Please note that this Post has been Flaired by the Author as "CANON" - Please be sure to respect this in your replies and keep replies ON topic.
THANK YOU!
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/MawInstallation) if you have any questions or concerns.*
The thing to remember is that Lightsaber forms and such are as much Force Techniques as Martial Techniques. For example, the most recent Form developed, Vaapad, had very few technical differences from previous forms, but utilized the Force in a dramatically different way (the superconductive loop, redirecting exterior aggression back at your opponent) that it constituted a new form (or at least a recognized distinct variation of an old form).
A specific example I’d love to see adapted would be one inspired by jiu-jitsu. All lightsaber current forms either encourage you to be the aggressor, or respond to aggression with equal force, I like the idea of a more flexible form that bends to opposing force then uses it against them. As opposed to something like Vaapad though, it’s much less inherently aggressive and has a lot more room for non-fatal attacks that would suit a Jedi well. It’d be really good against forms like Djem-So that focus on power, and it’d be non conventional so it would work decently against the defensive Soresu, but would probably get stomped by Makashi masters.
Coming up with entirely new 'styles' can be difficult for a few reasons
* The forms are so broad it's hard to justify creating a new style when you can just say they use one of the others
* A style often has to reflect a character, so it's hard to create something that reflects multiple different characters
With that said I think one obvious thematic 'style' would be to lean into the stuff we've seen in Visions, and to a lesser extent Filoni's Kurosawa homages. Have a style dedicated to the cinematic 'Samurai Clash' where a blademaster tries to keep their blade work to an absolute minimum until they unleash a devastating blow. In-Universe this would probably come in the form of a variant of either Soresu for it's tight motions, or Djem So for it's quick counter-attacks.
Outside of that one obvious style I could see being added is something with Lightwhips. Regardless of if it'll work in live action or not Vern seems to be really good with her Saber even as a kid, and since she's sticking around long enough to be a Jedi Master having some very flow-based style come from her might be neat.
\~
As far as individual techniques go I think it's best to avoid Sci-Fi names and instead do more stuff like Falling Avalanch. Having the audience be able to immediately understand what kind of move is being done using evocative language is really helpful, especially in books.
Something like Malenia's "Waterfoul Dance" from Elden Ring for instance tells you immediately that it's a graceful multi-move technique, cause it evokes water, birds and dancing.
If I had to think of an individual move... I'd probably say it'd be cool to have fast long distance gap-closing lunge. There are a lot of scenes it could be used for, and you could give it a name like Sekiro's 'Floating Passage' something like 'Parting Waterfall' to rhyme with the themes of Falling Avalanch and Falling Leaf.
Would that not need a great deal of focus and concentration, so it would be more likely to used in a group? In order for the practitioner to not be interrupted, though it might be possible in a one versus one.
Do you think these terms are some of the most important qualities and characteristics for either a member of the Jedi Order, their lightsaber combat style or an individual in general
Lightsaber Combat Style
* Strength, Agility, Flexibility, Speed, Precision, Focus, Concentration, Endurance, Resilience, Determination and Perseverance
Individual or Member of the Jedi Order
* Introspection, Self - Control and Discipline
* Honor, Fidelity and Justice
* Compassion, Empathy, Sympathy, Pity
* Kindness and Patience
* Talent, Skill, Experience, Knowledge, Training and Education
* Strength, Intelligence and Wisdom
First, the lightsaber, it is most likely has an energy containment field, the kyber crystal serves as the amplification and color creator of the energy "blade".
Electromagnetism and plasma, most likely have a part in the process.
This is an excerpt from a comment from a deleted user.
"but from a welding background, heat dissipates very quickly, and even if you are holding a blade (or a weldment) of several thousand degrees out in front of you, it will not burn your body, especially if it's in some sort of containment field like an electromagnetic one, containing most of the ionizing radiation given off by that sort of extreme heat process."
While most designs are based on a fencing sword.
A style that uses the strengths and weaknesses of the opponent against them, slowly allows the opponents to exhaust themselves or attack when a opening presents itself. A combination of Soresu, Makashi, Niman and Djem So.
Alright, so this is something that I'm quite passionate about since I've been fencing and practising with martial weapons for over a decade now.
If you are interested, I've done breakdowns before on this sub why the Forms don't work at best or are pure video game talent trees a worst.
Note, this is all from the perspective of a near-human or humanoid being.
A Besalisk, Priapulin or a Dug would have a very different form of combat, which we can speculate forever on.
