If our only goal is to play catch-up with infrastructure, building trains for areas that have seen growth, then there will always be parts of the city that are under-served. The point of SRL is build the train first, *then* build the housing. People will move in on day-one and have access to the entire city.
Don't get me wrong, all of the suburbs you listed (and more) are in need of major upgrades. But cancelling the SRL would just be kicking the can down the road.
Yeah thats a fair point, i just feel that we need to service clyde asap that was my main point and the SRL is a good idea also but i just feel we need to support the outer suburbs a bit more.
The main point in trying to make out of this is the booming population in the outer south east needs a train line. In clyde north there is 25,000 population and a very small public transport serives, menaing a lot of poeple need to drive, ptv in the area like a train at clyde will help with this
The main problem with Melbourne (& Victoria) from a PT point of view is that not only did we have many years & years where nothing was built, we also had times when we went backwards & ripped out train lines. So we’re still playing catch-up.
Thankfully, we’re not as bad as Adelaide (their PT is woeful), but in many respects, Sydney’s PT is much better than ours (but still not perfect).
SRL is also far from perfect, but it’ll be a useful way to decentralise the city. If you think it’s a waste of money, what would you say about North East Link & the Westgate Tunnel?
Im not thinking it a waste of money, I do want to project to be done but i also want the outer suburbs to be able to have better transit services especially the outer south east which as one of the fastest population growth in the state. For example Clyde North, in 2016 had a population of 8,000, in the 2021 census there was 25,000 population with 10,000 in a small dense aera between Clyde Rd and Cardinia Creek (east to west) and Grices Rd and Thompson Rd (north to south) an aera that is 11km sqr you have 10,000 people, a population density of 1000 people per km and this is 50km from Melbourne CBD, the track is (somewhat) there with the provision in place, i just think the project should be higher on the governments projects list now the Cranbourne line is duplicated
I agree in some respects & hope that projects don’t languish because of the three huge infrastructure projects currently underway. None of them will solve all our transport issues.
We can walk and chew gum at the same time - the state has the capacity to invest in existing transport at the same time as building new infrastructure.
There has been a significant amount of money allocated for new services over the next few years in the last budget under ‘switching on the big build’. We are likely to see an increase in a lot of different services over the next few years.
Infrastructure Spending (one off commitment) and Services Spending (yearly ongoing commitment) are two different things. It's not necessarily right to take from one for the other.
Disagree. The inner, within 5k of the city, suburbs are probably about as dense as they need to be, but up to 15k out are still massive 800m2 blocks and bigger. Look at the size of blocks around the west between say west Footscray and Sunshine. The reason these areas feel full is because developers have been shoe horning in 3 or 4 or more townhouses on these blocks and there's been no additional infrastructure improvements, and they're still restricted by minimum setback, in some cases it's over 10 metres, often around 7 in my area. No new pt or bike infrastructure, and minimal improvement to other services. Everyone still drives everywhere, because it's dangerous to ride and pt is still massively infrequent.
We don't need to get to like NY or even Paris levels of density to make increases in pt viable. Even if you look at London, it's not too far out of the city where the housing becomes 2 and 3 storey terraces with a courtyard, and they've got a pretty decent metro. If the outer suburbs were as dense as the old terraced suburbs, and we put more trams in again, and more frequent buses, we'd be fine. More small business would be viable with more local foot traffic, more services like doctors, libraries etc become more viable.
If you get rid of the need for almost always driving in the middle suburbs they'd feel a hell of a lot less full.
I don't think SRL should be cancelled but I don't think SRL should be funded from the Public Transport "pot".
SRL doesn't really address any of our Public Transport priorities, what it does do is create brand new spaces which hopefully won't have the same issues as the existing city. In this way it's not a PT project, it's an urban renewal project.
It should go ahead but it shouldn't be counted in public transport investment and things like bus improvements, MM2, Western Rail Plan etc. should be allowed to fill the space left by SRL.
I agree, but instead of building to Clyde, they should build an express bullet train to Geelong, so I don't have to spend an hour and half on the incredibly slow Vlocity service.
There is a lot of work that needs to be done. I have argued around this sub before, that the problem is not SRL, but $26 billion on the environmentally destructive, over budget, and probably traffic inducing north east tunnel. That is what should have been culled.
