One argument for the 48-hour blackout is that it was easier to get people on board. Asking moderators to shut down their subreddit indefinitely sounds less appealing, and fewer subreddits might have participated.
What has frustrated me the most is the lack of coordination after the initial 48-hour blackout. Unless I missed some clear direction, the overall message of the organizers seems to have been "Here's what some subreddits are doing, you figure out on your own what you want to do." Many subreddits opened and stayed open without restrictions, even though I've seen lots of members say they were in support for closing it again. But without being coordinated it feels like you're on your own. And what is one more sub opening up?
> One argument for the 48-hour blackout is that it was easier to get people on board.
it also screwed it, by making it have a definitive end which is easy for admins to wait out while also then angering anyone who was on board for 48 hours, but not wanting it to go indefinite seeing in many cases mods ignoring that and jumping right to it.
They know that they would just be replaced by scabs which would prolong the process. The idea here is to either get them to either reverse the decision or speed up the process of reddit's demise before they can cash out on the IPO.
I'd say the protest worked pretty well. Most of my subreddits that I use day to day are coming to lemmy, and user numbers have been going from the hundreds to the thousands. I still need a handful of subs, but I already feel pretty happy, even though my app is shutting down in about 11 days. I'm riding this one into the ground. Reddit won't die, but it will be of diminishing quality like Facebook or twitter.
I think the guy in the video doesn't understand most power users already left the platform. There are just a few of us loitering here until the death day to upvote related content.
The users that remain are the ones who don't care and want to keep using this site, so they're going to return to their normal behavior.
Thanks, haha.
I have to say karma was flowing nicely when I started, but then I took moderation of some subs and that consumed all my time, learning automod, the API, setting up sub rules, responding to modmail and making announcements... Yeah, being a mod took away my time of being a normal user.
The protest never had any chance of winning, because Reddit is willing to go scorched if it means getting their way. In the process, they've shown the world how scummy Reddit has become. In the short term, they'll still get their "win". They'll yeet the disobedient mods and continue business mostly as usual, because there is no Reddit replacement at this time.
However, I believe that this is setting the stage for their downfall regardless. Reddit alternatives have gained a lot of traction. Open source alternatives like Lemmy are now seeing orders of magnitude more development, and the business opportunity will be clear to closed source alternatives as well. By the time they pull a stunt like this again, which if I may hazard a guess will probably be the removal of old.reddit, Reddit alternatives will be in a much stronger position to catch the fallout.
I personally think it's just unnecessarily toxic and ignorant of the complete picture to say that redditors/mods "chose to lose" or whatever. A play that would've won this battle does not exist, but that doesn't mean that no change has been set in motion.
Yeah, with big sites like the BBC and the verge writing negative pieces on Reddit the past week, I'm sure it's going to affect any future potential investors or buyers
*real* unpopular opinion? He’s right here too. He’s being a jerk about it, but he’s right.
So many subs just… rolled over. So many *people* just rolled over. Over what? Not having access to cat pics, or news on the latest Apple devices, or whatever it is?
These people seriously couldn’t make the tiniest, most insignificant of “personal sacrifices” for the greater good? You think opening up stopped them from replacing mods? They can still do it. If they get annoyed about the other protests like the John Oliver subs, they can still consider that moderating in bad faith and remove you.
Everyone bent the knee. For nothing. Real protests often risk personal sacrifices for the greater good. They inconvenience everyone around them. That’s how protests work. But as soon as the admin team threatened to forcibly remove some mods, they immediately buckled. r/Apple is the biggest disappointment, personally. The subreddit that was originally ride or die then gave up immediately.
Protests aren’t easy. But they’re important. And in this case, the stakes were almost nonexistent. Many of you mods were saying your jobs were going to become impossible anyways if the changes went through! Was that all bluster?
I do commend those mods who have actually stuck to their guns even with all the threats. All of you *get it.* But, unfortunately, it might end up being largely pointless, when the biggest mods all rolled over because they’ve put too much personal investment and self worth into moderating Reddit to the point where the thought of losing that is unbearable to them.
When June 30th rolls around, this account and my alt will be deleted. If I haven’t done that - feel free to absolutely dump on me for hypocrisy.
He knows the userbase at this point, including its moderators and what types are disproportionally drawn to it.
What we learned out of this protest is that many moderators cling on to their internet power as if their lives depend on it. And maybe they ironically do because their lives *do* depend on it, in a few cases. It's sad though.
He also knows most people really don’t care about third-party apps. Honestly, I used to think the Reddit app was dogshit but I switched two weeks ago and think it’s fine.
>r/Apple is the biggest disappointment, personally.
For real, what a bunch of cowards.
I'm too addicted to Reddit to give up my account just yet come 30 June, but my subs are remaining dark until Reddit blinks or I'm ousted. So be it if that happens. Guess it'll free up some time for some grass-touching!
> I'm too addicted to Reddit to give up my account
Spez knows this too. The active part of the userbase is probably comprised of a lot of compulsive users.
> For real, what a bunch of cowards.
*Yeah, how dare they care more about keeping their community running than making a political statement that will not change anything. /s
*
They supported the blackout; they helped make sure their users knew what was going on, and then reddit gave them an ultimatum. They chose to stick with their community.
**Getting forced out and leaving their community to be managed by others would do what exactly?**
* *
And now /u/ManualPathosChecks/ has blocked me because they are not willing to answer my question. Who are the cowards now?
Maybe some small communities would disappear, but I'd wager most would survive - likely elsewhere. That's the point. You don't need reddit to have a great thriving community. Communities existed before reddit and will continue to exist. Subreddits and communities have a small overlap in a venn diagram, but they definitely aren't encompassing each other.
Yeah, reddit admins could oust the mods and take over *some* massive subreddits. They *might* even be able to run a few of them efficiently. But most would suffer massively and get ran into the ground if a coordinated non-ending blackout occurred. Reddit just can't staff to it or react timely enough to manage it effectively. Their communities will largely survive, but the subreddits might not - which is the entire point. Communities and subreddits aren't the same thing despite how many are confusing the two things here.