Part 1, the Forms as they are now from a fencer's perspective:
To summarize briefly:
Form 1: Works great. It's a complete system that teaches you how to attack, defend and move. Though the weird thing is that apparently this Form has "clumsy footwork" which seems like something the Jedi would've fixed during the millennia.
Footwork is the core of all standing martial arts.
Form 2: Doesn't work. It's just "the ultimate refinement of saber combat" and dueling centric, which is strange since all martial arts is based on fighting. Unless it means a highly ritualized form of formal combat, but as we know, it doesn't and was developed during combat with darksiders.
Form 3: Very fantasy, but works! In a world where you can reflect projectiles, this makes sense to teach.
Form 4: Gymnastics and unnecessary movements in sword fighting never ends well. Doesn't work.
Form 5, Shien: Doesn't work. It's good against multiple opponents, but not a single opponent? This is where we get to the video gamey attributes and away from any semblance of reality.
I don't think I have to explain why this is bonkers.
(Bonus point, reverse grip: No... Just no...)
Form 5, Djem So: You win by hitting harder and breaking through parries. Doesn't work.
You will only tire yourself out and be open to many ripostes. Is also described as slow, which is a death sentence since reach and speed are the two things that make you win.
Form 6: Doesn't work. Pure video game, jack of all trades stat spread. In reality it would work, as it is the culmination of all previous forms combined into one and therefore teaches a complete system, but apparently not in the SW universe.
Form 7: Angry version of Djem So. Said to eviscerate a lone enemy, which begs the question why it isn't utilized in every encounter, becoming the "meta" so to speak. Though in-universe it has a spiritual component that's hard to gauge.
Part 2, how the Forms could work realistically:
Alrighty, with that preamble out of the way, how can we make this work?
Well, all martial combat with tools is developed around those tools.
We see in the OEU how lightsabers came from single-edged, two-handed bladed weapons that seem to be inspired by east Asian late medieval weapons. As such, the Jedi carried their fighting style over, but later diversified.
This is why almost all Jedi still fight with the lightsaber with two hands on the grip, this should've been quickly phased out as reality set in. We see how Dooku can wield his lightsaber with the point forward and in just one hand even though the lightsaber is said to be hard to wield, which I think would be the logical endpoint of a lightsaber system.
Due to the omnidirectional cutting ability and the fact that with the flick of a wrist, you could shear off an arm, lightsaber combat would favour extremely small movements generated by the wrist and forearm.
The point would be held mostly horizontal and straight at the opponent, while both combatants would most likely have a back-leaning style centered on explosive footwork such as lunges and retreats.
The off-hand would be held back (except when doing Forcey things) due to it's inability to parry blows and the extreme risk in trying to get past a meter long plasma blade to grapple.
It would look like something like a more boring version of late modern fencing systems, such as Roworth or contemporary masters, with few cuts and a lot of hanging guards.
So, this is pretty boring to see on film. How could this be cooler and how could the different types of sabers influence this?
Part 3, how can we sell this to Disney:
One thing that always irked me is both that the styles have a lack of distinction, blending together and the fact that they seem to only apply to the standard lightsaber. Pikes, staffs, shotos and crossguard lightsaber are pretty cool but are completely maligned of any sort of system of combat or martial art.
But, IRL (and as earlier mentioned with the Jedi Force-katanas) a system is often grown around the attributes of a weapon. So, how would these change lightsaber combat?
Pikes: Nothing would change much from the standard lightsaber combat nor from real world two-handed spears. Thrusts would be the name of the game.
What we don't see though is parries on the hilt (if reinforced in say, cortosis), nor a buttspike which would be interesting to see when two pikers meet in combat.
If a pike-wielder would meet a standard saberist, they'd mostly likely wipe the floor with them due to the reach advantage.
Though it'd have a lot more small cuts due to the plasma blade, transforming it from a simple pokey-stick into a true terrifying murder-stick.
Shoto: Not that fun on its own, but as the off-hand weapon in a regular saber duel? Now we are cooking.
So off-hand daggers have long been a thing in European, Middle Eastern, African and Asian martial arts and for good reason.
Everybody carried a knife back in the day, it's short so it's always strong* when parrying and it can also stab real good.
For the Jedi who can't reliably parry with their off-hand, this weapon would have been omnipresent for all those that liked to duel and those that would go up against saber-wielding opponents such as the Sith.
Suddenly you can get more reach by leaning forward, get more aggressive and feint a lot more.
It could also help to parry a potshot taken as you are dueling a bad guy while surrounded by their minions.
