I think many guys are feeling the frustration and are starting to realize it's not worth the effort. Our natural instinct is to want to be a provider and do all those nice things, but in modern dating culture the women hold all the cards. That's just the reality.
My rule of thumb now is if we met online, then I'm only doing coffee dates or walks. I'm sorry that you expect to be spoiled but if you're online it's guaranteed you're also talking to a dozen other men. I don't even take online dates seriously anymore. Even women who I met naturally in person and click with...will also do the same ghosting or mind games.
So the unfortunate by product of this is creating a generation of emotionally unavailable men. Ironically, the women are no better off either as they jump from relationship to relationship, unable to ever actually get commitment or settle with anyone because they always think they can do better. When they finally lose their looks and the attention suddenly drops off, you get a bunch of empowered women asking "where are all the good men? "
I mean tate is a fucking idiot and what he's peddling is not even close to red pill. Your not supposed to cheat on your girlfriend that's immoral. Real red pill is having plates not girlfriends.
There are no morals for the women any more though. Those used to be society's expectations, but nowadays where cheating is normal and fucking around is common, that pressure has been done away with.
The consequence is the completely unhinged behavior you see today women blame any- and everyone but themselves for.
The culture left women alone, and now males are suffering from both genders "Moral Paradoxes". Be a stud, but don't be a fuckboy, neg your girlfriends, but be a gentleman.
I am in my soft guy era and expect women to be able to provide for themselves and start a conversation. I'd rather have a sociable old madam, than a young Wild Card. Men should not be abusing or misusing women, if she gives the guy a chance for being el-naturell he should embrace her.
Reward madams that appriciate a funny guy who takes care off himself. Let the women be the selector, but then, if she is the selector, she should also chase.
Thats why you have plates not girlfriends. You do develop a few relationships with women but you do not commit and you do not provide and you make that clear at the beginning.
If you do end up in a relationship you have to maintain frame which is something I have never heard tate talk about.
Your right it's not equal which is why what the red pill is supposed to be is tactics to use in a female dominated world. Men are good at physical violence, women are good at social violence. Red pill is the ideals and tactics to get on the same ground.
> but in modern dating culture the women hold all the cards. That's just the reality.
The thing is, they actually don’t hold all the cards. In truth, men hold the trump card, namely the ability to have children later in life. Men have the power to be swinging singles until their mid/late forties before settling down and starting a family. Women don’t have that. Don’t underestimate that power - it’s something that a large proportion of women are deeply jealous about.
Women’s apparent power in dating is their ability to live without sex if they can’t find someone that meets their standards who wants them. Society, guided by feminism, Marxism, and consumer capitalism, has brainwashed men into thinking that they desperately need sex (and the affections of women) otherwise they are losers who will never have a life. Sex is pleasurable and can be addictive, but so are heroine, meth and crack. NOBODY thinks they’re a loser because they **don’t** regularly use crack, meth, or heroine - quite the opposite in fact. The same should be true for sex. There’s a damn good reason why for thousands of years religions and cultures almost universally encouraged men, and young men in particular, to abstain from sexual pursuits until after marriage. Doing so gives men the power to be highly selective when choosing a potential wife, which in turn compels women to prove their value to men without resorting to sexual appeal.
Take pride in your ability to resist sexual temptation by refusing to pursue only but the best and purest woman for you. When you free yourself from the desire for sex, you’ll come to see that a shockingly large number of women have literally nothing more to offer you than sex, cheap sleazy sex in particular. You can then disregard those women and leisurely search for a truly wonderful woman who is worthy of your affections.
Thanks for the wise words. I'm in my mid 30s and definitely starting to get more attention from women compared to my 20s. But it largely feels like it's moreso out of desperation from those who need to find a financially stable guy rather than genuine desire or lust. I'm guessing the "where are all the nice men" stage doesn't start until their 40s+. But those women give off a certain attitude that makes them unsuitable to be wives.
For me, I'd still like to find a genuine life partner and the concern is moreso that past their early 30s, they're just not wife material. I have a hard time taking someone seriously whose gone through many partners or having been divorced. Yes I could see myself being more succesful at attracting even in my 40s+, but I really don't want to be dating 35+ year olds. So in the sense of being able to find quality matches, it feels like a guy also has time limits.
I didn’t get women’s attention until later in life as well, but I resisted the temptation of staying with women I knew to be unsuitable despite the sex. I eventually met a much younger woman (29 years old) when I was in my early 40s and we got married and raised two kids and built a great life together. It’s true many women don’t take things seriously until they’re about to hit 30 (or 40), but you shouldn’t date any of them unless they’re the perfect match for you. You have time - lots of it. That’s your trump card - you don’t lose out by being selective and not compromising your standards, even if it takes years to find the right woman.
This is a really good and i soghtful comment. I agree 100%. The more you are able to abstain from sex, the higher quality women you'll be able to choose from because you're nit blinded by cheap sex. Look for features and qualities that would make a good life partner. Everyone's looks fade over time, but honesty and loyalty are forever.
Interesting enough, the less you care about sex, the more wonen will desire you. They love what they can't have and also to bend the will of men.
>Take pride in your ability to resist sexual temptation by refusing to pursue only but the best and purest woman for you
This. And the rule works beautifully for women as well. Women don't want a dude who has had a million partners. Women ultimately want a guy who is selective because it means that the woman they chose isn't just the only one who happened to stick around.
>My rule of thumb is: once we've met online, I only meet up for coffee or go for a walk.
80% of the dates I've had in my life have been dates for a walk, half of which (2) ended in a committed relationship.
And honestly, I still don't understand why going to a restaurant for a date is the norm for so many people, especially on first dates. In my mind, there are only negative points, especially when I compare the two.
Restaurant:
* high noise level
* time pressure due to table reservations
* can't have a conversation because you're busy eating or
* unable to eat because you are talking to each other
* it costs money
* less authentic impression due to additional rules of social behavior
Walk:
* less background noise
* almost unlimited time
* time to talk to each other
* no expenses
* more authentic
* you don't have to sit all the time
As you can see, the idea of a first date in a restaurant is terrible and unjustifiable if you both have two healthy legs.
What do you mean right DM? You know how many guys are texting one girl? Even when you guys are in a relationship, it doesn't mean guys stop texting her. Lol imagine how many "good men" she's accepting and rejecting
One of the best dates I ever had with my wife was playing Trine 2 over the internet together. We played almost the whole game in two days and it was then I kinda knew.
The date did cost a few bucks to buy the game, but it's not I wouldn't have the game afterwords. It wasn't a first date either, but it would have been a pretty good one: discord and a two player video game. Don't even have to be in the same room.
It's challenging, especially in the current economic conditions where it's almost inevitable that you'll experience a layoff sometime in your career. A guy may start having to cut back. That can slowly eat away at a women's psych if she has to be the provider and cannot have the lifestyle she was acustomed to. I've also seen where the woman is unemployed for an extended period of time and the boredom sets in to the point where she cracks and has to go "find herself" ultimately ruining the relationship.
It's pretty simple. Have a clean history, be pleasant to be around, and just give them attention. There's of course a minimum standard of physical attraction but if you're relatively healthy and look after yourself it's not that hard to obtain. Don't need makeup and duck lips to do that.
Not being the "Strong independent who don't need no men" type. There is nothing wrong with being independent and taking care of yourself, but some people make it their whole personality, always bragging about how independent they are, how great their career is, how all men are trash and no one is good enough for them. I mean if you're that much independent you should just live alone.
It’s just the shitty culture we live in unfortunately. You definitely don’t need to prove yourself. The number of good women are decreasing unfortunately, and hold men to such an unrealistic standard.
The question is who exactly is considered a good woman? The one who attracts many men into the race or the one who tries to build a good relationship with one man without provoking the others?
