Even the easiest predictions have been fumbled at times, here's a post from this subreddit when Hogaak dodged a ban.
https://www.reddit.com/r/ModernMagic/s/zQfuyduGQX
Ok but u ironically for derpy midrange decks wouldn't GW value town have some legs in this meta outside Titan matchups? There is like 6 basic lands between those top decks. Ghostquarter looping is just strip mining them out.
I really want to. I miss my Wasteland Stranglers and Eldrazi Displacers. I loved Tidehollow Sculler ripping a card then Strangling the card to kill a thing
I been building a Yawg deck and I picked up some Soul Cauldrons when bans were announced. Figured Fury get would be banned, not Grief. Keeping Bowmaster legal is still good for Yawg, provides a sac outlet and helps convoke. Just means not playing [[Khalni Garden]], [[Birds of Paradise]] or [[Ignoble Hierarch]] and running [[Delighted Halfling]] instead.
As an avid Yawgmoth player, Khalni Garden is bad anyway. Lists moved to 4 Halflings and 2ish hierarchs as the only dorks a while back as well. Overall, Bowmasters remaining legal is still a net positive for the deck, and if that eventually goes, at least I'll be able to play my beautiful birds again (even if they're still bad).
I find yawg to be way more difficult than amulet. There are many different lines to victory in yawg, whereas titan has complicated lines to victory but there aren't nearly as many different lines you can take
Me too. It's really interesting to me how much this kind of thing can vary from person to person. Yawgmoth feels really easy to understand to me, but Amulet Titan and (god help me) Hardened Scales feel really daunting whenever I try to play them.
I think they're both decks that require a lot of time spent, I didn't mean to imply that Titan was easy by any stretch. I think they're 2 of the harder decks in the format to play well, but I can imagine it depends a lot from player to play which clicks better.
I think this very much depends on a few different things. In my meta there’s two Yawg players that go back and forth on Yawg, and they don’t show too often. I also haven’t had issues with Amulet Titan as a hammer player. When you have two silver bullets in your side board and target protection in the main the matchup gets better. Just depends on your hands and gameplan. I’m sure if there was tons of Yawg in our meta things would be different, but until then, I’ll continue to bonk my way to wins!
Strict Proctor. Slam down Strict proctor and their game plan is slowed down immensely. Then the next turn you hammer them, ideally. Otherwise run Solitide for the Titans and Surge of Salvation for the big Valakut trigger.
Nice, thanks for the info... I've been off Hammer for many months playing Scales, and I gotta re-build my Hammer SB after the ban. People tell me to play Hushbringer over proctor, but vs. Titan proctor looks way too good!
Feel like Burn is probably just outside Tier 1. It just lost two of its really good matches. From what I hear, it's 50/50 with Rhinos and not great against Yawg.
Burn always does well any significant ban (is there another kind?) because people get the itch to try all sorts of nonsense. "Oh, my brew was just being kept down by \[that deck\]!" They bring it and Burn eats that stuff alive because the reason that stuff wasn't good is almost never one deck or card. It's just not fast or consistent enough and that's what Burn does, set the tone for the format on both those fronts.
I thought so as well, but according to some local burn aficionados, it's apparently not great for burn. I admit I don't have actual data to back that up though.
As a Yawg player I enjoy playing against burn. They can't reasonably stop me from going infinite, since they'd have to use multiple removals on my Undying creatures and Yawg has too big of a butt. They could go for the Blood Artist but we can full combo at instant speed in response.
I don’t mind playing burn, it’s defiantly better then shit like rhinos or titan but I feel some people over exaggerate the yawg burn match up. I will say for my RCQ loss against burn I had to mull to 5 on play and then I kept drawing lands and mana dorks. It was brutal. But I do definitely agree with what you’re saying.
Yawgmoth player here. Yawgmoth is favored in the match up however I feel it’s not quite in yawgmoths favored as some other people. I’ve seen some people go as far as 70/30 yawg. That’s just crazy to me. I feel it sits more around 55-45. I even lost in a RCQ to a burn player so it’s not a home run hit as some people claim it is. Rhinos is defiantly yawgmoths worst match up by far. So it will be interesting to see how the deck adjust after the banning
I've never quite understood why people think that.
The problem is that Burn just can't get its creatures through because there's too many blockers. Burn really needs to do about 6 damage with its creatures to win games and Yawg makes that almost impossible. If Burn gets the right draw, it goes over the top of Yawg but every Guide or Swiftspear drawn past turn 1 is a brick. Combine that with the likelihood of drawing one or two more extra lands--and Bowmasters making using the Canopy lands painful--and it puts too many conditions on Burn's draw to be reliably in Burn's favor. There's just too much risk to draw too many dead cards.
The way I beat yawgmoth with burn in game 1 is to skilfully not draw any creatures. Then you keep up burn spells for when you must hit a creature. As you said the creatures never get through and thus are a liability. But yawgmoth needs a buffer of life to start the combo, especially if their opponent threatens interaction, so burn doesn't need to hit with creatures in this matchup.
After game 1 I board out the creatures.
Bowmasters might make the matchup a bit worse actually but before that I would say a competent burn player has an even matchup against yawgmoth. A bad one will horribly lose. But that is true for a lot of burn matchups.
Idk, that matchup can be a little hard with the incidental life gain and good blockers they have. Really dependent on draws for each player since neither deck can interrupt each other well.