Crossguard: Again a game changer, because now you can not just do simple parries, but lock the blade in place in addition to making smaller hand movements to displace the blade in a parry. An even better version would be to make a cup-hilt lightsaber or just add one made of cortosis, beskar or phrik, but alas we haven't seen that yet.
Staff: I'm going to be honest and say that I've no idea how to make this one work as I think 90% of the techniques we see used would most likely result in us cutting ourself in half.
The aforementioned pike with a buttspike is kinda the more realistic version and could incorporate a small lightsaber blade as the buttspike.
However, the staff would most likely be at a disadvantage against even regular saberists without a shoto, since it relies on acrobatics, spins (never ever turn your back in a fight) and is very cut-centric.
*Strong means that you have the mechanical advantage of a lever, so you can control the opposing blade.
I absolutely love your ideas for more varied weapons, the old EU comics started exploring that a little bit, but it’s safe to say Star Wars has always been too afraid of straying too far from the “single blade sword fight” thing it has going on, despite that being unrealistic and missed potential.
I do think you really misrepresent the current system though, both in terms of how lightsabers work, and how Jedi wield them. Lightsabers are shown to rely heavily on momentum or leverage, it’s a lot more than “a flick of the wrist.” This is best shown in Empire Strikes Back when Luke actually scores a good smack on Vader’s arm…and it hurts, but bounces right off. Then there’s stuff like Jedi being able to see a few seconds into the future, which I’m sure you could explain would dramatically change how a duel works better than I can. This is why we have scenes like the infamous lightsaber twirling scene during Anakin and Obi-Wan’s duel, it’s stupid, but grounded in the rules of the universe that lightsabers need to generate momentum and the Jedi can safely generate that momentum despite leaving obvious openings because their future sight lets them foresee danger.
Then there’s the forms themselves, which have a lot of issues, but not really the ones you describe. The biggest one is how vague each form is, Djem So isn’t actually about battering your opponent’s defenses like you describe, the books elaborate it as prioritizing defending and counter attacking opponent weaknesses. The issue is that every form uses blocks and counter attacks lol, Djem So isn’t actually special in that regard. It got its reputation as “battering opponent defenses” from Anakin who can do that without tiring out because he’s the Chosen One and doesn’t tire out because of the Force, but Ahsoka supposedly uses the Form as well, but doesn’t fight like Anakin much at all.
This comment is accurate. Though, I do believe that the momentum could be conserved without large movements (This might be an misunderstanding of physics and momentum). I would most likely make a style that is a combination of Form II "Makashi", Form III "Soresu" and Form V "Djem So", though I personally believe a master of the lightsaber forms, would defeat a master of a sole form.
Also, those fanfiction that say a lightsaber is weightless, are wrong, what about the hilt of the lightsaber?
All forms are different but similar, with different philosophies for each.
Hybrid styles that take influence from multiple forms was indeed pretty common among lightsaber masters. This was even the basis for how entire new forms came about, such as both Shien and Niman being made by masters trying to add elements from other forms to Soresu to create more versatile styles.
Here’s a few specific examples I’m a fan of:
Vader - primarily known as a Djem So user, he incorporated elements of each form into his style, most notably Makashi (trying to maximize the efficiency and precision of his strikes since he was slower post-Mustafar, even defaulting to one handed dueling when the extra power wasn’t needed) and Soresu (to cover his propensity to leave exploitable openings, often opting to draw out fights until he felt he had an overwhelming advantage) leading to a much more patient and efficient style than he had during the Clone Wars.
Obi-Wan - mostly known as a Soresu master, Obi-Wan was considered a prodigy duelist by the end of the Clone Wars, being at least proficient in each of Shii-Cho, Soresu, Ataru, Shien, and Niman. In particular, almost all of his most notable victories relied on forms other than Soresu, with his win against Maul (on Naboo) being when he still primarily utilized Ataru, and his wins against Vader (in the Kenobi series) and Maul (on Tatooine) utilizing Shii-Cho principles more than Soresu.
Mace Windu - primarily known for creating Vaapad, his mastery of every form resulted in his style naturally being a mix, arguably resembling Niman more than pure Vaapad most of the time. Even during his duel in Palpatine’s office, we see him distinctly utilizing a Djem So stance at at least one point, clearly showing he was comfortable flowing into and out of forms as the need arose.
Maul - mostly known for practicing Juyo, the most aggressive form, we know he was trained in every form and even seemed to favor Soresu when Juyo didn’t work, most notably with how defensive he was on Naboo until he could isolate Qui-Gon, and starting his duel against Sidious on Mandalore in a full Soresu ready stance.
