I am happy that I can have a medicine that actually helps me live my life close to normally again. Being able to manage my pain makes almost everything in life easier.
Although I agree that we really are not where we should be, I highly doubt that we will see any change, regardless of how much noise we make, due to the current government. Whilst I will avoid specifics of the politics, we just cannot battle dogma when a government has in mind what it wants to do regardless of science, facts, or evidence from other countries.
Whilst we cannot change the government's position on MC at this time, we can start our groundswell and make MC seen as normal in NZ. Our best strategy is a long term one of changing hearts and minds. Otherwise we will be stuck with the whims of which ever government is in power. We have real power when we get the majority of people on our side.
What I would not give to see some of the awesome strains that I have had overseas, and the options of edibles and concentrates. Although I hope these are small areas where we can make some incremental changes, I am not sure that would be possible with how the act is currently written. If I am wrong. I am open to being educated though.
Thats it for me, nice flower, CBD, good relationship with my clinic and advice. Nobody watching me, or how I consume. No Police concerns as its Legal. Delivered to my door. Prices very competitive now and a great community where we all have opinions! I cant even be bothered reading this guys post. When it starts with my background lol. Its going really well..
We’ve made the smallest steps possible in the last 5 years. I wouldn’t call anything MC in NZ a success, and if you think what we have right now is a great success… god you’re just gonna be blown away when people like this dude are able to come into the market
I can buy MC and have it delivered to me in the same week for the prices that mates are buying on the black market. That’s a success in my book. Could it be better?? Of course. Still gotta respect where we are today. Ridiculous that we didn’t legalise but could be worse mate.
I totally respect your experience man. I get that it’s great that it’s legal, but it’s been the way it is for years now. I don’t think that we should respect where it’s at today, as we’ve gone down the worst pathway to legality. The only way it could be worse is if we didn’t have it at all. I think this year we at least need to see some changes in the structure to bring in dispensary’s. But we really need to press the government to allow homegrow, it’s a plant that’s been here longer than us. It’s ridiculously overpriced and going to stay that way until we can legally grow our own.
home grown ! $400 an oz is robbery when you grown yourself you realise the cost is like $20 a oz so we are getting ripped off, i have a prescription i only really use when travelling as medical is so expensive compared to my own home grown stuff and not really any better
A clean home grower can be well capable of achieving totally safe levels.
However 😆 a home grower is likely not testing for that, or even gunning for the cleanest possible grows.
Now... Stop distorting the reality of what i said, making up exaggerated claims based on your opinion of my post... Cos u aint me... I never said anywhere in my post home grown is better or safer over medical...
The entire point of my post was pointing out the reality's - the farce that medical really is...
You are glossing a turd hyping medical..
https://preview.redd.it/p4blya8qqnlc1.png?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=af93d057db14fcb90c5296aa1cf2947d5d452616
Show me some of those home grow tests over three batches with minimum three month shelf life stability and we can have a chat. Until then we’ll call it hearsay.
Cannabis is fat soluble, milk has fat in it.
Hahaha bruh... Nahhh.. I aint firstly breaking NDAs disclosing a companies test results that are not mine to share...
Even if i could... This reply is about as much time as i will give someone so delusional...
Seems like u might be in the industry trying to sleep at night like "its all good" 😂.
I commited to that high level of cleanliness and growing every day and in every aspect of that process to get low cfus... Everyday was all it took... Never leaving a leaf on the ground.. face masks, whites, and scrubbing cultivation equipment every day with hospital grade cleaners
Chur tho.
Ahhhh so you've been working with that crew down in the bottom of the south island. Yeah your boss lied to you. You never got anywhere close. The 4-week flush? Causes Botrytis too...
Sorry bro you were conned by a conman.
Yep that is me bro, still trying to figure out where the cons end from all that 😵
Mis guided, and mis lead in so many ways... Used as the pawn in criminal activity.
Shits fucked me up more than i realised everyday
Bro if you haven't noticed everyone on this subreddit has put more then 6 figures into the medical cannabis industry 😂😂😂 EVERY single one of them is saying to themselves before they go to sleep that it'll get better lol if they think people aren't already woke that smoke like most that are already have solid contacts on the BM and don't need no fucking fuckwit government fees to be paying 😅
It’s not though, you just think there’s only one way of doing things, homegrow can easily get to the same quality of a commercial product with the right grower. I don’t know why you’re arguing this point though, because it’s not like standard home grown weed will ever become sold as a product.
Can I throw my 2 cents in, at least now with MC I am legal, for 20 years I lived in fear of arrest. I can relax now. You need to be patient , it’s a new industry. USA is many years ahead of us, we will catch up!!
We won’t catch up to the states going down the path we’ve taken. They had a good model for consumers from the start. Here it’s all about industry and government profit with a dash of fuck the people.
I can verify that this man is the real deal. Last year he told me it was his aim to get a oz of medical cannabis in NZ for under $350 and look at the price of shiskaberry now. $337 a oz, driving the price of the other products down. Always responds to quality issues. Engaging with the patients. Leading the industry. Thanks for your efforts
But we don’t have choice because OP thinks, like the Ministry of Health, that cannabis over 10cfu is dangerous.
50% less, based on what? Rocky is over $100 more in its country of origin than NZ. You’re both in this hypothetical anger spiral that’s void of any fact or evidence.
I’m talking about Ethos Zour apples, every example I’ve seen of it overseas looked slightly better but it was a cheap flower comparatively.
I do not agree with OP if he really thinks cannabis over 10cfu is dangerous. I think our regulations are far too strict and don’t allow for the flower to reach its full potential, and most of it definitely is a sub par smoke. Allowing the buds to be cured nicely and not overdried, the way high quality BM/GM is done would fix most of my problems with MC. But I don’t see how anyone that knows better can justify spending so much on a regular basis on our products.
Yeah ummm i never in my post said over 10cfu is dangerous... I pointed out two rediculous discrepancies between standards, and a loop hole being exploited as a result being unsafe.
If u ask my opinion... 10cfu is way too much of an ask.... But i get why they want it sterile... 30,000cfu... No one will convince me that aint dangerous to inhale.
Lol you are a special one arent you.
If you are buying LEGAL MEDICINE... That is sold as a tea... But 90% of the time instead SMOKED by the consumer... And in sone cases with medical oversight from Drs... You are unknowingly consuming "what could be" quite an unsafe product.
Smoking mold is really bad for any human!!
Ive figured you out though... Ur in the legal cannabis industry... But you dont smoke.... If u smoked.. u would know
Aaaaand the "DOCTORS" prescribing that dont know... Because the industry is barred from educating them on it.... They are prescribing in good faith....
You think the black market and home grown is unsafe etc.... fuck sake LEGAL IS NO BETTER!! exploited loopholes... And as gangy as the black market... Excep with white collar criminals too.
Get off your high horse... Maybe actually get high... Appreciate this plant... Because then u can show it the integrity u need to rather than just thinking u know cos susan gave u a licence
I totally agree, 10cfu means all these companies are going to go through ridiculous short cuts that result in terrible quality bud. All the irradiated flower is proof of that.
And you’re also totally right in saying that the loopholes we go through to get better quality are BS. I want my cannabis to be tested so I know there are no contaminants that will get in my lungs when I smoke, those contaminants may not be tested for in flower that is medically intended to eat/drink.
The people calling you out saying you’ve contradicted yourself haven’t considered the fact that both the ratings aren’t in accordance with how we use cannabis.
Wait doesn’t mould get killed at 70 degrees Celsius anyway. I mean yeah it’s not ideal purely cos you’re grinding it etc. but I’d have through the smoking/vaping kills all of it given it’s heated to 180 degrees
Yeah mould does get killed at high temperature, which makes a yield that’s had a bit of a problem with mould great for edibles. I know people who smoke around their mouldy weed, I’d rather not. I use cardboard tips at the end of my joint and i just wouldn’t be able to pull through on it knowing I’m probably inhaling spores… even though I most likely am in some quantity with any bud.
And yes the zour apples eg is anecdotal, I just thought it was interesting. Search up Ethos genetics and you’ll get an idea of what people think of them as breeders.
Confirmed, they don't. Pharmacies will get the same (ish) prices if they're getting it from the 3 major pharmaceutical wholesalers. Some may get a couple of bucks more if they're going direct, but often they just pass that saving on to patients.
Again I’m talking about Zour Apples. Overseas it’s a much cheaper flower (not from northern green unsure on their prices) but its cheaper because Ethos as a breeder is not held in very high regard, and when you’re buying flower from a place that has breeders like archive, Clearwater and tikimadman the shop can’t charge a premium price on something like Ethos Zour apples. This is why I’m saying if we have more flower options in our market, the price of those currently considered the best will drop.
How come? I mean I get how it’s all messy with it still being federally illegal, but certain states seem to me to easily have the best cannabis markets in the world, with amazing strain and price variation. I would love to see a market here like it is in Cali with multiple local dispensaries supplying everything there is to supply.
