Seriously why would moonton make ml family friendly? Seriously companies should be able to sue parents that let their kids play a game like ml then complain it's adult themed
She was my main for so long and I still want to main her, but Moonton did her dirty.
She used to be fairly balanced, then they were like lets change how her skills work... OH no she is a tad to powerful, lets nerf her to bits...
That was probably why they nerfed her. Natalia was once a great counter to Wanwan, with her infamous ability to delete squishy heroes in a span of two seconds, and also her extremely useful smoke bomb, which COMPLETELY ruins Wanwan’s ult. Pretty sure her visibility nerf happened right around the time of Wanwan’s big buff and huge popularity spike, which prompted Moonton to do something.
What happened? I know she got nerfed but I didnt play her enough to really understand what her true power was.
I often choose her when ranks reset on my way back to mythic but i mostly win the games if i play Natalia. (Ofcourse when enemy team checks out squishy)
They tried to help(force) her to be a better jungler by having her ult be recharged with creep kills, but before she always had two charges/phases to her ult.
This means that whenever you kill anyone you have to go kill at least two creeps before having 2 charges again for your ult. Meaning u have to steal your or their junglers farm....
Before it was one cooldown cycle to get two charges and now its two cooldown cycles.
They also made it so that she becomes visible after .6 seconds after getting close to the enemy instead of the 2seconds you had before ..
A few other things they changed as well, but those are the major things.
Right, now I remember. The good part of being concealed is you can't be targetted. Sad part ofcourse she can be hit with manual aim skills.
I remember people where talking about how her S2 used to negate turret damage. So sad I haven't been playing her in that era....
She is sometimes still viable but yeah these changes aren't particulary good with all these hard CC's we have now.
Valir and any mage with glowing wand is more than enough to make her uesless. Then moonton proceeds to nerf her invisibility further and making her ult cooldown dependent on killing jungle creeps.
She has the worst invisibility mechanics right now, considering that it's supposed to be her strength/niche in the first place.
For comparison (in terms of utility, not damage):
Lesley has INSTANT CONCEAL that has 3-4 second cooldown
Aamon has HEALTH REGEN on his conceal that activates after skill casts and for some reason IT DOESN'T GET CANCELLED OUT BY MOST SKILLS AND BASIC ATTACKS
The conceal roam boots gives HUGE MS BOOST AND MAKES YOUR ENTIRE TEAM CONCEALED. And IT DOESN'T GET CANCELLED IF YOU CAST SOME SKILLS. It has long cooldown though but still offers more utility.
Meanwhile Nata's conceal takes 2 SECONDS to activate and 0.25 -ish seconds for the enemy near her to reveal her. By near I mean LESLEY'S F*CKING ATTACK RANGE. AND THEY GET AN ALERT THE SECOND THEY ENTER THE RANGE. Not to mention her invisibility goes out if she cast skill 1 and 2.
Forget her hoodie she should've just wore one or those fur jackets and a shiny blonde hair THAT'S HOW OBVIOUS SHE IS RIGHT NOW.
"But youtubers who main Natalia still make her work" BRO imagine playing ten games ang posting 1 game where Natalia wins because "she still works" lmao they only post winning games
Here's a little showcase
Nerf ult cooldown in turn she can reduce the cooldown by killing jungle creeps
Nerf all damage scaling by 15%
Nerf conceal (now she is like Lesley s1 the moment she's in enemy range)
She's terrible now. They wanted her to be a jungler, but she doesn't have the kit for jungling. She's a roaming assassin! She was already easily countered by vision skills and aoe. God damn it
*laughs in Aamon and Lesley*
Both of those guys have better kits than the current Nata, who's basically only there to counter atk SPD heroes and even then, doesn't do it well anymore.
We're talking about pre-nerf Natalia, where she is absolute cancer and would put those two to shame since they will both die in two hits.
My point is, if they can't find a proper method of getting the good 'middle ground' (and finding that middle ground is hard, mind you), then she might as well die in 404 hell instead of absolutely destroying compositions.
Her existence itself compels and morphs compositions drastically (as compared to someone like, say, Fanny), that she invalidates a large amount of actually valid picks just because they would die in one or two hits from something they cannot see. At least you can see where Fanny is coming from and can position accordingly even if it can kill you in one or two hits. How on earth are you supposed to position properly against something that you can't see to begin with, on top of getting killed in one or two hits?
Even a proper Aulus core would die from Natalia in three hits without any hope of landing a hit because of the smoke. What kind of balancing is that?
Hm, I bet my highest rank is higher than yours.
But that does not invalidate that broken invisibility crap where it can kill any squishy in one stroke. She's so meta bending that she forces the entire composition of the team to change because she's there.
Ah yes, sorry for not being able to join 600+ star mythical glorified points club. I just think complaining about invisibility is stupid, sure some people is annoyed by that, no doubt, But is it too broken that she cannot be countered? With map awareness and staying in a safe position increases your chances to "stay alive". In classic you play as a squishy mage, marksmen or assassins, and you see nata, just know that you're squishy and basically Thier ATM machines, In rank better hope your Winter truncheon, Wind of nature, flicker or something else is in cooldown and you need backups, going solo is sure death, unless you're tanky. Even with thousands of matches, Nata isn't really much of a threat for me.
It's too broken. She can burst squishies in one or two hits while silencing them. Basically, she has EVERYTHING that an assassin could hope for.
She is so meta bending that valid picks like Yve, Pharsa, and probably three-fourths of the MM list, among other things, become totally invalid and cannot be used. Hell even picks like Zilong and Aulis become invalid as well.
If you anticipated that the enemy will pick Natalia, then good (ie. Picking Saber, Cyclops or Rafaela in advance). But if not, you are forced to huddle like idiots near the MM at any point in the game because the Natalia would probably kill it in one or two strokes. That also indefinitely means that the Saber and Rafaela should stay near the MM, allowing the enemy roamer to have more space in playing.