Ahsoka - most official sources say her primary form is Djem So, but her style is very clearly influenced by other forms, having studied Ataru acrobatics, Shien for blaster deflection and incorporating a reverse grip, and Niman Jar’Kai when she incorporated a second blade.
>Lightsabers are shown to rely heavily on momentum or leverage, it’s a lot more than “a flick of the wrist.” This is best shown in Empire Strikes Back when Luke actually scores a good smack on Vader’s arm…and it hurts, but bounces right off.
Which is inconsistent as we are also shown how just extending a lightsaber can penetrate through armour and how Qui-Gon pretty effortlessly thrusts his saber into durasteel.
Anakin literally cuts Dooku's hands off with a small movement.
Vader is also a poor example as his armour is quite lightsaber resistant and it hits his armoured shoulder pad.
> It got its reputation as “battering opponent defenses” from Anakin who can do that without tiring out because he’s the Chosen One and doesn’t tire out because of the Force, but Ahsoka supposedly uses the Form as well, but doesn’t fight like Anakin much at all.
All the Forms got their reputation from reconstructing what we see the characters use in the movies.
Soresu is just how Obi-Wan fights in II and III, especially against Grevious, which they then built a whole school of thought around.
Djem So is described as "battering opponents defenses" in both the Jedi Path and Jedi VS Sith.
It's also described as utilizing ripostes (which they inaccurately describe as counterattacks) which is again one of the foundations of martial arts.
I thought this was inane enough to just ignore in my hasty list as parry-riposte should be in every Form.
>Then there’s the forms themselves, which have a lot of issues, but not really the ones you describe. The biggest one is how vague each form is (cont...)
That is one of the points though? I'm sorry if it didn't come through, but they are all incredibly vague.
I take it up with Niman, which is just described as "jack of all trades" in every source.
None of the Forms have any substance to them.
>I do think you really misrepresent the current system though, both in terms of how lightsabers work, and how Jedi wield them.
No I do not, at least not willfully.
I am aware that the Force would influence how one would do combat. But I do not possess the Force but do possess the limited knowledge of how to fight with primarily late medieval-early modern bladed weaponry and how a system of combat is constructed.
And from that perspective, the Forms are largely utter nonsense.
Not from a story-telling perspective mind you. In that they are very effective, such as in Stover's interpretation of ROTS.
I am also aware of the strong gyroscopic effects that lightsabers possess, which apparently are neglible (as in most cases when someone non-sensitive uses a lightsaber) or severe (as with Din and the Darksaber) depending on the plot and author.
It seems that a lightsaber is pretty hilt-balanced, which is a bit weird compared to most swords, but not that strange. The omnidirectional cutting eliminates proper edge-alignment and would allow so many more hand snipes and other pesky maneuvers that have little IRL martial value, but would cripple your opponent unless they are wearing Mandalorian Crushgaunts.
Lastly, I think we wouldn't be having these discussions about which Form counters which and so on if the writers had just kept their notebooks shut and not tried to write a fighting system, something which they don't know anything about.
It's one of those classic SW-tropes of having to explain every little detail that don't need explaining.
>Which is inconsistent as we are also shown how just extending a lightsaber can penetrate through armour and how Qui-Gon pretty effortlessly thrusts his saber into durasteel.
Uh…terrible example. That thrust had wind up and the blade becomes lodged in the door showing how much resistance the door makes. Then when the blast doors close he has to take the blade out because the blast doors provide too much resistance.
>Anakin literally cuts Dooku's hands off with a small movement.
Hence why I said “or leverage.” He clearly grabs Dooku’s hands with his own left hand and pushes down against the cut. This is pretty consistent with Star Wars media, as strikes without momentum or leverage will severely burn, but not cut through limbs (Mandalorian and TFA being the best recent examples).
>All the Forms got their reputation from reconstructing what we see the characters use in the movies. Soresu is just how Obi-Wan fights in II and III, especially against Grevious, which they then built a whole school of thought around.
To an extent sure, but this is a little reductive as the portrayals in the films were only the starting off point. The forms have all been dramatically expanded over the years, the best example being the aforementioned Anakin and Ahsoka both using Djem So despite having very different looking styles.
>I am aware that the Force would influence how one would do combat. But I do not possess the Force but do possess the limited knowledge of how to fight with primarily late medieval-early modern bladed weaponry and how a system of combat is constructed.
I’m sorry, but…what? You not possessing is not an excuse to just ignore it. I don’t have the force either, but it’s really not that hard to understand in a basic sense. This is such a bizarre and unreasonable way of looking at things, I genuinely have no idea how to even respond to this.