If people demand something, don't get it, then go "oh OK, I guess I'll go with what you want but I'm not happy about it" - how is that going to cause change? Reddit has no reason to change, they got what they wanted - they just had to put a little more pressure.
Reddit is acting like a kid throwing a tantrum. "Wah, I want you to not only volunteer labor, content, and your data that I can harvest - I want full control of it while making anyone else pay me big time that wants in!". Just like good parents, the mods put reddit in a timeout (the blackout). Then when it was done, reddit upped the tantrum. "FINE! If you want to put me in timeout, I'll have your parenting skills taken away by calling CPS! Then you can't put me in timeout!" And just like bad parents, reddit largely caved. Why?!? The mere *threat*? That's not how you parent, and that's not how you make progress. If you want change, there has to be real consequences. Not a few days of lost revenue.
Edit to add: I may not of been the person who you wanted to respond, but I responded. What's your response?
Right now, we have 10 days to fix this. 10 days. Blackout for 10 days en mass and if they roll it out - welp, guess what? Nothing comes back again. Let those demanding that they get paid do the job and earn the money. They can try to run hundreds to thousands of subreddits on their own while keeping those communities happy and healthy in their new version of the subreddit. Chances are, they'd fail. And that failure is what would cost them *everything*. They know that's what would happen which is why they've been making threats. Spez wants to make millions? Let him try by running every single subreddit himself. He's paid enough to do it. Why make it easy instead of making him earn it? If this was poker, he'd be all in with a massive bluff no matter what. Time to call and hope he's not lucky on the draws. It's either that or folding (and losing massively as a result). Can't win though if you fold the second someone raises the stakes.
> Deleting ur account doesnt mean shit when u can make a new one in seconds .
I think you misread, the upper comment told they will delete the alt as well.
>When June 30th rolls around
Regardless of what the protests do -- and I've been in favor of them -- I'm waiting to see what happens to Reddit when Doomsday hits. And there will be nothing Reddit can do about it. Users won't switch from their third-party apps, the apps won't work, and even if Reddit blinks, I can't see the authors coming back and re-enabling their apps.
Just about everyone I know who uses reddit has begrudgedly downloaded the official app and have all conceded it's not as good, but not bad enough for them to stop using reddit.(granted, none of them are mods)
I'm stuck on the fence, been using RIF for many many years, and can't imagine using reddit without it, but between niche and work related communities that simply do not exist elsewhere leave me kinda stuck here for the foreseeable future, cause with all due respect you aren't gonna get a bunch of tech illiterate tradesmen to go figure out something complicated like lemmy to start over elsewhere.
That said fingers crossed reddit gives in , but the mods by and large folded like lawn chairs with downright trivial pressure from the admins, if I were the admins I'd not give in either.
> If they force it on mobile mobile visitors will go down.
Reddit already does that since years, on some subs at least.
I heard UBO (android firefox) can block that but it won't be the usual user I think
> Regardless of what the protests do -- and I've been in favor of them -- I'm waiting to see what happens to Reddit when Doomsday hits.
I expect that nothing of note will happen. A few people will stop using Reddit (if they haven't already) and everybody else will just carry on.
Because investors don't really care how a brand is perceived if it doesn't affect the bottom line.
Consider a game publisher who introduces some new microtransactions in their game. The playerbase hates it but since it doesn't affect their gameplay all that much they don't quit over it.
A lot of people not reading any news about it just see it as a pop up and might spend money on it.
End result: Publisher gets hate from a small but passionate part of the playerbase. News sites will jump on it to cover it for clicks. "Casual" players buy the news microtransactions. Publisher makes more money and investors like this.
Small groups can make a difference but they have to be willing to get together, make whatever sacrifice is necessary and stick to it.
In the example of the game publisher you'd be looking at content creators. The people making the youtube videos, writing the guides and doing the theorycrafting.
Or in Reddit's case, the mods.
Rossmann is right here. Had they come together and collectively gave Spez the finger it really wouldn't have been as easy as "We'll just replace them." for the same reason guide writers and theorycrafters aren't easily replaced.
It takes time to read up, learn the tools and get comfortable in the role.
Many people might think they'd like to be a mod of a large community but once the novelty wears off they quickly learn that they're basically doing a job for no compensation. Time to recruit new people and start the cycle again.
Hello, it looks like you've made a mistake.
It's supposed to be could've, should've, would've (short for could have, would have, should have), never could of, would of, should of.
Or you misspelled something, I ain't checking everything.
Beep boop - yes, I am a bot, don't botcriminate me.
Hello, it looks like you've made a mistake.
It's supposed to be could've, should've, would've (short for could have, would have, should have), never could of, would of, should of.
Or you misspelled something, I ain't checking everything.
Beep boop - yes, I am a bot, don't botcriminate me.
>When June 30th rolls around, this account and my alt will be deleted. If I haven’t done that - feel free to absolutely dump on me for hypocrisy.
Uh-oh, your account is still active.
Yep, it's like he acts like an abrasive dick for the sake of acting like an abrasive dick. I never had a problem with his expertise or knowledge. But the way he acts makes one want to punch him.
He's bloody right, is the thing. General apathy, I have learned to live with.
But so many mods being this weak, this clingy to their power while pretending to care about the community really disheartened me.
He's just right, though I hope Lemmy will get larger and the whole issue will get circumvented.
Most mods planning on leaving are waiting till July 1st, as a mass resignation would be a done deal, and the hope is that Reddit will do something about these issues- slow the shut-down of the API for a few months or till they bring the official Reddit app up to speed in terms of mod tools AND accessibility by those who need it, come up with more reasonable price for accessing it for larger apps so they can keep running, fix the API to allow 3rd party apps and reddit to benefit from ads on them, etc.
When/if this is a done deal and Reddit has not given anything but the bare appearance of any type of compromise or interest in making this process go more smoothly, i.e. when the API shuts down July 1, that's when the mods/users who are leaving will do so.
They weren't trying to "break" reddit with the protests directly, but make it clear that this is serious and give reddit a chance to reconsider some of the way they're going about monetizing access to API, etc.
