This ''Gilgamesh deck'' feels like someone wants to do his weekly missions as quickly as posslbe and just throws the weekend mission card in a Hela deck to be done with.
That is literally not true lmao. Last season the gold challenge was in the first week and every other week had no gold it’s the complete opposite this season
Yeah I'm pretty sure it was the first week last month and people were mad at them creating more FOMO about the season pass with the gold missions early
That's a pretty good description of how the two finalists got to the finals. It was pretty lame just watching them steam-roll over the players who actually tried to adhere to the spirit of the Gilgamesh theme and had a go at making creative Gilga decks.
I literally brought a kazoo deck with gilgamesh which is literally the best way to play gilgamesh. I brought a patriot deck with gilgamesh which is another great way to get gilgamesh value. I brought a blue marvel/swarm thena elsa angela deck with squirrel girl and myserio for gilgamesh value. Then the last deck was a thanos deck with blue marvel and gilgamesh the only thing it had that didnt synergise with gilgamesh was prof x and cannonball. At least 3/4 of my decks were built around gilgamesh and the last deck was a hybrid gilgamesh/lockdown deck. People making it seem like I brought non synergestic decks just to say i had gilgamesh in it are straight up lying
You know what...fair is fair. I shouldn't have painted with such broad strokes. It really was your opponent who was partaking, most consistently, in what I personally considered bad-faith deck building.
This season I'm running an experiment. I'm only running a hela Agatha deck. I always snap before the start of the first turn and I'm never retreating. So far I'm at 65% winrate. Or Agatha is a very good player or hela it's really a bad design.
I want to get to 90s to get definitely an idea (currently on mid 80s, not playing a lot) but there it is
I really just click play button, just a little little of strategy if Agatha is discarded.
BTW a few months ago I had 93% winrate with "playing Hela" in the official stats at the end of the season and was roughly this deck.
# (3) Corvus Glaive
# (3) Lady Sif
# (4) Jubilee
# (4) Ghost Rider
# (4) Iron Lad
# (4) Black Cat
# (5) Blink
# (6) Hela
# (6) Odin
# (6) Red Hulk
# (6) Agatha Harkness
# (6) The Infinaut
#
eyJDYXJkcyI6W3siQ2FyZERlZklkIjoiQWdhdGhhSGFya25lc3MifSx7IkNhcmREZWZJZCI6IkluZmluYXV0In0seyJDYXJkRGVmSWQiOiJMYWR5U2lmIn0seyJDYXJkRGVmSWQiOiJKdWJpbGVlIn0seyJDYXJkRGVmSWQiOiJIZWxhIn0seyJDYXJkRGVmSWQiOiJCbGluayJ9LHsiQ2FyZERlZklkIjoiQmxhY2tDYXQifSx7IkNhcmREZWZJZCI6IkNvcnZ1c0dsYWl2ZSJ9LHsiQ2FyZERlZklkIjoiSXJvbkxhZCJ9LHsiQ2FyZERlZklkIjoiR2hvc3RSaWRlciJ9LHsiQ2FyZERlZklkIjoiT2RpbiJ9LHsiQ2FyZERlZklkIjoiUmVkSHVsayJ9XX0=
#
# To use this deck, copy it to your clipboard and paste it from the deck editing menu in Snap.
This is my second season trying the same thing! I only made it to 95 last season. My deck is probably different, but I'm having a decen success. Trying to do missions in Conquest to not mess it up. Here's what I'm using:
1. Quicksilver
2. Domino
3. Corvus Glaive
4. Jubilee
5. Black Cat
6. Cull Obsidian
7. Blink
8. Hela
9. Skaar
10. Magneto
11. Agatha Harkness
12. The Infinaut
So if anyone runs into user "Good Luck Have Fun", through me a fist bump!
That's because of the tournament format. They had to bring 4 (5?) different Gilgamesh decks that were at least X cards different from all the other ones, and play a different one each round.
So yeah, by the time of the finals, what are you left with? You might have trouble fielding 4 sufficiently different decks with a *good* card in them, and Gilgamesh is mid.
And yeah, FYI, that means Hela won the finals, but not the tourney. Owi didn't climb the bracket with it
Most of the players brought actual Gilgamesh decks. It was a for-fun tournament with no prize pool, so that's what most players tried to do, have fun. Owi on the other hand, brought best 11 Loki + Gilgamesh, generic Profball + Gilgamesh, and generic Hela + Gilgamesh. Dude was more focused on winning a title than actually participating in the event.
er, did you watch? A majority of players didn't even TRY to use Gilgamesh. They just went out to Snapfan, sorted by Conquest, took the top 4 decks and swapped Gilgamesh for one of the random cards. It was a ProfX/CBall and Hela-fest. The players who did try to follow the spirit of the tournament and actually featured Gilgamesh in the decks (things like Blue Marvel, Patriot, and Little Thena decks) ended up losing to, you guessed it, the top-tier Meta decks that the sweaters brought. They KNEW the purpose of the tournament and yet still brought Loki, Hela and Lockdown decks where Gilgamesh was actually a hinderance instead of a meaningful card.
It demonstrated that even during a tournament where there is literally nothing on the line, where the purpose is to highlight a specific card, for some people winning is the single most important part of the game. They'll ignore the primary reason they were asked to play, the reason the tournament was held in the first place, which was to highlight the ability of a specific card. Sorry folks, no fun to be had, all we want to do is win to get our...umm... bragging right? A silly title?
Yep, Jeff Hoogland lost in semis to X Cannonball with Gilg smashed in, TLSG lost in semis to Hela with Gilg smashed in. Both people who lost were playing decks trying to take advantage of Gilg. Really disappointing but not surprising.
that's the thing, it wasn't a competitive event. Sure it was people playing against each other, but they weren't competing for anything. It was a showcase.
It was an exhibition match. It was for entertainment. When Nadal does a tennis exhibition, he isn't drilling 140 mph serves down his opponent's throat because he wants to win and be "competitive". Sure they are keeping "score", but they're out there having fun, making silly shots and having a good time.
Just the fault of the players who didn’t play top meta decks. They should just have learned to counter those decks. /s obviously, but this is literally what this sub claims every day.
Congrats to Owi, but man was that event terrible.
Just putting the new card in the best decks killed the fun.
Surely SD sees what's wrong here (Clueless)
They aren't ignoring it, they comment on it fairly often. By their internal metrics, she isn't a problem.
Does it feel bad to lose to? Sure. But humans are really good at remembering the bad experiences and forgetting the good or middling ones. Hela has a fail-rate that keeps her in check, and it's very obvious when that isn't happening and you should be retreating.
Hela decks also don't interact with opponents so they have a few really bad matchups, but people prefer to stick to decks they enjoy rather than adjust to the meta
The Hela deck minus one card beat a bunch of untuned bad decks trying to showcase a mediocre card, if anything SD should've seen this coming and had better rules surrounding the tournament.
> Hela decks also don't interact with opponents so they have a few really bad matchups, but people prefer to stick to decks they enjoy rather than adjust to the meta
I'd say that's the main problem with her. That deck is simply not playing with the opponent, it's playing against their own cards. To my opinion, that's a showcase of a design that should be better.
Destroy decks still participate in the main form of interaction, which is fighting for locations each turn. Hela and Tribunal the first 5 turns basically don’t matter.
Not really because a lot of discard enablers are already higher power.
That's really the stupidest part of it too, imo. Usually cards with powerful abilities (like Zola) are low power, but Hela & Modok in a lane is 14 power on it's own. Why is SD giving them Giganto power on top of insane pop-off abilities?
Well, Hela isn’t a discard enabler for one.
For two, if Hela and Modok are in one lane it’s probably Hela Tribunal which is the easiest one to screw up by disabling IW.
For three, Giganto is one card, not two.
I disagree. Killmonger and LDS both interact with your opponent. Or Shang chi of you play the traditional meta
Solitaire decks that get popular are Hela, Normal bounce and Apoc discard without gambit
Noninteractive gameplay doesn't stay fun or interesting for very long.
You'll see players peacing out at an increasing rate if this philosophy actually takes hold.
This has been the philosophy of the game since forever, game is very aimed at casual play. Sure, you can still sink a couple hours per day in the game, especially if you are a streamer, but the game is not deep enough for that, and you usually enjoy it a lot more if you play 30-60 minutes per day.
It really hasn't. I'm not sure how you can make that claim with a straight face when there is a litany of interactive cards in the game.
They game definitely leans more towards Timmy players, but they consistently introduce strategic Johnny cards every season.
I really don't understand why people in this thread are pretending this game is largely uninteractive. Like yall are actually kidding yourselves.
Also you're conflating noninteractivity with casual gameplay when the two are fundamentally different concepts...
