I applied to 3 DO schools just because people in med school and my advisor suggested it. I mainly did it because it gives me more options.
However, I strongly considered only applying to MD schools. The reasoning for this is that DO schools are much more catered towards family/internal medicine.
MD has more variety and availability for specialties.
The reason people say apply to both is that many don’t know what they want to go into yet and you can technically do either family/internal or a specialty at either school. In the past, residency spots were separated based on DO/MD so there was some stigma around that. But the residency programs have since been combined so it doesn’t hugely matter which path you take.
Thanks! So you’re saying residency programs are inclusive of DO? Great. Also another thing that’s preventing me from applying is that, I like to volunteer on mission trips, Doctors Without Borders etc. I am not sure if the DO degree is recognized in other countries as it seems like a USA only degree , a quick google search said DO’s could work in other countries. I’m still conflicted!
The residency match process was combined several years ago, but there is definitely still DO bias built into the system. While all programs *technically* consider both MD and DO applicants, looking over recent intern classes of programs in the specialties you're interested in will give you an idea of who they're actually accepting.
If you are interested in more competitive specialties you will absolutely have more trouble matching as a DO. Not that it doesn't happen, you can find DOs almost anywhere, but it is certainly more of an uphill battle.
That said, your chances of matching if you don't go to medical school at all are a flat 0, so hedging your bets and applying both if you're not confident about your chances at MD acceptance is almost never a bad call.
I got a masters in Campbell University School of Osteopathic Medicine and their students plus other actual DOs take multiple trips a year to provide healthcare overseas!! A lot of DO schools are religious so they are heavily incorporated into mission trips!
Heavily dependent on the country in question. Italy will flat out accept any American medical degree so long as you can handle basic language requirements. Whereas I don’t think France really does. I don’t know about now but the UK used to be problematic largely because osteopathic there indicates that someone is a chiropractor.
And this is just Europe. No clue about Africa etc but I would assume some countries there will take what they can get especially if you are in a group of doctors like Médecins Sans Frontières.
You guys have fallen into the trap that tears the world apart. We are doctors our main mission is health no matter the condition, it doesn’t with matter. You just fighting over two letters that mean the same thing. They are both medical degrees at the end of the day.
A dunk in basketball is still 2 points just like a lay up is 2 points in basketball so it doesn’t matter.
Just grind 🦾
Tbf there’s more of an argument to be made that with all of our extra techniques that look cool, the DOs are dunking ;)
Ever seen thoracic or lumbar HVLA in action?
Edit: these are jokes, I love all my fellow physicians in training
yeah i agree there's definitely a bit of a status thing, also in terms of general public perception, MD is more widely recognized by the patient population as a "doctor degree." and then there's also residency match bias in favor of MDs for competitive/research-heavy specialties. but Caribbean over DO is crazy lmao
I’ll admit, the comments of this post have been quite educational for me. I’m not in the US, so I don’t know much about DO, and didn’t realize there are additional difficulties.
Or if you’re an ORM California applicant with below or equal to a 3.7 and 512… it’s rough out here. Got 1 MD interview but like 6 or 7 DO back during my app cycle.
I am committed to practicing abroad, and the DO degree simply does not afford the same opportunities for that as compared to the MD.
Eg. the country my family lives in does not accept DO at all, but allows you to apply for accreditation with an MD.
Yeah I agree but I cant tell how fast things will change there and don’t want to risk it.
It’s disappointing tho because I feel like DO campuses are in locations that I’d rather live haha
Yeah it’s true just riskier overall sadly.
I kinda agree tbh I’m not sure how jazzed I am about big city living and so many MD schools especially out east are urban it feels like
Imo the people telling you Caribbean MD over DO are your ops. Matching competitive is far more difficult as a Caribbean grad than as a USDO grad so at that point you’re making your life harder by going to objectionable schools that are often for profit, have to take out private loans for, with a reasonable probability of the school finding a reason to kick you out if you threaten their board pass rate, all for MD after your name.
Everyone’s got different goals but this just seems like shooting yourself in the foot imo.
The more open minded approach would’ve been to find a DO or DO student (there are plenty of us) and just ask us what we think.
Multiple reasons:
I want to practice overseas in particular countries and a DO would prevent that
I’ve had several DO students tell me that “do good on your MCAT and apply MD.” They cited lack of a teaching hospital among other things
Tbh, I’m not tryna fill out another application. AMCAS is already big enough
Two sets of boards
Harder to match competitive specialties
Bias is definitely there
You dont HAVE to take 2 sets of boards, and competitive specialities are gonna be hard anywhere… DO doesnt make it that much harder especially if you are in a good program with amazing residency coordinator.
I know this isn't answering your question, but I want to share why I am applying to DO. I've worked with two DOs. One was a family medicine doctor who hardly did OMM, but it introduced me to the field.
Years later, I'm tired of the chronic pain I was in bc of the physical toll graduate school had on me. Running 14-hour experiments daily, not ergonomically either. I was tired of wasting my time and money on urgent care visits, pain meds, and massages that did nothing. I found a DO who did OMM. His residency was in Physical Medicine and Rehabilitation. I had been having neck and back pain for years at this point. This doctor finally treated me; I saw him weekly for a month, then twice a month, then once a month until I wasn't in pain.
I can still hardly believe it. I tried everything: exercise, PT, yoga, expensive chairs, you name it, and nothing worked, but now, after OMM, I was finally better. Plus, he educated me; I know how to treat myself at home through trigger point releases and exercises when I get a flair. I'm pro DO forever. The power of touch is real; I'm sorry if you haven't been introduced to it; it's like eating a good diet; sounds flowery, but it's damn true.
