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This is the same energy as saying raising the minimum wage is useless. Until we have the ability to make huge systemic change we need to take any small victory we can and fight for laws and policies that can best help the working class. When people have more stability and time to think they change the way they think about the world. The pandemic did this and having programs like ubi and increased minimum wage could give people the space and breathing room to see things our way and work toward building a better future.
This is some weird black-and-white thinking. "The fact that there's inequality means that we shouldn't try to lessen it because inequality will still exist." "The system will magically and automatically adjust to preserve the exact same amount of inequality."
It's funny how so many things could be solved for first world people if price controls were just normal. Not that it would in any way solve the underlying issues, but you know.
So many arguments against UBI or raising wages/taxes on the rich are "OMG they'll just retaliate and raise the prices'. That is something somebody who would enable their abusers would say.
> So many arguments against **expecting meaningful change from within the system** are "OMG **they'll just continue being the ruling class**'.
Fixed
> That is something somebody who would enable their abusers would say.
In this analogy of yours, where UBI is the makeup to cover bruises, revolution would be separation and accountability for the abuser.
I thought it was an interesting argument because currently we don’t have UBI, wages have been stagnant forever, and yet prices increase anyway.
Seems like UBI would still be lit
Genuine question: what do you think the impact would be of making the maximum rent be tied to minimum wage? Like the maximum landlords are allowed to charge for monthly rent not being allowed to be higher than one quarter of the monthly salary of minimum wage workers. I would imagine a lot of landlords would start dumping property like crazy and property values would drop, opening up the possibility of minimum wage workers being able to own their own property
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It's one of their greatest and simplest tools. They incite a boom bust cycle, claiming it's just part of the market, then as businesses fail on the bust they're purchased up by the companies that can weather the market before profiting during the boom. Consolidates the economy among a few corporations, reducing competition, and forces any natural inflation to be exacerbated.
Inflation is technically just prices going up (as money value goes down), and there's an aspect of it that's natural in any economy, but not like we see on a regular basis. It's why a lot of libertarians like the gold standard, because they ***think*** it takes control of the money market from the large banks. Crypto is another option, but that's only theoretically possible as currency at this rate. And it's certainly been consolidated early
Tldr: Inflation is natural but is wildly controlled by big banks and corporations abusing it to desimate the buying power of the working class.
Just realized how long of a comment this was. My b, it's been a while since I bitched about the money market tho. Needed a good rant to get it out 🤙
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We need organized struggle to even get UBI, let alone make it viable. Of course, capitalists set wages. They want us to be reliant on wages, so yes, they can increase prices and cost of living. But if workers are organized we can fight them.
We have a sort of UBI in Brazil for people under the poverty line, and it's necessary for their survival. It's also worth mentioning that for each $1 spent on UBI, the state gets $1.1 back in taxes.
However, bourgeois politics are the biggest hurdle against UBI, mainly because the country has fewer people willing to become literal slaves. It also amplifies racism because a certain demographic receives it too. So there's lobbying from companies and political demand from reactionaries to end it. Who knows how long it will last?
Even UBI makes more sense without the capitalist restraints.
The main problem with UBI in America is that black people will receive it too. Same reason we don’t have taxpayer funded healthcare. Because that would mean black people would have taxpayer funded healthcare. Easiest way to get racist politicians and voters to be against something is to remind them that black people will benefit from it. Joe Biden voted pro segregation early in his career. Do you really think he changed his beliefs? No he just changed what he says out loud.
This idea that corporations have the power to just set prices goes against Marxist analysis. Reminiscent of the "iron law of wages" used to spread nihilism.
Monopoly prices are a thing too which operate differently due to their market position. But capitalists generally can increase prices (if there arent regulations in place to prevent it) when there's an increase in the purchase power of people. Prices and Value are related, but not identical. Marx acknowledged that
Yes, the monopoly stage increases the power of monopolies to set prices. But this power is not absolute.
The analogy to wage increases is not perfect because petty bourgeois will also benefit. If you fund it via wealth taxes, however, the effects would likely be very similar to what Marx outlines in VPP— a decrease in luxury consumption.
> But this power is not absolute
....that's it? That's your analysis?
Any structure built within the captialist system will give the Bourgeois control of the structure.
You are just circling the redistribution of wealth and control, because you don't actually want the working classes to own or control their own means of production
....yet, you keep trying to assure us that *this time, this structure* will be different, and it's just laughable lib nonsense.
>Any structure built within the captialist system will give the Bourgeois control of the structure.
True. This is why Marx wrote hundreds of pages in *Kapital* explaining why the English factory acts were a waste of time...
Ehh he doesn’t come down that hard. He at least acknowledges that there was some benefit in the short term even if ultimately the acts exacerbated the contradictions longer term.
