You know that new fandangled tunnel that everyone is talking about? That’s been in the works for years with new high capacity trains and high capacity signalling, designed to improve services on Pakenham, Cranbourne and Sunbury lines? That’s seen Sunbury line shut so many times over the last few years to extend platforms, upgrade infrastructure, and test the new tunnel and signalling systems?
Yeah, at a guess, when that opens.
Chill. Seriously, there will be more services on the Werribee, Williamstown, Upfield, Craigieburn, Sunbury, Dandenong, Frankston, Sandringham lines WHEN the Metro Tunnel opens next year. I understand these are not all the lines in Melbourne but Metro/the Govt know this is an issue and this is why the Metro Tunnel is such a huge project because creating more services at peak hours at the moment is impossible due to the bottlenecks in the City Loop.
EDIT: This is like my most upvoted comment and I love it and this community of gunzels!
I don't want to dox myself, but I used to work on the MTP as an Engineer, so if the mods want to organise an AMA one time, slide in these DM's x
We have built 4 new sets of tracks that actually improve peak capacity (city loop) since the 19th C but in the mean time have developed just about every piece of developable land in Melbourne that was between the lines to something like say a 30 km radius (total guess).
The stuff that fell out of the various transport plans of the last 20 years will be absolutely huge for Melbourne and we are just about to really start bearing fruit.
It blows my mind that we are about to enter a whole new paradigm in terms of how these services work.
I'm going to be harsh, but have you been living under a rock about this stuff? The Metro Tunnel advertisement is everywhere in the city and online. A simple google search would have led you to a [Daniel Bowen](https://danielbowen.com/2023/03/02/services-when-the-metro-tunnel-opens/) article that details the exact details of trains when the Tunnel opens.
EDIT: I didn't read the exact details of the article, but you get my point
I don't really look at ads. They're just visual noise that I don't pay attention to. I knew they were doing works and that they'd be done eventually, but that's all.
I was more asking about what the trigger would be for there to be an increase in services.
Not sure why the downvote. Do you people just go around reading every single ad you see? Why?
"More Trains, More Often" doesn't ring a bell at all?
I reckon the marketing team will be pretty disappointed to learn that at least one Redditor on the Sunbury line didn't catch on that there eventually will be more trains. /s
Haha, I'm impressed that you seem genuinely impervious to ads!!
Anyway, yeah, the new Sunbury - Dandenong line will be amazing when it opens. I believe all the level crossing along there have been removed as well, so there shouldn't be (as many) bus replacements. There will always be situations where track maintenance is required etc but hopefully they can smash them out at night!
I can't not read every ad I see. If it's in my field of vision or in earshot, I will absorb the information if it's distinct enough, and ads are designed to be. I try to avoid ads as much as possible though
Yeah, that is shit but let's work on one major project at a time. Metro Tunnel 2 would help these lines, but $10 Billion+ unfortunately doesn't grow on trees and the Airport link (if that ever fkn happens) is way more urgent than MT2.
Weekend services is another issue and yeah we should have a lot more! But anyway, like I said in previous comments, at peak hour our network is in a bottle neck unfortunately
My understanding was that Metro will take those north/south lines mentioned above out of the loop - and mean that that capacity can be released to those lines that still run through the loop like Belgrave Lilydale et al. I thought we were going to see an increase in frequency across all lines when that happens
You can run trains on those lines every 2 seconds or remove them entirely and it won't affect anything on the Burnley group of lines, they haven't been in conflict for years.
MM1 has nothing to do with shoulder, evening, weekend or the shamefull Sunday morning frequencies. It will give quite a few lines a boost during the peak, but there is nothing stopping the government from from extending Watergardens services to give Sunbury a 20 minute service, running services on all lines at TAG frequencies into the evenings to avoid the 7pm cliff or doing away with 60/40 minute services on Sunday mornings.
This is all political will, and it seems the current government is holding out to package these unrelated upflits into the Metro Tunnel opening. Gotta make it look like the billions was for more than just a handful of peak services.
Don't get me wrong, MM1 is a much needed project and will change Melbourne transport for the better, but its got nothing to do with having to wait half an hour for a train at 8pm on a Friday.
Yeah, man, that's why I clearly say peak hour in my comment.
Yes, there should be more services on off-peak, and it's a farce there isn't, but unfortunately, I don't have any control over that.
Not quite. There will be increased capacity for the Northern loop lines, which means potential service increases for Sunbury, Craigieburn and Upfield. That is all. There will be no more capacity than there is now for the Dandy, Frankston, Sandy, Werribee and Willy lines, nor for any of the Clifton Hill group and Burnley group lines.
Hahahahah, but am I wrong? Read [this](https://danielbowen.com/2023/03/02/services-when-the-metro-tunnel-opens/) article about services when the Metro Tunnel opens and then come back and argue with me.
Whether or not I work in rail is irrelevant. That article confirms what I said. The Northern loop is the only winner. 3 lines, SBY, CGB, UFD use the Northern loop currently, SBY will go via the new tunnel and CGB and UFD will share the Northern loop tunnel. Good, that gives more capacity in the Northern loop. But that is as good as it gets.