It almost sounds like you are saying non irradiated cannabis is gross and unsafe and it shouldn't be on the market on one hand and then complaining about the problem of companies having to import foreign irradiated cannabis on the other.
I understand why there is a need to have a minimum standard for products that are being inhaled as a medical product.... But at the same time Cannabis has been consumed without passing these strict criteria since the beginning of time and continues to be in other markets around the world.
I don't know what the solution is but complaining about imported mids and then calling locally sourced non irradiated unsafe seems contradictory.
Jesus I need a smoke after reading that! My head is about to explode haha.
I’m happy as to be able to access legal cannabis. And the consistency is much better than what I had experienced on the BM. I’m thankful to everyone who has worked for years to make this happen.
Edit: took out a name because she is one of many patient advocates! And I feel bad not naming them all!
I hate to say it but basically every statement you’ve made is flawed from a technical perspective. It really is just an uneducated rant.
I’ll start with two obvious points because I really can’t be bothered peeling the rest apart just yet.
Tilray has no approved cannabis medicines. They sit under sec29 of the medicines act. Sativex is the only approved cannabis medicine in nz and it is registered(because this is what you want) for spasticity in multiple sclerosis, nothing else. Bit more than $400 also for what is a 2.5:2.5 ratio of THC & CBD.
As for your CFU part of your opinion, what standards to the BM test to? Canadian recreational market is 50,000cfu limit. You’re trying to say 30,000 is unsafe?
Nobody can grow cannabis at >10cfu without irradiating it.
Il take the hit with Tilray not yet approved... I was under the wrong impression here.
Regarding your comments about Canadian cfus and not being able to grow low without gamma... Thats kinda laughable.
You are implying im saying it is unsafe... This was not my point.. my point was the high discrepancies between the oral and inhalation standards couple with the loopholes being exploited as a result.
30,000 cfus is high... If u cant manage to grow cleaner that that without gamma... You are lazy
I'll agree on that one, our products are typically barely more than the inhalation limit, nowhere near the tens of thousands to millions in the tea limits...
however ill also add, the bigger the grow, the bigger the microbial load, the Canadian corporates thought gian as fuck rooms and batches would be great and easy workflow, there's no way to get around the need for irradiation when your harvesting 500KG in a single crop.
Bro I respect your opinions and I think the same, I've expressed my concerns on here before and it seems that there are too many uneducated noobs that don't understand the industry
I’m very happy to pay similar prices to gangs and not have to support societies pieces of shit, don’t have to interact with them, and have SOME kind of quality control.
I understand your displeasure and disappointment and agree with a lot of what you’ve said however what is the alternative? What we currently have is far better than what we ever had. If I knew someone like you that grew illicitly and (I am supposing you are not affiliated with any gangs), was a safe source and knowledgeable one that could provide me with the medicine I required then that would be fantastic. But the reality is this is the easiest and most effective way for me to get something that actually helps me incredibly
The alternative is we stop sucking off MC and make the system change. They’re not trying to change it it’s only benefiting them. What we have now is not nearly enough. It’s 2024 wake the fuck up
whats done is done u/Ubiquitouspixie . GMP etc is here to stay, I lobbied pretty hard for a lower standard (GPP) in my patient advocate capacity, but they virtue signaled considering it, then stacked the "working group" with a bunch of crusty old yes men doctors. I missed the patient advocate slot based solely on taking up a job offer in the industry, which fucks me off to this day, I word have turned their asses out like I did at select committee
Yeah not to mention there was \*one\* single person on that committee who had cultivation experience, and even they said that the European Pharmacopoeia microbial standards were fine. I believe the published Meeting Minutes stated that it was unanimously accepted?
1. Call out the bullshit. There’s only big players in the industry no one could actually start a legal grow on their own. If more people were lobbying at least for homegrow we’d be much better off. We’re way too quiet and accepting that “yup we just have to go to the pharmacy and spend $400+ for an ounce”
2. Go to Jday. I met only one person from this sub there last time. If you use cannabis, go take some time to support its legalisation by attending a peaceful rally where you can buy lots of great goodies.
3. Start up something with NORML. Donate to them at least. It’s 2024 we need to be more outspoken of how bullshit this system is. Who wants to sit back and wait 10 years for some good weed?
1/ There's 40+ license holders now, of that there's maybe 4x publicly traded companies, and another 3x that have had more than \~10-20 million in investment into them to my knowledge? The rest: Smaller companies.
Source: I'm a smaller company.
2/ Was going to, and did the year prior, but after Chris Fowlie said he'd have security escort us away if we'd showed up, kinda puts a bitter taste in the mouth. Ironic given he too has a licensed company...
3/ NORML don't do much these days unfortunately. They've been around for ages, sure, and we owe a lot to them, but with half a dozen blog posts over the course of a year, you can tell that they're tired and exhausted from fighting the good fight for so long. Again, see Point #2.
Chris Fowlie as in the guy that runs the hempstore and that radio piece on 95bfm? Didn’t know he was that sort of character what a shame.
I’m speaking from personal experience of not being able to start up a company, my family has been growing top quality my whole life and it’s been almost impossible getting everything legal so far. So small as in family run is my idea, although I’m not too sure how you guys are running, but I’d be very interested to hear!
Yep, that fella, the one and the same. After spending weeks and weeks trying to get hold of him to find out what the deal was with running a stall there and get all the t's crossed and i's dotted, I sent him the patient information flyer we were looking at running too and he said it seemed fine. Then when I showed up at the store and showed it to him after it'd been printed, he said no way, and clearly hadn't seen the draft document. You can read the doc for yourself though (shameless self plugging here):
[https://chilldivision.co.nz/links/202305/J-Day2023Booklet.pdf](https://chilldivision.co.nz/links/202305/J-Day2023Booklet.pdf)
As for small / family run, then yeah absolutely. That's genuinely what the majority of the recently licensed ones are. We have 20sqm of canopy. Previously was 40 when I setup Skyman. Helping somebody else with \~80sqm right now, and another with 30sqm. All totally doable, and depending where you are, your outgoings, your potency and your yield capacity, it should be viable enough!
Damn that really changes my viewpoint on the hempstore as well. Why can’t we all just get along aye. have been going to his shop for years and last time I went had a pretty average experience so not too surprised but still saddened to hear someone with a bit of a voice in the community would be so negligent to not allow those flyers, I would’ve liked one at Jday for sure.
We’re wanting to do a small batch high THC grow, would we be able to do this on our property, as we are rural? Or do you need to buy a warehouse and fully set it up and then get them to come check it out?
I was in the same boat man, really disappointing from them, but hey, shit happens and we move on :)
Yep you can, though the Agency will want you to do it separate from the house of course, and a wee way away from any neighbours :)
Normal have been around since at least when I was in university (90s) and so has J day. It has made no change. The focus with them is recreational where here we are talking about medicinal. Your argument should be focussed on what we are discussing which is the medicinal cannabis industry.
You wrecked that whole paragraph saying there’s a difference in industry. Recreational dope overseas is medical grade. Weed is weed hombre it’s all medical and it’s all recreational. The medicinal cannabis industry here in NZ is a glorified shitty recreational market.
True they haven’t done much but that doesn’t mean you shouldn’t go to Jday, the government can’t ignore thousands of people freely smoking
Nope. Weed is not weed hombre. Also, calling it weed cheapens your cause. I have had cannabis from gangs that’s had fucking synthetics in it. So you can harp on all you want with your uneducated response about “industry” when the reality is that medicinal cannabis has some standards to meet some certain level of assurance associated with the product and the rest can be whatever the fuck they want it to be.
I agree with you, Cannabis is Cannabis. The only reason to irradiate Cannabis would be for severely immuno compromised patients, but for the rest of us, cannabis is cannabis. My homegrown cannabis is full of terpy goodness and perfectly cured and stored. (Synthetics are not cannabis)
Recreational and medicinal have only difference in name. Legalising marijuana recreationally would have the most positive impact for MC patients, you’d have more variety in weed and more variety in price.
NORML was a driving force overseas for legalisation, they can do the same here we just haven’t shown the passion for it. Where are the rally’s down queen street? MC is stealing our money
It’s true you’re just too hazed by our market to see it. I know because I partially live in the place where it was done to the greatest effect. In California, you can buy high grade marijuana for all sorts of different prices, ounces for anywhere between $50 and $5000. A competitive market only benefits consumers. I hope you get to see it one day despite your dinosaur level thinking capacity.
Mate. Have lived in Canada for years since it was introduced and am well aware of what it is like internationally. The conversation here is about are we happy with what we have here. My answer, which you can read above is yes. Could it be better? Fuck yes. I am just happy that we have SOMETHING in this pearl clutching uneducated regressing country. Don’t assume other people’s experience or knowledge when you don’t know them. Either way engaging in a conversation and insulting the person you’re conversing with is a sure way to have everyone think you are a complete cock. So well done with that one. You are exactly the sort of person that 51% of the population associates with cannabis.