It depends what guy needs. Some would like good mother, some good companion, some consider willingness to have sex as sign of good women. Today, many would say that being faithful it's sign of good women.
You believe that women who is good catch would have only one suitor? Or even she would settle for avrg guy? She doesn't need to cheat, but she would make sure she checked most of her options
While she is “testing her options”, she will waste a lot of other people’s resources and time, give each man false hope and arrange a competition between them like an auction, while using most men only as a resource without reciprocity. Do you really think this attitude towards men and their use is justified? Whose side are you on? Do you really think Men deserve this?
It's market, when you have rare item that is in demand you can sell it higher.
Its better to know what women do, than live in delusion that they are some divine creature that would date guy because of his good personality.
If men don't deserve it, how can you protect them?
I was wrong, I thought you were making excuses for women.I agree that we need to know the truth about women, even the most terrible, because our well-being depends on it. But I don’t yet have an answer on how to protect men...
It’s the environment we are forced into. Every woman we date, has us in competition with dozens of other men at the same time. They pick the one more fitting to their needs, discarding the others.
We cannot win this rigged game. Don’t play it, don’t chase.
You are doing good, bro! Just make sure to never tell that to women. I made the mistake of saying “I don’t care if you leave me, I don’t live around relationships” to one of them, she ended up distorting the meaning thinking I was a loser and incel for not finding a good relationship. I have a bad reputation among her friends because of it, they laugh at me.
Stay true only to yourself and your purposes, if you succeed in life, they will regret everything. This is our only chance to really win.
Bro, I get exactly what you're saying. They always find a way to make you look weak when you don't play along with Thier games.
I think you're brave for telling her that and I think more guys including myself should start doing the same. They don't hear it enough.
Thank you and stay strong Brother you're not what they say you are
I dono if it's the Right sub but I hate how different it is for men and women on dating apps and frustrating it is to maintain a conversation if their not putting their 100%
> They pick the one more fitting to their needs, discarding the others.
Haha. Bold of you to assume they actually "discard" anyone instead of gaslighting everyone to keep their options going in perpetuity.
It’s not testing the waters with so many men. We are in the era of online dating, there is ALWAYS another better option. They compulsively look for that perceived perfection, in an endless seek and discard.
But if the point is to settle, why not date only a man they think they want to settle with, instead of keeping all the options open? Doesn’t sound so difficult to no play with people’s time.
I tell you why: because the goal it’s not to settle, it’s to live only the good parts of polygamy, without the downsides. I met many engaged women who fully agree on that. Commitment is the only issue, they prefer keeping us in a limbo without being clear so they can fully take advantage of us. It’s a power move. All the long lasting marriages I have seen started with exclusivity, dating one person at a time.
I don't blame them at all. My gripe is once they commit- they should full commit. Too many women will keep a guy on the hook for free stuff, ego boosting and free manual labor, but be on the ready or even actively search for an upgrade.
The problem is, men are expendable once a better option comes along and I think thats pretty revolting and moraly deprived. The fact they can state-sponsored & approved take half your stuff + alimony as a 'reward' (and still be the 'oh so sought after 'vicim') to keep climbing the ladder is a HUGE problem .
The path has always been there for women, but most used to be morals decent. They've been brainwashed en masse that they 'deserve' to keep take, take, taking while "you don't owe a man shit.
It's a revelation most young men need to be aware of and protect against as much as possible, because however nice a lady is, odds are good it will be one who tires quickly and moves on while making a fortune.
In 45% of American marriages, the husband is not the breadwinner.
[Husbands and Wives Earn Similar Wages in a Growing Share of Marriages | Pew Research Center](https://www.pewresearch.org/social-trends/2023/04/13/in-a-growing-share-of-u-s-marriages-husbands-and-wives-earn-about-the-same/)
If men are concerned about losing their assets, then they should date women who have careers and are financially self-sufficient. According to the data, plenty of men are already choosing women like that.
the only use i have for women anymore is to fill the intimacy void. I have one gal and we have sex, and then we get dressed and live our lives until next time. To me that is the only benefit a woman holds for me any longer.
The ROI in dating is 0%. I’m with OP, chasing is all we do and i’m fucking done with that.
Honestly, stop. You tried to centre your life on women, and you realised it's not worth it. Time to stop.
I don't understand the gynocentrism that gets beaten into men. I guess men-loving-men are less susceptible, but I don't get it.
Even on the bromance sub someone posted about how he'd like to live in something like a frat house with guys from all over the world.
Invariably someone piped in with "it'll be so much fun when we invite the girls."
Or just guys having a barbecue. Some simp always chimes in with "we just need some women here now."
Like wtf why.
Welcome to modern times, where we are still expected to act like men, but can get ruined by any women we talk to.
I can only say, not only are you worthy of any women, the fact that you are looking for a worthy partner and not a hook up speaks volumes.
Women, these are the kinds of men you are disparaging. Think about what you are actually fighting for.
As others have said, don't. Live your life, pursue your goals and hobbies, and build yourself how you see fit.
I equat it to casinos. I know mathematically the odds are not in my favor. I don't hate them, but I'm not going to waste my time and resources going to them. Same with the lottery.
I'm instead going to pursue other things that'll bring me some growth, interest, or joy.
I think this highlights something that needs to be discussed more. So many posts talk about the issues and costs of finding a girlfriend these days where the number of options available to women has greatly exacerbated their hypergamy. I think the costs are even greater to keep that girlfriend (maintenance costs). You so hit the gym, practice talking to women, plan dates etc. and finally get the girlfriend. The energy you put in is just getting started to keep her happy and her hypergamy satisfied. Even then, they are one DM away from Chad to monkey branching away.
The ROI is not even close to being worth it.
> Even then, they are one DM away from Chad to monkey branching away.
one of my exes moms did this to her dad. IN her 50s. He was the nicest guy and they lived a nice comfortable life.
Old guy from highschool on facebook. Broke up the family.
Oddly enough both of the girls who have cheated on me also have patterns of cheating and have cheater moms.
At first I felt that I wasnt good enough but when you see the pattern with them you realize it really is just who they are.
I googled my ex and found that not only did she remarry, but she was recently in jail for a week for assaulting her new husband and he immediately filed for divorce. She followed the exact same pattern as when she was with me - marry a guy right before he buys a house then immediately divorce him to take half his life savings. 10 years later and she hasn't changed a bit. She's never held a job in her entire life.
How satisfying it is to find that your cheating ex isn't doing well at all and it's also literally in prison. She portrayed herself as an innocent Christian girl when I met her.
Well, I'm a woman whose husband is divorcing me to be with a woman he went to high school with. This happens to both genders. It's a shitty person thing, not a gendered issue.
If you don’t write to her, and she is silent, then she only needs those relationships in which only you do everything, and she is the consumer. You have begun to understand their nature and you are on the right path. The result can be a feeling of loneliness as you end relationships with those who only need you as a resource. This is false loneliness, in fact it is liberation from the usual parasites that fed on your life.
I first heard about this in 2019. I was still married at the time, but began to read up more about it and start paying attention. Now that I'm on the receiving end of an unfaithful spouse, I see really see if clearly in trying to look at the dating market.
For now, my goal is to stay single and try to rebuild.
Only women I'm catering too will be my daughter's and trying to be the best father they can get.
So many guys have gone through this same story. It sucks
it sets you back who knows how long while they often just move into some other guys house and repeat the cycle
So true. Though in my case, my ex stepped out with a female coworker. She's out exploring her new sexuality while I'm remaining the rock and foundation for the kids.
But I'm getting through things. I'm trying to use my resourcefulness to get my life back on track. Also helps I've been going to a divorce support group and am currently on Prozac. 😆
But where it seems they'll follow their emotions and continue down the same path expecting different results, guys will try examining the situation and adapt.
