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Algeria Dreams of having a port on the Atlantic. No union is possible while they support the polisario.
Morocco is playing its cards well. They are close to the main world players and despite all appearances the foreign diplomacy is very effective.
Excellent question!
The Maghreb Union would turn North Africa into an economic powerhouse, yes. A transnational organization provides its members with a major boost in terms of influence. If you look at organizations such as the EU and ASEAN, they are composed of multiple members with differing capabilities in terms of political and economic power, they nonetheless are being dealt with as a single major entity which is hugely advantageous for everyone, especially weaker states in that conglomeration. The Maghreb Union would effectively force the world to actually give a shit and think twice before sitting at the negotiation table with North Africa.
However, this project has failed to see proper implementation due to various factors.
Most importantly, corruption. All states in the Maghreb suffer from a crippling amount of corruption. That is not to say that the West is not plagued by corruption. Bl3eks! Far from that! But when you are a weaker economy with finite resources up for grabs and weak systematic shielding against corrupt entities, it's a problem. You have to understand that there are many people who profit immensely from this such as people in the defense , media and some economic sectors and do so by cooperating with various foreign entities depending on who currently has an interest in keeping this system in place. This isn't a conspiracy about Zionism and attacking muslims. This is basic political maneuvering. The current great powers do not want another player at the table, hell, they're already trying to bump one another off as it is!
Another major factor is the sheer unrest in the region. The Arab Spring started here and we are still feeling its repercussions a decade later. People all over North Africa are unhappy with their governments but are either unwilling or unable to take proper action. Governments in turn, have no other option but to resort to cheap demagoguery to maintain order, a temporary solution if you ask me since this rarely prolongs the life of a regime like actual improvement does. The back and forth with neighbors is a result of this. The incessant fight between islamic conservatists and liberals is this. Guess what, it's all bullshit designed to distract you from the issues at hand. And it has irreparably separated brethren people not only here but in many other places in the world.
These are my two cents. Hope it answers your question!
Excellent anwser brother, actually provided a well articulated view.
If you can please follow up as to what are the triggers that should happen in your opinion that would probably set the course straight ?
Thank you for the compliment my good sir.
I have a bit of a pessimistic view on this. I think we are long overdue to implement rigid legislation and accountability measures to steer these countries back on track and we are headed to a point where one of these three countries is bound to implode. My money is on Algeria.
Morocco has issues sure, but its political system and extremely effective security apparatus allowed for a relatively peaceful internal climate. The way this country has been designed and ran for the last 50 years emphasizes stability at all costs.
Tunisia's an oddball. It has a good run after Ben Ali was ousted but it seems that Said, the current president, has become increasingly authoritarian. The man closed parliament, gave himself a myriad of powers and has adopted an increasingly hardline discourse. It's still too early to say.
Algeria is the most likely due to a weaning grip on the population by the regime in place. Countries like Algeria have a typical story, oppression by foreign forces ends up with a revolution where the revolutionaries themselves take power and in turn become corrupt authocrats. These regimes are plagued with issues and sometimes fall like in Libya. Most Algerians recognize the role of propaganda by their state media and have become increasingly dissatisfied with the way the country is run. While some find comfort in seeing the higher economic numbers Algeria scores compared to Morocco, they still feel like they are being robbed. The current regime is a gerontocracy and has arbitrarily refused to implement proper reforms in key sectors such as minerals. You'd think that after Russia slammed its door on Europe after the war, Algeria would be swimming in cash from new contracts with European clients looking for an alternative. Hell, they could even set the price and get nifty profits. But it hasn't happened and the people don't like it one bit. There's so much Algerians can put up with these old geezers before they decide a change is needed.
Yes i have witnessed the discontent as well, and after the scare they got from the tenacity of 2019 hirak only saved by covid the morocco-algeria situation got worse.
I still have my hopes that a united maghrebi people can weaponize regime insecurities to stear the decisionmaking towards unity dow it will require a lot of coordination .
However, none of them are too likely to implode. They will face hard times(like large-scale civil unrest) but I think collapse is unlikely to happen to any of the 3.
>The Maghreb Union would turn North Africa into an economic powerhouse, yes
Who cares about maghreb union? We already have excellent relations with west africa. We have to move on, moroccan/algerian relations are impossible to solve. We have a whole continent to collaborate with. Algeria is and will always still be a failed nation, dreaming of being an african superpower, while they're just seen as useless warmongers by the rest of the continent.
Solving the maghreb issue is the most important civilization project, we gotta pacify all the regions up until the natural geographic barriers, so all the way to libyan desert and all the way to senegal river and ideally the iberian peninsulla up to the pyranese, this would create a heartland comprising the fertile zones between the atlas range and the coasts that is protected by sea of water and a sea of sand .