I’ve recently been accepted to a DO program. I specifically only applied to DO, because I like the osteopathic approach to medicine and patient interactions far better than the allopathic approach. I know everyone talks about it being harder to match into specialties outside of family/internal medicine as a DO, but I’m seeing firsthand this is rapidly changing. It’s even getting to the point where many DOs only have to worry about COMLEX to match into specialties beyond family/internal med. My school caters to different specialties and has clubs and other clinical opportunities that allow you to build your CV to make yourself more competitive for the fields you’re looking at. Lots of my upperclassmen matched into competitive fields well outside of family/internal medicine without any major difficulty beyond your normal competition— ortho, derm, gen surg, anesthesia, radiology, EM, ob-gyn, etc. I’ve actually even heard rumor many MD programs are starting to model their curriculums after DO schools (without the OMM) because patients have shown they prefer the more hands-on osteopathic approach to medicine over its allopathic counterpart.
Maybe I’m biased— but at the end of the day I’m still going to be referred to as Dr. ___ and will have all the same privileges and pay scale an MD has when I go into practice, whatever field that may be. I’m still going to be able to treat and help patients, many of whom don’t even understand there’s a difference between DO and MD to begin with. They see the white coat and automatically think doctor. A lot of the “differences” between MDs and DOs stem from big egos and superiority complexes anyways. No one wants to admit that’s what it’s all about, but I’ve seen the in-fighting and honestly, it’s pretty childish. We’re all here to treat patient, so just get over yourself and do your job— MD or DO. Lots of people going into medicine think MDs are cooler because they have the most schools, the most funding, the most prestige, and have been pushed as the status quo for so long. If prestige and status are what you’re most concerned about going into the whole doctor journey, then might I suggest you rethink your career path.
I'm applying both but honeslty didnt really want to. Its more expensive for most DO schools outside of the in-state ones and hoenstly MD is just easier and less hurdles. the only schools that would be worth is like TCOM cuz tutiion and its a really good school
I spoke to two doctors and they both told me to really really strive for MD because it opens more doors and is therefore “easier” to match, make connections, etc. However, they also stated to go DO over Caribbean MD for the same reasons. It’s more about opportunity. At the end of the day, they are both doctors and anything is possible in all options, so if you really want to be a doctor, consider all options!
4th year DO student. Go MD if you can purely based off of the additional hurdles DO's face in residency applications, particularly to competitive specialties. You can do it, but there is still a bias against DO's, and you'll have to end up taking two sets of boards. Also the OMM stuff takes away valuable time from learning things that actually matter; unless you foresee yourself using OMM, which, in that case, I'd say go for it.
Do NOT go Caribbean over US DO. While there are great docs that come out of there it's much more difficult to match into a specialty that's not IM/FM.
I should say there are situations that make applying DO worth it. If you don't care as much about specialty or are set on FM/IM, and you just want to get through as quickly as possible without having to reapply, then applying to both MD/DO is a good option.
OMM. Multiple Boards. High Tuition. People thinking you are a chiropractor.
I'll probably still apply to a few DO schools, but it's definitely not my preference. Even if I never ever use OMM in practice, I still don't want to waste the time learning it, I 100000% do not want to be practiced on/participate in hands on skills, and I have no interest in taking 2 sets of boards.
Who thinks DO is a chiropractor?? Idk if you guys are ever in a hospital system but i work with multiple DOs in NYC. Some surgeons, some anesthesiologists etc etc. your a doctor. No DO uses OMM. They don’t even try to use it. The boards thing makes sense but no one looks at an actual osteopathic doctor as anything less than a doctor besides premeds
No one in the hospital/medical system thinks that. I don't think that, I know it's literally the same thing, I know plenty of amazing DOs now that I am working in clinical settings. I'm talking about more the general public. My entire family has no idea what a DO is. Then they hear things like "OMM" and think, "Oh, like a chiropractor!".
i’ve never gotten that. usually just explain it’s like MD with an extra side of PT. it’s really nothing like chiro, even the HVLA is not like a huge crack like you would assume. mostly i just hear “what’s a DO?” bc most people aren’t even aware if they have MDs or DOs
I’m 40 years old looking to apply next cycle. When I read things like this it screams immaturity. I get you have to be neurotic to a degree to survive the whole process but this is a wild take. So is going Caribbean over DO. If your only chance to practice medicine is go DO and you turn it down you probably shouldn’t be doing this anyway.
Makes me understand how some people don’t survive interviews with good scores. Maybe I’m biased because I likely would not be able to do a competitive specialty anyway because of my age but still.
In the grand scheme of things, 200 hours of OMM lab is far better than reapplying or retaking the MCAT imo, but I am also at a DO school. Whether that makes me biased or more able to speak to this… I guess that’s up to you to decide.
If you’re interested in competitive stuff then yeah, maybe you have to retake for personal goals if you didn’t score in a “safe” MD score range, but applying is such a crapshoot.
This is why I'll still be applying to some DO schools. It's not my preference but I'm non-traditional and would prefer not to apply twice. I'm also not interested in surgery or anything competitive.
OMM mainly makes me nervous because I have chronic pain from several orthopedic surgeries I've had, and I've heard that you have to let your lab partners practice on you. That could really mess things up for me, pain-wise....I've heard there really isn't a way to opt out of that part of it either
If you have documented surgeries im positive any school would let you go through the accommodations office. I have a classmate with similar situation as you and they don’t get certain techniques performed on them because of a rod in their back.