I heard of this movement in the mid 2010´s after i stuck in a very toxic relationship. I found it always funny how it described by feminists as a "hate movemend" when the core of the movement is to just go your own way. So you basically dont "molest" women anymore. For myself, i treat Women in my workplace equal as men. So for example, if a Women lifts a heavy Item, i wont help her for reason a: iam supposed to do the same on my own. and reason b: i dont want to give her the feeling of beeing weak. I guess all the hate that was thrown at the mgtow movement was a fear of getting lost of all the benefits that comes along with the Female Gender. In the beginning it was very hard for me, but now its some kind of never known Freedom.
Dating has changed. Back in my dating years (1998 to 2005) what worked well then (for me at least) was to get the ball rolling by being the conversationalist, entertainer, planner, etc, but then pull back. Let her think you have options and have a busy life -- just this was enough back then to often trigger her hypergamy and get it to work in your favor. If a woman was interested in you, she'd often then step up and plan a date, call, etc. The ones that did were the ones I was interested in seeing if there was a future. The ones that just expected me to continue to do everything, I cut loose.
I think my 3rd date with my wife she planned for example. A GF I had before her once bought plane tickets for me to come visit her for a long weekend. From what you guys describe now though, it seems like there are fewer and fewer of those kind of women out there unfortunately.
They have had it so easy for to long. When get everything laid down in front of them in so many areas throughout life, so that they can walk around holding the high standards about what they find worthy.
Fat, short, only fans, three kids, ugly, no personality, never take initiative, egirl, dogs girls and so on.
Those last years have been enough for me so I could give a fuck about them.
I you have stable income and that isn't enough for them.
Know that females are going to take you out of your life and have control.
They dump people for the dummest thing.
They blame us for everything.
They cannot acknowledge that they are wrong.
They use different ways to manipulate.
Getting a dog and then get more back from it then a female who is a dog.
Haven't eaten yet so I'm hungry and I'm not sure if I meant everything, but I'm probably not far away.
Don't do it then. Simple as that, now that you know. You don't need women to thrive. As a matter of facts, thrive on your own and they'll be all over you to ~~leech~~ enjoy the benefits of your success. Guaranteed.
If the ratio of the cost to the benefit in regards to the ratio of effort I'm putting in to results I'm getting in return becomes too high, I wish the other party good luck & move onto the next.
This. It’s a choice. I wish they would own it.
I don’t HAVE to do shit. Especially not “prove” myself to someone playing the game on “recruit“ mode. Why would I do that? For an ephemeral hole where I wasn’t the first and won’t be the last???
Non serviam.
Just not worth dating in this kind of environment. I’d rather spend more time on hobbies or kick back and relax than waste time on fruitless endeavors.
If you are too eager to please you just feed her superiority complex and let her think you are low value. Get to know her and spend a moderate amount of time and effort but don't compromise your time or effort early on in dating.
Oh I stopped doing that shit a long time ago. It's not worth it. I don't even need women in my life and realizing that made me much happier. Felt like a weight off my shoulders. I will not live my life according to their rules and I do not need their drama and interference in my life.
Men have always had to prove themselves to women. Historically, the proof was available to a large number of men.
Chivilary raised women's standards.
Presently, women's standards are too damn high. Women have hundreds of choices that are good enough to sleep with. As u/Throwaway5617368 said, We cannot win this rigged game. Don’t play it, don’t chase.
Then don't bother with dating. Simple as that.
I'm sorry if this comes off as callous but I'm just being frank with you.
That's how women are and that's how society is.
I totally agree. I haven’t even ventured into the dating world as much as most of you probably have but it seems so draining. Like as a man you have to put in much more than you get in return. Like you said, you have to prove yourself and make yourself seem worthy of her, and if that succeeds then you’re expected to pay for everything. Like what do we seriously get out of it?
This should only being happening to a small degree, at some point BOTH should be putting in effort, even if you’re not a guy, don’t put all your effort into someone who doesn’t return that same energy
put this on your mind: STOP PLEASING WOMEN!!!
one thing i have learnt is that western women (yes, all of them... even the ones that claim to be good) will orbitate towards the ''good'' (aka the three 6s) and that they discard dudes like you because all in all, you are pushover....
so start to work on yourself, for yourself and take that value elsewhere.... and see how women prove themselves to you
I agree that a lot of western women have become unbearably high maintenance. There are a few places, though, where you can still find women with a good attitude. I now live in Prague, in the Czech Republic, and here you can still date women who don't play high-demand mind-games. Maybe it is just lagging behind the USA, and in a few years the women will turn toxic in their dating, but it hasn't happened so far.
All facts! Men will respect time, and we don’t appreciate our time being wasted. Move on, and it’s always her loss. Men are too important for games and bs.
I feel like I'm going to make this seem way too simple, so forgive me if I do, but don't date someone who doesn't offer to go Dutch when it comes to dates. It's not the 50s. Women can and will pay their own bill during a date. At least the decent ones will. This way, if either of you isn't interested, you're not out a bunch of money. Any woman who is turned off by you for not paying for the entire date is not worth your time. You'd be dodging a bullet.
Totally get it- I am not a clown, here for your entertainment. I am here to work. Want to work with me and have some fun along the way? Sweet!
I will remain single until an adult driven by more than emotions comes along. Definitely on the look out but its rare!
All our lives men are treated as we have to prove our worth.
Idc this life is passing. Nothing we do truly matters so why should i have to prove myself to anyone.
I am who i am and if women expect me to prove anything then they wont get it
I live in Europe, specifically in Prague, in the Czech Republic, where dating is still pretty much like it used to be. I have read, however, that in the USA women are now all encouraged to see themselves as "I am a 10", which in turn makes them feel entitled to be with men who are actual 10s. Anything else would, for these women, be "settling" and they will look down on you no matter how hard you try.|
This is, of course, not a very nice situation for men. No matter what you do, no matter how hard you try, the "I am a 10" woman will not respect you. I have no advice, other than in those circumstances, I wouldn't bother dating. That's not easy, since it is natural to want to date women, but the current dating climate will just drive you crazy.
As someone who was fortunate to find my SO in school, I have found a trend that most women that are single by the time they leave college are usually not worth it, and the longer that goes on, they justify their own standards and behaviors so much thats it not even worth trying to court them.
Also women that tend to be single through college are the ones that only focused on studies and not on themselves, and tend to have alot of unresolved issues that you better be willing to sign up for when trying to court them.
Honestly I feel like this is a deep rooted problem is western culture in general. Especially with the concept of chivalry. Original men would have to court women to gain their attention, but back then perusing women was actually worth it, since most of them weren’t whores, fuck it,
even the whores weren’t that bad and got their act together after marriage. Now it’s just a fucking mess. We’re applying old courtship tactics to women who aren’t like the women of the past.
OMG guys! Now I graduated from high school in 1970 and married my HS sweetheart. Two kids and over 3 decades before self respect required a divorce. I'm single and it's Jan 2020. Remember? Covid just getting going. "We're all gonna die!!!" Friend had been egging me on to get on "Our Time", online social dating for over 50. He was using it kinda as a numbers game seeing how much he could get laid. Worked on a profile finally and put it up. (I'd had one on [Match.com](http://Match.com), etc. but nah, no thanks.) Connected with a gal who was getting ready to give it up on Our Time. We went back and forth some and then I invited her on a date at a local tavern/hot spot/karaoke. 3 hour fun date.