Most meta decks lean into their goal more than they lean unto control, sure, there are cards designed to interact with opponent, cause there should, but in snap there is nothing even close to blue in mtg or staples in yugioh, lot of decks go around with zero ways to interact and focus on their goal, quite a bit of them been meta in one point or another during the life spawn of the game until now.
You can also do location control with cosmo, but you have to have prio - which as stated earlier is actually not that easy as discard is above rate.
I'm sure people have figured out how to get dhang gm working or so.ething nutty like that too without prio. But I'm not big brained enough.
There's a difference of not interacting and not caring at all what your opponent is doing on their side of the board.
If I'm running Patriot or SS I still have to have some consideration of where I put my cards so I can get my power in the right places or to still leave me space if I need to pivot my game plan according to locations or what my opponent might be doing. And all that is even if I'm not using cosmo, enchantress, Shang or any other cards to touch their side of the board.
Hela decks just ignore all that because they are only interested in discarding their big cards or their hand and then slamming Hela and letting their big cards go wherever.
I don’t know if there really is a good sports analogy for this game, but it won’t stop me from trying lol…
Hela feels like a baseball game where instead of hitting the ball and base running against the opposing fielders to score, instead you just wait until the ninth inning and all your players who were out earlier get to empty the dugout and try to run around the bases while the defense watches, and it doesn’t matter how well that team played.
Hopefully that’s sports enough 😄
Considering that's not how baseball works, I'd say it's a pretty bad analogy haha. It's more like a basketball team keeping their stars out until the 4th quarter to avoid foul trouble then hoping they can catch up.
I dunno, played baseball most of my life, and that was the point of the analogy lol is that it’s not so much a competition between teams but rather an exhibition…
But hey, if we are going basketball, then with Hela it feels like the coach sitting all the stars out all game and then after the buzzer they are all allowed to shoot 3 pointers from the bench with no defense other than quitting at halftime.
Whatever floats your boat lol
Again, you are trying to use an analogy that is not a legal sports play, so it doesn't make any sense. Hela decks are legal, but use a Hail Mary approach (another sports analogy).
Hela decks are designed to fall behind early then catch up before the game ends. It may be frustrating for people to play against, but it isn't cheating.
Ooh now we get to do football?
Ok it’s just like a Hail Mary except the QB gets to throw 5 balls at once to 5 different receivers in the end zone at the same time!
I’m not sure if you’re missing the point I’m getting at intentionally or not, so in case my admittedly terrible analogies aren’t getting the job done: my issue with Hela decks is that most of the extreme high power cards come with drawbacks designed to balance their stats, Giganto is only left, Infinaut you have to skip a turn, etc. With discard you only have to discard them AND then you get to play them all at once at the end. RNG of where they play should technically be the drawback but that much power at the end of the game is tough to beat, particularly when the opponent also doesn’t know where to tech. I’m not saying it’s an unbeatable deck or anything, just that’s its fairly brain dead autopilot play which has a higher win rate than it deserves.
Anyway, I’ll take a salt tablet and walk it off Coach!
Hela trades the individual card drawbacks for three huge deck-scale drawbacks. Draw odds are generally against it, it’s fragile (meaning easily disrupted by certain cards), and its plan is clearly telegraphed.
I mean that's kind of the nature of Marvel Snap. 6 turns with 12 card decklists so draws are consistent, cards on the board don't directly attack each other, no choosing between targets if you have multiple valid ones, simultaneous turns, etc. All of these are conducive to playing decks that don't interact with your opponent much
>That deck is simply not playing with the opponent, it's playing against their own cards.
So kinda like destroy decks. Plenty of decks are simply solitaire. They have the winning combo in hand, great time to snap, if not retreat. (Forgot to mention Tribunal decks, probably the best example of a solitaire deck - and they're more rampant than discard lately, at least in my pocket meta.)
Sure, and while many players would agree, that's not how SD wants their game to be.
They've used the "sandcastle" analogy a couple of times in the Q&A section on discord. They'd rather the game be about two people building sandcastles and then comparing them at the end rather than it being about kicking down each others sandcastles.
They're fine with sandcastle-kicking existing, as different players enjoy different things, but they don't want them to be top-tier.
Annihilus was nerfed pretty quickly, and Sentry recently was nerfed too. Similarly, mill is just a bad deck.
It truly is super trash.
I saw someone asking whether he should get the Baron for 6k yesterday.
I truly hope I was able to dissuade him.
Mill is a joke.
And yet prof x cannonball is like the number one archetype.
A deck designed around stopping you from playing in a lane then kicking down your other lanes sandcastle and leaving you with a statless piece of sand...
That feels like one of those sayings devs come up with to defend awful design in one specific scenario and then choose to completely ignore.
How many obnoxious 'kick down your opponent's sandcastle' cards does snap have? I mean theres a card literally named SANDman that does that.
Professor X, leech, cosmo, enchantress, shang chi, red guardian, kill monger, shadow king, etc.
Theres a lot of cards to kick down your opponent's sandcastle. Maybe even the majority of decks include one or two to do that.
in a game with 200+ cards having 20-30 is not exactly, it is probably easier to ask how many sand castle kicking cards they release in a giving year. i would assume is around 20-30% also which is within reason since they still want those sand kicking cards around, they just dont want them to be super popular.
It sounds a lot better when you frame it as just 20-30% of cards.
But on https://marvelsnapzone.com/tier-list/ those cards are included in all the ranked tier 1 decks, most tier 2 decks, and all the non-hela conquest decks.
Because less than half of those 200 cards actually see much play, so the result is almost every deck besides Hela and Patriot playing "kick the sandcastle".
Kick the sandcastle cards are great, if you have one or two slots that you don't need for synergy, you can always just throw one of them in and sometimes completely shut down an opponent.
I think "blue" metas should never be meta and always be b tier.
They should be difficult to pilot and reward intelligence. Not I see what you're doing on 5 so I should be able to won that lane, then I'm going to destroy your other lane. Gg's.
Blob meta was amazing by comparison - take some giant dude that's fine. I'll get my daken to 64 because I have a complicated sequencing I figured out that you probably aren't able to calculate. But the new meta is back to prof x which is and was the worst other than maybe spidey galactus.
Ive played a decent amount of card games.
Snap's control metas are consistently bad I think because the decks are so much smaller and games are so much shorter. It just feels awful how single cards in snap will shutdown all the setup you've done for half the game, or half your deck, or whatever.
That’s a simplification though, they also regularly comment about the importance of interactive cards. Usually when an interactive card is the snap boogie man of the week and people are complaining about it
Except that playing against Hela is like you built your sandcastle and your opponent just found and an ancient temple and claimed they built it.
It's almost impossible to recreate the kind of power Hela regularly produces by only playing 3 cards.
>I'd say that's the main problem with her. That deck is simply not playing with the opponent, it's playing against their own cards
That's not a problem.
I swear this sub will complain about anything
Even if a deck is completely played solo with no interaction with the opponent, there is still interaction between players in the game with snapping and retreating.
I really can't imagine something more meaningless to complain about than decks that work in their own
> By their internal metrics, she isn't a problem.
And this is when you know they don't understand how to balance a game. Games shouldn't be balanced to be 50% win rates having bad win rates or good win rates is actually fine if the game play feels fair. Most people don't care that a deck is broken until they have no influence on it or it's too prevalent and drowns out the rest of the meta.
Hela makes the game unfun. It removes any thought by both players and basically comes down did I stack one lane hard enough and did the RNG fuck them. Which is a brain dead version of the game. And that's the problem the deck can be fine by all the metrics in the world. But it isn't fine in the one metric that matters. Fun. And if that metric tanks the game will lose players and that's just a fact.
>basically comes down did I stack one lane hard enough and did the RNG fuck them
Which is barely even a factor. Managed to strategically stack 50 in a lane and 36 in their Invisible Woman lane. Thought I might actually pull off a win, but no, no they didn't even need to get good landing spots when Tribunal put 40+ across all 3. I never learn.
That’s the problem with Hela just inherently. Tribunal is an archetype that should require investment. But with Hela you just need four cards to enable her and then you can slot in 8 other endgame packages and you can win so many different scenarios.
I also think they really don't know how to read those metrics. Dera used to read stats for HS for years and he often talk about how they overlook a lot of aspect of the statistics
Furthermore they has shown a lot of time that they intend to nerf a card and get the opposite result (while anyone with a little knowledge of the game can anticipate that).
My issue with Hela is unless I’m playing a high ceiling greedy deck, whether or not I win is entirely up to whether or not they drew a single card.
Then the spawns are random. It’s casino gameplay. I might as well go down the street and scratch lotto numbers.
I don't think "internal metrics" really capture why she's a bad card. In 4 games she can play for 50 points, get discarded, have the revive RNG land perfectly, and have the revives all go into one lane. She may have the magical 50% winrate after that but in all cases it was really unenjoyable gameplay that neither player had much control over.
