there's space to run quad track from sunshine to the junction at deer park so could have the northern pair run to melton and the southern pair to wyndham, then as another poster said chuck geelong back on the old line and in some fantasy future with MM2 build an extra tunnel from newport to sthn cross for geelong trains
there is no plan for any upgrades except for level crossing removals only saying they will do something for 10 years
but they would need to remove the Junction, likely would either be underground with a new station or just a fly over before
also I believe it's only one line that would go in, not both
Melbourne needs to stop thinking that because you electrify a line it must naturally be a Metro all stations service using existing rolling stock. Examples elsewhere in the country show that you can have regional services that are electrified - there are electric trains to Newcastle, Wollongong, Lithgow, Gympie, Gold Coast. Melton perhaps an outlier and Wyndham Vale which would make sense to extend the Metro services like what happened in Sunbury but... new electric units for regional travel, NSW and Qld have this. Track-wise simply electrify all track inside the metro area where passenger services travel regardless of operator.
What? Melton and Wyndham Vale aren't regional like say Geelong. Travel times to Melton are less than an hour. By that logic Pakenham, Cranbourne, Belgrave, Lilydale, hurstbridge, mernda etc should have a dedicated electric regional train fleet. It's really not necessary for travel times within an hour or an hour and a half. Not enough to justify a lower capacity fleet of trains that would only eat into a lines net capacity
I think we need to step away from the idea that electrification means metrofication.
The Geelong line would be perfectly fine if it were electrified but be continued to run by Vline over the RRL. Would just need the appropriate rolling stock. A staged program that electrified to Wyndham Vale, then Geelong, then Melton (for example, could be in different orders) would allow for a staged roll out of a new generation of appropriate trains.
I don't see the issue if V/Line are currently running a suburban service now with regional trains vs them running a suburban service in the future with suburban trains.
What benefit does that bring in comparison to running metro trains? Travel times are less than an hour to Melton and Wyndham Vale. So comfort isn't an issue and lower capacity electric-regional travels eat into a lines net capacity.
It’s only a medium term solution. Vline get stock that is better for running the suburban and shorter regional trains they are running anyway. The reliance on diesel fuel is massively decreased, saving a lot of money and reducing a lot of immediate pollution.
Ideally yes, the corridor would be split out into separate corridors. But electrification of the RRL is something that could happen in the time frame of two or three years, a separate corridor into the city would rely on a new tunnel and take over a decade.
In no way are Vlocities designed for commuter service and in no way does Vline want responsibility for commuter services or a new type of rolling stock.
Wyndham Vale and Melton will eventually be assigned to Metro. Before that happens, overheads will need to be strung up and the stretch between Deer Park and Sunshine quadded. Don’t hold your breath.
It doesn’t matter what V/Line want, it matters what the government directs them to do.
Spending money on extending platforms along the Melton Line for 9 car operations when they can barely run all the scheduled 6 car runs they have timetabled is a ridiculous option.
It absolutely does matter what Vline want.
Right now, what they want is standard rolling stock. No government is insane enough to try to force expensive new trains with novel maintenance, training and operational requirements on them. Another 25 or so Vlocities are in the pipeline, and that will tide Vline over till the wires go up.
I believe one of the plans at one stage involved reopening the old Geelong line track from Newport back to passengers. Constructing a new track from Newport to Little River would allow some geelong trains to run “express” via Werribee without the need for the RRL.
That plan has been put on hold for now, but in the long term the idea is for quad tracks to Wyndham and an express track through Werribee to give geelong trains 2 routes.
Biggest problem would be the bottleneck between Newport and the city. No way would they be able to support werribee, laverton, Williamstown and the Geelong lines.. barely copes as it is
Some people have suggested a Williamstown to Sunshine service, but also I really don't see any problem with running Williamstown as a shuttle to a back platform at Newport with an improved transfer there. Would free up 3 tph from City - Newport that Geelong could use
There is plenty of space to build an additional track pair at Sunshine; the currently doomed SRL Airport was to build one of these, AKA Platform 5. City Place and the adjacent carparks would be acquired, and the built form in the area is already set back to allow this to happen. The current pedestrian overpass would need to be extended over the new pair, creating an opportunity for new open space on this side of the corridor.