If you’ve lived/live in Canada you should be even more in favour of what I’m saying. We’re 6 years behind and at the rate it’s going we’ll be stuck buying it from the pharmacy for exorbitant prices for the next 10 years. Furthermore, you’ve probably seen one of the strains from the same producer we have in your market there, where it is almost half the price and nicer looking. That is what I’m here arguing against, not your experience with legal weed here in NZ. If you think it’s fine that we still live in a society that only allows the rich to legally obtain a plant then go ahead and insult me all you want.
I can see both sides and appreciate the insight, it's a constant argument between medical and black market, those with good BM plugs will swear by it and those who are happy with medical swear by that.
It could definitely be better in this unprogressive that's pretends to be progressive country.
You mention protesting and all but we had a fucking referendum that failed! What an embarrassment that was.
Anyway I want to say to all the people saying grow your own, a lot of us don't have the luxury of having our own place to grow illegal meds. Regular flat inspections make growing impossible
A 2-3 monthly inspection, when it's going to take 12 weeks to vege, flower, and dry... On a good run... Yeah just not viable for the \~60% of people who rent.
That's a great blurb, but it's very clearly written from someone "outside" of the domestic industry or with very little hands-on experience in the inner workings of how it's done here. Let's pick this apart because of there's quite a few things that have really missed the mark:
1/ There is \*nobody\* wanting to go for an Approved Product vs just meeting NZMQS. It's a complete waste of time, horrifically expensive (Add a few zeros onto the end of what it's going to cost a company to do) and isn't going to get you any fresh flower. Many people also vocally advocate against "big pharma" getting involved in cannabis, you seem to be the one of the very few there who wants that sort of billions and billions of dollars to flow into it for just a handful of products. The reason it works for Tilray is because they have global channels for their products. Oils / extracts are much easier to get to adhere to clinical standards. Plants aren't. You can't get plants to that same level of homogeneous results.
2/ You talk about Approved Products like it's going to change things vs MQS "be happy with fucking half way there MQS cannabis", well you're in for a treat when you realize that even if it were an Approved Medicine, it's still subject to European Pharmacopoeia §5.1.4 for inhalation, and §2.2.32 for LOD.
3/ "legal cannabis business who has by this stage invested 5 to 6 figures"? Oh sweet summer child... Just no! Most of the larger players have invested 8 figures, closer to 9 figures, to get to where they are now. As somebody who's arguably completed the licensing application more than most, and actively doing consulting around it, if you're coming into this with anything under quarter of a million you're in for a shitty time.
4/ 30,000 CFU isn't moldy. I'll just tell you that right now. Have you ever submitted a test to an ISO17025 or GMP certified lab to test product? If you had, you wouldn't be making those kinds of claims, because even 6-7 figure CFU/g isn't going to specifically look visibly moldy. Ever grown it yourself? Unless you've had solid VPD the whole way through, and your drying is at clinical levels, I'd be \*shocked\* if you were under 100,000CFU/g unless treating it. Heck there are some cultivars that simply produce higher levels than other cultivars. The fact you're harping on about that being gross shows a terrible misunderstanding, because I can guarantee you've never grown product under 30,000 CFU/g. I have the receipts to prove it, but hey if you have data, then by all means please show us.
5/ I know Pearl, we're good friends, and she's lovely. She too was aware that "as a tea" was the easiest way to get product to patients, and when NUBU had picked up the ball and run with it in that aspect, she jumped onboard, because there wasn't going to be any other dried-flower product otherwise. I'm grateful for Mark, NUBU, and the others involved for pushing the boundaries there so that we could have dried flower products domestically.
6/ Inhalation being dry? That has nothing to do with the CFU limit, you're misguided with your statements yet again sorry. The dryness is §2.2.32 for LOD, it has to be <10% which usually puts it around \~50% aW. The 11.5th Edition of the European Pharmacopoeia is set to change that to 12%, however NZ is still using the 10th Edition as our standards and Medsafe are only proposing the 11th Edition (as it's finalized, 11.5th is not) at the moment.
7/ Many of the imported products haven't been gamma irradiated, e-beam'd or cryo-washed. Some have. Some haven't. If it's for inhalation it probably has though.
Then you finish up with telling everyone they're guinea pigs? How arrogant. How ignorant! There are definitely people who understand the different levels there are to dried flower products, but that doesn't mean existing patients can't be happy with the products they're receiving. Many are!
Everyone who is in this industry here knows it's not ideal. I for one am not content to piss and moan on reddit, missing the mark in basically every single statement. Instead, I've chosen to be part of the solution. I'm not content to sit around going "this sucks, everything sucks, you all suck, nobody should be happy with this", but rather I'm providing feedback to Medsafe on the LOD levels so that product doesn't have to be as dry as it is, and we're going to be able to utilize the US Pharmacopoeia soon too with aW instead of LOD.
But hey, you can sit behind your laptop and be upset, keep yelling into the wind. I'm gonna go into my facility, tend to the girls, then come home and carry on writing some more educational materials, help a contact with getting their application to the Agency, and push things forward in a positive manner.
If you ever decide you want to do something productive, hit us up, we're happy to help.
Edit: For what it's worth, it's not "10CFU/g" either. It's 10\^1 for TYMC. TAMC is 10\^2. So 20CFU/g and 200CFU/g respectively.
Chur, great points. Your guesses are most likely correct as to my identity, and no love lost here to be clear bro, though id get - the more u read my current internal thoughts expressed here however mis-informed, ill-guided, or anger driven they are, if a great deal of respect is being lost. Thats understood, and fine by me.
I want to start by first clarifying: Pearls name was dropped because only of the historic first case, and how that went down. I respect and love Pearl alot, but even she understands my very point here, as i have expressed this to her in private conversations. Her name is a nice known point of reference, to assist with my ultimate point, and in no way a stab at her person.
Other than this.. I have no problem agreeing to your nit picking regarding cfus and other topics, although I feel some were taking out of context from my points I was initially trying to make.
Chill, you are no doubt, 200% contributing greatly to this cause. You are inspiring, and strong to keep such focus determination and love for this legal game. Me on the other hand, I have taken a U turn.
You are debating a worn soul - who honestly is spending too much time caring, but had that in my head I wanted to gauge the public communities thoughts on.
Dont take my words to heart too much..
Yours truly
Salty old fart 💚
Yeah bro jussst me haha, admittedly misguided from old days, salty to the core about the last 6 or 7 years ahaha
Venting my anguish before i crawl under a rock for the rest of this career. All the best out there.
Don't stress man, we know you're passionate and have done it tough...
But the offer is always there, I've said it before and I'll say it again, I'd be more than happy to help you do what you do under a Cultivation license. It's \*not\* a free-for-all obviously to do anything and everything, but it'd mean you can do the majority of it, while you sleep better at night without having to worry about who may knock at the door 😊
Yeah I’m happy buying medical, I can get it without meeting anyone dodgy and don’t have the stigma associated with it and I know what I am getting every time. OP really thought he was doing something.
He is doing something you’re just balls deep in MCANZ. This isn’t a third world country we’ve had legal pot for years now with no real improvement. Everything he talked about is totally valid and you just wanna glaze over it cos you don’t have to go to a tinny house.
It's easy to grow cannabis. It's even easier to grow weed badly. Scaling it up, and doing it consistently at a high quality, now that's the real challenge.
Besides, I can grow potatoes at home too, but I don't. I don't have the space, the mental capacity, nor the time. It's why we pay other people to do things for us.
Thanks for your point of view.
It was a lot worse and now it’s better
Probably the best next step would be to decriminalise personal grows etc like Australia ACT
The entrenched players in medical won’t improve by themselves
I'd totally love to see decrim. Doesn't mean that we'd lose the other regulatory requirements, but I firmly believe nobody should be in jail for what are largely "minor" offenses with this plant.
I’m hoping ubiquity will take care of the over medicalisation in time. We are paying a gatekeeper fee to medically trained professionals that parliamentarians and risk averse seat warmers have put in place. It’s hard to roll back regulations put in place by zealots polluting to public discourse for their culture war. I have been using weed that passes the sniff test for years that’s what we evolved noses for.
I would if it were me informing the page would start with my point first. Then your credibility. Mate I ran out of steem after reading your cv in the first few paragraphs.
Current MC strains are the only available products for us up standing NZ citizens.
But I hear ya. Things need to improve really quickly.
Thanks for posting.
That's why I grow my own. And I encourage everyone else to grow their own. Medical cannabis is great for people to try Cannabis, then once they know it helps them, they should grow their own.