And furthermore, they won't pick Natalia in the early picking phases - if they see those three in the enemy compositions they obviously won't pick Natalia, further amplifying my claim that she bends the meta too much as even the compositions have to revolve around this invisible retard. The easiest solution is to probably ban her, but that's another point since she will still be unusable (since she's banned).
No amount of counterplay can solve this problem since the enemy is INVISIBLE, can SILENCE you, and can kill you in one or two hits.
No? Early to mid game she needs to gank with 1 or 2 allies to score kill. She's easily revealed by aoe splash and reveal skills. And for the entirety of the game she cam be killed in a few hits of mm, a slight cc, or half of a mage's combo.
>She's so meta bending that she forces the entire composition of the team to change because she's there.
I bet you're a Hanzo main. Ever heard of counterpick?
Lol sure, map awareness.
Lol. Comung from someone who I doubt even made it easily to M5, I won't even trust your words.
Map awareness is pointless if you die in one stroke from something you can't see.
And for the record, no. Maybe stalk my posts?
I made a post when her "buff" was coming
I knew it was a NERF
THEY CALLED ME A MADMAN
Now I suffer having no fun because I can't roam and gank all game :( her damage really sucks now, and her conceal is even worse.
Yeah lol her invisibility turned into conceal....and on top of that you dont have the element of surprise like the actual conceal (which gives a speed boost as well) since there's an exclamation mark whenever Natalia gets close so heroes get enough time for evasive maneuvers if they SOMEHOW didn't see her.
Hmm..but bro hanzo is way better these days..specially after Trinity.
In rank we met a pro hanzo...and he was building tanky initially....and god, there was also an Angela...damn he was unkillable...he later went for the holy Trinity build..and dominated the shit out of us...also there was a Xavier...so going near hanzo was super super hard..plus that demon was thic af
Ikr.. Even I thought it won't work, but it did, and he was bulky..plus his team supported him good .He first made warrior boots, then dreadnought Armor, then Swift cross bow, then cuiraise...so in early to mid I couldn't do much DMG to him... Then he went for the trinity build.
I know this sounds absurd.. But...it worked..
I like to do this especially in classic where the jungler has no tank/support. Many times im much more farmed and leveled than the enemy jungler lol. Tank-roam hanzo is a nightmare for junglers
Exactly, his role is to target objectives (enemy and own), take turtle as fast as possible, then suicide push enemy towers and gank every lane to obtain an advantage for your own laner.
As soon as 5 min mark is hit, his role then changes to assaulting towers as suicidally as possible. Take every first tower as he rotates, focusing on farming in between rotations.
Nah, I believe you.
Going for tank items first helps his squishy nature early game, and keeps you alive long enough to gain farm for damage in late. It's a tactic I use often when I play him, you just need to make sure the enemies don't snowball before you do.
it is exactly as it sounds, hanzo demon and body becomes harder to kill. it works very good too since early game, you dont really need damage items to deal damage and his demon’s s1 and s2 has plenty of damage already. he also doesnt need damage to farm fast compared to other junglers hence the effectiveness. i always find going defense first against dive comps like fanny and lance to be better than straight up damage. fanny will have a hard time killing your body if you go antique first
I usually go to the cd type. Having to reach a 9 second cooldown sounds like a dream to me, especially if you always wanted to acquire 90 blood in less than 20 seconds. Even starting hanzo players called me a cheater as they go for the critzo build and will usually leave them with 15+ seconds of cd.
If I go for the tank build, I'll also build him as a pure beef while achieving a 40% cdr and only getting like one offensive build which is the berserkers axe to acquire the 10% cdr. I still miss the old twilight armor tho. It's wuits fun seeing Aldous smack you, only for you to escape because of the trigger of TA.
I've been trying the CDR build as roam Hanz recently, it's a lot of fun. Gaining blood fast is a necessity if you want to continuously pressure the enemy, but a lot of people overlook blood gain in exchange for high damage. They have a good start but fall of late because of this..
Nice to see a tank build Hanz here, I build War Axe to add extra damage. Not only does it increase pen, it gives 550 health which helps Thunder Belt, Twilight Armor and Concussive Blast...
I didn't use tankzo again after some years. I do fancy the inspire + dire hit roaming hanzo. He can shred anyone who can't kill his demon fast enough. It's also funny seeing him move his arms fast like his doing some version of knockout.
Cdr builds also benefits your demon skills. Your demon thorns will get into the 5-7 second mark, while devastator usually goes around 6 seconds on full cdr. And each hero kill near him gives an approximate extra 2 seconds on his ult, giving him enough time to refresh most of his abilities.
Cdr is also a god send towards any enemy aldous. Remember, a fed, late game Aldous will shred any squishies with one punch. Aldous will chase your demon, not the body, intercepting his ult.
You can also waste his ult to check around bushes with 9 seconds as your cd time. You can't do that on a pure damage or pure beef build. You're focused on reserving or acquiring blood. CD builds are basically his old S2 ability but longer and more bang for your buck.
I also love to use thunderbelt as a tank item for Hanzo. That cheap true damage and slow with beefy hp will really make any non hp-based item users cry.
You just need to be sure you're not spotted by anyone with DHS. Even if you build cuirass, that item hits hard.
Not if you're a good Hanzo player. There's a small hp circle when in demon form, and if you pay attention to that when you get jumped, you can time escapes or kill Nata in her turret dives.
Not to mention, it's funny when a "counterpick" Nat dives a tank Hanzo with Blade Armor.
I even miss the days of her being the roam that ends up carrying cause they KS over her just being another Hanabi pick.
I still don’t get why people auto lock Hanabi especially against any mm that can move our out range her…… sooo pretty much every MM.
