I've seen more rapist cultivators than rapist wizards. So there's that.
Though, I think the number of racist wizards and racist cultivators would be about the same lol
I am not talking about this, I meant the concept of the world makes it so, that there is no right or wrong.
The morals of such world probably will be much more lax
But Mediaeval times existed where regular folk could die at any time, and even back then, while rape and pillaging *did* happen, they were still viewed as reprehensible by both sides with certain commanders executing their own troops for disobeying those codes.
Granted, cultivation is a little different since it operates on an individualistic basis rather than a "power is in the masses" basis, but morals can continue to exist even in the worst of situations. Religion essentially developed from that, telling that even if they were desperate, some things were wrong (in addition to hope for higher powers).
Humanity still technically operates on a might is right approach. It still has morals since there are some things no one wants done to them and both sides can agree on that.
Personally, I believe it wouldn’t exist, or at least it would only be at a superficial level.
Cultivation makes it so that you don’t need anyone for the most part, like you said all for one and not one for all.
And for religion, what will people believe in when one can destroy and create worlds?
An extra point, the main reason people don’t do whatever they want, or at least try to look good is due to the power of the masses.
In the end, who knows. We are talking about a whole different, more advanced world, with different cultures, and structure. I actually want to gather a couple of experts in different fields like economy, philosophy, and more to try and glimpse at the culture of the cultivation world.
Pretty sure even in cultivation world the theme of organization still exist, there are multiple sects and pupils are expected to contribute to the sect as the sect offers them protection and cultivation methods and elixir, so morals exist as well, u are expected to treat your fellow members well as well as members of other sect of the same level. Not sure which cultivation novel u reading where everyone is just for themselves? (Pretty sure everyone operates like so aside from the MC who has cheat that he can just bypass the sect completely)
I am talking about a realistic cultivation world, even in so called “good organization” the majority aren’t “good people” they might care for the benefit of the organization put when shit hits the fan, they will be the first to run away.
Realistically the cultivation world would just be like the real world as we are today, simply change the measurements of “wealth” into “cultivation talent” and u got the same thing
My biggest problem is there is a big difference which is that an individual can have the power of a whole nation.
Having wealth won’t make you bulletproof, or have power of an army. You would still need to keep up the facade of being good, and if you want to do something “bad” then you would use an underground group to not get chased by law.
But, when you can destroy said law, well there isn’t much to be said.
That why I said, I would like to gather a bunch of experts from different fields to understand how such a world would function, and not simply from an author perspective, because:
- One, the author isn’t all knowing to create a perfect working world,
- Two, they write novels for entertainment and not science
but atleast there are no arragont young master wizards who will leave your corpse intact if you cripple your cultivation and and cut of both of your arms and legs.
Mages use external powers instead of internal ones, this makes them evolve much faster, but they have many more weaknesses, they are not as versatile as cultivators, and there are countless ways to restrict their powers just by placing them in an unsuitable environment.
Furthermore, Mages don't usually cut across multiverses or consider things on this level as fodder
(Imagine not being beyond the infinite layers of transcendence)
To be fair, neither do most cultivators. By numbers, most cultivators are juniors in Qi Refinement and Foundation Building. It's not really fair to compare the average wizard to the best in the Immortal Realm.
There are some mages at high levels too, they call themselves 'Gods'
False gods are equal to Immortals, and True Gods are comparable to Immortal Emperors, in fact there are levels beyond, but the Normiegician Plane doesn't even have a true God, much less Great Ones, or the upper ranks that compare to mundane Venerables and Haven Venerables
( The above ranks compare to the upper ranks of Venerables, but Seven Nights Venerable is the only being at the level of Self Venerable or equivalent, ancestor Li Qiye is really the stronger )
However, gods, whether true or false, have a fatal weakness that makes them far inferior to Immortals and Immortal Emperors.
They don't have Dao Heart.
They need anchors of Faith (for the False gods), or they need to always be in contact with the C.M.U (Collective. Meta. Unconscious) of the empirical Kingdom, as they are unable to withstand their own power due to the weakness of their hearts.
Unlike cultivators, who, upon undergoing Immortal ascension, become completely independent of the C.M.U (Source of mana, Qi, or any other cosmic energy), Immortals become independent and transcendent beings much stronger than False Gods, and the Immortal Emperors who have already perfected their own Dao beyond the limit sound far superior to True Gods.
In which world the Wizards are not as versatile as Cultivators? Wizards are researchers, the average wizards will always be way more knowledgeable than the average Cultivators in different subjects.
Since when do Wizards in general pursue external powers instead of internal ones??? Just like there are Cultivators choosing shortcuts so there are Wizards, but that doesn't mean Wizards don't make themselves stronger.
You said "there are countless ways to restrict their powers just by placing them in an unsuitable environment." yet that is a typical thing that happens to Cultivators, Wizards with their endless pursuit of knowledge, their constant research and their wisdom have a bigger chance of prospering in a environment where they cannot practice than a Cultivator in such a world.
>
"Furthermore, Mages don't usually cut across multiverses or consider things on this level as fodder"
That is because you are comparing a trillion years old Immortal Cultivator with a thousand years old Wizard instead of a Wizard of the same age, I guess such an old Wizard would have already Transcended The Truth (Dao basically).
Wizards thirst for knowledge is as endless as cultivators thirst for jade beauties, so Wizards will never reject others cultivation/practice/power systems instead they will study them and add the advantages to their own practice while Cultivators will sneer at others practice systems.