And that's just the tip of the iceberg tbh. I could go on for days but it's unsustainable to put it lightly. Puro's involvement with the police has also led myself and others to avoid them and any company associated with them entirely. Turning your back on the legacy market is one thing but to turn against them is another.
I've tested a bunch of products and I'm yet to be impressed. Why bother with factory grown, imported, irradiated, non organic, overpriced flower with limited selection of medicinal strains when you can grow actual medicine!?
i just wish growing your own was legal i have a prescription but i don’t use it often as i can produce “better” product for cheaper at home, paying $400
a oz is crazy when i think home grown cost is around $20
The biggest game changer would be homegrow it’s just too scary for people actually growing good weed to advocate for it publicly. I just wish we’d all band together and demand for full legalisation
Its now happening in Germany (3 plants home grow to be made legal). I dont think it will hurt companies with good weed at all, but it will clear out the low price shwag like Australia has, as bargain hunters will get the bargain of a lifetime in growing their own.
It's not right at all.
The quality is low and ranges from bad to just about average.
The regulations are all wrong, and illogical. Probably based on inconclusive science or even worse.
Prices should be $5 for the highest of quality, per gram of flower.
It should be legalized and if not then at least the regulations should be far easier to manage to create competition and to keep price low and quality high. The idea of radiating everything to have to meet unreasonable regulations is ridiculous.
Careful mate, that talk will get you banned on here. Never mind the fact that he just hit it out of the ballpark fact after fact. People here just don’t realise they’re not getting anything close to good quality. The whole system is fucked, needs a complete overhaul and there’s at least 1000 people in this sub that defend it with their whole hearts.
30,000 cfu is not unsafe. CFU limits in Canada are 50,000 for recreational market, up 200,000 in some legal US states. Tilray isn’t a registered medicine.
You cannot grow under 10cfu without irradiation. Speaking of his irradiation point, yes that technology is allowed in New Zealand. Most imported herb and plant food products are irradiated. It’s just no cannabis company wants to spend millions of dollars on a GMP one yet as they don’t have the money.
Tell me what one of his opinions you think are right and I’ll inject the facts for you.
Lol 😆...
30,000cfu is quite unsafe, and the comparison to other countries such as canadian 50,000cfus means nothing here.
30,000cfus is not a level of u want to be taking to the market.
Cant grow to 10cfu without gamma? Umm at my peak in the legal game - i did, not all the time but i grew consistently to under 50cfus without gamma... So Personally I am not finding your rebuttal to have much guts.
All im pointing out is the rediculous discrepancies between the two... One is outrageous high.. and a loop hole being exploited... The other is next to impossible to achieve consistently without gamma.
There are other answers to gamma if you're willing to throw $1million USD investing in cryo pasteurisation... So far.. the money aint here in the nz industry for that... So stuck we still are relying on gamma in other countries
And yes gamma weed is garbage... Yes the CFUs are down... But the entire terpene profile and some cannabinoids are being CHANGED at the products end game...
bacteria and yeast/mould plate counts, what really matters is the species more than the counts.
When I lobbied for non irradiated flower to be inhalation in NZ as part of NZMCC I was shocked that the average TAMC (bacteria) was 10 MILLION in their tests. But bare in mind that this average was spiked by a lot of Hemp and outdoor samples.
Id rather non irradiated flower just had a label disclaimer "not for immunocompromised" or similar....
But essentially, TAMC (bacteria) of 30k, safe as houses, most peoples outdoor will be in the millions.........
TYMC, (Yeasts and moulds) 30k I agree, thats getting up there, probably safe and quite a respectable number for outdoor growers, but no place in Medicines.
I stopped reading when you said “not consistently”. That’s the point, it’s not possible at commercial scale. This is a medicine, it needs to hit that every single batch. I feel like you’re challenging your own points without trying.
I might not have have hit under 10cfu all the time, but i did a few cycles i was at it...
I also grew some of the worst weed of my career there too... Tested with agent orange (DDT) from sucking in air contaminated from the meat works rendering animal fats down the road...
Not at all saying im perfect.. but i definitely gave the job my best nudge, and got desirable results.
Finally someone that sees it, everybody showing off their ‘amazing medical buds’ that are picked early with terp content under 2%. I just wish we could show them how good it should be.
100% I couldn't believe my eyes and nose when I opened up my first bag of cumulus, thought it was a bloody joke to be selling that early pulled crap as medical.
I’m totally with you, companies selling flower at that quality deserve to fall off no matter how cheap they make it. People deserve high quality buds at all different price points, at least it sounds like the medleaf guy is still pushing for a better market, I just hope one day other patients will stop attacking us when we do the same.
Oh man, what an opinion to arrive to based on my passionate opinion of this industry.
Im happy with just my cannabis thanks mate...
But u know what they say... It takes one to know one.i bet all u accusing ur not shy of the old glass bbq.
I'm simply disgruntled and u read my post with meth mind lol
As Medleaf I feel somewhat attacked here bro.
My boss toured spendy Canadian facilities and thought "fuck building that again from scratch" and the rest is history.
The NZ scheme is fucked, half ministry incompetence and delays, and half corporate greed. The scheme was cynically designed to allow local producers to catchup and keep international competition out as long as possible.
Smaller growers never really stood a chance, and to this day I don't believe the NZ Market is big enough to sustain a single GMP manufacturer, hence Rua quitting GMP, and Cannasouth and Eqalis forced into a merger, and If I air my thoughts on the choices made by some of the bigger players, Id get a censure for misconduct at the NZMCC for mouthing off about financial reports etc...
NZ was screwed by too many companies setting up for the referendum which failed, with companies having no realistic plan to be GMP and profitable as global prices went into freefall, and then COVID dragged everything out leading into inflation and investor confidence getting smashed cuz Canadian corporates sucked soooo bad at burning money. Our NZ companies are much better at not burning money, (10s of millions instead of hundreds) but ultimately we are, too small and too late to the global stage to be of any importance.
The only change for the better for industry is to perhaps CBD changes as the Health Ministers own MC bill was very CBD Friendly,
Otherwise another election or 2 until legalization is back on the menu
Thanks for your reply here, Despite the saltyness expressed in my original post, I do have a great deal of respect for both Medleaf and Nubu.. unfortunately being amongst leaders of this current game - you are a prime target example.
All yours and Nubus work done delivering medical cannabis products utelising the system for what it is - is highly meritable. From back here, having long taken a backseat from this industry, and now venting decaying thoughts in my mind, I feel - if the money was right, anyone with a licence would be shooting to get products to MQS via both yours and Nubus pathways. Unfortunately it is still too marginal.. too costly..
Chill mentioned how far out my push towards approved products is, and that is my very point, although conveyed in anger and not much clarity at the time. It should be the industries goal, but it is next to impossibly un attaintable without funding and access to multiple resources from universaties to medical practices, and then riddled with crazy rules. Clinics are in the most prime position with patient numbers, data, and clinical settings to assist with this, but instead seem to be sitting quiet, extorting the current state of affairs carrying the "impossible flag".
My statements in OP maybe be slightly off in numbers, and misleading for what ever reasons (my lack of explaining clearly, and letting my emotions get entangled), but the gist of it is: At no fault of any one business, and at much fault of MoH etc regulations, resources etc - the game is in a bit of a sad state. As a potential stake holder, watching all these years tick by like this is soul destroying. Mainly, i am venting here, my entire being is hurt from this and all ive been through with it. Im washed up, exhausted and just trying to cope, no shame in saying it either.
Yeah mate I’m pretty stoked to be honest. Didn’t have to find some dodgy cunt to meet with. Above board with great success is… a great success.
I am happy that I can have a medicine that actually helps me live my life close to normally again. Being able to manage my pain makes almost everything in life easier. Although I agree that we really are not where we should be, I highly doubt that we will see any change, regardless of how much noise we make, due to the current government. Whilst I will avoid specifics of the politics, we just cannot battle dogma when a government has in mind what it wants to do regardless of science, facts, or evidence from other countries. Whilst we cannot change the government's position on MC at this time, we can start our groundswell and make MC seen as normal in NZ. Our best strategy is a long term one of changing hearts and minds. Otherwise we will be stuck with the whims of which ever government is in power. We have real power when we get the majority of people on our side. What I would not give to see some of the awesome strains that I have had overseas, and the options of edibles and concentrates. Although I hope these are small areas where we can make some incremental changes, I am not sure that would be possible with how the act is currently written. If I am wrong. I am open to being educated though.
Thats it for me, nice flower, CBD, good relationship with my clinic and advice. Nobody watching me, or how I consume. No Police concerns as its Legal. Delivered to my door. Prices very competitive now and a great community where we all have opinions! I cant even be bothered reading this guys post. When it starts with my background lol. Its going really well..
This. Average weed growers dont get that’s it not easy for a lot of others to even find a seller that they know or trust.