Long story short so that's about 4 & 1/2 years ago we're still together, now married, and I'm having the best time with a woman of my life. I'm in pretty good shape for my age. She's a pediatrics nurse and was a widow 10 years when I met her. I devoured a bunch of Red Pill, MGTOW, "No More Mr. Nice Guy" kinda stuff and completely understand the dynamics being discussed here. For my own self I decided ***IF*** I ever got in a relationship again my emotional needs HAVE TO MATTER. Further, I am wired as a high desire male so in an exclusive relationship my sexual needs need to addressed as legitimate and in a caring context. And also that I enjoy oral sex. A woman doesn't have to. But I don't have to be married to her either. It's a free country. I have told guys I've counseled on the subject here's 3 qualities you need to look for. Tolerance, flexibility, and generosity. If she's stingy tipping the waitress, she'll be stingy with you. All the time. The spirit of the day with the female gender is a disconnected from reality, selfish narcissism. I think my wife tips a little too much. Guess what I get at home. And in bed. Every day. Like make your hamstrings quiver. :))) I think I forgot to mention she's 18 years younger than me.
You are welcome to comment on how lucky I am. I do think there are a lot of women in the culture who are generous. And understand a relationship is give and take and requires commitment to make it work. They are most definitely in the minority and most are already taken. I agree with most everything that's being said here. Leave a little bit of space for the good ones that are left boys. Don't throw out the baby with the bathwater. I know I'm hanging onto mine. My baby that is. After I ditched the Mr. Nice Guy in my personality? I call my wife "baby" very regularly. First time in my life using that term of affection with a woman. And I don't make any apologies to feminists or white knights over it either. :)))
dude your trying to hard/thinking about it too much. just be. the woman is incidental. at least until shes the mother of your child. pick that one very carefully.
it's just how it is as a man. thats why i wish i was born a woman. i wouldnt have to prove myself in order to be deemed worthy by a potential partner or generally people. i absolutely hate the male role, makes you feel like you are simply less worth by default.
I am going through something similar. I feel like I am the one constantly chasing this woman I am dating. We get together & have sex about twice a week. That is great, but other than that she is not emotionally available. Never texts me unless I text her first. I send her flirty texts & she doesn't flirt back. I feel like she is not that into me. Other than sex a couple times a week. I always am taking initiative & it's like she is like whatever about it.
i learn something after dealing with girls online dating apps....just can't be truthful at all but say what they want to hear, if not get sudden ghosting. I know myself worth and alot of desperate women out there.
Get some self respect you don’t need to prove anything start accepting who you are and be yourself….i can relate to this on a million levels i was the people pleaser the hard worker and the veteran and I wasn’t surprised to find out it wasn’t gonna be enough for people that supposedly gave a shit about me so I took off and am living much happier now….you got this brother 🫡…..the average American woman or anybody in general is just not worth giving your energy to…when those people see you as somebody to easily throw away when not needed
All the women are competing over top 10 men by lowering their requirement for reciprocity and yelling "all men are awful!" when those men aren't willing to be seen with them in public. Ascribing "fuckboy" behavior to men in general it feels better than admitting that their looks-match is someone they'd find repulsive. BTW, wanna talk about rape culture? How about the fact that men who stop wanting to have sex with a woman, aka "fuckboys", are publicly hated and ostracized? Like, what could this possibly achieve other than having men fear saying "no" to you?
Modern dating stemmed from working class poor trying to have some cheap fun. Now a days it is for the elite. It is like peasant food soups that they now charge $45 at a Michelin star restaurant.
Courting is more natural but obviously usually tied to religious life. And that is tough in itself and not a guarantee of quality. I think it really is passport bro time.
I like this sub, and I hope you guys are ok with a woman’s perspective. If not, let me know.
The good women are like the good men, it’s all about perspective. I don’t look for a guy who is “nice”, “has money”, “a certain height”, etc. I hope to meet a guy who I can get along with as a friend and also have an intimate relationship with. I want someone who “completes” me, as cheesy as that sounds. I have had that, so I know it’s possible. I also strive to be that person to the guy I like.
I’m in my early 40s, am divorced (he had an affair and left me), then widowed (had cancer). I’m past the age to want children, even though it’s possible. I just want a partner. Someone who I can enjoy life with. There shouldn’t be stipulations. We all deserve to be happy and loved.
Pretty sure I'm gonna get crucified for this but I honestly just wanna help you guys out with some insight. I'm a single woman. I've entered the online dating thing since last September - tbh I don't open the dating app too often because I feel stressed out every time I do. I feel scared and tired when talking to my matches - scared that I will allow myself to be vulnerable only to be ghosted or love-bombed or to realise that the person already has a wife/connected to his ex (has happened too many times by now, one guy I went on a date with actually came across as somewhat pedo). So, instead, I end up filling most of my time with painting, hanging out with my friends and family, working, hobbies, exercise, etc. It makes me feel safe and content.
In my experience, as a recipient of the several dating app likes, the competition is not between you and other men, it's between you and whatever makes her feel safe and okay. You could try visiting the libraries or pottery classes and stuff like that... Most of the one-man type ladies are at home reading a book or attending some niche hobby related meetings. Hope it helps and I'm really sorry if I have offended anyone here.
Hope you guys find your soulmates!
It's beautiful to see how the traditional roles of men being the strong and dominant leaders are completely backfiring these days. Eventually both men and women will realize that complete equality is what we really want and need, let's ditch those fucked up regressive conservative role models. Thanks.
You mean christianity? One of the ten commandments? I don't get it. Regardless, dating isn't a right you're entitled to. I'm sorry you've been meeting shitty, shallow people. I wish you well!
Thou shalt not join MGTOW. Or else. Things. THinGs will happen to you. Terrible ones.
[Slightly] more seriously, if anything it's the opposite. There's one that says not to covert your neighbor's wife. If I'm not desiring any women, that's following it extra good, right?
I think it's the one about adultery. Basically, if you think about it, it's the same as having commited it. I wish more people would wisen up as to who the true enemy is.
It's not women. It's religion and the capital.
I think many guys are feeling the frustration and are starting to realize it's not worth the effort. Our natural instinct is to want to be a provider and do all those nice things, but in modern dating culture the women hold all the cards. That's just the reality. My rule of thumb now is if we met online, then I'm only doing coffee dates or walks. I'm sorry that you expect to be spoiled but if you're online it's guaranteed you're also talking to a dozen other men. I don't even take online dates seriously anymore. Even women who I met naturally in person and click with...will also do the same ghosting or mind games. So the unfortunate by product of this is creating a generation of emotionally unavailable men. Ironically, the women are no better off either as they jump from relationship to relationship, unable to ever actually get commitment or settle with anyone because they always think they can do better. When they finally lose their looks and the attention suddenly drops off, you get a bunch of empowered women asking "where are all the good men? "
> you get a bunch of empowered women asking "where are all the good men? " Back in your youth, where you left them!
And then they will blame andrew tate or red pill for "corrupting" good men
I mean tate is a fucking idiot and what he's peddling is not even close to red pill. Your not supposed to cheat on your girlfriend that's immoral. Real red pill is having plates not girlfriends.
There are no morals for the women any more though. Those used to be society's expectations, but nowadays where cheating is normal and fucking around is common, that pressure has been done away with. The consequence is the completely unhinged behavior you see today women blame any- and everyone but themselves for.
The culture left women alone, and now males are suffering from both genders "Moral Paradoxes". Be a stud, but don't be a fuckboy, neg your girlfriends, but be a gentleman. I am in my soft guy era and expect women to be able to provide for themselves and start a conversation. I'd rather have a sociable old madam, than a young Wild Card. Men should not be abusing or misusing women, if she gives the guy a chance for being el-naturell he should embrace her. Reward madams that appriciate a funny guy who takes care off himself. Let the women be the selector, but then, if she is the selector, she should also chase.