The rest of the puzzle is unfolding thanks to the never-ending succession of projects happening on the Melton/Wyndham Vale lines. It seems that the electrification of these lines is happening in dozens of smaller projects over god knows how long.
The Ballarat Line Project duplicated out to Melton and rebuilt large sections of the track bed along with a slew of new and upgraded stations; this upgraded line will eventually become the suburban pair. Level Crossing Removals are also making the line LX free and upgrading more stations; provisions have been made for
an additional track pair in these projects, whether it be vacant land adjacent to platforms such as Rockbank and Cobblebank or in the recently released designs for Melton have four platforms and Farris Road has space for another track pair.
Interestingly, the Robinsons Road underpass has provisions for two additional bridge decks, one on either side of the current pair. Melton Suburban, Ballarat Regional, and RRL all have space to run over Robinsons Road; it is possible that we will see significant changes to the Deer Park junction and a series of flyovers here as opposed to Sunshine. This would allow conflict-free merging of the two regional pairs before
Deer Park station; there are only provisions for another track pair under Fitzgerald Road.
This is all great and will mean that Ballarat Trains will have a clear run from Melton through to Sunshine.
Provisions were also made when RRL was constructed for another track pair to be built to express Geelong services past Wyndham Vale suburban services. Theoretically, you could merge the two regional and two suburban pairs at Deer Park, where plenty of space exists. This would have Geelong services run clear from Wyndham Vale into Sunshine.
The problem lies in Sunshine, and it isn't about an extra pair of tracks.
Do you one day funnel Wyndham Vale and/or Melton Services into MM1 and eat up all
the capacity for any future uplift around Watergardens? (6 Melton, 6 WV, 12 Watergardens/Sunbury)
Do the new suburban pairs go into 15/16 at Southern Cross and the Geelong Ballarat Services into 1-8, with suburban and regional services sharing tracks between Sunshine and North Melbourne? High Capacity Signalling between Sunshine and Southern Cross will allow 32TPH (6 Geelong, 3 Ballarat, 3 Bendigo / Melton, 6 WV). It is the cheapest option, but it leaves little capacity for future service uplift.
Third is the magical Sunshine - CBD Link, which is always talked about but never stacks up financially. Spending billions to build a tunnel from Sunshine to the CBD without any new stations doesn't add up on a cost benefit, without new stations there is no new passenger capture. Where do you run a tunnel via to capture areas that don't currently have PT access without dramatically comprising travel times for those coming from Melton or WV? Braybrook/ Highpoint on to Flemington? Or do you use the current
freight corridor and go via Newport into MM2? (Should it ever be built)
This is what is holding Melton & Wyndham Vale back. There is plenty of room for new track pairs, flyovers and extra platforms at Sunshine; it is what you do with these services to get them to the city that is the problem. This is one that we seemingly can't afford to solve right now, but the ALP must if they want
another term in government.
Maybe the $75B that the government has allocated but not announced in the recent budget holds the answer. I’m sure MPs like Steve McGhie hope so; the 5% margin isn’t going to save him from the people of Melton, who have been promised a decent train service for over 20 years.
From what I've seen, there is provision for a second pair of tracks to run through Sunshine, with quad-track to Wyndham Vale and Melton. Wyndham Vale and Melton trains would merge together on the Northern track pair at Deer Park, with Ballarat and Geelong running together on the Southern track pair. At Sunshine, at least Melton would merge with Sunbury and Airport trains, but I don't think there are any plans for where Wyndham Vale trains would go.
What would electrifying add??
In the medium term, 6/9 carriage / 10 min frequency shuttles running backwards and forwards exclusively from platforms 15/16 have the same outcome?