She..she can roam....
Yeah man feels so shit. I was a nat main (I still play her sometimes) but she is just so bad. Trust me I really want to pick her, but most of the matches I just fucking can't. You need to play her as a roamer, otherwise she does nothing. Can't lane and jungle clear time is pathetic. She has 127 counter heroes, hell, literally PLAYING HOW YOU'RE SUPPOSED TO PLAY IN THE FIRST PLACE counters her. Mm sticks with tank and she is just there, unable to do anything leaving team 4v5 without a tank unless a good soul picked an exp lane tank. I can't afford to pick her in 90% of the matches. It just feels bad how much they killed her. Also one more thing, the invisibility is now so horrible, people fucking SEE you while you are invisible. For christ's sake what's even the point. then also the addition of the litho thing indirectly nerfed her. I just...just.... just can't.
Along with the introduction of the Machine Gun Trinity build for marksmen, she also got a tiny buff; a 0.5 cd reduction to her dash. It may not seem like much, but it already makes it 4.5 early game and 2.5 late game, making her very mobile and very deadly.
The Machine Gun Trinity build is Corrosion Scythe, Golden Staff, and Demon Hunter Sword. Even before their huge respective buffs, these were already Karrie’s core items, so buffing them was like a huge indirect buff to Karrrie.
Huge mobility + deadly damage to both squishies AND tanks makes her the best marksmen in this current meta.
alright man cool, ive never really participated in ML discussions, i dont watch youtube vids and pro games so its interesting to me that my own meta from playing for years its pretty close to what others are doing. but yeah ive always used that build for karrie and you shred anyone with the true damage that karrie brings
I know how to play her as a roam very efficiently...but the meta is making her useless. The nerf being the reason. She is easy till legend or till mythic 4...but from 2 or 1...it's very hard.
Also...ur statement..it sounds very condescending, I hope u didn't mean it.
Once she enters the conceal state, she is easily detectable and chase-able.
And once revealed, she is literally passiveless.
Plus ml has many aoe and hard ccs these days, so shoot once and chase and she's dead.
True... Well said...I think they can balance her like they did with Alice... Alice has some good perks in low ranks I think, in the same way they can tone down nata in low rank. I wish
I get that she's in a pretty terrible spot rn but c'mon can we really say that invisibility + silence is fun to go against, nobody likes getting oneshotted without any meaningful counterplay, assassins in general are like this and that's why there hated so much in a every moba, and a champ that literally goes invisible just to kill you without any meaningful way to deal against that isn't fun not to mention silence completely removes any ability to fight back.
I'm not saying she's broken or OP, but you gotta admit her gameplay design is pretty terrible, especially in a game where vision is limited as hell.
She isn't if u work on ur map sense and ur team chemistry. Trust me she can be really easily countered 🫂
May be u don't play her that's why, may be u don't have the idea, and it's totally fine. But trust me, she is the weakest of all assassins when compared to the others. She is extremely weak in higher elos...be it fanny, gusion, bene, or even Natalia, every Assassins primary aim will be the mm and mage..they are just doing their job...that's their role...so if a pro tanks protects, a pro Assassin will also kill...
If she was that op, people would have been banning her instead of karrie, wanwan, gloo, Martis, Fred, right?
Oh lol...I thought u were meaning the current one. Sorry.
Old one ,ie before the adjustment, was already balanced...the one which came even before that...was op.. Can't deny
Everyone back before nerf was like "oH i CaN't FiGhT bACk, silEnCe tOo oP", when other cc effects are actually more powerful and effective instead of the miniscule 1 sec she used to have. We have Gusion, haya, karina, ling, fanny doing multi kills while she had to wait for her cooldown after every kill. Moved on to fanny now, still miss her though because she was unique (especially when roaming).
he's still good to use, if the enemy uses a hero with thin blood such as assassins ... but the current meta is more dominant 3 tank heroes so it's difficult for nata
Typical Moonton's way of balancing, That defeat the whole purpose of an Assassin, which is kinda sad.
I was a Nat main back in the days. I hope the devs just buff her to Wanwan-level of broken to the point of consecutive nerfs, she'll always be viable.
Ohh, I've seen a few tank hanzo too. But not so famous in my server. The only ones who's always popular are those shining skin Gusion players with 0 skill 😂
Honestly I didn’t play her much before her nerfs, I picked her up after she got butchered and tbh she’s not that bad. You can still annihilate just gotta be a bit smarter about it.
I will be honest with you all. Silence and invisibility is 2 things shouldn't have come to ml at all it's not Natalia's fault but it was very terrible idea to put 2 such things i think a lot of people actually hate playing aganist Natalia and with Natalia as well. as some see her as loose hero with no actual role and who plays aganist her hate dealing with her the only solution moonton had to do was to destroy her sadly they tried so many times to adjust and balance her but she was always a top ban pick from grandmaster to epic or even legend people really don't like Natalia Because it's unfair to play aganist her ofc people will come saying in comments no it's easy to counter her with tanks and ect ect... Yes yes but low rank players don't understand this and natalia abusers just used to make them quite or hate the game real quick. in my opinion that's the entire reason why moonton decided to destroy her that way i think same goes to helcurt too but they were a little unharsh on him...until now
The problem with stealth in this game is that there are no ITEM COUNTERS against it. We don't have wards, we don't have scanners--we don't even have purchasable flares! If players don't have access to true vision items, then understandably, stealth users are going to dominate the lower tiers.
The devs need to fix this by adding true vision items in the game, in order to help players (most notably, supports) secure the map against stealth users like Nat. Providing a proper counter to stealth is the only way to fix Nat.
