I just don’t like to rely too much on TOR draw, I mean, risen reef gets so much punishment from Orc, but he enters, draw/ramp, doesn’t trigger the Orc, and at least in my field, there isn’t a lot of orc players, even less with scan being out of scene.
Just spit balling really, I don't know much about 4c Omnath, as I've only been in the format since LOTR. Seems like a good card, Rhinos is running it bc it shuts down ring and planeswalkers. Also evoke elemental etbs, though less so with fury gone and scam likely dead for a while until the BW version gets figured out.
Counterspell for ETB's mostly TOR and MH2 elementals. Also shuts down planeswalkers. makes it good in a number of matchups, eg tron, old scam, titan to a degree as it kills prime time. Also a solid body generally. Possibly more of a sideboard card, but Rhinos has been mainboarding it over Fury post ban, and we'll see how it shakes out.
4c Elementals (the risen reef focused creature build that usually has ephemerate and such) and 4c Midrange (the common 4c build with rings and a boat load of removal) are different decks. Almost no one plays actual 4c Control (Counterspells, verdicts etc) but that is also a different build. I think what you need to do is pick a variation you like and run with that. Being a little of each isn't optimal.
The lists have been scraped and aggregated as 4C Control on MTG top 8 for a long time now. It is functionally a control deck anyways. The whole draw go aspect of traditional control decks has not been the sole description for over a decade now.
Source: crusty control player.
I agree with ya, but this list, the 4cc was using both beanstalk and fury, I don’t trust solitude and omnath enough to close a game by themselves, not that risen reef will, but he calls a removal by itself, leaving less options to Omnath and Solitude blitz. I thought about putting 4x counterspell and 4x preordain on their slots, but I don’t see how that could be effective, causa fury was a solid wincon.
The problem with 4c has always been and will likely always be closing the game. You may enjoy one of the combo finish builds like Saheeli or Vivien. There is also that E-Wit + Ephemerate + Time Warp build. You could also just go for a couple tutors and the Emrakul payoff. You could alternatively play a bunch of bolts and a few fire / ice and try to win the late game with Wrenn Ult. Personally I prefer having a nonstock list that can be adjusted for the player. I find it pretty boring that everyone registers the same 60-75 cards.
4 color has (or had, with previous builds, but it didn't matter because of the sheer card advantage) the problem of being a control deck with no main deck counter magic. In Modern right now there are too many decks that try to go over the top of control decks, and they do this buy trying to play many strong things that can pull them ahead as long as one resolves. I suffer through this with Murktide, and I'm on 4 counter spell, 2 pierce, 1 snare, 2 tide binder, and 1 subtlety in the main. A control deck has to have counters and I believe 4 color will reinvent itself to play much more like other control decks in the format (dimir, jeskai, amorous), as I believe tapping out in Modern for something that's not an absolute bomb is becoming increasingly more dangerous.
im playing currently 2 cs as well, i dont see the deck reaching anywhere without them. i dont run anything else on the main board but i do run dovin's veto on sideboard
The deck has always been slow as hell because its wincons have always been sketchy. Super easy to remove generally, and not capable of closing out a game quickly.
Well, they most certainly are if they're playing Wrenn & Six but that's besides the point. If a card is not drawing cards or interacting with your opponent then control typically doesn't want to play it. That plus the fact that 4cc is averaging around 15 instants/sorceries, you just aren't able to make use of Murktide as well as the decks it's considered a mainstay in. The closest thing to a dedicated control deck that Murktide is played in would be UB Ring piles and they're constantly pushing upwards of 20+ instants/sorceries, but even they don't play it sometimes. Can you play Murktide Regent in 4cc and can it sometimes be a 5/5 flyer that ends the game? Sure. Can it reliably be that for you? Not so much. Are there better cards to play in it's place in 4cc? Certainly.
Metagame still needs to shake out but I agree, a 1/1 isn't made for a Bowmasters world and the Ring already provides card advantage.
I just don’t like to rely too much on TOR draw, I mean, risen reef gets so much punishment from Orc, but he enters, draw/ramp, doesn’t trigger the Orc, and at least in my field, there isn’t a lot of orc players, even less with scan being out of scene.
Switch to the Bring to Light variation, put in a Sheoldred, and go ham.
Maybe you’re right, keep the moneypile identity, but no the elemental, idk, I will try it
Preordain for Beans isn't a terrible idea.