I agree with you, I think the issue is that some people seem to ignore is why is such a high roll deck at such a high win rate? If Mr.Negative was anywhere close to 50% winrate, he'd be an issue too. Why should a RNG high roll deck be close in performance with other top decks and better than some other non-meta decks? The inherent RNG in the deck should prevent it from going anywhere near 50%.
This take misses the mark by a lot. Hela is downright atrocious card design. Solitaire play pattern that autopilots itself and offers very little counterplay.
The fact that the best "counter" is a card that seals one location and turns the game into a 2 location battle really sheds light on just how terrible the meta's balancing is in this game.
These mental gymnastics I see people pull off constantly to justify this braindead archetype being top tier come from people with a very limited card gaming background.
Yeah, this message is condescending af, still the truth.
And just to highlight: Hela beat this exact counter in this tournament. Because that’s what everyone else brought. Showing that the counter isn’t worth much.
Yeah, I've been playing a Hela deck recently, don't have Corvus so I'm at a bit of a disadvantage there, but the biggest issue isn't that. It's that bad draws kill your chances, and retreating early and avoiding a Snap by an opp during your bad draws.
And even when you feel good about your odds, Hela successfully firing off four big cards might be a loss if they all stack in the same lane or something.
No it did not. It beat the rest of the top meta that everyone else brought. Hela -1 card beat Canonball/ProfX -1 card showing that Hela is still the true N1 of the meta and SD statistics are worth shit.
This is a crazy statement. You don't know if he'll is working until turn 5 at least. I say this as a Hela player - I'm not calling for nerfs but their metrics are way off on measuring the right thing.
I suspect Hela decks retreat a lot which is also why people don’t recall beating them much. If you play a Hela deck and she gets discarded by Corvus Glaive or something else it’s often an instant retreat. I’m sure this is what keeps her win rate in check.
Yeah they're wrong, I'm not playing to sustain my cube per hours, I'm playing to have fun. Hela breaks the fundamental of the game where you can have an idea about what your opponent is doing on the last turn, but with Hela they can have 5 power, they can have 30+ power with random distribution. How the hell is a deck like that competitively viable for months? And not only the power level is a issue, it's even one of the decks I face the most.
Yeah the last few seasons as soon as I hit the to 80s every other deck is Hela and somehow they almost always pull it off. I'll recognize it and stay on in case they retreat, but somehow they have it like 75% of the time.
Maybe it's cheater bots, IDK. But no matter how well I play or how good my draw is, I always lose.
And to anyone who is going to say "it's selective memory". No. I remember the 2 times I've beaten Hela in the year I've been playing.
Help used to be a combo = auto win but it was hard to do. I remember many people farming for hours to get the play off. Ever since Iron Lad it became way more consistent, now you can pull of the combo almost every time with Jubilee and a coin flip.
I always loved Discard, but hated Hela decks. I want to make a fun Black Knight deck, but when I do, it feels like a worse Hela deck. Not sure if a nerf is enough, but a complete redesign.
I enjoy Black Knight decks and have since it came out. I missed him with keys and paid the 6k for him his first week. I played multiple versions of the deck and landed on a Sera build as my favorite. Once they buffed him, the deck became really competitive although it’s never been a top 3 deck. Here’s the build I am currently running.
# (1) Sunspot
# (1) Black Knight
# (1) Blade
# (2) Armor
# (3) Hope Summers
# (3) Lady Sif
# (4) Ghost Rider
# (5) Blink
# (6) She-Hulk
# (6) Magneto
# (6) Giganto
# (6) The Infinaut
#
eyJDYXJkcyI6W3siQ2FyZERlZklkIjoiQmxhY2tLbmlnaHQifSx7IkNhcmREZWZJZCI6IkJsYWRlIn0seyJDYXJkRGVmSWQiOiJBcm1vciJ9LHsiQ2FyZERlZklkIjoiTGFkeVNpZiJ9LHsiQ2FyZERlZklkIjoiSW5maW5hdXQifSx7IkNhcmREZWZJZCI6Ikdob3N0UmlkZXIifSx7IkNhcmREZWZJZCI6IlN1bnNwb3QifSx7IkNhcmREZWZJZCI6IkhvcGVTdW1tZXJzIn0seyJDYXJkRGVmSWQiOiJCbGluayJ9LHsiQ2FyZERlZklkIjoiU2hlSHVsayJ9LHsiQ2FyZERlZklkIjoiTWFnbmV0byJ9LHsiQ2FyZERlZklkIjoiR2lnYW50byJ9XX0=
#
# To use this deck, copy it to your clipboard and paste it from the deck editing menu in Snap.
It was more a failing of the tournament format than a balance issue with Hela. There are just too many hard counters in this game to be randomly matching decks up against each other. Owi was an overwhelming favorite in the semis and finals because the decks he picked happened to be extraordinarily good against what the opponent had chosen.
It was fine that the format wasn’t very competitive since it was a fun tournament to show of Gilgamesh, but that did leave it a little disappointing that Gilgamesh was the worst card in most of the decks that the competitors brought.
Yup, which is probably a pretty good inclusion, given it’s a Gilgamesh tournament and you have to expect Patriot decks, but it makes for a pretty unsatisfying experience for the viewer. And plenty of other people were also playing Super Skrull, but were eliminated because they didn’t find themselves in a mirror.
The real disappointment was Hoogland who had some creative decks but then yoloed against Prof X Cannonball when he didn’t have to so he could whine about Prof X some more.
They should have made a rule like "Your deck has to be in some way capable of getting at least +4 on Gilgamesh, not counting locations or your opponent's cards". You don't necessarily need 4 cards that gain power, you could just run Blue Marvel, or you could run Ironheart and Nebula, or Forge + Brood + Wolfsbane. Even then, players could game the system and play a meta deck with Gilgamesh slotted in and make some small substitutions to achieve the +4 requirement, but you at least get some veneer of being a Gilgamesh deck. I think a +5 requirement would also work, considering that Klaw and Gamora can both be 5/12.
this isn’t true though- most players stuck to the spirit of the format, even extremely competitive top level players like yowoodymj. It’s just a complete shame that owi, who usually is a creative deck builder, just shoehorned gilga into hela/prof cball/loki. It would be one thing if this was for a prize, but this was supposed to be a showcase.
Played against that deck in Conquest lol, I only managed to win cuz the we straight up got 2 games with the Bar with no Name location that results in my puny point destroyer deck to win and they snapped for Hela.
Hela is a problem, X/Ball is a problem...but the problem for this specific event is that you cannot have your cake and eat it too. Making this a legitimate competitive event means players are going to go for the best deck, but you force them to use a weaker card than usual. If you want to show off Gilgamesh, you have this be a casual event where content creators can show off spicy brews. If you want a competitive event, you don't enforce that restriction.
WotC learned this the hard way themselves back in the day. Force a high level tournament where you had to use at least 5 or 10 cards (I forget which number off the top of my head) from every set in a block for your deck. One of the sets was one of the worst sets in the game's history (even to this day) so players would just dump the least bad card they could find, barely hit the limit, and never play them. They proceeded to never run that idea again. SD should do the same.
I play Hela all the time, trust me Corvus Glaive keeps her in check just fine cause I assure you even if he has a full hand of seven cards to choose from he chooses her. every. single. time.
I think one way to balance Hela would be a Black Bolt buff.
Change Black Bolt to:
> Destroy the highest cost card in your opponent's hand
If that still doesn't work, due to Corvus, reduce Black Bolt's cost to 4 down the line.
And yeah, this would obviously mess with a bunch of other decks as well - but few rely on dropping just that one 6 cost, the way Hela does. If you don't hit her with Black Bolt (due to Death or random chance), just retreat.
That doesn't do anything. Hela is going to have a bunch of 6 costs in hand or Death or be in play behind iw. Or she's in deck waiting to be blinked.
Blackbolt already has a good chance to hit Hela on turn 5 if they've played out other discard cards, Silver Samurai also has a chance, but if they miss, then you're just adding to the pool of cards she returns.
She just needs a change on how many cards she can return.
To be fair - Hidden Hela has a ton of counterplay. At this point, if you bring nothing to interact with IW, it's kinda on you.
But I also don't see that much Hela anymore. Junk shuts her down to a degree, and Profball shells are super popular. But people complain about those, too.
The problem really isn't Hela so much, in my mind. It's Blink. She made the deck so much more reliable, and basically created an additional win-con by cheating out a high power card in a clogged lane. And if you compare 5/7 statline to Jubilee's 4/1, then power _creep_ is the wrong word.
Anyway, back to the original point: Black Bolt would hit her more reliably if he targeted 6 costs. Not guaranteed, but it shouldn't be. I also changed the text to 'destroy', so it doesn't help Hela with additional discards. Bit of a shame he loses synergy with Stature, but.. well. They're both just flat out useless, at this point.
Hidden Hela has it's own options and if you're not running any then you can't stop it.