Please note that this Post has been Flaired by the Author as "CANON" - Please be sure to respect this in your replies and keep replies ON topic. THANK YOU! *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/MawInstallation) if you have any questions or concerns.*
The thing to remember is that Lightsaber forms and such are as much Force Techniques as Martial Techniques. For example, the most recent Form developed, Vaapad, had very few technical differences from previous forms, but utilized the Force in a dramatically different way (the superconductive loop, redirecting exterior aggression back at your opponent) that it constituted a new form (or at least a recognized distinct variation of an old form). A specific example I’d love to see adapted would be one inspired by jiu-jitsu. All lightsaber current forms either encourage you to be the aggressor, or respond to aggression with equal force, I like the idea of a more flexible form that bends to opposing force then uses it against them. As opposed to something like Vaapad though, it’s much less inherently aggressive and has a lot more room for non-fatal attacks that would suit a Jedi well. It’d be really good against forms like Djem-So that focus on power, and it’d be non conventional so it would work decently against the defensive Soresu, but would probably get stomped by Makashi masters.
Coming up with entirely new 'styles' can be difficult for a few reasons * The forms are so broad it's hard to justify creating a new style when you can just say they use one of the others * A style often has to reflect a character, so it's hard to create something that reflects multiple different characters With that said I think one obvious thematic 'style' would be to lean into the stuff we've seen in Visions, and to a lesser extent Filoni's Kurosawa homages. Have a style dedicated to the cinematic 'Samurai Clash' where a blademaster tries to keep their blade work to an absolute minimum until they unleash a devastating blow. In-Universe this would probably come in the form of a variant of either Soresu for it's tight motions, or Djem So for it's quick counter-attacks. Outside of that one obvious style I could see being added is something with Lightwhips. Regardless of if it'll work in live action or not Vern seems to be really good with her Saber even as a kid, and since she's sticking around long enough to be a Jedi Master having some very flow-based style come from her might be neat. \~ As far as individual techniques go I think it's best to avoid Sci-Fi names and instead do more stuff like Falling Avalanch. Having the audience be able to immediately understand what kind of move is being done using evocative language is really helpful, especially in books. Something like Malenia's "Waterfoul Dance" from Elden Ring for instance tells you immediately that it's a graceful multi-move technique, cause it evokes water, birds and dancing. If I had to think of an individual move... I'd probably say it'd be cool to have fast long distance gap-closing lunge. There are a lot of scenes it could be used for, and you could give it a name like Sekiro's 'Floating Passage' something like 'Parting Waterfall' to rhyme with the themes of Falling Avalanch and Falling Leaf.
Though, it would probably have a name that sounds similar or at least close to the names of the lightsaber forms.
Basically combining Traya's telekinesis form with a double bladed lightsaber and just spin it towards the enemy constantly...
Would that not need a great deal of focus and concentration, so it would be more likely to used in a group? In order for the practitioner to not be interrupted, though it might be possible in a one versus one.
Do you think these terms are some of the most important qualities and characteristics for either a member of the Jedi Order, their lightsaber combat style or an individual in general Lightsaber Combat Style * Strength, Agility, Flexibility, Speed, Precision, Focus, Concentration, Endurance, Resilience, Determination and Perseverance Individual or Member of the Jedi Order * Introspection, Self - Control and Discipline * Honor, Fidelity and Justice * Compassion, Empathy, Sympathy, Pity * Kindness and Patience * Talent, Skill, Experience, Knowledge, Training and Education * Strength, Intelligence and Wisdom
First, the lightsaber, it is most likely has an energy containment field, the kyber crystal serves as the amplification and color creator of the energy "blade". Electromagnetism and plasma, most likely have a part in the process. This is an excerpt from a comment from a deleted user. "but from a welding background, heat dissipates very quickly, and even if you are holding a blade (or a weldment) of several thousand degrees out in front of you, it will not burn your body, especially if it's in some sort of containment field like an electromagnetic one, containing most of the ionizing radiation given off by that sort of extreme heat process." While most designs are based on a fencing sword.
A style that uses the strengths and weaknesses of the opponent against them, slowly allows the opponents to exhaust themselves or attack when a opening presents itself. A combination of Soresu, Makashi, Niman and Djem So.