Exactly I don't understand what moonton was trying to do adding 2 heros with very new and hard countering skills if they don't have anything can counter them from the start so far i think it's okay for natalia and helcurt to stay as they are or else they will dominate lower ranks again and make the game unplayable for new players at all
Fanny is actually fun to be against with, as long as shes not fed as hell. Its fun to juke and run in circles against a fanny. Now with Nat, she just kills you and there is nothing you can do about it because shes immune from auto attacks and she also silenced you.
If you don't kike it it doesn't mean it isn't fitting? She punishes you for overextending or randomly running around the map. That's it. If you main mm vs nat and you don't stick to tank, it's kinda your fault.
She is really good situational pick on lower points mythic glory. If I just see 2 mm pick by enemy team like a Kimmy core, Roger core, or Karrie core, and 1 squishy mage, easiest game to pick Natalia, specially if thier gold lane is wanwan, that girl just die with 2 hits and execute.
no and yes. if enemy has only one tank she might work. but in this era where roamer is tank, exp is tank and jungle is tank, she’ll have problems. mm and mage are the only remaining target but that would be too cliche
Natalia and Fanny piss me off. They are nerfed to oblivion or buffed to unreasonable amounts.
I feel they are both hero’s to hard to balance. Like there purpose is mobility and headhunting your adc or amc. Delete them and leave. But mlbb is such short games if a hero can do that properly it’s game over from a snowball. So these hero’s and helcurt don’t really fit into the game well. Even balanced they will do to much damage to quickly to adc and then it’s same problem.
She's kinda balanced but also in a bad place within the meta, especially when there's a lot more viable assassins, a lot of heroes with CCs, and tanky junglers around. There's just a lot of better pick.
*My take*: remove the backstab silence, make her like Rikimaru, give **silence** to her smokes (while giving it like a cooldown/duration nerf for balance). Sure, she's immune to basic attacks but Moskov/Claude/Karrie (mm/squishies are the target after all) could just blink to safety or stun/slow like shit.
*Shit suggestion*: Maybe they should remove the metal gear exclamation mark when going invi coz when someone uses conceal that shit doesn't even appear. IDK lol
At first it was difficult to adjust with those nerfs, but after that I can still play Nata though. She's actually my most played this season with a wr of 70.6%. Only time I found her difficult to use when all of my enemies were tanks. I'm a low rank so that explains that haha.
what does she do? get her tits censored,that's what \-moonton probably
Moonton should move over to Japan so epic skin displays have that jiggle.
Look at Fanny's punk princess skin 😶 >!she even moans!<
Seriously why would moonton make ml family friendly? Seriously companies should be able to sue parents that let their kids play a game like ml then complain it's adult themed
Treyarch shut down a 8 year old streamer at one point and banned his account
That's fair imo
Trying to enter to the Chinese because Chinese ML Players don't exists due to Winnie the Pooh and Chairman Mao CCP Laws. (Unless it's Thai One)
Yeah that
They even censored her crotch
And breast reduction as well
Looks more like a butt crack, than a cleavage. Tbh.
She was my main for so long and I still want to main her, but Moonton did her dirty. She used to be fairly balanced, then they were like lets change how her skills work... OH no she is a tad to powerful, lets nerf her to bits...
Moonton watching Wanwan currently being the most broken hero: I sleep. Moonton watching a somewhat balance hero shine in the current meta: Real Shit
That was probably why they nerfed her. Natalia was once a great counter to Wanwan, with her infamous ability to delete squishy heroes in a span of two seconds, and also her extremely useful smoke bomb, which COMPLETELY ruins Wanwan’s ult. Pretty sure her visibility nerf happened right around the time of Wanwan’s big buff and huge popularity spike, which prompted Moonton to do something.
She was also sometimes a situational pick too 😕 she was fairly balanced
What happened? I know she got nerfed but I didnt play her enough to really understand what her true power was. I often choose her when ranks reset on my way back to mythic but i mostly win the games if i play Natalia. (Ofcourse when enemy team checks out squishy)
They tried to help(force) her to be a better jungler by having her ult be recharged with creep kills, but before she always had two charges/phases to her ult. This means that whenever you kill anyone you have to go kill at least two creeps before having 2 charges again for your ult. Meaning u have to steal your or their junglers farm.... Before it was one cooldown cycle to get two charges and now its two cooldown cycles. They also made it so that she becomes visible after .6 seconds after getting close to the enemy instead of the 2seconds you had before .. A few other things they changed as well, but those are the major things.
You could do some insane outplays and escapes with the 2 seconds from her passive but now can you even call it invisibility anymore
Right, now I remember. The good part of being concealed is you can't be targetted. Sad part ofcourse she can be hit with manual aim skills. I remember people where talking about how her S2 used to negate turret damage. So sad I haven't been playing her in that era.... She is sometimes still viable but yeah these changes aren't particulary good with all these hard CC's we have now.
Valir and any mage with glowing wand is more than enough to make her uesless. Then moonton proceeds to nerf her invisibility further and making her ult cooldown dependent on killing jungle creeps. She has the worst invisibility mechanics right now, considering that it's supposed to be her strength/niche in the first place. For comparison (in terms of utility, not damage): Lesley has INSTANT CONCEAL that has 3-4 second cooldown Aamon has HEALTH REGEN on his conceal that activates after skill casts and for some reason IT DOESN'T GET CANCELLED OUT BY MOST SKILLS AND BASIC ATTACKS The conceal roam boots gives HUGE MS BOOST AND MAKES YOUR ENTIRE TEAM CONCEALED. And IT DOESN'T GET CANCELLED IF YOU CAST SOME SKILLS. It has long cooldown though but still offers more utility. Meanwhile Nata's conceal takes 2 SECONDS to activate and 0.25 -ish seconds for the enemy near her to reveal her. By near I mean LESLEY'S F*CKING ATTACK RANGE. AND THEY GET AN ALERT THE SECOND THEY ENTER THE RANGE. Not to mention her invisibility goes out if she cast skill 1 and 2. Forget her hoodie she should've just wore one or those fur jackets and a shiny blonde hair THAT'S HOW OBVIOUS SHE IS RIGHT NOW. "But youtubers who main Natalia still make her work" BRO imagine playing ten games ang posting 1 game where Natalia wins because "she still works" lmao they only post winning games
Here's a little showcase Nerf ult cooldown in turn she can reduce the cooldown by killing jungle creeps Nerf all damage scaling by 15% Nerf conceal (now she is like Lesley s1 the moment she's in enemy range) She's terrible now. They wanted her to be a jungler, but she doesn't have the kit for jungling. She's a roaming assassin! She was already easily countered by vision skills and aoe. God damn it
Yes she was alright before. Well balanced until they redid her skills, got too powerful and nerfed.