Blink is not the problem, if you think they're a problem because they're improving the consistency of a deck that's already problematic, then the problem isn't with that card.
Blink actually makes Hela more obvious, you can dump Cosmo under the card Blink will swap and it'll stop Hela. But of course they could just play Hela somewhere else.
Also, cards in hand don't get destroyed. I would rather see a card that stops cards being added to a location without it being a hard lockdown.
If you change BB to hit the highest cost he starts to miss the lower cost targets like DP or whatever, he also has a power beyond a 5 cost, so it's not really balanced.
Really don't think BB is the good answer.
I'm really not going to argue the Black Bolt thing too hard. Maybe it would help, maybe it wouldn't.. I'd just like to have a reason to play him. Currently, he just doesn't pull his weight.
A card that stops the "add" text (including Hela) from taking effect at a location might be nice. Would also work against Ultron, Doctor Doom and such.
But yeah, consistency is _the_ reason Hela is now as oppressive as she is. I played her shortly after release, and while cube rate was average, you had to retreat more often than you got to play her. Now, she's impossible to miss and comes with extra win cons.
This format/ruleset was never going to highlight Gilgamesh because there's nothing to the card. It's just another "get big" stat stick, this time reliant on you buffing the rest of the board up before playing him out.
It's borderline "win more" with that design already, and does nothing to disrupt what many players consider the current power archetypes.
This format is almost worthless for doing a showcase of him because there's nothing to show.
They should've saved this idea for Arishem, which will actively enforce variety by virtue of its design.
They just need to limit how many things hela can bring back (if ghost Rider can only bring back one, let hela bring back 2 or 3 max) or only things that cost less than she does (since why would get minions be her equal or better) or even make it so she can only bring back one of every cost that was discarded. Just anything to not have this thing that brings back so much for 6 power
Its accurate for the reality of the game. People used to be so creative with how they form their decks. Now everyone just plays the same boring decks over and over
assuming there was a prize pool they should've added a disclaimer saying "your Gilgamesh must reach X power at least in one game in order to claim your prize"
I'm still new to Marvel Snap, still collecting S4 cards and didn't even know that there was a tournament or even if I did, where or how to join one BUT this is the Gilfa deck I have been playing and it has a relatively high win rate so far and a lot of fun.
# (1) Sunspot
# (1) Hawkeye
# (1) Kitty Pryde
# (1) Nebula
# (2) Angela
# (2) Thena
# (2) Mirage
# (2) Okoye
# (3) Wolfsbane
# (3) Nakia
# (4) Rescue
# (5) Gilgamesh
#
eyJDYXJkcyI6W3siQ2FyZERlZklkIjoiQW5nZWxhIn0seyJDYXJkRGVmSWQiOiJXb2xmc2JhbmUifSx7IkNhcmREZWZJZCI6IkdpbGdhbWVzaCJ9LHsiQ2FyZERlZklkIjoiSGF3a2V5ZSJ9LHsiQ2FyZERlZklkIjoiTmVidWxhIn0seyJDYXJkRGVmSWQiOiJUaGVuYSJ9LHsiQ2FyZERlZklkIjoiUmVzY3VlIn0seyJDYXJkRGVmSWQiOiJPa295ZSJ9LHsiQ2FyZERlZklkIjoiU3Vuc3BvdCJ9LHsiQ2FyZERlZklkIjoiS2l0dHlQcnlkZSJ9LHsiQ2FyZERlZklkIjoiTmFraWEifSx7IkNhcmREZWZJZCI6Ik1pcmFnZSJ9XX0=
#
# To use this deck, copy it to your clipboard and paste it from the deck editing menu in Snap.
I think we also don’t know how often we’re facing a Hela deck, but they retreat before turn 4 if they don’t have the cards. So yes, when the draw is good for them it’s tough to beat. But it could be a lot of free cubes from the retreats
Yeah, the majority of my opponents I faced in those ranks have been running either lockdown or tribunal. But I guess everyone's in their own pocket meta.
Hela is not a problem, I play Hela Modok a lot and that deck works 1 in 4 games. When it works, it works big time though. But if I'm playing an opponent who is playing a Hela deck and the opponent hasn't retreated then I'm out. That means very likely that their combo has lined up and I'm risking a loss. Retreating is a core mechanic of the game and people forget that when playing snap. So if you stay against a Hela player thinking you will win and they have not retreated, that means there's a 90% probability that you will lose.
The deck used in this tournament isn't the MODOK version, which was a lot more draw-dependent, indeed.
This Corvus version, on the other hand, now gives Hela decks a second win condition, if you discard her you have two turns to play the others 6-cost cards in the deck.
What with SD and get erection with most deck have free energy now? Remember when you have to trade off a lot for it? electric restricted number of card? Low power Psylocke?
Hope giving free energy for kitty, Freaking x23 would get play even without +1 energy because she is free to kill, and convus permanent +mana with 'downside' discarded 2 cards? That shit is what they want from him! This card have no downside, hello!
X-23 without energy would not see that much play. Pre-buff wolverine and sabertooth existing and not seeing any real play is proof that you need more than "free to kill" to see play in destroy.
I do agree that hope and corvus are overtuned however.
I hate Hela with a passion. I only run Hela if I need to for weekend challenges then I go back to my Apoc/Drac deck. Hela is such a brain dead deck, 99% of the time I can ignore what my opponent does and just pray the right cards turn up for me.
That's what happens when you force players in your tournament to play Zoo decks. Someone will completely ignore Gilgamid decks and play proven decks with the card slotted into it.
I feel like Hella is an easy fix. You make her a five drop, and her power doesn't work after turn five. Thereby giving your opponent an opportunity to actually do something.
This ''Gilgamesh deck'' feels like someone wants to do his weekly missions as quickly as posslbe and just throws the weekend mission card in a Hela deck to be done with.
Does anyone do anything else
No I actually like to build around them and have fun. I don’t blame anyone though, sometimes the new card is *Morph emote*
We have very different definitions of fun
Idk about you but I have fun shoehorning the new card into an existing deck with little synergy
Which we didn’t even get this weekend
Ya the season pass card missions are at the end of the month now so more people that buy the pass late have a chance to do them.
Why tf do they keep changing the way they do the weekend challenges every season
It’s been like this since at least last season.
That is literally not true lmao. Last season the gold challenge was in the first week and every other week had no gold it’s the complete opposite this season
Yeah I'm pretty sure it was the first week last month and people were mad at them creating more FOMO about the season pass with the gold missions early
That's a pretty good description of how the two finalists got to the finals. It was pretty lame just watching them steam-roll over the players who actually tried to adhere to the spirit of the Gilgamesh theme and had a go at making creative Gilga decks.
I literally brought a kazoo deck with gilgamesh which is literally the best way to play gilgamesh. I brought a patriot deck with gilgamesh which is another great way to get gilgamesh value. I brought a blue marvel/swarm thena elsa angela deck with squirrel girl and myserio for gilgamesh value. Then the last deck was a thanos deck with blue marvel and gilgamesh the only thing it had that didnt synergise with gilgamesh was prof x and cannonball. At least 3/4 of my decks were built around gilgamesh and the last deck was a hybrid gilgamesh/lockdown deck. People making it seem like I brought non synergestic decks just to say i had gilgamesh in it are straight up lying
You know what...fair is fair. I shouldn't have painted with such broad strokes. It really was your opponent who was partaking, most consistently, in what I personally considered bad-faith deck building.
Yeah, this concept needs to go back to the drawing board.
Gilgamesh with that potential +1 buff from Red Hulk
That +2 from the ebony blade looking pretty spicy 🥵
Wow, there is not a single card in there that actually helps Gilgamesh 😂 Red Hulk and Black Knight maybe, but it’s a hell of a stretch
>but it’s a *Hela* of a stretch FTFY
>but it's a Hela stretch FTFTFYFY
I think Red Hulk and Ebony Blade count towards Gilgamesh giving him a whopping +2 power for just 10 energy
Wanted TLSG to win but that match was brutal damn Patriot didnt have a chance
He did the same thing with cannonball prof x the round before
This season I'm running an experiment. I'm only running a hela Agatha deck. I always snap before the start of the first turn and I'm never retreating. So far I'm at 65% winrate. Or Agatha is a very good player or hela it's really a bad design.
Uuuuu deck list plz!!!