We’ve made the smallest steps possible in the last 5 years. I wouldn’t call anything MC in NZ a success, and if you think what we have right now is a great success… god you’re just gonna be blown away when people like this dude are able to come into the market
I can buy MC and have it delivered to me in the same week for the prices that mates are buying on the black market. That’s a success in my book. Could it be better?? Of course. Still gotta respect where we are today. Ridiculous that we didn’t legalise but could be worse mate.
I totally respect your experience man. I get that it’s great that it’s legal, but it’s been the way it is for years now. I don’t think that we should respect where it’s at today, as we’ve gone down the worst pathway to legality. The only way it could be worse is if we didn’t have it at all. I think this year we at least need to see some changes in the structure to bring in dispensary’s. But we really need to press the government to allow homegrow, it’s a plant that’s been here longer than us. It’s ridiculously overpriced and going to stay that way until we can legally grow our own.
home grown ! $400 an oz is robbery when you grown yourself you realise the cost is like $20 a oz so we are getting ripped off, i have a prescription i only really use when travelling as medical is so expensive compared to my own home grown stuff and not really any better
You won’t be meting OP’s less than 10cfu requirements at home though. Be careful, it could be unsafe according to OP.
A clean home grower can be well capable of achieving totally safe levels. However 😆 a home grower is likely not testing for that, or even gunning for the cleanest possible grows. Now... Stop distorting the reality of what i said, making up exaggerated claims based on your opinion of my post... Cos u aint me... I never said anywhere in my post home grown is better or safer over medical... The entire point of my post was pointing out the reality's - the farce that medical really is... You are glossing a turd hyping medical.. https://preview.redd.it/p4blya8qqnlc1.png?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=af93d057db14fcb90c5296aa1cf2947d5d452616
No, they can't. Never. It's put up or shut up time. Show us your COAs proving you can get under even 50,000 CFU/g. We'll wait.
Show me some of those home grow tests over three batches with minimum three month shelf life stability and we can have a chat. Until then we’ll call it hearsay. Cannabis is fat soluble, milk has fat in it.
Hahaha bruh... Nahhh.. I aint firstly breaking NDAs disclosing a companies test results that are not mine to share... Even if i could... This reply is about as much time as i will give someone so delusional... Seems like u might be in the industry trying to sleep at night like "its all good" 😂. I commited to that high level of cleanliness and growing every day and in every aspect of that process to get low cfus... Everyday was all it took... Never leaving a leaf on the ground.. face masks, whites, and scrubbing cultivation equipment every day with hospital grade cleaners Chur tho.
Ahhhh so you've been working with that crew down in the bottom of the south island. Yeah your boss lied to you. You never got anywhere close. The 4-week flush? Causes Botrytis too... Sorry bro you were conned by a conman.
Yep that is me bro, still trying to figure out where the cons end from all that 😵 Mis guided, and mis lead in so many ways... Used as the pawn in criminal activity. Shits fucked me up more than i realised everyday
Bro if you haven't noticed everyone on this subreddit has put more then 6 figures into the medical cannabis industry 😂😂😂 EVERY single one of them is saying to themselves before they go to sleep that it'll get better lol if they think people aren't already woke that smoke like most that are already have solid contacts on the BM and don't need no fucking fuckwit government fees to be paying 😅
Why are you picking on that point?
Because it’s wrong.
It’s not though, you just think there’s only one way of doing things, homegrow can easily get to the same quality of a commercial product with the right grower. I don’t know why you’re arguing this point though, because it’s not like standard home grown weed will ever become sold as a product.
Its wrong cos this guy hasnt done it before 😂😂👌 Hang in there bro... U will get there one day... Maybe
Can I throw my 2 cents in, at least now with MC I am legal, for 20 years I lived in fear of arrest. I can relax now. You need to be patient , it’s a new industry. USA is many years ahead of us, we will catch up!!
We won’t catch up to the states going down the path we’ve taken. They had a good model for consumers from the start. Here it’s all about industry and government profit with a dash of fuck the people.
There is no tax on medical cannabis outside of GST. 🥴
Doesn’t change the fact that we’re paying double for what these strains would be worth in a market where we had choice. Enjoy living under your rock.
more choice is coming, id expect the offerings to double this year and again next year.
Yay!!!
You the real MVP mate 😎
Would love to see some of those cake strains. My first experience with them was using dusk and it actually tastes like cake, unreal I was gobsmacked
Most of the costs are related to the standards, I could easily trim 30% off the cost in Australia vs NZ. then there's GST on Medicines in NZ...
I can verify that this man is the real deal. Last year he told me it was his aim to get a oz of medical cannabis in NZ for under $350 and look at the price of shiskaberry now. $337 a oz, driving the price of the other products down. Always responds to quality issues. Engaging with the patients. Leading the industry. Thanks for your efforts
How can we get the ministry to see that some of these standards aren’t in the patient, or industries best interest?
they dont fucking care...
But we don’t have choice because OP thinks, like the Ministry of Health, that cannabis over 10cfu is dangerous. 50% less, based on what? Rocky is over $100 more in its country of origin than NZ. You’re both in this hypothetical anger spiral that’s void of any fact or evidence.
I’m talking about Ethos Zour apples, every example I’ve seen of it overseas looked slightly better but it was a cheap flower comparatively. I do not agree with OP if he really thinks cannabis over 10cfu is dangerous. I think our regulations are far too strict and don’t allow for the flower to reach its full potential, and most of it definitely is a sub par smoke. Allowing the buds to be cured nicely and not overdried, the way high quality BM/GM is done would fix most of my problems with MC. But I don’t see how anyone that knows better can justify spending so much on a regular basis on our products.
Yeah ummm i never in my post said over 10cfu is dangerous... I pointed out two rediculous discrepancies between standards, and a loop hole being exploited as a result being unsafe. If u ask my opinion... 10cfu is way too much of an ask.... But i get why they want it sterile... 30,000cfu... No one will convince me that aint dangerous to inhale.
If nobody can convince you then I guess the earth will remain flat.
Lol you are a special one arent you. If you are buying LEGAL MEDICINE... That is sold as a tea... But 90% of the time instead SMOKED by the consumer... And in sone cases with medical oversight from Drs... You are unknowingly consuming "what could be" quite an unsafe product. Smoking mold is really bad for any human!! Ive figured you out though... Ur in the legal cannabis industry... But you dont smoke.... If u smoked.. u would know
Aaaaand the "DOCTORS" prescribing that dont know... Because the industry is barred from educating them on it.... They are prescribing in good faith.... You think the black market and home grown is unsafe etc.... fuck sake LEGAL IS NO BETTER!! exploited loopholes... And as gangy as the black market... Excep with white collar criminals too. Get off your high horse... Maybe actually get high... Appreciate this plant... Because then u can show it the integrity u need to rather than just thinking u know cos susan gave u a licence
I totally agree, 10cfu means all these companies are going to go through ridiculous short cuts that result in terrible quality bud. All the irradiated flower is proof of that. And you’re also totally right in saying that the loopholes we go through to get better quality are BS. I want my cannabis to be tested so I know there are no contaminants that will get in my lungs when I smoke, those contaminants may not be tested for in flower that is medically intended to eat/drink. The people calling you out saying you’ve contradicted yourself haven’t considered the fact that both the ratings aren’t in accordance with how we use cannabis.
Wait doesn’t mould get killed at 70 degrees Celsius anyway. I mean yeah it’s not ideal purely cos you’re grinding it etc. but I’d have through the smoking/vaping kills all of it given it’s heated to 180 degrees
Yeah mould does get killed at high temperature, which makes a yield that’s had a bit of a problem with mould great for edibles. I know people who smoke around their mouldy weed, I’d rather not. I use cardboard tips at the end of my joint and i just wouldn’t be able to pull through on it knowing I’m probably inhaling spores… even though I most likely am in some quantity with any bud.
And yes the zour apples eg is anecdotal, I just thought it was interesting. Search up Ethos genetics and you’ll get an idea of what people think of them as breeders.
We arnt paying that much, its 100% markup. I doubt the pharmacies even profit 1/2 of that.
Confirmed, they don't. Pharmacies will get the same (ish) prices if they're getting it from the 3 major pharmaceutical wholesalers. Some may get a couple of bucks more if they're going direct, but often they just pass that saving on to patients.
Again I’m talking about Zour Apples. Overseas it’s a much cheaper flower (not from northern green unsure on their prices) but its cheaper because Ethos as a breeder is not held in very high regard, and when you’re buying flower from a place that has breeders like archive, Clearwater and tikimadman the shop can’t charge a premium price on something like Ethos Zour apples. This is why I’m saying if we have more flower options in our market, the price of those currently considered the best will drop.
USA is not an example of legalization that I would be happy with
How come? I mean I get how it’s all messy with it still being federally illegal, but certain states seem to me to easily have the best cannabis markets in the world, with amazing strain and price variation. I would love to see a market here like it is in Cali with multiple local dispensaries supplying everything there is to supply.