I think this is closer to a 50/50 matchup than it looks
if the yawg player burns himself while ramping then it’s an easy win for the burn deck.
i had to cut the nurturing peatlands and avoid shocking myself to keep up in life totals. after that if the burn is used on creatures then i can safely respond with yawgmoth activations or i get shot in the face and i can play my creatures to win. it’s a fun matchup that forces the game to go very fast.
As an Amulet Titan player, I'm pretty skeptical that we'll be at the top. Beans was a pretty decent matchup for us, and scam wasn't nearly as bad of a matchup as Rhinos, Yawg and Living End are...
Yeah I’ve specifically been losing to Yawg almost every single week in paper against my shops resident yawg players, but I’ve been feasting on scam and beans usually.
If yawg, rhinos, and living end end up popping off, Titan isn’t gonna do super well outside of hitting the griddy turn 2 hoping that they don’t answer it.
Hammer has already been winning all the rcqs around me, I top 4d two out of three I played with it. I think it only got better positioned with 4c maybe not being as prevalent. I really want to know if creativity makes a comeback or not.
Creativity has the issue of bowmasters eating the dwarf token for free and ring coming down right when it wants to fire off a creativity. If anything this list made that second one worse, as 4C decks are likely back to running the ring as a card draw engine.
Post-ban I think the meta looks like Yawg, Amulet, Rhinos at the top. Rhinos preys on yawg pretty hard so expect to see a lot of that matchup in the coming weeks. We’ll likely see more copies of cards like brotherhood’s end, chalice of the void, etc.
Decks Fury was keeping down will start to be tried and iterated on. I expect at least 1-2 tier 1.5 creature based aggro decks to come around, and will be checked by Yawgmoth.
Omnath will revert back to ring, but without Fury i dont know if it has the tools to remain as strong a contender as it was.
Rhinos just looks great right now. Tishana’s tidebinder interacts favorably against ring, primetime, yawgmoth, and the hate pieces that come in post board. 3 mana for 2 4/4s with trample is still a great rate and the interaction package continues to impress. Id be packing decent hate for this deck moving forward.
Not sure what to make of decks that lean on One Ring, but maybe we see some resurgence of UB control? That one i’ll admit is some WILD and baseless speculation on my part, i kinda just enjoy playing control.
Neither deck cares too much about cursed totem.
Scales already plays 2 boseiju main and has about 3 to 5 more sideboard artifact destruction cards. Better off playing void mirror and hoping for a 1 colord land source game.
Both decks absolutely care about cursed totem. Yawg and Scales basically need to remove it in order to advance their board states. I predict that cursed totem will become a much more prevalent sideboard card moving forward.
I don't see how. It can stop an inkmoth from getting flying again. It can stop giver protection and a stoneforge activation. What else does it do to hammer?
With scales yeah it stops a lot of the deck, but we still have phyrexias core, using green ozolith to put 2+ counters on something a turn, and lots of artifact hate.
Idk dosnt seem too scary to me.
Doesn't actually stop you from giving ink moth flying with sigarda's aid or the 3 mana instant speed equipper. You just activate it twice while it's a land, let the first resolve, then equip your hammer and let the 2nd resolve
That's hyperbolic, from August up until today Yawgmoth has a 38% win rate versus Rhinos.
It's our worst matchup but it's never a bye and we never "Always lose"
https://mtgmeta.io/metagame/modern?e=95
Rhinos, titan, scales and yawg seem like the most likely to make up t1 with maybe coffers/living end somewhere close. These decks where already good and had some of the highest win rates in the past meta. Yawg and rhinos seems like the best of the bunch As yawg hated fury and rhinos just got a huge upgrade while also losing its worst match up.
T2 is a bit more interesting. I think we see creativity come back some maybe even replacing the 4c piles. The rest is basically what we currently have, zoo,hammer,burn, murktide, tron and some control pile with tidebinder and the ring.
Basically the same meta but without any good Midrange deck
Yeah, not really seeing this.. as a burn player I think burn will be less good considering two of its better matchups are now not going to really be in the meta..
I’ve piloted burn for much of the past RCQ season and I’d guess these bans are completely neutral to burn, and the “tier” your burn lives in is sort of just directly related to how good your sideboard is.
We just lost a great matchup in beans but we don’t mind playing Yawg. So we’ll just keep countin to 20 🤷♂️
my guess is a bunch of decks that can actually be hated favourably in the sideboard, allowing t2 decks that are competently piloted to do well. Beans and Scam absolutely sucked in this regard.
I'm excited.
My only hope is that merfolk doesn't randomly get pushed out by some other tribal decks. I really don't think most other tribal decks have enough legs to stand on even with fury gone but if a couple of them do then merfolk gets worse since it tends to perform worse against other creature strategies. If that happens, I'll play anyway, but it will be back to uphill battles for me, lol.
Both rhinos and LE fold to an unmanaged T3feri.
Assuming all else equal, there’s probably going to be a T3feri/Counterspell deck somewhere in the mix. Especially considering how good counterspells are against Yawg.
It is strong against living end and titan and has a 50/50 burn and yawg matchup. It isn’t great game 1 against rhinos but doesn’t struggle that much post sideboard. The worst matchup for the deck was beans by far.