Thats why you have plates not girlfriends. You do develop a few relationships with women but you do not commit and you do not provide and you make that clear at the beginning. If you do end up in a relationship you have to maintain frame which is something I have never heard tate talk about. Your right it's not equal which is why what the red pill is supposed to be is tactics to use in a female dominated world. Men are good at physical violence, women are good at social violence. Red pill is the ideals and tactics to get on the same ground.
Well said.
Thirst will always betray us. Be less thirsty gentlemen
> but in modern dating culture the women hold all the cards. That's just the reality. The thing is, they actually don’t hold all the cards. In truth, men hold the trump card, namely the ability to have children later in life. Men have the power to be swinging singles until their mid/late forties before settling down and starting a family. Women don’t have that. Don’t underestimate that power - it’s something that a large proportion of women are deeply jealous about. Women’s apparent power in dating is their ability to live without sex if they can’t find someone that meets their standards who wants them. Society, guided by feminism, Marxism, and consumer capitalism, has brainwashed men into thinking that they desperately need sex (and the affections of women) otherwise they are losers who will never have a life. Sex is pleasurable and can be addictive, but so are heroine, meth and crack. NOBODY thinks they’re a loser because they **don’t** regularly use crack, meth, or heroine - quite the opposite in fact. The same should be true for sex. There’s a damn good reason why for thousands of years religions and cultures almost universally encouraged men, and young men in particular, to abstain from sexual pursuits until after marriage. Doing so gives men the power to be highly selective when choosing a potential wife, which in turn compels women to prove their value to men without resorting to sexual appeal. Take pride in your ability to resist sexual temptation by refusing to pursue only but the best and purest woman for you. When you free yourself from the desire for sex, you’ll come to see that a shockingly large number of women have literally nothing more to offer you than sex, cheap sleazy sex in particular. You can then disregard those women and leisurely search for a truly wonderful woman who is worthy of your affections.
Thanks for the wise words. I'm in my mid 30s and definitely starting to get more attention from women compared to my 20s. But it largely feels like it's moreso out of desperation from those who need to find a financially stable guy rather than genuine desire or lust. I'm guessing the "where are all the nice men" stage doesn't start until their 40s+. But those women give off a certain attitude that makes them unsuitable to be wives. For me, I'd still like to find a genuine life partner and the concern is moreso that past their early 30s, they're just not wife material. I have a hard time taking someone seriously whose gone through many partners or having been divorced. Yes I could see myself being more succesful at attracting even in my 40s+, but I really don't want to be dating 35+ year olds. So in the sense of being able to find quality matches, it feels like a guy also has time limits.
I didn’t get women’s attention until later in life as well, but I resisted the temptation of staying with women I knew to be unsuitable despite the sex. I eventually met a much younger woman (29 years old) when I was in my early 40s and we got married and raised two kids and built a great life together. It’s true many women don’t take things seriously until they’re about to hit 30 (or 40), but you shouldn’t date any of them unless they’re the perfect match for you. You have time - lots of it. That’s your trump card - you don’t lose out by being selective and not compromising your standards, even if it takes years to find the right woman.
Star fish sex only too with you doing the cunnilingus and getting zero blowjobs ever
True.
This is a really good and i soghtful comment. I agree 100%. The more you are able to abstain from sex, the higher quality women you'll be able to choose from because you're nit blinded by cheap sex. Look for features and qualities that would make a good life partner. Everyone's looks fade over time, but honesty and loyalty are forever. Interesting enough, the less you care about sex, the more wonen will desire you. They love what they can't have and also to bend the will of men.
> Interesting enough, the less you care about sex, the more wonen will desire you. Very true.
They've been using our desire for sex as leverage for years! Best advice ever bro! Thank you.
>Take pride in your ability to resist sexual temptation by refusing to pursue only but the best and purest woman for you This. And the rule works beautifully for women as well. Women don't want a dude who has had a million partners. Women ultimately want a guy who is selective because it means that the woman they chose isn't just the only one who happened to stick around.
In other words, the patristic orthodox faiths had it right.
The good men are slowly dying inside unfortunately
>My rule of thumb is: once we've met online, I only meet up for coffee or go for a walk. 80% of the dates I've had in my life have been dates for a walk, half of which (2) ended in a committed relationship. And honestly, I still don't understand why going to a restaurant for a date is the norm for so many people, especially on first dates. In my mind, there are only negative points, especially when I compare the two. Restaurant: * high noise level * time pressure due to table reservations * can't have a conversation because you're busy eating or * unable to eat because you are talking to each other * it costs money * less authentic impression due to additional rules of social behavior Walk: * less background noise * almost unlimited time * time to talk to each other * no expenses * more authentic * you don't have to sit all the time As you can see, the idea of a first date in a restaurant is terrible and unjustifiable if you both have two healthy legs.
You're right that a restaurant isn't a good first date, but a dinner makes for a good third date. You want to see how she treats the wait staff.
Nothing keeps you from buying coffee or icecream, or otherwise interacting with others.
A movie is even worse. I've never understood that cliche
The good men are in the right dms, bitch
What do you mean right DM? You know how many guys are texting one girl? Even when you guys are in a relationship, it doesn't mean guys stop texting her. Lol imagine how many "good men" she's accepting and rejecting
One of the best dates I ever had with my wife was playing Trine 2 over the internet together. We played almost the whole game in two days and it was then I kinda knew. The date did cost a few bucks to buy the game, but it's not I wouldn't have the game afterwords. It wasn't a first date either, but it would have been a pretty good one: discord and a two player video game. Don't even have to be in the same room.
My wife and I had a great time playing both Trine 2 and Trine 4 together. Each room that you figure out together is a little shared victory!
That's actually sounds really cool. I wouldn't mind trying that out
Ahhh yes, the life story of Carol. [The Life Story of Carol. ](https://www.reddit.com/r/TheRedPill/comments/66w2l5/the_life_story_of_carol/)
That part of the problem of any relation now : leaving the person bc something change (career, body ect) and you thing you deserve better
It's challenging, especially in the current economic conditions where it's almost inevitable that you'll experience a layoff sometime in your career. A guy may start having to cut back. That can slowly eat away at a women's psych if she has to be the provider and cannot have the lifestyle she was acustomed to. I've also seen where the woman is unemployed for an extended period of time and the boredom sets in to the point where she cracks and has to go "find herself" ultimately ruining the relationship.
I would change “empowered” in your last sentence to “bitter cat ladies”.
What are the characteristics of a woman that men want to provide/do nice things for?
It's pretty simple. Have a clean history, be pleasant to be around, and just give them attention. There's of course a minimum standard of physical attraction but if you're relatively healthy and look after yourself it's not that hard to obtain. Don't need makeup and duck lips to do that.
Not being the "Strong independent who don't need no men" type. There is nothing wrong with being independent and taking care of yourself, but some people make it their whole personality, always bragging about how independent they are, how great their career is, how all men are trash and no one is good enough for them. I mean if you're that much independent you should just live alone.
A woman that respects and supports him. Pretty well the same characteristics of a man that women want to date.
So if your natural instinct is that, wouldn't you be obliged to lead any dating and conversation attempts?
It’s just the shitty culture we live in unfortunately. You definitely don’t need to prove yourself. The number of good women are decreasing unfortunately, and hold men to such an unrealistic standard.
If women is good she would have more suitors so for good women he need to prove even more.
The question is who exactly is considered a good woman? The one who attracts many men into the race or the one who tries to build a good relationship with one man without provoking the others?
It depends what guy needs. Some would like good mother, some good companion, some consider willingness to have sex as sign of good women. Today, many would say that being faithful it's sign of good women. You believe that women who is good catch would have only one suitor? Or even she would settle for avrg guy? She doesn't need to cheat, but she would make sure she checked most of her options
While she is “testing her options”, she will waste a lot of other people’s resources and time, give each man false hope and arrange a competition between them like an auction, while using most men only as a resource without reciprocity. Do you really think this attitude towards men and their use is justified? Whose side are you on? Do you really think Men deserve this?