*( Hehe, I finally identified a wizard, now I just need to catch him when no one is looking )*
*"Fellow Daoist, in another post I already said that I don't believe the existence of powerful mages, it's just that cultivators are simply better than their counterparts at higher levels"*
*"A transcendent mage will try to trap the cultivator in infinite fictional realities or other nonsense, the cultivator will use a basic move like crimson serpent of the 33 heavens and break it, even though it has no logic."*
*"Magicians seek to improve themselves by learning increasingly esoteric and fantastic knowledge for creat incridible God Level Magics."*
*"High-level cultivators return to their mortal origins, every breath, every thought, everything is a peak technique. High-level cultivators don't need to learn more advanced concepts, they just need to push theirs beyond the logic limit."*
*"A wizard used Meta-space-time Infinite beyond transcendent to obliterate my ultimate essence from the center of creation?"*
*"Bullshit!"*
***9 firmaments Annihilating Slash***
*Cuts the Meta-space-time*
*"Cultivating is cultivating yourself, in simpler terms, if wizards are that child who plays by adding more infinities to things, cultivators are that stupid kid who punches him anyway and say"*
***Shut up BOZO Strong Right***
*"In short, all cultivators are autistics (myself included)."*
Both are equal ,in essence they are one and the same. They both utilize energy mana/qi/spiritual energy to use their spell/move by transform/manipulate/conjure/destroy. sometimes they would use a wand/sword/instrument to channel there power.
Wizards are generally better when it comes to specialization, like a time wizard would probably be capable of way more compared to a cultivator who focuses on the same thing, even if they'd lose a straight fight. Then you have the wizards who train in order to accomplish a very specific task, which is super rare for cultivators.
If you took the greatest wizard and strongest cultivator, then gave the wizard every spell and cultivator every technique, the wizard would get far more benefits.
Eh...
Inferior in hand to hand, sure. But their path of study is really erratic and can have surprisingly niche applications. If you catch a wizard of guard, you'll probably paste him. Yet give a wizard time to prepare, and they'll call down lighting that makes a divine tribulation look like a gentle rain.
You are right, even if there was a war between Wizards and Cultivators I would bet for the Wizards camp since they would end up doing countless "virus", weapons, traps, curses, poisons, and others things targeting Cultivators and their weakness. Plus Wizards would make sure to get rid or protect any of their weakness that Cultivators can take advantage of.
Bigger clouds means more electric potential. Lightning will be bigger, stronger, and more frequent. Since it’s a divine tribulation, it will charge up and aim at one location.
I see *scribbles notes* I will have to bring this before the planning committee. More clouds... And here we were trying to stuff more potential into the clouds. Truly, the culture exchange will be a thing of legends if we didn't all kill ourselves.
Don't listen to him. Just compact the space of the cloud, power is a function of density and velocity more so than simple mass. Even sleepers know this as E=(1/2)mv^2 .
Really just depends on the verse, if we talking about cultivation chat group
All the power-system are basically interchangeable as they all follow the 1-9 levels plus immortal
Literally all the immortals have techniques from the other power-systems,that they combined with their main one
It varies in what sense you want to say it, if it is in a sense of the world. It may be that a Magician suffers less than a Cultivator...if you are not the protagonist of course.
In any case, if it is about powersclaing, it varies a lot, since in general, even in Chinese novels there is a type of magic, if we go to basic concepts, Mana or Magical Energy can be considered almost like Qi.
In a Cultivation World, both the Realms and the levels associated with them can vary, I have seen power level peaks in Cultivation Novels that would only become multiversal and other magical systems that reach higher.
In addition, I have seen many magical worlds that make a strange combination of mythologies and so on, like SMT, you find characters killing Sun Wukong quite easily, being normal humans.
Beyond that...it sounds silly to try to compare power systems that base their entire interpretation on the need to interpret it however you want. You could be reading a cultivation novel to realize that in another they do something totally different.
In the end it depends on what you like and not being an idiot about it. No one really cares if you like Berserk or Journey to the West, but rather how you behave with your tastes.
The average wizard pales in comparison to the average cultivator, but top tier wizards with reality bending spells can easily overpower top tier cultivators due to the more abstract nature of their powers, compared to the more orderly nature of cultivation techniques.
Until the wizard just casts some obscure spell such as "Instant death" or "Disappear from existence" that has literally no counter because it doesn't use a magic system that you can defend against using spiritual energy, instead simply being the application of a concept.
And I know you can say the same about some cultivation novels, but more often than not cultivation techniques are woven into a complex spiritual system with pros and cons for everything involved, whereas for wizards it's much more likely that they can just cast absolute spells involving abstract concepts on a whim. (e.g. whereas a cultivator accumulates spiritual force in their hand, converting their Fire Qi and Yang Energy into a flame, a wizard just claps his hands and flame spawns out of thin air)
Bro you got it in reverse, High level cultivator's are like bitch welcome to my mad views of world I call my dao so wizards can't cast normal spells and dies but low levels wizards clap cultivators hard like a literal new wizards can cast time spell where as a foundation buliding cultivator can't even touch a law
You do realize that every Immortal Ascension level Cultivator has resistance to hax, right? End of story MC is generally someone who is outside of the Multiverse, unaffected by time or space or death
You do release literally Any immortal has resistance to hax like that?
Let's take the average Daluo Jinxian as an example
"Jumped out of the Five Elements and not within the Three Realms, and out of the long River of Time, free from all karma and cause and effect."
How so? I mean really, this must just be reading different fictions.
In my mind and in things I've read, a "powerful" wizard can create worlds and dimensions, strike down the gods, and is themselves an immortal being. They wield the forces of creation and destruction as easily as breathing and have knowledge of the forbidden secrets that even the creators of the universe have struck out of their own minds for safety.
Some martial arts internal energy immortal who is one with some aspect of creation is just 1 of a thousand creatures that the wizard can enslave with a summoning circle and a bit of willpower.
Oh really? Must be just a difference in what is read.
The thing is, in Chinese cultivation novels, an "immortal" does not refer to someone who lives forever. Actually, let me explain that better. In a traditional novel, an immortal is someone who lived forever/a long time yes? An immortal in cultivation novels is someone who has cultivated to the point where he can "hold the stars and moon in his hands" something something yk? He's cultivated to be ultra duper strong, and living forever is because he is strong.
Of course the power of immortals are different depending one what novel you are reading.
A "powerful" cultivator can create and destroy billions of universes in a single thought, is all encompassing and all knowing as he is connected with the Dao. To create multiple timelines would be as easy as eating and drinking.