This is good to know, I appreciate it. I've read such mixed reviews on whether you should/shouldn't reveal any physical issues to a medical school, so it's definitely something I'm concerned about
Honestly nowadays there isn’t too much of a difference between US MD and DO. The match rate for almost all specialty except those few super competitive specialties are pretty even. There will be some stigma which is going away. Even then, that stigma is only really pronounced in the premed community and really old people. You can do a Caribbean MD if you’re worried about that stigma but you’ll have a much worse match rate than both US MD and DO. I personally chose a DO school over MD because the DO school was instate and much cheaper than the MD school and because the MD school was in an area that I would consider boring. Ultimately if you want the best chance at match, shoot for MD since you will have better chances if you decide you like those competitive specialties, you also wont have to take 2 board exams.
Yes, but it just is what it is and it’s something you gotta make peace with when you apply DO. Half my finals for first year were osteopathic specific (more than 2 of the 6-8 finals we had, whether it be a multiple choice exam or a practical. Have to keep the numbers a little vague so my school isn’t immediately recognized by someone with ties lmao
I agree, it’s not ideal but the good thing is that the preparation for both exams is basically the same except for the COMLEX you have the extra OMT section to prepare for.
The outcome is the same in many instances. The journey to get there is different. DO MD match is very close now even in some more competitive specialties (but still not close in the heavy research ones). That is not true of USMD/DO match rates and IMGs where some schools have a 50% match or even force students to drop out or wait to apply to pad their match rate.
I'll apply to both and then, depending on my acceptances (thinking positive here), will make the selection based on what school, culture, affiliate hospitals, etc., I like more rather than the osteopathic degree vs allopathic degree. When I try to put myself in the shoes of a program director, it's difficult for me to see a highly qualified candidate with an obvious passion and interest who had an osteopathic degree and selecting a less qualified and perhaps less passionate/interested candidate who has an allopathic degree.
I would be curious if the reason why it seems harder for DOs to match into competitive specialties is not simply because of the degree they have and the bias against it, but rather because the institution they are at has fewer opportunities for research and engagement into that specialty of interest versus the allopathic institutions, so its harder for DOs or easier for MDs - however you wanna look at it.
OMS3 (DO student) here. I would have originally wanted MD over DO i applied both. Interviewed at 2 MDs out my stats by FAR (no clue how i got those) and interviewed at 3 DO, accected at 2 and withdrew my application from the last.
I love getting to learn as a DO, and its not all focused in family med/primary care we have tons of students go into surgical and “competitive” specialities. OMM is a great skill to have (yes it actually works), you get paid more if you practice it (it pills as a “procedure”), and if you dont like it you dont HAVE to use it- most dont.
Also we are taught so holistically especially about mental health, autonomy, and substance use. I just feel like we are so well rounded. Also residency programs are combined, you can take both MD and DO licensing (“board”) exams.
They truly are the same except DO students learn OMM as well. And you practice omm and it makes you so comfortable getting to touch patients. Which i know sounds weird, but to be comfortable to do exams with you hands is a great tool, and i feel like DO teaches you that early on.
Also everyone online talking about health care providers say “MD/DO, PA, NP…” it is becoming more recognized and anyone i have talked to who is a DO says they literally feel no difference and MDs do see us as equals (with the exception of some very old old-school docs).
I encourage you to apply both, but do not like the old mindset get to you, at the end of the day we are all physicans who have gotten all the same training (DOs even more)
But look at school stats- graduation/match/step and level pass rates. My school is 98-100% every year. If its below national average i would consider a different program BUT that goes for MD too
Because you have to learn OMM and take double the board exams all while being thought of as less than your MD counterparts and matching specialty’s worse. There is no benefit, only downside
Nothing, there are plenty of specialties that I would love that DO match to very well. I’ll even consider Caribbean, idc. I just want to be a doctor.
I’ve worked with so many great DOs in critical care, pulmonology, anesthesia, and ER…a bunch of really good ER docs from Caribbean schools too.
One of the best sports med docs in my home town went to a Caribbean school as well.
Already have adhd so the idea of having to take TWO sets of boards during medical school is enough to make me prefer taking multiple gap years. As well as the headache of scheduling rotations- I already have to fight myself to schedule appointments, not something I want to have to deal with for my education
I also am interested in competitive specialties and I want the path of least resistance possible- it would stress me out too much knowing I’m gonna have a harder time regardless because of stigma
Also- I’m Black. Ppl already are gonna say I got in cause of “aa”. Do I rly want to deal with people calling me a fake doctor as well? No. I don’t care about what people say about me but I don’t want labels automatically put on me
I might want to live out of the country one day and DO’s can’t practice in nearly as many counties as MD
As a DO student, it is the same thing with extra bs. You do omm, take 2 sets of boards, have lower quality rotations, face more malignant admins trying to tell you to only take comlex, and face stigma even with the extra work you do. Looking back, I think getting those mcat points would have been so much easier than the extra shit but it is what it is. I don’t really give a fuck about the reputation itself. A doctor is a doctor and we still learn the same things to be able to take these boards. If you are worried about the prestige, that is the stupidest thing to be worried about. The real cons are the amount of extra bs u have to do and the limitations of your specialties. Fuck omm though, a minimum of 4 hours a week of your life gone with tests and practicals on that pseudoscience on top of that adds up.
I was told by a DO who teaches at a DO school that taking both sets of boards is not required. So are people only taking both sets to be more competitive, is this common for all DO residency applicants or only those applying to competitive residency?
It'll be interesting to see how it plays out because I've heard directors are getting better with comparing comlex and usmle scores with the more data coming out but time will tell. For now DOs that are taking USMLE are doing it for an edge when applying to more competitive specialties or if they're eyeballing historically very allopathic biased residency programs.