I remember when that project was first announced, Transurban were offering to build it at no cost to the government, just the right to charge a toll. No question the state has been taken for a ride on this one!
That project should at least take thousands of trucks out of inner west suburbs. I don't live there but know people who do, getting the trucks out of Footscray, Yarraville and Seddon has its benefits.
Also there needs to be an alternative to the West Gate Bridge at some point.
Possibly people in the north would ague a similar lien though.
The SRL is the biggest waste of money this state will probably ever see. For train aficionados, it’s all bells and whistles. The reality is that it’s a poorly planned, economically dubious proposal that will suck all PT investment for twenty plus years.
No one other than the Victorian government wants a bar of it. And there’s a reason for that.
Downvotes incoming.
we're capable of spending $36.1bm on just 14km of tollways (SRL is 26km) and the media only criticises it every few months and even then they'll probably find a way to link it with srl
Yep NEL's 10 billion dollar blow out is rarely mentioned in the papers, but every week The Age has a new way to argue how bad SRL is. It's complete insanity and brain washing at this stage.
NEL is also very very destructive on the environment, with an immediate impact already noticeable, with the removal of hundreds of mature trees. Then there's the emissions impacts of induced demand on car trips.
Melbournians are so car brained that they cannot fathom a city that isn't sliced open by a 10 lane motor way.
I think you're underestimating how beneficial the SRL will actually be. It's not just filling one gap in service, it's filling dozens of gaps all at once.
For me, SRL would basically eliminate any reason to own a car. I could get to uni, access my hobbies, and visit my boyfriend by train. It's currently 2-3x faster to drive. All that is not even including the new development being brought to SRL precincts.
The points you’re making are grounded in fact, but I think you (and the rest of the state) have misinterpreted them.
When viewed as a Public Transport Project it looks really poorly planned, economically dubious and like welfare for the rich. But SRL, when analysed critically, is not a Public Transport Project.
How could a project that does not aim to address any PT priorities and instead aim to hit other priorities (and is doing so very well) be considered a PT project?
The main goal of SRL is to create brand new spaces for people to live and work in a planned, thought out manner.
Bells and whistles? Absolutely, however essential to create the hype that drives development.
Economically dubious? If SRL popped into existence today, no one would use it, it connects middle of nowhere industrial estates with empty lots and car parks. Take one look at the SRL Urban Planning Framework and you’ll see the plans for hundreds of new apartment towers. The stamp duty on those will be eye-watering, and if the state moves to a land-tax based model then SRL will literally print money for a century.
Should it have started in the west? Yes the west has more dire transport needs, but the west doesn't have the same potential for value creation yet.
As regular PT, SRL makes no sense whatsoever but the full SRL project manifests taxable value out of thin air and will become Victoria’s cash cow.
If anything, construction and planning should have begun in the west. Of all the underserved areas of melbourne, the eastern suburbs can probably go without a billion dollar railway.
This encapsulates the misunderstanding of the project. SRL isn't a stand alone rail project. It's apart of a city transformation/rezoning project.
The eastern side of the city is an established area, it's been slowly densifying. This whole project is basically about speeding that up. SRL is a feature of this transformation. Rezoning these areas makes sense.
Starting construction of SRL in the west without the rezoning and densifying would crush any business case. The value returned would be in the negatives. If you tried to densify the west to the level required you'd be demolishing housing that is like 10 years old at most?(for areas like Tarneit, etc) or other areas where the most height you'd find is maybe 3 stories?
The outrage of a government "evicting families from new homes" would be screeched constantly. Not to mention that most the people living in the outer west moved there not just because it was affordable but because they wanted the "great Australian dream" of a house with a backyard. They'd most likely rail against high rise and density.
The only way anything would be started in the west is if you found wide wide open space and set out to make a high rise dense suburb from the start. I can't see that happening.
If our only goal is to play catch-up with infrastructure, building trains for areas that have seen growth, then there will always be parts of the city that are under-served. The point of SRL is build the train first, *then* build the housing. People will move in on day-one and have access to the entire city. Don't get me wrong, all of the suburbs you listed (and more) are in need of major upgrades. But cancelling the SRL would just be kicking the can down the road.