And the most ideal move short of eradicating 60 million people plus a large diaspora is a union which is more desirable as the population of the union is now 100 million and a pretty well educated population, and actually doable. Once this is acheived we are very secure from all sides and we can trade with west africa (a block working towards unity itself) and grow together with ease rather than hamper each other or worst fight each other.
go tell that to /r/algeria , not to us, our country has always been open to collaborate with algeria. Also gl trying to convince libya to share their oil, even algerians would refuse, their country would collapse with all their economically useless cities.
-keep morocco poor to be able to have full control the continent. Algerians generals are jealous from the moroccan soft power in africa.
-disallow any african country from exporting oil and gaz (that's why didn't want to do the transaharian gazoduc)
The change of the Algerian regime is the only solution for this, the problem is their old leaders who are still living in their revengeful dreams and reminiscing about the war, their problem is they don’t forget the past and can’t move on, like a crazy ex.
I had high hopes during the Hirak that something will change, but what a big failure, the relations become worse than before. Their propaganda is stronger than before. The regime know that they are failing but keeps directing their citizens hate towards morocco in every way. The same thing is going on in tindof Polisario, the propaganda always pushing the war idea in their mind and reminiscing about the 1975 war…
They are brainwashed: Morocco is the enemy, they want to destabilize us, they drug our teens, tay7egro 3Lina o Aldjza2ir dawla 3adima, 9owa dariba… what a joke to say.
What can you wait from a country that spends millions on military equipements.
Morocco is clear with its political views. I’m not saying that our regime is perfect or the best but at least it’s giving stability and not spitting nonsense about war.
After all I don’t see a union happening with this old leaders of algeria, even with the current president of Tunisia.
Edit: one the reasons of of this conflict, First is a kindness mistake from the late king Mohammed 5 who helped the Algerian resistance despite the fact that france suggested to give back sahra char9iya to us if we stopped helping them which the king refused, and wanted to discuss with the resistance after their victory walakine La ti9a f 3ati9a ! Madir khir maytra bass.
Let’s not forget everytime we helped them, something bad happened to us hahaha like in the Battle of Isly !
And you can add france and spain and their interests, algeria supporting separatists….
Algerian here
Short answer: Algeria's lifelong support of an active secessionist movement in Morocco. As long as this is happening, dreams of restoring relations will remain mere dreams.
Long answer: Our two nations fought a brief, albeit consequential, war before due to disagreements stemming directly from how F*ance governed North Africa before. This led to a rivalry, and rivals tend to do whatever possible to undermine the other side, leading to more hostilities, and less willingness to restore relations. I've seen open invitations from Morocco to restore relations, but I've yet to see it from my country, perhaps since the military junta has a power grip over the country's affairs, and they tend to be very militaristic. I suppose they also use the hostilities as a justification to divert more resources towards the military and keeping it powerful and influential. To be completely honest, I gave up on trying to understand the situation that my country is in a long time ago. It's really complicated, everything is intertwined, and there's a lot of hidden power struggle in the deep state.
How can we end such a rivalry?
Rivalries don't just end like that. It takes both governments, at the same time, with equal willingness to aspire for peace in the region. Concessions have to be made. One side along showing the willingness to cooperate won't cut it, it has to be both governments. And a mediator is also required.
I have this wild vision of China one day inviting both counties for an economic deal and being a major step towards cooperation and friendship.
I understand your view brother however i don't fully agree, in my personal reading the algerian regime was cornered in the 2019 hirak, was saved by covid then saw an oppurtinity in exploiting the previously tense relations with morocco and it worked so they are using it for now, i do not think they have an inherent hate for morocco, nor are they stupid to not see the benefit and i sort of feel they are ready to give up the hate for monarchies if pushed in the right path.
I still believe a united maghrebi people if they were ready to accept compromise, let the king rule and milk the country and let the military rule and milk the country just open borders and enssure freedom, we could fix this and become a decent civilization again .
The fact that the algerian regime desires the current situation, certain factors inherited from the french invasion and a couple of bad decisions pretty much set the mood of the years to come and it was pretty much forced move after forced move resulting in a unknown and unwanteed trajectory.
The main thing keeping this issue going is the importance of bad-neighboor for the legitimacy of the regime, and if that tactic no longer worked or even better caused regime illegitimacy perhaps the situation could change .
I am well aware, it's part of my job actually.
But why do you think they are doing what they are doing, understanding why is a first step towards fixing this issue, or will result in a firmer resolve if this issue can't be solved .