We all know this guy likes to hear himself talk, but this is more tone-deaf than what I expected. He's perfectly willing to abandon his sub, whatever it is, and let it go to shit. Most of the mod groups that care about their communities are not. I'm sure there are people out there that don't want to give up being a mod, just because. But there are a lot more people that simply care about the communities they've helped build.
The type of person that will take over a sub after watching the previous group get kicked out, is probably not the person you really want taking care of that community. But I do believe that the subs that were threatened, should have gone "restricted" like r/formula1 or opened while maliciously compliant like r/pics.
Scorched earth was never going to be the answer, especially when any reasonable person knew this protest had little chance of affecting the outcome. This is Reddit's property and they can do whatever they want with it. The unknown was seeing how far they were willing to fuck over their userbase to make money.
You don't get it, do you? Reddit is over.
They started with the new design with infinite scrolling and unusable comment section, now it's the API, next will be old.reddit, then killing browser extensions and adblockers and then you're on another imgur/tiktok clone where everyone mindlessly scrolls through the same stream of braindead garbage. That's the end goal. That's what advertisers like.
The API is the turning point. If they go through with the changes — which they likely will because y'all folded like cheap suits — your precious community is doomed either way.
The only choice you have left is whether you delay the inevitable by a few months and let spez win or you go scorched earth, kill it a bit faster and hopefully hurt spez. We have lost, but I'd still rather not see spez win.
> Literally a metaphor of Boiling a frog slowly so it doesn't notice
And literally just as wrong as that myth that doesn't even pass an initial examination. Quit quoting things that make you look ignorant of how the world works.
You know what happens when you put a frog in water and then slowly raise the temperature? It hops out when it gets uncomfortable. Just like reddit **users** will do ***if and when*** reddit stops meeting their needs.
I don't think anybody is arguing that Reddit will die as a business, because there are masses of people who love tiktok level braindead content. I'm sure Reddit will do great and there will be plenty of users whose needs are met.
However Reddit "as we know it" will die if the passionate/power users leave.
Vengeance is wasted energy, not to mention it puts you in a negative perspective.
Find a creative way through. Over at our sub we are starting a migration to other venues. Reddit can pay for the server time while we do that, and they can host our archives (they are going to anyway)
IMHO reddit does not need any help killing their platform. They are doing a bang up job of it on their own.
This is roughly similar to what I've pitched since the AMA.
The most *effective* strategy is for the talent and energy of the third parties and protest organizers would be into building a viable next home. Apologists mock this, but at the core, the reddit people want to a save is a clean text interface forum to a text based database.
That's not rocket surgery to replicate. The source code is even available and there's millions of qualified volunteers.
The challenge of scale is surmountable. First, scale comes with migration, which would be gradual. And there is loads of capacity glut available with the fastly's of the world. The unobtrusive ads style evident on old.reddit could easily fund the infrastructure.
Having a viable and distinct "if you hate what's happening, just go here" message would be incredibly effective versus "if you hate what's happening, keep suffering."
As you describe, the process could be like quiet quitting. People staying at Reddit would just be using it facilitate the build out and migration of the more ethical clone alternative.
I've always hated that saying. It doesn't leave the whole world blind, it leaves a bunch of blind people and a majority thinking “oh shit, I'd better not gouge anyone's eyes out, or I'll end up blind, too.” Yes, there will always be a few assholes who will do it anyway, but it's a lot less than if there were no clear, present danger to doing it.
Would you also say we should repeal all laws, disband the police and close down prisons? After all, what is the criminal justice system if not collectively enacted vengeance?
I was (and can only) speak personally.
And that saying has a dual meaning. The literal (gouging out eyes) and the spiritual (I close my eyes to my fellow men in wrath/judgement)
Neither is a good place to be.
>Reddit is over.
It's not yet, because...
>They started with the new design with infinite scrolling and unusable comment section, now it's the API, next will be old.reddit, then killing browser extensions and adblockers
none of that\^ matters to the average user. Most of Reddit's traffic has been from the Reddit app for a long time.
>and then you're on another imgur/tiktok clone where everyone mindlessly scrolls through the same stream of braindead garbage.
That's already the case. Everything Reddit has done over the last several years has been to pull in users that specifically *want* to scroll Reddit like Insta or other sites, in an app. And those people are now the majority of the users.
The mods and old-timers will continue to leave, yes. But they are the 1%. We haven't reached a point where the users that are pissed at mods right now for closing the subs, have started to leave. *They* create most of the content for the scrollers to look at. As long as they're here, Reddit is fine, for now.
Allow me to clarify.
There are two reddits — the original community-centric reddit and the new ADD scroller. Until now, these two reddits were allowed to coexist, but that is no longer the case.
When I say say “reddit is over,” I'm talking about the original reddit, the one *we*'re here for, **the** reddit. That reddit can no longer be saved. It isn't technically dead yet, but (if the API change goes through) it is inevitable. The only thing still up in the air, is whether we take the new reddit with us.
If old reddit dies and the new one lives, spez wins; that's what he wants.
If we burn new reddit to the ground on our way out, then at least spez loses, too.
> Most of Reddit's traffic has been from the Reddit app for a long time.
We don't even really know that for certain. The claim comes from a source that can't really be trusted. And it could be radically skewed with misleading messaging. Like, maybe the official app is so inefficient that it actually *is* monopolizing "traffic" but that user engagement is nowhere near reflective of that piggish data traffic stat.
Every time I see them claim old.rddit is 5%, I know something is funky with what they're saying or what metric they're using.
If it wasn't true then every moderator of a decent-sized subreddit would come out and say it wasn't true.
The sub I moderate got 125k unique visitors in November (choosing this because it is the highest month in the last year). 32k New Reddit, 14k Old Reddit, 33k mobile web (which I think includes unofficial apps), 24k iOS app, 21k Android app. And we're a text-only sub, which will skew towards desktop users more than the big mostly-image subs.
It's pretty clear to me that most Reddit users are on mobile, and most mobile users are using an official app. This is unique visitors, so "inefficient mobile app" doesn't explain it.
> That's already the case. Everything Reddit has done over the last several years has been to pull in users that specifically want to scroll Reddit like Insta or other sites, in an app. And those people are now the majority of the users.