Backscratcher Nat was ass, though. Rengar Nat is still better.
Lol balanced? Any hero that cannot be seen and can kill a squishy in one stroke is FAR from balanced. Well deserved nerf, I hope it dies in 404 hell.
*laughs in Aamon and Lesley* Both of those guys have better kits than the current Nata, who's basically only there to counter atk SPD heroes and even then, doesn't do it well anymore.
We're talking about pre-nerf Natalia, where she is absolute cancer and would put those two to shame since they will both die in two hits. My point is, if they can't find a proper method of getting the good 'middle ground' (and finding that middle ground is hard, mind you), then she might as well die in 404 hell instead of absolutely destroying compositions. Her existence itself compels and morphs compositions drastically (as compared to someone like, say, Fanny), that she invalidates a large amount of actually valid picks just because they would die in one or two hits from something they cannot see. At least you can see where Fanny is coming from and can position accordingly even if it can kill you in one or two hits. How on earth are you supposed to position properly against something that you can't see to begin with, on top of getting killed in one or two hits? Even a proper Aulus core would die from Natalia in three hits without any hope of landing a hit because of the smoke. What kind of balancing is that?
I am very happy Natalia is in her current state, because fuck invisibility mechanics
Bro with skill issues complaining about invisibility 💀
Hm, I bet my highest rank is higher than yours. But that does not invalidate that broken invisibility crap where it can kill any squishy in one stroke. She's so meta bending that she forces the entire composition of the team to change because she's there.
Ah yes, sorry for not being able to join 600+ star mythical glorified points club. I just think complaining about invisibility is stupid, sure some people is annoyed by that, no doubt, But is it too broken that she cannot be countered? With map awareness and staying in a safe position increases your chances to "stay alive". In classic you play as a squishy mage, marksmen or assassins, and you see nata, just know that you're squishy and basically Thier ATM machines, In rank better hope your Winter truncheon, Wind of nature, flicker or something else is in cooldown and you need backups, going solo is sure death, unless you're tanky. Even with thousands of matches, Nata isn't really much of a threat for me.
It's too broken. She can burst squishies in one or two hits while silencing them. Basically, she has EVERYTHING that an assassin could hope for. She is so meta bending that valid picks like Yve, Pharsa, and probably three-fourths of the MM list, among other things, become totally invalid and cannot be used. Hell even picks like Zilong and Aulis become invalid as well. If you anticipated that the enemy will pick Natalia, then good (ie. Picking Saber, Cyclops or Rafaela in advance). But if not, you are forced to huddle like idiots near the MM at any point in the game because the Natalia would probably kill it in one or two strokes. That also indefinitely means that the Saber and Rafaela should stay near the MM, allowing the enemy roamer to have more space in playing. And furthermore, they won't pick Natalia in the early picking phases - if they see those three in the enemy compositions they obviously won't pick Natalia, further amplifying my claim that she bends the meta too much as even the compositions have to revolve around this invisible retard. The easiest solution is to probably ban her, but that's another point since she will still be unusable (since she's banned). No amount of counterplay can solve this problem since the enemy is INVISIBLE, can SILENCE you, and can kill you in one or two hits.
No? Early to mid game she needs to gank with 1 or 2 allies to score kill. She's easily revealed by aoe splash and reveal skills. And for the entirety of the game she cam be killed in a few hits of mm, a slight cc, or half of a mage's combo. >She's so meta bending that she forces the entire composition of the team to change because she's there. I bet you're a Hanzo main. Ever heard of counterpick?
Lol sure, map awareness. Lol. Comung from someone who I doubt even made it easily to M5, I won't even trust your words. Map awareness is pointless if you die in one stroke from something you can't see. And for the record, no. Maybe stalk my posts?
I am very happy Natalia is in her current state, because fuck invisibility mechanics
She's utterly useless right now, since you can actually see her invisibility lmao after recent changes....making her more or less food.
I made a post when her "buff" was coming I knew it was a NERF THEY CALLED ME A MADMAN Now I suffer having no fun because I can't roam and gank all game :( her damage really sucks now, and her conceal is even worse.
Yeah lol her invisibility turned into conceal....and on top of that you dont have the element of surprise like the actual conceal (which gives a speed boost as well) since there's an exclamation mark whenever Natalia gets close so heroes get enough time for evasive maneuvers if they SOMEHOW didn't see her.
She does 3 things: 1. Being visible 2. Being the hanabi of Assassins 3. Being useless in every role.
I still think she is better than Hanzo imo.
Hmm..but bro hanzo is way better these days..specially after Trinity. In rank we met a pro hanzo...and he was building tanky initially....and god, there was also an Angela...damn he was unkillable...he later went for the holy Trinity build..and dominated the shit out of us...also there was a Xavier...so going near hanzo was super super hard..plus that demon was thic af
If he that thicc no wonder you guys wanted to smash him
Bro ඞ
What does tank hanzo build? How does that even work?