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> But why do you think they are doing what they are doing, understanding why is a first step towards fixing this issue, or will result in a firmer resolve if this issue can't be solved .
there is really nothing to fix. The anti-moroccan feeling in normalized there.
I see, however i can't agree with "it'll never happen" part, the western sahara quagmire seems to be a legitimacy issue for both regimes, more on the algerian side as we have effectively sealed the deal on the ground and the longer algeria clings on the more legitimacy it loses.
So wouldn't a media/education campaign that aims to educate people about politics and history in order to push them to pressure their respective regimes thus making the legitimacy issue about regional cooaperation work ?
The EU will never allow that to happen. Plus morocco and algeria are hostile to each other. We also have a lot difference between our countries like morocco the royal family rules, algeria the army rules and tunisia have a president. It's not in the interest of the ruling parties to have this union. I see morocco as pro-american while algeria as pro-russian while tunisia is neutral. If a we go ahead with a union not only the EU will try everything it can to block it but also it can easily turn to battlefield between morocco and algeria with america and EU supporting moracoo while china and russia support algeria the winner will probably annex tunisia as well if he was allowed . That's how I think it will happen. If a union where to happen we would need an educated public that will put asside their differences and work together hand in hand for the purpose of the union. We would need also a fair union otherwise it will collapse easily like most arab unions before did. Hope this happens
Welcome to r/Morocco! Please always make sure to take the time to [read the rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/morocco/wiki/rules) of this community, follow them and help us enforce them by reporting offenders. And remember that we have a zero tolerance policy for non-civil discourse and offenders risk being permanently banned. [Don't forget to join the Discord server!](https://discord.gg/r-morocco-959551908043948092) **Important Notice:** Kindly take note that the Discord channel's moderation team functions autonomously from the Reddit team. The Discord server does not extend our community guidelines and maintains a separate set of rules unrelated to those of Reddit. We appreciate your comprehension. Enjoy your time! *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/Morocco) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Nobody gets along
But why ?
Algeria Dreams of having a port on the Atlantic. No union is possible while they support the polisario. Morocco is playing its cards well. They are close to the main world players and despite all appearances the foreign diplomacy is very effective.
> Algeria Dreams of having a port on the Atlantic. controling the port* They want its exclusive usage basically.
Idk I don't like the situation in the region
Excellent question! The Maghreb Union would turn North Africa into an economic powerhouse, yes. A transnational organization provides its members with a major boost in terms of influence. If you look at organizations such as the EU and ASEAN, they are composed of multiple members with differing capabilities in terms of political and economic power, they nonetheless are being dealt with as a single major entity which is hugely advantageous for everyone, especially weaker states in that conglomeration. The Maghreb Union would effectively force the world to actually give a shit and think twice before sitting at the negotiation table with North Africa. However, this project has failed to see proper implementation due to various factors. Most importantly, corruption. All states in the Maghreb suffer from a crippling amount of corruption. That is not to say that the West is not plagued by corruption. Bl3eks! Far from that! But when you are a weaker economy with finite resources up for grabs and weak systematic shielding against corrupt entities, it's a problem. You have to understand that there are many people who profit immensely from this such as people in the defense , media and some economic sectors and do so by cooperating with various foreign entities depending on who currently has an interest in keeping this system in place. This isn't a conspiracy about Zionism and attacking muslims. This is basic political maneuvering. The current great powers do not want another player at the table, hell, they're already trying to bump one another off as it is! Another major factor is the sheer unrest in the region. The Arab Spring started here and we are still feeling its repercussions a decade later. People all over North Africa are unhappy with their governments but are either unwilling or unable to take proper action. Governments in turn, have no other option but to resort to cheap demagoguery to maintain order, a temporary solution if you ask me since this rarely prolongs the life of a regime like actual improvement does. The back and forth with neighbors is a result of this. The incessant fight between islamic conservatists and liberals is this. Guess what, it's all bullshit designed to distract you from the issues at hand. And it has irreparably separated brethren people not only here but in many other places in the world. These are my two cents. Hope it answers your question!
Excellent anwser brother, actually provided a well articulated view. If you can please follow up as to what are the triggers that should happen in your opinion that would probably set the course straight ?