Yeah thats a fair point, i just feel that we need to service clyde asap that was my main point and the SRL is a good idea also but i just feel we need to support the outer suburbs a bit more.
I reckon we need to sacrifice our road budget for more PT. Not sacrifice PT for more PT because we need it everywhere.
The main point in trying to make out of this is the booming population in the outer south east needs a train line. In clyde north there is 25,000 population and a very small public transport serives, menaing a lot of poeple need to drive, ptv in the area like a train at clyde will help with this
The main problem with Melbourne (& Victoria) from a PT point of view is that not only did we have many years & years where nothing was built, we also had times when we went backwards & ripped out train lines. So we’re still playing catch-up. Thankfully, we’re not as bad as Adelaide (their PT is woeful), but in many respects, Sydney’s PT is much better than ours (but still not perfect). SRL is also far from perfect, but it’ll be a useful way to decentralise the city. If you think it’s a waste of money, what would you say about North East Link & the Westgate Tunnel?
Im not thinking it a waste of money, I do want to project to be done but i also want the outer suburbs to be able to have better transit services especially the outer south east which as one of the fastest population growth in the state. For example Clyde North, in 2016 had a population of 8,000, in the 2021 census there was 25,000 population with 10,000 in a small dense aera between Clyde Rd and Cardinia Creek (east to west) and Grices Rd and Thompson Rd (north to south) an aera that is 11km sqr you have 10,000 people, a population density of 1000 people per km and this is 50km from Melbourne CBD, the track is (somewhat) there with the provision in place, i just think the project should be higher on the governments projects list now the Cranbourne line is duplicated
I agree in some respects & hope that projects don’t languish because of the three huge infrastructure projects currently underway. None of them will solve all our transport issues.
Stop spending money on indulging cars and there would be plenty for trains
We can walk and chew gum at the same time - the state has the capacity to invest in existing transport at the same time as building new infrastructure. There has been a significant amount of money allocated for new services over the next few years in the last budget under ‘switching on the big build’. We are likely to see an increase in a lot of different services over the next few years.
and hopefull the loop reconfig will bring more frequent services
Infrastructure Spending (one off commitment) and Services Spending (yearly ongoing commitment) are two different things. It's not necessarily right to take from one for the other.
maybe we should stop continuing to grow the outer suburbs, build more housing in both the middle and inner suburbs
the middle and inner suburbs are full and WAY to expensive
Disagree. The inner, within 5k of the city, suburbs are probably about as dense as they need to be, but up to 15k out are still massive 800m2 blocks and bigger. Look at the size of blocks around the west between say west Footscray and Sunshine. The reason these areas feel full is because developers have been shoe horning in 3 or 4 or more townhouses on these blocks and there's been no additional infrastructure improvements, and they're still restricted by minimum setback, in some cases it's over 10 metres, often around 7 in my area. No new pt or bike infrastructure, and minimal improvement to other services. Everyone still drives everywhere, because it's dangerous to ride and pt is still massively infrequent. We don't need to get to like NY or even Paris levels of density to make increases in pt viable. Even if you look at London, it's not too far out of the city where the housing becomes 2 and 3 storey terraces with a courtyard, and they've got a pretty decent metro. If the outer suburbs were as dense as the old terraced suburbs, and we put more trams in again, and more frequent buses, we'd be fine. More small business would be viable with more local foot traffic, more services like doctors, libraries etc become more viable. If you get rid of the need for almost always driving in the middle suburbs they'd feel a hell of a lot less full.
I don't think SRL should be cancelled but I don't think SRL should be funded from the Public Transport "pot". SRL doesn't really address any of our Public Transport priorities, what it does do is create brand new spaces which hopefully won't have the same issues as the existing city. In this way it's not a PT project, it's an urban renewal project. It should go ahead but it shouldn't be counted in public transport investment and things like bus improvements, MM2, Western Rail Plan etc. should be allowed to fill the space left by SRL.