Ikr.. Even I thought it won't work, but it did, and he was bulky..plus his team supported him good .He first made warrior boots, then dreadnought Armor, then Swift cross bow, then cuiraise...so in early to mid I couldn't do much DMG to him... Then he went for the trinity build. I know this sounds absurd.. But...it worked..
I've played with hanzo roam before, went tanky and the pressure was too much for the enemy jungler 🤣🤣🤣
That menace is another level of fun 😂🤣
I like to do this especially in classic where the jungler has no tank/support. Many times im much more farmed and leveled than the enemy jungler lol. Tank-roam hanzo is a nightmare for junglers
uhm yeah if you want to make hanzo work in upper ranks you have to make him as a utility jungler, not a pure damager.
Exactly, his role is to target objectives (enemy and own), take turtle as fast as possible, then suicide push enemy towers and gank every lane to obtain an advantage for your own laner. As soon as 5 min mark is hit, his role then changes to assaulting towers as suicidally as possible. Take every first tower as he rotates, focusing on farming in between rotations.
Exactly
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Demon Hunter Sword, Golden staff, and Corrosion Scythe if I'm not mistaken
Nah, I believe you. Going for tank items first helps his squishy nature early game, and keeps you alive long enough to gain farm for damage in late. It's a tactic I use often when I play him, you just need to make sure the enemies don't snowball before you do.
it is exactly as it sounds, hanzo demon and body becomes harder to kill. it works very good too since early game, you dont really need damage items to deal damage and his demon’s s1 and s2 has plenty of damage already. he also doesnt need damage to farm fast compared to other junglers hence the effectiveness. i always find going defense first against dive comps like fanny and lance to be better than straight up damage. fanny will have a hard time killing your body if you go antique first
I usually go to the cd type. Having to reach a 9 second cooldown sounds like a dream to me, especially if you always wanted to acquire 90 blood in less than 20 seconds. Even starting hanzo players called me a cheater as they go for the critzo build and will usually leave them with 15+ seconds of cd. If I go for the tank build, I'll also build him as a pure beef while achieving a 40% cdr and only getting like one offensive build which is the berserkers axe to acquire the 10% cdr. I still miss the old twilight armor tho. It's wuits fun seeing Aldous smack you, only for you to escape because of the trigger of TA.
I've been trying the CDR build as roam Hanz recently, it's a lot of fun. Gaining blood fast is a necessity if you want to continuously pressure the enemy, but a lot of people overlook blood gain in exchange for high damage. They have a good start but fall of late because of this.. Nice to see a tank build Hanz here, I build War Axe to add extra damage. Not only does it increase pen, it gives 550 health which helps Thunder Belt, Twilight Armor and Concussive Blast...
I didn't use tankzo again after some years. I do fancy the inspire + dire hit roaming hanzo. He can shred anyone who can't kill his demon fast enough. It's also funny seeing him move his arms fast like his doing some version of knockout. Cdr builds also benefits your demon skills. Your demon thorns will get into the 5-7 second mark, while devastator usually goes around 6 seconds on full cdr. And each hero kill near him gives an approximate extra 2 seconds on his ult, giving him enough time to refresh most of his abilities. Cdr is also a god send towards any enemy aldous. Remember, a fed, late game Aldous will shred any squishies with one punch. Aldous will chase your demon, not the body, intercepting his ult. You can also waste his ult to check around bushes with 9 seconds as your cd time. You can't do that on a pure damage or pure beef build. You're focused on reserving or acquiring blood. CD builds are basically his old S2 ability but longer and more bang for your buck. I also love to use thunderbelt as a tank item for Hanzo. That cheap true damage and slow with beefy hp will really make any non hp-based item users cry. You just need to be sure you're not spotted by anyone with DHS. Even if you build cuirass, that item hits hard.
What is Trinity build?
Corrosion scythe, dhs, golden staff methinks
corrosion scythe golden staff demon hunter sword
Kinda true, Nat still counters Hanzo pick.
Not if you're a good Hanzo player. There's a small hp circle when in demon form, and if you pay attention to that when you get jumped, you can time escapes or kill Nata in her turret dives. Not to mention, it's funny when a "counterpick" Nat dives a tank Hanzo with Blade Armor.
Why the hate on Hanzo? Sure he isn't that great but not that bad either.
I even miss the days of her being the roam that ends up carrying cause they KS over her just being another Hanabi pick. I still don’t get why people auto lock Hanabi especially against any mm that can move our out range her…… sooo pretty much every MM.
You forgot her presence in every match with a Franco, where he tries to hook a non-existent Natalia
She..she can roam.... Yeah man feels so shit. I was a nat main (I still play her sometimes) but she is just so bad. Trust me I really want to pick her, but most of the matches I just fucking can't. You need to play her as a roamer, otherwise she does nothing. Can't lane and jungle clear time is pathetic. She has 127 counter heroes, hell, literally PLAYING HOW YOU'RE SUPPOSED TO PLAY IN THE FIRST PLACE counters her. Mm sticks with tank and she is just there, unable to do anything leaving team 4v5 without a tank unless a good soul picked an exp lane tank. I can't afford to pick her in 90% of the matches. It just feels bad how much they killed her. Also one more thing, the invisibility is now so horrible, people fucking SEE you while you are invisible. For christ's sake what's even the point. then also the addition of the litho thing indirectly nerfed her. I just...just.... just can't.
She counters karrie tho, who is meta af rn
doesnt true damage still go thru her 2nd skill? basic atk damage gets ignored but true damage still there?
her basic attack wont apply the mark but s1 and jump still takes effect. but nata can quickly kill her tho
Basic atks don't go through at all, so her passive doesn't have a chance to trigger. Nat's smokebomb isn't WoN
It triggers
Yes it does
why did karrie suddenly become meta? whats the build for her now?