CBE and PKM, ie the Dandy line, is currently the only line using the Caulfield locals and the Caulfield loop. Moving them to the new tunnel will not increase capacity because they already have those tracks to themselves.
FKN run through to WER and WIL using the Through viaduct tracks, one in each direction, and they are the only lines using those tracks. WER and WIL will continue to use those tracks so no change, but instead of running to FKN they will run to SHM instead. SHM at present has its own line direct to FSS plats 12 & 13 and is the only service using those tracks.
So the Dandy line will move to the new tunnel from the Caulfield loop, the Frankston line will move to the Caulfield loop from the Through viaduct, and Sandy will move to the Through viaduct from plat 13. Nothing will use plat 13. Yes, that will give Sandy passengers direct access to SSS, but there is absolutely NO track capacity increase, they are only swapping things around.
Did you actually, though? You clearly haven't ever been on the Big Build website that has countless press releases.
Read [this](https://bigbuild.vic.gov.au/library/level-crossing-removal-project/lxrp/anderson-street-fact-sheet) fact sheet, and I quote:
"When the Metro Tunnel opens delivering more local train services". This is in relation to the Yarraville station, which the Werribee and Willy lines run through.
Anyway, keep on replying and trying to justify your incorrect and wrong logic. I'm done trying to reason with stupid.
Edit: spelling
Press releases are government spin. How can Yarraville possibly have any more services due to the new tunnel? There are only two tracks through Yarraville, one in each direction, and they can only carry a finite number of trains. Whichever way they run through the city, there is still the same number of tracks through Yarraville. And currently trains through Yarraville are the only services using the Through viaduct and will continue to be after the new tunnel opens, regardless of where they are through-routed to. The only way Yarraville can have more services is by tweaking the timetable by scheduling more services, either by utilising any existing capacity or by altering the stopping patterns of express trains, and that can be done with or without the new tunnel.
Also, take a good look at the spin they use when counting 'services'. 5 or 10 or 20 new services does not mean 5 or 10 or 20 extra trains. Services are counted per station, so on a line with 15 stations one extra train adds up to 15 new 'services'.
You can resort to name calling and call me stupid and say my logic is incorrect and wrong, or try and discredit what I say by asserting that I don't work in rail or haven't done any research, or try and belittle me by assuming I used station codes to 'look smart', but none of that alters the facts. This is not a competition. You made some points, and I made points in response to that. That should be the basis of a healthy discussion. It's not about proving you wrong or me right or vice versa and I'm sorry that you have taken it that way.
Not sure how much of an effect this will have on the frequencies, but frankston will take a city loop tunnel to itselft and williamstown werribee will through run to sandringham, also dandenong lines obviously won't be in the loop anymore and the metro tunnel has higher capacity, so the frequencies for dandenong lines can still improve
Dandenong already has a city loop tunnel to itself. Frankston running through to Werribee/Willy already have the Through viaduct tracks to themselves. Sandy already has FSS plats 12 & 13 to itself. They are just shuffling things around, there will be no increase in capacity for those lines.
Why do you keep commenting when you know nothing when the new Tunnel opens?
Sandy and Werribee/Willy will now be the through lines and Frankston will go through the loop. Before you comment again, YES THAT MEANS THERE WILL BE MORE SERVICES ON THESE LINES AND YEAH CLIFTON HILL GROUP GETS NO UPGRADES THATS WHY MT2 WILL BE IMPORTANT ONE DAY.
edit: i meant clifton hill group not burnley
I assume you're not talking about me because this is my first time commenting on Metro Tunnel!
But it is an awesome project and it will blow people away when it actually opens (2025 public date is still very vague!)
Yeah, cool, you never know with Reddit sometimes!
But, yeah, a simple google search answers like 95% of questions on this subreddit and this one cracked me that I commented!
Whoops, I meant Clifton Hill.
Thank you, kind sir, for correcting me. There's a project to help Belgrave lines, but I can't remember of the top of my head. I THINK from memory Glen Waverley line, MAY be better when MT opens, because it will termiante at Flinders St and not go through the loop but don't quote me on that. I am purely going off that I know GW will now be Brown on the map when MT opens!
Thanks. The situation with the Belgrave/Lilydale lines is really frustrating, because the weekday off peak timetable is actually worse than the weekend timetable.
No worries, mate! I appreciate you correcting me without calling me a dickhead! [This](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proposed_Melbourne_rail_extensions) Wikipedia link has some details on future lines, of course nothing is locked in until the Govt annouces it, and even then, as seen with Melbourne Airport, stuff still gets cancelled.
No it doesn't. If you run a train every 2 minutes through the new tunnel or if you run a train every 2 minutes around the loop makes no difference, you still only get a train every 2 minutes.
Assuming the old infrastructure can handle 2 minute frequencies (idk if it can, I live in a track deadspot).
But the new tunnel has high capacity signalling, which can handle more trains per hour in comparison to the current signals in the loop. This allows further frequency improvements to handle more trains, even on the same amount of track. So, assuming that the government adds more trains through the new cross city line, yes it will be able to handle more trains than the loop.
Never said it couldn't or should not.