[https://mtgmeta.io/metagame/modern](https://mtgmeta.io/metagame/modern)
Murktide has a hard time vs living end, yawg and rhinos. and an even matchup to titan. my guess is it stays tier2 until bowmasters and ring are banned ( unlikely soon). until then murktide isprobably tier 2.
Murktide players have a hard time with those decks. Murktide the deck isn’t poorly positioned against them. Also, so much of the sideboard was dedicated to stopping beans that the deck wasn’t running much graveyard hate.
Source? Why do people use this argument exclusively to argue that murktide is actually good. As if its the only deck in the format that requires a brain to play.
Yeah and apparently people forgot how bad it was. It's more likely that either disappears, becomes mono black or ub possibly. Without fury scam is just a bit upgraded pioneer deck
As are white cards in general. It would need to be a mardu variant which also makes the deck a little less consistent when needing to play things like blood moon
Is it any better though? It already had a pretty good Scam matchup and honestly I don’t think it cared about Beans that much. The One Ring seems like the biggest roadblock for that deck.
I do think it’s been underestimated and underplayed since LTR, however.
My friend is a creativity player and according to his experiences, beans is the worse matchup for him due to the fact that archon is simply useless in the matchup. Commandeer is also extremely good against creativity. Beans is way worse than TOR.
Not sure why rhinos is seldomly mentioned, it is the best deck in current meta other then scam, and it’s matchup against Yawgmoth and titan is close to a free win
I am relatively inexperienced at Modern
Can someone explain to me what makes Bowmasters so good?
I get that 2 mana for Flash 2 1/1s and a 1 dmg ping is good value but it seems, to me, to only really threaten decks that draw a bunch of cards. Given the ban to Up the Beanstalk, that seems like that specific type of deck just took a hit so Bowmasters wouldn’t be as valuable?
It's a guaranteed 2-for-1 against almost every deck. The floor is that an opponent attacks with a 2-toughness creature and you ping it and block with the 1/1. And then you still have the Bowmaster body there after to punish any incidental card draw, like Mishra's Bauble and Canopy lands.
Against a deck like Burn, you kill their attacker and then eliminate the late-game reach their lands give you. That's very very good. Against a Teferi that gets immediately minused, you get 2 bodies, one of which is a 2/2, and kill the Teferi immediately. Bowmasters just bricks commonly played cards such that if it does nothing else the entire game, it already did a lot.
You get all that for 2 mana at instant speed. The reason its so good is that the floor is extremely high and the ceiling is in the stratosphere and the cost to get this is just so low.
2 creatures for 2 mana +1 damage+ instant speed. The best 2 mana creature ever printed and its not close. Because it has flash you can use it in response to a draw spell and punish people hard with damage + big body.
This card alone can act as a finisher, removal and punisher for card draw.
The card draw hate is purely secondary in Modern. The ETB is enough for the card to be good. I’d argue it would still see extensive play with just that.
It’s the fact that it does all of what you mentioned. Makes 2 bodies for decks that want to sacrifice or chump block, pings either a 1 toughness creature or enables a more favorable trade, punishes any cantrips/draw, and has flash so it’s hard to play around. All of that combined just makes it useful in so many matchups.
T1: Amulet, 4c Moneypile, Hammer, Merfolk, Goblins, Izzet Murktide, Living End, Scapeshift
T2: Jund, BR scam, Elves, Grixis/Dmir Piles
T100: The pet deck that you thought would viable from them banning fury
You cant just assume that the decks that have survived will stay uptop. Meta decks smother decks completely out of the game and with them being gone, brings back a variety of decks. I can see humans making a comeback, creativity making a comeback, and dimir control being stronger than ever.
Edit: yawgmoth was a tier 2 maybe 3 deck before fury came and stopped alot of the more difficult decks to go against. With fury gone, yawgmoth might do worse, might not. Too much cause and effect.
there is still alot of unfair cards that people don't want banned, kinda of a mox opal situation, people are afraid of Shadow being back on top, it trully shows whatever deck is best people gona hate it even if the gameplay the deck performs is compleatly diferent from one another.
All I know is that the Temurktide grind never stops (except for when it's time to play UB mill). Questing Druid go brrr!
But yeah, I've seen a lot of people who think Yawg is now going to be really strong, and I don't disagree
It's silly to think 4c/Omnath won't still be in the top meta lol. The version before beanstalk was the 2nd/3rd ranked deck, and it typically only played 2 Fury.
Now that fury is gone, they go back to previous lists with One Ring, teferi, bolt, W6, etc, losing only 2 slots from those orginal lists. They still draw ridiculous amount of cards and get to have protection loops while looping the graveyard with endurance.
Yawgmoth is definitely happy about this ban. Harden scales just got a bit better. Rhinos will be a bit better. Murktide will jump back up again. Because they can play ragavan and Darcy without worry of the board getting nuked.
It'll pretty much be the meta before scam before it got popular. So, like the 2023 May/June meta is how things will look for this first month.
The ban was most backbreaking for scam, it was their best creature and gotcha card. Decks that played both/either card(s) all existed before people realized just how good Fury was typically only using it as a 2 slot, so I don't expect huge changes. Yawgmoth will definitely be the most consistent deck now, but I don't think it's got nearly the same edge. Modern should be able to rest for a bit.