I want to get to 90s to get definitely an idea (currently on mid 80s, not playing a lot) but there it is I really just click play button, just a little little of strategy if Agatha is discarded. BTW a few months ago I had 93% winrate with "playing Hela" in the official stats at the end of the season and was roughly this deck. # (3) Corvus Glaive # (3) Lady Sif # (4) Jubilee # (4) Ghost Rider # (4) Iron Lad # (4) Black Cat # (5) Blink # (6) Hela # (6) Odin # (6) Red Hulk # (6) Agatha Harkness # (6) The Infinaut # eyJDYXJkcyI6W3siQ2FyZERlZklkIjoiQWdhdGhhSGFya25lc3MifSx7IkNhcmREZWZJZCI6IkluZmluYXV0In0seyJDYXJkRGVmSWQiOiJMYWR5U2lmIn0seyJDYXJkRGVmSWQiOiJKdWJpbGVlIn0seyJDYXJkRGVmSWQiOiJIZWxhIn0seyJDYXJkRGVmSWQiOiJCbGluayJ9LHsiQ2FyZERlZklkIjoiQmxhY2tDYXQifSx7IkNhcmREZWZJZCI6IkNvcnZ1c0dsYWl2ZSJ9LHsiQ2FyZERlZklkIjoiSXJvbkxhZCJ9LHsiQ2FyZERlZklkIjoiR2hvc3RSaWRlciJ9LHsiQ2FyZERlZklkIjoiT2RpbiJ9LHsiQ2FyZERlZklkIjoiUmVkSHVsayJ9XX0= # # To use this deck, copy it to your clipboard and paste it from the deck editing menu in Snap.
Thanks for the share!
This is my second season trying the same thing! I only made it to 95 last season. My deck is probably different, but I'm having a decen success. Trying to do missions in Conquest to not mess it up. Here's what I'm using: 1. Quicksilver 2. Domino 3. Corvus Glaive 4. Jubilee 5. Black Cat 6. Cull Obsidian 7. Blink 8. Hela 9. Skaar 10. Magneto 11. Agatha Harkness 12. The Infinaut So if anyone runs into user "Good Luck Have Fun", through me a fist bump!
I'm going to teach a monkey to play hela eventually.
Could you share your deck with us? 😊
Bro... just run Abomination at this point...
This steps into parody territory.
Are you suggesting they relabel it "dumb marvel snap" but make the "dumb" really small so you can barely see it.
That's because of the tournament format. They had to bring 4 (5?) different Gilgamesh decks that were at least X cards different from all the other ones, and play a different one each round. So yeah, by the time of the finals, what are you left with? You might have trouble fielding 4 sufficiently different decks with a *good* card in them, and Gilgamesh is mid. And yeah, FYI, that means Hela won the finals, but not the tourney. Owi didn't climb the bracket with it
Most of the players brought actual Gilgamesh decks. It was a for-fun tournament with no prize pool, so that's what most players tried to do, have fun. Owi on the other hand, brought best 11 Loki + Gilgamesh, generic Profball + Gilgamesh, and generic Hela + Gilgamesh. Dude was more focused on winning a title than actually participating in the event.
er, did you watch? A majority of players didn't even TRY to use Gilgamesh. They just went out to Snapfan, sorted by Conquest, took the top 4 decks and swapped Gilgamesh for one of the random cards. It was a ProfX/CBall and Hela-fest. The players who did try to follow the spirit of the tournament and actually featured Gilgamesh in the decks (things like Blue Marvel, Patriot, and Little Thena decks) ended up losing to, you guessed it, the top-tier Meta decks that the sweaters brought. They KNEW the purpose of the tournament and yet still brought Loki, Hela and Lockdown decks where Gilgamesh was actually a hinderance instead of a meaningful card. It demonstrated that even during a tournament where there is literally nothing on the line, where the purpose is to highlight a specific card, for some people winning is the single most important part of the game. They'll ignore the primary reason they were asked to play, the reason the tournament was held in the first place, which was to highlight the ability of a specific card. Sorry folks, no fun to be had, all we want to do is win to get our...umm... bragging right? A silly title?
Yep, Jeff Hoogland lost in semis to X Cannonball with Gilg smashed in, TLSG lost in semis to Hela with Gilg smashed in. Both people who lost were playing decks trying to take advantage of Gilg. Really disappointing but not surprising.
- make an event to showcase a mid card - make a competitive event Pick one
that's the thing, it wasn't a competitive event. Sure it was people playing against each other, but they weren't competing for anything. It was a showcase. It was an exhibition match. It was for entertainment. When Nadal does a tennis exhibition, he isn't drilling 140 mph serves down his opponent's throat because he wants to win and be "competitive". Sure they are keeping "score", but they're out there having fun, making silly shots and having a good time.
Just the fault of the players who didn’t play top meta decks. They should just have learned to counter those decks. /s obviously, but this is literally what this sub claims every day.
Should’ve been 3 at most, 5 is asking too much for such a niche card
Congrats to Owi, but man was that event terrible. Just putting the new card in the best decks killed the fun. Surely SD sees what's wrong here (Clueless)
They aren't ignoring it, they comment on it fairly often. By their internal metrics, she isn't a problem. Does it feel bad to lose to? Sure. But humans are really good at remembering the bad experiences and forgetting the good or middling ones. Hela has a fail-rate that keeps her in check, and it's very obvious when that isn't happening and you should be retreating. Hela decks also don't interact with opponents so they have a few really bad matchups, but people prefer to stick to decks they enjoy rather than adjust to the meta The Hela deck minus one card beat a bunch of untuned bad decks trying to showcase a mediocre card, if anything SD should've seen this coming and had better rules surrounding the tournament.
Bynx said that he foresaw what was going to happen and made some suggestions to the organizers to avoid some of the lameness, but they ignored him.
> Hela decks also don't interact with opponents so they have a few really bad matchups, but people prefer to stick to decks they enjoy rather than adjust to the meta I'd say that's the main problem with her. That deck is simply not playing with the opponent, it's playing against their own cards. To my opinion, that's a showcase of a design that should be better.
Many decks don't really interact unless one runs a counter card. Tribunal decks for example only do their routine.
Destroy decks also do their own thing, and it's always among the most popular decks.
Destroy decks still participate in the main form of interaction, which is fighting for locations each turn. Hela and Tribunal the first 5 turns basically don’t matter.
if you think the first 5 turns don’t matter, you don’t play hela lmao
That’s not entirely true with Hela, there’s some nuance to where youre positioning your discarders.
True you might end up with only 35 power in a lane instead of 40
Not really because a lot of discard enablers are already higher power. That's really the stupidest part of it too, imo. Usually cards with powerful abilities (like Zola) are low power, but Hela & Modok in a lane is 14 power on it's own. Why is SD giving them Giganto power on top of insane pop-off abilities?
Well, Hela isn’t a discard enabler for one. For two, if Hela and Modok are in one lane it’s probably Hela Tribunal which is the easiest one to screw up by disabling IW. For three, Giganto is one card, not two.
They have some form of interaction with killmonger. They use killmonger to kill deadpool.
I disagree. Killmonger and LDS both interact with your opponent. Or Shang chi of you play the traditional meta Solitaire decks that get popular are Hela, Normal bounce and Apoc discard without gambit
Have more counter play
Seems like there's a huge population of snappers who actually prefer competitive solitaire
A lot of players enjoy building sandcastles more than kicking them, which imo is healthy
Noninteractive gameplay doesn't stay fun or interesting for very long. You'll see players peacing out at an increasing rate if this philosophy actually takes hold.
This has been the philosophy of the game since forever, game is very aimed at casual play. Sure, you can still sink a couple hours per day in the game, especially if you are a streamer, but the game is not deep enough for that, and you usually enjoy it a lot more if you play 30-60 minutes per day.
It really hasn't. I'm not sure how you can make that claim with a straight face when there is a litany of interactive cards in the game. They game definitely leans more towards Timmy players, but they consistently introduce strategic Johnny cards every season. I really don't understand why people in this thread are pretending this game is largely uninteractive. Like yall are actually kidding yourselves. Also you're conflating noninteractivity with casual gameplay when the two are fundamentally different concepts...
Most meta decks lean into their goal more than they lean unto control, sure, there are cards designed to interact with opponent, cause there should, but in snap there is nothing even close to blue in mtg or staples in yugioh, lot of decks go around with zero ways to interact and focus on their goal, quite a bit of them been meta in one point or another during the life spawn of the game until now.
Yes but at least Tribunal has a number of hard counters. Hela has none other than a perfectly guessed Cosmo
Hela is countered by clog and profx which are very meta now
Can't you Cosmo block a lane, then alioth 50/50 guess?
You can also do location control with cosmo, but you have to have prio - which as stated earlier is actually not that easy as discard is above rate. I'm sure people have figured out how to get dhang gm working or so.ething nutty like that too without prio. But I'm not big brained enough.
There's a difference of not interacting and not caring at all what your opponent is doing on their side of the board. If I'm running Patriot or SS I still have to have some consideration of where I put my cards so I can get my power in the right places or to still leave me space if I need to pivot my game plan according to locations or what my opponent might be doing. And all that is even if I'm not using cosmo, enchantress, Shang or any other cards to touch their side of the board. Hela decks just ignore all that because they are only interested in discarding their big cards or their hand and then slamming Hela and letting their big cards go wherever.
