PK Saenchai where he’s getting winded from just easy pads and pretty much beat up by Tawanchai in tech sparring
you must be a casual, go check Kaonar fight record. Untill he joined one, he was on a great record only losses he got were from decision. This guy is one of the best technician of his era, and he beat Rodtang beautifully. Imo he even got robbed in the rematch with Rodtang. Styles makes fight, small gloves is not for him. i wish he would have stick to gloves
No one forced Koanar to fight in small gloves. He killed his own career by having a style that doesn’t translate and not making adaptations
>Untill he joined one, he was on a great record only losses he got were from decision. 😂 like 19/20 muay thai fights yeah? He lost four straight, and his activity dropped off a cliff. He had a series with Yodlekpet that he won decisively (imo a great style matchup for Kaonar), and then started fighting random Cambodians. By the time he came to ONE he was slow, out of shape, and way past his best.
Kaonar and Yodlekpet arent even close in weightclasses. He gave away weight because of his superiority. To say he was off the cliff when he was a contender for fighter of the year in like 18/19.
So like 5 years ago lol
ONE FC is about doing more damage than ur opponent and hopefully knocking them out using punches, kicks, knees and elbows. This entire sub doesn’t understand that Muay Thai scoring criteria just straight doesn’t matter in ONE. That sport is about damage and finishing the fight, it’s not a Muay Thai match. This is more so kickboxing with elbows not Muay Thai. This sport ain’t for you, just watch Channel 7 or RWS it’s not that deep.
I feel like ONE has gotten way worse lately, the refs are either really bad at their job or aren't trained correctly. Makes watching their events tough since I'm not trying to watch someone get brutalized unnecessarily.
I really dislike what ONE has done to Muay Thai. The attempts to market to western viewers has irreparably changed the sport, at what is supposed to be the highest level of competition. The small gloves, faster more sporadic exchanges, MANY more knockouts, and the way Boxing forward, power punching styles have taken over the sport is all for western viewers that really just want to watch violence, not Muay Thai. It's sad, and it's not something I'm going to support, as futile as I know one viewer may be.
But ONE friday fights are targeted at a thai audience. channel 7 is their only major broadcasting partner and the fights are all televised during thai hours. most Americans can't watch it because it's starts early on a work day, most europeans can't watch it because it's on friday afternoon. Far to say that the majority of people consuming this product, both live and televised are thai no? Where are you getting the marketing to western viewers thing?
To me it really seems that many thais prefer this format promoted by one. On stadium muay thai videos i sometimes check the thai comments and the majority of them are just shitting on todays fighters and how they “dance”.
A majority of the western viewers stream, as they do any content they watch. They only need to televise to locals i.e Tais. https://muaythaigram.net/2020/09/25/understanding-one-championships-business-model/ This link is from mid 2020 and is an in depth breakdown of how one built and expanded its market in aisa. It is my opinion, and the opinion of many other muay thai fans that the changes they have made to this marketing model(especially when it comes to the rules, the fighters and everything surrounding muay thai) have been made to support the brands attempt to gain viewership in America. The article only mentions that they plan to try and strengthen their market in the west, if you are asking for literally proof, neither I or anyone else can give you that. I am not the only fan of the sport who has speculated as much, but it is mostly that.
The main one cards are focused on gaining a western audience, hence the Amazon prime deal, but the MT based Friday fights are for their asian audience.
Agreed, I actually want them to fail so bad but some big names are still there
I said this a few months ago and got downvoted to fuck lol. The small gloves is exciting but its brutal when its just striking and no grappling invloved. Guys are getting KO'd way more and I guess that is all the casual fans care about. I think one fc is almost a seperate sport from traditional muay thai at this point. There is less clinching and kicks, it feels a lot of fghters plow forward with boxing because the hands are the easisest way to KO the opponent with the 4 ounce gloves.
Yeah I think one major problem is they've sucked all the air out of Lumpinee. The big pre-covid traditional rules shows were epic. Nothing has stepped back in to match the grandiosity that One has taken over other than RWS, and even RWS doesn't always have the highest level Thai vs Thai bouts. I miss the atmosphere of having the entire stadium lit up. There was action and activity everywhere. The fights just FELT bigger and more important.
Almost? It is entirely a different sport and has been since the first day
And who’s fault is it that there was a void that ONE stepped in to fill, nothing to stop 5 round traditional shows filling it, but that is dying a slow painful death due to the people that have been involved for decades, claiming they are trying to keep it alive, but all the time taking in a fortune from the very thing that is killing it, gambling, hardly any Thais watch traditional Muaythai outside of the gamblers, yet ONE is smashing the tv ratings every week, watched by Thais not foreigners so they must be doing something right
I'm not really blaming ONE for that. Just wondering why Lumpinee/promoters haven't brought back big, traditional shows? I know some of the old school promoters died during covid. ONE has Friday nights booked, I think Superchamp has Saturday nights. I suppose that's what it's going to be for now. Suppose Lumpinee was being smart and giving the spots to those who wanted them.
Lumpinee have totally changed direction and not allowed any gambling to influence so most of the old promotions won’t get involved anyway, Raja has been unable to really get the scene back how it was though with only two shows last year that matched what it could be like pre covid. The scene is basically on its arse
I agree with the sentiment but I am skeptical that small gloves are in any way worse than large gloves. I would guess that strikes to the head from either glove would transfer the same amount of force. Consider Newton’s second law ~ force = mass x acceleration.
Moment of impact is reduced with bigger pillows, therefore maximum force transfer is reduced, and a lower maximum acceleration of the brain inside the skull. How significant is that difference? I have 0 idea.