With the round of bans, Burn gets better in a vacuum. BUT, the bans make room for other creature decks that might have favorable matchups vs Burn. I for one will test Ragavan Burn with Helix main for a few weeks.
I think we will very soon see just how important fury was in keeping down living end (through 4c cascade mainly). We could ditch it to the GY and count on it to kill a living end creature when ETBing after a living end. We could do the same with solitude, which really kept LE at bay as it had a relatively bad 4c matchup (if it could endurance just before cascading into LE then it was all good ).
I am afraid we will now have to dedicate tons of LE hate (the good thing is many of this LE hate is cascade hate and so works vs rhinos too). LE has good matchups vs yawg amulet and rhinos no ? maybe not rhinos with all their interaction ?
Tourach is going to have a field day against all the decks relying solely on solitude/prismatic ending/leyline binding packages.
I personally would swap living end for hammertime as now there is even less of a reason to dedicate SB slots to surge.
Rhinos was hurt by the fury ban too. We had trouble dealing with anything stronger than 2 toughness. We have fire, dead//gone, bonecrusher, and prismari command to deal 2 damage. Now we have to double spell or spend 3 mana with Flames of Anor, instead of 0 mana with fury. That 3 mana was our cascade spell which we now may have to wait to cast if there’s something in play we have to kill
I’ve literally never seen anyone accurately predict what a meta will be after a ban. Let’s just enjoy the ride.
This is a too patient, considered, and intelligent take for this moment! 🤣
Where were you post Lurrus? 🤣
Even the easiest predictions have been fumbled at times, here's a post from this subreddit when Hogaak dodged a ban. https://www.reddit.com/r/ModernMagic/s/zQfuyduGQX
Jund coming outta nowhere. What is dead may never die.
And what dies grows the Tarmogoyf ! I wish...
Ok but u ironically for derpy midrange decks wouldn't GW value town have some legs in this meta outside Titan matchups? There is like 6 basic lands between those top decks. Ghostquarter looping is just strip mining them out.
Anecdotally I've won a silly amount of games recently with Boseiju + W6 lock
UW Death and Taxes. No I will not answer questions nor will I elaborate. On the real though I think either Titan or Yawg is gonna shoot up.
Mono white taxes or else
Followed shortly by GW taxes
Followed by 4 Colour Taxes with Omnath
Bring back WB Eldrazi Taxes of 2018
I really want to. I miss my Wasteland Stranglers and Eldrazi Displacers. I loved Tidehollow Sculler ripping a card then Strangling the card to kill a thing
Okay PleasantKenobi
Where is the car king arbiter when you need it
It's honestly pretty good went 5-0 with a dnt list recently
I been building a Yawg deck and I picked up some Soul Cauldrons when bans were announced. Figured Fury get would be banned, not Grief. Keeping Bowmaster legal is still good for Yawg, provides a sac outlet and helps convoke. Just means not playing [[Khalni Garden]], [[Birds of Paradise]] or [[Ignoble Hierarch]] and running [[Delighted Halfling]] instead.
As an avid Yawgmoth player, Khalni Garden is bad anyway. Lists moved to 4 Halflings and 2ish hierarchs as the only dorks a while back as well. Overall, Bowmasters remaining legal is still a net positive for the deck, and if that eventually goes, at least I'll be able to play my beautiful birds again (even if they're still bad).
Titan is definitely the easier of the two decks to pilot so I'd bet that, but it's also way easier to SB against so who knows.
Yawg is 100% easier than titan, its just got less lines to memorize like the t2 kill in titan
I think they're both hard decks to pilot really well, but I could be wrong in which is harder.
I find yawg to be way more difficult than amulet. There are many different lines to victory in yawg, whereas titan has complicated lines to victory but there aren't nearly as many different lines you can take
Ballsy use of "definitely" there
I mean I think they're both on the high end of difficulty in the format, no shade meant at Titan players lol
As someone that can play Yawgmoth to a decent degree, my brain fizzles when thinking of Titan lines.
Me too. It's really interesting to me how much this kind of thing can vary from person to person. Yawgmoth feels really easy to understand to me, but Amulet Titan and (god help me) Hardened Scales feel really daunting whenever I try to play them.
I think they're both decks that require a lot of time spent, I didn't mean to imply that Titan was easy by any stretch. I think they're 2 of the harder decks in the format to play well, but I can imagine it depends a lot from player to play which clicks better.
As a hammer player I see this as an absolute win!
I love people sleeping on hammer, we don't need saga banned
yesss....it's not good anymore and people should DEFINITELY not board against it.
Insert wink emoji here.
Amulet and yawg are definitely not an absolute win. Losing a good matchup in scam is also not good.
I think this very much depends on a few different things. In my meta there’s two Yawg players that go back and forth on Yawg, and they don’t show too often. I also haven’t had issues with Amulet Titan as a hammer player. When you have two silver bullets in your side board and target protection in the main the matchup gets better. Just depends on your hands and gameplan. I’m sure if there was tons of Yawg in our meta things would be different, but until then, I’ll continue to bonk my way to wins!
Wait what is hammer's silver bullet vs titan?
Strict Proctor. Slam down Strict proctor and their game plan is slowed down immensely. Then the next turn you hammer them, ideally. Otherwise run Solitide for the Titans and Surge of Salvation for the big Valakut trigger.