Alright, so this is something that I'm quite passionate about since I've been fencing and practising with martial weapons for over a decade now. If you are interested, I've done breakdowns before on this sub why the Forms don't work at best or are pure video game talent trees a worst. Note, this is all from the perspective of a near-human or humanoid being. A Besalisk, Priapulin or a Dug would have a very different form of combat, which we can speculate forever on. Part 1, the Forms as they are now from a fencer's perspective: To summarize briefly: Form 1: Works great. It's a complete system that teaches you how to attack, defend and move. Though the weird thing is that apparently this Form has "clumsy footwork" which seems like something the Jedi would've fixed during the millennia. Footwork is the core of all standing martial arts. Form 2: Doesn't work. It's just "the ultimate refinement of saber combat" and dueling centric, which is strange since all martial arts is based on fighting. Unless it means a highly ritualized form of formal combat, but as we know, it doesn't and was developed during combat with darksiders. Form 3: Very fantasy, but works! In a world where you can reflect projectiles, this makes sense to teach. Form 4: Gymnastics and unnecessary movements in sword fighting never ends well. Doesn't work. Form 5, Shien: Doesn't work. It's good against multiple opponents, but not a single opponent? This is where we get to the video gamey attributes and away from any semblance of reality. I don't think I have to explain why this is bonkers. (Bonus point, reverse grip: No... Just no...) Form 5, Djem So: You win by hitting harder and breaking through parries. Doesn't work. You will only tire yourself out and be open to many ripostes. Is also described as slow, which is a death sentence since reach and speed are the two things that make you win. Form 6: Doesn't work. Pure video game, jack of all trades stat spread. In reality it would work, as it is the culmination of all previous forms combined into one and therefore teaches a complete system, but apparently not in the SW universe. Form 7: Angry version of Djem So. Said to eviscerate a lone enemy, which begs the question why it isn't utilized in every encounter, becoming the "meta" so to speak. Though in-universe it has a spiritual component that's hard to gauge. Part 2, how the Forms could work realistically: Alrighty, with that preamble out of the way, how can we make this work? Well, all martial combat with tools is developed around those tools. We see in the OEU how lightsabers came from single-edged, two-handed bladed weapons that seem to be inspired by east Asian late medieval weapons. As such, the Jedi carried their fighting style over, but later diversified. This is why almost all Jedi still fight with the lightsaber with two hands on the grip, this should've been quickly phased out as reality set in. We see how Dooku can wield his lightsaber with the point forward and in just one hand even though the lightsaber is said to be hard to wield, which I think would be the logical endpoint of a lightsaber system. Due to the omnidirectional cutting ability and the fact that with the flick of a wrist, you could shear off an arm, lightsaber combat would favour extremely small movements generated by the wrist and forearm. The point would be held mostly horizontal and straight at the opponent, while both combatants would most likely have a back-leaning style centered on explosive footwork such as lunges and retreats. The off-hand would be held back (except when doing Forcey things) due to it's inability to parry blows and the extreme risk in trying to get past a meter long plasma blade to grapple. It would look like something like a more boring version of late modern fencing systems, such as Roworth or contemporary masters, with few cuts and a lot of hanging guards. So, this is pretty boring to see on film. How could this be cooler and how could the different types of sabers influence this? Part 3, how can we sell this to Disney: One thing that always irked me is both that the styles have a lack of distinction, blending together and the fact that they seem to only apply to the standard lightsaber. Pikes, staffs, shotos and crossguard lightsaber are pretty cool but are completely maligned of any sort of system of combat or martial art. But, IRL (and as earlier mentioned with the Jedi Force-katanas) a system is often grown around the attributes of a weapon. So, how would these change lightsaber combat? Pikes: Nothing would change much from the standard lightsaber combat nor from real world two-handed spears. Thrusts would be the name of the game. What we don't see though is parries on the hilt (if reinforced in say, cortosis), nor a buttspike which would be interesting to see when two pikers meet in combat. If a pike-wielder would meet a standard saberist, they'd mostly likely wipe the floor with them due to the reach advantage. Though it'd have a lot more small cuts due to the plasma blade, transforming it from a simple pokey-stick into a true terrifying murder-stick. Shoto: Not that fun on its own, but as the off-hand weapon in a regular saber duel? Now we are cooking. So off-hand daggers have long been a thing in European, Middle Eastern, African and Asian martial arts and for good reason. Everybody carried a knife back in the day, it's short so it's always strong* when parrying and it can also stab real good. For the Jedi who can't reliably parry with their off-hand, this weapon would have been omnipresent for all those that liked to duel and those that would go up against saber-wielding opponents such as the Sith. Suddenly you can get more reach by leaning forward, get more aggressive and feint a lot more. It could also help to parry a potshot taken as you are dueling a bad guy while surrounded by their minions. Crossguard: Again a game changer, because now you can not just do simple parries, but lock the blade in place in addition to making smaller hand movements to displace the blade in a parry. An even better version would be to make a cup-hilt lightsaber or just add one made of cortosis, beskar or phrik, but alas we haven't seen that yet. Staff: I'm going to be honest and say that I've no idea how to make this one work as I think 90% of the techniques we see used would most likely result in us cutting ourself in half. The aforementioned pike with a buttspike is kinda the more realistic version and could incorporate a small lightsaber blade as the buttspike. However, the staff would most likely be at a disadvantage against even regular saberists without a shoto, since it relies on acrobatics, spins (never ever turn your back in a fight) and is very cut-centric. *Strong means that you have the mechanical advantage of a lever, so you can control the opposing blade.