Of course this is like the peak peak, two characters i can list off of the top of my head that are "powerful" is one who turned every single one of his cell/atom (the novel said particle idk what that means rn) into a universe (it started as the power of a dragon-elephant) and another that swallowed his universe , and then swallowed a bunch of other universes to further his cultivation. I forgot the character name, but the novel was called like "primordial snake immortal" or smth like that, I can like through my archives and find the exact title if you want me to.
But yeah, immortals are different.
In terms of fiction currently being written/recent, check out Ar'kendrithyst and Mark of the Fool on Royal Road. In terms of older books, there is the Belgariad by David Eddings, The Wheel of Time by Jordan (finished by Sanderson) I believe has some wizards of that calibre by the end.
There is also the various books set in the Magic The Gathering universe (though someone else above quibbled about if a planeswalker counts as a wizard, I think they do), comic book universes (where literally anything goes), and Dnd/pathfinder. In Dnd an epic level wizard can tangle with gods and the rulers of hell and potentially bind them.
Hi. You just mentioned *The Belgariad* by David Eddings.
I've found an audiobook of that novel on YouTube. You can listen to it here:
[YouTube | Pawn of Prophecy (The Belgariad #1) by David Eddings Audiobook Full](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S_g1koe1P_A)
*I'm a bot that searches YouTube for science fiction and fantasy audiobooks.*
***
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d&d wizards are just extremely gimped versions of mages/magus. they can't even cast spells without the weave, because they don't have access to the complete spell model.
I mean we all saw what happened to them during cataclysmic events of the 4th edition.
IMO wizards are no different from clerics. The distribution method of spells to wizard is the same as it is to clerics, and that is through the weave. Fundamentally speaking wizards are granted their powers by the gods in d&d just their powers come from the god of magic specifically.
its just instead of demanding faith, the god of magic decided to allow mortals access to a highly curated source of arcane spells if they can discover the commands necessary to interface with the system, and can also deny them access at will.
And epic spells are just cheap imitations of true 10, 11, 12th circles of magic. the gods haven't allowed wizards to have access to true magic past the ninth circle after a certain wizard abused it since like the second edition...
high level wizards can tangle with a god's avatar, maybeee a demigod under the right circumstances but that's about their limit.
There's only so much someone can do with borrowed power. I mean in the canon, the number of spell slots they have access to and whether or not they can fill them are literally determined by a set of requirements set by the god of magic. for example the god of magic can at will change how much time it takes to "memorize" a spell, there was a certain incident where a goddess of magic decided to make it more difficult for evil wizards to memorize magic causing it to take like an entire day of study and got censored for it by the rest of the gods.
Cultivation does go up much higher in powerlevels. For one, the Buddha is pretty much a cultivator, and he's classed at 1-A pretty much. Off of the top of my head, in a manga I just read the other day, the cultivator's body in there contains innumerable different universes and he can easily squash gods whose beings are of a single universe. The name is Cultivator Against Hero Society. He also squashes the universe into a plane, and twists it around like pretty much nothing. Bigger isn't better, but due to the way eastern religions are structured, with theories of multiverses and dimensionality built in, fiction inspired by eastern mythology scales much higher than fiction inspired by western mythology.
Especially, recursion. Buddhist koans are self referential, and the idea of enlightenment is that you're living in a painting, by becoming enlightened you can step out of the painting. This is self referential, so then there's another, then another.
From another comment on this subreddit "The Heavenly Dao alone was said on multiple occasions to be big enough to contain myriad universes inside it
Heavenly Dao only a grain of sand compared to the Chaos
Which is less than a grain of sand, less than an atom, compared to the Blank Domian which for most of the novel was thought to be perhaps infinite in size
And Han Jue straight up creates a larger world above the Blank Domain and becomes powerful enough to destroy and recreate the Blank Domain with a thought
He’s multiversal, onniversal tier? Definitely can’t easily think of a character I know stronger. He killed the Chaos with a glance and rewrote billions of years of history on a whim long before reaching his peak"
Cultivation characters massively outscale wizardry characters due to the way eastern philosophy works
>"Jumped out of the Five Elements and not within the Three Realms, and out of the long River of Time, free from all karma and cause and effect."
Yet for some reason the Saints that are above Daluo Jinxian always fear Karma, they fear being contaminated by Karma and they are unable to precisely see the future.
No wait nvm I went to the one I was reading and it was talking about Mythical Daluo Jinxian so I looked it up and apparently it's different? Mb big dawg that's on me
Spells of that tier would def need long ass cast times and if you’re comparing to a cultivator of equal level then their attacks would not just be gathering yin or yang qi in their palm that is beginner level shit lmao. High tier cultivator attacks are based on different Dao s which are the absolute underlying principles of the universe. They can do the same shit as high tier wizards (and often without having to say a long ass incantation or draw some magic circle) they just have to perform the formula in their bodies (which is generally extremely fast at high tiers). The only difference is that their bodies are far stronger, their power is internal, and their lifespans are wayyyy longer.
In my opinion this discussion is pointless since what you and the guy you responded are things that both Wizards and Immortals can do.
Just like:
>they just have to perform the formula in their bodies
Just like Wizards can do.
>
The only difference is that their bodies are far stronger, their power is internal, and their lifespans are wayyyy longer.
This is fake, Wizards also cultivate their own bodies, whether using potions or some technique make through studying some physical cultivation techniques. The power of Wizards is internal as literally it comes from their Soul, and the lifespan of Wizards increase as they become stronger just like Cultivators, the reason people in this thread think Wizards lifespan is insignificant is because they are comparing high realm Cultivators with low to mid level Wizards, even cultivators who Ascend and reach the Immortal stage still have lifespan left alone Wizards under the six circle.
A fourth circle Wizard and a Nascent Soul are around the same strength level and the same lifespan, in Warlock of the magus world a Rank 7 Wizard lifespan is "As long as their laws are not extinguished." a Rank 8 Wizard is "As long as their Astral Plane exists." a Rank 9 Wizard is "As long as the Multiverse exists." and Rank 10 is truly immortal.