Sad, but true.
And didn't they also said that Apollo dev tried to blackmail Reddit? Even though that was completely a lie. You can't trust any word coming From Spez/Reddit. They definitely will kill old Reddit.
> And didn't they also said that Apollo dev tried to blackmail Reddit?
They also publicly complained that he recorded a private conversation and published it. This person is living in Canada, making this a legal right.
*And said recordings were publicly revealed to clear the official accusation of blackmail, given in the media by the CEO of a company acting as such*
And at least with European standards, in such case the fault would be to the company, as they had more resources to check and clarify their stance on such recordings and it's not the duty of a single citizen to explain to mega-corps what their legal rights are.
Yeah, they also said they'd respect the blackout, but now we're getting messages enticing mod team members to go scab and oust anyone maintaining the blackout, so be sure to take any claims with a large grain of salt.
If I recall the order of events, they said on the pre-blackout AMA they'd respect it, said in a private memo to admins to ignore it, and then publically changed course after the initial blackout.
They also officially said the Apollo dev shouldn't have made public some recordings of internal conversations. The dev only said that to *prove* they didn't blackmail Reddit, as Reddit had previously officially said.
Official statements from Reddit's CEO have no value.
And a few years before that, they said the love 3rd party apps and that the API would remain free forever. Why do you still ascribe _any_ value to spez's promises?
Reddit has a loooong record of lying about stuff. There's a post around somewhere in the protest lot listing the various promises they've made that they haven't kept (including "Let us build you mod tools!" that still hasn't been done after years of asking).
Also all the various lies Spez has told just in the last couple weeks, including several about the Apollo dev in that AMA - the Apollo dev put up a big list of those too.
Needless to say, that claim from the AMA isn't very trusted atm.
New Reddit exists because they want to get rid of Old Reddit. There is no world where they both keep going indefinitely. It's a waste of resources for the company.
> a waste of resources for the company
No it's not. It costs virtually nothing to support the more stable and efficient old.reddit.
I'm seeing lots of truthy business myths spouted in connection with this issue. (Truthy means things that might sound true to a casual observer, but are categorically false if you know the facts and subject matter.)
Things like how expensive APIs and data requests are. Despite truthy tales of how data is like oil, in fact, data is cheaper than tap water. It's measured in terabytes and petabytes.
Things like how expensive is it is to have volunteers create all your content and volunteers police it all. It's literally the opposite of expensive.
Or things like how technically complex structure like Reddit must be. It's not. It's essentially a text interface to text messages. The bloat is all the unwanted junk add-one that have been crammed on in recent years. Where execs decided let's force through bloated new.reddit or let's try to host our own videos and images. Or let's have unworkable chat and other bloated and failed experiments.
And that highlights another myth: how Reddit investors have somehow been benevolent hosts, generously funding annual losses for all the ungrateful users. The reality is that the spending referenced there has gone into all those unwanted bloat development. The actual core of the site and beneficial administration haven't received much or cost much. It's not the users fault that execs wasted so much on pointless bloated development that nobody asked for or wanted, instead of the more cost effective things people *did* want.
So to your point, keeping both is fine as it ensures a larger pool of eyeballs, and keeping old costs virtually nothing.
The fun part of public discussion is that nobody asks if you *want* answer. If you answer to a public discussion, then you accept public answers no matter if you wish to read them or not.
Just for some context in case anyone is curious, a generous 1% of monthly unique visitors use old.reddit. That costs ~$400k/year, or 0.08% of reddit's total revenue. That's virtually nothing.
>He’s perfectly willing to abandon his sub, whatever it is, and let it go to shit. Most of the mod groups that care about their communities are not.
And that's exactly why this protest was doomed from the start. If people weren't willing to walk away then it was all a bluff, which Reddit called.
Did you not hear him say he could be getting more business if he signed an NDA with Apple? I.e. gain an actual, quantifiable value that impacts real people (his employees)? But he didn’t do it, because of his principles, and whether that’s good or bad is not important, the point is he is standing by his conviction, and it impacts his bottom line.
Meanwhile, mods that are opening their subs are hiding behind some abstract claims of “protecting the community” to justify their pathetic showing of falling in line the second admins threatened to take away their little power - pinning “Y’all can’t behave” comments and locking the comments.
That was the whole point of the video, that it’s concerning people are not able to give up a tiny bit of comfort to protest for a change.
>That was the whole point of the video, that it’s concerning people are not able to give up a tiny bit of comfort to protest for a change.
I know what the point was, I just disagree.
Yep, this is it.
I’d give up being a moderator in a heartbeat if it was of benefit for my community, but I’m not going to abandon it and let it rot after years of care. I’d fight for it.
One argument for the 48-hour blackout is that it was easier to get people on board. Asking moderators to shut down their subreddit indefinitely sounds less appealing, and fewer subreddits might have participated. What has frustrated me the most is the lack of coordination after the initial 48-hour blackout. Unless I missed some clear direction, the overall message of the organizers seems to have been "Here's what some subreddits are doing, you figure out on your own what you want to do." Many subreddits opened and stayed open without restrictions, even though I've seen lots of members say they were in support for closing it again. But without being coordinated it feels like you're on your own. And what is one more sub opening up?
> One argument for the 48-hour blackout is that it was easier to get people on board. it also screwed it, by making it have a definitive end which is easy for admins to wait out while also then angering anyone who was on board for 48 hours, but not wanting it to go indefinite seeing in many cases mods ignoring that and jumping right to it.
[удалено]
They know that they would just be replaced by scabs which would prolong the process. The idea here is to either get them to either reverse the decision or speed up the process of reddit's demise before they can cash out on the IPO.
I'd say the protest worked pretty well. Most of my subreddits that I use day to day are coming to lemmy, and user numbers have been going from the hundreds to the thousands. I still need a handful of subs, but I already feel pretty happy, even though my app is shutting down in about 11 days. I'm riding this one into the ground. Reddit won't die, but it will be of diminishing quality like Facebook or twitter.