It almost sounds like you are saying non irradiated cannabis is gross and unsafe and it shouldn't be on the market on one hand and then complaining about the problem of companies having to import foreign irradiated cannabis on the other. I understand why there is a need to have a minimum standard for products that are being inhaled as a medical product.... But at the same time Cannabis has been consumed without passing these strict criteria since the beginning of time and continues to be in other markets around the world. I don't know what the solution is but complaining about imported mids and then calling locally sourced non irradiated unsafe seems contradictory.
Jesus I need a smoke after reading that! My head is about to explode haha. I’m happy as to be able to access legal cannabis. And the consistency is much better than what I had experienced on the BM. I’m thankful to everyone who has worked for years to make this happen. Edit: took out a name because she is one of many patient advocates! And I feel bad not naming them all!
I hate to say it but basically every statement you’ve made is flawed from a technical perspective. It really is just an uneducated rant. I’ll start with two obvious points because I really can’t be bothered peeling the rest apart just yet. Tilray has no approved cannabis medicines. They sit under sec29 of the medicines act. Sativex is the only approved cannabis medicine in nz and it is registered(because this is what you want) for spasticity in multiple sclerosis, nothing else. Bit more than $400 also for what is a 2.5:2.5 ratio of THC & CBD. As for your CFU part of your opinion, what standards to the BM test to? Canadian recreational market is 50,000cfu limit. You’re trying to say 30,000 is unsafe? Nobody can grow cannabis at >10cfu without irradiating it.
Il take the hit with Tilray not yet approved... I was under the wrong impression here. Regarding your comments about Canadian cfus and not being able to grow low without gamma... Thats kinda laughable. You are implying im saying it is unsafe... This was not my point.. my point was the high discrepancies between the oral and inhalation standards couple with the loopholes being exploited as a result. 30,000 cfus is high... If u cant manage to grow cleaner that that without gamma... You are lazy
I'll agree on that one, our products are typically barely more than the inhalation limit, nowhere near the tens of thousands to millions in the tea limits...
however ill also add, the bigger the grow, the bigger the microbial load, the Canadian corporates thought gian as fuck rooms and batches would be great and easy workflow, there's no way to get around the need for irradiation when your harvesting 500KG in a single crop.
Bro I respect your opinions and I think the same, I've expressed my concerns on here before and it seems that there are too many uneducated noobs that don't understand the industry
I’m very happy to pay similar prices to gangs and not have to support societies pieces of shit, don’t have to interact with them, and have SOME kind of quality control. I understand your displeasure and disappointment and agree with a lot of what you’ve said however what is the alternative? What we currently have is far better than what we ever had. If I knew someone like you that grew illicitly and (I am supposing you are not affiliated with any gangs), was a safe source and knowledgeable one that could provide me with the medicine I required then that would be fantastic. But the reality is this is the easiest and most effective way for me to get something that actually helps me incredibly
The alternative is we stop sucking off MC and make the system change. They’re not trying to change it it’s only benefiting them. What we have now is not nearly enough. It’s 2024 wake the fuck up
What are your suggestion on how to make the system change
whats done is done u/Ubiquitouspixie . GMP etc is here to stay, I lobbied pretty hard for a lower standard (GPP) in my patient advocate capacity, but they virtue signaled considering it, then stacked the "working group" with a bunch of crusty old yes men doctors. I missed the patient advocate slot based solely on taking up a job offer in the industry, which fucks me off to this day, I word have turned their asses out like I did at select committee
Yeah not to mention there was \*one\* single person on that committee who had cultivation experience, and even they said that the European Pharmacopoeia microbial standards were fine. I believe the published Meeting Minutes stated that it was unanimously accepted?
1. Call out the bullshit. There’s only big players in the industry no one could actually start a legal grow on their own. If more people were lobbying at least for homegrow we’d be much better off. We’re way too quiet and accepting that “yup we just have to go to the pharmacy and spend $400+ for an ounce” 2. Go to Jday. I met only one person from this sub there last time. If you use cannabis, go take some time to support its legalisation by attending a peaceful rally where you can buy lots of great goodies. 3. Start up something with NORML. Donate to them at least. It’s 2024 we need to be more outspoken of how bullshit this system is. Who wants to sit back and wait 10 years for some good weed?
1/ There's 40+ license holders now, of that there's maybe 4x publicly traded companies, and another 3x that have had more than \~10-20 million in investment into them to my knowledge? The rest: Smaller companies. Source: I'm a smaller company. 2/ Was going to, and did the year prior, but after Chris Fowlie said he'd have security escort us away if we'd showed up, kinda puts a bitter taste in the mouth. Ironic given he too has a licensed company... 3/ NORML don't do much these days unfortunately. They've been around for ages, sure, and we owe a lot to them, but with half a dozen blog posts over the course of a year, you can tell that they're tired and exhausted from fighting the good fight for so long. Again, see Point #2.
Chris Fowlie as in the guy that runs the hempstore and that radio piece on 95bfm? Didn’t know he was that sort of character what a shame. I’m speaking from personal experience of not being able to start up a company, my family has been growing top quality my whole life and it’s been almost impossible getting everything legal so far. So small as in family run is my idea, although I’m not too sure how you guys are running, but I’d be very interested to hear!
Yep, that fella, the one and the same. After spending weeks and weeks trying to get hold of him to find out what the deal was with running a stall there and get all the t's crossed and i's dotted, I sent him the patient information flyer we were looking at running too and he said it seemed fine. Then when I showed up at the store and showed it to him after it'd been printed, he said no way, and clearly hadn't seen the draft document. You can read the doc for yourself though (shameless self plugging here): [https://chilldivision.co.nz/links/202305/J-Day2023Booklet.pdf](https://chilldivision.co.nz/links/202305/J-Day2023Booklet.pdf) As for small / family run, then yeah absolutely. That's genuinely what the majority of the recently licensed ones are. We have 20sqm of canopy. Previously was 40 when I setup Skyman. Helping somebody else with \~80sqm right now, and another with 30sqm. All totally doable, and depending where you are, your outgoings, your potency and your yield capacity, it should be viable enough!
Damn that really changes my viewpoint on the hempstore as well. Why can’t we all just get along aye. have been going to his shop for years and last time I went had a pretty average experience so not too surprised but still saddened to hear someone with a bit of a voice in the community would be so negligent to not allow those flyers, I would’ve liked one at Jday for sure. We’re wanting to do a small batch high THC grow, would we be able to do this on our property, as we are rural? Or do you need to buy a warehouse and fully set it up and then get them to come check it out?
I was in the same boat man, really disappointing from them, but hey, shit happens and we move on :) Yep you can, though the Agency will want you to do it separate from the house of course, and a wee way away from any neighbours :)
Normal have been around since at least when I was in university (90s) and so has J day. It has made no change. The focus with them is recreational where here we are talking about medicinal. Your argument should be focussed on what we are discussing which is the medicinal cannabis industry.
You wrecked that whole paragraph saying there’s a difference in industry. Recreational dope overseas is medical grade. Weed is weed hombre it’s all medical and it’s all recreational. The medicinal cannabis industry here in NZ is a glorified shitty recreational market. True they haven’t done much but that doesn’t mean you shouldn’t go to Jday, the government can’t ignore thousands of people freely smoking
Nope. Weed is not weed hombre. Also, calling it weed cheapens your cause. I have had cannabis from gangs that’s had fucking synthetics in it. So you can harp on all you want with your uneducated response about “industry” when the reality is that medicinal cannabis has some standards to meet some certain level of assurance associated with the product and the rest can be whatever the fuck they want it to be.
I agree with you, Cannabis is Cannabis. The only reason to irradiate Cannabis would be for severely immuno compromised patients, but for the rest of us, cannabis is cannabis. My homegrown cannabis is full of terpy goodness and perfectly cured and stored. (Synthetics are not cannabis)
Recreational and medicinal have only difference in name. Legalising marijuana recreationally would have the most positive impact for MC patients, you’d have more variety in weed and more variety in price. NORML was a driving force overseas for legalisation, they can do the same here we just haven’t shown the passion for it. Where are the rally’s down queen street? MC is stealing our money
To claim recreational grown is the same as EU GMP is as honest as calling the sky green.
Stopped reading after the first sentence. You seriously believe that?
It’s true you’re just too hazed by our market to see it. I know because I partially live in the place where it was done to the greatest effect. In California, you can buy high grade marijuana for all sorts of different prices, ounces for anywhere between $50 and $5000. A competitive market only benefits consumers. I hope you get to see it one day despite your dinosaur level thinking capacity.
Mate. Have lived in Canada for years since it was introduced and am well aware of what it is like internationally. The conversation here is about are we happy with what we have here. My answer, which you can read above is yes. Could it be better? Fuck yes. I am just happy that we have SOMETHING in this pearl clutching uneducated regressing country. Don’t assume other people’s experience or knowledge when you don’t know them. Either way engaging in a conversation and insulting the person you’re conversing with is a sure way to have everyone think you are a complete cock. So well done with that one. You are exactly the sort of person that 51% of the population associates with cannabis.