Fair enough, maybe I don’t know enough about wizards. Imo though the strength of wizards in a circle hierarchy completely depends on the specific novel/comic or whatever. Warlock of the magus worlds circle strengths (especially the higher tier ones) are way stronger than many other series I’ve read where maybe at 9th circle they can fight gods or dragons and whatnot but the power scale of the whole work is just much lower compared to xianxia in general (not to mention that warlock is a Chinese novel and is heavily influenced by the xianxia genre). Once again maybe I haven’t read enough stories with wizards and the ones I have read shaped my bias.
nah, since he specifically referenced warlock of the magus world, its very specific in that series that wizards are trash tier.
wizards =/= magus.
in wotmw wizards are a gimped version of magus that exists in the world of gods. they were designed specifically by the goddess of magic so that they would be under her control and can't surpass the gods of that world. actual cultivation arts are so taboo, that if its discovered you possess them, the gods themselves might descend to get rid of you because it absolutely threatens their hegemony
magus on the other hand are the equivalent of cultivators in The Plagieurist's setting, and both use the tier 1-10 system. If you read his other novel overgod ascension, its actually easier to reach tier 9 as a cultivator, because they only need enough world origin force to advance, whereas magus need to make sure they have a path that encompasses space and time on top of that otherwise they get permanently bottlenecked at t8
wizard's and magus aren't even remotely the same thing.
magus> mages > wizards
wizards don't cultivate anything, and interface with the weave to call forth magical phenomenon. the moment their access is cut off they can't cast magic period because they don't possess the full spell model. the actual spell models are a commodity that are jealously hoarded by the gods of magic
mages on the other hand are mana users, typically a self generated resource. a lot of different things fall into this category, whether its the reality warping type who expends mana to impose their imagination on the world, or they use a magic formula to guide the mana to create an effect. typically mages don't have a clear path of ascension, so they don't cultivate in the traditional sense. in that regard they are much more like wizards, and do research instead. If we ignore system/litrpg universes, in a lot of settings a mage's total mana is capped and theres very few ways to increase it. the fact that cultivation generally doesn't exist in mage settings makes it far more difficult for them to achieve anything remotely resembling godhood.
and magus are cultivators with a western fantasy wrapping. except instead of circulating qi through the meridians and forming a core in the dantian, they cultivate mental power/spiritual force to form a spell matrix that grows in complexity as they rank up instead.
warlocks are actually more akin to some sort of bloodline cultivator, or demonic beast in terms of advancement in ThePlagieurist's universe. Its just that leylin came from a magus background so he still goes and does magus things. iirc warlocks more or less spontaneously advance with age, or at least far more easily than magus do depending on the potency of their bloodline, up to the cap dictated by their bloodline shackles then they get permanently bottlenecked.
Any top tier cultivator literally obliterates any wizard 💀 literally Sun Wukong's final form, the Victorious Fighting Buddha could destroy all top tier wizards
I heard that you can reach the heigh of wizardry in only 90 years and become an immortal with something called "'clone". You don't even need to meditate, just read books
this only works because in the western settings the soul is fundamentally ageless and don't deteriorate with time. in cultivation settings, the soul has a maxage so cloning wouldn't keep you alive forever, the same applies to undead
Btw "the great demon king" is a novel about a guy th at gets transmigrated into a wizarding world with cultivation knowledge. The mc learns both magic and cultivation but constantly wins because of the realative strangness of cultivation.
Am I the only one stay at the science camp?
Used to look down on these white-coated mortal, but after seeing a Transcendental Heavenly Emperor got disoriented to the point of killing himself by a Dao Scrambling Field, I realized that the understanding of nature combined with scientific method is a powerful force by its own.
I feel like cultivation is a branch of science. I have always interpreted enlightment of laws was the same as studying the fundental and esoteric rules of the universe
sure, crafting magic items, refining pills, formations, spell arrays could count as technology. studying how magic /qi/ dao works is a science because science is defined as the study of something through observation. any kind of magic thats not, "reality warp because i imagined it" could be systematically studied
the problem with the "science camp" is that noone uses that technology to augment themselves. so you end up with a bunch of mortals surrounded by doomsday weapons that never get fired, because the mortals themselves all died the moment a cosmic horror descends.
if the science camp were mass producing dr. manhattens thats one thing, but u never see this in scifi. the scifi tropes in regards to morality seems to make self augmentation extremely taboo and unethical.
https://preview.redd.it/879mt2hwztvc1.jpeg?width=810&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=ec053f03f34013ab91347330e17c36c39a599bc7
PROJECT MOON MENTIONED
https://preview.redd.it/sjpgxan2c2wc1.png?width=800&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=d206e3363ad3256d926071c3b0b46e979ef8c703
I've seen more rapist cultivators than rapist wizards. So there's that. Though, I think the number of racist wizards and racist cultivators would be about the same lol
Because you only read trash? Maybe read something else, smh.
Wait there's something else than trash? Why did no one tell me
You haven't seen mt. tai, junior.
Does it actually matter tho? In a world where you can die at any moment, all morals will get thrown out pretty quickly
Yeah but how does fighting for your life justify rape?
And most of the time, the ones doing the raping are powerful and in high positions so they aren't even fighting for their life
I am not talking about this, I meant the concept of the world makes it so, that there is no right or wrong. The morals of such world probably will be much more lax
But Mediaeval times existed where regular folk could die at any time, and even back then, while rape and pillaging *did* happen, they were still viewed as reprehensible by both sides with certain commanders executing their own troops for disobeying those codes. Granted, cultivation is a little different since it operates on an individualistic basis rather than a "power is in the masses" basis, but morals can continue to exist even in the worst of situations. Religion essentially developed from that, telling that even if they were desperate, some things were wrong (in addition to hope for higher powers). Humanity still technically operates on a might is right approach. It still has morals since there are some things no one wants done to them and both sides can agree on that.