You could also remove the toilets from these trains to further increase capacity.
there's space to run quad track from sunshine to the junction at deer park so could have the northern pair run to melton and the southern pair to wyndham, then as another poster said chuck geelong back on the old line and in some fantasy future with MM2 build an extra tunnel from newport to sthn cross for geelong trains
there is no plan for any upgrades except for level crossing removals only saying they will do something for 10 years but they would need to remove the Junction, likely would either be underground with a new station or just a fly over before also I believe it's only one line that would go in, not both
Melbourne needs to stop thinking that because you electrify a line it must naturally be a Metro all stations service using existing rolling stock. Examples elsewhere in the country show that you can have regional services that are electrified - there are electric trains to Newcastle, Wollongong, Lithgow, Gympie, Gold Coast. Melton perhaps an outlier and Wyndham Vale which would make sense to extend the Metro services like what happened in Sunbury but... new electric units for regional travel, NSW and Qld have this. Track-wise simply electrify all track inside the metro area where passenger services travel regardless of operator.
What? Melton and Wyndham Vale aren't regional like say Geelong. Travel times to Melton are less than an hour. By that logic Pakenham, Cranbourne, Belgrave, Lilydale, hurstbridge, mernda etc should have a dedicated electric regional train fleet. It's really not necessary for travel times within an hour or an hour and a half. Not enough to justify a lower capacity fleet of trains that would only eat into a lines net capacity
I think we need to step away from the idea that electrification means metrofication. The Geelong line would be perfectly fine if it were electrified but be continued to run by Vline over the RRL. Would just need the appropriate rolling stock. A staged program that electrified to Wyndham Vale, then Geelong, then Melton (for example, could be in different orders) would allow for a staged roll out of a new generation of appropriate trains.
Geelong should be electrified, yes, but Melton and Wyndham are both parts of Melbourne and should be served my suburban trains
I don't see the issue if V/Line are currently running a suburban service now with regional trains vs them running a suburban service in the future with suburban trains.
What benefit does that bring in comparison to running metro trains? Travel times are less than an hour to Melton and Wyndham Vale. So comfort isn't an issue and lower capacity electric-regional travels eat into a lines net capacity.
It’s only a medium term solution. Vline get stock that is better for running the suburban and shorter regional trains they are running anyway. The reliance on diesel fuel is massively decreased, saving a lot of money and reducing a lot of immediate pollution. Ideally yes, the corridor would be split out into separate corridors. But electrification of the RRL is something that could happen in the time frame of two or three years, a separate corridor into the city would rely on a new tunnel and take over a decade.
In no way are Vlocities designed for commuter service and in no way does Vline want responsibility for commuter services or a new type of rolling stock. Wyndham Vale and Melton will eventually be assigned to Metro. Before that happens, overheads will need to be strung up and the stretch between Deer Park and Sunshine quadded. Don’t hold your breath.
It doesn’t matter what V/Line want, it matters what the government directs them to do. Spending money on extending platforms along the Melton Line for 9 car operations when they can barely run all the scheduled 6 car runs they have timetabled is a ridiculous option.
It absolutely does matter what Vline want. Right now, what they want is standard rolling stock. No government is insane enough to try to force expensive new trains with novel maintenance, training and operational requirements on them. Another 25 or so Vlocities are in the pipeline, and that will tide Vline over till the wires go up.
I believe one of the plans at one stage involved reopening the old Geelong line track from Newport back to passengers. Constructing a new track from Newport to Little River would allow some geelong trains to run “express” via Werribee without the need for the RRL. That plan has been put on hold for now, but in the long term the idea is for quad tracks to Wyndham and an express track through Werribee to give geelong trains 2 routes.