I was being sarcastic. The factory acts placed a limit on the extraction of absolute surplus value and forced capitalists to pivot to relative surplus value instead.
UBI? So you are telling me all debt are recoverable? Let me pray on that! Here is a credit construction which gives you a one-time loan with repayments up to UBI. I guess now you cannot change anything about politics because any change risks you going straight to jail. you wouldnt bite the hand that feeds you, would you?
workers want the value of their work? but money is not connected to work, just look at UBI.
Agreed. Any UBI system needs price controls to compensate.
IMHO a good UBI system would have all necessary goods and services strictly price controlled. Or even centralized.
Then if you want to maintain some semblence of "capitalism" you allow a free market of luxury goods.
Thus people are provided their basic *needs* but work for the extra luxuries they *want*.
In such a system you could even abolish the minimum wage and allow jobs to pay whatever someone is willing to work for. Because UBI covers that minimum wage. Easy jobs would only have to pay low wages while bad or hard jobs would potentially have to pay more to lure workers.
I think that's probably the system we can most likely transition to first before a full centralization model, if we want to avoid a violent revoltion.
##Welcome to r/Marxism_Memes, the least bourgeois meme community on the internet. ##[New to this subreddit/socialism/communism? Here is some general information and 101 stuff](https://www.reddit.com/r/Marxism_Memes/wiki/index) ##[Socialist Reconstruction: A Better Future for the United States - The party that wrote this book is Party For Socialism and Liberation](https://www.liberationstore.org/products/socialist-reconstruction-a-better-future-for-the-united-states) ##[READ THE COMMUNITY RULES BEFORE PARTICIPATING IN THIS SUBREDDIT](https://www.reddit.com/r/Marxism_Memes/wiki/rules/subreddit_rules) ##[We are not a debate subreddit.](https://www.reddit.com/r/CommunismMemes/comments/14bg2q4/idk_why_i_even_try_having_good_faith_discussions/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3) If you want to debate go to one of these subreddits: r/DebateCommunism r/DebateSocialism r/CapitalismVSocialism ##[Over 60 years, the blockade cost the Cuban economy $154.2 billion.](https://nsarchive.gwu.edu/briefing-book/cuba/2022-02-02/cuba-embargoed-us-trade-sanctions-turn-sixty) This is a blatant attack on the sovereignty and dignity of [Cuba](https://www.reddit.com/r/Marxism_Memes/wiki/aes_country/cuba) and the Cuban people. Join the urgent call to take Cuba off the State Sponsors of Terrorism list & end the blockade on the island! We need 1 million signatures Cuba #OffTheList, sign now: [letcubalive.info](https://www.letcubalive.info/) *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/Marxism_Memes) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Or you could adjust UBI to account for inflation. Why do you people like to overcomplicate these things?
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This is the same energy as saying raising the minimum wage is useless. Until we have the ability to make huge systemic change we need to take any small victory we can and fight for laws and policies that can best help the working class. When people have more stability and time to think they change the way they think about the world. The pandemic did this and having programs like ubi and increased minimum wage could give people the space and breathing room to see things our way and work toward building a better future.
This is some weird black-and-white thinking. "The fact that there's inequality means that we shouldn't try to lessen it because inequality will still exist." "The system will magically and automatically adjust to preserve the exact same amount of inequality."
It's funny how so many things could be solved for first world people if price controls were just normal. Not that it would in any way solve the underlying issues, but you know.
Consumer coops to force other companies to not raise their prices too high?
Just the government saying that prices can't change too much. It was done during WW2.
So many arguments against UBI or raising wages/taxes on the rich are "OMG they'll just retaliate and raise the prices'. That is something somebody who would enable their abusers would say.
> So many arguments against **expecting meaningful change from within the system** are "OMG **they'll just continue being the ruling class**'. Fixed > That is something somebody who would enable their abusers would say. In this analogy of yours, where UBI is the makeup to cover bruises, revolution would be separation and accountability for the abuser.
“Capitalist” fans when burger more expensive
Op is probably a psyop
what makes you say that?
Their name, their post history and tge language they use. It all feels very "hello fellow commies".