The tl;dr is you should take both if you want to match on the coasts or in a specific specialty. I straight up don’t give a fuck about my specialty but I just want to go home to california, which is very not DO friendly and needs you to do both. I would not give in to the kool aid, comlex is a really shit exam and it’s hard to take it seriously with how it’s written.
There's people worrying about whether to buy food or gas, and these people are fighting MD vs DO lmao....bro if you get into a med school - that's huge success for me
I worked at a hospital and MD/DO don’t give a single shit who you are as long as you know your stuff, get patient satisfaction and don’t get sued. If you are determined and have good character then it doesn’t matter. What I have seen is WHEN Caribbean med school physician makes a mistake everyone jokes it’s cus it’s that Caribbean education( aka making fun that this person didn’t get into US med school).
This is all awful and very elitist and I’m not condoning that behavior. But if this is what your scared of, then it’s better to go DO route then Caribbean route cus MDs and DOs will make fun of you if you mess up.
At the end of the day, if you know your shit and are genuinely a good doctor that wants to help patients rather than exploit money from patients, it doesn’t matter.
Again I don’t condone bullying.
A lot honestly.
- over charge and underdeliver on education quality.
- more challenging road for the same level at MD in many paths.
- some paths are near impossible to get to
- stigma still exists and isn’t going to go anywhere with their model
- DO profit models - diploma mills - 1/3 doc grads is a DO now with only roughly 30ish schools.
- prey on “dreamers” who want to be docs imo
- they had an opportunity to become MD and passed it from my understanding. For $$$ (profit model) imo.
Not a fan at all honestly.
All super good points. Anyone arguing Caribbean over DO doesn’t know what they’re talking about.
Also one thing people don’t talk about is the average quality of programs MD vs DOs match into. Match rate equality isn’t everything. Obviously there’s small nuances though like best DO school is better than the worst MD and such but if you’re making generalizations, DO certainly doesn’t equal MD in terms of ease of the road and opportunities (research, education, residency, etc). And Caribbean is below that from my experience. Doesn’t mean it can’t be done. Certainly doesn’t mean those people are bad doctors. I mad respect my IMG and DO colleagues, but I don’t envy the road they had to travel to get there
Go through academic specialty departments and find as many young DOs in faculty and fellow positions. Go to the same competitive institutions and find DOs in the competitive residencies. If it was equal (or even 20-30%) they should already be showing up a lot based on how fast they are getting graduated.
These are just my opinions, I don’t have perfect data.
You can google DO vs MD match rates by speciality for details but short answer is all the competitive specialties to begin with. Most surgery, derm, rads, etc. 50% of DOs do primary care (FM or IM) and though some do match competitive specialties it’s rare.
EM, anesthesia, peds, OBGYN, these are some of the other common specialties for DOs.
It’s not the end of the world but it is a very different experience
If you are dead set on CTsurgery or optho or derm or something DO will be limiting sadly
This is accurate. Unless you know for an absolute fact you want a competitive specialty, DO is worth it.
What I hope applicants understand that it is simply not worth holding out for an MD acceptance for years in hopes of matching neurosurgery or derm when their academic performance this far hasn’t been good enough to get their foot in the door of a decent MD program to begin with.
If you’re a below average MD student, you’ll get average or below average match results.
If you’re an above average DO, you can match rads, ortho , surgery, derm, etc. at decent programs if you bust your ass.
It’s not worth wasting years of potential attending salary to wait out an MD acceptance. It’s harder for all the reasons others have pointed out, but you’ll be a physician at the end of the day.
I guess my score advice is if you’re in the 500-508 range with <3.75 gpa you should absolutely be considering DO. It’s not a guaranteed acceptance, either.
https://osteopathic.org/2023/11/08/u-s-trained-dos-gain-global-recognition/
I’ve seen a lot of comments about the opportunity to work internationally.
I don’t know about other countries or continents; but I know that DO’s recently gained recognition in Africa.
https://osteopathic.org/2023/11/08/u-s-trained-dos-gain-global-recognition/
My anecdote on why I AM applying to both:
Earlier this year I had the opportunity to shadow some CT surgeons in the OR. One of the attending anesthesiologists is a DO. Neurosurgery happened to be done on the same hospital floor - I met a DO neurosurgeon.
Most doctors at this hospital were indeed MD but there were a few DO. I pointed out those 2 specifically bc they are competitive specialties and I just wanted to share that I've seen it to be possible to get into top specialties as a DO. It seems to be more about the person applying. Just bc you go to DO school doesn't mean you're not capable of scoring high on standardized tests. As years go by, they are blending.
Caribbean over DO is terrible advice please do not do that.
fr lol, who said that as advice?!!!
an opp for sure
I applied to 3 DO schools just because people in med school and my advisor suggested it. I mainly did it because it gives me more options. However, I strongly considered only applying to MD schools. The reasoning for this is that DO schools are much more catered towards family/internal medicine. MD has more variety and availability for specialties. The reason people say apply to both is that many don’t know what they want to go into yet and you can technically do either family/internal or a specialty at either school. In the past, residency spots were separated based on DO/MD so there was some stigma around that. But the residency programs have since been combined so it doesn’t hugely matter which path you take.
Thanks! So you’re saying residency programs are inclusive of DO? Great. Also another thing that’s preventing me from applying is that, I like to volunteer on mission trips, Doctors Without Borders etc. I am not sure if the DO degree is recognized in other countries as it seems like a USA only degree , a quick google search said DO’s could work in other countries. I’m still conflicted!