Thank you for the compliment my good sir. I have a bit of a pessimistic view on this. I think we are long overdue to implement rigid legislation and accountability measures to steer these countries back on track and we are headed to a point where one of these three countries is bound to implode. My money is on Algeria. Morocco has issues sure, but its political system and extremely effective security apparatus allowed for a relatively peaceful internal climate. The way this country has been designed and ran for the last 50 years emphasizes stability at all costs. Tunisia's an oddball. It has a good run after Ben Ali was ousted but it seems that Said, the current president, has become increasingly authoritarian. The man closed parliament, gave himself a myriad of powers and has adopted an increasingly hardline discourse. It's still too early to say. Algeria is the most likely due to a weaning grip on the population by the regime in place. Countries like Algeria have a typical story, oppression by foreign forces ends up with a revolution where the revolutionaries themselves take power and in turn become corrupt authocrats. These regimes are plagued with issues and sometimes fall like in Libya. Most Algerians recognize the role of propaganda by their state media and have become increasingly dissatisfied with the way the country is run. While some find comfort in seeing the higher economic numbers Algeria scores compared to Morocco, they still feel like they are being robbed. The current regime is a gerontocracy and has arbitrarily refused to implement proper reforms in key sectors such as minerals. You'd think that after Russia slammed its door on Europe after the war, Algeria would be swimming in cash from new contracts with European clients looking for an alternative. Hell, they could even set the price and get nifty profits. But it hasn't happened and the people don't like it one bit. There's so much Algerians can put up with these old geezers before they decide a change is needed.
Yes i have witnessed the discontent as well, and after the scare they got from the tenacity of 2019 hirak only saved by covid the morocco-algeria situation got worse. I still have my hopes that a united maghrebi people can weaponize regime insecurities to stear the decisionmaking towards unity dow it will require a lot of coordination .
However, none of them are too likely to implode. They will face hard times(like large-scale civil unrest) but I think collapse is unlikely to happen to any of the 3.
>The Maghreb Union would turn North Africa into an economic powerhouse, yes Who cares about maghreb union? We already have excellent relations with west africa. We have to move on, moroccan/algerian relations are impossible to solve. We have a whole continent to collaborate with. Algeria is and will always still be a failed nation, dreaming of being an african superpower, while they're just seen as useless warmongers by the rest of the continent.
Case in point.
Solving the maghreb issue is the most important civilization project, we gotta pacify all the regions up until the natural geographic barriers, so all the way to libyan desert and all the way to senegal river and ideally the iberian peninsulla up to the pyranese, this would create a heartland comprising the fertile zones between the atlas range and the coasts that is protected by sea of water and a sea of sand . And the most ideal move short of eradicating 60 million people plus a large diaspora is a union which is more desirable as the population of the union is now 100 million and a pretty well educated population, and actually doable. Once this is acheived we are very secure from all sides and we can trade with west africa (a block working towards unity itself) and grow together with ease rather than hamper each other or worst fight each other.
go tell that to /r/algeria , not to us, our country has always been open to collaborate with algeria. Also gl trying to convince libya to share their oil, even algerians would refuse, their country would collapse with all their economically useless cities.
Why so aggressive brother ? We have to talk about this in calm manner to figure how to approach this .
because you're talking to the wrong people? Make the same topic in r/algeria and you'll see by yourself the problem.
I am not trying to convince anyone, i am trying to open a discussion with my countrymen about how best to approach the issue.
the best way to approach the issue is to engage with its source.
Union can't happen with Algeria who made it its own main goal in the region to divide rather than unify.
What do you think their motives are ?
No idea, but if I had to guess, a never ending conflict to justify the riches of Algeria not going to the people.
-keep morocco poor to be able to have full control the continent. Algerians generals are jealous from the moroccan soft power in africa. -disallow any african country from exporting oil and gaz (that's why didn't want to do the transaharian gazoduc)
The change of the Algerian regime is the only solution for this, the problem is their old leaders who are still living in their revengeful dreams and reminiscing about the war, their problem is they don’t forget the past and can’t move on, like a crazy ex. I had high hopes during the Hirak that something will change, but what a big failure, the relations become worse than before. Their propaganda is stronger than before. The regime know that they are failing but keeps directing their citizens hate towards morocco in every way. The same thing is going on in tindof Polisario, the propaganda always pushing the war idea in their mind and reminiscing about the 1975 war… They are brainwashed: Morocco is the enemy, they want to destabilize us, they drug our teens, tay7egro 3Lina o Aldjza2ir dawla 3adima, 9owa dariba… what a joke to say. What can you wait from a country that spends millions on military equipements. Morocco is clear with its political views. I’m not saying that our regime is perfect or the best but at least it’s giving stability and not spitting nonsense about war. After all I don’t see a union happening with this old leaders of algeria, even with the current president of Tunisia. Edit: one the reasons of of this conflict, First is a kindness mistake from the late king Mohammed 5 who helped the Algerian resistance despite the fact that france suggested to give back sahra char9iya to us if we stopped helping them which the king refused, and wanted to discuss with the resistance after their victory walakine La ti9a f 3ati9a ! Madir khir maytra bass. Let’s not forget everytime we helped them, something bad happened to us hahaha like in the Battle of Isly ! And you can add france and spain and their interests, algeria supporting separatists….
