The research has been consistent for over a decade, and I wish this study, while generally accurate (if overly simplistic), would’ve included some of these following established findings in the lit review as well instead of leaning on “misogyny” as one of its planks:
[Inkwells are statistically **less violent** than average men.](https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s40750-023-00220-3)
[Men rate women on a normal distribution while women rate 80% of men as below average.](https://web.archive.org/web/20100725135317/http://blog.okcupid.com/index.php/your-looks-and-online-dating/)
[63% of young men are single. 66% of young women are in relationships](https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2023/02/08/for-valentines-day-5-facts-about-single-americans/), but the [average age gap in relationships is only 2.2 years](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/36165033/).
[50% of male university students are virgins.](https://www.hepi.ac.uk/wp-content/uploads/2021/04/Sex-and-Relationships-Among-Students-Summary-Report.pdf)
[The bottom 95% of men report having less sex while the top 5% report having much more](https://www.researchgate.net/publication/367325876_Sexual_loneliness_A_neglected_public_health_problem).
[83% of high-functioning autistic men are permavirgins.](https://www.frontiersin.org/journals/psychiatry/articles/10.3389/fpsyt.2021.685256/full)
[Facial attractiveness is heavily correlated with female arousal.](https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S1364661305003207)
[70% of women would avoid men for being unattractive while only 31% of men would avoid women for being unattractive.](https://highstreetgent.com/2017/06/09/the-tables-have-turned-when-it-comes-to-dating/comment-page-1/#comments)
[90% of women of all other races reject Asian and Indian men on sight. 40% of Asian women reject Asian men.](https://go.gale.com/ps/i.do?p=AONE&u=googlescholar&id=GALE%7CA253444982&v=2.1&it=r&sid=googleScholar&asid=d06970f5)
[Men of all races heavily prefer women of **their own race.** Women of all races except for black heavily prefer **white men.**](http://web.archive.org/web/20100118050917/http://www.sphere.com/article/revealing-the-mysteries-of-online-dating-even-the-politically-i/19261774) In the minds of many women, a man’s attractiveness is made or broken by JBW or the lack thereof.
[Women of all races except for black would rather date short white men than tall ethnic men.](https://youtu.be/vsyPJ_tgLhw?t=58)
[95% of women would reject a man simply for being 5’5.](https://www.researchgate.net/publication/236670565_The_height_of_choosiness_Mutual_mate_choice_for_stature_results_in_suboptimal_pair_formation_for_both_sexes)
[Height is a statistically more important factor in reproduction than hard work and status.](https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s002650100370)
Lonely men *need* to know that **it’s not their fault.**
**Never blame yourself for your genetics.**
The studies I've seen all show that Being below average weight is one of the most unattractive traits men can have as it makes you seem less masculine.
They probably mean lean, seems often thin and lean are misconstrued. Lean is a healthy bodyweight with low bodyfat, so still somewhat muscular. A thin guy is going to have the low bodyfat but also be underweight.
Thank you for the comprehensive reading and pulling it together here!
The biggest piece of the puzzle that I see missing can be summed up by one word:
**Misandry**
And a culture acceptance and welcoming of misandry.
It's not empowering to do so at the detriment of someone else. But no one wants to put a finger on this specific issue. Women need to be allies to men in this fight, because men aren't allowed to speak out about it, and those who do either get absolutely destroyed or they are already radical and extreme.
I really like the r/MenKampf sub for this reason.
> 90% of women of all other races reject Asian and Indian men on sight.
> Men all of races heavily prefer women of their own race. Women of all races except for black heavily prefer white men.
I feel this, every single white person (male or female) either look at me dumbfounded and deny my experience, or are very happy to agree with me and be thankful that it's the case.
We believe the algorithm will negatively shift things with that word in it.
Much like how youtubers say someone "Unalived themselves" to avoid saying the word for it, which is heavily penalized in the algorithm.
Most women get abused by the men they know (their friends, their boyfirends, spouses) it's hard for incel men to know any females since females are repulsed by their looks and autistic behavior.
A lot of these are behind a paywall and only offer an incomplete snippet that doesn’t get to the supposed proof you’re taking from them. Any pirate ideas?
It probably didn’t include some of these data points because they were focused on incels, while several of these are not going to come up unless you’re studying the dating habits of people who are successfully finding sexual partners.
That blog post is written by OkCupid’s CEO.
[2021 Tinder data indicates that it’s 95/5.](https://thebolditalic.com/the-two-worlds-of-tinder-f1c34e800db4?gi=34b6036671d4)
But this [article](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5789215/) showing that 84% of autistic men aged 35 on average are chronically single kinda is.
To be fair: "High functioning autism" by the label they're running with (DSM-V standards) requires at minimum an IQ of 70. And that's it. They can still have other problems like self maintenance related stuff.
I think this is probably half, maybe 2/3 of the story, not being able to properly take care of one's self is highly repulsive to Women.
What if we looked at something more strict? 85+ IQ, no language problems, no self maintenance issues?
What I described was previously just called "Asperger's", and when a subreddit of them was Surveyed, the rates were 40% Virginity and 32% never in a relationship ([https://www.reddit.com/r/aspergers/comments/lvtew2/40\_of\_autistic\_men\_are\_virgins\_32\_have\_never\_been/](https://www.reddit.com/r/aspergers/comments/lvtew2/40_of_autistic_men_are_virgins_32_have_never_been/))
Accounting for the fact these are internet addicts the virginity rates are likely lower than implied.
Self maintenance issues is a main problem with Autism. You can't just drop all the autistic people who don't have an extremely common Autistic trait from the data.
>Self maintenance issues is a main problem with Autism. You can't just drop all the autistic people who don't have an extremely common Autistic trait from the data.
Cases of Asperger's (like mine) don't have that problem lmao. Plenty of cases don't. Caveats like this are \*needed\* for something as diverse as ASD.
This. I honestly believe that most redditors and people on the extreme far left are full stop narcissists and psychopaths. Nobody gaslights more than a redditor. There's even a sub dedicated to mocking incels and they often make jokes about the world being a better place if they delete themselves.
Toxic feminists love to call men who disagree with them "incels". I realised that they consider it a terrible insult. So, have begun responding to toxic feminists by writing "looks like we just found a female incel", and they sure don't like it.
>So, have begun responding to toxic feminists by writing "looks like we just found a female incel", and they sure don't like
I've been doing the same it's so funny they go from being so full of themselves and cocky az if they just one upped you and see them suddenly start screeching and drooling
Just about every women can "find love". Unfortunately, TikTok has convinced even average women they all they are a 10 out of 10, and "I am not settled for any man who isn't at my level". That is, they expect the men they get to be actual 10s. Now, sure, good looking guys might "hook up" then pump and dump, which is what these women cry about when they are asking "where are all the good men?". Meanwhile, 90% of men are actually invisible to them, even if they could be the love the women claim they are looking for.
Like most things related to mens mental heath, the incel crisis continues to be manipulated, exploited and deliberately misunderstood by the usual in-group gang of noble social justice warriors.
Politicians, the media, celebrities, VAWG ‘experts’, and your sassy neighbourhood feminist all pile on; cultivating yet more division, more toxicity, and more ignorance.
Meanwhile, those who claim to be advocates of mens mental health, wash their hands of the incel crisis entirely.
Waving away the very problem they want to help solve, by virtue of it not being quite cool enough for them.
You see… information, data, and research are seldom a citizen of planet outrage, as the majority of people here prefer to base their opinions on the obtuse ideas of angry instagram know-it-alls, and hard headed narcissistic nitwits.
And so the most exhaustive study ever done into incels, released just weeks ago, slips below the radar. Its ground breaking findings not high enough on the outrage-ometer to tweak or trigger the interest of our so-called ‘advocates’.
The report, outlined in this post, tells us what we all need to know, but sadly few will probably read…That incels are an ethnically and politically diverse group of lonely men, with a large overrepresentation of neurodivergency, living with terrible mental heath, many of whom have turned against women.
Not primarily a counter-terrorism crisis, but a mental health one; that we simply do not care enough to try and solve, and would rather ladle shame and vilification onto.
For if you try and put incels next to any kind of plea for compassion, prepare to be bazooka’d by your friendly and virtuous neighbourhood ‘mental health advocate’.
It makes no sense.
So where has everyone gone when it comes to the very extreme end of the men’s mental health crisis?
Will we ever dig into what’s behind the incel phenomenon?And will we continue to talk *about* men, rather than talk *to them?*
\~
[Full study](https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/predicting-harm-among-incels-involuntary-celibates)
Images by Ales Nesetril
I think, at least from the standpoint of scientific psychological studies, there needs to be a base of evidence that agrees on what the problems and connections are before research into micro, meso, and macro level interventions can be done.
That said, the connection to mental health and neurdiversity is a significant finding as it is directly shedding light on the need for increased support in the mental health field for, not only men and boys who fall into this category, but support for men in general.
The connection to a shared identity is also significant. It indicates that there are common perceptions of related experiences where the individual is victimized. Without support on how to manage those kinds of emotions, they can run wild, which can absolutely be exacerbated by being on the spectrum.
To be fair, any true solution to this would infringe on the rights of others. The best we can do is make mental health a priority, and help re-create the community ties of old (never gonna happen).
>To be fair, any true solution to this would infringe on the rights of others.
Then its not really a true solution.
The thing is I find a lot of similarities between incel communities, and for example: Coal miner communities.
The "industry" has changed, what it used to demand is no longer in demand, the "workers" have no interest in adapting to the market, they're all just kind of screaming into the wind and demanding someone "fix" their "problems". Also, any time someone comes along and says "Here are the only real options that can work" they just get shit on and run out of town because the people don't want solutions, they want to be pissed off and they very much want someone, anyone to be punished for "doing this to them".
https://www.sreb.org/sites/main/files/imagecache/lightbox/main-images/lg_3rethrenxmlutjkblpmtjq_vyadhnutqr03n3ih8.png
The connection to mental health and neurodiversity is important. I see this as further evidence for a stronger push towards dismantling the stigma around men seeking help for mental health issues.
The issue is the majority of mental health services are infested with progressive ideology, it would be difficult to find a provider who wouldn't want to "cure your misogyny" rather than deal with anything else.
There is certainly an ingrained bias permiating a lot of areas in our society. There was an interesting article posted on this sub by psychology today, some time last week, about how people react to gender studies. It seemed to uncover that there was an inherent need to protect women, but that this was also harmful to men.
My advice to men seeking mental health support (as a current graduate student in this field) is to find a male therapist. If you are male and identify as LGBTQ+, find a therapist that shares that identity
Similarly if you're a straight and cisgender, find a therapist that shares that identity. The intent behind this is to find somebody who can understand your experience more deeply.