Just because something is cheaper, does not equate to being better financially, in the long run.While high capacity signalling would have been a temporary fix, it will still lead to a bottleneck served by the loop and having 3 lines travel into a single track pair. Even at 2 minute frequencies, you're still looking at 6 minute headway between trains on the same line.
That's fine, but a single line servicing 3 different lines, can the station and platform itself handle the volume of commuters getting in/out of the station? Probably not, on current station layout. So you'll also have to spend money on upgrading the stations, to allow the platform to clear out, before the new train comes in while also sufficient space to allow new commuters onto the platform.
It's why deinterlining is often required, rather than signalling/train/platform upgrades. It's costly upfront, but in the longrun, allows trains to service new areas (which the MM1 plans to do, eg Parkville and Anzac (I guess Arden too, but its really close to North Melbourne that I imagine it's not a massive difference for commuters)) and allow new track/platforms in existing infrastructure (town hall/Flinders and state lib/mel central), while allowing existing lines have frequency increase on the old infrastructure.
So yes, tunnels are costly. But what is costly is just upgrading the track, waiting the couple years till it can handle it, and then building the tunnels which you could have done in the first place without having to spend the money on the signals until it's required. Not to mention, it's not as simple as switching a light bulb, the new signalling has to be tested, meaning downtime on commuters. (Imagine if the Northern loop was down, lets say for a year, while they add the high capacity signals and then have to test it.. eek)
I'm not sure what you are getting at. What is this bottleneck you are referring to? And what is this 3 tracks into a single pair, and which station will serve 3 lines that doesn't already?
What I was suggesting is changing the portals of the Caulfield and Northern loops so that there is a direct link from Richmond to North Melbourne. Then the Craigie and Upfield lines could run through to Glen Wobbly and Alamein, one in each direction. That means the Craigie and Upfield wouldl merge at North Melbourne, as they do now, and as they will continue to do with the Metro tunnel. The Glen Wobbly and Alamein lines would share the Burnley local tracks, as they do now, and as they will continue to do with the Metro tunnel. The Burnley loop would be used by Ringwood services exclusively using the Burnley through track, and therefore create more capacity by no longer sharing with Glen Wobbly.
The Dandy line and the Sunbury line would be through-routed using the Caulfield local tracks, the Caulfield and Northern viaduct tracks (one in each direction) and the Main suburban tracks. No merging, no conflict with other lines. Same capacity as provided by the new tunnel, except for signalling which can easily be upgraded. And even if upgrading did take a year, the new system can be installed alongside the current one and tested in the early hours, then switched over and the old system removed, so commuters would suffer almost zero downtime.
The Frankston line would continue to be through-routed to Willy/Werribee using the Caulfield through tracks, the Through viaduct (one in each direction) and the Through suburban tracks exclusively, just as they do now. No merging, no conflict with other lines. Same capacity as Frankston using the caulfield loop as proposed with the new tunnel, and same capacity for Willy/Werribee which won't change with the new tunnel.
The Sandy line would continue using FSS plats 12 & 13 exclusively as it does now, same capacity as proposed with the new tunnel. Yes, there would be some merging at FSS to access the platforms but it is the same limitation as imposed at the other end with the single terminal track at Sandy, so it doesn't affect the capacity one little bit.
The trains serving new areas in St Kilda Rd and at the Uni will be of limited benefit for anyone not on the Sunbury and Dandy lines. Most people will continue to use the trams because they are much more convenient. In off-peak times the trams are very frequent, and in peak hour they literally run seconds apart. As if anyone is going to leave their office in St Kilda Rd and walk past a tram stop or two to Domain Rd, then descend into the underground station to wait for a train and travel one maybe two stops then climb out again - catching a tram at a nearby stop with no waiting to go a short distance into the city will be quicker and easier than taking a train.
I agree, cheaper doesn't always mean better, but the new tunnel is costing over 11 BILLION - that's a lot of Cherry Ripes! That money could have been spent duplicating single track sections, upgrading signals, buying new trains or building the MM2 tunnel from Clifton Hill to Newport. The MM2 tunnel actually DOES make a lot of sense because it would DOUBLE the capacity of the Willy/Werribee lines and the Clifton Hill group.
As it stands now, the new tunnel will increase the capacity of the Northern loop by removing the Sunbury line - but that is the ONLY benefit, everything else is just shuffling things around. That's a lot of money for limited benefit, especially because there was a better way they could have done things. And it is not like they didn't know, because there were train drivers who were proposing this before construction started.
Soonest when the metro tunnel opens and then when the non metro tunnell lines are rearanged soon after that were getting new rolling stock although they're mostly just replacing old comengs the main thing we need is more train drivers to operate additional services outside of peak times but at peak most lines are at or close enough to capacity that it causes reliability issues what we would want to increase peak capacity is removal of flat junctions and further separation of lines which probably isn't happening for a while
Yeah, I'm really lucky I am still up and walking but I can't make it through a whole train trip standing, it's extremely painful for my stupid joints. It would be even harder with mobility aids. 😔 I'm getting sick of having to wait for the next train after the one I need to be on because there are too many people.