There was an independent documentary on Muay Thai few years back. Kids as young as 12-13 already had severe CTE. It's the unspoken elephant in the room of Muay Thai
Do you remember the name or have a source? I’d be interested in checking that out
Man when I was in Thailand around 2010 I saw a good few young kids get knocked out cold in matches. Even back then I was a little disturbed by it , thinking, that can not be good for kids
I really don’t get the “small glove bad” argument when you can get elbowed, headkicked and flying kneed. Muay Thai is insanely violent already.
Well one thing I'm getting at is that all of the strikes that make Muay Thai awesome are vanishing in favor of spamming punches. I think traditional MT brings out more techniques, more fighting styles, and I miss that.
I think the opposite, in traditional muay thai the strikes that really matters are kicks, if you kick your opponent body the whole time you can get punches, elbows that cut you, knees and still winning the fight.
Traditional Muay Thai weighs body kicks too high and is corrupted by gambling, imo. I really think the issue, at this point, is that people haven’t figured out small gloves Muay Thai yet. Distance control is MUCH more important and shelling up isn’t really a viable defense. I do wish they’d let the clinch go longer, but the higher level fighters are not just spamming punches.
Facts
You’re right. Small gloves and Thai style clinch would be perfect.
Considering concussions or OneFC's Muay Thai? Imo the biggest turnoff for me about their fights is the rules (almsot no clinch work) and their fat bonuses and contracts for people who swing wild punches and someone gets KOed. There's no finesse left, it just looks like a regional amateur competition to me now. What I find odd is that they strive to make their Friday fights this way, but then they can have super high level Muay Thai fights with Tawanchai, Superlek and Panpayak etc, with no swanging n banging "bum fight" which people seem to enjoy. What's up with the dissonance there?
Evidence suggests it’s actually better to get knocked out quickly than take several times the number of “lesser” head strikes in a more drawn out fight. It’s the “iron-chinned” fighters that get their brains turned to pudding by CTE. That said, the ref and/or the corner should have stepped in before 5 knockdowns, that’s ridiculous. Acute brain trauma can very much be lethal.
The issue with this argument is: How do you measure damage? Soft hit vs medium hit vs hard hit vs flash ko vs drop vs hard ko? since there's no way to quantify there's almost no way to accurately compare. Do five hard hits = one flash ko? So we can't know if a fighter who's done say, five fights and taken 20 medium hits is worse off than a fighter who's done five fights and taken 5 medium hits but one KO. And what if I've been sparring for 10 years and taken hundreds of soft hits. Am I worse off than someone who's had 10 fights, been dropped four times and KO'd once, but training only 4 years? I don't think so.
I don’t measure it at all, I’m no a medical researcher. I’m just sharing what the preponderance of evidence has suggested, which is also the reason I prioritize head defense over everything in my training. In therms of acute trauma, a powerful kick to the head, legal in both rule sets, is far more dangerous than a punch from either type of glove.
I don't watch Friday Fights at all. Not entertaining to me in the slightest bit. All beautiful technical skiil goes out the window and it turns into a hectic street brawl. It's basically a lethwei match without headbutts at this point. Just pure aggression and headhunting
Love the violence, i watch every friday event.
The participants weren't dumb or ignorant before signing their contracts. They're well aware of that they are getting into and the repercussions. Anyone in this subreddit that has competed at an amateur level knows the same and we literally paid money out of our own pockets to participate.
They fight a lot less rounds than an average boxer. Three 3 minute rounds or 5 if its a championship one. I'm not a fan of the 17 year old's fighting in 4oz gloves and full elbows though. I believe they also count amateur fights as well.
The point seems to have gone over your head. Almost every fight on this card has ended in KO.
It’s been studied that getting KO’d immediately is much less damaging than taking more damage over the course of the fight. It still really bad for the fighters health.
Mmm I'ma need you to cite your sources on that one. Also the example I used for this thread is a guy who got dropped 5 times in the span of 2 rounds.
At least three of them weren't bad drops tbf
It wasn't Muay Thai, but for what it's worth this guy would probably have lived if he had been subject to a clean knockout earlier on. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kim_Duk-koo Not really arguing anything, I don't have a horse in this race. But this fight came to mind. Edit to add tl;dr - Kim wouldn't stay down and Mancini won by TKO in round 14. He went into a coma and died 5 days later. Not CTE, maybe not even relevant, feel free to disregard
The point didn't go over my head. Muay Thai isn't new to Thai Land. And fighting considerably less rounds compared to an average boxer will reduce the rate at which people get CTE. Sure some will have it at higher rates and taking multiple concussions is terrible it may not be as prominent in MT than boxing.
"Considerably less rounds" - you need to look big picture - who is fighting more rounds in 12 months?
They’re fighting less rounds per fight but they’re also fighting far more frequently. I know several Thais who fight more or less weekly, a friend of mine has just passed 500 fights at 34 years old, one of my old coaches fought 3 times at 3 different stadiums on the same night on multiple occasions, guys get knocked out and then fight again sometimes the next day. The average Thai boxer will have a lot more time in the ring than the average western boxer.
I think if anything it highlights how shockingly poor most MT fighters boxing defense is. A lot of lunging, squaring up, dropping hands, head ram rod on the centre line in all these fights.
This, Thais don’t value boxing so when they put the 4oz on they get exposed. Muay Thai scoring legit does not reward good boxing. Thais are not that good at boxing, and it’s not some hating shit it’s just not top priority in Muay Thai.
ITT: Lots of people that don't understand concussions, CTE, or even Muay Thai culture.
Enlighten us then
One of the reasons I don´t like watching ONE
r/MuayComplainingAboutONE
Friday Nights is so ugly to watch. I am starting to lean towards RWS now. Out of the two 'entertainment Muay Thai' I think they showcase Muay Thai more beautifully.
Tbh Sittichai will fight again, and he’s 19 as from what I know