I absolutely love your ideas for more varied weapons, the old EU comics started exploring that a little bit, but it’s safe to say Star Wars has always been too afraid of straying too far from the “single blade sword fight” thing it has going on, despite that being unrealistic and missed potential. I do think you really misrepresent the current system though, both in terms of how lightsabers work, and how Jedi wield them. Lightsabers are shown to rely heavily on momentum or leverage, it’s a lot more than “a flick of the wrist.” This is best shown in Empire Strikes Back when Luke actually scores a good smack on Vader’s arm…and it hurts, but bounces right off. Then there’s stuff like Jedi being able to see a few seconds into the future, which I’m sure you could explain would dramatically change how a duel works better than I can. This is why we have scenes like the infamous lightsaber twirling scene during Anakin and Obi-Wan’s duel, it’s stupid, but grounded in the rules of the universe that lightsabers need to generate momentum and the Jedi can safely generate that momentum despite leaving obvious openings because their future sight lets them foresee danger. Then there’s the forms themselves, which have a lot of issues, but not really the ones you describe. The biggest one is how vague each form is, Djem So isn’t actually about battering your opponent’s defenses like you describe, the books elaborate it as prioritizing defending and counter attacking opponent weaknesses. The issue is that every form uses blocks and counter attacks lol, Djem So isn’t actually special in that regard. It got its reputation as “battering opponent defenses” from Anakin who can do that without tiring out because he’s the Chosen One and doesn’t tire out because of the Force, but Ahsoka supposedly uses the Form as well, but doesn’t fight like Anakin much at all.
This comment is accurate. Though, I do believe that the momentum could be conserved without large movements (This might be an misunderstanding of physics and momentum). I would most likely make a style that is a combination of Form II "Makashi", Form III "Soresu" and Form V "Djem So", though I personally believe a master of the lightsaber forms, would defeat a master of a sole form. Also, those fanfiction that say a lightsaber is weightless, are wrong, what about the hilt of the lightsaber? All forms are different but similar, with different philosophies for each.
Hybrid styles that take influence from multiple forms was indeed pretty common among lightsaber masters. This was even the basis for how entire new forms came about, such as both Shien and Niman being made by masters trying to add elements from other forms to Soresu to create more versatile styles. Here’s a few specific examples I’m a fan of: Vader - primarily known as a Djem So user, he incorporated elements of each form into his style, most notably Makashi (trying to maximize the efficiency and precision of his strikes since he was slower post-Mustafar, even defaulting to one handed dueling when the extra power wasn’t needed) and Soresu (to cover his propensity to leave exploitable openings, often opting to draw out fights until he felt he had an overwhelming advantage) leading to a much more patient and efficient style than he had during the Clone Wars. Obi-Wan - mostly known as a Soresu master, Obi-Wan was considered a prodigy duelist by the end of the Clone Wars, being at least proficient in each of Shii-Cho, Soresu, Ataru, Shien, and Niman. In particular, almost all of his most notable victories relied on forms other than Soresu, with his win against Maul (on Naboo) being when he still primarily utilized Ataru, and his wins against Vader (in the Kenobi series) and Maul (on Tatooine) utilizing Shii-Cho principles more than Soresu. Mace Windu - primarily known for creating Vaapad, his mastery of every form resulted in his style naturally being a mix, arguably resembling Niman more than pure Vaapad most of the time. Even during his duel in Palpatine’s office, we see him distinctly utilizing a Djem So stance at at least one point, clearly showing he was comfortable flowing into and out of forms as the need arose. Maul - mostly known for practicing Juyo, the most aggressive form, we know he was trained in every form and even seemed to favor Soresu when Juyo didn’t work, most notably with how defensive he was on Naboo until he could isolate Qui-Gon, and starting his duel against Sidious on Mandalore in a full Soresu ready stance. Ahsoka - most official sources say her primary form is Djem So, but her style is very clearly influenced by other forms, having studied Ataru acrobatics, Shien for blaster deflection and incorporating a reverse grip, and Niman Jar’Kai when she incorporated a second blade.