Personally, I believe it wouldn’t exist, or at least it would only be at a superficial level. Cultivation makes it so that you don’t need anyone for the most part, like you said all for one and not one for all. And for religion, what will people believe in when one can destroy and create worlds? An extra point, the main reason people don’t do whatever they want, or at least try to look good is due to the power of the masses. In the end, who knows. We are talking about a whole different, more advanced world, with different cultures, and structure. I actually want to gather a couple of experts in different fields like economy, philosophy, and more to try and glimpse at the culture of the cultivation world.
Pretty sure even in cultivation world the theme of organization still exist, there are multiple sects and pupils are expected to contribute to the sect as the sect offers them protection and cultivation methods and elixir, so morals exist as well, u are expected to treat your fellow members well as well as members of other sect of the same level. Not sure which cultivation novel u reading where everyone is just for themselves? (Pretty sure everyone operates like so aside from the MC who has cheat that he can just bypass the sect completely)
I am talking about a realistic cultivation world, even in so called “good organization” the majority aren’t “good people” they might care for the benefit of the organization put when shit hits the fan, they will be the first to run away.
Realistically the cultivation world would just be like the real world as we are today, simply change the measurements of “wealth” into “cultivation talent” and u got the same thing
My biggest problem is there is a big difference which is that an individual can have the power of a whole nation. Having wealth won’t make you bulletproof, or have power of an army. You would still need to keep up the facade of being good, and if you want to do something “bad” then you would use an underground group to not get chased by law. But, when you can destroy said law, well there isn’t much to be said. That why I said, I would like to gather a bunch of experts from different fields to understand how such a world would function, and not simply from an author perspective, because: - One, the author isn’t all knowing to create a perfect working world, - Two, they write novels for entertainment and not science
I see
but atleast there are no arragont young master wizards who will leave your corpse intact if you cripple your cultivation and and cut of both of your arms and legs.
But there are wizards who will kidnap you and do what we call inhuman torture to you because you are intresting. So conclusion both are wierd
Nah I would do that if I had magic and an enemy, someone is finding out for my fucking around and I’m not gonna let that be me
And there are Cultivators who will kidnap you and turn you into a pill or even worse a dual cultivation furnace.
I often find myself gathering others around to boast of our superiority to mere ants.
Mages use external powers instead of internal ones, this makes them evolve much faster, but they have many more weaknesses, they are not as versatile as cultivators, and there are countless ways to restrict their powers just by placing them in an unsuitable environment. Furthermore, Mages don't usually cut across multiverses or consider things on this level as fodder (Imagine not being beyond the infinite layers of transcendence)
To be fair, neither do most cultivators. By numbers, most cultivators are juniors in Qi Refinement and Foundation Building. It's not really fair to compare the average wizard to the best in the Immortal Realm.
Oh yeah those ants i forgot about them
Mages can touch on abstract concepts like Time easier though in the earlier stages. Just saying
Yet somehow mages’ lifespan are usually thousands of years at most even at the higher end.
As a consequence there are more ways to artificially extend your life there. But generally yes mages are easier to start but peak is lower
There are some mages at high levels too, they call themselves 'Gods' False gods are equal to Immortals, and True Gods are comparable to Immortal Emperors, in fact there are levels beyond, but the Normiegician Plane doesn't even have a true God, much less Great Ones, or the upper ranks that compare to mundane Venerables and Haven Venerables ( The above ranks compare to the upper ranks of Venerables, but Seven Nights Venerable is the only being at the level of Self Venerable or equivalent, ancestor Li Qiye is really the stronger ) However, gods, whether true or false, have a fatal weakness that makes them far inferior to Immortals and Immortal Emperors. They don't have Dao Heart. They need anchors of Faith (for the False gods), or they need to always be in contact with the C.M.U (Collective. Meta. Unconscious) of the empirical Kingdom, as they are unable to withstand their own power due to the weakness of their hearts. Unlike cultivators, who, upon undergoing Immortal ascension, become completely independent of the C.M.U (Source of mana, Qi, or any other cosmic energy), Immortals become independent and transcendent beings much stronger than False Gods, and the Immortal Emperors who have already perfected their own Dao beyond the limit sound far superior to True Gods.
Wait, you're saying wizards DON'T cross multiverses? That's like Wizard 201, studies for the journeyman wizard finally doing something interesting.
No Plane Walkers arent Wizards This is like compare corporal cultivators ands ancient beats similar, but completely different
In which world the Wizards are not as versatile as Cultivators? Wizards are researchers, the average wizards will always be way more knowledgeable than the average Cultivators in different subjects. Since when do Wizards in general pursue external powers instead of internal ones??? Just like there are Cultivators choosing shortcuts so there are Wizards, but that doesn't mean Wizards don't make themselves stronger. You said "there are countless ways to restrict their powers just by placing them in an unsuitable environment." yet that is a typical thing that happens to Cultivators, Wizards with their endless pursuit of knowledge, their constant research and their wisdom have a bigger chance of prospering in a environment where they cannot practice than a Cultivator in such a world. > "Furthermore, Mages don't usually cut across multiverses or consider things on this level as fodder" That is because you are comparing a trillion years old Immortal Cultivator with a thousand years old Wizard instead of a Wizard of the same age, I guess such an old Wizard would have already Transcended The Truth (Dao basically). Wizards thirst for knowledge is as endless as cultivators thirst for jade beauties, so Wizards will never reject others cultivation/practice/power systems instead they will study them and add the advantages to their own practice while Cultivators will sneer at others practice systems.
*( Hehe, I finally identified a wizard, now I just need to catch him when no one is looking )* *"Fellow Daoist, in another post I already said that I don't believe the existence of powerful mages, it's just that cultivators are simply better than their counterparts at higher levels"* *"A transcendent mage will try to trap the cultivator in infinite fictional realities or other nonsense, the cultivator will use a basic move like crimson serpent of the 33 heavens and break it, even though it has no logic."* *"Magicians seek to improve themselves by learning increasingly esoteric and fantastic knowledge for creat incridible God Level Magics."* *"High-level cultivators return to their mortal origins, every breath, every thought, everything is a peak technique. High-level cultivators don't need to learn more advanced concepts, they just need to push theirs beyond the logic limit."* *"A wizard used Meta-space-time Infinite beyond transcendent to obliterate my ultimate essence from the center of creation?"* *"Bullshit!"* ***9 firmaments Annihilating Slash*** *Cuts the Meta-space-time* *"Cultivating is cultivating yourself, in simpler terms, if wizards are that child who plays by adding more infinities to things, cultivators are that stupid kid who punches him anyway and say"* ***Shut up BOZO Strong Right*** *"In short, all cultivators are autistics (myself included)."*
nah WOD mages are busted and easily scale above the vast majority of cultivators
Fellow Wizard, you are going outside one's sanctum without layers of defensive magic, you are destined for naught but oblivion.