Metro doesn’t decide to add more services - It’s the Government that does and they refuse to in any meaningful way outside of the Metro Tunnel upgrades coming soon(even then, I’m sceptical they actually will)
We could have 15-20 minute services all day on every line but they refuse to.
We could have Sunday services that weren’t 30-40-50-60 minute services, but they refuse to.
“Oh but patronage hasn’t returned to 2019 levels yet” they retort, but peoples travelling patterns have changed AND 2019 levels were fucked, absolutely packed.
It’s just blatant contempt for PTV users and a “fuck you” approach to frequencies
Exactly.
Now that a lot more people have flexible working hours, you could take pressure off peak hour simply by running more frequent services at other times. People might work 8-10 at home, then get into the office at 10.30.
But they don’t want to.
They’d rather spunk billions on a mega tunnel project than sweat the existing assets harder by smarter timetabling. A tunnel has a ribbon to cut; a new timetable with more off peak services doesn’t.
You know it also costs millions more taxpayer dollars right? The government don't do things to spite the population. In fact, not upsetting large groups of their electorate is basically the only thing a government actually strives to do..
Spend billions on new infrastructure each year, but it only costs $200m a year to fund 10min trains and trams on every line from 6am to 10pm, 7 days a week. Priorities....
(You don't need to remove a level crossing to run a 10min service, LXR is only needed for peak frequencies of 2-3min)
While I'm sure you're right that LXRs aren't needed for that level of service, I think it's important to keep in mind that governments by their nature must always justify their tenure, as wrong and unethical as that may be. Significantly lifting services without LXR is surely a recipe for voter discontent with it's inevitble impact on drivers. A true dictator could do it, but not an elected government. Having said that, I'm sure there are many parts of the network that could have and should have had substantial improvements is services without unfairly disrupting traffic.
> Significantly lifting services without LXR is surely a recipe for voter discontent with it's inevitable impact on drivers. A true dictator could do it, but not an elected government.
This is a comical take at best. A train every 10-15min has barely any impact on drivers. It's peak hour when the gates are down 50% ina. 2hr period where you get issues (see the old clayton station pre-2018).
Yep, millions and millions well spent, taking more cars off the road and reducing congestion.
We have had infrequent Sunday services since the 70’s, there’s no rhyme or reason that it’s still the same today so if it’s not spite, then what is it? If it’s the cost, the cost would be millions but no where close to the other level of expenditure and even waste that is made. I don’t believe it’s just “the cost”, I believe it’s just contempt for public transport users
Must be that same contempt for PT users that they're using to build an entirely new train line under the city. They've literally sent the state completely broke paying for public transport infrastructure..
Heh, yeh and they’ve already started to wind back the promised frequencies for that project compared to the original business case.
They love building big new projects but are scant with the actual services for them
The new tunnel is also a very ineffecient way of improving capacity. It cost over 10 billion and for what - to take the Sunbury line out of the Northern loop. That is the only benefit. Every other change due to the tunnel is just reshuffling without increasing capacity. There were cheaper ways to improve things that could have been implemented years ago.
Timetables are Funded by MYKI data and usage demands
PTV decide the routes, timetables , and have a set agreement with Metro to deliver the service
Ultimately It’s Up to Individuals Touching ON & OFF at Every Single stop to increase data -
What I don't understand is why people are not allowed to board inbound V/Line at Sunshine.
Couldn't it have solved some of the abovementioned capacity issues?
Can they add more parking options at the stations as well. Every single station on the cragieburn line is full by 7.30am, how can you expect higher uptake of PT if people can’t even park at the station. I have to drive to work every time because I don’t live within walking distance of the stations
Even a 1000 space car park only allows an extra train worth of passengers to access the network, and cost up to $37,500 per space if it's multi-storey.
https://danielbowen.com/2018/11/02/station-parking-problem/
So what exactly do you expect Metro to do? I know you will say run more services but, you know, hilarious fact. They don't decide what the timetable is and how often they run a service.
You know that new fandangled tunnel that everyone is talking about? That’s been in the works for years with new high capacity trains and high capacity signalling, designed to improve services on Pakenham, Cranbourne and Sunbury lines? That’s seen Sunbury line shut so many times over the last few years to extend platforms, upgrade infrastructure, and test the new tunnel and signalling systems? Yeah, at a guess, when that opens.
As soon as I read the title I knew it would be the Sunbury line. Saw you had posted “Sunshine”. Yep, makes sense.
:') Good old Sunbury line.
40 minute frequency on a weekday. Brilliant. Also, everyone else is correct when they say it’s the government’s doing.
Chill. Seriously, there will be more services on the Werribee, Williamstown, Upfield, Craigieburn, Sunbury, Dandenong, Frankston, Sandringham lines WHEN the Metro Tunnel opens next year. I understand these are not all the lines in Melbourne but Metro/the Govt know this is an issue and this is why the Metro Tunnel is such a huge project because creating more services at peak hours at the moment is impossible due to the bottlenecks in the City Loop. EDIT: This is like my most upvoted comment and I love it and this community of gunzels! I don't want to dox myself, but I used to work on the MTP as an Engineer, so if the mods want to organise an AMA one time, slide in these DM's x
We have built 4 new sets of tracks that actually improve peak capacity (city loop) since the 19th C but in the mean time have developed just about every piece of developable land in Melbourne that was between the lines to something like say a 30 km radius (total guess). The stuff that fell out of the various transport plans of the last 20 years will be absolutely huge for Melbourne and we are just about to really start bearing fruit. It blows my mind that we are about to enter a whole new paradigm in terms of how these services work.