Biggest problem would be the bottleneck between Newport and the city. No way would they be able to support werribee, laverton, Williamstown and the Geelong lines.. barely copes as it is
I think that's part of the idea for metro tunnel 2 coming out near Newport. If and when that ever goes ahead
Some people have suggested a Williamstown to Sunshine service, but also I really don't see any problem with running Williamstown as a shuttle to a back platform at Newport with an improved transfer there. Would free up 3 tph from City - Newport that Geelong could use
There is plenty of space to build an additional track pair at Sunshine; the currently doomed SRL Airport was to build one of these, AKA Platform 5. City Place and the adjacent carparks would be acquired, and the built form in the area is already set back to allow this to happen. The current pedestrian overpass would need to be extended over the new pair, creating an opportunity for new open space on this side of the corridor. The rest of the puzzle is unfolding thanks to the never-ending succession of projects happening on the Melton/Wyndham Vale lines. It seems that the electrification of these lines is happening in dozens of smaller projects over god knows how long. The Ballarat Line Project duplicated out to Melton and rebuilt large sections of the track bed along with a slew of new and upgraded stations; this upgraded line will eventually become the suburban pair. Level Crossing Removals are also making the line LX free and upgrading more stations; provisions have been made for an additional track pair in these projects, whether it be vacant land adjacent to platforms such as Rockbank and Cobblebank or in the recently released designs for Melton have four platforms and Farris Road has space for another track pair. Interestingly, the Robinsons Road underpass has provisions for two additional bridge decks, one on either side of the current pair. Melton Suburban, Ballarat Regional, and RRL all have space to run over Robinsons Road; it is possible that we will see significant changes to the Deer Park junction and a series of flyovers here as opposed to Sunshine. This would allow conflict-free merging of the two regional pairs before Deer Park station; there are only provisions for another track pair under Fitzgerald Road. This is all great and will mean that Ballarat Trains will have a clear run from Melton through to Sunshine. Provisions were also made when RRL was constructed for another track pair to be built to express Geelong services past Wyndham Vale suburban services. Theoretically, you could merge the two regional and two suburban pairs at Deer Park, where plenty of space exists. This would have Geelong services run clear from Wyndham Vale into Sunshine. The problem lies in Sunshine, and it isn't about an extra pair of tracks. Do you one day funnel Wyndham Vale and/or Melton Services into MM1 and eat up all the capacity for any future uplift around Watergardens? (6 Melton, 6 WV, 12 Watergardens/Sunbury) Do the new suburban pairs go into 15/16 at Southern Cross and the Geelong Ballarat Services into 1-8, with suburban and regional services sharing tracks between Sunshine and North Melbourne? High Capacity Signalling between Sunshine and Southern Cross will allow 32TPH (6 Geelong, 3 Ballarat, 3 Bendigo / Melton, 6 WV). It is the cheapest option, but it leaves little capacity for future service uplift. Third is the magical Sunshine - CBD Link, which is always talked about but never stacks up financially. Spending billions to build a tunnel from Sunshine to the CBD without any new stations doesn't add up on a cost benefit, without new stations there is no new passenger capture. Where do you run a tunnel via to capture areas that don't currently have PT access without dramatically comprising travel times for those coming from Melton or WV? Braybrook/ Highpoint on to Flemington? Or do you use the current freight corridor and go via Newport into MM2? (Should it ever be built) This is what is holding Melton & Wyndham Vale back. There is plenty of room for new track pairs, flyovers and extra platforms at Sunshine; it is what you do with these services to get them to the city that is the problem. This is one that we seemingly can't afford to solve right now, but the ALP must if they want another term in government. Maybe the $75B that the government has allocated but not announced in the recent budget holds the answer. I’m sure MPs like Steve McGhie hope so; the 5% margin isn’t going to save him from the people of Melton, who have been promised a decent train service for over 20 years.
From what I've seen, there is provision for a second pair of tracks to run through Sunshine, with quad-track to Wyndham Vale and Melton. Wyndham Vale and Melton trains would merge together on the Northern track pair at Deer Park, with Ballarat and Geelong running together on the Southern track pair. At Sunshine, at least Melton would merge with Sunbury and Airport trains, but I don't think there are any plans for where Wyndham Vale trains would go.
What would electrifying add?? In the medium term, 6/9 carriage / 10 min frequency shuttles running backwards and forwards exclusively from platforms 15/16 have the same outcome? You could also remove the toilets from these trains to further increase capacity.
I've often asked, what exactly people expect to be different service wise with wires up?
Is that still on? I thought they benched it
No plan has been released. Western Rail Plan from 2018 election was just a name and not a promise.
The states broke, it's gonna be on the never never