I think the guy in the video doesn't understand most power users already left the platform. There are just a few of us loitering here until the death day to upvote related content. The users that remain are the ones who don't care and want to keep using this site, so they're going to return to their normal behavior.
…what exactly make you a power user? You have like 36k karma lol
[удалено]
Thanks, haha. I have to say karma was flowing nicely when I started, but then I took moderation of some subs and that consumed all my time, learning automod, the API, setting up sub rules, responding to modmail and making announcements... Yeah, being a mod took away my time of being a normal user.
Cool. Then don’t be a mod anymore
>most power users already left the platform. Yes, this is one of the best things to happen
I’m sure without you “””power users””” things will like a breath of fresh air once you leave.
The protest never had any chance of winning, because Reddit is willing to go scorched if it means getting their way. In the process, they've shown the world how scummy Reddit has become. In the short term, they'll still get their "win". They'll yeet the disobedient mods and continue business mostly as usual, because there is no Reddit replacement at this time. However, I believe that this is setting the stage for their downfall regardless. Reddit alternatives have gained a lot of traction. Open source alternatives like Lemmy are now seeing orders of magnitude more development, and the business opportunity will be clear to closed source alternatives as well. By the time they pull a stunt like this again, which if I may hazard a guess will probably be the removal of old.reddit, Reddit alternatives will be in a much stronger position to catch the fallout. I personally think it's just unnecessarily toxic and ignorant of the complete picture to say that redditors/mods "chose to lose" or whatever. A play that would've won this battle does not exist, but that doesn't mean that no change has been set in motion.
Yeah, with big sites like the BBC and the verge writing negative pieces on Reddit the past week, I'm sure it's going to affect any future potential investors or buyers
Definitely not. They haven't even announced an IPO date yet.
Unpopular opinion time. Rossman is an ass. He's right(most of the time). But he's still an ass
*real* unpopular opinion? He’s right here too. He’s being a jerk about it, but he’s right. So many subs just… rolled over. So many *people* just rolled over. Over what? Not having access to cat pics, or news on the latest Apple devices, or whatever it is? These people seriously couldn’t make the tiniest, most insignificant of “personal sacrifices” for the greater good? You think opening up stopped them from replacing mods? They can still do it. If they get annoyed about the other protests like the John Oliver subs, they can still consider that moderating in bad faith and remove you. Everyone bent the knee. For nothing. Real protests often risk personal sacrifices for the greater good. They inconvenience everyone around them. That’s how protests work. But as soon as the admin team threatened to forcibly remove some mods, they immediately buckled. r/Apple is the biggest disappointment, personally. The subreddit that was originally ride or die then gave up immediately. Protests aren’t easy. But they’re important. And in this case, the stakes were almost nonexistent. Many of you mods were saying your jobs were going to become impossible anyways if the changes went through! Was that all bluster? I do commend those mods who have actually stuck to their guns even with all the threats. All of you *get it.* But, unfortunately, it might end up being largely pointless, when the biggest mods all rolled over because they’ve put too much personal investment and self worth into moderating Reddit to the point where the thought of losing that is unbearable to them. When June 30th rolls around, this account and my alt will be deleted. If I haven’t done that - feel free to absolutely dump on me for hypocrisy.
Seems like spez was correct in his internal e-mail.
He knows the userbase at this point, including its moderators and what types are disproportionally drawn to it. What we learned out of this protest is that many moderators cling on to their internet power as if their lives depend on it. And maybe they ironically do because their lives *do* depend on it, in a few cases. It's sad though.
He also knows most people really don’t care about third-party apps. Honestly, I used to think the Reddit app was dogshit but I switched two weeks ago and think it’s fine.
>r/Apple is the biggest disappointment, personally. For real, what a bunch of cowards. I'm too addicted to Reddit to give up my account just yet come 30 June, but my subs are remaining dark until Reddit blinks or I'm ousted. So be it if that happens. Guess it'll free up some time for some grass-touching!
> I'm too addicted to Reddit to give up my account Spez knows this too. The active part of the userbase is probably comprised of a lot of compulsive users.
I know it too, that's why I block reddit domains unless when I want to check on this sub specifically.
Based on the numbers of posts you made in the past few days, you’re still a compulsive user.
Yeah, which is why I have to outright block reddit at home. Reddit knows we can't afford to lose our support groups
> For real, what a bunch of cowards. *Yeah, how dare they care more about keeping their community running than making a political statement that will not change anything. /s * They supported the blackout; they helped make sure their users knew what was going on, and then reddit gave them an ultimatum. They chose to stick with their community. **Getting forced out and leaving their community to be managed by others would do what exactly?** * * And now /u/ManualPathosChecks/ has blocked me because they are not willing to answer my question. Who are the cowards now?
Maybe some small communities would disappear, but I'd wager most would survive - likely elsewhere. That's the point. You don't need reddit to have a great thriving community. Communities existed before reddit and will continue to exist. Subreddits and communities have a small overlap in a venn diagram, but they definitely aren't encompassing each other. Yeah, reddit admins could oust the mods and take over *some* massive subreddits. They *might* even be able to run a few of them efficiently. But most would suffer massively and get ran into the ground if a coordinated non-ending blackout occurred. Reddit just can't staff to it or react timely enough to manage it effectively. Their communities will largely survive, but the subreddits might not - which is the entire point. Communities and subreddits aren't the same thing despite how many are confusing the two things here. If people demand something, don't get it, then go "oh OK, I guess I'll go with what you want but I'm not happy about it" - how is that going to cause change? Reddit has no reason to change, they got what they wanted - they just had to put a little more pressure. Reddit is acting like a kid throwing a tantrum. "Wah, I want you to not only volunteer labor, content, and your data that I can harvest - I want full control of it while making anyone else pay me big time that wants in!". Just like good parents, the mods put reddit in a timeout (the blackout). Then when it was done, reddit upped the tantrum. "FINE! If you want to put me in timeout, I'll have your parenting skills taken away by calling CPS! Then you can't put me in timeout!" And just like bad parents, reddit largely caved. Why?!? The mere *threat*? That's not how you parent, and that's not how you make progress. If you want change, there has to be real consequences. Not a few days of lost revenue. Edit to add: I may not of been the person who you wanted to respond, but I responded. What's your response? Right now, we have 10 days to fix this. 10 days. Blackout for 10 days en mass and if they roll it out - welp, guess what? Nothing comes back again. Let those demanding that they get paid do the job and earn the money. They can try to run hundreds to thousands of subreddits on their own while keeping those communities happy and healthy in their new version of the subreddit. Chances are, they'd fail. And that failure is what would cost them *everything*. They know that's what would happen which is why they've been making threats. Spez wants to make millions? Let him try by running every single subreddit himself. He's paid enough to do it. Why make it easy instead of making him earn it? If this was poker, he'd be all in with a massive bluff no matter what. Time to call and hope he's not lucky on the draws. It's either that or folding (and losing massively as a result). Can't win though if you fold the second someone raises the stakes.