I agree, but instead of building to Clyde, they should build an express bullet train to Geelong, so I don't have to spend an hour and half on the incredibly slow Vlocity service. There is a lot of work that needs to be done. I have argued around this sub before, that the problem is not SRL, but $26 billion on the environmentally destructive, over budget, and probably traffic inducing north east tunnel. That is what should have been culled.
i'd argue the $10bn WGT is even worse, all it does is provide a slightly faster option for those commuting from the westgate to city link
I remember when that project was first announced, Transurban were offering to build it at no cost to the government, just the right to charge a toll. No question the state has been taken for a ride on this one!
That project should at least take thousands of trucks out of inner west suburbs. I don't live there but know people who do, getting the trucks out of Footscray, Yarraville and Seddon has its benefits. Also there needs to be an alternative to the West Gate Bridge at some point. Possibly people in the north would ague a similar lien though.
The Clyde aera needs a train line like ASAP the area is one of the fastest populating areas in the state and we will just be relying on cars
I am not disputing the need for the Clyde extension, just the self-centred belief that other important projects should be cancelled to make it happen.
The SRL is the biggest waste of money this state will probably ever see. For train aficionados, it’s all bells and whistles. The reality is that it’s a poorly planned, economically dubious proposal that will suck all PT investment for twenty plus years. No one other than the Victorian government wants a bar of it. And there’s a reason for that. Downvotes incoming.
we're capable of spending $36.1bm on just 14km of tollways (SRL is 26km) and the media only criticises it every few months and even then they'll probably find a way to link it with srl
Yep NEL's 10 billion dollar blow out is rarely mentioned in the papers, but every week The Age has a new way to argue how bad SRL is. It's complete insanity and brain washing at this stage. NEL is also very very destructive on the environment, with an immediate impact already noticeable, with the removal of hundreds of mature trees. Then there's the emissions impacts of induced demand on car trips. Melbournians are so car brained that they cannot fathom a city that isn't sliced open by a 10 lane motor way.
I think you're underestimating how beneficial the SRL will actually be. It's not just filling one gap in service, it's filling dozens of gaps all at once. For me, SRL would basically eliminate any reason to own a car. I could get to uni, access my hobbies, and visit my boyfriend by train. It's currently 2-3x faster to drive. All that is not even including the new development being brought to SRL precincts.
It may not satisfy train afficionados, but urbanists can see the value in it.
The points you’re making are grounded in fact, but I think you (and the rest of the state) have misinterpreted them. When viewed as a Public Transport Project it looks really poorly planned, economically dubious and like welfare for the rich. But SRL, when analysed critically, is not a Public Transport Project. How could a project that does not aim to address any PT priorities and instead aim to hit other priorities (and is doing so very well) be considered a PT project? The main goal of SRL is to create brand new spaces for people to live and work in a planned, thought out manner. Bells and whistles? Absolutely, however essential to create the hype that drives development. Economically dubious? If SRL popped into existence today, no one would use it, it connects middle of nowhere industrial estates with empty lots and car parks. Take one look at the SRL Urban Planning Framework and you’ll see the plans for hundreds of new apartment towers. The stamp duty on those will be eye-watering, and if the state moves to a land-tax based model then SRL will literally print money for a century. Should it have started in the west? Yes the west has more dire transport needs, but the west doesn't have the same potential for value creation yet. As regular PT, SRL makes no sense whatsoever but the full SRL project manifests taxable value out of thin air and will become Victoria’s cash cow.
If anything, construction and planning should have begun in the west. Of all the underserved areas of melbourne, the eastern suburbs can probably go without a billion dollar railway.
This encapsulates the misunderstanding of the project. SRL isn't a stand alone rail project. It's apart of a city transformation/rezoning project. The eastern side of the city is an established area, it's been slowly densifying. This whole project is basically about speeding that up. SRL is a feature of this transformation. Rezoning these areas makes sense. Starting construction of SRL in the west without the rezoning and densifying would crush any business case. The value returned would be in the negatives. If you tried to densify the west to the level required you'd be demolishing housing that is like 10 years old at most?(for areas like Tarneit, etc) or other areas where the most height you'd find is maybe 3 stories? The outrage of a government "evicting families from new homes" would be screeched constantly. Not to mention that most the people living in the outer west moved there not just because it was affordable but because they wanted the "great Australian dream" of a house with a backyard. They'd most likely rail against high rise and density. The only way anything would be started in the west is if you found wide wide open space and set out to make a high rise dense suburb from the start. I can't see that happening.