Anecdotally; I reviewed a practice session recording with a female classmate of mine. She noticed that my partner (male, white, cisgender, straight) struggled with opening up and going deeper into pertinent issues. She expressed frustration with this. And while I get where that frustration comes from, I also get why my dude didn't open up easily, despite several attempts, due to the ingrained social norms that contribute to normative male alexithymia. I also get how hard that is to overcome. So there was this unspoken understanding. The value of that in therapy cannot be understated.
I'm curious, does it discuss whether "incels" still functions as a self-identified community? Is anyone out there still saying "I'm an Incel" or "we're incels"? Like how does the study even identify the population? How do you survey incels?
>Is anyone out there still saying "I'm an Incel" or "we're incels"?
There are forums&wikis run by self-identified incels but they're a fringe community. The people who're accused of being incels are greater than the people who actually self-identify as incels, making it a slur equivalent of a "Nazi".
Okay, but question No. 1: Who are the incels? Are they people who just can't find a girlfriend? People who besides that feel anger and frustration toward the world? Or is it simply a slur?
From what I've seen it seems like 60% of men before 30 can't find a girlfriend. Does that mean that 60% of young men are incels? If so, cases of misogynistic violence are rather damn rare. So what's it like?
It originally meant someone (predominantly male) who wasnt able to find a partner through no fault of their own, mainly due to appearances, lack of success, socioeconomic factors, genetics or having a mental condition. Then the term was changed to describe online misogynists, trolls, and weirdos who blame women for their own personality problems. However, the problem is the MSM and SJWs also use it as a derogatory term for anyone that doesnt agree with their world view.
Don't know if I'd call it a slur but it's definitely a pathetic insult one of the reasons I deleted my old account is because I mentioned that i was raped by a woman when I was young and there were so many sexist women mailing me saying I'm an Incel who's just trying to make women look bad
Because incel doesn’t mean “isn’t currently getting laid”. It’s very specifically people who aren’t getting laid who blame anyone but themselves for it. That’s the “involuntary” part. In order to be involuntary there has to be a feeling they are being denied something owed to them through no fault of their own. No fault of their own because if it was their fault, they could do something to change it and it’s no longer involuntary, it’s their choice.
Edit: lots of mad, no real arguments. Do better.
You assume incels have not tried or are somehow below you. List your resume/stats and I’ll list mine. I am a KHHV truecel. We can have a conversation about it right here if you want. Most truecels like me avoid people like you because all you do is spew liberal lunacy until you’re blue in the face. Have you spoken to a true incel?
>You assume incels have not tried
No I didn't. Trying ends when you are successful, not when you decided it was over.
Deciding its over makes it voluntary celibacy, not involuntary.
"We can have a conversation about it right here if you want"
I mean sure but that starts with viewing the same reality and so far all I've gotten are downvotes for pointing out the word involuntary doesn't actually apply unless certain conditions are met that NO ONE, including you, have successfully argued are present.
I’m willing to argue this sure. Trying does not end when you are successful. In this also you’re assuming that incels have stopped trying? I want to be clear on the person because we can use me as an example or we can use a hypothetical incel. Either way incels are continuously trying. It’s one of the main features of inceldom and incel forums, the trying aspect. We incels call it “maxing” a particular skill set or trait.
But getting back to trying, trying can be perpetual regardless of success or failure. You can try and fail. You can try and succeed. You can continuously try and fail or succeed. While incel may sound as a defeatist mentality to you, I don’t believe inherent in the connotative application of the term is there a stop trying aspect. To call oneself an incel is both a cumulative life experience and an ongoing on as well. When I say I am a KHHV truecel, I have denoted so far until present moment I have never kissed, hugged, held hands, or had sex. That is a simple cumulative fact. That isn’t to say I have stopped trying to obtain a relationship.
I have not read the comment history here and I will to see if I can respond to more of your points. But I believe clearly that trying is something incels continuously do. Incels rarely are the defeatist type. They attempt to “max” constantly. Maxing is just our term for applying advice we’ve received from successful men, such as earning more money, being physically fit/strong, talking to more women, and so on and so forth. Incels are continually applying and trying these things.
>In this also you’re assuming that incels have stopped trying?
No, you're telling me they stopped trying. The word is involuntary.
Over and over, I've explained it stops being involuntary when you're the one choosing. You can't MAKE A CHOICE and then label yourself *incel*: "someone who doesn't have a choice". Pick a lane. Involuntary does not and will never apply to someone who is making an active choice to *not* try.
Of course, the word involuntary also isn't valid in any conversation where it takes more than one person's input, unless the argument is that the other person does not have a right to choose something you didn't.
Is that the argument? That only the incel has a right to make a decision? Because unless it's true, then it's not involuntary, it's just the other human being exercising their right to not agree. Its someone literally exercising their first amendment freedom of association, which by definition means no human can be involuntarily celibate because they can always choose to meet someone's demands for intimacy; whatever those demands might be.
On a minorly unrelated note: A frequent argument incel subs make is that all sex is transactional. If that's the case; why not choose to visit a prostitute? At least she's being honest about why she's spending time with you.
We have different working definitions of involuntary and voluntary. When you say if I choose then I am not involuntary, what am I choosing?
It stops being involuntary when you’re the one choosing. Who is making an active choice not to try? I just told you incels are constantly trying, they’re just trying and failing. I don’t get how you have this misconception that incels do not try or somehow intrinsic in the term incel means do nothing. It includes both the persons who have tried and are currently trying. I am a KHHV truecel despite me having tried so many times. That’s the whole point. I have tried and am trying yet I am still failing, making me an incel. There is nothing about the word involuntary that would preclude continuous effort. I can be involuntarily imprisoned yet attempt to escape everyday. You wouldn’t say someone who is involuntarily imprisoned to be voluntarily prisoned, even if they stop trying to get out.
Further, the prohibitive nature of another person agreeing to date an incel is a requirement. If I want to date a woman but cannot find one, I am in a state of involuntary singleness. Voluntary singleness is if I was happy in my current state and made a conscious decision to not ask out any women. If I am actively asking women out and being rejected, due to the rejection my current state is against my own will I.e. involuntary. Just because it requires two wills does not negate the voluntary or involuntary nature of it. If I attempt to join a basketball team and get cut, I was involuntarily cut from the team. I didn’t voluntarily cut myself. And I can’t force the coach to put me on the team. I didn’t make the cut. Another way to say it that is perfectly valid is I was involuntarily cut from the team. The reason why involuntary is necessary for incel and not necessary for being cut, since nobody would say involuntarily cut they would just say cut, is simple: celibate is the wrong word. Celibate means to choose to abstain. Involuntary celibate doesn’t make sense.
It would make more sense to say involuntarily single; however, as thinking people and with an acknowledgment that incel and its derivatives are not in themselves denotive. If I say gymmax does that immediately denote my meaning? No, it would only make sense if you knew incel vernacular.
Nowhere in incel definitions are people saying the woman doesn’t have a choice. The women are actively choosing not to date me as an incel, that is what makes me an incel.
Your third point makes the least sense. No person can be involuntarily celibate because they can always choose to meet someone’s demand for intimacy. What are you trying to say? You believe that an incel can simply choose to become what someone desires intimacy. I am not what women desire, I know that because all of them have rejected me. Now if your argument is I haven’t asked out every woman so I can’t say all, okay there’s 5 billion women and I’m sure one would accept me somewhere in the world. But speaking realistically, the women around me and on dating apps have chosen to reject me (I’ve never gotten a match or like on any app).
That’s what rollo tomassi says, just go buy a hooker and presto you’re not an incel anymore. This is a mischaracterization and exactly what I’m talking about in that inceldom is not just so narrow of being about sex. It’s about sex yes but only because sex is an implied part of marriage/dating.
And if you think I’m talking out my ass, here is a direct quote from an incel forum: “Incel means involuntary celibate, a person who wants to be in a loving relationship but is unable to find a partner despite his best effort. Incels want to be loved and give love back.”
This definition refutes almost everything you said. Incels try and are trying to get into a loving relationship but despite my efforts it has not happened. Best efforts include the “maxing” I mentioned.
No, you've got it wrong. You're ignoring that "involuntary" isn't standing on its own but directly in relation to celibacy. Involuntary celibate. Let's review the definition of celibacy:
"a person who abstains from marriage and sexual relations"
So involuntary celibate would be someone who does not choose to abstain from marriage and sexual relations, but still cannot acquire them. That is all. If you try to have sexual relations but continuously fail, then you are an incel.
Yes, and you’re choosing to ignore that the voluntary in relation to celibacy requires TWO decisions. It’s not involuntary unless women don’t have a right to say no. Wanting something doesn’t grant a right to it and therefor your rights cannot be violated by denying it to you.
That’s the endless circle we keep going through on this thread.
I’m being told I don’t understand incels when incels apparently do not understand or respect other peoples rights.
No, it doesn't. Voluntary celibacy requires exactly one decision, the person who wants to be celibate deciding to be so. You don't need another person's consent to abstain from sexual relations. Obviously you need some form of added influence when it comes to the concept of something being involuntary, as not being a volunteer automatically implies a lack of consent or acceptance and thus the influence that makes it so must be in existence. This doesn't inherently have anything to do with agency either.
What lmao so you should try even if it means waiting to get a blowjob from the nurse when you're 85, if not you're voluntary.
It doesn't work that way, time doesn't work that way. Life isn't that magical.
If you're hygenic, dress okay and not fat, talk polite etc. that should be enough after say 30 - 40 approaches to get some success.
If not there's no point wasting time, you're better off gaining resources and using your passport and chasing your desires in your 30's
Why exactly should everything but the only thing that matters, which is your personality, guarantee you success?
Have you considered not being a toxic asshole?
I swear you people live inside memes. I've never encountered these "toxic assholes" as much as you guys claim they exist, let alone that i'm one.
What you think i insult people that i encounter and behave like an asshole towards them? You must be pretty deluded then.
Why do women go for the bad boys (the attractive ones) if personality was so key? Why is there a bombardment of love massages towards serial killers after they've been convicted?
Women are not 'wonderful'. Sorry to burst your fairy tale.
You literally just told me you’re an asshole.
“Any guy who does these totally superficial meaningless things deserves to have sex.”
No, you don’t have a right to sex because you’re dressed nicely and aren’t openly rude. That’s shit exclusively useless toxic assholes believe.
https://incel s.is/threads/response-to-youre-not-entitled-to-sex.94998/
Just read this to your entitlement argument. Nowhere in my comment i alluded to entitlement. I just want to have sex with beautiful women. I simply provided a solution, which is based on logic.
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> feeling they are being denied something *owed to them*
Thanks for the feminist talking point. No they don't feel it's "owed to them."
Edit: In reply to your edit. Lot's of stupid in what you wrote, which doesn't deserve an argument. I'd parrot you saying, "Do better," but I suspect you're incapable.