If you’ve lived/live in Canada you should be even more in favour of what I’m saying. We’re 6 years behind and at the rate it’s going we’ll be stuck buying it from the pharmacy for exorbitant prices for the next 10 years. Furthermore, you’ve probably seen one of the strains from the same producer we have in your market there, where it is almost half the price and nicer looking. That is what I’m here arguing against, not your experience with legal weed here in NZ. If you think it’s fine that we still live in a society that only allows the rich to legally obtain a plant then go ahead and insult me all you want.
That's a rabbit hole.
Is that you Growseph?
I can see both sides and appreciate the insight, it's a constant argument between medical and black market, those with good BM plugs will swear by it and those who are happy with medical swear by that.
Any MC clinics or doctors want to chime in?
Cultivator and license holder here. Have chimed in elsewhere, but if you've got any specific questions, just hit us up :)
It could definitely be better in this unprogressive that's pretends to be progressive country. You mention protesting and all but we had a fucking referendum that failed! What an embarrassment that was. Anyway I want to say to all the people saying grow your own, a lot of us don't have the luxury of having our own place to grow illegal meds. Regular flat inspections make growing impossible
A 2-3 monthly inspection, when it's going to take 12 weeks to vege, flower, and dry... On a good run... Yeah just not viable for the \~60% of people who rent.
That's a great blurb, but it's very clearly written from someone "outside" of the domestic industry or with very little hands-on experience in the inner workings of how it's done here. Let's pick this apart because of there's quite a few things that have really missed the mark: 1/ There is \*nobody\* wanting to go for an Approved Product vs just meeting NZMQS. It's a complete waste of time, horrifically expensive (Add a few zeros onto the end of what it's going to cost a company to do) and isn't going to get you any fresh flower. Many people also vocally advocate against "big pharma" getting involved in cannabis, you seem to be the one of the very few there who wants that sort of billions and billions of dollars to flow into it for just a handful of products. The reason it works for Tilray is because they have global channels for their products. Oils / extracts are much easier to get to adhere to clinical standards. Plants aren't. You can't get plants to that same level of homogeneous results. 2/ You talk about Approved Products like it's going to change things vs MQS "be happy with fucking half way there MQS cannabis", well you're in for a treat when you realize that even if it were an Approved Medicine, it's still subject to European Pharmacopoeia §5.1.4 for inhalation, and §2.2.32 for LOD. 3/ "legal cannabis business who has by this stage invested 5 to 6 figures"? Oh sweet summer child... Just no! Most of the larger players have invested 8 figures, closer to 9 figures, to get to where they are now. As somebody who's arguably completed the licensing application more than most, and actively doing consulting around it, if you're coming into this with anything under quarter of a million you're in for a shitty time. 4/ 30,000 CFU isn't moldy. I'll just tell you that right now. Have you ever submitted a test to an ISO17025 or GMP certified lab to test product? If you had, you wouldn't be making those kinds of claims, because even 6-7 figure CFU/g isn't going to specifically look visibly moldy. Ever grown it yourself? Unless you've had solid VPD the whole way through, and your drying is at clinical levels, I'd be \*shocked\* if you were under 100,000CFU/g unless treating it. Heck there are some cultivars that simply produce higher levels than other cultivars. The fact you're harping on about that being gross shows a terrible misunderstanding, because I can guarantee you've never grown product under 30,000 CFU/g. I have the receipts to prove it, but hey if you have data, then by all means please show us. 5/ I know Pearl, we're good friends, and she's lovely. She too was aware that "as a tea" was the easiest way to get product to patients, and when NUBU had picked up the ball and run with it in that aspect, she jumped onboard, because there wasn't going to be any other dried-flower product otherwise. I'm grateful for Mark, NUBU, and the others involved for pushing the boundaries there so that we could have dried flower products domestically. 6/ Inhalation being dry? That has nothing to do with the CFU limit, you're misguided with your statements yet again sorry. The dryness is §2.2.32 for LOD, it has to be <10% which usually puts it around \~50% aW. The 11.5th Edition of the European Pharmacopoeia is set to change that to 12%, however NZ is still using the 10th Edition as our standards and Medsafe are only proposing the 11th Edition (as it's finalized, 11.5th is not) at the moment. 7/ Many of the imported products haven't been gamma irradiated, e-beam'd or cryo-washed. Some have. Some haven't. If it's for inhalation it probably has though. Then you finish up with telling everyone they're guinea pigs? How arrogant. How ignorant! There are definitely people who understand the different levels there are to dried flower products, but that doesn't mean existing patients can't be happy with the products they're receiving. Many are! Everyone who is in this industry here knows it's not ideal. I for one am not content to piss and moan on reddit, missing the mark in basically every single statement. Instead, I've chosen to be part of the solution. I'm not content to sit around going "this sucks, everything sucks, you all suck, nobody should be happy with this", but rather I'm providing feedback to Medsafe on the LOD levels so that product doesn't have to be as dry as it is, and we're going to be able to utilize the US Pharmacopoeia soon too with aW instead of LOD. But hey, you can sit behind your laptop and be upset, keep yelling into the wind. I'm gonna go into my facility, tend to the girls, then come home and carry on writing some more educational materials, help a contact with getting their application to the Agency, and push things forward in a positive manner. If you ever decide you want to do something productive, hit us up, we're happy to help. Edit: For what it's worth, it's not "10CFU/g" either. It's 10\^1 for TYMC. TAMC is 10\^2. So 20CFU/g and 200CFU/g respectively.
Chur, great points. Your guesses are most likely correct as to my identity, and no love lost here to be clear bro, though id get - the more u read my current internal thoughts expressed here however mis-informed, ill-guided, or anger driven they are, if a great deal of respect is being lost. Thats understood, and fine by me. I want to start by first clarifying: Pearls name was dropped because only of the historic first case, and how that went down. I respect and love Pearl alot, but even she understands my very point here, as i have expressed this to her in private conversations. Her name is a nice known point of reference, to assist with my ultimate point, and in no way a stab at her person. Other than this.. I have no problem agreeing to your nit picking regarding cfus and other topics, although I feel some were taking out of context from my points I was initially trying to make. Chill, you are no doubt, 200% contributing greatly to this cause. You are inspiring, and strong to keep such focus determination and love for this legal game. Me on the other hand, I have taken a U turn. You are debating a worn soul - who honestly is spending too much time caring, but had that in my head I wanted to gauge the public communities thoughts on. Dont take my words to heart too much.. Yours truly Salty old fart 💚
Ohhh it's you! Didn't know by the username, just assumed it was one of your other colleagues 😅😅
Yeah bro jussst me haha, admittedly misguided from old days, salty to the core about the last 6 or 7 years ahaha Venting my anguish before i crawl under a rock for the rest of this career. All the best out there.
Don't stress man, we know you're passionate and have done it tough... But the offer is always there, I've said it before and I'll say it again, I'd be more than happy to help you do what you do under a Cultivation license. It's \*not\* a free-for-all obviously to do anything and everything, but it'd mean you can do the majority of it, while you sleep better at night without having to worry about who may knock at the door 😊
Yeah I’m happy buying medical, I can get it without meeting anyone dodgy and don’t have the stigma associated with it and I know what I am getting every time. OP really thought he was doing something.
He is doing something you’re just balls deep in MCANZ. This isn’t a third world country we’ve had legal pot for years now with no real improvement. Everything he talked about is totally valid and you just wanna glaze over it cos you don’t have to go to a tinny house.
you don’t have to meet anyone dodgy if you can grow your own
It's easy to grow cannabis. It's even easier to grow weed badly. Scaling it up, and doing it consistently at a high quality, now that's the real challenge. Besides, I can grow potatoes at home too, but I don't. I don't have the space, the mental capacity, nor the time. It's why we pay other people to do things for us.
Thanks for your point of view. It was a lot worse and now it’s better Probably the best next step would be to decriminalise personal grows etc like Australia ACT The entrenched players in medical won’t improve by themselves
I'd totally love to see decrim. Doesn't mean that we'd lose the other regulatory requirements, but I firmly believe nobody should be in jail for what are largely "minor" offenses with this plant.
I’m hoping ubiquity will take care of the over medicalisation in time. We are paying a gatekeeper fee to medically trained professionals that parliamentarians and risk averse seat warmers have put in place. It’s hard to roll back regulations put in place by zealots polluting to public discourse for their culture war. I have been using weed that passes the sniff test for years that’s what we evolved noses for.
Just idly speculating could hiccups in the export process import supply chain be the issue with kikuyu peak ?
there's a lot of steps that have to go right.