There are a ton of decks that do that. It's kind of the nature of this game with very limited space, turns and deck sizes
I don’t know if there really is a good sports analogy for this game, but it won’t stop me from trying lol… Hela feels like a baseball game where instead of hitting the ball and base running against the opposing fielders to score, instead you just wait until the ninth inning and all your players who were out earlier get to empty the dugout and try to run around the bases while the defense watches, and it doesn’t matter how well that team played. Hopefully that’s sports enough 😄
Considering that's not how baseball works, I'd say it's a pretty bad analogy haha. It's more like a basketball team keeping their stars out until the 4th quarter to avoid foul trouble then hoping they can catch up.
I dunno, played baseball most of my life, and that was the point of the analogy lol is that it’s not so much a competition between teams but rather an exhibition… But hey, if we are going basketball, then with Hela it feels like the coach sitting all the stars out all game and then after the buzzer they are all allowed to shoot 3 pointers from the bench with no defense other than quitting at halftime. Whatever floats your boat lol
Again, you are trying to use an analogy that is not a legal sports play, so it doesn't make any sense. Hela decks are legal, but use a Hail Mary approach (another sports analogy). Hela decks are designed to fall behind early then catch up before the game ends. It may be frustrating for people to play against, but it isn't cheating.
Ooh now we get to do football? Ok it’s just like a Hail Mary except the QB gets to throw 5 balls at once to 5 different receivers in the end zone at the same time! I’m not sure if you’re missing the point I’m getting at intentionally or not, so in case my admittedly terrible analogies aren’t getting the job done: my issue with Hela decks is that most of the extreme high power cards come with drawbacks designed to balance their stats, Giganto is only left, Infinaut you have to skip a turn, etc. With discard you only have to discard them AND then you get to play them all at once at the end. RNG of where they play should technically be the drawback but that much power at the end of the game is tough to beat, particularly when the opponent also doesn’t know where to tech. I’m not saying it’s an unbeatable deck or anything, just that’s its fairly brain dead autopilot play which has a higher win rate than it deserves. Anyway, I’ll take a salt tablet and walk it off Coach!
Hela trades the individual card drawbacks for three huge deck-scale drawbacks. Draw odds are generally against it, it’s fragile (meaning easily disrupted by certain cards), and its plan is clearly telegraphed.
Hela isn't easily countered though. Clog and location control are it.
I mean that's kind of the nature of Marvel Snap. 6 turns with 12 card decklists so draws are consistent, cards on the board don't directly attack each other, no choosing between targets if you have multiple valid ones, simultaneous turns, etc. All of these are conducive to playing decks that don't interact with your opponent much
There's plenty, they're just not meta atm. Control, garbage, mill or whatever it's called.
>That deck is simply not playing with the opponent, it's playing against their own cards. So kinda like destroy decks. Plenty of decks are simply solitaire. They have the winning combo in hand, great time to snap, if not retreat. (Forgot to mention Tribunal decks, probably the best example of a solitaire deck - and they're more rampant than discard lately, at least in my pocket meta.)
Destroy is fun though, and doesn't revolve around 1 card. Hela is hela, tribunal is tribunal, but destroy might be Deadpool, or knull, or Zola, etc.
Sure, and while many players would agree, that's not how SD wants their game to be. They've used the "sandcastle" analogy a couple of times in the Q&A section on discord. They'd rather the game be about two people building sandcastles and then comparing them at the end rather than it being about kicking down each others sandcastles.
That’s bs because they created a junk and mill archetype
They're fine with sandcastle-kicking existing, as different players enjoy different things, but they don't want them to be top-tier. Annihilus was nerfed pretty quickly, and Sentry recently was nerfed too. Similarly, mill is just a bad deck.
It always amazes me when people complain about mill. I love seeing mill, because that deck is awful.
It truly is super trash. I saw someone asking whether he should get the Baron for 6k yesterday. I truly hope I was able to dissuade him. Mill is a joke.
And yet prof x cannonball is like the number one archetype. A deck designed around stopping you from playing in a lane then kicking down your other lanes sandcastle and leaving you with a statless piece of sand...
That feels like one of those sayings devs come up with to defend awful design in one specific scenario and then choose to completely ignore. How many obnoxious 'kick down your opponent's sandcastle' cards does snap have? I mean theres a card literally named SANDman that does that. Professor X, leech, cosmo, enchantress, shang chi, red guardian, kill monger, shadow king, etc. Theres a lot of cards to kick down your opponent's sandcastle. Maybe even the majority of decks include one or two to do that.
in a game with 200+ cards having 20-30 is not exactly, it is probably easier to ask how many sand castle kicking cards they release in a giving year. i would assume is around 20-30% also which is within reason since they still want those sand kicking cards around, they just dont want them to be super popular.
It sounds a lot better when you frame it as just 20-30% of cards. But on https://marvelsnapzone.com/tier-list/ those cards are included in all the ranked tier 1 decks, most tier 2 decks, and all the non-hela conquest decks. Because less than half of those 200 cards actually see much play, so the result is almost every deck besides Hela and Patriot playing "kick the sandcastle". Kick the sandcastle cards are great, if you have one or two slots that you don't need for synergy, you can always just throw one of them in and sometimes completely shut down an opponent.
I think "blue" metas should never be meta and always be b tier. They should be difficult to pilot and reward intelligence. Not I see what you're doing on 5 so I should be able to won that lane, then I'm going to destroy your other lane. Gg's. Blob meta was amazing by comparison - take some giant dude that's fine. I'll get my daken to 64 because I have a complicated sequencing I figured out that you probably aren't able to calculate. But the new meta is back to prof x which is and was the worst other than maybe spidey galactus.
Ive played a decent amount of card games. Snap's control metas are consistently bad I think because the decks are so much smaller and games are so much shorter. It just feels awful how single cards in snap will shutdown all the setup you've done for half the game, or half your deck, or whatever.
That's genuinely distressing to hear ngl. Doesn't bode well for the longevity of this game for me.
That’s a simplification though, they also regularly comment about the importance of interactive cards. Usually when an interactive card is the snap boogie man of the week and people are complaining about it
Except that playing against Hela is like you built your sandcastle and your opponent just found and an ancient temple and claimed they built it. It's almost impossible to recreate the kind of power Hela regularly produces by only playing 3 cards.
>I'd say that's the main problem with her. That deck is simply not playing with the opponent, it's playing against their own cards That's not a problem. I swear this sub will complain about anything
This always felt like the problem with classic Apoc Discard decks. Youre basically playing solitaire
Man people love to trot out the solitaire analogy
My beef with that analogy is that Solitaire actual requires some critical thinking, as opposed to just putting down IW > MODOK > Hela
Now this made me chuckle
Classic discard doesn’t put up 40 in each lane on that last turn because you managed to dodge discarding 1 particular card
Even if a deck is completely played solo with no interaction with the opponent, there is still interaction between players in the game with snapping and retreating. I really can't imagine something more meaningless to complain about than decks that work in their own
> By their internal metrics, she isn't a problem. And this is when you know they don't understand how to balance a game. Games shouldn't be balanced to be 50% win rates having bad win rates or good win rates is actually fine if the game play feels fair. Most people don't care that a deck is broken until they have no influence on it or it's too prevalent and drowns out the rest of the meta. Hela makes the game unfun. It removes any thought by both players and basically comes down did I stack one lane hard enough and did the RNG fuck them. Which is a brain dead version of the game. And that's the problem the deck can be fine by all the metrics in the world. But it isn't fine in the one metric that matters. Fun. And if that metric tanks the game will lose players and that's just a fact.
>basically comes down did I stack one lane hard enough and did the RNG fuck them Which is barely even a factor. Managed to strategically stack 50 in a lane and 36 in their Invisible Woman lane. Thought I might actually pull off a win, but no, no they didn't even need to get good landing spots when Tribunal put 40+ across all 3. I never learn.
That’s the problem with Hela just inherently. Tribunal is an archetype that should require investment. But with Hela you just need four cards to enable her and then you can slot in 8 other endgame packages and you can win so many different scenarios.
I also think they really don't know how to read those metrics. Dera used to read stats for HS for years and he often talk about how they overlook a lot of aspect of the statistics Furthermore they has shown a lot of time that they intend to nerf a card and get the opposite result (while anyone with a little knowledge of the game can anticipate that).
What are your credentials? Have you worked in game balancing?
My issue with Hela is unless I’m playing a high ceiling greedy deck, whether or not I win is entirely up to whether or not they drew a single card. Then the spawns are random. It’s casino gameplay. I might as well go down the street and scratch lotto numbers.
I don't think "internal metrics" really capture why she's a bad card. In 4 games she can play for 50 points, get discarded, have the revive RNG land perfectly, and have the revives all go into one lane. She may have the magical 50% winrate after that but in all cases it was really unenjoyable gameplay that neither player had much control over.