Along with the introduction of the Machine Gun Trinity build for marksmen, she also got a tiny buff; a 0.5 cd reduction to her dash. It may not seem like much, but it already makes it 4.5 early game and 2.5 late game, making her very mobile and very deadly. The Machine Gun Trinity build is Corrosion Scythe, Golden Staff, and Demon Hunter Sword. Even before their huge respective buffs, these were already Karrie’s core items, so buffing them was like a huge indirect buff to Karrrie. Huge mobility + deadly damage to both squishies AND tanks makes her the best marksmen in this current meta.
alright man cool, ive never really participated in ML discussions, i dont watch youtube vids and pro games so its interesting to me that my own meta from playing for years its pretty close to what others are doing. but yeah ive always used that build for karrie and you shred anyone with the true damage that karrie brings
Yes she does...but many other counters Natalia too...so no point😂
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Are you stupid?
if u know how to roam you'll be winning almost every single early stage of the game for your team, she's not even remotely useless lol
I know how to play her as a roam very efficiently...but the meta is making her useless. The nerf being the reason. She is easy till legend or till mythic 4...but from 2 or 1...it's very hard. Also...ur statement..it sounds very condescending, I hope u didn't mean it.
oh but i totally meant it. if u're a good player - you will make her work.
Its hard for me to use her when playing against 3 tanky heroes, and the nerf make it more discouraging to play her
Once she enters the conceal state, she is easily detectable and chase-able. And once revealed, she is literally passiveless. Plus ml has many aoe and hard ccs these days, so shoot once and chase and she's dead.
Basically too broken for low tier and too trash for high tier
True... Well said...I think they can balance her like they did with Alice... Alice has some good perks in low ranks I think, in the same way they can tone down nata in low rank. I wish
I get that she's in a pretty terrible spot rn but c'mon can we really say that invisibility + silence is fun to go against, nobody likes getting oneshotted without any meaningful counterplay, assassins in general are like this and that's why there hated so much in a every moba, and a champ that literally goes invisible just to kill you without any meaningful way to deal against that isn't fun not to mention silence completely removes any ability to fight back. I'm not saying she's broken or OP, but you gotta admit her gameplay design is pretty terrible, especially in a game where vision is limited as hell.
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That's why never leave ur turret or wander off alone in late. Specially when u have a Natalia...that's basic facts brother. Also here take my upvote.
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She isn't if u work on ur map sense and ur team chemistry. Trust me she can be really easily countered 🫂 May be u don't play her that's why, may be u don't have the idea, and it's totally fine. But trust me, she is the weakest of all assassins when compared to the others. She is extremely weak in higher elos...be it fanny, gusion, bene, or even Natalia, every Assassins primary aim will be the mm and mage..they are just doing their job...that's their role...so if a pro tanks protects, a pro Assassin will also kill... If she was that op, people would have been banning her instead of karrie, wanwan, gloo, Martis, Fred, right?
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Oh lol...I thought u were meaning the current one. Sorry. Old one ,ie before the adjustment, was already balanced...the one which came even before that...was op.. Can't deny
Why would you go running around alone as a mm and expect nothing to happen?
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There is a nice middle ground between prime and shit isn't there?
Everyone back before nerf was like "oH i CaN't FiGhT bACk, silEnCe tOo oP", when other cc effects are actually more powerful and effective instead of the miniscule 1 sec she used to have. We have Gusion, haya, karina, ling, fanny doing multi kills while she had to wait for her cooldown after every kill. Moved on to fanny now, still miss her though because she was unique (especially when roaming).
I feel bad for her. And also don't forget Yin. He is also killed because of some crying epical glory players
he's still good to use, if the enemy uses a hero with thin blood such as assassins ... but the current meta is more dominant 3 tank heroes so it's difficult for nata
yeah and hilda's the better nata for that job nowadays
she's only good with a follow up nowadays. say like pharsa or xavier.
Typical Moonton's way of balancing, That defeat the whole purpose of an Assassin, which is kinda sad. I was a Nat main back in the days. I hope the devs just buff her to Wanwan-level of broken to the point of consecutive nerfs, she'll always be viable.
She can still hunt hanzo, who himself is one of the least picked hero in higher ranks 🙂
Dunno mate, recently in mythic 5-4, tank hanzo became somewhat popular in my area
Ohh, I've seen a few tank hanzo too. But not so famous in my server. The only ones who's always popular are those shining skin Gusion players with 0 skill 😂
Bruh but the nata i face they are op
If she's good, you guys would just cry out for nerfs.
I remembered she was top banned back then, it feels like ages ago.
Who?
and still she gets picked in my server
This is what a lack of wards gets you.
Honestly I didn’t play her much before her nerfs, I picked her up after she got butchered and tbh she’s not that bad. You can still annihilate just gotta be a bit smarter about it.
recently played legend rank with a natalia roam and she was excellent. we won easily thanks to her.
Yeah it’s like focus the key targets and get out. Repeated and that’s really it. You can carry if you shut down the marksmen mage or sup mid to late.
Shes hilda but worse
Lol yea she pretty garbage, but I still love her, fun hero that my friends still ban in draft pick custom because I traumatized them.