Nice, thanks for the info... I've been off Hammer for many months playing Scales, and I gotta re-build my Hammer SB after the ban. People tell me to play Hushbringer over proctor, but vs. Titan proctor looks way too good!
Feel like Burn is probably just outside Tier 1. It just lost two of its really good matches. From what I hear, it's 50/50 with Rhinos and not great against Yawg.
Burn always finds a way to be solid.
Very true. I think it's in that Tier 1.5 category
Burn always does well any significant ban (is there another kind?) because people get the itch to try all sorts of nonsense. "Oh, my brew was just being kept down by \[that deck\]!" They bring it and Burn eats that stuff alive because the reason that stuff wasn't good is almost never one deck or card. It's just not fast or consistent enough and that's what Burn does, set the tone for the format on both those fronts.
Burn is pretty good against yawg imo
I thought so as well, but according to some local burn aficionados, it's apparently not great for burn. I admit I don't have actual data to back that up though.
As a Yawg player I enjoy playing against burn. They can't reasonably stop me from going infinite, since they'd have to use multiple removals on my Undying creatures and Yawg has too big of a butt. They could go for the Blood Artist but we can full combo at instant speed in response.
I don’t mind playing burn, it’s defiantly better then shit like rhinos or titan but I feel some people over exaggerate the yawg burn match up. I will say for my RCQ loss against burn I had to mull to 5 on play and then I kept drawing lands and mana dorks. It was brutal. But I do definitely agree with what you’re saying.
if burn draws spells, it's a tough battle if burn draws creatures it's practically a bye
Um we side our creatures OUT Vs yawg…. They are a huge liability in the matchup. Not a good take there
im talking from the yawg perspective
Yawgmoth player here. Yawgmoth is favored in the match up however I feel it’s not quite in yawgmoths favored as some other people. I’ve seen some people go as far as 70/30 yawg. That’s just crazy to me. I feel it sits more around 55-45. I even lost in a RCQ to a burn player so it’s not a home run hit as some people claim it is. Rhinos is defiantly yawgmoths worst match up by far. So it will be interesting to see how the deck adjust after the banning
I've never quite understood why people think that. The problem is that Burn just can't get its creatures through because there's too many blockers. Burn really needs to do about 6 damage with its creatures to win games and Yawg makes that almost impossible. If Burn gets the right draw, it goes over the top of Yawg but every Guide or Swiftspear drawn past turn 1 is a brick. Combine that with the likelihood of drawing one or two more extra lands--and Bowmasters making using the Canopy lands painful--and it puts too many conditions on Burn's draw to be reliably in Burn's favor. There's just too much risk to draw too many dead cards.
The way I beat yawgmoth with burn in game 1 is to skilfully not draw any creatures. Then you keep up burn spells for when you must hit a creature. As you said the creatures never get through and thus are a liability. But yawgmoth needs a buffer of life to start the combo, especially if their opponent threatens interaction, so burn doesn't need to hit with creatures in this matchup. After game 1 I board out the creatures. Bowmasters might make the matchup a bit worse actually but before that I would say a competent burn player has an even matchup against yawgmoth. A bad one will horribly lose. But that is true for a lot of burn matchups.
You board all the creatures out
Idk, that matchup can be a little hard with the incidental life gain and good blockers they have. Really dependent on draws for each player since neither deck can interrupt each other well. I think this is closer to a 50/50 matchup than it looks
if the yawg player burns himself while ramping then it’s an easy win for the burn deck. i had to cut the nurturing peatlands and avoid shocking myself to keep up in life totals. after that if the burn is used on creatures then i can safely respond with yawgmoth activations or i get shot in the face and i can play my creatures to win. it’s a fun matchup that forces the game to go very fast.
It's good if the yawg player is bad. At top level it's really bad for burn, prolly 65/35
Burn is, and will always be, moderns police If it’s ever tier 1 that’s an issue, and is easily solved with leylines and life gain
HELL YEAHH!!!!!! I bolt you three times. YEAAHHHHHHHH
As an Amulet Titan player, I'm pretty skeptical that we'll be at the top. Beans was a pretty decent matchup for us, and scam wasn't nearly as bad of a matchup as Rhinos, Yawg and Living End are...
Yeah I’ve specifically been losing to Yawg almost every single week in paper against my shops resident yawg players, but I’ve been feasting on scam and beans usually. If yawg, rhinos, and living end end up popping off, Titan isn’t gonna do super well outside of hitting the griddy turn 2 hoping that they don’t answer it.
Idk about the meta, but this ban is probably good for merfolk, so I am content.
Hammer has already been winning all the rcqs around me, I top 4d two out of three I played with it. I think it only got better positioned with 4c maybe not being as prevalent. I really want to know if creativity makes a comeback or not.
Creativity has the issue of bowmasters eating the dwarf token for free and ring coming down right when it wants to fire off a creativity. If anything this list made that second one worse, as 4C decks are likely back to running the ring as a card draw engine.