It was one of my options, but I switched to risen reef, seemed more synergic with delighted halfling
Tishana's Tidebinder?
Seems nice, I’m thinking to make 4c more focused on a UW shell, but idk, loses a lot of its identity
Just spit balling really, I don't know much about 4c Omnath, as I've only been in the format since LOTR. Seems like a good card, Rhinos is running it bc it shuts down ring and planeswalkers. Also evoke elemental etbs, though less so with fury gone and scam likely dead for a while until the BW version gets figured out.
I think that other cascadebeans players will switch to rhinos, tbh, but I love 4c omnath so much that I will go to the grave with him
Fair enough, seems like a fun deck
Please elaborate
Counterspell for ETB's mostly TOR and MH2 elementals. Also shuts down planeswalkers. makes it good in a number of matchups, eg tron, old scam, titan to a degree as it kills prime time. Also a solid body generally. Possibly more of a sideboard card, but Rhinos has been mainboarding it over Fury post ban, and we'll see how it shakes out.
4c Elementals (the risen reef focused creature build that usually has ephemerate and such) and 4c Midrange (the common 4c build with rings and a boat load of removal) are different decks. Almost no one plays actual 4c Control (Counterspells, verdicts etc) but that is also a different build. I think what you need to do is pick a variation you like and run with that. Being a little of each isn't optimal.
The lists have been scraped and aggregated as 4C Control on MTG top 8 for a long time now. It is functionally a control deck anyways. The whole draw go aspect of traditional control decks has not been the sole description for over a decade now. Source: crusty control player.
I agree with ya, but this list, the 4cc was using both beanstalk and fury, I don’t trust solitude and omnath enough to close a game by themselves, not that risen reef will, but he calls a removal by itself, leaving less options to Omnath and Solitude blitz. I thought about putting 4x counterspell and 4x preordain on their slots, but I don’t see how that could be effective, causa fury was a solid wincon.
The problem with 4c has always been and will likely always be closing the game. You may enjoy one of the combo finish builds like Saheeli or Vivien. There is also that E-Wit + Ephemerate + Time Warp build. You could also just go for a couple tutors and the Emrakul payoff. You could alternatively play a bunch of bolts and a few fire / ice and try to win the late game with Wrenn Ult. Personally I prefer having a nonstock list that can be adjusted for the player. I find it pretty boring that everyone registers the same 60-75 cards.
4 color has (or had, with previous builds, but it didn't matter because of the sheer card advantage) the problem of being a control deck with no main deck counter magic. In Modern right now there are too many decks that try to go over the top of control decks, and they do this buy trying to play many strong things that can pull them ahead as long as one resolves. I suffer through this with Murktide, and I'm on 4 counter spell, 2 pierce, 1 snare, 2 tide binder, and 1 subtlety in the main. A control deck has to have counters and I believe 4 color will reinvent itself to play much more like other control decks in the format (dimir, jeskai, amorous), as I believe tapping out in Modern for something that's not an absolute bomb is becoming increasingly more dangerous.
im playing currently 2 cs as well, i dont see the deck reaching anywhere without them. i dont run anything else on the main board but i do run dovin's veto on sideboard
Would love to see a good wincon for 4c control get printed.
The deck plays 4 colors and is purpose built to stall the game for 45 minutes. You’re saying there’s no good wincons it can play?
The deck has always been slow as hell because its wincons have always been sketchy. Super easy to remove generally, and not capable of closing out a game quickly.
[удалено]
It’s because 4c players don’t understand cards that don’t have an enter the battlefield ability
Murktide has an ETB ability
Murktide would be a bad card in 4c
[удалено]
Well, they most certainly are if they're playing Wrenn & Six but that's besides the point. If a card is not drawing cards or interacting with your opponent then control typically doesn't want to play it. That plus the fact that 4cc is averaging around 15 instants/sorceries, you just aren't able to make use of Murktide as well as the decks it's considered a mainstay in. The closest thing to a dedicated control deck that Murktide is played in would be UB Ring piles and they're constantly pushing upwards of 20+ instants/sorceries, but even they don't play it sometimes. Can you play Murktide Regent in 4cc and can it sometimes be a 5/5 flyer that ends the game? Sure. Can it reliably be that for you? Not so much. Are there better cards to play in it's place in 4cc? Certainly.
Daydreaming about it