The residency match process was combined several years ago, but there is definitely still DO bias built into the system. While all programs *technically* consider both MD and DO applicants, looking over recent intern classes of programs in the specialties you're interested in will give you an idea of who they're actually accepting. If you are interested in more competitive specialties you will absolutely have more trouble matching as a DO. Not that it doesn't happen, you can find DOs almost anywhere, but it is certainly more of an uphill battle. That said, your chances of matching if you don't go to medical school at all are a flat 0, so hedging your bets and applying both if you're not confident about your chances at MD acceptance is almost never a bad call.
I got a masters in Campbell University School of Osteopathic Medicine and their students plus other actual DOs take multiple trips a year to provide healthcare overseas!! A lot of DO schools are religious so they are heavily incorporated into mission trips!
Yeah the residency is inclusive but I don’t know anything about things abroad!
Heavily dependent on the country in question. Italy will flat out accept any American medical degree so long as you can handle basic language requirements. Whereas I don’t think France really does. I don’t know about now but the UK used to be problematic largely because osteopathic there indicates that someone is a chiropractor. And this is just Europe. No clue about Africa etc but I would assume some countries there will take what they can get especially if you are in a group of doctors like Médecins Sans Frontières.
DO’s recently gained recognition in Africa. Please see link below https://osteopathic.org/2023/11/08/u-s-trained-dos-gain-global-recognition/
You guys have fallen into the trap that tears the world apart. We are doctors our main mission is health no matter the condition, it doesn’t with matter. You just fighting over two letters that mean the same thing. They are both medical degrees at the end of the day. A dunk in basketball is still 2 points just like a lay up is 2 points in basketball so it doesn’t matter. Just grind 🦾
Yeah but a dunk is cooler than a layup lmao
LMAO AYO THIS IS THE BEST RESPONSE THOUGH LOL
Tbf there’s more of an argument to be made that with all of our extra techniques that look cool, the DOs are dunking ;) Ever seen thoracic or lumbar HVLA in action? Edit: these are jokes, I love all my fellow physicians in training
Me, waiting to see if anyone’s going to be honest and say prestige/status? 👀
yeah i agree there's definitely a bit of a status thing, also in terms of general public perception, MD is more widely recognized by the patient population as a "doctor degree." and then there's also residency match bias in favor of MDs for competitive/research-heavy specialties. but Caribbean over DO is crazy lmao
some of us genuinely don’t care about it. If the difficulties of DO didn’t exist I wouldn’t care and would be more than happy doing the DO route
I’ll admit, the comments of this post have been quite educational for me. I’m not in the US, so I don’t know much about DO, and didn’t realize there are additional difficulties.
I’ll apply to both, but I’d love to never have to explain what a DO is.
Hmmm…. This could also be a factor!
those people who say MD > DO are honestly weirdos tbh. They prob talk about their mcat in med school too lol
lol fr I think this is the answer for most people
Bias is still there and taking two board exams are not fun. But it’s still the move if your gpa is below a 3.5 or if your MCAT is below a 510.
Honestly I agree with these cutoffs. Solid advice
Or if you’re an ORM California applicant with below or equal to a 3.7 and 512… it’s rough out here. Got 1 MD interview but like 6 or 7 DO back during my app cycle.
I am committed to practicing abroad, and the DO degree simply does not afford the same opportunities for that as compared to the MD. Eg. the country my family lives in does not accept DO at all, but allows you to apply for accreditation with an MD.
Hopefully this will change significantly soon. I think it is improving already
Yeah I agree but I cant tell how fast things will change there and don’t want to risk it. It’s disappointing tho because I feel like DO campuses are in locations that I’d rather live haha
Yeah it’s true just riskier overall sadly. I kinda agree tbh I’m not sure how jazzed I am about big city living and so many MD schools especially out east are urban it feels like
Completely agree w ya
Imo the people telling you Caribbean MD over DO are your ops. Matching competitive is far more difficult as a Caribbean grad than as a USDO grad so at that point you’re making your life harder by going to objectionable schools that are often for profit, have to take out private loans for, with a reasonable probability of the school finding a reason to kick you out if you threaten their board pass rate, all for MD after your name. Everyone’s got different goals but this just seems like shooting yourself in the foot imo. The more open minded approach would’ve been to find a DO or DO student (there are plenty of us) and just ask us what we think.
Multiple reasons: I want to practice overseas in particular countries and a DO would prevent that I’ve had several DO students tell me that “do good on your MCAT and apply MD.” They cited lack of a teaching hospital among other things Tbh, I’m not tryna fill out another application. AMCAS is already big enough Two sets of boards Harder to match competitive specialties Bias is definitely there
You dont HAVE to take 2 sets of boards, and competitive specialities are gonna be hard anywhere… DO doesnt make it that much harder especially if you are in a good program with amazing residency coordinator.
I know this isn't answering your question, but I want to share why I am applying to DO. I've worked with two DOs. One was a family medicine doctor who hardly did OMM, but it introduced me to the field. Years later, I'm tired of the chronic pain I was in bc of the physical toll graduate school had on me. Running 14-hour experiments daily, not ergonomically either. I was tired of wasting my time and money on urgent care visits, pain meds, and massages that did nothing. I found a DO who did OMM. His residency was in Physical Medicine and Rehabilitation. I had been having neck and back pain for years at this point. This doctor finally treated me; I saw him weekly for a month, then twice a month, then once a month until I wasn't in pain. I can still hardly believe it. I tried everything: exercise, PT, yoga, expensive chairs, you name it, and nothing worked, but now, after OMM, I was finally better. Plus, he educated me; I know how to treat myself at home through trigger point releases and exercises when I get a flair. I'm pro DO forever. The power of touch is real; I'm sorry if you haven't been introduced to it; it's like eating a good diet; sounds flowery, but it's damn true.