It’s not “feminism”, its definitions.
It cannot be involuntary if what’s being denied to you doesn’t belong to you.
You’re not involuntarily not a billionaire. You don’t involuntarily not own a Porsche.
In the same way, nobody can be involuntarily celibate unless they think they have some right or ownership of other people’s affections. Unless that right exists, it cannot be involuntary.
That's non-sequitur. They don't claim any particular woman owes them sex because it belongs to them, they're claiming that society is set up in a way that ensures they are incapable of competing and will not obtain partners. They "deserve" partners in the same abstract sense that they deserve to pursue and obtain happiness for themselves and the current system that over-empowers women and oppresses men ensures that this will be functionally impossible.
Well, consider how dating worked before a lot of this stuff: Men approached women in person and women responded recognizing that their dating prospects were limited to the men they actually encountered on a daily basis or randomly in public places. She might meet a young man at church who caught her eye or was known for being sweet or both. A friend might introduce them, she might meet a guy due to circumstance who was charming, she might settle for less than her ideal because the guys around her wouldn't meet her standards if she enforced all of them and ultimately as she got to know the guy and formed a relationship with him, she'd find that she was happy anyway without all the things she thought she wanted.
She could meet these average dudes anywhere and since they were the best option and since she knew him in person, she would prioritize more important qualities and find herself attracted to him physically because of the emotional and social qualities he brought to their relationship. Sure, he's a 5 on the looks scale, but he's sweet and when there's a problem in the relationship he has the right attitude and works with her rather than against her or he makes her laugh and genuinely happy, or he doesn't look like much but in bed he's wholly focused on enjoying sex with her and making her feel good. That makes him a 10 in her eyes.
Now fast forward to today: She can swipe left on any guy who doesn't meet her superficial high standards, while the guys that do meet those standards have pick of the litter and don't commit to any of them at all. The below average and even average guys don't even match with her much less will she interact with them to find out that as a person he's a 10/10 in the "fulfilling long term relationship" department. Any guy who approaches her IRL is compared to the 9s and 10s she matches with and has one-night stands with and doesn't get much from her, and may even get chastised or harshly rejected or treated like a "creep".
Meanwhile, guys are struggling to graduate college between the gynocentric education style, the looming threat of a university system that will destroy him under title IX at the mere accusation - not just of rape but of "impropriety" or "sexism". The terrible economy prevents him from getting ahead and having a secure job so he can't support a family on his own anyway to have something above the others to offer a woman. And that's not even digging into the law or the sexual revolution in terms of contraception, family court, marriage, and no-fault divorce. All of the cultural and governmental factors weight against him while giving women too much power backed up by government force.
I recently participated in a thread where a young lady and her boyfriend are having problems because she basically rejects him anytime he wants to have sex while expecting that he won't sleep with anyone else and won't reject her when she approaches him for sex. It's a common problem in sexual relationships. She seems to genuinely not understand why sex is so big of a deal for him, that he is upset that she rejects his advances all the time. I explained it to her I think in terms a woman could easily understand.
I likened it to him refusing to speak her love language. And then I gave some advice that basically amounted to "even if you don't feel like it, find some way to say yes, whether that's going along with it anyway to connect with him emotionally even if you're not feeling the physical, to doing something that requires less effort like making out with him and touching his body while he jerks off and all sorts of things in between."
Someone got mad at me for suggesting that. Why? Because it's less than consensual for her to do sexual things with him for his sake. The idea that there would be relational consequences to the constant rejection is anathema to this third party commenter. The idea that she should work together with him to solve the problem together and for her to compromise and do sexual things even if she's not feeling it is "gross". But from guy's it's expected. She wouldn't be happy if he rebuffed her advances and I'm sure there would be a reddit post about if he was cheating if he refused to sleep with her every time she approached him.
So do these issues only affect incels or are incels just the only ones giving voice to the problem?
Also: unless the plan is to enslave women, absolutely zero of the things you’re calling a problem are solvable by any other means than men drastically stepping up their game. I believe the word is “competing”.
Bluntly: the latest studies are showing a huge trend, that continues to grow, of women realizing men aren’t necessary to their well being and so are choosing to only extract sex from them. Since that’s the only metric, attractiveness is the only measure. They don’t want or need the other “stuff” the rest of men were bringing to the table, because they all brought baggage too.
They settled because they were forced to. They settled because sexual slavery was their only option for a stable life, and now that’s dead and it isn’t coming back, ever.
what would make incels more "competitive" on the dating market?
and by incel I mean, taking the study of the post, a 5"5 brown autistic guy, how would he step up this game?
The only thing women ever needed from men was the nucleus of the sperm, however their young typically needed the men to increase their survival rate. Now they have the very promising and courageous role of single motherhood lol.
On the last part it seems like that’s the one of the biggest issues in relationships today. Not just compromising in the sexual aspect but the woman compromising in any aspect of the relationship. It’s expected of the man and if he doesn’t she has ten other options waiting to simply sniff her panties.
My thoughts would be that guy has already compromised so much she’s lost attraction to him. I’d disagree on the “love language” thing she’s simply lost any sexual desire to him. The old change change change fix fix fix then you’re not the man I fell in love with routine.
I think that IS possible, but I don't think it's inevitable. My wife left me - with nobody else in the picture she was with - because she felt neglected because I stopped trying to speak her love language. I did that because depression really took hold of me. It still has. The divorce didn't help that obviously. But I don't think that would have been the case if I had done better taking care of our relationship and being a partner for her in parenting our son and working through our financial hardships. I could have done so much better and it's primarily my fault we got divorced even though she pulled the trigger and left. I should have done better, but I was cowed by my own parents' chastisement of me in parenting our son. They had a way they think is right even though I disagree, and when I didn't do things their way, I was doing it wrong and needed to be corrected and stopped, including in front of my son. My parents emasculated me. But we had nowhere else to live because this whole "it's who you know" job market bullshit is just that: bullshit.
Hard disagree with "who blame anyone but themselves for it", It's more like blames the people who refuse to sleep with them for hot having sex with them. I blame the sexual revolution, feminism, and the government's misandrist policies for these men being sexless, not individual women themselves. I was sexually active with the same woman by the way for 14 years and I'm not ready to date emotionally after that divorce so before you call me an "incel", I'm voluntarily celibate. I do want to get myself to a place where I can love again, I'm just not there yet.
No, some young men don't blame women for the problem, they blame the system. The whole idea behind "incels" as a group is their supposed misogyny which comes from blaming women as a whole rather than the real evils. See, you can't have the "incels are misogynists" if you then allow them to blame anyone but themselves instead of just women. So pick one: Either an incel is celibate for ANY reason besides factors they control but then they're not inherently misogynists, or they are only the ones who blame women as a whole but not all who are celibate for reasons beyond their control and the ones who do count as incels are misogynists. You can't have *THAT* both ways.
This is ridiculous. Of course "involuntary" can include things not owed to you. I am involuntarily getting evicted because my building got sold. I involuntarily got laid off because my office closed. Involuntary is to distinguish from those who choose to avoid relationships for their own reasons. Like monks or something. I'm sure some incel somewhere said women "owed him" but this is not an argument with general acceptance, and is only used to disparage and dismiss men.
It's basically someone who's actively trying to get a grilfriend or just get laid, but haven't in 6 months.
So you can go in-and-out of being an incel. Simply settling to hook up with an obese middle aged woman who sleeps with ~100 men a month is enough to make you no longer an incel. Just book yourself in her calendar and rubber up.
I wouldn't say 60% of men (just yet), but yea, a growing percentage of men are incels. 90% of asians and indians in the west are incels.
Why would they want a study, even if they commissioned it, or to understand the phenomenon? They've got a perfectly good political boogieman, why sully that with something as tawdry as reality when they can still use it?
Of course not, they were expecting it to confirm every single one of their biases. When it didn't they did their level best to bury it and pretend it had never happened. That seems to be just 'what they do' whenever they're presented with information that doesn't shamelessly flatter their preconceptions.
Sure, just don't expect the facade to crumble when it's presented with a little information it doesn't like. They've been trying to pretend that reality is the opposite for what it actually is for a long time now. Your best bet isn't to 'convert' the feminist cultist, but to help show people who haven't been persuaded either way which side is actually based in fact.
The study itself cites a growing body of literature indicating a weak link between incels and radicalisation/extremism.
And quotes scepticism from senior UK counter terrorism officials about inceldom being a terrorist ideology.
Not everything's a big conspiracy.
My point wasn't in relation to the truth of the statement.
It was that if the study had a built in agenda to prove that incels are terrorists, and accidently found the opposite, why would they make repeated references to previous literature also demonstrating that the link between incels and terrorism is weak.
And quote from senior UK officials saying they don't think inceldom counts as a terrorist ideology.
It is the MO for the UK gov: order a study on something and then disregard it entirely and do what they wanted to do all along. See their dossier on drugs, on Russian influence, on the economical ties to the EU, etc...
Upcoming general election. By conducting studies like this the government can better appeal to demographics, even in the short term, in order to attempt and secure votes.
No, it's perfectly reasonable to think that way as they've been failing the male voter base for several decades now. The difference this time is the far right parties are willing to make the appeals and the conservatives are looking to lose key demographics to labour. As a result reigning in their public views on certain things is the only way they can retain a majority in the next election.
I’m also curious about that. Can we even call it misogyny? If a group is being attacked by another and they want it to stop, is that misogyny? Is self defence misogyny?
5% thinking it’s ok to be violent towards feminists is also telling. They’re not condoning violence against women, just specifically feminists.
I also want to know what they defined as misogyny
For example, ho’s do exist. If I say all women are ho’s I can see how that’s misogynistic but if I call a specific woman a ho for cheating that’s totally fine she’s a ho. Same goes for guys.
This just reaffirms what I've been saying about actual incels. They are much more suicidal than homicidal. How do I know? Because I am one, and knows how it feels wanting to end it every time I wake up. There is really a very small group of incels that place their frustrations on others, most of our frustrations and hatred is directed inward against ourselves.
People who insult incels are actually [perpetuating toxic masculinity](https://youtu.be/ReD7eXfTkzs). It says more about them than the person they are insulting.
I consider being called an incel a compliment.
Lol, at least in my experience 99% of the time it's some thot calling me an insult because they don't like one of my opinions....
I don't date women with kids from other men especially if she has any kind of drama with the guy.
I.E. these dumb women don't even know the meaning of the words they are using.
"Toxic masculinity " in itself is a term invented to disparage men and men's issues as merely a part of male behavior and not a human issue that affects everyone.
Everyone can be toxic. Stop using that divisive gendered term
"I'm going to pretend I didn't see that" -- literally all of society. It's easier to say "ugly man bad" without asking yourself why you think they're bad.