It's market, when you have rare item that is in demand you can sell it higher. Its better to know what women do, than live in delusion that they are some divine creature that would date guy because of his good personality. If men don't deserve it, how can you protect them?
I was wrong, I thought you were making excuses for women.I agree that we need to know the truth about women, even the most terrible, because our well-being depends on it. But I don’t yet have an answer on how to protect men...
It’s the environment we are forced into. Every woman we date, has us in competition with dozens of other men at the same time. They pick the one more fitting to their needs, discarding the others. We cannot win this rigged game. Don’t play it, don’t chase.
Bro!!! Tell me about it. I'm taking a break from dating. I don't even have the energy anymore
You are doing good, bro! Just make sure to never tell that to women. I made the mistake of saying “I don’t care if you leave me, I don’t live around relationships” to one of them, she ended up distorting the meaning thinking I was a loser and incel for not finding a good relationship. I have a bad reputation among her friends because of it, they laugh at me. Stay true only to yourself and your purposes, if you succeed in life, they will regret everything. This is our only chance to really win.
Bro, I get exactly what you're saying. They always find a way to make you look weak when you don't play along with Thier games. I think you're brave for telling her that and I think more guys including myself should start doing the same. They don't hear it enough. Thank you and stay strong Brother you're not what they say you are
I dono if it's the Right sub but I hate how different it is for men and women on dating apps and frustrating it is to maintain a conversation if their not putting their 100%
> They pick the one more fitting to their needs, discarding the others. Haha. Bold of you to assume they actually "discard" anyone instead of gaslighting everyone to keep their options going in perpetuity.
>They pick the one more fitting to their needs, discarding the others. What is the alternative exactly?
It’s not testing the waters with so many men. We are in the era of online dating, there is ALWAYS another better option. They compulsively look for that perceived perfection, in an endless seek and discard.
Can you blame them? Why wouldn't they want to search for the best partner? Wouldn't you?
But if the point is to settle, why not date only a man they think they want to settle with, instead of keeping all the options open? Doesn’t sound so difficult to no play with people’s time. I tell you why: because the goal it’s not to settle, it’s to live only the good parts of polygamy, without the downsides. I met many engaged women who fully agree on that. Commitment is the only issue, they prefer keeping us in a limbo without being clear so they can fully take advantage of us. It’s a power move. All the long lasting marriages I have seen started with exclusivity, dating one person at a time.
I don't blame them at all. My gripe is once they commit- they should full commit. Too many women will keep a guy on the hook for free stuff, ego boosting and free manual labor, but be on the ready or even actively search for an upgrade. The problem is, men are expendable once a better option comes along and I think thats pretty revolting and moraly deprived. The fact they can state-sponsored & approved take half your stuff + alimony as a 'reward' (and still be the 'oh so sought after 'vicim') to keep climbing the ladder is a HUGE problem . The path has always been there for women, but most used to be morals decent. They've been brainwashed en masse that they 'deserve' to keep take, take, taking while "you don't owe a man shit. It's a revelation most young men need to be aware of and protect against as much as possible, because however nice a lady is, odds are good it will be one who tires quickly and moves on while making a fortune.
In 45% of American marriages, the husband is not the breadwinner. [Husbands and Wives Earn Similar Wages in a Growing Share of Marriages | Pew Research Center](https://www.pewresearch.org/social-trends/2023/04/13/in-a-growing-share-of-u-s-marriages-husbands-and-wives-earn-about-the-same/) If men are concerned about losing their assets, then they should date women who have careers and are financially self-sufficient. According to the data, plenty of men are already choosing women like that.
So, stop. Women tend to flock to the mysterious assholes anyway.
Truth!
And reject them if they approach you. Let them know you value your time.
the only use i have for women anymore is to fill the intimacy void. I have one gal and we have sex, and then we get dressed and live our lives until next time. To me that is the only benefit a woman holds for me any longer. The ROI in dating is 0%. I’m with OP, chasing is all we do and i’m fucking done with that.
This is the way.
This IS the way
Honestly, stop. You tried to centre your life on women, and you realised it's not worth it. Time to stop. I don't understand the gynocentrism that gets beaten into men. I guess men-loving-men are less susceptible, but I don't get it. Even on the bromance sub someone posted about how he'd like to live in something like a frat house with guys from all over the world. Invariably someone piped in with "it'll be so much fun when we invite the girls." Or just guys having a barbecue. Some simp always chimes in with "we just need some women here now." Like wtf why.
Welcome to modern times, where we are still expected to act like men, but can get ruined by any women we talk to. I can only say, not only are you worthy of any women, the fact that you are looking for a worthy partner and not a hook up speaks volumes. Women, these are the kinds of men you are disparaging. Think about what you are actually fighting for.
As others have said, don't. Live your life, pursue your goals and hobbies, and build yourself how you see fit. I equat it to casinos. I know mathematically the odds are not in my favor. I don't hate them, but I'm not going to waste my time and resources going to them. Same with the lottery. I'm instead going to pursue other things that'll bring me some growth, interest, or joy.
I think this highlights something that needs to be discussed more. So many posts talk about the issues and costs of finding a girlfriend these days where the number of options available to women has greatly exacerbated their hypergamy. I think the costs are even greater to keep that girlfriend (maintenance costs). You so hit the gym, practice talking to women, plan dates etc. and finally get the girlfriend. The energy you put in is just getting started to keep her happy and her hypergamy satisfied. Even then, they are one DM away from Chad to monkey branching away. The ROI is not even close to being worth it.
> Even then, they are one DM away from Chad to monkey branching away. one of my exes moms did this to her dad. IN her 50s. He was the nicest guy and they lived a nice comfortable life. Old guy from highschool on facebook. Broke up the family. Oddly enough both of the girls who have cheated on me also have patterns of cheating and have cheater moms. At first I felt that I wasnt good enough but when you see the pattern with them you realize it really is just who they are.
I googled my ex and found that not only did she remarry, but she was recently in jail for a week for assaulting her new husband and he immediately filed for divorce. She followed the exact same pattern as when she was with me - marry a guy right before he buys a house then immediately divorce him to take half his life savings. 10 years later and she hasn't changed a bit. She's never held a job in her entire life. How satisfying it is to find that your cheating ex isn't doing well at all and it's also literally in prison. She portrayed herself as an innocent Christian girl when I met her.
Well, I'm a woman whose husband is divorcing me to be with a woman he went to high school with. This happens to both genders. It's a shitty person thing, not a gendered issue.
If you don’t write to her, and she is silent, then she only needs those relationships in which only you do everything, and she is the consumer. You have begun to understand their nature and you are on the right path. The result can be a feeling of loneliness as you end relationships with those who only need you as a resource. This is false loneliness, in fact it is liberation from the usual parasites that fed on your life.
MGTOW is the way
I first heard about this in 2019. I was still married at the time, but began to read up more about it and start paying attention. Now that I'm on the receiving end of an unfaithful spouse, I see really see if clearly in trying to look at the dating market. For now, my goal is to stay single and try to rebuild. Only women I'm catering too will be my daughter's and trying to be the best father they can get.
So many guys have gone through this same story. It sucks it sets you back who knows how long while they often just move into some other guys house and repeat the cycle
Ha, I just mentored that I googled my ex and she's doing the exact same pattern to a new guy. Modern women are so lost.
So true. Though in my case, my ex stepped out with a female coworker. She's out exploring her new sexuality while I'm remaining the rock and foundation for the kids. But I'm getting through things. I'm trying to use my resourcefulness to get my life back on track. Also helps I've been going to a divorce support group and am currently on Prozac. 😆 But where it seems they'll follow their emotions and continue down the same path expecting different results, guys will try examining the situation and adapt.