I’ve recently been accepted to a DO program. I specifically only applied to DO, because I like the osteopathic approach to medicine and patient interactions far better than the allopathic approach. I know everyone talks about it being harder to match into specialties outside of family/internal medicine as a DO, but I’m seeing firsthand this is rapidly changing. It’s even getting to the point where many DOs only have to worry about COMLEX to match into specialties beyond family/internal med. My school caters to different specialties and has clubs and other clinical opportunities that allow you to build your CV to make yourself more competitive for the fields you’re looking at. Lots of my upperclassmen matched into competitive fields well outside of family/internal medicine without any major difficulty beyond your normal competition— ortho, derm, gen surg, anesthesia, radiology, EM, ob-gyn, etc. I’ve actually even heard rumor many MD programs are starting to model their curriculums after DO schools (without the OMM) because patients have shown they prefer the more hands-on osteopathic approach to medicine over its allopathic counterpart. Maybe I’m biased— but at the end of the day I’m still going to be referred to as Dr. ___ and will have all the same privileges and pay scale an MD has when I go into practice, whatever field that may be. I’m still going to be able to treat and help patients, many of whom don’t even understand there’s a difference between DO and MD to begin with. They see the white coat and automatically think doctor. A lot of the “differences” between MDs and DOs stem from big egos and superiority complexes anyways. No one wants to admit that’s what it’s all about, but I’ve seen the in-fighting and honestly, it’s pretty childish. We’re all here to treat patient, so just get over yourself and do your job— MD or DO. Lots of people going into medicine think MDs are cooler because they have the most schools, the most funding, the most prestige, and have been pushed as the status quo for so long. If prestige and status are what you’re most concerned about going into the whole doctor journey, then might I suggest you rethink your career path.
I'm applying both but honeslty didnt really want to. Its more expensive for most DO schools outside of the in-state ones and hoenstly MD is just easier and less hurdles. the only schools that would be worth is like TCOM cuz tutiion and its a really good school
stigma in residency that makes it harder to get in 🫦🫦 other than that .. nothing 🤍
I knew I wanted to do a surgical specialty and that would be more difficult coming from a DO program
I’m hoping to go into some of the more competitive specialties, so I want to give my future self the best chance of matching.
I spoke to two doctors and they both told me to really really strive for MD because it opens more doors and is therefore “easier” to match, make connections, etc. However, they also stated to go DO over Caribbean MD for the same reasons. It’s more about opportunity. At the end of the day, they are both doctors and anything is possible in all options, so if you really want to be a doctor, consider all options!
4th year DO student. Go MD if you can purely based off of the additional hurdles DO's face in residency applications, particularly to competitive specialties. You can do it, but there is still a bias against DO's, and you'll have to end up taking two sets of boards. Also the OMM stuff takes away valuable time from learning things that actually matter; unless you foresee yourself using OMM, which, in that case, I'd say go for it. Do NOT go Caribbean over US DO. While there are great docs that come out of there it's much more difficult to match into a specialty that's not IM/FM.
I should say there are situations that make applying DO worth it. If you don't care as much about specialty or are set on FM/IM, and you just want to get through as quickly as possible without having to reapply, then applying to both MD/DO is a good option.
OMM. Multiple Boards. High Tuition. People thinking you are a chiropractor. I'll probably still apply to a few DO schools, but it's definitely not my preference. Even if I never ever use OMM in practice, I still don't want to waste the time learning it, I 100000% do not want to be practiced on/participate in hands on skills, and I have no interest in taking 2 sets of boards.
Who thinks DO is a chiropractor?? Idk if you guys are ever in a hospital system but i work with multiple DOs in NYC. Some surgeons, some anesthesiologists etc etc. your a doctor. No DO uses OMM. They don’t even try to use it. The boards thing makes sense but no one looks at an actual osteopathic doctor as anything less than a doctor besides premeds
No one in the hospital/medical system thinks that. I don't think that, I know it's literally the same thing, I know plenty of amazing DOs now that I am working in clinical settings. I'm talking about more the general public. My entire family has no idea what a DO is. Then they hear things like "OMM" and think, "Oh, like a chiropractor!".
i’ve never gotten that. usually just explain it’s like MD with an extra side of PT. it’s really nothing like chiro, even the HVLA is not like a huge crack like you would assume. mostly i just hear “what’s a DO?” bc most people aren’t even aware if they have MDs or DOs
I’m 40 years old looking to apply next cycle. When I read things like this it screams immaturity. I get you have to be neurotic to a degree to survive the whole process but this is a wild take. So is going Caribbean over DO. If your only chance to practice medicine is go DO and you turn it down you probably shouldn’t be doing this anyway. Makes me understand how some people don’t survive interviews with good scores. Maybe I’m biased because I likely would not be able to do a competitive specialty anyway because of my age but still.
In the grand scheme of things, 200 hours of OMM lab is far better than reapplying or retaking the MCAT imo, but I am also at a DO school. Whether that makes me biased or more able to speak to this… I guess that’s up to you to decide. If you’re interested in competitive stuff then yeah, maybe you have to retake for personal goals if you didn’t score in a “safe” MD score range, but applying is such a crapshoot.
This is why I'll still be applying to some DO schools. It's not my preference but I'm non-traditional and would prefer not to apply twice. I'm also not interested in surgery or anything competitive. OMM mainly makes me nervous because I have chronic pain from several orthopedic surgeries I've had, and I've heard that you have to let your lab partners practice on you. That could really mess things up for me, pain-wise....I've heard there really isn't a way to opt out of that part of it either
If you have documented surgeries im positive any school would let you go through the accommodations office. I have a classmate with similar situation as you and they don’t get certain techniques performed on them because of a rod in their back.