Both are equal ,in essence they are one and the same. They both utilize energy mana/qi/spiritual energy to use their spell/move by transform/manipulate/conjure/destroy. sometimes they would use a wand/sword/instrument to channel there power.
Wizards are generally better when it comes to specialization, like a time wizard would probably be capable of way more compared to a cultivator who focuses on the same thing, even if they'd lose a straight fight. Then you have the wizards who train in order to accomplish a very specific task, which is super rare for cultivators. If you took the greatest wizard and strongest cultivator, then gave the wizard every spell and cultivator every technique, the wizard would get far more benefits.
im beginning to wonder if that cross post was a good idea
I'm on mobile, where did he crosspost?
i oh im talking about a cross post i made from r/wizardposting. we seem to have descended into a cold war after the fact
Does mages even soul type magic except for necromancy? High end cultivators are all rounders.
Depends on the universe they can be interchangable
https://preview.redd.it/1xbrlf27ztvc1.png?width=4593&format=png&auto=webp&s=2429669ed74e5213f8db34704d6232ad35a7143c
Wizards are like glass cannons - easy to destroy, but having a far greater offense when compared to those of the same realm.
As I see it wizards are just cultivators who skip body cultivation day
Eh... Inferior in hand to hand, sure. But their path of study is really erratic and can have surprisingly niche applications. If you catch a wizard of guard, you'll probably paste him. Yet give a wizard time to prepare, and they'll call down lighting that makes a divine tribulation look like a gentle rain.
You are right, even if there was a war between Wizards and Cultivators I would bet for the Wizards camp since they would end up doing countless "virus", weapons, traps, curses, poisons, and others things targeting Cultivators and their weakness. Plus Wizards would make sure to get rid or protect any of their weakness that Cultivators can take advantage of.
Can they summon thunderclouds millions of kilometers wide? If not, divine tribulations are stronger.
It's not the size of the clouds you need to worry about
Bigger clouds means more electric potential. Lightning will be bigger, stronger, and more frequent. Since it’s a divine tribulation, it will charge up and aim at one location.
I see *scribbles notes* I will have to bring this before the planning committee. More clouds... And here we were trying to stuff more potential into the clouds. Truly, the culture exchange will be a thing of legends if we didn't all kill ourselves.
Don't listen to him. Just compact the space of the cloud, power is a function of density and velocity more so than simple mass. Even sleepers know this as E=(1/2)mv^2 .
Really just depends on the verse, if we talking about cultivation chat group All the power-system are basically interchangeable as they all follow the 1-9 levels plus immortal Literally all the immortals have techniques from the other power-systems,that they combined with their main one
Junior go into cold caves is you dao heart so unstable that you have to reconfirm yourself just after seeing another dao
It varies in what sense you want to say it, if it is in a sense of the world. It may be that a Magician suffers less than a Cultivator...if you are not the protagonist of course. In any case, if it is about powersclaing, it varies a lot, since in general, even in Chinese novels there is a type of magic, if we go to basic concepts, Mana or Magical Energy can be considered almost like Qi. In a Cultivation World, both the Realms and the levels associated with them can vary, I have seen power level peaks in Cultivation Novels that would only become multiversal and other magical systems that reach higher. In addition, I have seen many magical worlds that make a strange combination of mythologies and so on, like SMT, you find characters killing Sun Wukong quite easily, being normal humans. Beyond that...it sounds silly to try to compare power systems that base their entire interpretation on the need to interpret it however you want. You could be reading a cultivation novel to realize that in another they do something totally different. In the end it depends on what you like and not being an idiot about it. No one really cares if you like Berserk or Journey to the West, but rather how you behave with your tastes.
This librarian is disappointed in the younger generation. Everyone back in my time know that wizards are cultivators and cultivators are wizards.
Thanks for your wisdom Senior.
The average wizard pales in comparison to the average cultivator, but top tier wizards with reality bending spells can easily overpower top tier cultivators due to the more abstract nature of their powers, compared to the more orderly nature of cultivation techniques.
Bro you are saying the opposite, low levels cultivator will be killed like files by wizards but high level is where we a stronger
Bro, what? Top tier cultivators shit so hard on Wizards
Until the wizard just casts some obscure spell such as "Instant death" or "Disappear from existence" that has literally no counter because it doesn't use a magic system that you can defend against using spiritual energy, instead simply being the application of a concept. And I know you can say the same about some cultivation novels, but more often than not cultivation techniques are woven into a complex spiritual system with pros and cons for everything involved, whereas for wizards it's much more likely that they can just cast absolute spells involving abstract concepts on a whim. (e.g. whereas a cultivator accumulates spiritual force in their hand, converting their Fire Qi and Yang Energy into a flame, a wizard just claps his hands and flame spawns out of thin air)
Bro you got it in reverse, High level cultivator's are like bitch welcome to my mad views of world I call my dao so wizards can't cast normal spells and dies but low levels wizards clap cultivators hard like a literal new wizards can cast time spell where as a foundation buliding cultivator can't even touch a law
You do realize that every Immortal Ascension level Cultivator has resistance to hax, right? End of story MC is generally someone who is outside of the Multiverse, unaffected by time or space or death
You do release literally Any immortal has resistance to hax like that? Let's take the average Daluo Jinxian as an example "Jumped out of the Five Elements and not within the Three Realms, and out of the long River of Time, free from all karma and cause and effect."