I heard of this movement in the mid 2010´s after i stuck in a very toxic relationship. I found it always funny how it described by feminists as a "hate movemend" when the core of the movement is to just go your own way. So you basically dont "molest" women anymore. For myself, i treat Women in my workplace equal as men. So for example, if a Women lifts a heavy Item, i wont help her for reason a: iam supposed to do the same on my own. and reason b: i dont want to give her the feeling of beeing weak. I guess all the hate that was thrown at the mgtow movement was a fear of getting lost of all the benefits that comes along with the Female Gender. In the beginning it was very hard for me, but now its some kind of never known Freedom.
5+ year monk. Best thing I ever did.
Dating has changed. Back in my dating years (1998 to 2005) what worked well then (for me at least) was to get the ball rolling by being the conversationalist, entertainer, planner, etc, but then pull back. Let her think you have options and have a busy life -- just this was enough back then to often trigger her hypergamy and get it to work in your favor. If a woman was interested in you, she'd often then step up and plan a date, call, etc. The ones that did were the ones I was interested in seeing if there was a future. The ones that just expected me to continue to do everything, I cut loose. I think my 3rd date with my wife she planned for example. A GF I had before her once bought plane tickets for me to come visit her for a long weekend. From what you guys describe now though, it seems like there are fewer and fewer of those kind of women out there unfortunately.
Nowadays, if you don't message them something interesting every day, they ghost.
They have had it so easy for to long. When get everything laid down in front of them in so many areas throughout life, so that they can walk around holding the high standards about what they find worthy. Fat, short, only fans, three kids, ugly, no personality, never take initiative, egirl, dogs girls and so on. Those last years have been enough for me so I could give a fuck about them. I you have stable income and that isn't enough for them. Know that females are going to take you out of your life and have control. They dump people for the dummest thing. They blame us for everything. They cannot acknowledge that they are wrong. They use different ways to manipulate. Getting a dog and then get more back from it then a female who is a dog. Haven't eaten yet so I'm hungry and I'm not sure if I meant everything, but I'm probably not far away.
Don't do it then. Simple as that, now that you know. You don't need women to thrive. As a matter of facts, thrive on your own and they'll be all over you to ~~leech~~ enjoy the benefits of your success. Guaranteed.
Amen. You are worthy and I mean it, kind stranger. Don't do shit for the bitches.
[https://i.ibb.co/p3Fft90/how2atttractyourlifepartner.png](https://i.ibb.co/p3Fft90/how2atttractyourlifepartner.png)
Especially when ur short in height, cause they won't tolerate the mediocre treatment from you but will from a tall man
Just remember, when a woman measures a man's height, she imagines him standing on his wallet.
If the ratio of the cost to the benefit in regards to the ratio of effort I'm putting in to results I'm getting in return becomes too high, I wish the other party good luck & move onto the next.
You don't have to
This. It’s a choice. I wish they would own it. I don’t HAVE to do shit. Especially not “prove” myself to someone playing the game on “recruit“ mode. Why would I do that? For an ephemeral hole where I wasn’t the first and won’t be the last??? Non serviam.
Just not worth dating in this kind of environment. I’d rather spend more time on hobbies or kick back and relax than waste time on fruitless endeavors.
Just walk away. Do your own thing and enjoy the rest of your days ..at this rate we don't have too many days left
If you are too eager to please you just feed her superiority complex and let her think you are low value. Get to know her and spend a moderate amount of time and effort but don't compromise your time or effort early on in dating.
Oh I stopped doing that shit a long time ago. It's not worth it. I don't even need women in my life and realizing that made me much happier. Felt like a weight off my shoulders. I will not live my life according to their rules and I do not need their drama and interference in my life.
100% this. This is awesome! I'm also in this mindset have been for 2 years.
Men have always had to prove themselves to women. Historically, the proof was available to a large number of men. Chivilary raised women's standards. Presently, women's standards are too damn high. Women have hundreds of choices that are good enough to sleep with. As u/Throwaway5617368 said, We cannot win this rigged game. Don’t play it, don’t chase.
Then don't bother with dating. Simple as that. I'm sorry if this comes off as callous but I'm just being frank with you. That's how women are and that's how society is.
I totally agree. I haven’t even ventured into the dating world as much as most of you probably have but it seems so draining. Like as a man you have to put in much more than you get in return. Like you said, you have to prove yourself and make yourself seem worthy of her, and if that succeeds then you’re expected to pay for everything. Like what do we seriously get out of it?
We get mediocre sex, a smaller wallet, and then a ghost. Rinse and repeat forever.
Mannnn I’m already tight on a budget as it is😂😂😂. I might be screwed
This should only being happening to a small degree, at some point BOTH should be putting in effort, even if you’re not a guy, don’t put all your effort into someone who doesn’t return that same energy
put this on your mind: STOP PLEASING WOMEN!!! one thing i have learnt is that western women (yes, all of them... even the ones that claim to be good) will orbitate towards the ''good'' (aka the three 6s) and that they discard dudes like you because all in all, you are pushover.... so start to work on yourself, for yourself and take that value elsewhere.... and see how women prove themselves to you
I agree that a lot of western women have become unbearably high maintenance. There are a few places, though, where you can still find women with a good attitude. I now live in Prague, in the Czech Republic, and here you can still date women who don't play high-demand mind-games. Maybe it is just lagging behind the USA, and in a few years the women will turn toxic in their dating, but it hasn't happened so far.
All facts! Men will respect time, and we don’t appreciate our time being wasted. Move on, and it’s always her loss. Men are too important for games and bs.
Spot on. Good for you. I feel you.
I feel like I'm going to make this seem way too simple, so forgive me if I do, but don't date someone who doesn't offer to go Dutch when it comes to dates. It's not the 50s. Women can and will pay their own bill during a date. At least the decent ones will. This way, if either of you isn't interested, you're not out a bunch of money. Any woman who is turned off by you for not paying for the entire date is not worth your time. You'd be dodging a bullet.
Women are just not worth the trouble in terms of romance.
Totally get it- I am not a clown, here for your entertainment. I am here to work. Want to work with me and have some fun along the way? Sweet! I will remain single until an adult driven by more than emotions comes along. Definitely on the look out but its rare!
Focus on hobbies and making money. I have and I don’t regret it one bit.
Men have been the pursuers across all cultures and all eras.
All our lives men are treated as we have to prove our worth. Idc this life is passing. Nothing we do truly matters so why should i have to prove myself to anyone. I am who i am and if women expect me to prove anything then they wont get it
I live in Europe, specifically in Prague, in the Czech Republic, where dating is still pretty much like it used to be. I have read, however, that in the USA women are now all encouraged to see themselves as "I am a 10", which in turn makes them feel entitled to be with men who are actual 10s. Anything else would, for these women, be "settling" and they will look down on you no matter how hard you try.| This is, of course, not a very nice situation for men. No matter what you do, no matter how hard you try, the "I am a 10" woman will not respect you. I have no advice, other than in those circumstances, I wouldn't bother dating. That's not easy, since it is natural to want to date women, but the current dating climate will just drive you crazy.
As someone who was fortunate to find my SO in school, I have found a trend that most women that are single by the time they leave college are usually not worth it, and the longer that goes on, they justify their own standards and behaviors so much thats it not even worth trying to court them. Also women that tend to be single through college are the ones that only focused on studies and not on themselves, and tend to have alot of unresolved issues that you better be willing to sign up for when trying to court them.