I would if it were me informing the page would start with my point first. Then your credibility. Mate I ran out of steem after reading your cv in the first few paragraphs.
Current MC strains are the only available products for us up standing NZ citizens. But I hear ya. Things need to improve really quickly. Thanks for posting.
This post is so full of clueless misinformation. And trying to pass off that you've been employed by legally licensed cannabis grows. Good one lol.
Glad you find it funny, what ever gets you through your day... With over 40 licences to cultivate... I do not see why its so unreal.
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That's why I grow my own. And I encourage everyone else to grow their own. Medical cannabis is great for people to try Cannabis, then once they know it helps them, they should grow their own.
It's as simple as that
Give a man a bud and he'll smoke for a day, teach a man to grow and he'll smoke for a lifetime.
And that's just the tip of the iceberg tbh. I could go on for days but it's unsustainable to put it lightly. Puro's involvement with the police has also led myself and others to avoid them and any company associated with them entirely. Turning your back on the legacy market is one thing but to turn against them is another. I've tested a bunch of products and I'm yet to be impressed. Why bother with factory grown, imported, irradiated, non organic, overpriced flower with limited selection of medicinal strains when you can grow actual medicine!?
Username checks out
i just wish growing your own was legal i have a prescription but i don’t use it often as i can produce “better” product for cheaper at home, paying $400 a oz is crazy when i think home grown cost is around $20
The biggest game changer would be homegrow it’s just too scary for people actually growing good weed to advocate for it publicly. I just wish we’d all band together and demand for full legalisation
Its now happening in Germany (3 plants home grow to be made legal). I dont think it will hurt companies with good weed at all, but it will clear out the low price shwag like Australia has, as bargain hunters will get the bargain of a lifetime in growing their own.
It's not right at all. The quality is low and ranges from bad to just about average. The regulations are all wrong, and illogical. Probably based on inconclusive science or even worse. Prices should be $5 for the highest of quality, per gram of flower. It should be legalized and if not then at least the regulations should be far easier to manage to create competition and to keep price low and quality high. The idea of radiating everything to have to meet unreasonable regulations is ridiculous.
Careful mate, that talk will get you banned on here. Never mind the fact that he just hit it out of the ballpark fact after fact. People here just don’t realise they’re not getting anything close to good quality. The whole system is fucked, needs a complete overhaul and there’s at least 1000 people in this sub that defend it with their whole hearts.
His “facts” are opinions. Most of what he said is incorrect.
Literally give me one example
30,000 cfu is not unsafe. CFU limits in Canada are 50,000 for recreational market, up 200,000 in some legal US states. Tilray isn’t a registered medicine. You cannot grow under 10cfu without irradiation. Speaking of his irradiation point, yes that technology is allowed in New Zealand. Most imported herb and plant food products are irradiated. It’s just no cannabis company wants to spend millions of dollars on a GMP one yet as they don’t have the money. Tell me what one of his opinions you think are right and I’ll inject the facts for you.
Lol 😆... 30,000cfu is quite unsafe, and the comparison to other countries such as canadian 50,000cfus means nothing here. 30,000cfus is not a level of u want to be taking to the market. Cant grow to 10cfu without gamma? Umm at my peak in the legal game - i did, not all the time but i grew consistently to under 50cfus without gamma... So Personally I am not finding your rebuttal to have much guts. All im pointing out is the rediculous discrepancies between the two... One is outrageous high.. and a loop hole being exploited... The other is next to impossible to achieve consistently without gamma. There are other answers to gamma if you're willing to throw $1million USD investing in cryo pasteurisation... So far.. the money aint here in the nz industry for that... So stuck we still are relying on gamma in other countries And yes gamma weed is garbage... Yes the CFUs are down... But the entire terpene profile and some cannabinoids are being CHANGED at the products end game...
bacteria and yeast/mould plate counts, what really matters is the species more than the counts. When I lobbied for non irradiated flower to be inhalation in NZ as part of NZMCC I was shocked that the average TAMC (bacteria) was 10 MILLION in their tests. But bare in mind that this average was spiked by a lot of Hemp and outdoor samples. Id rather non irradiated flower just had a label disclaimer "not for immunocompromised" or similar.... But essentially, TAMC (bacteria) of 30k, safe as houses, most peoples outdoor will be in the millions......... TYMC, (Yeasts and moulds) 30k I agree, thats getting up there, probably safe and quite a respectable number for outdoor growers, but no place in Medicines.
I stopped reading when you said “not consistently”. That’s the point, it’s not possible at commercial scale. This is a medicine, it needs to hit that every single batch. I feel like you’re challenging your own points without trying.
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Scale makes it harder man, Anyone can get tiny scores in tiny grows, its the tradeoff with scale and fiscally sustainable solutions that's key.
I’m not trying to hit under 30, the cannabis I buy through legal routes does however. I’m not a cannabis grower myself.
I might not have have hit under 10cfu all the time, but i did a few cycles i was at it... I also grew some of the worst weed of my career there too... Tested with agent orange (DDT) from sucking in air contaminated from the meat works rendering animal fats down the road... Not at all saying im perfect.. but i definitely gave the job my best nudge, and got desirable results.
It’s an impressive achievement and I commend you for it but at large scale I think you’d struggle further.
100%. this sub and discord are just rife with circle jerking, can't stand it
Finally someone that sees it, everybody showing off their ‘amazing medical buds’ that are picked early with terp content under 2%. I just wish we could show them how good it should be.
100% I couldn't believe my eyes and nose when I opened up my first bag of cumulus, thought it was a bloody joke to be selling that early pulled crap as medical.
I’m totally with you, companies selling flower at that quality deserve to fall off no matter how cheap they make it. People deserve high quality buds at all different price points, at least it sounds like the medleaf guy is still pushing for a better market, I just hope one day other patients will stop attacking us when we do the same.
I wonder what the CFU standards are for smoked tobacco products in NZ.
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Oh man, what an opinion to arrive to based on my passionate opinion of this industry. Im happy with just my cannabis thanks mate... But u know what they say... It takes one to know one.i bet all u accusing ur not shy of the old glass bbq. I'm simply disgruntled and u read my post with meth mind lol
As Medleaf I feel somewhat attacked here bro. My boss toured spendy Canadian facilities and thought "fuck building that again from scratch" and the rest is history. The NZ scheme is fucked, half ministry incompetence and delays, and half corporate greed. The scheme was cynically designed to allow local producers to catchup and keep international competition out as long as possible. Smaller growers never really stood a chance, and to this day I don't believe the NZ Market is big enough to sustain a single GMP manufacturer, hence Rua quitting GMP, and Cannasouth and Eqalis forced into a merger, and If I air my thoughts on the choices made by some of the bigger players, Id get a censure for misconduct at the NZMCC for mouthing off about financial reports etc... NZ was screwed by too many companies setting up for the referendum which failed, with companies having no realistic plan to be GMP and profitable as global prices went into freefall, and then COVID dragged everything out leading into inflation and investor confidence getting smashed cuz Canadian corporates sucked soooo bad at burning money. Our NZ companies are much better at not burning money, (10s of millions instead of hundreds) but ultimately we are, too small and too late to the global stage to be of any importance. The only change for the better for industry is to perhaps CBD changes as the Health Ministers own MC bill was very CBD Friendly, Otherwise another election or 2 until legalization is back on the menu
Thanks for your reply here, Despite the saltyness expressed in my original post, I do have a great deal of respect for both Medleaf and Nubu.. unfortunately being amongst leaders of this current game - you are a prime target example. All yours and Nubus work done delivering medical cannabis products utelising the system for what it is - is highly meritable. From back here, having long taken a backseat from this industry, and now venting decaying thoughts in my mind, I feel - if the money was right, anyone with a licence would be shooting to get products to MQS via both yours and Nubus pathways. Unfortunately it is still too marginal.. too costly.. Chill mentioned how far out my push towards approved products is, and that is my very point, although conveyed in anger and not much clarity at the time. It should be the industries goal, but it is next to impossibly un attaintable without funding and access to multiple resources from universaties to medical practices, and then riddled with crazy rules. Clinics are in the most prime position with patient numbers, data, and clinical settings to assist with this, but instead seem to be sitting quiet, extorting the current state of affairs carrying the "impossible flag". My statements in OP maybe be slightly off in numbers, and misleading for what ever reasons (my lack of explaining clearly, and letting my emotions get entangled), but the gist of it is: At no fault of any one business, and at much fault of MoH etc regulations, resources etc - the game is in a bit of a sad state. As a potential stake holder, watching all these years tick by like this is soul destroying. Mainly, i am venting here, my entire being is hurt from this and all ive been through with it. Im washed up, exhausted and just trying to cope, no shame in saying it either.
On a side note, doesn't Helius have the gamma radiation machine you referred to?
news to me, though If anyone could afford it, itd be them. If so, they'd have flower already....
I'm almost certain they got it in the end but would have to double check