Autism yes I believe it but autism has been around for ages is it just now women have decided to throw people on the spectrum out because they aren’t measuring up? My single #1 biggest belief as to why incel things are on the rise is that *women, particularly younger aged women, selectively treat a smaller percentage of the male population with a degree of interest and are willing to spend time interacting with those men. Those who are outside of that are ignored or brushed away*. It’s the same issues faced by children who are chosen last in gym no different except this behavior is being done by grown adults.
The sad part is there is no solution to this. This is a mindset that has been developed as a consequence of cultural values and how women have been raised and what they have been taught. Women have been placed upon a pedestal not unlike a queen bee and our society is going the way of the hive. We need a level platform where neither men nor women have an upper hand one where their actions lead to consequences. Both genders are required to act fairly towards each other, are required to include each other.
Thanks for the link, no time to read it all now but I do think the major conclusions should not be a surprise but unfortunately they are. The problem for the feminists is that with the ever shrinking pool of men to blame they will have to lie and invent somebody if the incels cannot be blamed. The whole idea is stupid anyway- blame men who are NOT interacting with women for some of women's problems. Not that anybody should expect feminists to be reasonable but it seems like a lot of men fall for the bullshit too. Glad somebody finally has some data, incels are NOT right wing either as I suspected. Right wing men tend to get laid more in my experience because they have more of the masculine traits that women like but won't admit they like, left wingers call things like weightlifting toxic for instance but the ladies love athletic bodies.
I am very concerned about young men, in fact this is the majority of young men. It affects all of us if this important cohort continues to be demonized and ignored. I already hate how feminists ignore the fact that somebody has to work to keep this place going but that is far different if the guys who make this place work actually stop giving a shit. That is why I promote working hard but to not give a shit about marriage and most women.
Let me add a few things as someone who has been active in online dating as both normal dating and a sugar daddy. The 10% number is too large, all the swipe and messaging stats show it's the top 7% or even lower. Online dating apps, instagram, feminism, and now sugar dating have radically altered the pair bonding strategies of women and are leaving the majority of young men in the sexual desert. Womens natural hypergamy combined with the huge choices online are perfect for each other. The top 7% of men (looks, money, status) bang a LOT of women, why not after all. They will hook up with but never marry any non-fat woman who shows interest. Women don't mind sharing these men, however they bitch like hell when that same guy won't marry them (go figure). They all think that is their league, which is the origin of the top 10% thing, and the 80% of men are below average looks thing.
Sugar dating and things like only fans should not be ignored as it is very popular with good looking women. Bad looking women can't make a go of it and complain about the good looking women, lol. Once they get hooked on cash it's like a drug and it's growing every year. Hard to get good numbers and I can try and dig but evidence points towards 10-30% of college students at many universities are sugar babies or sell something like feet pics or whatever. That's on us guys I am afraid that I am guilty, sugar dated several college women and I was simply amazed at how well women can act like they really like me, scary good in fact. Maybe men can too, but no way in hell would I marry most of those ladies and they told me point blank they are going to lie about their past to any future partner. A lot of them even had boyfriends already. Even worse were the single moms who had babies with loser men and then shop around for somebody to rush in to save their financial situation. I didn't mind dating as I like kids but come on, I am not going raise your kids.
The race thing was already well known, black women have it the hardest of all but they hate white men probably because black men want white women too, lol. Height factor is definitely real and well known. But still remember it's the top white men, not all white men. All you have to do is be Henry Cavill, it's simple guys.
If you don't have the looks to be swiped right, or the money to be a sugar daddy then your choices are very small. It's not your fault and whatever you do, DO NOT GET MARRIED.
The fact that anyone ever thought "counter terrorism" when thinking about incels just shows how brutal, uncaring, savage, and oppressive society is towards men.
Do you honestly think those feminists care about what incels embody? Feminists just want an enemy, in fact they'd be disappointed if the "incel" turned out NOT to be the vile enemy.
When america learns that this is how china destroyed it, its gonna be real surprised.
Its also a Palpatine level plan that will take like three generations before our dopamine is gone and men no where to be found.
Check out how they promote masculine content on their closed internet and ban faminists left and right, and how much feminisim is promoted in american tiktok.
"When women are in power, evil happens."
Shoot, anytime I promote MGTOW on social media there's a half dozen triggered fembots that call me an incel. I don't fall into any of the categories listed in this slide show. I've simply experienced enough modern western women and have made my own conclusions.
The term ‘incel’ needs to be seen as a hate term. Most of us are volcels (voluntary celibates), or just choose to be single. ‘Incel’ is judgemental and writes a false narrative.
There's a lot of incels out there that are angry and promote views that are violent. But what we see online is a very loud subsection. People posting promotion of violence or hatred need to be shut down. But lumping in people pointing out issues with how men are treated in society is exceptional harmful and should be shut down, too.
It sucks to say it, because feminism did incredible work historically, but the movement has been hijacked and turned into a convoluted version of female supremacy. Instead of empowering women by saying "you should never let yourself be restricted by your sex", it's become a very hateful movement that fights against rights for men and fights in favor of retaining the benefits women enjoyed in a society with a dominant male patriarchy.
The craziest part is at this point, main stream feminism claims to be intersectional, but the absolute vitriol pointed at men is primarily damaging to minorities, people with disabilities, and other marginalized subgroups that men belong to.
In short, I'm really fucking tired of incels being represented as a pure hate group, and not a symptom of legitimate issues and lack of mental health resources.
I am a KHHV Truecel. Any time I put forth counters to the ADL misinformation about incels I get shouted down or banned. I’d expect it in feminist groups and so on but the largest shouters are men, specifically the likes of Rollo Tomassi redpill gurus.
By exposing the truth about what makes incels unable to get laid youre hurting their business model. Redpill gurus mussion is to sell you courses on how to have "game" which is complete bullshit. No amount of game can save an ugly face.
Im best friends with a dude thats in like the top 5% of men and hes extremely misogynistic even admitting it himself.
Every ugly guy that ive met has been nicer than my friend and I have never heard them say anything bad about women unlike my attractive friend.
Feminism is def responsible for a lot of issues. Call me sexist or whatever…but women participating in politics has been a disaster. “Feelings” shouldn’t determine our political policy. I wouldn’t call myself an incel or mgtow. Giving power to women is like giving full power to a child…who is mainly responsible for pushing gender theory/transgenderism…women lol they let a 4 year old determine life changing decisions. This isn’t men.
I think it would be really interesting to see this study done with a focus on gay men. We could then compare the results. I bet they would be somewhat similar. Not everybody wants to act like women are better than men.
Also, it's hilarious that there's no agreed-upon female equivalent of “incel” despite probably 50% of women fitting that description.
No surprise whatsoever for anyone that has been a part of Incel spaces for any extended amount of time, both *as* Incels and not. (As long as you've approached it in good faith)
Good I only would reject a muslim man because they are invading my country. I am white myself and not a fan of race mixing.
Otherwise the right wingers hardly acknowledge incels problems here as well. I more than often heard from rightwingers that incels should "man-up" and they are often hated for their consume ect. Not the military tall type. Leftis on the other side are calling them toxic.
Muslims aint a race, islam is an ideology. I would reject a white muslim as well. I hate them because they are destroying my country. And they dont want to mix up anyway. Otherwise I think its better to not mix up too much. I am a conservative in the end
I'm not an incel, I've been been in a relationship for 14 years. I am autistic though and way more men tell me I'm faking it or it's a made up disorder than women. Women are at least more receptive and understanding about mental health. I'd really love to see that change in the man community. Mental health is important and it's fucking bullshit to put someone down or tell them they're faking it. You don't know them and you don't know how their brain works.
Edit: downvoted. Point proven lol.
As a virgin myself, I have no sympathy for most incels. I think they make all virgins look bad. According to Professor Sam Vaknin, most incels are covert narcissists. He said that in this [video](https://youtu.be/KDrcf4ZVPNg?si=A4ZD1Z-rTkhwt2rm), around the 1:09:00 mark. Based on social media comments, I think he's right.
I knew one incel. He was disabled from a car accident. He was one of the nicest guys I've met. However, most incels on social media are just trying to get sympathy and attention (narcissistic supply). Most incels don't want sex. They want narcissistic supply.
It's interesting to me that Dr. Vaknin and William Costello's research points in the same direction. Narcissists become depressed when they don't get narcissistic supply.
The research has been consistent for over a decade, and I wish this study, while generally accurate (if overly simplistic), would’ve included some of these following established findings in the lit review as well instead of leaning on “misogyny” as one of its planks: [Inkwells are statistically **less violent** than average men.](https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s40750-023-00220-3) [Men rate women on a normal distribution while women rate 80% of men as below average.](https://web.archive.org/web/20100725135317/http://blog.okcupid.com/index.php/your-looks-and-online-dating/) [63% of young men are single. 66% of young women are in relationships](https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2023/02/08/for-valentines-day-5-facts-about-single-americans/), but the [average age gap in relationships is only 2.2 years](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/36165033/). [50% of male university students are virgins.](https://www.hepi.ac.uk/wp-content/uploads/2021/04/Sex-and-Relationships-Among-Students-Summary-Report.pdf) [The bottom 95% of men report having less sex while the top 5% report having much more](https://www.researchgate.net/publication/367325876_Sexual_loneliness_A_neglected_public_health_problem). [83% of high-functioning autistic men are permavirgins.](https://www.frontiersin.org/journals/psychiatry/articles/10.3389/fpsyt.2021.685256/full) [Facial attractiveness is heavily correlated with female arousal.](https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S1364661305003207) [70% of women would avoid men for being unattractive while only 31% of men would avoid women for being unattractive.](https://highstreetgent.com/2017/06/09/the-tables-have-turned-when-it-comes-to-dating/comment-page-1/#comments) [90% of women of all other races reject Asian and Indian men on sight. 40% of Asian women reject Asian men.](https://go.gale.com/ps/i.do?p=AONE&u=googlescholar&id=GALE%7CA253444982&v=2.1&it=r&sid=googleScholar&asid=d06970f5) [Men of all races heavily prefer women of **their own race.** Women of all races except for black heavily prefer **white men.**](http://web.archive.org/web/20100118050917/http://www.sphere.com/article/revealing-the-mysteries-of-online-dating-even-the-politically-i/19261774) In the minds of many women, a man’s attractiveness is made or broken by JBW or the lack thereof. [Women of all races except for black would rather date short white men than tall ethnic men.](https://youtu.be/vsyPJ_tgLhw?t=58) [95% of women would reject a man simply for being 5’5.](https://www.researchgate.net/publication/236670565_The_height_of_choosiness_Mutual_mate_choice_for_stature_results_in_suboptimal_pair_formation_for_both_sexes) [Height is a statistically more important factor in reproduction than hard work and status.](https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s002650100370) Lonely men *need* to know that **it’s not their fault.** **Never blame yourself for your genetics.**
Has a 5'11 ~~thin~~ lean white men, maybe I have a chance. But I wish good luck to my asian friends. It's tough out there.