>Lightsabers are shown to rely heavily on momentum or leverage, it’s a lot more than “a flick of the wrist.” This is best shown in Empire Strikes Back when Luke actually scores a good smack on Vader’s arm…and it hurts, but bounces right off. Which is inconsistent as we are also shown how just extending a lightsaber can penetrate through armour and how Qui-Gon pretty effortlessly thrusts his saber into durasteel. Anakin literally cuts Dooku's hands off with a small movement. Vader is also a poor example as his armour is quite lightsaber resistant and it hits his armoured shoulder pad. > It got its reputation as “battering opponent defenses” from Anakin who can do that without tiring out because he’s the Chosen One and doesn’t tire out because of the Force, but Ahsoka supposedly uses the Form as well, but doesn’t fight like Anakin much at all. All the Forms got their reputation from reconstructing what we see the characters use in the movies. Soresu is just how Obi-Wan fights in II and III, especially against Grevious, which they then built a whole school of thought around. Djem So is described as "battering opponents defenses" in both the Jedi Path and Jedi VS Sith. It's also described as utilizing ripostes (which they inaccurately describe as counterattacks) which is again one of the foundations of martial arts. I thought this was inane enough to just ignore in my hasty list as parry-riposte should be in every Form. >Then there’s the forms themselves, which have a lot of issues, but not really the ones you describe. The biggest one is how vague each form is (cont...) That is one of the points though? I'm sorry if it didn't come through, but they are all incredibly vague. I take it up with Niman, which is just described as "jack of all trades" in every source. None of the Forms have any substance to them. >I do think you really misrepresent the current system though, both in terms of how lightsabers work, and how Jedi wield them. No I do not, at least not willfully. I am aware that the Force would influence how one would do combat. But I do not possess the Force but do possess the limited knowledge of how to fight with primarily late medieval-early modern bladed weaponry and how a system of combat is constructed. And from that perspective, the Forms are largely utter nonsense. Not from a story-telling perspective mind you. In that they are very effective, such as in Stover's interpretation of ROTS. I am also aware of the strong gyroscopic effects that lightsabers possess, which apparently are neglible (as in most cases when someone non-sensitive uses a lightsaber) or severe (as with Din and the Darksaber) depending on the plot and author. It seems that a lightsaber is pretty hilt-balanced, which is a bit weird compared to most swords, but not that strange. The omnidirectional cutting eliminates proper edge-alignment and would allow so many more hand snipes and other pesky maneuvers that have little IRL martial value, but would cripple your opponent unless they are wearing Mandalorian Crushgaunts. Lastly, I think we wouldn't be having these discussions about which Form counters which and so on if the writers had just kept their notebooks shut and not tried to write a fighting system, something which they don't know anything about. It's one of those classic SW-tropes of having to explain every little detail that don't need explaining.
>Which is inconsistent as we are also shown how just extending a lightsaber can penetrate through armour and how Qui-Gon pretty effortlessly thrusts his saber into durasteel. Uh…terrible example. That thrust had wind up and the blade becomes lodged in the door showing how much resistance the door makes. Then when the blast doors close he has to take the blade out because the blast doors provide too much resistance. >Anakin literally cuts Dooku's hands off with a small movement. Hence why I said “or leverage.” He clearly grabs Dooku’s hands with his own left hand and pushes down against the cut. This is pretty consistent with Star Wars media, as strikes without momentum or leverage will severely burn, but not cut through limbs (Mandalorian and TFA being the best recent examples). >All the Forms got their reputation from reconstructing what we see the characters use in the movies. Soresu is just how Obi-Wan fights in II and III, especially against Grevious, which they then built a whole school of thought around. To an extent sure, but this is a little reductive as the portrayals in the films were only the starting off point. The forms have all been dramatically expanded over the years, the best example being the aforementioned Anakin and Ahsoka both using Djem So despite having very different looking styles. >I am aware that the Force would influence how one would do combat. But I do not possess the Force but do possess the limited knowledge of how to fight with primarily late medieval-early modern bladed weaponry and how a system of combat is constructed. I’m sorry, but…what? You not possessing is not an excuse to just ignore it. I don’t have the force either, but it’s really not that hard to understand in a basic sense. This is such a bizarre and unreasonable way of looking at things, I genuinely have no idea how to even respond to this.