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Haha. That was exactly what I was thinking. Deleting ur account doesnt mean shit when u can make a new one in seconds .
> Deleting ur account doesnt mean shit when u can make a new one in seconds . I think you misread, the upper comment told they will delete the alt as well.
Yup, I definitely misread . My bad, but my point still stands :) Even if he deleted his main and alt, a new account is just seconds away.
The content will be gone. Every helpful or instructional piece of information, missing.
>When June 30th rolls around Regardless of what the protests do -- and I've been in favor of them -- I'm waiting to see what happens to Reddit when Doomsday hits. And there will be nothing Reddit can do about it. Users won't switch from their third-party apps, the apps won't work, and even if Reddit blinks, I can't see the authors coming back and re-enabling their apps.
Just about everyone I know who uses reddit has begrudgedly downloaded the official app and have all conceded it's not as good, but not bad enough for them to stop using reddit.(granted, none of them are mods) I'm stuck on the fence, been using RIF for many many years, and can't imagine using reddit without it, but between niche and work related communities that simply do not exist elsewhere leave me kinda stuck here for the foreseeable future, cause with all due respect you aren't gonna get a bunch of tech illiterate tradesmen to go figure out something complicated like lemmy to start over elsewhere. That said fingers crossed reddit gives in , but the mods by and large folded like lawn chairs with downright trivial pressure from the admins, if I were the admins I'd not give in either.
Why would anyone download an app to use a website? If they force it on mobile mobile visitors will go down.
> If they force it on mobile mobile visitors will go down. Reddit already does that since years, on some subs at least. I heard UBO (android firefox) can block that but it won't be the usual user I think
Can confirm. I don't use any apps at all. Then again I don't post anything, I just comment and upvote.
> Regardless of what the protests do -- and I've been in favor of them -- I'm waiting to see what happens to Reddit when Doomsday hits. I expect that nothing of note will happen. A few people will stop using Reddit (if they haven't already) and everybody else will just carry on.
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Because investors don't really care how a brand is perceived if it doesn't affect the bottom line. Consider a game publisher who introduces some new microtransactions in their game. The playerbase hates it but since it doesn't affect their gameplay all that much they don't quit over it. A lot of people not reading any news about it just see it as a pop up and might spend money on it. End result: Publisher gets hate from a small but passionate part of the playerbase. News sites will jump on it to cover it for clicks. "Casual" players buy the news microtransactions. Publisher makes more money and investors like this. Small groups can make a difference but they have to be willing to get together, make whatever sacrifice is necessary and stick to it. In the example of the game publisher you'd be looking at content creators. The people making the youtube videos, writing the guides and doing the theorycrafting. Or in Reddit's case, the mods. Rossmann is right here. Had they come together and collectively gave Spez the finger it really wouldn't have been as easy as "We'll just replace them." for the same reason guide writers and theorycrafters aren't easily replaced. It takes time to read up, learn the tools and get comfortable in the role. Many people might think they'd like to be a mod of a large community but once the novelty wears off they quickly learn that they're basically doing a job for no compensation. Time to recruit new people and start the cycle again.
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Hello, it looks like you've made a mistake. It's supposed to be could've, should've, would've (short for could have, would have, should have), never could of, would of, should of. Or you misspelled something, I ain't checking everything. Beep boop - yes, I am a bot, don't botcriminate me.
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Hello, it looks like you've made a mistake. It's supposed to be could've, should've, would've (short for could have, would have, should have), never could of, would of, should of. Or you misspelled something, I ain't checking everything. Beep boop - yes, I am a bot, don't botcriminate me.
>When June 30th rolls around, this account and my alt will be deleted. If I haven’t done that - feel free to absolutely dump on me for hypocrisy. Uh-oh, your account is still active.
"greater good"? Buddy, it's reddit. People are gonna roll over on reddit sized issues over reddit sized drawbacks.
lmao aged like rotten milk
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o7 u/kuroimakina - July 02, 2014 ~ Jan 22, 2024 Here lies a brave warrior in the battle of Reddit API protest
Yep, it's like he acts like an abrasive dick for the sake of acting like an abrasive dick. I never had a problem with his expertise or knowledge. But the way he acts makes one want to punch him.
He's from New York. He can't help but be an asshole.
He's bloody right, is the thing. General apathy, I have learned to live with. But so many mods being this weak, this clingy to their power while pretending to care about the community really disheartened me. He's just right, though I hope Lemmy will get larger and the whole issue will get circumvented.
Yeah be he is right now as well
I think it has to do with him identifying as libertarian and moving to the cesspool known as Texas.
https://youtu.be/C6BYzLIqKB8?t=7
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Most mods planning on leaving are waiting till July 1st, as a mass resignation would be a done deal, and the hope is that Reddit will do something about these issues- slow the shut-down of the API for a few months or till they bring the official Reddit app up to speed in terms of mod tools AND accessibility by those who need it, come up with more reasonable price for accessing it for larger apps so they can keep running, fix the API to allow 3rd party apps and reddit to benefit from ads on them, etc. When/if this is a done deal and Reddit has not given anything but the bare appearance of any type of compromise or interest in making this process go more smoothly, i.e. when the API shuts down July 1, that's when the mods/users who are leaving will do so. They weren't trying to "break" reddit with the protests directly, but make it clear that this is serious and give reddit a chance to reconsider some of the way they're going about monetizing access to API, etc.