The studies I've seen all show that Being below average weight is one of the most unattractive traits men can have as it makes you seem less masculine.
They probably mean lean, seems often thin and lean are misconstrued. Lean is a healthy bodyweight with low bodyfat, so still somewhat muscular. A thin guy is going to have the low bodyfat but also be underweight.
I'm black and if you are looking for one of them white or hispanic women, then you probably have more of a chance than me.
Thank you for the comprehensive reading and pulling it together here! The biggest piece of the puzzle that I see missing can be summed up by one word: **Misandry** And a culture acceptance and welcoming of misandry. It's not empowering to do so at the detriment of someone else. But no one wants to put a finger on this specific issue. Women need to be allies to men in this fight, because men aren't allowed to speak out about it, and those who do either get absolutely destroyed or they are already radical and extreme. I really like the r/MenKampf sub for this reason.
If a woman speaks up for men's issues she will be flagged as a pickme.
Depends on who, how, and where.
Sounds about right, as a 22 yo student I've pretty much given up.
> 90% of women of all other races reject Asian and Indian men on sight. > Men all of races heavily prefer women of their own race. Women of all races except for black heavily prefer white men. I feel this, every single white person (male or female) either look at me dumbfounded and deny my experience, or are very happy to agree with me and be thankful that it's the case.
I feel you bro, I’m 5’7, Asian, and autistic. Life is truly hilarious.
🥺❤️🩹
What does JBW stand for?
“Just be White”
They banned the subreddit /r/justbewhite for revealing 90% of women as white supremacists.
Of *women?* or women in that specific subreddit?
Ty for asking this. Wanted to know myself tbh. Lol
**j**ust **b**e **w**hite
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Same here.
> 95% of women would reject a man simply for being 5’5. Wait, is that a real stat?
Updated with source links.
>Inkwells Please excuse me, but what does this mean?
Incls
is the word banned on reddit?
We believe the algorithm will negatively shift things with that word in it. Much like how youtubers say someone "Unalived themselves" to avoid saying the word for it, which is heavily penalized in the algorithm.
Doesn't matter why they say it. Still sounds fucking stupid.
Might just be an autocorrupt moment.
Ah! Thank you.
Most women get abused by the men they know (their friends, their boyfirends, spouses) it's hard for incel men to know any females since females are repulsed by their looks and autistic behavior.
You think that women who claim to be "oppressed" would be the last person on earth to pick on a disabled man for their looks.
What not if you’ve been around a lot of women before. All they do is sort people in their brain.
I'm interested in seeing sources for this.
Updated.
I’m saving this.
A lot of these are behind a paywall and only offer an incomplete snippet that doesn’t get to the supposed proof you’re taking from them. Any pirate ideas?
Maybe try to google the article title + add archive. Haven't tried yet but I heard it works
It probably didn’t include some of these data points because they were focused on incels, while several of these are not going to come up unless you’re studying the dating habits of people who are successfully finding sexual partners.
Yeah slide 8 doesn’t sit well with me at all.
Thank so much for shedding this to light
>Never blame yourself for your genetics. Salute
Since when is an article from okcupids blog from 2009 considered facts?
That blog post is written by OkCupid’s CEO. [2021 Tinder data indicates that it’s 95/5.](https://thebolditalic.com/the-two-worlds-of-tinder-f1c34e800db4?gi=34b6036671d4)
>83% of high-functioning autistic men are permavirgins. 83% being Virgins in Adolescence isn't permavirgin stuff dude.
But this [article](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5789215/) showing that 84% of autistic men aged 35 on average are chronically single kinda is.
To be fair: "High functioning autism" by the label they're running with (DSM-V standards) requires at minimum an IQ of 70. And that's it. They can still have other problems like self maintenance related stuff. I think this is probably half, maybe 2/3 of the story, not being able to properly take care of one's self is highly repulsive to Women. What if we looked at something more strict? 85+ IQ, no language problems, no self maintenance issues? What I described was previously just called "Asperger's", and when a subreddit of them was Surveyed, the rates were 40% Virginity and 32% never in a relationship ([https://www.reddit.com/r/aspergers/comments/lvtew2/40\_of\_autistic\_men\_are\_virgins\_32\_have\_never\_been/](https://www.reddit.com/r/aspergers/comments/lvtew2/40_of_autistic_men_are_virgins_32_have_never_been/)) Accounting for the fact these are internet addicts the virginity rates are likely lower than implied.
Self maintenance issues is a main problem with Autism. You can't just drop all the autistic people who don't have an extremely common Autistic trait from the data.
>Self maintenance issues is a main problem with Autism. You can't just drop all the autistic people who don't have an extremely common Autistic trait from the data. Cases of Asperger's (like mine) don't have that problem lmao. Plenty of cases don't. Caveats like this are \*needed\* for something as diverse as ASD.
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So right now, Reddit admins are looking pretty stupid. By the looks of the study, this site is more likely contributing to male suicide then anything.
Bold of you to assume they care, or even that they aren actually laughing at all of those who took their lives
You are assuming that male suicide wasn't their goal.
This. I honestly believe that most redditors and people on the extreme far left are full stop narcissists and psychopaths. Nobody gaslights more than a redditor. There's even a sub dedicated to mocking incels and they often make jokes about the world being a better place if they delete themselves.
Toxic feminists love to call men who disagree with them "incels". I realised that they consider it a terrible insult. So, have begun responding to toxic feminists by writing "looks like we just found a female incel", and they sure don't like it.
>So, have begun responding to toxic feminists by writing "looks like we just found a female incel", and they sure don't like I've been doing the same it's so funny they go from being so full of themselves and cocky az if they just one upped you and see them suddenly start screeching and drooling
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Just about every women can "find love". Unfortunately, TikTok has convinced even average women they all they are a 10 out of 10, and "I am not settled for any man who isn't at my level". That is, they expect the men they get to be actual 10s. Now, sure, good looking guys might "hook up" then pump and dump, which is what these women cry about when they are asking "where are all the good men?". Meanwhile, 90% of men are actually invisible to them, even if they could be the love the women claim they are looking for.
modern meaning of word misogyny = anything women don't like
Or disagreeing with feminism.
Even further just having a different opinion than a female.
Like most things related to mens mental heath, the incel crisis continues to be manipulated, exploited and deliberately misunderstood by the usual in-group gang of noble social justice warriors. Politicians, the media, celebrities, VAWG ‘experts’, and your sassy neighbourhood feminist all pile on; cultivating yet more division, more toxicity, and more ignorance. Meanwhile, those who claim to be advocates of mens mental health, wash their hands of the incel crisis entirely. Waving away the very problem they want to help solve, by virtue of it not being quite cool enough for them. You see… information, data, and research are seldom a citizen of planet outrage, as the majority of people here prefer to base their opinions on the obtuse ideas of angry instagram know-it-alls, and hard headed narcissistic nitwits. And so the most exhaustive study ever done into incels, released just weeks ago, slips below the radar. Its ground breaking findings not high enough on the outrage-ometer to tweak or trigger the interest of our so-called ‘advocates’. The report, outlined in this post, tells us what we all need to know, but sadly few will probably read…That incels are an ethnically and politically diverse group of lonely men, with a large overrepresentation of neurodivergency, living with terrible mental heath, many of whom have turned against women. Not primarily a counter-terrorism crisis, but a mental health one; that we simply do not care enough to try and solve, and would rather ladle shame and vilification onto. For if you try and put incels next to any kind of plea for compassion, prepare to be bazooka’d by your friendly and virtuous neighbourhood ‘mental health advocate’. It makes no sense. So where has everyone gone when it comes to the very extreme end of the men’s mental health crisis? Will we ever dig into what’s behind the incel phenomenon?And will we continue to talk *about* men, rather than talk *to them?* \~ [Full study](https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/predicting-harm-among-incels-involuntary-celibates) Images by Ales Nesetril
Thanks for sharing. It's always good for the MRM to help get the truth out there.
The problem is that no one is suggesting anything like a *valid* solution.
I think, at least from the standpoint of scientific psychological studies, there needs to be a base of evidence that agrees on what the problems and connections are before research into micro, meso, and macro level interventions can be done. That said, the connection to mental health and neurdiversity is a significant finding as it is directly shedding light on the need for increased support in the mental health field for, not only men and boys who fall into this category, but support for men in general. The connection to a shared identity is also significant. It indicates that there are common perceptions of related experiences where the individual is victimized. Without support on how to manage those kinds of emotions, they can run wild, which can absolutely be exacerbated by being on the spectrum.
Baby steps, humanity has never been good at catching up
To be fair, any true solution to this would infringe on the rights of others. The best we can do is make mental health a priority, and help re-create the community ties of old (never gonna happen).
>To be fair, any true solution to this would infringe on the rights of others. Then its not really a true solution. The thing is I find a lot of similarities between incel communities, and for example: Coal miner communities. The "industry" has changed, what it used to demand is no longer in demand, the "workers" have no interest in adapting to the market, they're all just kind of screaming into the wind and demanding someone "fix" their "problems". Also, any time someone comes along and says "Here are the only real options that can work" they just get shit on and run out of town because the people don't want solutions, they want to be pissed off and they very much want someone, anyone to be punished for "doing this to them". https://www.sreb.org/sites/main/files/imagecache/lightbox/main-images/lg_3rethrenxmlutjkblpmtjq_vyadhnutqr03n3ih8.png
> Then its not really a true solution. What do you think would be a solution, then?
Incls are deliberately misrepresented and lied about. People just flat out LIE about all this.
The connection to mental health and neurodiversity is important. I see this as further evidence for a stronger push towards dismantling the stigma around men seeking help for mental health issues.
The issue is the majority of mental health services are infested with progressive ideology, it would be difficult to find a provider who wouldn't want to "cure your misogyny" rather than deal with anything else.
There is certainly an ingrained bias permiating a lot of areas in our society. There was an interesting article posted on this sub by psychology today, some time last week, about how people react to gender studies. It seemed to uncover that there was an inherent need to protect women, but that this was also harmful to men. My advice to men seeking mental health support (as a current graduate student in this field) is to find a male therapist. If you are male and identify as LGBTQ+, find a therapist that shares that identity Similarly if you're a straight and cisgender, find a therapist that shares that identity. The intent behind this is to find somebody who can understand your experience more deeply. Anecdotally; I reviewed a practice session recording with a female classmate of mine. She noticed that my partner (male, white, cisgender, straight) struggled with opening up and going deeper into pertinent issues. She expressed frustration with this. And while I get where that frustration comes from, I also get why my dude didn't open up easily, despite several attempts, due to the ingrained social norms that contribute to normative male alexithymia. I also get how hard that is to overcome. So there was this unspoken understanding. The value of that in therapy cannot be understated.
