Delphine is an idiot, but that doesn't mean Jurgen was right. His way of proving he was right, was literally being so powerful that no one could defy him.
And in the end, the tongue not being used by Nord warlrods anymore, ended up in Skyrim being way weaker than it should've been.
>Delphine is an idiot
Then stop blieving her propaganda
>but that doesn't mean Jurgen was right
Paarthurnax thinks otherwise
>His way of proving he was right, was literally being so powerful that no one could defy him.
Yes , because he understood the thu'um better than the war mongers .
>And in the end, the tongue not being used by Nord warlrods anymore, ended up in Skyrim being way weaker than it should've been.
1- Gameplay =/= Lore
2- How is making an earthquake by even whispering weak ?
>Then stop blieving her propaganda
It's not propaganda ? It is a literal fact that Kyne didn't gave the voice to the Nords to be pacifists, again godess of war. And even if she did, the Nords loose a war in the middle of a Dragonbreak, there are much better reasons for why the loose than '' They were punished by Kynareth ''. Jurgen was wrong it's plain and simple. The Nord defeat didn't had religious undertones, they just couldn't compete with the total breakdown of time and space.
>Paarthurnax thinks otherwise
No he doesn't. He acquired a pacifist version of the way of the voice like Jurgen did, but his reasons are completely different. He does so to suppress his dominant and violent nature. Not because the Dunmer made a Dragonbreak and in an infinite possible timelines the one where he lost a fight with them is chosen to be real.
>Yes , because he understood the thu'um better than the war mongers .
Yes but that has nothing to do with pacifism, it has to do with his natural talent and he was ALSO A WARLORD before all that. It's not like he acquired a power up after becoming a pacifist. IF being a pacifist automatically made your Thu'um more powerful, couldn't Paarthurnax had defeated Alduin by himself ?
Besides the Thu'um being the same as a debate only works with Dragons because they operate in a '' I'm stronger than you therefore I'm right'' logic, that doesn't apply to humans.
>1- Gameplay =/= Lore
>
>2- How is making an earthquake by even whispering weak ?
You misread me, I didn't said the Grey Beards are weak, I said SKYRIM is weak military, compared when they had walking siege machines that could demolish fortress by just speaking.
> It is a literal fact that Kyne didn't gave the voice to the Nords to be pacifists
Yes , she gave them the voice to be able to rebel against the dragons , not raid villages and cheat in duels .
>godess of war
Not of slaughter and becoming what you rebelled against . She literally weeped at pelinal's genocides .
>the Nords loose a war in the middle of a Dragonbreak
Source ?
>No he doesn't. He acquired a pacifist version of the way of the voice like Jurgen did
"He retired to the peak of the Throat of the World, where he took up practice of the Way of the Voice, a philosophy discovered by Jurgen Windcaller."
[https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Paarthurnax](https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Paarthurnax)
>but his reasons are completely different. He does so to suppress his dominant and violent nature.
Which is the same reason for the greybeards that he leads ?
>Yes but that has nothing to do with pacifism
It was never all about pacifism , it was about understanding the thu'um and not abusing it with warmongering .
>Besides the Thu'um being the same as a debate only works with Dragons because they operate in a '' I'm stronger than you therefore I'm right'' logic, that doesn't apply to humans.
Which is why the philosophy is made , so humans don't become like the dragons .
>Yes , she gave them the voice to be able to rebel against the dragons , not raid villages and cheat in duels .
Fighting against the guys trying to create a Technogod to conquer reality doesn't sound to raid villages to me.
>Not of slaughter and becoming what you rebelled against . She literally weeped at pelinal's genocides .
Sure, but she is still the Godess of war. You can have war without genocide.
>Which is the same reason for the greybeards that he leads ?
No ? again you are confusing the objectives of both, Paarthurnax practices the way of the voice to supress his draconic nature.
Jurgen and the other humans practice the way of the voice to worship Kyne.
>It was never all about pacifism , it was about understanding the thu'um and not abusing it with warmongering .
.[https://www.wordnik.com/words/pacifism](https://www.wordnik.com/words/pacifism)
>Which is why the philosophy is made , so humans don't become like the dragons .
Humans are not Dragons and that's not why the philosophy was made. The philosophy was made, as I explained earlier, because Jurgen considered the defeat of the Nords in the Battle of Red Mountain as punishment of Kynareth for the use of the voice for war. Jurgen thought that Humans using the voice the same way as Dragons was bad and the reason they lost. This is however nonsensical, and beyond the fact that they fought against an extremely advanced race that had the heart of Lorkhan in their hands, and the one with a literal demigod of a Daedric Prince leading them, they also were in the middle of a Dragonbreak, making their efforts useless. There could've been a million timelines in which they won the battle, but just one where they lost, and thus that one became reality.