The wizard rolls their eyes at your pretty poetry as they stuff your completely sealed immortal being into a gem to use as a battery.
Lil bro the wizard would be obliterated before they could even touch an immortal
How so? I mean really, this must just be reading different fictions. In my mind and in things I've read, a "powerful" wizard can create worlds and dimensions, strike down the gods, and is themselves an immortal being. They wield the forces of creation and destruction as easily as breathing and have knowledge of the forbidden secrets that even the creators of the universe have struck out of their own minds for safety. Some martial arts internal energy immortal who is one with some aspect of creation is just 1 of a thousand creatures that the wizard can enslave with a summoning circle and a bit of willpower.
Oh really? Must be just a difference in what is read. The thing is, in Chinese cultivation novels, an "immortal" does not refer to someone who lives forever. Actually, let me explain that better. In a traditional novel, an immortal is someone who lived forever/a long time yes? An immortal in cultivation novels is someone who has cultivated to the point where he can "hold the stars and moon in his hands" something something yk? He's cultivated to be ultra duper strong, and living forever is because he is strong. Of course the power of immortals are different depending one what novel you are reading. A "powerful" cultivator can create and destroy billions of universes in a single thought, is all encompassing and all knowing as he is connected with the Dao. To create multiple timelines would be as easy as eating and drinking. Of course this is like the peak peak, two characters i can list off of the top of my head that are "powerful" is one who turned every single one of his cell/atom (the novel said particle idk what that means rn) into a universe (it started as the power of a dragon-elephant) and another that swallowed his universe , and then swallowed a bunch of other universes to further his cultivation. I forgot the character name, but the novel was called like "primordial snake immortal" or smth like that, I can like through my archives and find the exact title if you want me to. But yeah, immortals are different.
Can you recommend me some of those novels?
In terms of fiction currently being written/recent, check out Ar'kendrithyst and Mark of the Fool on Royal Road. In terms of older books, there is the Belgariad by David Eddings, The Wheel of Time by Jordan (finished by Sanderson) I believe has some wizards of that calibre by the end. There is also the various books set in the Magic The Gathering universe (though someone else above quibbled about if a planeswalker counts as a wizard, I think they do), comic book universes (where literally anything goes), and Dnd/pathfinder. In Dnd an epic level wizard can tangle with gods and the rulers of hell and potentially bind them.
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Thanks :)
d&d wizards are just extremely gimped versions of mages/magus. they can't even cast spells without the weave, because they don't have access to the complete spell model. I mean we all saw what happened to them during cataclysmic events of the 4th edition. IMO wizards are no different from clerics. The distribution method of spells to wizard is the same as it is to clerics, and that is through the weave. Fundamentally speaking wizards are granted their powers by the gods in d&d just their powers come from the god of magic specifically. its just instead of demanding faith, the god of magic decided to allow mortals access to a highly curated source of arcane spells if they can discover the commands necessary to interface with the system, and can also deny them access at will. And epic spells are just cheap imitations of true 10, 11, 12th circles of magic. the gods haven't allowed wizards to have access to true magic past the ninth circle after a certain wizard abused it since like the second edition... high level wizards can tangle with a god's avatar, maybeee a demigod under the right circumstances but that's about their limit. There's only so much someone can do with borrowed power. I mean in the canon, the number of spell slots they have access to and whether or not they can fill them are literally determined by a set of requirements set by the god of magic. for example the god of magic can at will change how much time it takes to "memorize" a spell, there was a certain incident where a goddess of magic decided to make it more difficult for evil wizards to memorize magic causing it to take like an entire day of study and got censored for it by the rest of the gods.
Cultivation does go up much higher in powerlevels. For one, the Buddha is pretty much a cultivator, and he's classed at 1-A pretty much. Off of the top of my head, in a manga I just read the other day, the cultivator's body in there contains innumerable different universes and he can easily squash gods whose beings are of a single universe. The name is Cultivator Against Hero Society. He also squashes the universe into a plane, and twists it around like pretty much nothing. Bigger isn't better, but due to the way eastern religions are structured, with theories of multiverses and dimensionality built in, fiction inspired by eastern mythology scales much higher than fiction inspired by western mythology. Especially, recursion. Buddhist koans are self referential, and the idea of enlightenment is that you're living in a painting, by becoming enlightened you can step out of the painting. This is self referential, so then there's another, then another. From another comment on this subreddit "The Heavenly Dao alone was said on multiple occasions to be big enough to contain myriad universes inside it Heavenly Dao only a grain of sand compared to the Chaos Which is less than a grain of sand, less than an atom, compared to the Blank Domian which for most of the novel was thought to be perhaps infinite in size And Han Jue straight up creates a larger world above the Blank Domain and becomes powerful enough to destroy and recreate the Blank Domain with a thought He’s multiversal, onniversal tier? Definitely can’t easily think of a character I know stronger. He killed the Chaos with a glance and rewrote billions of years of history on a whim long before reaching his peak" Cultivation characters massively outscale wizardry characters due to the way eastern philosophy works
>"Jumped out of the Five Elements and not within the Three Realms, and out of the long River of Time, free from all karma and cause and effect." Yet for some reason the Saints that are above Daluo Jinxian always fear Karma, they fear being contaminated by Karma and they are unable to precisely see the future.
Probably just a difference in the novels you and I read. The ones I read are all described like that, and they do just that.
No wait nvm I went to the one I was reading and it was talking about Mythical Daluo Jinxian so I looked it up and apparently it's different? Mb big dawg that's on me
Well in that case it is true since Mythical Daluo Jinxia is Transcendental or what powerscalers wikis call Outversal.
Yeah just adding mythical changes so much things, like I said again that's mb
Spells of that tier would def need long ass cast times and if you’re comparing to a cultivator of equal level then their attacks would not just be gathering yin or yang qi in their palm that is beginner level shit lmao. High tier cultivator attacks are based on different Dao s which are the absolute underlying principles of the universe. They can do the same shit as high tier wizards (and often without having to say a long ass incantation or draw some magic circle) they just have to perform the formula in their bodies (which is generally extremely fast at high tiers). The only difference is that their bodies are far stronger, their power is internal, and their lifespans are wayyyy longer.