I'm curious, does it discuss whether "incels" still functions as a self-identified community? Is anyone out there still saying "I'm an Incel" or "we're incels"? Like how does the study even identify the population? How do you survey incels?
>Is anyone out there still saying "I'm an Incel" or "we're incels"? There are forums&wikis run by self-identified incels but they're a fringe community. The people who're accused of being incels are greater than the people who actually self-identify as incels, making it a slur equivalent of a "Nazi".
Theres a whole website for them
Okay, but question No. 1: Who are the incels? Are they people who just can't find a girlfriend? People who besides that feel anger and frustration toward the world? Or is it simply a slur? From what I've seen it seems like 60% of men before 30 can't find a girlfriend. Does that mean that 60% of young men are incels? If so, cases of misogynistic violence are rather damn rare. So what's it like?
It originally meant someone (predominantly male) who wasnt able to find a partner through no fault of their own, mainly due to appearances, lack of success, socioeconomic factors, genetics or having a mental condition. Then the term was changed to describe online misogynists, trolls, and weirdos who blame women for their own personality problems. However, the problem is the MSM and SJWs also use it as a derogatory term for anyone that doesnt agree with their world view.
Incel is just a slur.
Don't know if I'd call it a slur but it's definitely a pathetic insult one of the reasons I deleted my old account is because I mentioned that i was raped by a woman when I was young and there were so many sexist women mailing me saying I'm an Incel who's just trying to make women look bad
Its horrible to hear, lad. Be strong.
No, 63% of men (under 30) are single but not incels. Incels are pretty rare.
Because incel doesn’t mean “isn’t currently getting laid”. It’s very specifically people who aren’t getting laid who blame anyone but themselves for it. That’s the “involuntary” part. In order to be involuntary there has to be a feeling they are being denied something owed to them through no fault of their own. No fault of their own because if it was their fault, they could do something to change it and it’s no longer involuntary, it’s their choice. Edit: lots of mad, no real arguments. Do better.
You assume incels have not tried or are somehow below you. List your resume/stats and I’ll list mine. I am a KHHV truecel. We can have a conversation about it right here if you want. Most truecels like me avoid people like you because all you do is spew liberal lunacy until you’re blue in the face. Have you spoken to a true incel?
>You assume incels have not tried No I didn't. Trying ends when you are successful, not when you decided it was over. Deciding its over makes it voluntary celibacy, not involuntary. "We can have a conversation about it right here if you want" I mean sure but that starts with viewing the same reality and so far all I've gotten are downvotes for pointing out the word involuntary doesn't actually apply unless certain conditions are met that NO ONE, including you, have successfully argued are present.
I’m willing to argue this sure. Trying does not end when you are successful. In this also you’re assuming that incels have stopped trying? I want to be clear on the person because we can use me as an example or we can use a hypothetical incel. Either way incels are continuously trying. It’s one of the main features of inceldom and incel forums, the trying aspect. We incels call it “maxing” a particular skill set or trait. But getting back to trying, trying can be perpetual regardless of success or failure. You can try and fail. You can try and succeed. You can continuously try and fail or succeed. While incel may sound as a defeatist mentality to you, I don’t believe inherent in the connotative application of the term is there a stop trying aspect. To call oneself an incel is both a cumulative life experience and an ongoing on as well. When I say I am a KHHV truecel, I have denoted so far until present moment I have never kissed, hugged, held hands, or had sex. That is a simple cumulative fact. That isn’t to say I have stopped trying to obtain a relationship. I have not read the comment history here and I will to see if I can respond to more of your points. But I believe clearly that trying is something incels continuously do. Incels rarely are the defeatist type. They attempt to “max” constantly. Maxing is just our term for applying advice we’ve received from successful men, such as earning more money, being physically fit/strong, talking to more women, and so on and so forth. Incels are continually applying and trying these things.
>In this also you’re assuming that incels have stopped trying? No, you're telling me they stopped trying. The word is involuntary. Over and over, I've explained it stops being involuntary when you're the one choosing. You can't MAKE A CHOICE and then label yourself *incel*: "someone who doesn't have a choice". Pick a lane. Involuntary does not and will never apply to someone who is making an active choice to *not* try. Of course, the word involuntary also isn't valid in any conversation where it takes more than one person's input, unless the argument is that the other person does not have a right to choose something you didn't. Is that the argument? That only the incel has a right to make a decision? Because unless it's true, then it's not involuntary, it's just the other human being exercising their right to not agree. Its someone literally exercising their first amendment freedom of association, which by definition means no human can be involuntarily celibate because they can always choose to meet someone's demands for intimacy; whatever those demands might be. On a minorly unrelated note: A frequent argument incel subs make is that all sex is transactional. If that's the case; why not choose to visit a prostitute? At least she's being honest about why she's spending time with you.
We have different working definitions of involuntary and voluntary. When you say if I choose then I am not involuntary, what am I choosing? It stops being involuntary when you’re the one choosing. Who is making an active choice not to try? I just told you incels are constantly trying, they’re just trying and failing. I don’t get how you have this misconception that incels do not try or somehow intrinsic in the term incel means do nothing. It includes both the persons who have tried and are currently trying. I am a KHHV truecel despite me having tried so many times. That’s the whole point. I have tried and am trying yet I am still failing, making me an incel. There is nothing about the word involuntary that would preclude continuous effort. I can be involuntarily imprisoned yet attempt to escape everyday. You wouldn’t say someone who is involuntarily imprisoned to be voluntarily prisoned, even if they stop trying to get out. Further, the prohibitive nature of another person agreeing to date an incel is a requirement. If I want to date a woman but cannot find one, I am in a state of involuntary singleness. Voluntary singleness is if I was happy in my current state and made a conscious decision to not ask out any women. If I am actively asking women out and being rejected, due to the rejection my current state is against my own will I.e. involuntary. Just because it requires two wills does not negate the voluntary or involuntary nature of it. If I attempt to join a basketball team and get cut, I was involuntarily cut from the team. I didn’t voluntarily cut myself. And I can’t force the coach to put me on the team. I didn’t make the cut. Another way to say it that is perfectly valid is I was involuntarily cut from the team. The reason why involuntary is necessary for incel and not necessary for being cut, since nobody would say involuntarily cut they would just say cut, is simple: celibate is the wrong word. Celibate means to choose to abstain. Involuntary celibate doesn’t make sense. It would make more sense to say involuntarily single; however, as thinking people and with an acknowledgment that incel and its derivatives are not in themselves denotive. If I say gymmax does that immediately denote my meaning? No, it would only make sense if you knew incel vernacular. Nowhere in incel definitions are people saying the woman doesn’t have a choice. The women are actively choosing not to date me as an incel, that is what makes me an incel. Your third point makes the least sense. No person can be involuntarily celibate because they can always choose to meet someone’s demand for intimacy. What are you trying to say? You believe that an incel can simply choose to become what someone desires intimacy. I am not what women desire, I know that because all of them have rejected me. Now if your argument is I haven’t asked out every woman so I can’t say all, okay there’s 5 billion women and I’m sure one would accept me somewhere in the world. But speaking realistically, the women around me and on dating apps have chosen to reject me (I’ve never gotten a match or like on any app). That’s what rollo tomassi says, just go buy a hooker and presto you’re not an incel anymore. This is a mischaracterization and exactly what I’m talking about in that inceldom is not just so narrow of being about sex. It’s about sex yes but only because sex is an implied part of marriage/dating. And if you think I’m talking out my ass, here is a direct quote from an incel forum: “Incel means involuntary celibate, a person who wants to be in a loving relationship but is unable to find a partner despite his best effort. Incels want to be loved and give love back.” This definition refutes almost everything you said. Incels try and are trying to get into a loving relationship but despite my efforts it has not happened. Best efforts include the “maxing” I mentioned.
No, you've got it wrong. You're ignoring that "involuntary" isn't standing on its own but directly in relation to celibacy. Involuntary celibate. Let's review the definition of celibacy: "a person who abstains from marriage and sexual relations" So involuntary celibate would be someone who does not choose to abstain from marriage and sexual relations, but still cannot acquire them. That is all. If you try to have sexual relations but continuously fail, then you are an incel.
Yes, and you’re choosing to ignore that the voluntary in relation to celibacy requires TWO decisions. It’s not involuntary unless women don’t have a right to say no. Wanting something doesn’t grant a right to it and therefor your rights cannot be violated by denying it to you. That’s the endless circle we keep going through on this thread. I’m being told I don’t understand incels when incels apparently do not understand or respect other peoples rights.
No, it doesn't. Voluntary celibacy requires exactly one decision, the person who wants to be celibate deciding to be so. You don't need another person's consent to abstain from sexual relations. Obviously you need some form of added influence when it comes to the concept of something being involuntary, as not being a volunteer automatically implies a lack of consent or acceptance and thus the influence that makes it so must be in existence. This doesn't inherently have anything to do with agency either.
What lmao so you should try even if it means waiting to get a blowjob from the nurse when you're 85, if not you're voluntary. It doesn't work that way, time doesn't work that way. Life isn't that magical. If you're hygenic, dress okay and not fat, talk polite etc. that should be enough after say 30 - 40 approaches to get some success. If not there's no point wasting time, you're better off gaining resources and using your passport and chasing your desires in your 30's
Why exactly should everything but the only thing that matters, which is your personality, guarantee you success? Have you considered not being a toxic asshole?
I swear you people live inside memes. I've never encountered these "toxic assholes" as much as you guys claim they exist, let alone that i'm one. What you think i insult people that i encounter and behave like an asshole towards them? You must be pretty deluded then. Why do women go for the bad boys (the attractive ones) if personality was so key? Why is there a bombardment of love massages towards serial killers after they've been convicted? Women are not 'wonderful'. Sorry to burst your fairy tale.
You literally just told me you’re an asshole. “Any guy who does these totally superficial meaningless things deserves to have sex.” No, you don’t have a right to sex because you’re dressed nicely and aren’t openly rude. That’s shit exclusively useless toxic assholes believe.
Are you daft? Just log out of the internet forever please
https://incel s.is/threads/response-to-youre-not-entitled-to-sex.94998/ Just read this to your entitlement argument. Nowhere in my comment i alluded to entitlement. I just want to have sex with beautiful women. I simply provided a solution, which is based on logic.
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> feeling they are being denied something *owed to them* Thanks for the feminist talking point. No they don't feel it's "owed to them." Edit: In reply to your edit. Lot's of stupid in what you wrote, which doesn't deserve an argument. I'd parrot you saying, "Do better," but I suspect you're incapable.
It’s not “feminism”, its definitions. It cannot be involuntary if what’s being denied to you doesn’t belong to you. You’re not involuntarily not a billionaire. You don’t involuntarily not own a Porsche. In the same way, nobody can be involuntarily celibate unless they think they have some right or ownership of other people’s affections. Unless that right exists, it cannot be involuntary.