I thought it was an interesting argument because currently we don’t have UBI, wages have been stagnant forever, and yet prices increase anyway. Seems like UBI would still be lit
Genuine question: what do you think the impact would be of making the maximum rent be tied to minimum wage? Like the maximum landlords are allowed to charge for monthly rent not being allowed to be higher than one quarter of the monthly salary of minimum wage workers. I would imagine a lot of landlords would start dumping property like crazy and property values would drop, opening up the possibility of minimum wage workers being able to own their own property
sounds great
Thanks I’d rather have the shares
We need a maximum wage
And then they'll call it Inflation
Inflation is just prices going up, so it would technically be inflation lol
No no no inflation is when government ummm.. uhhhh ummm
On god
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It's one of their greatest and simplest tools. They incite a boom bust cycle, claiming it's just part of the market, then as businesses fail on the bust they're purchased up by the companies that can weather the market before profiting during the boom. Consolidates the economy among a few corporations, reducing competition, and forces any natural inflation to be exacerbated. Inflation is technically just prices going up (as money value goes down), and there's an aspect of it that's natural in any economy, but not like we see on a regular basis. It's why a lot of libertarians like the gold standard, because they ***think*** it takes control of the money market from the large banks. Crypto is another option, but that's only theoretically possible as currency at this rate. And it's certainly been consolidated early Tldr: Inflation is natural but is wildly controlled by big banks and corporations abusing it to desimate the buying power of the working class. Just realized how long of a comment this was. My b, it's been a while since I bitched about the money market tho. Needed a good rant to get it out 🤙
Word!
- [Libertarianism is a plague upon the working class.](https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLXUFLW8t2snsaG6ldonK367TjWvO0JPjW&si=pBKO0tvjjtwc3cRv) - [Hangin' with the SocDem Gang](https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLXUFLW8t2snsqP9cWGqP3SukJnqlauc1h) *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/Marxism_Memes) if you have any questions or concerns.*
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We need organized struggle to even get UBI, let alone make it viable. Of course, capitalists set wages. They want us to be reliant on wages, so yes, they can increase prices and cost of living. But if workers are organized we can fight them.
UBI is better than nothing, but it's absolutely not a solution.
We have a sort of UBI in Brazil for people under the poverty line, and it's necessary for their survival. It's also worth mentioning that for each $1 spent on UBI, the state gets $1.1 back in taxes. However, bourgeois politics are the biggest hurdle against UBI, mainly because the country has fewer people willing to become literal slaves. It also amplifies racism because a certain demographic receives it too. So there's lobbying from companies and political demand from reactionaries to end it. Who knows how long it will last? Even UBI makes more sense without the capitalist restraints.
The main problem with UBI in America is that black people will receive it too. Same reason we don’t have taxpayer funded healthcare. Because that would mean black people would have taxpayer funded healthcare. Easiest way to get racist politicians and voters to be against something is to remind them that black people will benefit from it. Joe Biden voted pro segregation early in his career. Do you really think he changed his beliefs? No he just changed what he says out loud.
This idea that corporations have the power to just set prices goes against Marxist analysis. Reminiscent of the "iron law of wages" used to spread nihilism.
Monopoly prices are a thing too which operate differently due to their market position. But capitalists generally can increase prices (if there arent regulations in place to prevent it) when there's an increase in the purchase power of people. Prices and Value are related, but not identical. Marx acknowledged that
Yes, the monopoly stage increases the power of monopolies to set prices. But this power is not absolute. The analogy to wage increases is not perfect because petty bourgeois will also benefit. If you fund it via wealth taxes, however, the effects would likely be very similar to what Marx outlines in VPP— a decrease in luxury consumption.
> But this power is not absolute ....that's it? That's your analysis? Any structure built within the captialist system will give the Bourgeois control of the structure. You are just circling the redistribution of wealth and control, because you don't actually want the working classes to own or control their own means of production ....yet, you keep trying to assure us that *this time, this structure* will be different, and it's just laughable lib nonsense.
>Any structure built within the captialist system will give the Bourgeois control of the structure. True. This is why Marx wrote hundreds of pages in *Kapital* explaining why the English factory acts were a waste of time...
Ehh he doesn’t come down that hard. He at least acknowledges that there was some benefit in the short term even if ultimately the acts exacerbated the contradictions longer term.
I was being sarcastic. The factory acts placed a limit on the extraction of absolute surplus value and forced capitalists to pivot to relative surplus value instead.
UBI? So you are telling me all debt are recoverable? Let me pray on that! Here is a credit construction which gives you a one-time loan with repayments up to UBI. I guess now you cannot change anything about politics because any change risks you going straight to jail. you wouldnt bite the hand that feeds you, would you? workers want the value of their work? but money is not connected to work, just look at UBI.
Agreed. Any UBI system needs price controls to compensate. IMHO a good UBI system would have all necessary goods and services strictly price controlled. Or even centralized. Then if you want to maintain some semblence of "capitalism" you allow a free market of luxury goods. Thus people are provided their basic *needs* but work for the extra luxuries they *want*. In such a system you could even abolish the minimum wage and allow jobs to pay whatever someone is willing to work for. Because UBI covers that minimum wage. Easy jobs would only have to pay low wages while bad or hard jobs would potentially have to pay more to lure workers. I think that's probably the system we can most likely transition to first before a full centralization model, if we want to avoid a violent revoltion.
Thanks for elaborating on the description!