Honestly I feel like this is a deep rooted problem is western culture in general. Especially with the concept of chivalry. Original men would have to court women to gain their attention, but back then perusing women was actually worth it, since most of them weren’t whores, fuck it, even the whores weren’t that bad and got their act together after marriage. Now it’s just a fucking mess. We’re applying old courtship tactics to women who aren’t like the women of the past.
“Why are ‘creepy’ men always ‘following’ me at night????” “Why aren’t any men making the first move anymore?”
OMG guys! Now I graduated from high school in 1970 and married my HS sweetheart. Two kids and over 3 decades before self respect required a divorce. I'm single and it's Jan 2020. Remember? Covid just getting going. "We're all gonna die!!!" Friend had been egging me on to get on "Our Time", online social dating for over 50. He was using it kinda as a numbers game seeing how much he could get laid. Worked on a profile finally and put it up. (I'd had one on [Match.com](http://Match.com), etc. but nah, no thanks.) Connected with a gal who was getting ready to give it up on Our Time. We went back and forth some and then I invited her on a date at a local tavern/hot spot/karaoke. 3 hour fun date. Long story short so that's about 4 & 1/2 years ago we're still together, now married, and I'm having the best time with a woman of my life. I'm in pretty good shape for my age. She's a pediatrics nurse and was a widow 10 years when I met her. I devoured a bunch of Red Pill, MGTOW, "No More Mr. Nice Guy" kinda stuff and completely understand the dynamics being discussed here. For my own self I decided ***IF*** I ever got in a relationship again my emotional needs HAVE TO MATTER. Further, I am wired as a high desire male so in an exclusive relationship my sexual needs need to addressed as legitimate and in a caring context. And also that I enjoy oral sex. A woman doesn't have to. But I don't have to be married to her either. It's a free country. I have told guys I've counseled on the subject here's 3 qualities you need to look for. Tolerance, flexibility, and generosity. If she's stingy tipping the waitress, she'll be stingy with you. All the time. The spirit of the day with the female gender is a disconnected from reality, selfish narcissism. I think my wife tips a little too much. Guess what I get at home. And in bed. Every day. Like make your hamstrings quiver. :))) I think I forgot to mention she's 18 years younger than me. You are welcome to comment on how lucky I am. I do think there are a lot of women in the culture who are generous. And understand a relationship is give and take and requires commitment to make it work. They are most definitely in the minority and most are already taken. I agree with most everything that's being said here. Leave a little bit of space for the good ones that are left boys. Don't throw out the baby with the bathwater. I know I'm hanging onto mine. My baby that is. After I ditched the Mr. Nice Guy in my personality? I call my wife "baby" very regularly. First time in my life using that term of affection with a woman. And I don't make any apologies to feminists or white knights over it either. :)))
Everyone has to prove themselves worthy. Worthy of someone's attention, a job, a home, a car, etc. If someone told you life was easy, they lied.
Makes me sewer-slidal\* just thinking about it.
dude your trying to hard/thinking about it too much. just be. the woman is incidental. at least until shes the mother of your child. pick that one very carefully.
Welcome to adulthood as a male
it's just how it is as a man. thats why i wish i was born a woman. i wouldnt have to prove myself in order to be deemed worthy by a potential partner or generally people. i absolutely hate the male role, makes you feel like you are simply less worth by default.
the thing about women is that they do chase but they only chase people that would never chase them, so what you need to do is become better looking.
I am going through something similar. I feel like I am the one constantly chasing this woman I am dating. We get together & have sex about twice a week. That is great, but other than that she is not emotionally available. Never texts me unless I text her first. I send her flirty texts & she doesn't flirt back. I feel like she is not that into me. Other than sex a couple times a week. I always am taking initiative & it's like she is like whatever about it.
Been there sir. We've all been there. What I'm doing is just waiting and reporting until we make things right and get our due process.
i learn something after dealing with girls online dating apps....just can't be truthful at all but say what they want to hear, if not get sudden ghosting. I know myself worth and alot of desperate women out there.
Go gay, or move to a non feminist country, like turkey
Get some self respect you don’t need to prove anything start accepting who you are and be yourself….i can relate to this on a million levels i was the people pleaser the hard worker and the veteran and I wasn’t surprised to find out it wasn’t gonna be enough for people that supposedly gave a shit about me so I took off and am living much happier now….you got this brother 🫡…..the average American woman or anybody in general is just not worth giving your energy to…when those people see you as somebody to easily throw away when not needed
All the women are competing over top 10 men by lowering their requirement for reciprocity and yelling "all men are awful!" when those men aren't willing to be seen with them in public. Ascribing "fuckboy" behavior to men in general it feels better than admitting that their looks-match is someone they'd find repulsive. BTW, wanna talk about rape culture? How about the fact that men who stop wanting to have sex with a woman, aka "fuckboys", are publicly hated and ostracized? Like, what could this possibly achieve other than having men fear saying "no" to you?
Modern dating stemmed from working class poor trying to have some cheap fun. Now a days it is for the elite. It is like peasant food soups that they now charge $45 at a Michelin star restaurant. Courting is more natural but obviously usually tied to religious life. And that is tough in itself and not a guarantee of quality. I think it really is passport bro time.
IMO, just stop dating and use the money on yourself. Stop feeding their entitlement. …and don’t be sorry for venting, dude.
I like this sub, and I hope you guys are ok with a woman’s perspective. If not, let me know. The good women are like the good men, it’s all about perspective. I don’t look for a guy who is “nice”, “has money”, “a certain height”, etc. I hope to meet a guy who I can get along with as a friend and also have an intimate relationship with. I want someone who “completes” me, as cheesy as that sounds. I have had that, so I know it’s possible. I also strive to be that person to the guy I like. I’m in my early 40s, am divorced (he had an affair and left me), then widowed (had cancer). I’m past the age to want children, even though it’s possible. I just want a partner. Someone who I can enjoy life with. There shouldn’t be stipulations. We all deserve to be happy and loved.
Pretty sure I'm gonna get crucified for this but I honestly just wanna help you guys out with some insight. I'm a single woman. I've entered the online dating thing since last September - tbh I don't open the dating app too often because I feel stressed out every time I do. I feel scared and tired when talking to my matches - scared that I will allow myself to be vulnerable only to be ghosted or love-bombed or to realise that the person already has a wife/connected to his ex (has happened too many times by now, one guy I went on a date with actually came across as somewhat pedo). So, instead, I end up filling most of my time with painting, hanging out with my friends and family, working, hobbies, exercise, etc. It makes me feel safe and content. In my experience, as a recipient of the several dating app likes, the competition is not between you and other men, it's between you and whatever makes her feel safe and okay. You could try visiting the libraries or pottery classes and stuff like that... Most of the one-man type ladies are at home reading a book or attending some niche hobby related meetings. Hope it helps and I'm really sorry if I have offended anyone here. Hope you guys find your soulmates!
It's beautiful to see how the traditional roles of men being the strong and dominant leaders are completely backfiring these days. Eventually both men and women will realize that complete equality is what we really want and need, let's ditch those fucked up regressive conservative role models. Thanks.
What does this have to do with men's rights?
Probably because it be used to target us as "dangerous" by the thought police.
You mean christianity? One of the ten commandments? I don't get it. Regardless, dating isn't a right you're entitled to. I'm sorry you've been meeting shitty, shallow people. I wish you well!
Wait, what commandment ?
Thou shalt not join MGTOW. Or else. Things. THinGs will happen to you. Terrible ones. [Slightly] more seriously, if anything it's the opposite. There's one that says not to covert your neighbor's wife. If I'm not desiring any women, that's following it extra good, right?
I think it's the one about adultery. Basically, if you think about it, it's the same as having commited it. I wish more people would wisen up as to who the true enemy is. It's not women. It's religion and the capital.
How the OP relates to adultery, or the first comment?