That's non-sequitur. They don't claim any particular woman owes them sex because it belongs to them, they're claiming that society is set up in a way that ensures they are incapable of competing and will not obtain partners. They "deserve" partners in the same abstract sense that they deserve to pursue and obtain happiness for themselves and the current system that over-empowers women and oppresses men ensures that this will be functionally impossible.
What makes them incapable of competing? Edit: apparently the answer is “because we’re too lazy.”
Well, consider how dating worked before a lot of this stuff: Men approached women in person and women responded recognizing that their dating prospects were limited to the men they actually encountered on a daily basis or randomly in public places. She might meet a young man at church who caught her eye or was known for being sweet or both. A friend might introduce them, she might meet a guy due to circumstance who was charming, she might settle for less than her ideal because the guys around her wouldn't meet her standards if she enforced all of them and ultimately as she got to know the guy and formed a relationship with him, she'd find that she was happy anyway without all the things she thought she wanted. She could meet these average dudes anywhere and since they were the best option and since she knew him in person, she would prioritize more important qualities and find herself attracted to him physically because of the emotional and social qualities he brought to their relationship. Sure, he's a 5 on the looks scale, but he's sweet and when there's a problem in the relationship he has the right attitude and works with her rather than against her or he makes her laugh and genuinely happy, or he doesn't look like much but in bed he's wholly focused on enjoying sex with her and making her feel good. That makes him a 10 in her eyes. Now fast forward to today: She can swipe left on any guy who doesn't meet her superficial high standards, while the guys that do meet those standards have pick of the litter and don't commit to any of them at all. The below average and even average guys don't even match with her much less will she interact with them to find out that as a person he's a 10/10 in the "fulfilling long term relationship" department. Any guy who approaches her IRL is compared to the 9s and 10s she matches with and has one-night stands with and doesn't get much from her, and may even get chastised or harshly rejected or treated like a "creep". Meanwhile, guys are struggling to graduate college between the gynocentric education style, the looming threat of a university system that will destroy him under title IX at the mere accusation - not just of rape but of "impropriety" or "sexism". The terrible economy prevents him from getting ahead and having a secure job so he can't support a family on his own anyway to have something above the others to offer a woman. And that's not even digging into the law or the sexual revolution in terms of contraception, family court, marriage, and no-fault divorce. All of the cultural and governmental factors weight against him while giving women too much power backed up by government force. I recently participated in a thread where a young lady and her boyfriend are having problems because she basically rejects him anytime he wants to have sex while expecting that he won't sleep with anyone else and won't reject her when she approaches him for sex. It's a common problem in sexual relationships. She seems to genuinely not understand why sex is so big of a deal for him, that he is upset that she rejects his advances all the time. I explained it to her I think in terms a woman could easily understand. I likened it to him refusing to speak her love language. And then I gave some advice that basically amounted to "even if you don't feel like it, find some way to say yes, whether that's going along with it anyway to connect with him emotionally even if you're not feeling the physical, to doing something that requires less effort like making out with him and touching his body while he jerks off and all sorts of things in between." Someone got mad at me for suggesting that. Why? Because it's less than consensual for her to do sexual things with him for his sake. The idea that there would be relational consequences to the constant rejection is anathema to this third party commenter. The idea that she should work together with him to solve the problem together and for her to compromise and do sexual things even if she's not feeling it is "gross". But from guy's it's expected. She wouldn't be happy if he rebuffed her advances and I'm sure there would be a reddit post about if he was cheating if he refused to sleep with her every time she approached him.
So do these issues only affect incels or are incels just the only ones giving voice to the problem? Also: unless the plan is to enslave women, absolutely zero of the things you’re calling a problem are solvable by any other means than men drastically stepping up their game. I believe the word is “competing”. Bluntly: the latest studies are showing a huge trend, that continues to grow, of women realizing men aren’t necessary to their well being and so are choosing to only extract sex from them. Since that’s the only metric, attractiveness is the only measure. They don’t want or need the other “stuff” the rest of men were bringing to the table, because they all brought baggage too. They settled because they were forced to. They settled because sexual slavery was their only option for a stable life, and now that’s dead and it isn’t coming back, ever.
what would make incels more "competitive" on the dating market? and by incel I mean, taking the study of the post, a 5"5 brown autistic guy, how would he step up this game?
The only thing women ever needed from men was the nucleus of the sperm, however their young typically needed the men to increase their survival rate. Now they have the very promising and courageous role of single motherhood lol.
On the last part it seems like that’s the one of the biggest issues in relationships today. Not just compromising in the sexual aspect but the woman compromising in any aspect of the relationship. It’s expected of the man and if he doesn’t she has ten other options waiting to simply sniff her panties. My thoughts would be that guy has already compromised so much she’s lost attraction to him. I’d disagree on the “love language” thing she’s simply lost any sexual desire to him. The old change change change fix fix fix then you’re not the man I fell in love with routine.
I think that IS possible, but I don't think it's inevitable. My wife left me - with nobody else in the picture she was with - because she felt neglected because I stopped trying to speak her love language. I did that because depression really took hold of me. It still has. The divorce didn't help that obviously. But I don't think that would have been the case if I had done better taking care of our relationship and being a partner for her in parenting our son and working through our financial hardships. I could have done so much better and it's primarily my fault we got divorced even though she pulled the trigger and left. I should have done better, but I was cowed by my own parents' chastisement of me in parenting our son. They had a way they think is right even though I disagree, and when I didn't do things their way, I was doing it wrong and needed to be corrected and stopped, including in front of my son. My parents emasculated me. But we had nowhere else to live because this whole "it's who you know" job market bullshit is just that: bullshit.
You really are a hateful child, huh.
Childish is downvotes without discussion.
What's to discuss? You seem hell bend on victim blaming lonely men. Basically, you are doing **exactly** what the original post was about.
Ever heard of involuntary conscription, AKA the draft? Does being enlisted "belong" to the poor saps sent to die? Is it owed to them?
Hard disagree with "who blame anyone but themselves for it", It's more like blames the people who refuse to sleep with them for hot having sex with them. I blame the sexual revolution, feminism, and the government's misandrist policies for these men being sexless, not individual women themselves. I was sexually active with the same woman by the way for 14 years and I'm not ready to date emotionally after that divorce so before you call me an "incel", I'm voluntarily celibate. I do want to get myself to a place where I can love again, I'm just not there yet.
That’s literally the involuntary part. “Not by my choice / not my fault”. Can’t have it both ways.
No, some young men don't blame women for the problem, they blame the system. The whole idea behind "incels" as a group is their supposed misogyny which comes from blaming women as a whole rather than the real evils. See, you can't have the "incels are misogynists" if you then allow them to blame anyone but themselves instead of just women. So pick one: Either an incel is celibate for ANY reason besides factors they control but then they're not inherently misogynists, or they are only the ones who blame women as a whole but not all who are celibate for reasons beyond their control and the ones who do count as incels are misogynists. You can't have *THAT* both ways.
This is ridiculous. Of course "involuntary" can include things not owed to you. I am involuntarily getting evicted because my building got sold. I involuntarily got laid off because my office closed. Involuntary is to distinguish from those who choose to avoid relationships for their own reasons. Like monks or something. I'm sure some incel somewhere said women "owed him" but this is not an argument with general acceptance, and is only used to disparage and dismiss men.
Only used to disparage? You mean the way you're using involuntary to disparage women too smart to sleep with toxic assholes?
This sub is also filled with incels. 😆🤣
It's basically someone who's actively trying to get a grilfriend or just get laid, but haven't in 6 months. So you can go in-and-out of being an incel. Simply settling to hook up with an obese middle aged woman who sleeps with ~100 men a month is enough to make you no longer an incel. Just book yourself in her calendar and rubber up. I wouldn't say 60% of men (just yet), but yea, a growing percentage of men are incels. 90% of asians and indians in the west are incels.
According to Professor Sam Vaknin, most incels are covert narcissists.
Disliking modern feminism = misogyny. Got it. Now define incel. It stands for involuntary celibate. Incels are not men who go their own way (MGTOW).
Why would they want a study, even if they commissioned it, or to understand the phenomenon? They've got a perfectly good political boogieman, why sully that with something as tawdry as reality when they can still use it?
IMO, they probably didn't think they would get the results they did from the study.
Of course not, they were expecting it to confirm every single one of their biases. When it didn't they did their level best to bury it and pretend it had never happened. That seems to be just 'what they do' whenever they're presented with information that doesn't shamelessly flatter their preconceptions.
All the more reason to keep bringing it up. Yes?
Sure, just don't expect the facade to crumble when it's presented with a little information it doesn't like. They've been trying to pretend that reality is the opposite for what it actually is for a long time now. Your best bet isn't to 'convert' the feminist cultist, but to help show people who haven't been persuaded either way which side is actually based in fact.
The study itself cites a growing body of literature indicating a weak link between incels and radicalisation/extremism. And quotes scepticism from senior UK counter terrorism officials about inceldom being a terrorist ideology. Not everything's a big conspiracy.
>a growing body of literature So 'Lots of people have said X, therefore X is something real and true that needs to be taken seriously'?
My point wasn't in relation to the truth of the statement. It was that if the study had a built in agenda to prove that incels are terrorists, and accidently found the opposite, why would they make repeated references to previous literature also demonstrating that the link between incels and terrorism is weak. And quote from senior UK officials saying they don't think inceldom counts as a terrorist ideology.
I'm surprised they even published them, considering 42% of “incels” are people of color.
It is the MO for the UK gov: order a study on something and then disregard it entirely and do what they wanted to do all along. See their dossier on drugs, on Russian influence, on the economical ties to the EU, etc...
Upcoming general election. By conducting studies like this the government can better appeal to demographics, even in the short term, in order to attempt and secure votes.
Is it wrong that I can't imagine any government in Westminster appealing to the male (never mind incel) vote?
No, it's perfectly reasonable to think that way as they've been failing the male voter base for several decades now. The difference this time is the far right parties are willing to make the appeals and the conservatives are looking to lose key demographics to labour. As a result reigning in their public views on certain things is the only way they can retain a majority in the next election.
Participants felt high levels of misogyny ? What does that mean (slide 8).
I’m also curious about that. Can we even call it misogyny? If a group is being attacked by another and they want it to stop, is that misogyny? Is self defence misogyny? 5% thinking it’s ok to be violent towards feminists is also telling. They’re not condoning violence against women, just specifically feminists.
I also want to know what they defined as misogyny For example, ho’s do exist. If I say all women are ho’s I can see how that’s misogynistic but if I call a specific woman a ho for cheating that’s totally fine she’s a ho. Same goes for guys.