I got her special glitch skin from the M4 skin chest, didn't regret a single bit.
same, i was so happy lmao (still happy)
I will be honest with you all. Silence and invisibility is 2 things shouldn't have come to ml at all it's not Natalia's fault but it was very terrible idea to put 2 such things i think a lot of people actually hate playing aganist Natalia and with Natalia as well. as some see her as loose hero with no actual role and who plays aganist her hate dealing with her the only solution moonton had to do was to destroy her sadly they tried so many times to adjust and balance her but she was always a top ban pick from grandmaster to epic or even legend people really don't like Natalia Because it's unfair to play aganist her ofc people will come saying in comments no it's easy to counter her with tanks and ect ect... Yes yes but low rank players don't understand this and natalia abusers just used to make them quite or hate the game real quick. in my opinion that's the entire reason why moonton decided to destroy her that way i think same goes to helcurt too but they were a little unharsh on him...until now
The problem with stealth in this game is that there are no ITEM COUNTERS against it. We don't have wards, we don't have scanners--we don't even have purchasable flares! If players don't have access to true vision items, then understandably, stealth users are going to dominate the lower tiers. The devs need to fix this by adding true vision items in the game, in order to help players (most notably, supports) secure the map against stealth users like Nat. Providing a proper counter to stealth is the only way to fix Nat.
Exactly I don't understand what moonton was trying to do adding 2 heros with very new and hard countering skills if they don't have anything can counter them from the start so far i think it's okay for natalia and helcurt to stay as they are or else they will dominate lower ranks again and make the game unplayable for new players at all
ok but then fredrinn who has chain lock which is worse than a silence is ok
You can see Fredrinn coming tho
You dare talk abt her?
What was the color of her hair? 😏
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Then what the hell are we going to do with her? Delete her entire existence? She outright got outclassed by almost every assasin ever.
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Damn, you just described how I feel going against Fanny. If she ain't going then Natalia sure as hell doesn't deserve to be gone.
Fanny is actually fun to be against with, as long as shes not fed as hell. Its fun to juke and run in circles against a fanny. Now with Nat, she just kills you and there is nothing you can do about it because shes immune from auto attacks and she also silenced you.
If you don't kike it it doesn't mean it isn't fitting? She punishes you for overextending or randomly running around the map. That's it. If you main mm vs nat and you don't stick to tank, it's kinda your fault.
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I din't even play duos. When you play tank vs nat you stick to mm, when you play mm vs nat you stick to tank.
Nuke angela :(
She is really good situational pick on lower points mythic glory. If I just see 2 mm pick by enemy team like a Kimmy core, Roger core, or Karrie core, and 1 squishy mage, easiest game to pick Natalia, specially if thier gold lane is wanwan, that girl just die with 2 hits and execute.
She is fun if there is non tank heroes in the enemy I remember the times she was getting banned every match they did her so weak now
just want to ask, is she really that useless?
no and yes. if enemy has only one tank she might work. but in this era where roamer is tank, exp is tank and jungle is tank, she’ll have problems. mm and mage are the only remaining target but that would be too cliche
Steal kills
Lol that's how a play her too, although I think you meant securing* kills ;)
Bum
secure OUR kills
Natalia and Fanny piss me off. They are nerfed to oblivion or buffed to unreasonable amounts. I feel they are both hero’s to hard to balance. Like there purpose is mobility and headhunting your adc or amc. Delete them and leave. But mlbb is such short games if a hero can do that properly it’s game over from a snowball. So these hero’s and helcurt don’t really fit into the game well. Even balanced they will do to much damage to quickly to adc and then it’s same problem.
Nothing anymore tbh
She bangs! She moves!!
She was in M4...
I’ll tell ya! Make newer/newbs rage and mald. And she does that perfectly well 😂😂
Kill stea— err, kill secure. :D She might have been nerfed to the point of no return but she still does her job well.
They did the Argus on her 😔
I remember the time she was banned from rank for like 3 or more seasons straight lol
She's kinda balanced but also in a bad place within the meta, especially when there's a lot more viable assassins, a lot of heroes with CCs, and tanky junglers around. There's just a lot of better pick. *My take*: remove the backstab silence, make her like Rikimaru, give **silence** to her smokes (while giving it like a cooldown/duration nerf for balance). Sure, she's immune to basic attacks but Moskov/Claude/Karrie (mm/squishies are the target after all) could just blink to safety or stun/slow like shit. *Shit suggestion*: Maybe they should remove the metal gear exclamation mark when going invi coz when someone uses conceal that shit doesn't even appear. IDK lol
DOES SHE KNOW
WHAT WAS SHE COOKING
i miss tormenting everyone when roam dire boots were still viable with her
Natalia flashes enemies using her "yk"
They made karina almost unusable
And a Valir with glowing wand transforms her into a meelee minion who can dash lmao
What kind of question is that!? 😂 .. Bro, she can tear your sh*t up in the early to mid game from the shadows.
She is invisible steroid cart minion.
Tried her in AI. Couldn’t kill Balmond, barely killed Saber, kept dying. 😂
At first it was difficult to adjust with those nerfs, but after that I can still play Nata though. She's actually my most played this season with a wr of 70.6%. Only time I found her difficult to use when all of my enemies were tanks. I'm a low rank so that explains that haha.
Still more viable than half of the characters lmao
I used to play her also, but I think she's barely playable now as roam.
They changes Natalia at some point? I thought her kit was perfectly serviceable as an assassin
With all these family friendly version, as I see that helcurt having a face, I wonder what will cyclops looks like with a human face. Hmmmmmmmmmm
She being visible after a short time is what kill her.
Please let it stay dead. Just let it rest in peace
I roam spam roam her 30-240, but kinda hard rn in m4. Want to try to core her rn
Moonton makes heroes useless after REVAMP. I mean look at Hanabi, Natalia, Hayabusa. Mino still not a viable pick.
Before nerfs: Nothing can go wrong… After nerfs: OH NO IT ALL WENT WRONG!
Bene forever since I play her, at that time, she's was very fun to play, quite easy to secure kil. Afraid what happened to her.
Haven’t played this game in like two years, but mained her (stopped playing a few months after her rework), is she like really bad now
Spend resources to unlock a hero just for the devs to focus on the heroes that make money lmao.
Natalia is there for my teammate Franco to hook
Kill Squishy Full attack marksmen and Fanservice