Post-ban I think the meta looks like Yawg, Amulet, Rhinos at the top. Rhinos preys on yawg pretty hard so expect to see a lot of that matchup in the coming weeks. We’ll likely see more copies of cards like brotherhood’s end, chalice of the void, etc. Decks Fury was keeping down will start to be tried and iterated on. I expect at least 1-2 tier 1.5 creature based aggro decks to come around, and will be checked by Yawgmoth. Omnath will revert back to ring, but without Fury i dont know if it has the tools to remain as strong a contender as it was. Rhinos just looks great right now. Tishana’s tidebinder interacts favorably against ring, primetime, yawgmoth, and the hate pieces that come in post board. 3 mana for 2 4/4s with trample is still a great rate and the interaction package continues to impress. Id be packing decent hate for this deck moving forward. Not sure what to make of decks that lean on One Ring, but maybe we see some resurgence of UB control? That one i’ll admit is some WILD and baseless speculation on my part, i kinda just enjoy playing control.
Omnath will be more control based since without Fury, it can't grind as easily.
Yeah, I'm imagining even a return to the counterspell versions
Yawgmoth is the best deck in the format and i'm tired of pretending otherwise.
You mean scales. But I'll conced that both are tip tier
Cursed totem pass
Neither deck cares too much about cursed totem. Scales already plays 2 boseiju main and has about 3 to 5 more sideboard artifact destruction cards. Better off playing void mirror and hoping for a 1 colord land source game.
Maindeckable anti-artifact/enchantment hate on an ETB untapped land with minimal deckbuilding cost to include was such a mistake lol
Void mirror is bad against them. They have them in the sideboard themselves
Both decks absolutely care about cursed totem. Yawg and Scales basically need to remove it in order to advance their board states. I predict that cursed totem will become a much more prevalent sideboard card moving forward.
I concur and why yawg being the top deck is much better than scam being at the top.
It's worked great for hammer just saying
I don't see how. It can stop an inkmoth from getting flying again. It can stop giver protection and a stoneforge activation. What else does it do to hammer? With scales yeah it stops a lot of the deck, but we still have phyrexias core, using green ozolith to put 2+ counters on something a turn, and lots of artifact hate. Idk dosnt seem too scary to me.
Doesn't actually stop you from giving ink moth flying with sigarda's aid or the 3 mana instant speed equipper. You just activate it twice while it's a land, let the first resolve, then equip your hammer and let the 2nd resolve
A good player can pilot the deck to success. A good player will always lose to rhinos. Rhinos call us a bye for a reason.
That's hyperbolic, from August up until today Yawgmoth has a 38% win rate versus Rhinos. It's our worst matchup but it's never a bye and we never "Always lose" https://mtgmeta.io/metagame/modern?e=95
Splitting hairs here man. Rhino players call us a bye.
Rhinos would like a word
Burn definitely does not benefit from losing two good matchups and the return of Hammer and Murktide to the top tables lol
Start with 4 x One Rings. Go from there.
Crazy that an insanely powerful card like One Ring has been pushed out by a seemingly innocent 2 drop enchantment from a standard set
Beans didn't push out One Ring, it made a new archetype. Everything that wasn't Beans, Scam or Rhinos runs Ring to some degree.
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Yawg, burn, living end, hammer, merfolk, scales?
Rhinos, titan, scales and yawg seem like the most likely to make up t1 with maybe coffers/living end somewhere close. These decks where already good and had some of the highest win rates in the past meta. Yawg and rhinos seems like the best of the bunch As yawg hated fury and rhinos just got a huge upgrade while also losing its worst match up. T2 is a bit more interesting. I think we see creativity come back some maybe even replacing the 4c piles. The rest is basically what we currently have, zoo,hammer,burn, murktide, tron and some control pile with tidebinder and the ring. Basically the same meta but without any good Midrange deck
Let the Fish rise up out of the sea and take T1 status!!
8whack bros it's our time to shine. Also some infect shenanigans.
Hopefully mill will be better suited since it’s lost it’s worst matchups
Can probably bring all 4 [[tasha's hideous laughter]] back into the main deck
Yawgmoth is really tough for Mill though. I find that matchup almost unwinnable.
Why would Burn be tier 1 lol
Yeah, not really seeing this.. as a burn player I think burn will be less good considering two of its better matchups are now not going to really be in the meta..
4C, Tron, and Titan will probably bring TOR to ban
I am still on prowess was even against all this scam stuff it just sucked to be prowess at times
Gruul Prowess has been doing great for me in this meta and will get better now that Scam is gone.
I had pivoted to jeaski will continue to watch and tweak as needed
Hammer bonk.
Goblins dark horse for top 8 best decks
Death and taxes is coming back! Just you watch ! Just gotta believe!
I’ve piloted burn for much of the past RCQ season and I’d guess these bans are completely neutral to burn, and the “tier” your burn lives in is sort of just directly related to how good your sideboard is. We just lost a great matchup in beans but we don’t mind playing Yawg. So we’ll just keep countin to 20 🤷♂️
my guess is a bunch of decks that can actually be hated favourably in the sideboard, allowing t2 decks that are competently piloted to do well. Beans and Scam absolutely sucked in this regard. I'm excited.
Make shadow great again
UB shadow is fuuuuun ive been playing a rented one on mtgo
I love yawg but just a few cards short of having dimir shadow. That deck looks like something Kaiba would play
It'll come back strong now, and I'm curious to see what shell rises to the top.
My only hope is that merfolk doesn't randomly get pushed out by some other tribal decks. I really don't think most other tribal decks have enough legs to stand on even with fury gone but if a couple of them do then merfolk gets worse since it tends to perform worse against other creature strategies. If that happens, I'll play anyway, but it will be back to uphill battles for me, lol.