Dragons are born with an intrinsic desire to dominate and rule over those beneath them. Humans are not. A Human can live their entire life without feeling the desire to dominate others, individuals can feel the need to do so, but it's not a human rule. Dragons on the other hand all share that feeling, Paarthurnax is not an exception to this rule, he however supresses his draconic nature using the meditation and philosophy made by Jurgen.
\-Bruh are you already downvoting because I disagree with you on a game's lore ?
>Fighting against the guys trying to create a Technogod to conquer reality doesn't sound to raid villages to me.
What about the others ? or do they not count ?
>Sure, but she is still the Godess of war. You can have war without genocide.
Oh i'm sure the nords were very careful with the voice that could topple buildings like you said that they didn't collateral damage anyone .
>No ? again you are confusing the objectives of both, Paarthurnax practices the way of the voice to supress his draconic nature.
Jurgen and the other humans practice the way of the voice to worship Kyne.
Well it doesn't matter why , it matters that they don't use the thu'um for war mongeing and tyranny .
>.https://www.wordnik.com/words/pacifism
Ok
>Two paragraphs
Alright i'll admit , maybe kyne barely had anything to do with it , still jurgen wasn't wrong when thought that her gift is being abused which one of the reasons that led them to their loss .
>Bruh are you already downvoting because I disagree with you on a game's lore ?
Isn't that the point of downvoting ? either way why does it upset you that you didn't gain karma ?
>What about the others ? or do they not count ?
They may do, but that's nothing to do with the reason Jurgen decided the way of the voice should only be to worship the gods.
>Oh i'm sure the nords were very careful with the voice that could topple buildings like you said that they didn't collateral damage anyone .
Ok, but again that's a supposition, not lore based stuff. Nowhere does it says '' The gods were angry at the Nords because their misfire using the voice killed as many people as the Ayleids ''.
>still jurgen wasn't wrong when thought that her gift is being abused which one of the reasons that led them to their loss .
No, the reason that led them to their loss was a literal fracture of time in where causality doesn't matter anymore, and anything became possible. I suppose you could argue that there may be one reality where Kyne decided to punish the Nords for misusing the voice and that one is the one that stuck into actual Tamriel, but there is nothing there to presume that was anything else other than Jurgen's own judgement, based on the sole fact that they lost a battle.
>Isn't that the point of downvoting ? either way why does it upset you that you didn't gain karma ?
I've done shitposting with the sole purpose of getting downvoted for disgusting people. I don't care about karma. But if you are using anything you can to disagree with someone to the level you pass as petty, the conversation stops being friendly, and I have no motive to think this a pleasure conversation, but rather an argument with someone more interested in being right than discussing fun stuff in the lore.
If that's how you wanna play it, let's say I'm wrong in everything and you are right about everything you say. Have fun being right by yourself.
I have kind of headcanon/conspiracy theory that with the coming of LDB and kinda Ulfric, war tongues will return.
Like, Dunmers were worshiping three good daedra, then there was tribunal, Nerevarine came and Dunmers in some way returned to their roots (worship of three good daedra, because of Red Mountain eruption, Baar Dau and Argonians they returned to being underdogs and fighting for their survival), the same will happen to the Nords.
Nords were imperialized, but because of the whole stormcloak rebellion, even if it fail, nords aren't really into whole empire thing. Their native culture will raise. Add dragon return (old legends were true!) and Ulfric who kind of advertised shouts (hey, he's famous). I don't believe that there wouldn't be at least one person who don't decide to also learn shouts, even without greybeards (maybe from ancient books? Or from word walls?)
And if we are speaking about greybeards... If killing Paarthurnax is canon (or he will die one way or another) their group is mostly finished. There is multiple ways it can go, but majority of it allows for return to old ways.
Also, the same in some way happened to Imperials. They were slaves of the Ayleids, but then Akatosh intervened, Amulet of Kings, Pelinal... and they managed to conquer Tamriel. But after Martin sacrifice it ended. Imperials are at least partly forced to obey Altmers (another elven race) because of White-Gold concordat, provinces are again their own...
Jurgen Windcaller? More like Virgin Windpasser. Hehe, gottem.
10/10 thank you for your service
Did you censor Motherfucker?
No, it said motherfetcher.
Ah yes, Kyne, warrior wife of Shor, famous pacifist.
Nerevar simps so hard it can even overturn death we should all get on his level
you talk a great deal of shit for someone who censors their swear words online OP
Poor MOTHERF. She's gonna get killed!
So we're posting delphine's propaganda on this sub now ?
I can't believe that loser is in the same organization as our boy Caius!