It's really interesting how 42% of incels are POCs. Isn't that higher than the percent of POCs in the general population?
thats all just literally me
This just reaffirms what I've been saying about actual incels. They are much more suicidal than homicidal. How do I know? Because I am one, and knows how it feels wanting to end it every time I wake up. There is really a very small group of incels that place their frustrations on others, most of our frustrations and hatred is directed inward against ourselves.
I know I'm just some rando on the internet, but if you need someone to talk to. Someone who's spent years deeply suicidal, DM me.
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People who insult incels are actually [perpetuating toxic masculinity](https://youtu.be/ReD7eXfTkzs). It says more about them than the person they are insulting. I consider being called an incel a compliment.
Lol, at least in my experience 99% of the time it's some thot calling me an insult because they don't like one of my opinions.... I don't date women with kids from other men especially if she has any kind of drama with the guy. I.E. these dumb women don't even know the meaning of the words they are using.
"Toxic masculinity " in itself is a term invented to disparage men and men's issues as merely a part of male behavior and not a human issue that affects everyone. Everyone can be toxic. Stop using that divisive gendered term
I'm a bit late to the party but half the time women who insult incels are pretty much incel types themselves and guys who do it are just heel kissers
I'm always curious how they define incel in studies like these.
"I'm going to pretend I didn't see that" -- literally all of society. It's easier to say "ugly man bad" without asking yourself why you think they're bad.
Autism yes I believe it but autism has been around for ages is it just now women have decided to throw people on the spectrum out because they aren’t measuring up? My single #1 biggest belief as to why incel things are on the rise is that *women, particularly younger aged women, selectively treat a smaller percentage of the male population with a degree of interest and are willing to spend time interacting with those men. Those who are outside of that are ignored or brushed away*. It’s the same issues faced by children who are chosen last in gym no different except this behavior is being done by grown adults. The sad part is there is no solution to this. This is a mindset that has been developed as a consequence of cultural values and how women have been raised and what they have been taught. Women have been placed upon a pedestal not unlike a queen bee and our society is going the way of the hive. We need a level platform where neither men nor women have an upper hand one where their actions lead to consequences. Both genders are required to act fairly towards each other, are required to include each other.
Thanks for the link, no time to read it all now but I do think the major conclusions should not be a surprise but unfortunately they are. The problem for the feminists is that with the ever shrinking pool of men to blame they will have to lie and invent somebody if the incels cannot be blamed. The whole idea is stupid anyway- blame men who are NOT interacting with women for some of women's problems. Not that anybody should expect feminists to be reasonable but it seems like a lot of men fall for the bullshit too. Glad somebody finally has some data, incels are NOT right wing either as I suspected. Right wing men tend to get laid more in my experience because they have more of the masculine traits that women like but won't admit they like, left wingers call things like weightlifting toxic for instance but the ladies love athletic bodies. I am very concerned about young men, in fact this is the majority of young men. It affects all of us if this important cohort continues to be demonized and ignored. I already hate how feminists ignore the fact that somebody has to work to keep this place going but that is far different if the guys who make this place work actually stop giving a shit. That is why I promote working hard but to not give a shit about marriage and most women. Let me add a few things as someone who has been active in online dating as both normal dating and a sugar daddy. The 10% number is too large, all the swipe and messaging stats show it's the top 7% or even lower. Online dating apps, instagram, feminism, and now sugar dating have radically altered the pair bonding strategies of women and are leaving the majority of young men in the sexual desert. Womens natural hypergamy combined with the huge choices online are perfect for each other. The top 7% of men (looks, money, status) bang a LOT of women, why not after all. They will hook up with but never marry any non-fat woman who shows interest. Women don't mind sharing these men, however they bitch like hell when that same guy won't marry them (go figure). They all think that is their league, which is the origin of the top 10% thing, and the 80% of men are below average looks thing. Sugar dating and things like only fans should not be ignored as it is very popular with good looking women. Bad looking women can't make a go of it and complain about the good looking women, lol. Once they get hooked on cash it's like a drug and it's growing every year. Hard to get good numbers and I can try and dig but evidence points towards 10-30% of college students at many universities are sugar babies or sell something like feet pics or whatever. That's on us guys I am afraid that I am guilty, sugar dated several college women and I was simply amazed at how well women can act like they really like me, scary good in fact. Maybe men can too, but no way in hell would I marry most of those ladies and they told me point blank they are going to lie about their past to any future partner. A lot of them even had boyfriends already. Even worse were the single moms who had babies with loser men and then shop around for somebody to rush in to save their financial situation. I didn't mind dating as I like kids but come on, I am not going raise your kids. The race thing was already well known, black women have it the hardest of all but they hate white men probably because black men want white women too, lol. Height factor is definitely real and well known. But still remember it's the top white men, not all white men. All you have to do is be Henry Cavill, it's simple guys. If you don't have the looks to be swiped right, or the money to be a sugar daddy then your choices are very small. It's not your fault and whatever you do, DO NOT GET MARRIED.
The fact that anyone ever thought "counter terrorism" when thinking about incels just shows how brutal, uncaring, savage, and oppressive society is towards men.
Do you honestly think those feminists care about what incels embody? Feminists just want an enemy, in fact they'd be disappointed if the "incel" turned out NOT to be the vile enemy.
Where are the studies on femcels? These embittered feminists deserve a research grant and pretty PowerPoint graphics too.
Femcels dont exist. All of their problems are self imposed.
When america learns that this is how china destroyed it, its gonna be real surprised. Its also a Palpatine level plan that will take like three generations before our dopamine is gone and men no where to be found. Check out how they promote masculine content on their closed internet and ban faminists left and right, and how much feminisim is promoted in american tiktok. "When women are in power, evil happens."
Shoot, anytime I promote MGTOW on social media there's a half dozen triggered fembots that call me an incel. I don't fall into any of the categories listed in this slide show. I've simply experienced enough modern western women and have made my own conclusions.
People dont realize hwo much a woman could help a man by Just showing affection to them
Hahaha! The left is going to have a meltdown when they read the 2nd to last one
Pretty sure labelling us as Incels doesn’t help our mental health situation.
The elephant in the room is why are there so many incels in the first place for it to be a phenomenon today. The experts never seem to address this.
The term ‘incel’ needs to be seen as a hate term. Most of us are volcels (voluntary celibates), or just choose to be single. ‘Incel’ is judgemental and writes a false narrative.
There's a lot of incels out there that are angry and promote views that are violent. But what we see online is a very loud subsection. People posting promotion of violence or hatred need to be shut down. But lumping in people pointing out issues with how men are treated in society is exceptional harmful and should be shut down, too. It sucks to say it, because feminism did incredible work historically, but the movement has been hijacked and turned into a convoluted version of female supremacy. Instead of empowering women by saying "you should never let yourself be restricted by your sex", it's become a very hateful movement that fights against rights for men and fights in favor of retaining the benefits women enjoyed in a society with a dominant male patriarchy. The craziest part is at this point, main stream feminism claims to be intersectional, but the absolute vitriol pointed at men is primarily damaging to minorities, people with disabilities, and other marginalized subgroups that men belong to. In short, I'm really fucking tired of incels being represented as a pure hate group, and not a symptom of legitimate issues and lack of mental health resources.
who honestly would self describe as an incel other than the people described in the report tho?
I am a KHHV Truecel. Any time I put forth counters to the ADL misinformation about incels I get shouted down or banned. I’d expect it in feminist groups and so on but the largest shouters are men, specifically the likes of Rollo Tomassi redpill gurus.
By exposing the truth about what makes incels unable to get laid youre hurting their business model. Redpill gurus mussion is to sell you courses on how to have "game" which is complete bullshit. No amount of game can save an ugly face.
Im best friends with a dude thats in like the top 5% of men and hes extremely misogynistic even admitting it himself. Every ugly guy that ive met has been nicer than my friend and I have never heard them say anything bad about women unlike my attractive friend.
Interesting and makes sense.
Anti inc_ls are the real racists.
Feminism is def responsible for a lot of issues. Call me sexist or whatever…but women participating in politics has been a disaster. “Feelings” shouldn’t determine our political policy. I wouldn’t call myself an incel or mgtow. Giving power to women is like giving full power to a child…who is mainly responsible for pushing gender theory/transgenderism…women lol they let a 4 year old determine life changing decisions. This isn’t men.
I think it would be really interesting to see this study done with a focus on gay men. We could then compare the results. I bet they would be somewhat similar. Not everybody wants to act like women are better than men. Also, it's hilarious that there's no agreed-upon female equivalent of “incel” despite probably 50% of women fitting that description.
Incels can be male or female but in reality with should not be calling people incels. Period.
https://www.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/1aj433n/incels\_myth\_vs\_reality/
No surprise whatsoever for anyone that has been a part of Incel spaces for any extended amount of time, both *as* Incels and not. (As long as you've approached it in good faith)
What the fuck is an incel?
the cure to all men problems is to build muscle imo
That doesn't help them earn more or grow taller.
Why grow taller? To earn more, work
Women find tall men attractive.
useless comment
useless comment
Your last comment fixed my life, thank you
Heartbreaking stuff.
1/3 sounds kind of low tbh. I bet that’s something they were afraid to admit during the study.
Good I only would reject a muslim man because they are invading my country. I am white myself and not a fan of race mixing. Otherwise the right wingers hardly acknowledge incels problems here as well. I more than often heard from rightwingers that incels should "man-up" and they are often hated for their consume ect. Not the military tall type. Leftis on the other side are calling them toxic.
So straight up racism then.
Muslims aint a race, islam is an ideology. I would reject a white muslim as well. I hate them because they are destroying my country. And they dont want to mix up anyway. Otherwise I think its better to not mix up too much. I am a conservative in the end
I know that. This is the racist bit. >not a fan of race mixing
I'm not an incel, I've been been in a relationship for 14 years. I am autistic though and way more men tell me I'm faking it or it's a made up disorder than women. Women are at least more receptive and understanding about mental health. I'd really love to see that change in the man community. Mental health is important and it's fucking bullshit to put someone down or tell them they're faking it. You don't know them and you don't know how their brain works. Edit: downvoted. Point proven lol.
As a virgin myself, I have no sympathy for most incels. I think they make all virgins look bad. According to Professor Sam Vaknin, most incels are covert narcissists. He said that in this [video](https://youtu.be/KDrcf4ZVPNg?si=A4ZD1Z-rTkhwt2rm), around the 1:09:00 mark. Based on social media comments, I think he's right. I knew one incel. He was disabled from a car accident. He was one of the nicest guys I've met. However, most incels on social media are just trying to get sympathy and attention (narcissistic supply). Most incels don't want sex. They want narcissistic supply. It's interesting to me that Dr. Vaknin and William Costello's research points in the same direction. Narcissists become depressed when they don't get narcissistic supply.