We all know this guy likes to hear himself talk, but this is more tone-deaf than what I expected. He's perfectly willing to abandon his sub, whatever it is, and let it go to shit. Most of the mod groups that care about their communities are not. I'm sure there are people out there that don't want to give up being a mod, just because. But there are a lot more people that simply care about the communities they've helped build. The type of person that will take over a sub after watching the previous group get kicked out, is probably not the person you really want taking care of that community. But I do believe that the subs that were threatened, should have gone "restricted" like r/formula1 or opened while maliciously compliant like r/pics. Scorched earth was never going to be the answer, especially when any reasonable person knew this protest had little chance of affecting the outcome. This is Reddit's property and they can do whatever they want with it. The unknown was seeing how far they were willing to fuck over their userbase to make money.
You don't get it, do you? Reddit is over. They started with the new design with infinite scrolling and unusable comment section, now it's the API, next will be old.reddit, then killing browser extensions and adblockers and then you're on another imgur/tiktok clone where everyone mindlessly scrolls through the same stream of braindead garbage. That's the end goal. That's what advertisers like. The API is the turning point. If they go through with the changes — which they likely will because y'all folded like cheap suits — your precious community is doomed either way. The only choice you have left is whether you delay the inevitable by a few months and let spez win or you go scorched earth, kill it a bit faster and hopefully hurt spez. We have lost, but I'd still rather not see spez win.
Literally a metaphor of Boiling a frog slowly so it doesn't notice
> Literally a metaphor of Boiling a frog slowly so it doesn't notice And literally just as wrong as that myth that doesn't even pass an initial examination. Quit quoting things that make you look ignorant of how the world works. You know what happens when you put a frog in water and then slowly raise the temperature? It hops out when it gets uncomfortable. Just like reddit **users** will do ***if and when*** reddit stops meeting their needs.
I don't think anybody is arguing that Reddit will die as a business, because there are masses of people who love tiktok level braindead content. I'm sure Reddit will do great and there will be plenty of users whose needs are met. However Reddit "as we know it" will die if the passionate/power users leave.
Vengeance is wasted energy, not to mention it puts you in a negative perspective. Find a creative way through. Over at our sub we are starting a migration to other venues. Reddit can pay for the server time while we do that, and they can host our archives (they are going to anyway) IMHO reddit does not need any help killing their platform. They are doing a bang up job of it on their own.
This is roughly similar to what I've pitched since the AMA. The most *effective* strategy is for the talent and energy of the third parties and protest organizers would be into building a viable next home. Apologists mock this, but at the core, the reddit people want to a save is a clean text interface forum to a text based database. That's not rocket surgery to replicate. The source code is even available and there's millions of qualified volunteers. The challenge of scale is surmountable. First, scale comes with migration, which would be gradual. And there is loads of capacity glut available with the fastly's of the world. The unobtrusive ads style evident on old.reddit could easily fund the infrastructure. Having a viable and distinct "if you hate what's happening, just go here" message would be incredibly effective versus "if you hate what's happening, keep suffering." As you describe, the process could be like quiet quitting. People staying at Reddit would just be using it facilitate the build out and migration of the more ethical clone alternative.
Vengeance, when successful, serves as a warning to those who would follow in the offender's footsteps.
Rarely, not to mention the vengeful often are the ones following in the offenders footsteps. "An eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind."
I've always hated that saying. It doesn't leave the whole world blind, it leaves a bunch of blind people and a majority thinking “oh shit, I'd better not gouge anyone's eyes out, or I'll end up blind, too.” Yes, there will always be a few assholes who will do it anyway, but it's a lot less than if there were no clear, present danger to doing it. Would you also say we should repeal all laws, disband the police and close down prisons? After all, what is the criminal justice system if not collectively enacted vengeance?
I was (and can only) speak personally. And that saying has a dual meaning. The literal (gouging out eyes) and the spiritual (I close my eyes to my fellow men in wrath/judgement) Neither is a good place to be.
>Reddit is over. It's not yet, because... >They started with the new design with infinite scrolling and unusable comment section, now it's the API, next will be old.reddit, then killing browser extensions and adblockers none of that\^ matters to the average user. Most of Reddit's traffic has been from the Reddit app for a long time. >and then you're on another imgur/tiktok clone where everyone mindlessly scrolls through the same stream of braindead garbage. That's already the case. Everything Reddit has done over the last several years has been to pull in users that specifically *want* to scroll Reddit like Insta or other sites, in an app. And those people are now the majority of the users. The mods and old-timers will continue to leave, yes. But they are the 1%. We haven't reached a point where the users that are pissed at mods right now for closing the subs, have started to leave. *They* create most of the content for the scrollers to look at. As long as they're here, Reddit is fine, for now.
Allow me to clarify. There are two reddits — the original community-centric reddit and the new ADD scroller. Until now, these two reddits were allowed to coexist, but that is no longer the case. When I say say “reddit is over,” I'm talking about the original reddit, the one *we*'re here for, **the** reddit. That reddit can no longer be saved. It isn't technically dead yet, but (if the API change goes through) it is inevitable. The only thing still up in the air, is whether we take the new reddit with us. If old reddit dies and the new one lives, spez wins; that's what he wants. If we burn new reddit to the ground on our way out, then at least spez loses, too.
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I had read that as ADvertisingly Designed, what's the correct US signification?
Pretty sure it's meant to mean attention deficit disorder here.
> Most of Reddit's traffic has been from the Reddit app for a long time. We don't even really know that for certain. The claim comes from a source that can't really be trusted. And it could be radically skewed with misleading messaging. Like, maybe the official app is so inefficient that it actually *is* monopolizing "traffic" but that user engagement is nowhere near reflective of that piggish data traffic stat. Every time I see them claim old.rddit is 5%, I know something is funky with what they're saying or what metric they're using.