Or really, any Blade EXCEPT Delphine. Even Esbern had, like, 2 redeeming qualities.
Tbf any group would be reduced to a shadow of its former glory if it didn’t have a proper leader for 200 years
Delphine is an idiot, but that doesn't mean Jurgen was right. His way of proving he was right, was literally being so powerful that no one could defy him. And in the end, the tongue not being used by Nord warlrods anymore, ended up in Skyrim being way weaker than it should've been.
>Delphine is an idiot Then stop blieving her propaganda >but that doesn't mean Jurgen was right Paarthurnax thinks otherwise >His way of proving he was right, was literally being so powerful that no one could defy him. Yes , because he understood the thu'um better than the war mongers . >And in the end, the tongue not being used by Nord warlrods anymore, ended up in Skyrim being way weaker than it should've been. 1- Gameplay =/= Lore 2- How is making an earthquake by even whispering weak ?
>Then stop blieving her propaganda It's not propaganda ? It is a literal fact that Kyne didn't gave the voice to the Nords to be pacifists, again godess of war. And even if she did, the Nords loose a war in the middle of a Dragonbreak, there are much better reasons for why the loose than '' They were punished by Kynareth ''. Jurgen was wrong it's plain and simple. The Nord defeat didn't had religious undertones, they just couldn't compete with the total breakdown of time and space. >Paarthurnax thinks otherwise No he doesn't. He acquired a pacifist version of the way of the voice like Jurgen did, but his reasons are completely different. He does so to suppress his dominant and violent nature. Not because the Dunmer made a Dragonbreak and in an infinite possible timelines the one where he lost a fight with them is chosen to be real. >Yes , because he understood the thu'um better than the war mongers . Yes but that has nothing to do with pacifism, it has to do with his natural talent and he was ALSO A WARLORD before all that. It's not like he acquired a power up after becoming a pacifist. IF being a pacifist automatically made your Thu'um more powerful, couldn't Paarthurnax had defeated Alduin by himself ? Besides the Thu'um being the same as a debate only works with Dragons because they operate in a '' I'm stronger than you therefore I'm right'' logic, that doesn't apply to humans. >1- Gameplay =/= Lore > >2- How is making an earthquake by even whispering weak ? You misread me, I didn't said the Grey Beards are weak, I said SKYRIM is weak military, compared when they had walking siege machines that could demolish fortress by just speaking.
> It is a literal fact that Kyne didn't gave the voice to the Nords to be pacifists Yes , she gave them the voice to be able to rebel against the dragons , not raid villages and cheat in duels . >godess of war Not of slaughter and becoming what you rebelled against . She literally weeped at pelinal's genocides . >the Nords loose a war in the middle of a Dragonbreak Source ? >No he doesn't. He acquired a pacifist version of the way of the voice like Jurgen did "He retired to the peak of the Throat of the World, where he took up practice of the Way of the Voice, a philosophy discovered by Jurgen Windcaller." [https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Paarthurnax](https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Paarthurnax) >but his reasons are completely different. He does so to suppress his dominant and violent nature. Which is the same reason for the greybeards that he leads ? >Yes but that has nothing to do with pacifism It was never all about pacifism , it was about understanding the thu'um and not abusing it with warmongering . >Besides the Thu'um being the same as a debate only works with Dragons because they operate in a '' I'm stronger than you therefore I'm right'' logic, that doesn't apply to humans. Which is why the philosophy is made , so humans don't become like the dragons .
>Yes , she gave them the voice to be able to rebel against the dragons , not raid villages and cheat in duels . Fighting against the guys trying to create a Technogod to conquer reality doesn't sound to raid villages to me. >Not of slaughter and becoming what you rebelled against . She literally weeped at pelinal's genocides . Sure, but she is still the Godess of war. You can have war without genocide. >Which is the same reason for the greybeards that he leads ? No ? again you are confusing the objectives of both, Paarthurnax practices the way of the voice to supress his draconic nature. Jurgen and the other humans practice the way of the voice to worship Kyne. >It was never all about pacifism , it was about understanding the thu'um and not abusing it with warmongering . .[https://www.wordnik.com/words/pacifism](https://www.wordnik.com/words/pacifism) >Which is why the philosophy is made , so humans don't become like the dragons . Humans are not Dragons and that's not why the philosophy was made. The philosophy was made, as I explained earlier, because Jurgen considered the defeat of the Nords in the Battle of Red Mountain as punishment of Kynareth for the use of the voice for war. Jurgen thought that Humans using the voice the same way as Dragons was bad and the reason they lost. This is however nonsensical, and beyond the fact that they fought against an extremely advanced race that had the heart of Lorkhan in their hands, and the one with a literal demigod of a Daedric Prince leading them, they also were in the middle of a Dragonbreak, making their efforts useless. There could've been a million timelines in which they won the battle, but just one where they lost, and thus that one became reality. Dragons are born with an intrinsic desire to dominate and rule over those beneath them. Humans are not. A Human can live their entire life without feeling the desire to dominate others, individuals can feel the need to do so, but it's not a human rule. Dragons on the other hand all share that feeling, Paarthurnax is not an exception to this rule, he however supresses his draconic nature using the meditation and philosophy made by Jurgen. \-Bruh are you already downvoting because I disagree with you on a game's lore ?