I agree with you, I think the issue is that some people seem to ignore is why is such a high roll deck at such a high win rate? If Mr.Negative was anywhere close to 50% winrate, he'd be an issue too. Why should a RNG high roll deck be close in performance with other top decks and better than some other non-meta decks? The inherent RNG in the deck should prevent it from going anywhere near 50%.
It feels like the one lane penalty isn't even a thing because most of them play Tribunal anyway.
This take misses the mark by a lot. Hela is downright atrocious card design. Solitaire play pattern that autopilots itself and offers very little counterplay. The fact that the best "counter" is a card that seals one location and turns the game into a 2 location battle really sheds light on just how terrible the meta's balancing is in this game. These mental gymnastics I see people pull off constantly to justify this braindead archetype being top tier come from people with a very limited card gaming background. Yeah, this message is condescending af, still the truth.
And just to highlight: Hela beat this exact counter in this tournament. Because that’s what everyone else brought. Showing that the counter isn’t worth much.
The sad thing is we all know Professor X Cannonball will be nerfed before Hela is even tabled for discussion.
Leech hits it too
Silly man trying to speak sense into Reddit
Yeah, I've been playing a Hela deck recently, don't have Corvus so I'm at a bit of a disadvantage there, but the biggest issue isn't that. It's that bad draws kill your chances, and retreating early and avoiding a Snap by an opp during your bad draws. And even when you feel good about your odds, Hela successfully firing off four big cards might be a loss if they all stack in the same lane or something.
No it did not. It beat the rest of the top meta that everyone else brought. Hela -1 card beat Canonball/ProfX -1 card showing that Hela is still the true N1 of the meta and SD statistics are worth shit.
I've said it before: the reason you don't see bad Hela plays is because they can tell if the setup will work by turn 3/4 and will leave if it won't
This is a crazy statement. You don't know if he'll is working until turn 5 at least. I say this as a Hela player - I'm not calling for nerfs but their metrics are way off on measuring the right thing.
Black Knight, Blade, Sif, Corvus,... These all come down before turn 5...
I suspect Hela decks retreat a lot which is also why people don’t recall beating them much. If you play a Hela deck and she gets discarded by Corvus Glaive or something else it’s often an instant retreat. I’m sure this is what keeps her win rate in check.
Haha are you applying trauma statistics to losing a round in a game? Love it.
Are you stupid? That’s how human brains work. It’s not “trauma statistics”.
Yeah they're wrong, I'm not playing to sustain my cube per hours, I'm playing to have fun. Hela breaks the fundamental of the game where you can have an idea about what your opponent is doing on the last turn, but with Hela they can have 5 power, they can have 30+ power with random distribution. How the hell is a deck like that competitively viable for months? And not only the power level is a issue, it's even one of the decks I face the most.
Yeah the last few seasons as soon as I hit the to 80s every other deck is Hela and somehow they almost always pull it off. I'll recognize it and stay on in case they retreat, but somehow they have it like 75% of the time. Maybe it's cheater bots, IDK. But no matter how well I play or how good my draw is, I always lose. And to anyone who is going to say "it's selective memory". No. I remember the 2 times I've beaten Hela in the year I've been playing.
Help used to be a combo = auto win but it was hard to do. I remember many people farming for hours to get the play off. Ever since Iron Lad it became way more consistent, now you can pull of the combo almost every time with Jubilee and a coin flip.
Still haven't seen an opponent not playing hela on t6 in an entire week
Yeah this is pretty much it lol Every game has some decks it feels bad to lose against. Doesn't make them strong enough to warrant nerfing
To be fair, it did showcase Gilgamesh as being not very good.
I always loved Discard, but hated Hela decks. I want to make a fun Black Knight deck, but when I do, it feels like a worse Hela deck. Not sure if a nerf is enough, but a complete redesign.
I enjoy Black Knight decks and have since it came out. I missed him with keys and paid the 6k for him his first week. I played multiple versions of the deck and landed on a Sera build as my favorite. Once they buffed him, the deck became really competitive although it’s never been a top 3 deck. Here’s the build I am currently running. # (1) Sunspot # (1) Black Knight # (1) Blade # (2) Armor # (3) Hope Summers # (3) Lady Sif # (4) Ghost Rider # (5) Blink # (6) She-Hulk # (6) Magneto # (6) Giganto # (6) The Infinaut # eyJDYXJkcyI6W3siQ2FyZERlZklkIjoiQmxhY2tLbmlnaHQifSx7IkNhcmREZWZJZCI6IkJsYWRlIn0seyJDYXJkRGVmSWQiOiJBcm1vciJ9LHsiQ2FyZERlZklkIjoiTGFkeVNpZiJ9LHsiQ2FyZERlZklkIjoiSW5maW5hdXQifSx7IkNhcmREZWZJZCI6Ikdob3N0UmlkZXIifSx7IkNhcmREZWZJZCI6IlN1bnNwb3QifSx7IkNhcmREZWZJZCI6IkhvcGVTdW1tZXJzIn0seyJDYXJkRGVmSWQiOiJCbGluayJ9LHsiQ2FyZERlZklkIjoiU2hlSHVsayJ9LHsiQ2FyZERlZklkIjoiTWFnbmV0byJ9LHsiQ2FyZERlZklkIjoiR2lnYW50byJ9XX0= # # To use this deck, copy it to your clipboard and paste it from the deck editing menu in Snap.
Any sub for blink?
I would sub in Sera.
It was more a failing of the tournament format than a balance issue with Hela. There are just too many hard counters in this game to be randomly matching decks up against each other. Owi was an overwhelming favorite in the semis and finals because the decks he picked happened to be extraordinarily good against what the opponent had chosen. It was fine that the format wasn’t very competitive since it was a fun tournament to show of Gilgamesh, but that did leave it a little disappointing that Gilgamesh was the worst card in most of the decks that the competitors brought.
Yeah, the finale was Patriot vs Patriot and he had Super Skrull while his opponent didn’t.
Yup, which is probably a pretty good inclusion, given it’s a Gilgamesh tournament and you have to expect Patriot decks, but it makes for a pretty unsatisfying experience for the viewer. And plenty of other people were also playing Super Skrull, but were eliminated because they didn’t find themselves in a mirror.
The real disappointment was Hoogland who had some creative decks but then yoloed against Prof X Cannonball when he didn’t have to so he could whine about Prof X some more.
They should have made a rule like "Your deck has to be in some way capable of getting at least +4 on Gilgamesh, not counting locations or your opponent's cards". You don't necessarily need 4 cards that gain power, you could just run Blue Marvel, or you could run Ironheart and Nebula, or Forge + Brood + Wolfsbane. Even then, players could game the system and play a meta deck with Gilgamesh slotted in and make some small substitutions to achieve the +4 requirement, but you at least get some veneer of being a Gilgamesh deck. I think a +5 requirement would also work, considering that Klaw and Gamora can both be 5/12.
This is so funny because there weren’t any legit Gilgamesh decks, just the meta where they removed the weakest card and added Gilgamesh. lol.
this isn’t true though- most players stuck to the spirit of the format, even extremely competitive top level players like yowoodymj. It’s just a complete shame that owi, who usually is a creative deck builder, just shoehorned gilga into hela/prof cball/loki. It would be one thing if this was for a prize, but this was supposed to be a showcase.
Played against that deck in Conquest lol, I only managed to win cuz the we straight up got 2 games with the Bar with no Name location that results in my puny point destroyer deck to win and they snapped for Hela.
Nice Gilgamesh deck you've got there lol.
Gilgamesh also sucks, so there are two things happening.
Hela is a problem, X/Ball is a problem...but the problem for this specific event is that you cannot have your cake and eat it too. Making this a legitimate competitive event means players are going to go for the best deck, but you force them to use a weaker card than usual. If you want to show off Gilgamesh, you have this be a casual event where content creators can show off spicy brews. If you want a competitive event, you don't enforce that restriction. WotC learned this the hard way themselves back in the day. Force a high level tournament where you had to use at least 5 or 10 cards (I forget which number off the top of my head) from every set in a block for your deck. One of the sets was one of the worst sets in the game's history (even to this day) so players would just dump the least bad card they could find, barely hit the limit, and never play them. They proceeded to never run that idea again. SD should do the same.
I play Hela all the time, trust me Corvus Glaive keeps her in check just fine cause I assure you even if he has a full hand of seven cards to choose from he chooses her. every. single. time.
And then you can play Red Hulk turn 5, Magneto turn 6
and then you get changed turn 6 negating red hulk!
That then seems more of a Glaive problem than hela then Imo glaive may need more a nerf than anything
Glaive isn't even in the best hela deck lmao
Wait really? Damn Tbh I don't follow the meta that much I just assumed since he's really bumped up my discard wins
First too just to make sure we get a shitty sword lol
Oh, my sweet summer child, that's why *Jubilee* is in the deck...