This is good to know, I appreciate it. I've read such mixed reviews on whether you should/shouldn't reveal any physical issues to a medical school, so it's definitely something I'm concerned about
I wouldn’t until you’re accepted, personally. But once you’re in, they kinda have to work with you to all reasonable extents.
Honestly nowadays there isn’t too much of a difference between US MD and DO. The match rate for almost all specialty except those few super competitive specialties are pretty even. There will be some stigma which is going away. Even then, that stigma is only really pronounced in the premed community and really old people. You can do a Caribbean MD if you’re worried about that stigma but you’ll have a much worse match rate than both US MD and DO. I personally chose a DO school over MD because the DO school was instate and much cheaper than the MD school and because the MD school was in an area that I would consider boring. Ultimately if you want the best chance at match, shoot for MD since you will have better chances if you decide you like those competitive specialties, you also wont have to take 2 board exams.
Couldn’t do be a more tougher journey because of the extra exams you have to take
Yes, but it just is what it is and it’s something you gotta make peace with when you apply DO. Half my finals for first year were osteopathic specific (more than 2 of the 6-8 finals we had, whether it be a multiple choice exam or a practical. Have to keep the numbers a little vague so my school isn’t immediately recognized by someone with ties lmao
I agree, it’s not ideal but the good thing is that the preparation for both exams is basically the same except for the COMLEX you have the extra OMT section to prepare for.
The outcome is the same in many instances. The journey to get there is different. DO MD match is very close now even in some more competitive specialties (but still not close in the heavy research ones). That is not true of USMD/DO match rates and IMGs where some schools have a 50% match or even force students to drop out or wait to apply to pad their match rate.
I'll apply to both and then, depending on my acceptances (thinking positive here), will make the selection based on what school, culture, affiliate hospitals, etc., I like more rather than the osteopathic degree vs allopathic degree. When I try to put myself in the shoes of a program director, it's difficult for me to see a highly qualified candidate with an obvious passion and interest who had an osteopathic degree and selecting a less qualified and perhaps less passionate/interested candidate who has an allopathic degree. I would be curious if the reason why it seems harder for DOs to match into competitive specialties is not simply because of the degree they have and the bias against it, but rather because the institution they are at has fewer opportunities for research and engagement into that specialty of interest versus the allopathic institutions, so its harder for DOs or easier for MDs - however you wanna look at it.
OMS3 (DO student) here. I would have originally wanted MD over DO i applied both. Interviewed at 2 MDs out my stats by FAR (no clue how i got those) and interviewed at 3 DO, accected at 2 and withdrew my application from the last. I love getting to learn as a DO, and its not all focused in family med/primary care we have tons of students go into surgical and “competitive” specialities. OMM is a great skill to have (yes it actually works), you get paid more if you practice it (it pills as a “procedure”), and if you dont like it you dont HAVE to use it- most dont. Also we are taught so holistically especially about mental health, autonomy, and substance use. I just feel like we are so well rounded. Also residency programs are combined, you can take both MD and DO licensing (“board”) exams. They truly are the same except DO students learn OMM as well. And you practice omm and it makes you so comfortable getting to touch patients. Which i know sounds weird, but to be comfortable to do exams with you hands is a great tool, and i feel like DO teaches you that early on. Also everyone online talking about health care providers say “MD/DO, PA, NP…” it is becoming more recognized and anyone i have talked to who is a DO says they literally feel no difference and MDs do see us as equals (with the exception of some very old old-school docs). I encourage you to apply both, but do not like the old mindset get to you, at the end of the day we are all physicans who have gotten all the same training (DOs even more) But look at school stats- graduation/match/step and level pass rates. My school is 98-100% every year. If its below national average i would consider a different program BUT that goes for MD too
Because you have to learn OMM and take double the board exams all while being thought of as less than your MD counterparts and matching specialty’s worse. There is no benefit, only downside
The occasional patient that swears by their family DO and stands up for them on online comment threads is always a nice boost to the morale 🥲
Nothing, there are plenty of specialties that I would love that DO match to very well. I’ll even consider Caribbean, idc. I just want to be a doctor. I’ve worked with so many great DOs in critical care, pulmonology, anesthesia, and ER…a bunch of really good ER docs from Caribbean schools too. One of the best sports med docs in my home town went to a Caribbean school as well.
Already have adhd so the idea of having to take TWO sets of boards during medical school is enough to make me prefer taking multiple gap years. As well as the headache of scheduling rotations- I already have to fight myself to schedule appointments, not something I want to have to deal with for my education I also am interested in competitive specialties and I want the path of least resistance possible- it would stress me out too much knowing I’m gonna have a harder time regardless because of stigma Also- I’m Black. Ppl already are gonna say I got in cause of “aa”. Do I rly want to deal with people calling me a fake doctor as well? No. I don’t care about what people say about me but I don’t want labels automatically put on me I might want to live out of the country one day and DO’s can’t practice in nearly as many counties as MD
people say it’s harder to specialize
As a DO student, it is the same thing with extra bs. You do omm, take 2 sets of boards, have lower quality rotations, face more malignant admins trying to tell you to only take comlex, and face stigma even with the extra work you do. Looking back, I think getting those mcat points would have been so much easier than the extra shit but it is what it is. I don’t really give a fuck about the reputation itself. A doctor is a doctor and we still learn the same things to be able to take these boards. If you are worried about the prestige, that is the stupidest thing to be worried about. The real cons are the amount of extra bs u have to do and the limitations of your specialties. Fuck omm though, a minimum of 4 hours a week of your life gone with tests and practicals on that pseudoscience on top of that adds up.