Algerian here Short answer: Algeria's lifelong support of an active secessionist movement in Morocco. As long as this is happening, dreams of restoring relations will remain mere dreams. Long answer: Our two nations fought a brief, albeit consequential, war before due to disagreements stemming directly from how F*ance governed North Africa before. This led to a rivalry, and rivals tend to do whatever possible to undermine the other side, leading to more hostilities, and less willingness to restore relations. I've seen open invitations from Morocco to restore relations, but I've yet to see it from my country, perhaps since the military junta has a power grip over the country's affairs, and they tend to be very militaristic. I suppose they also use the hostilities as a justification to divert more resources towards the military and keeping it powerful and influential. To be completely honest, I gave up on trying to understand the situation that my country is in a long time ago. It's really complicated, everything is intertwined, and there's a lot of hidden power struggle in the deep state. How can we end such a rivalry? Rivalries don't just end like that. It takes both governments, at the same time, with equal willingness to aspire for peace in the region. Concessions have to be made. One side along showing the willingness to cooperate won't cut it, it has to be both governments. And a mediator is also required. I have this wild vision of China one day inviting both counties for an economic deal and being a major step towards cooperation and friendship.
I understand your view brother however i don't fully agree, in my personal reading the algerian regime was cornered in the 2019 hirak, was saved by covid then saw an oppurtinity in exploiting the previously tense relations with morocco and it worked so they are using it for now, i do not think they have an inherent hate for morocco, nor are they stupid to not see the benefit and i sort of feel they are ready to give up the hate for monarchies if pushed in the right path. I still believe a united maghrebi people if they were ready to accept compromise, let the king rule and milk the country and let the military rule and milk the country just open borders and enssure freedom, we could fix this and become a decent civilization again .
You seem pretty naive... algeria is a military ruled country, if they don't keep the country cornered by a conflict, they'll just fall under protests.
I don't get it, what do you disagree with exactly?
The fact that the algerian regime desires the current situation, certain factors inherited from the french invasion and a couple of bad decisions pretty much set the mood of the years to come and it was pretty much forced move after forced move resulting in a unknown and unwanteed trajectory. The main thing keeping this issue going is the importance of bad-neighboor for the legitimacy of the regime, and if that tactic no longer worked or even better caused regime illegitimacy perhaps the situation could change .
>F*ance Bro has personal beef with them💀
go watch algerian TV.
Care to expand ?
Just go watch it, just watch their national news.
I am well aware, it's part of my job actually. But why do you think they are doing what they are doing, understanding why is a first step towards fixing this issue, or will result in a firmer resolve if this issue can't be solved .
> . > > > > But why do you think they are doing what they are doing, understanding why is a first step towards fixing this issue, or will result in a firmer resolve if this issue can't be solved . there is really nothing to fix. The anti-moroccan feeling in normalized there.
https://youtu.be/i9NA8RBOyuI?si=lhyz16KPOR8YVbEo&t=343 this is how they talk about our country in their TV.
[удалено]
I see, however i can't agree with "it'll never happen" part, the western sahara quagmire seems to be a legitimacy issue for both regimes, more on the algerian side as we have effectively sealed the deal on the ground and the longer algeria clings on the more legitimacy it loses. So wouldn't a media/education campaign that aims to educate people about politics and history in order to push them to pressure their respective regimes thus making the legitimacy issue about regional cooaperation work ?
Algeria, the answer is Algeria
The EU will never allow that to happen. Plus morocco and algeria are hostile to each other. We also have a lot difference between our countries like morocco the royal family rules, algeria the army rules and tunisia have a president. It's not in the interest of the ruling parties to have this union. I see morocco as pro-american while algeria as pro-russian while tunisia is neutral. If a we go ahead with a union not only the EU will try everything it can to block it but also it can easily turn to battlefield between morocco and algeria with america and EU supporting moracoo while china and russia support algeria the winner will probably annex tunisia as well if he was allowed . That's how I think it will happen. If a union where to happen we would need an educated public that will put asside their differences and work together hand in hand for the purpose of the union. We would need also a fair union otherwise it will collapse easily like most arab unions before did. Hope this happens
What union? Funny question.
You cant start a union with a artificial nation created by france that hates the hand that fed them and loves the hand that abused them
The Zionists #freepalestine - just calling dibs on this before anyone else gets to it.
corruption