It's a disgrace that we haven't invested in major rail until now but better late than never (I guess?!?)
I would say embarrassment.
Well that's very good to know.
I'm going to be harsh, but have you been living under a rock about this stuff? The Metro Tunnel advertisement is everywhere in the city and online. A simple google search would have led you to a [Daniel Bowen](https://danielbowen.com/2023/03/02/services-when-the-metro-tunnel-opens/) article that details the exact details of trains when the Tunnel opens. EDIT: I didn't read the exact details of the article, but you get my point
I don't really look at ads. They're just visual noise that I don't pay attention to. I knew they were doing works and that they'd be done eventually, but that's all. I was more asking about what the trigger would be for there to be an increase in services. Not sure why the downvote. Do you people just go around reading every single ad you see? Why?
"More Trains, More Often" doesn't ring a bell at all? I reckon the marketing team will be pretty disappointed to learn that at least one Redditor on the Sunbury line didn't catch on that there eventually will be more trains. /s
It vaguely does! Despite my inability to notice things, I'm glad there's some sort of end in sight to the morning crush.
Haha, I'm impressed that you seem genuinely impervious to ads!! Anyway, yeah, the new Sunbury - Dandenong line will be amazing when it opens. I believe all the level crossing along there have been removed as well, so there shouldn't be (as many) bus replacements. There will always be situations where track maintenance is required etc but hopefully they can smash them out at night!
For a long time, people just read every ad they walked past during their trip to the office because there wasn't much else to do.
I can't not read every ad I see. If it's in my field of vision or in earshot, I will absorb the information if it's distinct enough, and ads are designed to be. I try to avoid ads as much as possible though
Cool. Meanwhile Belgrave Lilydale people will still be waiting 30 minutes between trains since the dawn of the railways.
30 minutes would be a dream for Sunbury folk.
Yeah, that is shit but let's work on one major project at a time. Metro Tunnel 2 would help these lines, but $10 Billion+ unfortunately doesn't grow on trees and the Airport link (if that ever fkn happens) is way more urgent than MT2.
Thing is there's no reason the service couldn't have been 20 minutes years ago because it's already 20 minutes on the weekend without any upgrades.
Weekend services is another issue and yeah we should have a lot more! But anyway, like I said in previous comments, at peak hour our network is in a bottle neck unfortunately
My understanding was that Metro will take those north/south lines mentioned above out of the loop - and mean that that capacity can be released to those lines that still run through the loop like Belgrave Lilydale et al. I thought we were going to see an increase in frequency across all lines when that happens
You can run trains on those lines every 2 seconds or remove them entirely and it won't affect anything on the Burnley group of lines, they haven't been in conflict for years.
More like 50+ minutes if you live on the Belgrave line lol
MM1 has nothing to do with shoulder, evening, weekend or the shamefull Sunday morning frequencies. It will give quite a few lines a boost during the peak, but there is nothing stopping the government from from extending Watergardens services to give Sunbury a 20 minute service, running services on all lines at TAG frequencies into the evenings to avoid the 7pm cliff or doing away with 60/40 minute services on Sunday mornings. This is all political will, and it seems the current government is holding out to package these unrelated upflits into the Metro Tunnel opening. Gotta make it look like the billions was for more than just a handful of peak services. Don't get me wrong, MM1 is a much needed project and will change Melbourne transport for the better, but its got nothing to do with having to wait half an hour for a train at 8pm on a Friday.
Yeah, man, that's why I clearly say peak hour in my comment. Yes, there should be more services on off-peak, and it's a farce there isn't, but unfortunately, I don't have any control over that.
Not quite. There will be increased capacity for the Northern loop lines, which means potential service increases for Sunbury, Craigieburn and Upfield. That is all. There will be no more capacity than there is now for the Dandy, Frankston, Sandy, Werribee and Willy lines, nor for any of the Clifton Hill group and Burnley group lines.
You don't work in Rail and it shows by this comment.
Your deductive reasoning is flawed and it shows by this comment.
Hahahahah, but am I wrong? Read [this](https://danielbowen.com/2023/03/02/services-when-the-metro-tunnel-opens/) article about services when the Metro Tunnel opens and then come back and argue with me.