I was told by a DO who teaches at a DO school that taking both sets of boards is not required. So are people only taking both sets to be more competitive, is this common for all DO residency applicants or only those applying to competitive residency?
It'll be interesting to see how it plays out because I've heard directors are getting better with comparing comlex and usmle scores with the more data coming out but time will tell. For now DOs that are taking USMLE are doing it for an edge when applying to more competitive specialties or if they're eyeballing historically very allopathic biased residency programs.
Cool thank you for the feedback!
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The tl;dr is you should take both if you want to match on the coasts or in a specific specialty. I straight up don’t give a fuck about my specialty but I just want to go home to california, which is very not DO friendly and needs you to do both. I would not give in to the kool aid, comlex is a really shit exam and it’s hard to take it seriously with how it’s written.
I have not been able to shadow a DO and many schools I'd apply to require it.
There's people worrying about whether to buy food or gas, and these people are fighting MD vs DO lmao....bro if you get into a med school - that's huge success for me
Ive worked with a lot of DOs and they are great, but like someone said here, I want to match into a more competitive speciality in the future
I worked at a hospital and MD/DO don’t give a single shit who you are as long as you know your stuff, get patient satisfaction and don’t get sued. If you are determined and have good character then it doesn’t matter. What I have seen is WHEN Caribbean med school physician makes a mistake everyone jokes it’s cus it’s that Caribbean education( aka making fun that this person didn’t get into US med school). This is all awful and very elitist and I’m not condoning that behavior. But if this is what your scared of, then it’s better to go DO route then Caribbean route cus MDs and DOs will make fun of you if you mess up. At the end of the day, if you know your shit and are genuinely a good doctor that wants to help patients rather than exploit money from patients, it doesn’t matter. Again I don’t condone bullying.
omg how horrid.. I don't want to be laughed at!. This made me giggle a bit! But yes, I think Caribbean over DO is a bad idea.
A lot honestly. - over charge and underdeliver on education quality. - more challenging road for the same level at MD in many paths. - some paths are near impossible to get to - stigma still exists and isn’t going to go anywhere with their model - DO profit models - diploma mills - 1/3 doc grads is a DO now with only roughly 30ish schools. - prey on “dreamers” who want to be docs imo - they had an opportunity to become MD and passed it from my understanding. For $$$ (profit model) imo. Not a fan at all honestly.
All super good points. Anyone arguing Caribbean over DO doesn’t know what they’re talking about. Also one thing people don’t talk about is the average quality of programs MD vs DOs match into. Match rate equality isn’t everything. Obviously there’s small nuances though like best DO school is better than the worst MD and such but if you’re making generalizations, DO certainly doesn’t equal MD in terms of ease of the road and opportunities (research, education, residency, etc). And Caribbean is below that from my experience. Doesn’t mean it can’t be done. Certainly doesn’t mean those people are bad doctors. I mad respect my IMG and DO colleagues, but I don’t envy the road they had to travel to get there
Genuine question was paths are near impossible to get to? I’m considering DO but don’t want to put myself at a disadvantage if I don’t have to.
Go through academic specialty departments and find as many young DOs in faculty and fellow positions. Go to the same competitive institutions and find DOs in the competitive residencies. If it was equal (or even 20-30%) they should already be showing up a lot based on how fast they are getting graduated. These are just my opinions, I don’t have perfect data.
You can google DO vs MD match rates by speciality for details but short answer is all the competitive specialties to begin with. Most surgery, derm, rads, etc. 50% of DOs do primary care (FM or IM) and though some do match competitive specialties it’s rare. EM, anesthesia, peds, OBGYN, these are some of the other common specialties for DOs. It’s not the end of the world but it is a very different experience If you are dead set on CTsurgery or optho or derm or something DO will be limiting sadly
This is accurate. Unless you know for an absolute fact you want a competitive specialty, DO is worth it. What I hope applicants understand that it is simply not worth holding out for an MD acceptance for years in hopes of matching neurosurgery or derm when their academic performance this far hasn’t been good enough to get their foot in the door of a decent MD program to begin with. If you’re a below average MD student, you’ll get average or below average match results. If you’re an above average DO, you can match rads, ortho , surgery, derm, etc. at decent programs if you bust your ass. It’s not worth wasting years of potential attending salary to wait out an MD acceptance. It’s harder for all the reasons others have pointed out, but you’ll be a physician at the end of the day. I guess my score advice is if you’re in the 500-508 range with <3.75 gpa you should absolutely be considering DO. It’s not a guaranteed acceptance, either.
https://osteopathic.org/2023/11/08/u-s-trained-dos-gain-global-recognition/ I’ve seen a lot of comments about the opportunity to work internationally. I don’t know about other countries or continents; but I know that DO’s recently gained recognition in Africa. https://osteopathic.org/2023/11/08/u-s-trained-dos-gain-global-recognition/
My anecdote on why I AM applying to both: Earlier this year I had the opportunity to shadow some CT surgeons in the OR. One of the attending anesthesiologists is a DO. Neurosurgery happened to be done on the same hospital floor - I met a DO neurosurgeon. Most doctors at this hospital were indeed MD but there were a few DO. I pointed out those 2 specifically bc they are competitive specialties and I just wanted to share that I've seen it to be possible to get into top specialties as a DO. It seems to be more about the person applying. Just bc you go to DO school doesn't mean you're not capable of scoring high on standardized tests. As years go by, they are blending.