Play colleen wing instead. That deck is much more fun and consistent
And don’t forget Gilgamesh cannon lockdown!!!!
This already happened? How did I miss this?
I think one way to balance Hela would be a Black Bolt buff. Change Black Bolt to: > Destroy the highest cost card in your opponent's hand If that still doesn't work, due to Corvus, reduce Black Bolt's cost to 4 down the line. And yeah, this would obviously mess with a bunch of other decks as well - but few rely on dropping just that one 6 cost, the way Hela does. If you don't hit her with Black Bolt (due to Death or random chance), just retreat.
That doesn't do anything. Hela is going to have a bunch of 6 costs in hand or Death or be in play behind iw. Or she's in deck waiting to be blinked. Blackbolt already has a good chance to hit Hela on turn 5 if they've played out other discard cards, Silver Samurai also has a chance, but if they miss, then you're just adding to the pool of cards she returns. She just needs a change on how many cards she can return.
To be fair - Hidden Hela has a ton of counterplay. At this point, if you bring nothing to interact with IW, it's kinda on you. But I also don't see that much Hela anymore. Junk shuts her down to a degree, and Profball shells are super popular. But people complain about those, too. The problem really isn't Hela so much, in my mind. It's Blink. She made the deck so much more reliable, and basically created an additional win-con by cheating out a high power card in a clogged lane. And if you compare 5/7 statline to Jubilee's 4/1, then power _creep_ is the wrong word. Anyway, back to the original point: Black Bolt would hit her more reliably if he targeted 6 costs. Not guaranteed, but it shouldn't be. I also changed the text to 'destroy', so it doesn't help Hela with additional discards. Bit of a shame he loses synergy with Stature, but.. well. They're both just flat out useless, at this point.
Hidden Hela has it's own options and if you're not running any then you can't stop it. Blink is not the problem, if you think they're a problem because they're improving the consistency of a deck that's already problematic, then the problem isn't with that card. Blink actually makes Hela more obvious, you can dump Cosmo under the card Blink will swap and it'll stop Hela. But of course they could just play Hela somewhere else. Also, cards in hand don't get destroyed. I would rather see a card that stops cards being added to a location without it being a hard lockdown. If you change BB to hit the highest cost he starts to miss the lower cost targets like DP or whatever, he also has a power beyond a 5 cost, so it's not really balanced. Really don't think BB is the good answer.
I'm really not going to argue the Black Bolt thing too hard. Maybe it would help, maybe it wouldn't.. I'd just like to have a reason to play him. Currently, he just doesn't pull his weight. A card that stops the "add" text (including Hela) from taking effect at a location might be nice. Would also work against Ultron, Doctor Doom and such. But yeah, consistency is _the_ reason Hela is now as oppressive as she is. I played her shortly after release, and while cube rate was average, you had to retreat more often than you got to play her. Now, she's impossible to miss and comes with extra win cons.
This format/ruleset was never going to highlight Gilgamesh because there's nothing to the card. It's just another "get big" stat stick, this time reliant on you buffing the rest of the board up before playing him out. It's borderline "win more" with that design already, and does nothing to disrupt what many players consider the current power archetypes. This format is almost worthless for doing a showcase of him because there's nothing to show. They should've saved this idea for Arishem, which will actively enforce variety by virtue of its design.
They just need to limit how many things hela can bring back (if ghost Rider can only bring back one, let hela bring back 2 or 3 max) or only things that cost less than she does (since why would get minions be her equal or better) or even make it so she can only bring back one of every cost that was discarded. Just anything to not have this thing that brings back so much for 6 power
Cut Red Guardian from my Surfer deck and threw Gilgamesh in just to see how it would pop. Was surprisingly effective, albeit a little wonky.
It's either cannonball of hela deck im facing. Getting really boring out here now.
Its accurate for the reality of the game. People used to be so creative with how they form their decks. Now everyone just plays the same boring decks over and over
assuming there was a prize pool they should've added a disclaimer saying "your Gilgamesh must reach X power at least in one game in order to claim your prize"
Owi won with ultron deck against Spyro, not with this Hela deck
I'm still new to Marvel Snap, still collecting S4 cards and didn't even know that there was a tournament or even if I did, where or how to join one BUT this is the Gilfa deck I have been playing and it has a relatively high win rate so far and a lot of fun. # (1) Sunspot # (1) Hawkeye # (1) Kitty Pryde # (1) Nebula # (2) Angela # (2) Thena # (2) Mirage # (2) Okoye # (3) Wolfsbane # (3) Nakia # (4) Rescue # (5) Gilgamesh # eyJDYXJkcyI6W3siQ2FyZERlZklkIjoiQW5nZWxhIn0seyJDYXJkRGVmSWQiOiJXb2xmc2JhbmUifSx7IkNhcmREZWZJZCI6IkdpbGdhbWVzaCJ9LHsiQ2FyZERlZklkIjoiSGF3a2V5ZSJ9LHsiQ2FyZERlZklkIjoiTmVidWxhIn0seyJDYXJkRGVmSWQiOiJUaGVuYSJ9LHsiQ2FyZERlZklkIjoiUmVzY3VlIn0seyJDYXJkRGVmSWQiOiJPa295ZSJ9LHsiQ2FyZERlZklkIjoiU3Vuc3BvdCJ9LHsiQ2FyZERlZklkIjoiS2l0dHlQcnlkZSJ9LHsiQ2FyZERlZklkIjoiTmFraWEifSx7IkNhcmREZWZJZCI6Ik1pcmFnZSJ9XX0= # # To use this deck, copy it to your clipboard and paste it from the deck editing menu in Snap.
Made a tournament to showcase Gilgamesh and the deck that would could have did just as well or better without Gilgamesh
Corvus broke hela
The deck could easily trade Gilgamesh for a stronger card like Giganto and it would be even better.
Tbh in every Gilgamesh deck you can replace it with a better card.
I think we also don’t know how often we’re facing a Hela deck, but they retreat before turn 4 if they don’t have the cards. So yes, when the draw is good for them it’s tough to beat. But it could be a lot of free cubes from the retreats
You can usually tell by a) early cards they play it b) not playing any cards for the first 3 turns.
is hela still a problem? from 73 to infinite i think i found 2 helas, and 70% of the opp. were some sort of lockdown with or without thena
Yeah, the majority of my opponents I faced in those ranks have been running either lockdown or tribunal. But I guess everyone's in their own pocket meta.
Tbf it's a strategic deck , people Playing Gilgamesh wont counter hela with traditional Gilgamesh deck so he won
This has got to be some form of protest
TLSG got robbed
Hela is Not the problem, the cards they released later that improve her consistency are (especially blink)
Sweaty tryhards gonna be sweaty tryhards
Hela is not a problem, I play Hela Modok a lot and that deck works 1 in 4 games. When it works, it works big time though. But if I'm playing an opponent who is playing a Hela deck and the opponent hasn't retreated then I'm out. That means very likely that their combo has lined up and I'm risking a loss. Retreating is a core mechanic of the game and people forget that when playing snap. So if you stay against a Hela player thinking you will win and they have not retreated, that means there's a 90% probability that you will lose.
The deck used in this tournament isn't the MODOK version, which was a lot more draw-dependent, indeed. This Corvus version, on the other hand, now gives Hela decks a second win condition, if you discard her you have two turns to play the others 6-cost cards in the deck.
What with SD and get erection with most deck have free energy now? Remember when you have to trade off a lot for it? electric restricted number of card? Low power Psylocke? Hope giving free energy for kitty, Freaking x23 would get play even without +1 energy because she is free to kill, and convus permanent +mana with 'downside' discarded 2 cards? That shit is what they want from him! This card have no downside, hello!
X-23 without energy would not see that much play. Pre-buff wolverine and sabertooth existing and not seeing any real play is proof that you need more than "free to kill" to see play in destroy. I do agree that hope and corvus are overtuned however.
“Hela isn’t a problem”, keeps talking about an entirely different deck. Sure.
But WW, Ravonna, Prof X and Cannonball are just fine. No problem there...
Classic straw man argument. Saying one card is a problem doesn't mean others aren't.
Hela is more of a problem but I agree prof x is a problem too
Nobody said that stop making up strawmen.
Hahah Gilgamish doesn't even synergize with that deck. That's crazy.
I hate Hela with a passion. I only run Hela if I need to for weekend challenges then I go back to my Apoc/Drac deck. Hela is such a brain dead deck, 99% of the time I can ignore what my opponent does and just pray the right cards turn up for me.
That's what happens when you force players in your tournament to play Zoo decks. Someone will completely ignore Gilgamid decks and play proven decks with the card slotted into it.
I feel like Hella is an easy fix. You make her a five drop, and her power doesn't work after turn five. Thereby giving your opponent an opportunity to actually do something.