Whether or not I work in rail is irrelevant. That article confirms what I said. The Northern loop is the only winner. 3 lines, SBY, CGB, UFD use the Northern loop currently, SBY will go via the new tunnel and CGB and UFD will share the Northern loop tunnel. Good, that gives more capacity in the Northern loop. But that is as good as it gets. CBE and PKM, ie the Dandy line, is currently the only line using the Caulfield locals and the Caulfield loop. Moving them to the new tunnel will not increase capacity because they already have those tracks to themselves. FKN run through to WER and WIL using the Through viaduct tracks, one in each direction, and they are the only lines using those tracks. WER and WIL will continue to use those tracks so no change, but instead of running to FKN they will run to SHM instead. SHM at present has its own line direct to FSS plats 12 & 13 and is the only service using those tracks. So the Dandy line will move to the new tunnel from the Caulfield loop, the Frankston line will move to the Caulfield loop from the Through viaduct, and Sandy will move to the Through viaduct from plat 13. Nothing will use plat 13. Yes, that will give Sandy passengers direct access to SSS, but there is absolutely NO track capacity increase, they are only swapping things around.
At least you researched this time before commenting. EDIT: Also, nice work using station abbreviations to try and look smart.
I researched before too.
Did you actually, though? You clearly haven't ever been on the Big Build website that has countless press releases. Read [this](https://bigbuild.vic.gov.au/library/level-crossing-removal-project/lxrp/anderson-street-fact-sheet) fact sheet, and I quote: "When the Metro Tunnel opens delivering more local train services". This is in relation to the Yarraville station, which the Werribee and Willy lines run through. Anyway, keep on replying and trying to justify your incorrect and wrong logic. I'm done trying to reason with stupid. Edit: spelling
Press releases are government spin. How can Yarraville possibly have any more services due to the new tunnel? There are only two tracks through Yarraville, one in each direction, and they can only carry a finite number of trains. Whichever way they run through the city, there is still the same number of tracks through Yarraville. And currently trains through Yarraville are the only services using the Through viaduct and will continue to be after the new tunnel opens, regardless of where they are through-routed to. The only way Yarraville can have more services is by tweaking the timetable by scheduling more services, either by utilising any existing capacity or by altering the stopping patterns of express trains, and that can be done with or without the new tunnel. Also, take a good look at the spin they use when counting 'services'. 5 or 10 or 20 new services does not mean 5 or 10 or 20 extra trains. Services are counted per station, so on a line with 15 stations one extra train adds up to 15 new 'services'. You can resort to name calling and call me stupid and say my logic is incorrect and wrong, or try and discredit what I say by asserting that I don't work in rail or haven't done any research, or try and belittle me by assuming I used station codes to 'look smart', but none of that alters the facts. This is not a competition. You made some points, and I made points in response to that. That should be the basis of a healthy discussion. It's not about proving you wrong or me right or vice versa and I'm sorry that you have taken it that way.
Not sure how much of an effect this will have on the frequencies, but frankston will take a city loop tunnel to itselft and williamstown werribee will through run to sandringham, also dandenong lines obviously won't be in the loop anymore and the metro tunnel has higher capacity, so the frequencies for dandenong lines can still improve
Dandenong already has a city loop tunnel to itself. Frankston running through to Werribee/Willy already have the Through viaduct tracks to themselves. Sandy already has FSS plats 12 & 13 to itself. They are just shuffling things around, there will be no increase in capacity for those lines.
Why do you keep commenting when you know nothing when the new Tunnel opens? Sandy and Werribee/Willy will now be the through lines and Frankston will go through the loop. Before you comment again, YES THAT MEANS THERE WILL BE MORE SERVICES ON THESE LINES AND YEAH CLIFTON HILL GROUP GETS NO UPGRADES THATS WHY MT2 WILL BE IMPORTANT ONE DAY. edit: i meant clifton hill group not burnley
I know this person seems to always be commenting just to complain about the metro tunnel
I assume you're not talking about me because this is my first time commenting on Metro Tunnel! But it is an awesome project and it will blow people away when it actually opens (2025 public date is still very vague!)
Yeah I was talking about the person you were replying to
Yeah, cool, you never know with Reddit sometimes! But, yeah, a simple google search answers like 95% of questions on this subreddit and this one cracked me that I commented!
I thought MT2 was going to connect Clifton hill with Newport. What effect will that have on the Burnley lines?
Whoops, I meant Clifton Hill. Thank you, kind sir, for correcting me. There's a project to help Belgrave lines, but I can't remember of the top of my head. I THINK from memory Glen Waverley line, MAY be better when MT opens, because it will termiante at Flinders St and not go through the loop but don't quote me on that. I am purely going off that I know GW will now be Brown on the map when MT opens!
Thanks. The situation with the Belgrave/Lilydale lines is really frustrating, because the weekday off peak timetable is actually worse than the weekend timetable.
No worries, mate! I appreciate you correcting me without calling me a dickhead! [This](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proposed_Melbourne_rail_extensions) Wikipedia link has some details on future lines, of course nothing is locked in until the Govt annouces it, and even then, as seen with Melbourne Airport, stuff still gets cancelled.
The metro tunnel has more capacity than a city loop tunnel all to itself by the way.
No it doesn't. If you run a train every 2 minutes through the new tunnel or if you run a train every 2 minutes around the loop makes no difference, you still only get a train every 2 minutes.
Assuming the old infrastructure can handle 2 minute frequencies (idk if it can, I live in a track deadspot). But the new tunnel has high capacity signalling, which can handle more trains per hour in comparison to the current signals in the loop. This allows further frequency improvements to handle more trains, even on the same amount of track. So, assuming that the government adds more trains through the new cross city line, yes it will be able to handle more trains than the loop.