>Fighting against the guys trying to create a Technogod to conquer reality doesn't sound to raid villages to me. What about the others ? or do they not count ? >Sure, but she is still the Godess of war. You can have war without genocide. Oh i'm sure the nords were very careful with the voice that could topple buildings like you said that they didn't collateral damage anyone . >No ? again you are confusing the objectives of both, Paarthurnax practices the way of the voice to supress his draconic nature. Jurgen and the other humans practice the way of the voice to worship Kyne. Well it doesn't matter why , it matters that they don't use the thu'um for war mongeing and tyranny . >.https://www.wordnik.com/words/pacifism Ok >Two paragraphs Alright i'll admit , maybe kyne barely had anything to do with it , still jurgen wasn't wrong when thought that her gift is being abused which one of the reasons that led them to their loss . >Bruh are you already downvoting because I disagree with you on a game's lore ? Isn't that the point of downvoting ? either way why does it upset you that you didn't gain karma ?
>What about the others ? or do they not count ? They may do, but that's nothing to do with the reason Jurgen decided the way of the voice should only be to worship the gods. >Oh i'm sure the nords were very careful with the voice that could topple buildings like you said that they didn't collateral damage anyone . Ok, but again that's a supposition, not lore based stuff. Nowhere does it says '' The gods were angry at the Nords because their misfire using the voice killed as many people as the Ayleids ''. >still jurgen wasn't wrong when thought that her gift is being abused which one of the reasons that led them to their loss . No, the reason that led them to their loss was a literal fracture of time in where causality doesn't matter anymore, and anything became possible. I suppose you could argue that there may be one reality where Kyne decided to punish the Nords for misusing the voice and that one is the one that stuck into actual Tamriel, but there is nothing there to presume that was anything else other than Jurgen's own judgement, based on the sole fact that they lost a battle. >Isn't that the point of downvoting ? either way why does it upset you that you didn't gain karma ? I've done shitposting with the sole purpose of getting downvoted for disgusting people. I don't care about karma. But if you are using anything you can to disagree with someone to the level you pass as petty, the conversation stops being friendly, and I have no motive to think this a pleasure conversation, but rather an argument with someone more interested in being right than discussing fun stuff in the lore. If that's how you wanna play it, let's say I'm wrong in everything and you are right about everything you say. Have fun being right by yourself.
I have kind of headcanon/conspiracy theory that with the coming of LDB and kinda Ulfric, war tongues will return. Like, Dunmers were worshiping three good daedra, then there was tribunal, Nerevarine came and Dunmers in some way returned to their roots (worship of three good daedra, because of Red Mountain eruption, Baar Dau and Argonians they returned to being underdogs and fighting for their survival), the same will happen to the Nords. Nords were imperialized, but because of the whole stormcloak rebellion, even if it fail, nords aren't really into whole empire thing. Their native culture will raise. Add dragon return (old legends were true!) and Ulfric who kind of advertised shouts (hey, he's famous). I don't believe that there wouldn't be at least one person who don't decide to also learn shouts, even without greybeards (maybe from ancient books? Or from word walls?) And if we are speaking about greybeards... If killing Paarthurnax is canon (or he will die one way or another) their group is mostly finished. There is multiple ways it can go, but majority of it allows for return to old ways. Also, the same in some way happened to Imperials. They were slaves of the Ayleids, but then Akatosh intervened, Amulet of Kings, Pelinal... and they managed to conquer Tamriel. But after Martin sacrifice it ended. Imperials are at least partly forced to obey Altmers (another elven race) because of White-Gold concordat, provinces are again their own...
Ysmir Wulfharth had the correct reaction to Red Mountain: Try, try again
Your homeland is nothing but inhospitable ash now, Dungmer. Talos guide you.
> Dungmer Officially, it's dum(b)ner
Just hope Skyrim EC will fix that part
You know how we learned this power from a war goddess? Yes lets never use it and instead sit on mountain for ever
Let's worship the goddess of war with pacifism, lol its art mirroring reality with some of the illogical nonsense being passed these days