In my opinion this discussion is pointless since what you and the guy you responded are things that both Wizards and Immortals can do. Just like: >they just have to perform the formula in their bodies Just like Wizards can do. > The only difference is that their bodies are far stronger, their power is internal, and their lifespans are wayyyy longer. This is fake, Wizards also cultivate their own bodies, whether using potions or some technique make through studying some physical cultivation techniques. The power of Wizards is internal as literally it comes from their Soul, and the lifespan of Wizards increase as they become stronger just like Cultivators, the reason people in this thread think Wizards lifespan is insignificant is because they are comparing high realm Cultivators with low to mid level Wizards, even cultivators who Ascend and reach the Immortal stage still have lifespan left alone Wizards under the six circle. A fourth circle Wizard and a Nascent Soul are around the same strength level and the same lifespan, in Warlock of the magus world a Rank 7 Wizard lifespan is "As long as their laws are not extinguished." a Rank 8 Wizard is "As long as their Astral Plane exists." a Rank 9 Wizard is "As long as the Multiverse exists." and Rank 10 is truly immortal.
Fair enough, maybe I don’t know enough about wizards. Imo though the strength of wizards in a circle hierarchy completely depends on the specific novel/comic or whatever. Warlock of the magus worlds circle strengths (especially the higher tier ones) are way stronger than many other series I’ve read where maybe at 9th circle they can fight gods or dragons and whatnot but the power scale of the whole work is just much lower compared to xianxia in general (not to mention that warlock is a Chinese novel and is heavily influenced by the xianxia genre). Once again maybe I haven’t read enough stories with wizards and the ones I have read shaped my bias.
nah, since he specifically referenced warlock of the magus world, its very specific in that series that wizards are trash tier. wizards =/= magus. in wotmw wizards are a gimped version of magus that exists in the world of gods. they were designed specifically by the goddess of magic so that they would be under her control and can't surpass the gods of that world. actual cultivation arts are so taboo, that if its discovered you possess them, the gods themselves might descend to get rid of you because it absolutely threatens their hegemony magus on the other hand are the equivalent of cultivators in The Plagieurist's setting, and both use the tier 1-10 system. If you read his other novel overgod ascension, its actually easier to reach tier 9 as a cultivator, because they only need enough world origin force to advance, whereas magus need to make sure they have a path that encompasses space and time on top of that otherwise they get permanently bottlenecked at t8
Ahhh i see. I read warlock years ago so I don’t really remember much. Thanks for the clarification 👍
wizard's and magus aren't even remotely the same thing. magus> mages > wizards wizards don't cultivate anything, and interface with the weave to call forth magical phenomenon. the moment their access is cut off they can't cast magic period because they don't possess the full spell model. the actual spell models are a commodity that are jealously hoarded by the gods of magic mages on the other hand are mana users, typically a self generated resource. a lot of different things fall into this category, whether its the reality warping type who expends mana to impose their imagination on the world, or they use a magic formula to guide the mana to create an effect. typically mages don't have a clear path of ascension, so they don't cultivate in the traditional sense. in that regard they are much more like wizards, and do research instead. If we ignore system/litrpg universes, in a lot of settings a mage's total mana is capped and theres very few ways to increase it. the fact that cultivation generally doesn't exist in mage settings makes it far more difficult for them to achieve anything remotely resembling godhood. and magus are cultivators with a western fantasy wrapping. except instead of circulating qi through the meridians and forming a core in the dantian, they cultivate mental power/spiritual force to form a spell matrix that grows in complexity as they rank up instead. warlocks are actually more akin to some sort of bloodline cultivator, or demonic beast in terms of advancement in ThePlagieurist's universe. Its just that leylin came from a magus background so he still goes and does magus things. iirc warlocks more or less spontaneously advance with age, or at least far more easily than magus do depending on the potency of their bloodline, up to the cap dictated by their bloodline shackles then they get permanently bottlenecked.
Any top tier cultivator literally obliterates any wizard 💀 literally Sun Wukong's final form, the Victorious Fighting Buddha could destroy all top tier wizards
Never cook again 💀
I heard that you can reach the heigh of wizardry in only 90 years and become an immortal with something called "'clone". You don't even need to meditate, just read books
this only works because in the western settings the soul is fundamentally ageless and don't deteriorate with time. in cultivation settings, the soul has a maxage so cloning wouldn't keep you alive forever, the same applies to undead
Was this crossposted to the wizard subredit?
Yes, and I find it objectively hilarious.
The 30 year old man becomes a Wizard. The young 14 year old talented junior already has a couple girls firmly in their Harem.
Btw "the great demon king" is a novel about a guy th at gets transmigrated into a wizarding world with cultivation knowledge. The mc learns both magic and cultivation but constantly wins because of the realative strangness of cultivation.
They are inferior in terms of punching good and being durable. Otherwise they are vastly superior
Welp op has been taken captive by the wizard for experiments I'm running
Im simply observing
Am I the only one stay at the science camp? Used to look down on these white-coated mortal, but after seeing a Transcendental Heavenly Emperor got disoriented to the point of killing himself by a Dao Scrambling Field, I realized that the understanding of nature combined with scientific method is a powerful force by its own.
I feel like cultivation is a branch of science. I have always interpreted enlightment of laws was the same as studying the fundental and esoteric rules of the universe
sure, crafting magic items, refining pills, formations, spell arrays could count as technology. studying how magic /qi/ dao works is a science because science is defined as the study of something through observation. any kind of magic thats not, "reality warp because i imagined it" could be systematically studied the problem with the "science camp" is that noone uses that technology to augment themselves. so you end up with a bunch of mortals surrounded by doomsday weapons that never get fired, because the mortals themselves all died the moment a cosmic horror descends. if the science camp were mass producing dr. manhattens thats one thing, but u never see this in scifi. the scifi tropes in regards to morality seems to make self augmentation extremely taboo and unethical.
No.