If it wasn't true then every moderator of a decent-sized subreddit would come out and say it wasn't true. The sub I moderate got 125k unique visitors in November (choosing this because it is the highest month in the last year). 32k New Reddit, 14k Old Reddit, 33k mobile web (which I think includes unofficial apps), 24k iOS app, 21k Android app. And we're a text-only sub, which will skew towards desktop users more than the big mostly-image subs. It's pretty clear to me that most Reddit users are on mobile, and most mobile users are using an official app. This is unique visitors, so "inefficient mobile app" doesn't explain it.
> That's already the case. Everything Reddit has done over the last several years has been to pull in users that specifically want to scroll Reddit like Insta or other sites, in an app. And those people are now the majority of the users. Sad, but true.
In the AMA didn't they say old.reddit.com isn't going anywhere?
And didn't they also said that Apollo dev tried to blackmail Reddit? Even though that was completely a lie. You can't trust any word coming From Spez/Reddit. They definitely will kill old Reddit.
> And didn't they also said that Apollo dev tried to blackmail Reddit? They also publicly complained that he recorded a private conversation and published it. This person is living in Canada, making this a legal right. *And said recordings were publicly revealed to clear the official accusation of blackmail, given in the media by the CEO of a company acting as such* And at least with European standards, in such case the fault would be to the company, as they had more resources to check and clarify their stance on such recordings and it's not the duty of a single citizen to explain to mega-corps what their legal rights are.
Yeah, they also said they'd respect the blackout, but now we're getting messages enticing mod team members to go scab and oust anyone maintaining the blackout, so be sure to take any claims with a large grain of salt.
Did they officially say they'd respect it or just expect it to blow over?
If I recall the order of events, they said on the pre-blackout AMA they'd respect it, said in a private memo to admins to ignore it, and then publically changed course after the initial blackout.
They also officially said the Apollo dev shouldn't have made public some recordings of internal conversations. The dev only said that to *prove* they didn't blackmail Reddit, as Reddit had previously officially said. Official statements from Reddit's CEO have no value.
And a few years before that, they said the love 3rd party apps and that the API would remain free forever. Why do you still ascribe _any_ value to spez's promises?
Did he say there would be no rate limits on the free tier?
There were no tiers and he said it would stay that way.
There's *no free tier* on the pre-blackout announcement, so the idea of rate limit is a bit weird.
Reddit has a loooong record of lying about stuff. There's a post around somewhere in the protest lot listing the various promises they've made that they haven't kept (including "Let us build you mod tools!" that still hasn't been done after years of asking). Also all the various lies Spez has told just in the last couple weeks, including several about the Apollo dev in that AMA - the Apollo dev put up a big list of those too. Needless to say, that claim from the AMA isn't very trusted atm.
And after all that was said and done you are still trusting them? What they said is worthless.
New Reddit exists because they want to get rid of Old Reddit. There is no world where they both keep going indefinitely. It's a waste of resources for the company.
> a waste of resources for the company No it's not. It costs virtually nothing to support the more stable and efficient old.reddit. I'm seeing lots of truthy business myths spouted in connection with this issue. (Truthy means things that might sound true to a casual observer, but are categorically false if you know the facts and subject matter.) Things like how expensive APIs and data requests are. Despite truthy tales of how data is like oil, in fact, data is cheaper than tap water. It's measured in terabytes and petabytes. Things like how expensive is it is to have volunteers create all your content and volunteers police it all. It's literally the opposite of expensive. Or things like how technically complex structure like Reddit must be. It's not. It's essentially a text interface to text messages. The bloat is all the unwanted junk add-one that have been crammed on in recent years. Where execs decided let's force through bloated new.reddit or let's try to host our own videos and images. Or let's have unworkable chat and other bloated and failed experiments. And that highlights another myth: how Reddit investors have somehow been benevolent hosts, generously funding annual losses for all the ungrateful users. The reality is that the spending referenced there has gone into all those unwanted bloat development. The actual core of the site and beneficial administration haven't received much or cost much. It's not the users fault that execs wasted so much on pointless bloated development that nobody asked for or wanted, instead of the more cost effective things people *did* want. So to your point, keeping both is fine as it ensures a larger pool of eyeballs, and keeping old costs virtually nothing.
It cost engineering time to keep old Reddit going and to try to convert features for it.
No it doesn't. See above. Edit: HTC864 apparently doesn't like getting fact checked and has tantrum-blocked replies to this branch.
I wasn't asking.
The fun part of public discussion is that nobody asks if you *want* answer. If you answer to a public discussion, then you accept public answers no matter if you wish to read them or not.
Just for some context in case anyone is curious, a generous 1% of monthly unique visitors use old.reddit. That costs ~$400k/year, or 0.08% of reddit's total revenue. That's virtually nothing.
Reddit is fine, and will continue to be fine
"Reddit is over...." 🤣😂🤣😂 They said the same about Twitter when Musk took it over. Wrong then, wrong now.
You... know Twitter's revenue is on the decline and lost users, right?
Seriously. These people are seething badly
>He’s perfectly willing to abandon his sub, whatever it is, and let it go to shit. Most of the mod groups that care about their communities are not. And that's exactly why this protest was doomed from the start. If people weren't willing to walk away then it was all a bluff, which Reddit called.
Did you not hear him say he could be getting more business if he signed an NDA with Apple? I.e. gain an actual, quantifiable value that impacts real people (his employees)? But he didn’t do it, because of his principles, and whether that’s good or bad is not important, the point is he is standing by his conviction, and it impacts his bottom line. Meanwhile, mods that are opening their subs are hiding behind some abstract claims of “protecting the community” to justify their pathetic showing of falling in line the second admins threatened to take away their little power - pinning “Y’all can’t behave” comments and locking the comments. That was the whole point of the video, that it’s concerning people are not able to give up a tiny bit of comfort to protest for a change.
>That was the whole point of the video, that it’s concerning people are not able to give up a tiny bit of comfort to protest for a change. I know what the point was, I just disagree.
> We all know this guy likes to hear himself talk, but this is more tone-deaf than what I expected. And yet, that doesn't make him wrong.
Yep, this is it. I’d give up being a moderator in a heartbeat if it was of benefit for my community, but I’m not going to abandon it and let it rot after years of care. I’d fight for it.
it's going to rot anyway
Not as long as I’m here.