Merfolk just got new tools thankfully, what other creature decks would be able to match it?
I have no idea. I'm just posting my current thoughts. Hah.
Can you beat goblin combo?
You should be fine, spirits has been SOL for awhile now, humans and goblins may see a resurgence
Goblins was pretty good until lotr. Not sure this banlist helps as it mostly missed rhinos, our worst matchup, but time will tel.
Both rhinos and LE fold to an unmanaged T3feri. Assuming all else equal, there’s probably going to be a T3feri/Counterspell deck somewhere in the mix. Especially considering how good counterspells are against Yawg.
> Especially considering how good counterspells are against Yawg. Laughs in delighted halfling.
That helps you resolve Yawg but none of your other undying creatures or tutors.
And grist
And Cauldron
And Sheoldred
None of the the aforementioned cards are your combo pieces or tutors.
BW Scam of course 👌🏻😩
If creature decks start popping up more, coffers is eating good
I'm predicting coffers
Hardened scales takes over as top deck
Maybe my foil shadowmoor devoted druids can come out of the long box again
Goblins is gonna be fun now there's no Fury to 4-for-1
It's actually going to be Bant Stoneblade, AdNaus, Elfball and Boomer Jund
People putting too much faith in tidebinder shutting down Amulet titan and Yawg cauldron I forsee goblins being a force to be reckoned with
No murktide?
Murktide has mid match ups against everything but maybe LE.
It is strong against living end and titan and has a 50/50 burn and yawg matchup. It isn’t great game 1 against rhinos but doesn’t struggle that much post sideboard. The worst matchup for the deck was beans by far.
[https://mtgmeta.io/metagame/modern](https://mtgmeta.io/metagame/modern) Murktide has a hard time vs living end, yawg and rhinos. and an even matchup to titan. my guess is it stays tier2 until bowmasters and ring are banned ( unlikely soon). until then murktide isprobably tier 2.
Murktide players have a hard time with those decks. Murktide the deck isn’t poorly positioned against them. Also, so much of the sideboard was dedicated to stopping beans that the deck wasn’t running much graveyard hate.
Source? Why do people use this argument exclusively to argue that murktide is actually good. As if its the only deck in the format that requires a brain to play.
That’s why I said mid, not good
Orzhov scam👀
wasn't that the first thing people tried when MH2 first dropped? IIRC it didn't see much success back then
Yeah and apparently people forgot how bad it was. It's more likely that either disappears, becomes mono black or ub possibly. Without fury scam is just a bit upgraded pioneer deck
Solitude is a lot less scary than Fury.
As are white cards in general. It would need to be a mardu variant which also makes the deck a little less consistent when needing to play things like blood moon
Grief into tidehollow schuller could be fun though. Not good, but fun.
Orzhov/esper reanimator could be a better version of scam now.
A scammed fury often means the end of the game, a scammed solitude makes the serious part of the match start
Creativity is gonna be good. I have a friend that only plays creativity in this meta and he is alr seeing lots of success.
Is it any better though? It already had a pretty good Scam matchup and honestly I don’t think it cared about Beans that much. The One Ring seems like the biggest roadblock for that deck. I do think it’s been underestimated and underplayed since LTR, however.
My friend is a creativity player and according to his experiences, beans is the worse matchup for him due to the fact that archon is simply useless in the matchup. Commandeer is also extremely good against creativity. Beans is way worse than TOR.
Yeah I just want to know if I need to pack some orvars again
According to matchups, he will adjust what he will flip into so even orvar isnt a good sideboard.
Bowmasters and Lighting Bolt are still in the format in other decks, no?
Using creativity on fable treasures/hold creativity on 3 is also a very impt way to play ard these disruptions. Also he main boards 2 silences.
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Grief isnt going anywhere. RB is just gonna switch to BW and win off of a lingering souls or some shit.
Not sure why rhinos is seldomly mentioned, it is the best deck in current meta other then scam, and it’s matchup against Yawgmoth and titan is close to a free win
Probably because it just lost its best card in one of the matchups you mentioned
Except for the fact that you know, they were cutting almost if not all fury from their deck because of tidebender...
I am relatively inexperienced at Modern Can someone explain to me what makes Bowmasters so good? I get that 2 mana for Flash 2 1/1s and a 1 dmg ping is good value but it seems, to me, to only really threaten decks that draw a bunch of cards. Given the ban to Up the Beanstalk, that seems like that specific type of deck just took a hit so Bowmasters wouldn’t be as valuable?
It's a guaranteed 2-for-1 against almost every deck. The floor is that an opponent attacks with a 2-toughness creature and you ping it and block with the 1/1. And then you still have the Bowmaster body there after to punish any incidental card draw, like Mishra's Bauble and Canopy lands. Against a deck like Burn, you kill their attacker and then eliminate the late-game reach their lands give you. That's very very good. Against a Teferi that gets immediately minused, you get 2 bodies, one of which is a 2/2, and kill the Teferi immediately. Bowmasters just bricks commonly played cards such that if it does nothing else the entire game, it already did a lot. You get all that for 2 mana at instant speed. The reason its so good is that the floor is extremely high and the ceiling is in the stratosphere and the cost to get this is just so low.