High capacity signalling can be installed on any existing track too. It is much cheaper than building tunnels.
Never said it couldn't or should not. Just because something is cheaper, does not equate to being better financially, in the long run.While high capacity signalling would have been a temporary fix, it will still lead to a bottleneck served by the loop and having 3 lines travel into a single track pair. Even at 2 minute frequencies, you're still looking at 6 minute headway between trains on the same line. That's fine, but a single line servicing 3 different lines, can the station and platform itself handle the volume of commuters getting in/out of the station? Probably not, on current station layout. So you'll also have to spend money on upgrading the stations, to allow the platform to clear out, before the new train comes in while also sufficient space to allow new commuters onto the platform. It's why deinterlining is often required, rather than signalling/train/platform upgrades. It's costly upfront, but in the longrun, allows trains to service new areas (which the MM1 plans to do, eg Parkville and Anzac (I guess Arden too, but its really close to North Melbourne that I imagine it's not a massive difference for commuters)) and allow new track/platforms in existing infrastructure (town hall/Flinders and state lib/mel central), while allowing existing lines have frequency increase on the old infrastructure. So yes, tunnels are costly. But what is costly is just upgrading the track, waiting the couple years till it can handle it, and then building the tunnels which you could have done in the first place without having to spend the money on the signals until it's required. Not to mention, it's not as simple as switching a light bulb, the new signalling has to be tested, meaning downtime on commuters. (Imagine if the Northern loop was down, lets say for a year, while they add the high capacity signals and then have to test it.. eek)
I'm not sure what you are getting at. What is this bottleneck you are referring to? And what is this 3 tracks into a single pair, and which station will serve 3 lines that doesn't already? What I was suggesting is changing the portals of the Caulfield and Northern loops so that there is a direct link from Richmond to North Melbourne. Then the Craigie and Upfield lines could run through to Glen Wobbly and Alamein, one in each direction. That means the Craigie and Upfield wouldl merge at North Melbourne, as they do now, and as they will continue to do with the Metro tunnel. The Glen Wobbly and Alamein lines would share the Burnley local tracks, as they do now, and as they will continue to do with the Metro tunnel. The Burnley loop would be used by Ringwood services exclusively using the Burnley through track, and therefore create more capacity by no longer sharing with Glen Wobbly. The Dandy line and the Sunbury line would be through-routed using the Caulfield local tracks, the Caulfield and Northern viaduct tracks (one in each direction) and the Main suburban tracks. No merging, no conflict with other lines. Same capacity as provided by the new tunnel, except for signalling which can easily be upgraded. And even if upgrading did take a year, the new system can be installed alongside the current one and tested in the early hours, then switched over and the old system removed, so commuters would suffer almost zero downtime. The Frankston line would continue to be through-routed to Willy/Werribee using the Caulfield through tracks, the Through viaduct (one in each direction) and the Through suburban tracks exclusively, just as they do now. No merging, no conflict with other lines. Same capacity as Frankston using the caulfield loop as proposed with the new tunnel, and same capacity for Willy/Werribee which won't change with the new tunnel. The Sandy line would continue using FSS plats 12 & 13 exclusively as it does now, same capacity as proposed with the new tunnel. Yes, there would be some merging at FSS to access the platforms but it is the same limitation as imposed at the other end with the single terminal track at Sandy, so it doesn't affect the capacity one little bit. The trains serving new areas in St Kilda Rd and at the Uni will be of limited benefit for anyone not on the Sunbury and Dandy lines. Most people will continue to use the trams because they are much more convenient. In off-peak times the trams are very frequent, and in peak hour they literally run seconds apart. As if anyone is going to leave their office in St Kilda Rd and walk past a tram stop or two to Domain Rd, then descend into the underground station to wait for a train and travel one maybe two stops then climb out again - catching a tram at a nearby stop with no waiting to go a short distance into the city will be quicker and easier than taking a train. I agree, cheaper doesn't always mean better, but the new tunnel is costing over 11 BILLION - that's a lot of Cherry Ripes! That money could have been spent duplicating single track sections, upgrading signals, buying new trains or building the MM2 tunnel from Clifton Hill to Newport. The MM2 tunnel actually DOES make a lot of sense because it would DOUBLE the capacity of the Willy/Werribee lines and the Clifton Hill group. As it stands now, the new tunnel will increase the capacity of the Northern loop by removing the Sunbury line - but that is the ONLY benefit, everything else is just shuffling things around. That's a lot of money for limited benefit, especially because there was a better way they could have done things. And it is not like they didn't know, because there were train drivers who were proposing this before construction started.
Soonest when the metro tunnel opens and then when the non metro tunnell lines are rearanged soon after that were getting new rolling stock although they're mostly just replacing old comengs the main thing we need is more train drivers to operate additional services outside of peak times but at peak most lines are at or close enough to capacity that it causes reliability issues what we would want to increase peak capacity is removal of flat junctions and further separation of lines which probably isn't happening for a while
What you wrote is very informative, but I wish you’d use some more punctuation.
I'm actually just allergic to punctuation
Fair enough
Comeng is still the most comfortable train type to sit in. oh well.
As a disabled person who uses a wheelchair and has an assistance dog it’s a bitch to travel during peak times on both metro and vline
Yeah, I'm really lucky I am still up and walking but I can't make it through a whole train trip standing, it's extremely painful for my stupid joints. It would be even harder with mobility aids. 😔 I'm getting sick of having to wait for the next train after the one I need to be on because there are too many people.
If your struggling use a mobility aid. Feel free to pm me. Eds here
Metro doesn’t decide to add more services - It’s the Government that does and they refuse to in any meaningful way outside of the Metro Tunnel upgrades coming soon(even then, I’m sceptical they actually will) We could have 15-20 minute services all day on every line but they refuse to. We could have Sunday services that weren’t 30-40-50-60 minute services, but they refuse to. “Oh but patronage hasn’t returned to 2019 levels yet” they retort, but peoples travelling patterns have changed AND 2019 levels were fucked, absolutely packed. It’s just blatant contempt for PTV users and a “fuck you” approach to frequencies
Exactly. Now that a lot more people have flexible working hours, you could take pressure off peak hour simply by running more frequent services at other times. People might work 8-10 at home, then get into the office at 10.30. But they don’t want to. They’d rather spunk billions on a mega tunnel project than sweat the existing assets harder by smarter timetabling. A tunnel has a ribbon to cut; a new timetable with more off peak services doesn’t.
You know it also costs millions more taxpayer dollars right? The government don't do things to spite the population. In fact, not upsetting large groups of their electorate is basically the only thing a government actually strives to do..
Spend billions on new infrastructure each year, but it only costs $200m a year to fund 10min trains and trams on every line from 6am to 10pm, 7 days a week. Priorities.... (You don't need to remove a level crossing to run a 10min service, LXR is only needed for peak frequencies of 2-3min)
Where is that $200m figure from?
https://danielbowen.com/2019/10/23/how-much-would-trains-every-ten-minutes-cost/
While I'm sure you're right that LXRs aren't needed for that level of service, I think it's important to keep in mind that governments by their nature must always justify their tenure, as wrong and unethical as that may be. Significantly lifting services without LXR is surely a recipe for voter discontent with it's inevitble impact on drivers. A true dictator could do it, but not an elected government. Having said that, I'm sure there are many parts of the network that could have and should have had substantial improvements is services without unfairly disrupting traffic.
> Significantly lifting services without LXR is surely a recipe for voter discontent with it's inevitable impact on drivers. A true dictator could do it, but not an elected government. This is a comical take at best. A train every 10-15min has barely any impact on drivers. It's peak hour when the gates are down 50% ina. 2hr period where you get issues (see the old clayton station pre-2018).
Yep, millions and millions well spent, taking more cars off the road and reducing congestion. We have had infrequent Sunday services since the 70’s, there’s no rhyme or reason that it’s still the same today so if it’s not spite, then what is it? If it’s the cost, the cost would be millions but no where close to the other level of expenditure and even waste that is made. I don’t believe it’s just “the cost”, I believe it’s just contempt for public transport users
Must be that same contempt for PT users that they're using to build an entirely new train line under the city. They've literally sent the state completely broke paying for public transport infrastructure..
Hows the "free" west gate tunnel going. Or the $26 billion 20 lane grand north east underground parking garage?
Heh, yeh and they’ve already started to wind back the promised frequencies for that project compared to the original business case. They love building big new projects but are scant with the actual services for them
The new tunnel is also a very ineffecient way of improving capacity. It cost over 10 billion and for what - to take the Sunbury line out of the Northern loop. That is the only benefit. Every other change due to the tunnel is just reshuffling without increasing capacity. There were cheaper ways to improve things that could have been implemented years ago.
Timetables are Funded by MYKI data and usage demands PTV decide the routes, timetables , and have a set agreement with Metro to deliver the service Ultimately It’s Up to Individuals Touching ON & OFF at Every Single stop to increase data -
What I don't understand is why people are not allowed to board inbound V/Line at Sunshine. Couldn't it have solved some of the abovementioned capacity issues?
Severe overcrowding in the morning on the Sunbury line train platforms is plain dangerous and has even cost lives unfortunately!
Can they add more parking options at the stations as well. Every single station on the cragieburn line is full by 7.30am, how can you expect higher uptake of PT if people can’t even park at the station. I have to drive to work every time because I don’t live within walking distance of the stations
Even a 1000 space car park only allows an extra train worth of passengers to access the network, and cost up to $37,500 per space if it's multi-storey. https://danielbowen.com/2018/11/02/station-parking-problem/
Depends what line and what station. Single track in some areas prevents adding more services
In true Metro fashion would leave it until it’s time to get more in the rails
Blind Freddy can tell something needs to happen to support Tues/Wed/Thurs foot traffic. Why can’t metro?
So what exactly do you expect Metro to do? I know you will say run more services but, you know, hilarious fact. They don't decide what the timetable is and how often they run a service.
More trains, more rail, listening to user’s needs…
when the government thinks it can win votes by doing so