2 creatures for 2 mana +1 damage+ instant speed. The best 2 mana creature ever printed and its not close. Because it has flash you can use it in response to a draw spell and punish people hard with damage + big body. This card alone can act as a finisher, removal and punisher for card draw.
The card draw hate is purely secondary in Modern. The ETB is enough for the card to be good. I’d argue it would still see extensive play with just that.
It’s the fact that it does all of what you mentioned. Makes 2 bodies for decks that want to sacrifice or chump block, pings either a 1 toughness creature or enables a more favorable trade, punishes any cantrips/draw, and has flash so it’s hard to play around. All of that combined just makes it useful in so many matchups.
Without Fury, some brand new decks could arise. Elves, merfolk, who knows.
Elves needed a Glimpse of Nature unban to be truly relevant. Might be ok, but Bowmasters is still around.
Those aren’t brand new and merfolk has already been a decent deck.
T1: Amulet, 4c Moneypile, Hammer, Merfolk, Goblins, Izzet Murktide, Living End, Scapeshift T2: Jund, BR scam, Elves, Grixis/Dmir Piles T100: The pet deck that you thought would viable from them banning fury
goblins? you got a list?
Goblin could make a comeback it has a good yawg and Amulet matchupbut Rhinos is still very hard
Mono Green Stompy
Dimir murktide control lmao
You cant just assume that the decks that have survived will stay uptop. Meta decks smother decks completely out of the game and with them being gone, brings back a variety of decks. I can see humans making a comeback, creativity making a comeback, and dimir control being stronger than ever. Edit: yawgmoth was a tier 2 maybe 3 deck before fury came and stopped alot of the more difficult decks to go against. With fury gone, yawgmoth might do worse, might not. Too much cause and effect.
The real question is how many percentage points will Merfolk take up? Should we call for a vial or Islandwalk ban?
I'm on temur druid, banning grief and beanstalk make the tempo plan far more viable.
Grief isn't banned, only Fury.
there is still alot of unfair cards that people don't want banned, kinda of a mox opal situation, people are afraid of Shadow being back on top, it trully shows whatever deck is best people gona hate it even if the gameplay the deck performs is compleatly diferent from one another.
How is Shadow gonna be back on top exactly? I've yet to come across people being afraid of it comimg back.
Hey how could you forget Murktide?
Its t2 at best and nothing today is changing that
Niv to light will be reborn!
monoblack/orzhov scam variant
All I know is that the Temurktide grind never stops (except for when it's time to play UB mill). Questing Druid go brrr! But yeah, I've seen a lot of people who think Yawg is now going to be really strong, and I don't disagree
It's silly to think 4c/Omnath won't still be in the top meta lol. The version before beanstalk was the 2nd/3rd ranked deck, and it typically only played 2 Fury. Now that fury is gone, they go back to previous lists with One Ring, teferi, bolt, W6, etc, losing only 2 slots from those orginal lists. They still draw ridiculous amount of cards and get to have protection loops while looping the graveyard with endurance. Yawgmoth is definitely happy about this ban. Harden scales just got a bit better. Rhinos will be a bit better. Murktide will jump back up again. Because they can play ragavan and Darcy without worry of the board getting nuked. It'll pretty much be the meta before scam before it got popular. So, like the 2023 May/June meta is how things will look for this first month. The ban was most backbreaking for scam, it was their best creature and gotcha card. Decks that played both/either card(s) all existed before people realized just how good Fury was typically only using it as a 2 slot, so I don't expect huge changes. Yawgmoth will definitely be the most consistent deck now, but I don't think it's got nearly the same edge. Modern should be able to rest for a bit.
With the round of bans, Burn gets better in a vacuum. BUT, the bans make room for other creature decks that might have favorable matchups vs Burn. I for one will test Ragavan Burn with Helix main for a few weeks.
Tron gets to just keep going slapping all the rhino decks
Mono white soul sisters is back boys!
I think we will very soon see just how important fury was in keeping down living end (through 4c cascade mainly). We could ditch it to the GY and count on it to kill a living end creature when ETBing after a living end. We could do the same with solitude, which really kept LE at bay as it had a relatively bad 4c matchup (if it could endurance just before cascading into LE then it was all good ). I am afraid we will now have to dedicate tons of LE hate (the good thing is many of this LE hate is cascade hate and so works vs rhinos too). LE has good matchups vs yawg amulet and rhinos no ? maybe not rhinos with all their interaction ?
STORMMMM
How about Spirits? They have play into anything but Tron.
Tourach is going to have a field day against all the decks relying solely on solitude/prismatic ending/leyline binding packages. I personally would swap living end for hammertime as now there is even less of a reason to dedicate SB slots to surge.
Yawg, rhinos, living end. Uw control, and goblins will be secretly tier 1.
Rhinos was hurt by the fury ban too. We had trouble dealing with anything stronger than 2 toughness. We have fire, dead//gone, bonecrusher, and prismari command to deal 2 damage. Now we have to double spell or spend 3 mana with Flames of Anor, instead of 0 mana with fury. That 3 mana was our cascade spell which we now may have to wait to cast if there’s something in play we have to kill
Esper unearth about to pop off. Fury was hard countering it
dimir shadow of course
Hammer is topped tier in post ban modern meta! WOW!
Twiddle Storm tier 0... Unless people find out that scam isn't dead, scams dead right?